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Spitfire_x86
February 20, 2006, 03:23 PM
Recently many Javed Omar fans have been complaining a lot about his exclusion from ODI XI. After total batting failure of 1st ODI, their voice has become louder. JO fans beleive that he's one of the most reliable batsman in our team, who is capable of stopping batting collapses. In popular opinion, Khaled Mashud is more reliable with bat than our specialist batsmen and Ashraful is the most unreliable batsman, closely followed by Bashar. Here's some stats which will answer the question, whether these popular beliefs are really true or not.

http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/6457/chart5rc.png
(unbeaten inningses were not taken into account)

According to stats, Khaled Mashud and Javed have highest percentage of below 20 scores. They also have very high percentage of single digit scores like other BD batsmen. These stats are completely opposite of the popular belief. The only popular beleif which seems to be quite true is Ashraful's unreliability. He has the 3rd highest percentage of below 20 scores and practically the highest percentage of single digit scores (considering Aftab played much fewer inningses than him). According to stats, Bashar's "unreliablity" is also very unfounded. He has the second lowest percentage of below 20 and single digit scores.

From stats, Rajin is the most reliable batsman, but (except Aftab) everybody has played more inningses than him. And if you take Bashar's high number of innings count into account (2nd highest, 2.29 times more than Rajin), then Bashar can be called the most reliable batsman of BD in ODI.


Bottom line:

No BD batsman can play ODI
Javed is NOT reliable. He is not a collapse stopper, but a collapse starter just like any other BD batsman.
Pilot is NOT that reliable. He can also be a part of batting collapse, like he was in today's match.

Edited on, February 20, 2006, 11:25 PM GMT, by Spitfire_x86.

AsifTheManRahman
February 20, 2006, 03:25 PM
No BD batsman can play ODI


heh. e r notun ki?

Beamer
February 20, 2006, 03:28 PM
Great post spitfire. Hope it will bring senses in people and overcome some misplaced myths.

Rubu
February 20, 2006, 03:31 PM
Good Job Spitfire. Sometime I feel like all the Bd players need to take a extended class on being responsible and controling urgers.

babubangla
February 20, 2006, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by Spitfire_x86
(unbeaten inningses were not taken into account)


Could you please explain the justification for excluding the unbeaten innings?
If a player single handedly fights against a collapse, he would either score a reasonably high score compare to his teammates or he would be the last man still fighting until he runs out of partners. I thought exclusion of unbeaten innings contradicts the original purpose of your post.

When analyzing the performance against batting collapse, it is vital to take unbeaten innings into consideration. You may see a batman’s score is below 20 which may be solely due running out of partners.

This is just my initial impression after reading your nice post. You may have some sound reasoning for using such methodology and I thought it would be interesting to know.

pagol-chagol
February 20, 2006, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by babubangla
Originally posted by Spitfire_x86
(unbeaten inningses were not taken into account)


Could you please explain the justification for excluding the unbeaten innings?
If a player single handedly fights against a collapse, he would either score a reasonably high score compare to his teammates or he would be the last man still fighting until he runs out of partners. I thought exclusion of unbeaten innings contradicts the original purpose of your post.

When analyzing the performance against batting collapse, it is vital to take unbeaten innings into consideration. You may see a batman’s score is below 20 which may be solely due running out of partners.

This is just my initial impression after reading your nice post. You may have some sound reasoning for using such methodology and I thought it would be interesting to know.

Nice Research SpitFire. Please include the not outs in the 20+ category regardlesso of what they scored and then do the same table. Good suggestion BabuBangla. We got some smart people here. If only our batsmen were this smart.

Flipper
February 20, 2006, 04:08 PM
Babubangla, I think our batsman don't have enough not out innings anyway to make a difference here.

I thought Spitfire excluded all the not out innings that are below 20. It was a good analysis, inded. The only drawback would be if you stictly consider recent form, then Pilot would be where Rajin is.

pagol-chagol
February 20, 2006, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by Flipper
Babubangla, I think our batsman don't have enough not out innings anyway to make a difference here.

I thought Spitfire excluded all the not out innings that are below 20. It was a good analysis, inded. The only drawback would be if you stictly consider recent form, then Pilot would be where Rajin is.

Actually, it'll make significant difference with Pilot. Even before last year.

Flipper
February 20, 2006, 04:27 PM
pagol-chagol

I think he took all the innings that are below 20. Then, He excluded all the scores are below 20 and not out (as they could have led to a higher score). He was trying to figure out what percent of the innings are below 20, not what percent are above 20.

May be Spitfire can explain if that's what it is!

