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Orpheus
March 15, 2003, 03:08 PM
Check this out if you didn't already.. and if you have 15 mins to kill... If you dont have time.. don't bother.. not worth it..

http://www.homeviewbangladesh.com/radiotv/view/?episodeid=astad001

My favorite part : part I - toward the end where they take comments from "future cricketers of BD" .... the kaula

"Their performance is so bad, they can not play also. If they give back foot-ball, they gonna play back foot ball. They just catch."

Second Favorite: Part two - the motu

"Bangladesher shob player Faltu"

The "debate" also made me realize that lack of experience wasn't the problem. Two experienced player - Akram and Rafiq was on the crease when they needed a reachable target against Kenya. But they played senseless..immaturely (doesn't matter how much you score, if you don't win in the end - it doesn't count). So basically there are no difference between youth and experienced as we saw that youth lost the match against Canada and the Experienced lost it against Kenya. I think I am confusing everyone but it's healthy to be confused sometimes....


[Edited on 15-3-2003 by Orpheus]

[Edited on 20-3-2003 by Orpheus]

Ehsan
March 18, 2003, 04:00 PM
Good show!!!

shahid
March 19, 2003, 11:43 PM
Experienced are better than youth. We had only 1 eperienced player in the match against Kenya in Akram and he did his best. Experienced are far better than youth. There is a lot of difference between them. We won a series against Namibia 4-1 despite it being said by our critics that we will lose the series badly.

Ehsan
March 20, 2003, 01:27 AM
Both have different qualities

Ehsan
March 20, 2003, 01:28 AM
We should try mixing up youths and experienced together....

Orpheus
March 20, 2003, 01:05 PM
author : Shahid
Experienced are better than youth. We had only 1 eperienced player in the match against Kenya in Akram and he did his best. Experienced are far better than youth. There is a lot of difference between them. We won a series against Namibia 4-1 despite it being said by our critics that we will lose the series badly.



Take a deep look at the chart attached and then my thought below:

Orpheus
March 20, 2003, 01:06 PM
Most of my messages posted on this board are probably something other than cricket. It was fine until now because most of the posts these days are about everything but cricket. That is sad. Therefore, I will try to keep this board “healthy” as I feel it is my responsibility :). So, I will argue against you Shahid. I say for Bangladesh, experience is not far better than youth. I also expect you to defend your thought with whatever that you defend it with because I spent about an hour just to gather the data from SLOWWW cricinfo server and make it presentable. I just realized now that Tehsin bhai did all those dirty works ahead of me … So I say Foul. Your age is not an excuse as I am only a year older than you are. So if I understand that writing in BIG letters and repeatedly saying the same thing doesn’t prove your point, I expect you to understand the same thing.

The chart speaks for it self. You have to analyze it to understand what’s going on. So I will take two games – Canada and Kenya to show that experience is useless. Why are we all screaming for experience? First you have to understand the term ‘experience’. Experience is something which we gain throughout our lives – so if we are faced with similar situation which we encountered earlier in our life, we can handle it properly and not get overwhelmed by it as we were in this situation earlier. (sorry for my English, read it again if you didn’t understand)

CANADA: When we were at 6-108, targeting 181 (73 runs) with 28 overs and 2 experienced batsmen remaining, Rafiq and especially Khaled Mashud – they should know that it’s time to calm down because required run rate was only 2.6. But instead our experienced batsmen goes out for 1 (KM) and 12 (R). Mashud should be held responsible for this match. Instead he played (what he supposed to play against Canada) against NZ. So what does he win for being the most run scorer for BD in this WC? NOTHING. But had he played sensibly against Canada, Mashud would have been our hero – a savior. I can not blame Alok Kapali for costing this match because he is young and THIS game is his lesson. Someone has to guide him and teach him responsibility. It should have been all the players in red (experienced), they failed.

