PDA

View Full Version : Any comments from Wisden ?


Tehsin
March 4, 2003, 07:49 PM
Just curious - any comments on wisden about kenya's move onto the super sixes ? Any questions about the points system ? Rain rules ?

IF it was Bangladesh (I wish), you canbet that they would have found a way to point out how we lost the matches to WI and SA scoring on.ly 104 and 140 and also how we only got through because NZ did not play. Also, BIG questions would have been posted on the SL victory. This may sound negative to some folks but just think about how we've been treated recently. :)

fwullah
March 5, 2003, 05:24 AM
So it was all the more necessary to show everybody what we are made of, instead what did our players do? they dropped catches, and so lost matches.

Tehsin
March 5, 2003, 03:37 PM
Any comment on Kenya ? They just don't like us, so they ? *sigh*. Oh well, we don't like our cricketers that much either. We try, but they make is so hard.

WisdenVoice
March 6, 2003, 03:01 AM
Just for the record, Wisden are planning something about the lack of a reserve day for rain, that allowed Kenya into the Super Sixes. But comparisons to kenya don't really flatter Bangladesh, do they? I mean, Kenya beat Sri Lanka convincingly and scared Australia a few months ago. When was the last time Bangladesh even did decently against a top side? If any "minnow" deserves a place at the top table, it's Kenya. Tikolo and Odumbe are world-class players, just ask any cricketer from any of the top sides.
Regards,
Dileep Premachandran
Assistant Editor,
Wisden.com/Wisden Asia Cricket
email: verp1986@yahoo.com

Shubho
March 6, 2003, 09:07 AM
Comparisons to Kenya certainly don't flatter Bangladesh. The problem is that Bangladesh are heaped with abuse by your 'esteemed' magazine when they lose, whereas the other minnows get off lightly.

Also, it would help if you focused on the real problems of Bangladesh cricket, and played a constructive role, rather than tell us how bad we are (which we already know) and that we don't belong there...like a typical Indian.

If you read the numerous posts on this board, you will be able to elicit that the root causes for our poor performances are mainly down to mismanagement within the BCB. It would also help if you questioned the ICC on why it hasn't played a more active role in the development of cricket in Bangladesh, rather than leaving us to our own devices.

Finally, quit being a typical Indian, and lamenting the fact that we've become a test playing nation. As a pseudo-journalist, your aim should be to reveal facts, and as a so-called cricket-enthusiast, you should make constructive remarks. And NO, telling us to forfeit our test status is NOT constructive.

[Edited on 6-3-2003 by Shubho]

maninsearch99
March 6, 2003, 09:27 AM
It is a sad reaction to a post from one of the Assistant Editor's of Wisden which was not meant to hurt.
First, Dileep writes sensibly and does not exude any noticeable bias. His articles in Wisden would testify to the fact.
Second, he is a Wisden representative so it does not matter if he is an Indian.
Third, outside participation and comments should be encouraged and not snubbed since they enrich this message board.
Fourth, improving the standard of cricket in Bangladesh is the responsibility of Bangladesh. IT cannot be anyone else's responsibility hence it does not make sense to badmouth Dileep, Wisden or the ICC for their not doing anything for Bangladesh. Helping to improve any individual countries cricket standard is outside their terms of reference.

Overall a rather immature reaction. However, it is understandable given the level of frustration being experienced by all cricket fans in light of the poor show by Bangladesh.

Shubho
March 6, 2003, 11:26 AM
...if you had read any of Dileep's (or his friends') articles on Bangladeshi cricket.

First read the articles, then you can decide whether our outburst is justified or not.

And for your information, nobody is blaming the ICC. However, rather than tell the whole world that giving Bangladesh test status was a mistake, they should have done everything in their power to make sure it didn't turn out to be a complete mess-up.

[Edited on 6-3-2003 by Shubho]

Arnab
March 6, 2003, 01:35 PM
Wow, I didn't expect Dileep to write on this board. Is it really him or some prankster trying to pull our legs? :)

But anyway, I actually agree with most of what ManinSearch99 wrote here (is it you who informed Dileep?).

Shubho, I have always admired your deep understanding of our cricket. But I think the Bangladesh team is to blame for all this fiasco more than anyone else. We have to take responsibilities for our actions. The same Dileep Premachandran might sing our praise later. The point is, it doesn't matter what Dileep/whoever writes about us. Our focus should be playing good cricket.