Kenya: We had 11.5 overs. We were at 6-151. Target: 217. So we needed 66 runs off 11.5 overs (rrr = 5.7) with 3 experienced batsmen – Akram, Mahmud, Rafique – all well-known for hitting huge sixes. We need only one six per over – not 7 sixes. Sadly, three of them were wrapped up for 9-180, both Rafique & Akram falling to consecutive balls. (That just shows Akram gave up even after having 25 balls in hand with 37 to chase – NOT IMPOSSIBLE). He was probably overwhelmed by the thought of scoring about 1.5 runs per ball – not acceptable attitude. Now you, Shahid prove to me why would I choose Akram over Tushar if both of them played 2 games and scored the same amount of runs and average? At least Tushar is still in learning phase – he will learn to mature (hopefully). If we want to teach motu Responsibility, we can but by the time he learns it – time to go to heaven/hell.

With this post (because I already spent too much time on this $hit instead of studying for my chem. Exam), I also want to point to those ppl who think selection is the problem. Brothers - prior to the WC, I don’t remember anyone complaining about the selection. I use to read “this is the best possible combination”. But now those hypocrites are babbling about experience and why we didn’t choose this player and that player. If you look at my chart, you will see that we had 6 experienced batsmen on the team (marked in red), what else do you want?

Conclusion: Combination of youth and experience or more importantly favoring experienced players can only be acceptable when Bangladesh achieves something. When they become like Sri Lanka, then I will accept arguments like – if de silva can play, why can’t nannu. But before that we still should bring in youth youth and more youth to discover players like Kaplai, Ashraful, Mashrafee, Imran (marked in green). Inshallah we will have 11 fatafati players…… and yeah we should stick with them but that’s another thought.

Again, I spent too much time on this – feel like banging my head on the wall. Don’t wanna fail the second exam!! Shboai amar jonno doa korben – jaate ami ekshote eksho pai. Bye

LONG LIVE USA

Orpheus
March 20, 2003, 02:01 PM
didn't realize that the jpg file was that big (~50kb). If you are on 56k modem, you might have to wait awhile before it appears... just be patient!!!

!!Hail the Invincibles - USA!!


[Edited on 20-3-2003 by Orpheus]

rafiq
March 21, 2003, 01:18 AM
thanks for digging up the averages. most remarkable is sumon's big 0. what a campaign for him! how can a player go from being test class to not scoring a run in the world cup?

shahid
March 21, 2003, 06:35 AM
Orpheus.

Why USA here, forget those b@$tards.

About your talk of experienced players, i think Pilot should be dropped and a young wicket keeper thrown in. The fat egg, Bashar, should be drooped after scoring 2 0's. Tushar must stay on. But i want experienced players like Opee, Golla, Minhazul, Akram and Bulbul back. Experience is far better than youth.

FORGET THOSE B@$TARDS USA

Orpheus
March 21, 2003, 07:17 AM
Experience is far better than youth.
Again, as I feared and even mentioned in my previous post - you are repeating your self without any valid reasoning. Repeating your-self does not prove your point. I do agree that Experience is necessary and is better than "youth" but Currently - FOR BANGLADESH - Experience has no value.

But i want experienced players like Opee, Golla, Minhazul, Akram and Bulbul back
I think you are confusing experience with age. OLD doesn't mean experience. If a 17 years old has 100 ODIs as oppose to a 35 years old with 3 ODIs - I believe 17 is the experience and 35 is the "youth".

It is true that Opee and Golla are still young. So why do you want O, G, M, A and B as experience. Whether you are aware of it or not, I think it's because they weren't tried out - that's why. Anyone who did not play....must have done better than our fat egg Bashar. right?

About your talk of experienced players, i think Pilot should be dropped and a young wicket keeper thrown in
NO. I tried to show you that experience is useless for Bangladesh, that doesn't mean I want Pilot to get sacked. Pilot did indeed get the highest runs and he is I believe currently the best wicket keeper we have - not to mention the mental strength. But we should GRADUALLY try to replace him with someone better....

Why USA here, forget those b@$tards
You might be a resident of India but I am a citizen of United States. I believe I have the right to back up my country in war. Besides I might even have to go and fight if there is a shortage of soldiers as I am enrolled in the selective service. So I am just getting puffed up!
I will not tell you to forget India when you come to show some Indian pride when they go to war with our ex-brothers.

shahid
March 22, 2003, 01:16 AM
Again, as I feared and even mentioned in my previous post - you are repeating your self without any valid reasoning. Repeating your-self does not prove your point. I do agree that Experience is necessary and is better than "youth" but Currently - FOR BANGLADESH - Experience has no value

Experience is far better than youth, Even for BD. See what happened to Pak with youth in the series against Australia. When they brought back experienced players, only then they could beat Zimbabwe. We were a good team till 2001 when we had experienced players. We had many close games with the big teams when we had experienced players in our team.

You are blaming experience with just 2 bad games. See what Akram did against Kenya, He nearly took us through to a sensational win over them. It was Pilot, an experienced player, who scored the most runs for us. It was Mahmud, another experienced player, who took the most wickets for us. You don't seem to know the value of experience. Experience is everything and Youth is nothing, even for BD. Youth is nothing as compared to experience. Experienced players are more consistent and youths just have 1 good game and that too very occasionally.

I think you are confusing experience with age. OLD doesn't mean experience. If a 17 years old has 100 ODIs as oppose to a 35 years old with 3 ODIs - I believe 17 is the experience and 35 is the "youth".

I am not confusing experience with age. Even a 17 year-old with 100 ODIs is experience. I included young players like Opee and Golla in the list of experienced players. Age and experience are totally different. I agree with what you said here.

NO. I tried to show you that experience is useless for Bangladesh, that doesn't mean I want Pilot to get sacked. Pilot did indeed get the highest runs and he is I believe currently the best wicket keeper we have - not to mention the mental strength. But we should GRADUALLY try to replace him with someone better....

Experience is everything and it is far better than youth. Youth is nothing. Experience is NOT useless for Bangladesh. When we had experience, we looked threating enough as a team to cause upsets, but with youth, we are nothing at all. Youth has no value at all and it is useless. With youth, we are going nowhere and can't even give teams a scare. See what Kenya are doing with experience. They were just puppies before the World cup and now they are big dogs. If BD had gone with experience, we would have caused atleast 1 upset in this world cup. I was sacking Pilot as a wicket-keeper only due to his dropped catches. If you say that he is our best wicket-keeper then why did he drop so many catches ? I want him to stay in the team as a regular batsmen, If at all someone has to be dropped, it has to be the Fat Egg, Bashar.

Orpheus,

I hope you now understood the true value of experience.

EXPERIENCE IS FAR BETTER THAN YOUTH

[Edited on 22-3-2003 by shahid]

fwullah
March 22, 2003, 01:31 AM
But it all depends whom you are calling experienced.

For example - Mohammad Ashraful is far more experienced at the International stage than Hannan Sarkar, and yet Hannan Sarkar does not fall into youth category if you look at Ashraful's age.

Similarly, Seejan and Rokon are of same age, and yet Rokon is far more experienced than Seejan in terms of playing at the International level.

And when you are speaking of Minhazul, Akram and Bulbul - all of them then I must say that then you would have to drop players like Ashraful and Alok Kapali. Do you want to do that?

fwullah
March 22, 2003, 01:44 AM
Pakistan could not even move into the second round of the World Cup WITH the EXPERIENCED players in the side.

Against Australia, PCB chose their team consisting of all younger players. They chose their team in such a way because against Australia, either Pakistan's experienced or younger players - no matter which team they play, they would always lose to Australia - in what was their mind-field back then.

And against Zimbabwe, they had chosen the experienced players because they knew that losses to Zimbabwe could be BIG at home so they had no choice but to go to the experienced players. But they knew that losses to Australia would mean nothing because of the form of their team and of Australia team.

fwullah
March 22, 2003, 01:51 AM
Only 2 bad games are not the only thing. Why did Bangladesh lose to Kenya 6-1 (before this world cup) even with Akram, Nannu and Bulbul in the side?


You are blaming experience with just 2 bad games


That was because at that time our experienced players had no value.

If the experienced men are so consistent, then why Akram, Bulbul and Nannu's average is not around somewhere even 30? Any player playing at the international level, should have a batting average of at least 30, if not more.

fwullah
March 22, 2003, 01:56 AM
If we include only the experienced players, with no youth, then one day we will see that we have no experienced players in our team.