Welcome to the board, Dileep. Looking forward to more posts from you. :)


Edit: I just read Shubho's first post again and have to say I agree with a lot of what he said, too. In fact, I don't really see anything I can refute in that post. I am waiting for Dileep's response.

[Edited on 6-3-2003 by Arnab]

Sham
March 6, 2003, 03:17 PM
What are these guys on about?

Firstly Dileep, have you ever had anything good to say about Bangladesh cricket? Even when we came back well against the WI in the second Test in December or scored decently well in SA, which Pakistan and SL failed to do in subsequent tours? You take us apart when we do poorly, and you have had pleny of opportunity to do that in recent times, but you are not consistent. CricInfo and BBC criticize us as well, but there is a reason that we are up in arms against Wisden. Yes, Bangladesh cricket is in a state of tatters, but Shubho is absolutely right! Criticism is fine when it is constructive, but Wisden headlines saying "Relieve Bangladesh of its Misery" is just unacceptable! Remind us Dileep how long it took India and NZ to win their first Test match or how long it has been since your country last won a series abroad?

And to Dileep's friend, its sad that you find Shubho's reaction immature. If Dileep is a cricket journalist to be taken seriously, he would find out why Bangladesh with such a huge cricket mad population is failing to produce good cricketers. But no such effort. All Wisden has done, as Shubho pointed out, is scream out to the world how pathetic we are, which everyone knows anyway. Wisden can choose one of two paths. They can choose to report news, in which case, tell us the scores and be done with it. Or Widen can decide that they wish to take pride in their 'in-depth' analysis, in whcih case Dileep leaves much to be desired.

Also, of course it is the responsibility of the ICC to help us develop our cricket! Another typically Indian thing to say! Its okay when the ICC provides coaches to Namibia, Bob Woolmer at that, but when it comes to Bangladesh, lets not help them out, its their responsibility! What crap! Stop the double standards, but then again, I guess I'm asking Indians to be fair to their regional 'little' brothers, which they have proved that they are incapable of being.

We have never snubbed outside comments on this board. (Ask WIFAN, James) We have never discouraged criticism either. We are actually the biggest critics of Bangladeshi cricket. But we try to be constructive, and we expect the same from Wisden. However, Wisden's prefers to mock us rather than be constructive, and as long as Dileep keeps that up, he can forget about winning any popularity contests on this board.


ps. I was listening to Wisden's audio commentary of India v England the other night, and every time and Indian hit a four or took a wicket, the commentators (Indians with put on English accents) were clapping! And then, once the listener started writing in saying the clapping should stop in the commentary box, that it is unprofessional, the commentators claimed that it was the fans outside that were clapping! Its unofficial commentary. Wisden's website itself claims that the commentary is not from the grounds. These are guys sitting in front a TV, probably in India, clapping, and then lying about it! There is a huge difference between three guys clapping and thousands of people cheering! Unless you are deaf or stupid, you can tell the difference.



[Edited on 6-3-2003 by Sham]

Pundit
March 6, 2003, 03:43 PM
So that all those dollar earning, Tendulkar adoring, have-nothing-better-to-cheer-about neophytes end up paying heaps of money behind some useless, one sided, colonial mentality subscription.

Tehsin
March 6, 2003, 03:48 PM
First of all, welcome to the board, would love to have you around. One request though, please don't take every comments personally.

What our players need a little more time to get in the rhythm. We don't have the Tendulkar's or Wasim Akram's to turn around overnight. We were taking the right step towards world cricket couple of year ago but since then, internal problems and politics through us back a few yards.

When Shubho mentions ICC, what he really means is that ICC should have taken a stronger stand with our cricket board, give them an ultimatum as far as performance. We lost all our tests (don't count the rain affected ones) and ODIs against stronger teams - which is not a big deal to us, our problem is the NATURE of those losses. If they lose by 3/4 wickets or 30/40 runs, we'd be ecstatic. That's where ICC need to be strong and pretty much tell BCB if the standards are not improved, BCB will be penalised. It's for the greater good pf cricket.

If you are not aware, BCB has been completely useless over the last couple of years, there is no attempt to setup a steady dose of A team tours for BD national and the A teams. Also, the only time the under 19/17 team is active is when there is a ICC/ACC tournament in place, they have done nothing to setup a regular tour for the age groups. We are lucky that we don't even have to look further, India has the best age group teams in the world, regular tours with them would increase the compatibility of our talented but neglected youth cricketers.