For this reason, everybody says that experience and youth MUST remain together to bring some balance in the team.

Zobair
March 22, 2003, 02:32 AM
forget youth and forget experience....go by performance....the Australians have done that very well....not age...not experience...not any past glory...simple present performance...and reasonable opportunity...i.e. PROFESSIONALISM in selection in the key.

Shubho
March 22, 2003, 04:11 AM
We should indeed be selecting players on the basis of their current performances, not necessarily on the number of matches they have under their belt.

Akram, Bulbul, Golla, Nannu and others are NOT indispensable. And they aren't legendary players either that we need to make room for them in the squad. We need a balance that works for us.

Orpheus
March 22, 2003, 09:06 AM
Last couple of days, I been sick. Therefore, I was so active on the forum. Now it's really got to the point where my eyes are really burning for looking at the computer monitor. Therefore I will not fetch datas from cricinfo...and waste my energy and time.. besides I got a test for which I haven't started to study yet. So I will keep it short.
pompous
forget youth and forget experience....go by performance....the Australians have done that very well....not age...not experience...not any past glory...simple present performance...and reasonable opportunity...i.e. PROFESSIONALISM in selection in the key.


Yes. This sort of Chapabaji is really easy. Everyone knows this. But I suggest we should not compare other countries with Bangladesh because Bangladesh is a different case. Australia has to go by current performance because Australia can come up with under-15 teams which can beat any test playing nation. Everyone is good. Besides their domestic matches have more quality than international matches. Now lets get back to Bangladesh. Yes - PROFESSIONALISM in selection is the key. For Bangladesh, professionalism in selection IS considering many factors .... including the "value" of experience and the value of youth because we are still the developing underdogs. Pompous why don't you propose to us how we can professionally select our players?? I don't think selecting just based on domestic performance is a good idea because we all know the quality of the bowling attack at that level. Kapali turned out to be a world class despite averaging at lower 20s? in domestic cricket. Wanna give us a formula for professional selection in BD?

Now shahid! What can I tell you? you seemed to have grown (just kidding). Fwuallah pretty much did my job. Besides my intial response to your "experience far better than youth" also seem to answer all of your arguments.

Experience is far better than youth, Even for BD. See what happened to Pak with youth in the series against Australia. When they brought back experienced players, only then they could beat Zimbabwe
In addition to fwullah's comprehensive answer, I would also like to say that Pakistan's win over Zimbabwe wasn't their credit but rather Zimbabwe's fault. I can't accept any country to have much credentials when they get hammered by Kenya. This was no upset like the SL one. As for pakistan, all of their experience is getting sacked after they failed to win their world cup - win against India. But like I said earlier, let's not compare other countries with Bangladesh.

You are blaming experience with just 2 bad games.
I EMPHASIZED on those 2 games because those were the 2 games Bangladesh was supposed to win or should win rather. I suggest you read my first post again.
It was Pilot, an experienced player, who scored the most runs for us. It was Mahmud, another experienced player, who took the most wickets for us. You don't seem to know the value of experience.
And you don't seem to understand the meaning of experience. Like I said Pilot and Mahmud win NOTHING for being the most run getter or the most wicket taker. Because we lost the games we were supposed to win. They are good players - they got it. But you have to understand why we want experience. We don't want experience because they are "good" players but because EXPERIENCE can dug us up from dire situations. They faced this situation before. But as I mentioned previously - both of our "heroes" failed - one against canada and the other against Kenya.

When we had experience, we looked threating enough as a team to cause upsets, but with youth, we are nothing at all.
Really?? I don't know which games you are referring to. But if it is the tour of Zimbabwe and Pakistan ... I must say that it was because back then Habibul Bashar was scoring 50s consistently (and he was less experienced back then). Beside it was young Tushar Imran against pak who actually made us look good. Most contributors from those matches are Alshariar, Habibul Bashar, Tushar Imran and Sanuar Hossain - the ones that were chosen for this WC.

I hope you now understood the true value of experience.
Yes I do understand it. Therfore, I am sticking to my conclusion from my first post.