No one can help BD but BD - even our players completely deserted our cause and made an arse (excuse my french) of our cricket. If you have closely followed our cricket over the last 6-10 years, you know that this is not the true potential of our team. We could have sent in A team batsmen who could have scored past 200 in atleast couple of the matches.

All we want is patience while we wait and see if BCB gets a much needed facelift and we get rid of the politicians and bring in cricketers and cricket fans in the board to run our cricket.

Also, it hurts to read some of the reports, can we focus on the players, then Bangladesh ? It's not our fault that those players suddenly forgot that they are not playing cricket anymore (even street cricketers playing with tennis balls can hold on to those kenyan catches).

PS. A good spanking should fix whatever mental block our players are having. :)

Orpheus
March 6, 2003, 04:01 PM
Dileep Kumar is......gAngSTa I respect that man for his innovative style.

Sham, your post script is hillarious :D Oh Man!! LOL
It reminds me of the spanish commentators back in the days, when I didn't have cable tv...
...So instead of ESPN, I watched the 98 WC in Univision. Those commentators use to say..."Batistuta tiene la bola....movimientos adelante.... El golpeo la bola con el pie....GOAAAAAAlLLLLLLLLLLLLL..." A breath taken... Now he realizes that it was just the camera angle, neither a goal nor a superb shot....the ball is like 20 yards away from the goal post....He continues... "Gooooaallllllll faltada.....Error muy grande...por que??....chinga WISE DON Batistua"

Adios!

Orpheus
March 6, 2003, 04:11 PM
Pundit -
Wisden buttering Indian glory

So that all those dollar earning, Tendulkar adoring, have-nothing-better-to-cheer-about neophytes end up paying heaps of money behind some useless, one sided, colonial mentality subscription.

Isn't it free? Jaihok, Goriber pete lathi mara (gorib = BD)... Nahole, amader kew ek chamoch Ghee dito.

Sham
March 6, 2003, 04:17 PM
Oh man, thats funny. Thanks for cheering me up in the middle of a terrible week. (Midterms, this week and next)

The other part I forgot to mention about Wisden's live audio is, they try to create the illusion that they commentating from the ground, so they say stuff like, "and the bowler runs away from us." But the idiots say that from both ends! Hahaha. Of course, if you are watching on tv, the bowler runs away from you every over.

Tehsin bhai, you don't have to apologize for our cricket, especially not to Wisden. We are terrible and since Wisden has adopted the stance that the way to deal with us is to drop us from Test cricket and leave us to our own devices to develop, there is no reason why we should give excuses to Wisden.

Everytime we take the field and play poorly, I feel so terrible. Not just for myself but for the likes of James and WIFAN, who support us and sincerely want us to improve! Wisden surely doesn't want us to improve, not their Indian clan at any rate.

Tehsin
March 6, 2003, 04:29 PM
Your posts sounds very funny - wish I understood what in the heck you wrote (except for batistuta and goal).

Shubho
March 6, 2003, 10:39 PM
Hilarious anecdotes! Certainly relieves some of the tension on this board.

PS Orpheus, your Spanish is darn good...are you fluent?

Orpheus
March 7, 2003, 05:04 AM
I am not fluent in any of my language: English, Bangla, Spanish, Hindi??? -- my language is a "melting pot".

Sadly, my fluency in espanol is 3rd (there is a huge gap between 2&3) eventhough I had to take spanish from 7th-12th grade (6 years). They basically taught us grammer and did not focus on actually speaking the language. (those bastardss!)
I tried to learn it by having some occasional colloquial coversation with some amigos but sadly all the conversation ended up being about ...Grande culos y tetas de bonita chicas... But the interesting thing is spanish chicas use to find it humorous (flirty type) when you bad-mouthed them in spanish... try it sometimes..w/ rhymes:
"tiene grande culo, me gusta mucho"

[Edited on 7-3-2003 by Orpheus]

maninsearch99
March 7, 2003, 08:20 AM
I had put in my comments with full knowledge that I might get battered and expectedly that has happened.
I am once again writing with the apprehension of more brickbats ...... but anyway .....
First, It is difficult to believe that Wisden would allow some of its representatives (belonging to one country) to hijack its agenda. Wisden is a 100+ year old brandname and they do value their brandname a lot. Hence, if Dileep's utterings are found to be contrary to Wisden's position then Dileep will be thrown into oblivion by Wisden in no time. But that has not yet happened. You are welcome to draw your own conclusions from this ..... by the way Dileep has not hired me to clear his name .... I dont even know him. Mine is an attempt in rational thinking.

Second, Bangladesh has been granted test status. And ICC normally do not go about meddling into the cricketing affairs of a test playing country. All test playing nations have gone through bad patches when they have not won tests. England, Australia, West Indies, India, Pakistan, Srilanka, New Zealand have all gone through such a stage one time or the other. If ICC had tried meddling with the cricket administration of any of these countries, the ICC personnel would have been thrown out by the general populace of the country as it is a question of national pride. Hence, it reflects poorly on the national pshyche of Bangladesh if people in Bangladesh asks ICC to meddle. Would Bangladeshis run to the UN because democracy is not functioning smoothly in Bangladesh?

While I expect some more caustic comments I would only request rational thinking to guide the comments rather than emotions. Another observation ..... it is extremely common to hear the phrase "I/we like constructive criticism but this is not so" which essentially means you must coat your adverse comments with a polish. When such is not the case it no longer remains "constructive criticism". However, at times it is better to know the truth bereft of the veneer of diplomacy since the original message may not be deciphered at all.

Signing off with a question ...... any predictions on who will win the world cup 2003?

Tehsin
March 7, 2003, 12:01 PM
No one denies that our cricketers are playing BAD cricket, no point hammering it down needlessly. However, it gets pretty one sided when you shed more ink when the team is wounded while the few goods get completely ignored. It kinda looks uneven. You would miss the good performances as it's never reported, therefore you will miss the whole point of why we get critical of the writings.

It's like this, when India was getting trashed in NZ (5-2), if a columnist only focused on the five losses while you'd had to dig to find about the two wins, how would that make you feel ? You'd question the intentions, right ?

It also doesn't help with remarks like - They don't belong here after only 2 years. World cricket is much more competitive then 15-20 years ago.

When Bangladesh appealed for test status in 1997, ICC decided to take it up and gave BCB (Bangladesh cricket board) a few criteria's to follow over the next few years. Over the next 3 years, they sent in observers to follow the improvements, the infrustructure, the facilities and what not and based on their findings, decided that the country had POTENTIAL to improve in the future.

Only recently, ICC have started sending in people like Woolmer to help the development of cricket in the associate countires, we missed out on those guidence. We are not like India or Pakistan, who have been playing cricket for a long time and have had years of experience from within. Still, both those teams have acclaimed foreign coaches, us on the other hand, could only afford a fielding coach like Trevor Chappel and an inexperienced former (played less then atleast half the players in the team he is coaching) player like Mohsin Kamal. You've got to look at those factor and remind the readers on WHY the team is doing as bad as it is. Not to mention that playing against the big boys, our players have forgotten how to win.

Again ICC is guiding teams like Namibia, Canada while we missed out on those.

In the end however, I could care less if ICC stands next to us while we battle on. The reason this thread was created was to point out the inconsistency in the reporting.

Let's see if this helps - You are an Indian, you can bad mouth your own country and your team as much as you want because you have every right to, you can also suggest that Indian can take a hike. However, if an Australian or a Pakistani does the same - don't you get rattled ? Ask yourself that. Even when you play your worst, wouldn't you feel much better IF the foriegn press doesn't completely run you down ? Think it through and don't get too emotional about it.

Cheers.


P.S. Australia looks the champs so far. India, sri Lanka and NZ would have to improve their game up a few notches to stop the Aussie express.

Sham
March 7, 2003, 01:25 PM
The fact that Wisden has not thrown Dileep into oblivian does not make Dileep fair, it makes Wisden unfair. Like we have said, we don't mind criticism, its their mockery of our team that is offensive.

Secondly, I don't understand why you like to refer to the ICC helping us out as "meddling". Has it hurt Namibian national pride that the ICC has provided them with a coach? Did the Namibian populace kick Woolmer out of the country? If the ICC provides us with some guidance, helps us put together a good first class system, its not going to hurt our national pride. This has nothing to do with national pride. ICC is the governing body of world cricket, and as such, one of its objectives is to spread cricket around the world and help countries improve the standard of their cricket. They do that with other countries, but just because they have granted us Test Status, they have decided that we don't need the help! Thats not quite right is it? Its quite clear that we do.