Have a Good Day/Night!

[Edited on 22-3-2003 by Orpheus]

fwullah
March 22, 2003, 12:06 PM
I hope what you meant from this sentence



one against canada and the other against Kenya.
(Could not resist myself from putting yet another quote) :cool:

is that Pilot failed with the bat against Canada and Sujon also failed with the bat against Kenya.

I would also like to add that Pilot could not also bat well - as he always does (like scoring a 20 at least) against Kenya too. Besides Pilot dropping catches as the keeper, (however) Sujon did well with the ball. In fact, Sujon did so well that if catches had been caught off Sujon's bowling, then Bangladesh had a fair chance to win the match. But in the end, it was also Sujon who did not field well - that is, although he did not drop catches vs Kenya, his ground fielding was not as good as his bowling.

Orpheus
March 22, 2003, 08:41 PM
Yes, I do mean that they failed with the BAT. I wasn't concentrating much on the bowling and fielding because our main failure was batting.
Like you mentioned, Pilot should also be held reponsible for the game against Kenya but the thing is he batted at number 3 in that match. Therefore I will not "blame" Mashud for costing Kenya because if we do, then we should blame the whole top order for losing every games. (they should be but)
My point is to show that experience was useless when we were at DIRE situation. They couldn't dig us up from the hole to win the match. (we were not yet in the whole when Mashud was batting)

Now, if we bowled second, THEN I would have blamed Mashud and not Mahmud. Anyways, I shouldn't dig into it too much - cuz then I will fall into the hole - and I am definitely not experienced to get up from there!

Tehsin
March 22, 2003, 11:31 PM
Pilot's captaincy blew the match but then again - the others weren't doing much.

Akram ke dosh debona - he was the only one doing anyting and it's sad that he gave his wicket away when we were only a few runs away and we know that Akram could have done it against the Kenyan bowling.

As far as experience vs youth - a good combination does not hurt. We sent the BEST team we had. Kenyan's have done well in their third world cup. With their luck, we could probably make it to the super league or even the semi's in OUR THIRD (2007 in West Indies) world cup. Forget performance, Bangladesh is better then Kenya - don't understand why we flopped the way we did but ..... Everyone else do have their own opinion and I do respect that but to me - we played WELL below our TRUE potential. :)

Ehsan
March 23, 2003, 12:49 AM
You know what guys??? Have we ever realized the pressure and difficulty our players are facing on the field??? Its very easy to say that they should have done this, they should have done that but its preety hard when you apply it to yourselves.... Its always easy to say but hard to do!!!!

[Edited on 23-3-2003 by ehsan]

shahid
March 23, 2003, 01:49 AM
Fwullah,

No one expected BD to beat Kenya. No one was giving us any hope beyond Canada. It was very surprising that the match was a close match. Kenya were rated way higher than us.

shahid
March 23, 2003, 02:03 AM
For Orpheus,

I EMPHASIZED on those 2 games because those were the 2 games Bangladesh was supposed to win or should win rather. I suggest you read my first post again.

BD was supposed to win only against Canada. No one gave us a chance of beating Kenya. Even fwullah didn't give us of that. We were only let down in the match against Canada where we should have won. We bowled and fielded well but our batting let us down then. I was surprised that we had a close game against Kenya.

In addition to fwullah's comprehensive answer, I would also like to say that Pakistan's win over Zimbabwe wasn't their credit but rather Zimbabwe's fault. I can't accept any country to have much credentials when they get hammered by Kenya. This was no upset like the SL one. As for pakistan, all of their experience is getting sacked after they failed to win their world cup - win against India. But like I said earlier, let's not compare other countries with Bangladesh.


Kenya are a much improved team now. It is all happening because they have experience. Experience can make even a cat as dangerous tigers. No one saw any threat from Kenya but they made it to the semi-finals and ultimately began to dream of winning the world cup. Another thing which i found surprising about them was that they could beat SL and Zim more comfortably than BD and Canada. They totally crushed Zim by bowling them out for 133 and smashing the runs in 26 overs, something which Zim should have done to Kenya. Zims lost to Pak first badly and then lost to Kenya in the WC. Due to these, people are now saying that Zim should lose test status. About Pak, from the series which they had against Aus, made me realize the value of experience. even that Pak-Aus series couldn't wake up BD selectors. Had Pak gone with experience, they would have lost it 2-0 or 2-1 instead of 3-0. If BD goes with experience, we can beat SA 2-0 in tests.