And lastly, your reference to the UN was funny. The UN gives us a lot of development assistance. The World Bank and the IMF come and demand reforms in our banking sector, what is your point? If you are trying to compare the ICC to the UN, then the ICC can do a lot to help us, just as the UN does. We dont kick the people at Unicef and UNDP out do we?

fwullah
March 8, 2003, 01:02 AM
When Cricinfo posts something like this:

Minnows who had no fear of big fish
Simon Briggs - 6 March 2003

Most people expected the first phase of this tournament to be a massacre of the innocents but Kenya beat South Africa to a place in the Super Sixes, while Canada and Holland both recorded their first World Cup wins. Here we pick a sharp-toothed XI from the bones of the departed minnows.

1. John Davison (Canada) The unknown star of the tournament, Davison stunned the West Indies with a 67-ball hundred - the fastest in World Cup history. He also bowled classic off-spin of the kind that seems to have gone out of fashion at the top level. Could easily pick up a county contract for the summer.

2. Ishwar Maraj (Canada) Davison's mirror-image, a left-handed opener with a painfully constipated style. He set a record of his own while scoring 53 not out from 155 balls against South Africa, the slowest World Cup fifty.

3. Jan-Berry Burger (Namibia) The merry assassin who gave England their first fright, plundering 85 from 86 balls. Afterwards he explained: "That was a very moderate performance, I'm usually more attacking."

4. Fieko Kloppenburg (Holland) He says that people are always joking about his weight and fitness but, in Holland's crunch match against Namibia, he became only the sixth player in one-day international history to score a century and take four wickets in the same game.

5. Mohammad Ashraful (Bangladesh) The youngest centurion in Test history, Ashraful lifted himself above the misery of his team's batting blues with a classy 56 against New Zealand - the only half-century scored by a Bangladeshi in the tournament.

6 Daan van Bunge (Holland) The brightest Dutch prospect, Van Bunge is only 20 but his strokeplay and rough-and-ready leg-breaks unsettled some of the big names in Pool A. During a battling 62 against India, Van Bunge came within one wicket of becoming only the second opener in one-day international history to carry his bat.

7. Tim de Leede (Holland, capt) The old master of Dutch cricket, De Leede has now played for his country on 191 occasions. A flying start to the World Cup, with four for 35 against India and 58 not out against England, put him level with Herschelle Gibbs and Sanath Jayasuriya in the Man of the Tournament standings.

8. Ashish Bagai (Canada) Exquisitely deft wicketkeeper who has a strong claim to being the silkiest gloveman in the tournament. Looked particularly good during Canada's game against South Africa, thanks to a shocking effort from his opposite number, Mark Boucher.

9. Austin Codrington (Canada) Dreadlocked plumber who unlocked Bangladesh's batting in Canada's opening match, taking five for 27. His disciplined spell set the tone for both teams' World Cups.

10. Manjurul Islam (Bangladesh) Left-arm swing bowlers have been the toast of the tournament and, while Manjurul may not be as well known as Chaminda Vaas or Wasim Akram, he is probably the best new-ball bowler among these lesser teams. His best return of the tournament was three for 62 against the West Indies.

11. Rudi van Vuuren (Namibia) Came out of the blocks brilliantly against England, when his round-arm medium-pace claimed five for 43, and his final-ball slog disappeared into the crowd.

© The Electronic Telegraph

Wisden posts something like this:

WORLD CUP 2003
Top of the flops



Inzamam: dropped more than three stone
©AFP






Pollock: where was the dictionary when we needed it?
©Getty Images





Shoaib: no walking the talk
©Getty Images



by Dileep Premachandran
Thursday, March 6, 2003

The World Cup has always thrown up surprises – Cinderella teams and players who came in from the cold to bask in the world’s adulation.
Every four years, it offers up its share of heroes and moments to cherish, just as it reveals others in a less than flattering light. On the biggest stage of all, even the greatest actors sometimes fluff their lines. Here, we take a look at the heroes-turned-villains, the too-low-for-zero moments and the darker side of a World Cup that was full of surprises in the opening stage. And in true Top of the Flops fashion, we give you the litany of woe countdown, starting at number 5…

5 The organisers You need to be a real genius to schedule the event at a time when southern Africa - with the exception of the Cape - is entering the rainy season. As for the carry-over points system for the Super Sixes, it beggars belief. If Australia and India win all their Super Six games, Kenya will be through to the semi-finals on the back of ONE win over a top side (Sri Lanka) and one forfeit (New Zealand). If the carry-over points had been given less weightage (2 points for a win over a fellow qualifier, 1 for every other), each team in the Super Six would have started with an even chance. And that’s not to mention the day-night games (England-Pakistan and India-England) effectively decided by the toss.

4 Shoaib Akhtar One of the most stunning sights at this World Cup was the so-called Rawalpindi Express being derailed by Sachin Tendulkar. Five minutes, and one over, was all it took to shove Shoaib’s big pre-match words emphatically down his throat. He did eventually get his man … after Tendulkar had zoomed to 98 from 75 balls. Six wickets and the fastest ball of the tournament don’t necessarily a great bowler make. And a little humility can sometimes go a long way when you can’t quite walk the walk.

3 Jacques Kallis Came into the World Cup hailed as an allround star, and we presume people weren’t talking about his increasingly bulky figure. Like his team, he left the party early, with 63 runs from four innings (highest score, 33) and 3 for 193 from 41 overs of pedestrian medium-pace. And did we mention that he also dropped Brian Lara before he’d scored a run? For the record, Tim de Leede did better. Unless Kallis spends more time in the gym, the Western Stormers might call him up as replacement prop forward.

2 Inzamam-ul-Haq For someone expected to spearhead Pakistan’s challenge, his World Cup output was a less-than-staggering 19 runs, inclusive of the obligatory comical run-out. Has lost three stone – a little padding round the middle never stopped David Boon, mind you - but Weight Watchers won’t be highlighting that if he continues to bat as though not to the manor born. Handbags with Younis Khan over a disallowed goal in a kickabout only added farce to failure.

1 South Africa If you’re going to shed any tears for the teams knocked out in the opening stages, make sure they’re for the West Indies. The hosts deserve not an ounce of sympathy. Any team that makes a dog’s dinner of defending 306 – rain or no rain, Stephen Fleming and Nathan Astle would have “murdered them”, to paraphrase David Lloyd – and then misreads a Duckworth-Lewis table deserves just tears. For future South African reference, par means even. You’d think they’d know that with the golfing pedigree they have. Their three victories were against Canada, Kenya and Bangladesh … enough said.

And hovering outside the top 5…
Allan Donald was the embodiment of what can happen to a man, however great a player he might have been, when he overstays his welcome, while pundits the world over were choking on their words of wisdom after the early exits of South Africa, Pakistan and West Indies. Some were even foolish enough to tip South Africa as eventual winners, and label Andrew Symonds a prospective flop. As for Bangladesh, we’re not even going there .. for humanitarian reasons.

Dileep Premachandran is assistant editor of Wisden.com in India

Quote:

As for Bangladesh, we’re not even going there .. for humanitarian reasons.


That's the difference.

Sham
March 8, 2003, 01:48 AM
Fahmida, thank you so much for that post. If that doesn't prove our point, nothing will! I am really waiting to hear what Dileep or his crony have to say about that.

Sham
March 8, 2003, 01:54 AM
Also, its funny that Dileep finds it foolish that someone tipped Andrew Symonds as a prospective flop! If I remember correctly, it was Wisden, and probably Dileep himself who named Symonds as Australia's duffer!HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!

zakir
March 8, 2003, 01:57 AM
FIFA (World Footbal Body) is helping South Asain countries (including India, Sri Lanka, and Bangladesh) by providing money, coach, etc.,. I haven't seen that out of "national Pride" FIFA official has been thrown out of India or Sri Lanka. Why it is different for Cricket?

About United Nation, Once I remember Indian Govt. asked help from IMF, because their foreign exchange reserve went down significantly (probably during the first gulf war).

So much for national pride and rational thinking.

Sham
March 11, 2003, 01:58 AM
Where have the Wisden boys gone? Looks like Fahmida's post has silenced them once and for all!

shahid
March 11, 2003, 04:51 AM
Fwullah,

Kenya did not beat SA. They beat SL to get a place in the super-6s ahead of SA.