Orpheus
March 23, 2003, 02:48 AM
Ehsan -
You know what guys??? Have we ever realized the pressure and difficulty our players are facing on the field??? Its very easy to say that they should have done this, they should have done that but its preety hard when you apply it to yourselves.... Its always easy to say but hard to do!!!!
sigh ... and your point is??? If they can't handle the pressure, they shouldn't be playing cricket. I am very aware that it's easy to say and hard to do... that's why I am not there representing my country. Only the "exceptionals" belong there.
Anyways, Experience should have the quality to play under pressure.... otherwise what's the use of it?? Yup exactly my point.

Shahid: Now you are making fool out of yourself. You don't make much sense. There is no point of arguing with a guy who writes:
If BD goes with experience, we can beat SA 2-0 in tests.
I regret that I wasted my time on you.

Another thing: Supppose I give up! and I agree with you that without experience, we are nothing:
I would really like to see the experienced team which will beat SA 2-0 in tests. Please name the 11 players.... I would really love to know.... who these players are... and whom you consider experience.


[Edited on 23-3-2003 by Orpheus]

Ehsan
March 23, 2003, 05:05 PM
Well it seems your point is rite Orpheus

Ehsan
March 23, 2003, 05:16 PM
Tell me something "orpheus" why the hell is US want to conquer Iraq? Just for the sake of oil isn't it... They are killing many civilinans: mad: ... Now , in this situation will you take the side of these dirty americans instead of ur Muslim brothers who are getting slaughtered??? Tell me if someone tells you to leave your country, will you leave??? Obviously not then how come a president of a country can leave. Look at this foolish word of Bush " We want to end the war peacefully". How the hell can someone end a war peacefully already hundreds of people are being killed in Iraq. Even these people are puuting American Intelligence in every Mosque in Toronto , should be in America too. So, don't wanna say anything more...who knows there might be a spy here too?

shahid
March 24, 2003, 12:21 AM
Orpheus,

My team would be:

Opee
Golla
Ashraful
Kapali
Bulbul
Akram
Pilot
Minhazul
Mahmud
Durjoy
Talha.

The team should be a mix of experience and youth. You are confusing this SA team with the strong SA team. SA would be very weak and low on confidence after the world cup. They are a much weakened side now. I am saying that BD would beat SA 2-0 in tests if BD goes with experience and it is realistic too. Holland also beat SA comfortably in an unofficial match.

Ehsan
March 24, 2003, 12:25 AM
MY TEAM WOULD BE THE SAME AS SHAHID"S BUT WOULD DO A LITTLE CHANGE IN THAT LIKE TAKING OUT BULBUL AND MINHAZUL AND REPLACING THEM WITH AL-SHARIAR / SHARIAR HOSSAIN AND MASHRAFE

Tehsin
March 24, 2003, 01:11 AM
Would appreciate it if the war was not discussed here. There are millions of other boards.

I would love to believe Shahid and it does sound good but unfortunately, no matter how DOWN Sa is, we won't be able to beat them 2-0. We will be lucky if we can drag the game to the 3/4th day.

Also, no matter who you play, they are no match for South Africa. Kenya, YES, Canada, definitely. But not South Africa.

We had a troubled Zimbabwe team only few months ago and we couldn't even put a scratch on them.

In 1999, we barely beat a weak team like Scotland and a repeat of the Pakistan game is so far away (based on what we saw in 2003) that one feels like giving up on BD cricket.

The point is, we don't have the right fix (players/infrastructure/coach/wickets) to beat Kenya consistently - forget SA or any other. Saying that, if those teams play realy really bad and we get lucky like kenya, we might pull an upset in the one dayers but that's highly unlikely. We dont have any professional players and we definitely don't have a brave soul in the entire team.