Spitfire_x86
February 20, 2006, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by babubangla
Could you please explain the justification for excluding the unbeaten innings?
If a player single handedly fights against a collapse, he would either score a reasonably high score compare to his teammates or he would be the last man still fighting until he runs out of partners. I thought exclusion of unbeaten innings contradicts the original purpose of your post.

When analyzing the performance against batting collapse, it is vital to take unbeaten innings into consideration. You may see a batman’s score is below 20 which may be solely due running out of partners.
If these batsmen really had significant number of unbeaten 20+ scores, then their career average would speak for themselves. But all of them average around 20. Except Pilot, all of them are top order batsmen, who has very few unbeaten 20+ innings. Most of the times, pilot comes after fall of 5th wicket. So he has much higher chance of scoring an unbeaten innnings than the others. If I took unbeaten inningses into account, it might have been unfair to other batsmen. Here's the number of unbeaten 20+ inningses of these batsmen (in bracket, number of fifties among these unbeaten scores)

jo - 3 (2)
pilot - 12 (4)
bashar - 2 (0)
aftab - 2 (1)
rajin - 0 (0)
alok - 2 (1)
ash - 1 (1)

Pilot's total innings count also increases to 95 if we take all unbeaten inningses into account. So even after taking unbeaten inningses into account, my observation remains true. (my remark about Pilot was not "completely unreliable", but not as "reliable" as people like to think)

If their average varied significantly, then I would consider taking unbeaten scores and career average into acccount. For example, Sehwag and Tendulkar has nearly equal percentage of below 20 scores (without taking unbeaten inningses into account). But since Sehwag averages 32 and Tendulkar averages 44, their average becomes an important factor for judging their reliability.

Spitfire_x86
February 20, 2006, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by Flipper
pagol-chagol

I think he took all the innings that are below 20. Then, He excluded all the scores are below 20 and not out (as they could have led to a higher score). He was trying to figure out what percent of the innings are below 20, not what percent are above 20.
First criteria was: dissmissed = true
Second criteria was: runs from 0 to 19

So all unbeaten scores were left out, regardless of score.

mshakir56
February 20, 2006, 05:13 PM
From my prespective, Aftab Ahmed seems to be the most repectable batsman.

Spitfire_x86
February 20, 2006, 06:08 PM
babubangla, your chart's doesn't show. It asks for username/password from https://webspace.utexas.edu

Fortuner
February 20, 2006, 06:49 PM
Good post...dude..keep it up...

Sham
February 20, 2006, 08:30 PM
Spitfire, a very revealing post! The stats on Golla don't surprise me at all but Pilot's ones do. It shows how our perceptions can have such little grounding on reality.

But I couldnt help but feel depressed at reading the stats. There isnt one damn batsman in our team who is more likely than not to score over 20 in any given match! With most of them, there is over a 70 percent chance that they will score less than 20! How depressing is that?

The problem is, our batsmen dont know how to build one-day innings. Either they go into their shells and don't score. Or they try to blast their way around, which never works for our guys. We haven't yet understood how to build innings by taking singles and rotating the strike, punishing the bad balls and treating the good balls with respect.

Our approach to batting in ODIs can be summarized in one word: premeditation! Either they've decided to block the ball even before its bowled or they've decided to whack it as hard as possible before its bowled. Nobody cares to wait and see what the ball actually is.

Whenever I think of good ODI innings by BD batsmen, three come to mind. The first was Bulbul's 69 against India in the Independence Cup in January 1998. Bangladesh was 22 for 4 and he helped Bangladesh to 190 all out by playing an absolutely perfect rearguard innings that was watchful and attacking at the same time. Perhaps its appropriate to mention that he was given great support by none other than Chacha who scored 40 odd.

The next is Kapali's 89 not out against the Windies in Dhaka in December 2002 in a match in which Ashraful, Sanwar, Tushar, Pilot, Durjoy and Rafique combined scored 29 runs! Again, watchful when he needed to be, lots of singles and absolutely brutal on any bad ball! (Kapali's 70 odd against South Africa a couple of months later was some innings as well)

The last is of course Ashraful's 100 against the Aussies at Cardiff but I dont think anything more needs to be said about that one!

Aftab's 80 odd against Zimbabwe last year was probably just as memorable, but I wouldnt put that in the same category just because its not against the same class of opposition.

What I'm trying to get at is in over 100 ODIs, I can pretty much count the number of times our batsmen have played an innings which is how a one-day innings should be played. That is quite ridiculous. Are they not learning anything from the Husseys and Kaifs? ODI batting is all about pacing an innings, our players are absolutely clueless on how to go about it!

thebest
February 20, 2006, 08:37 PM
Dear Sham,
you could include also Akram's 68 in ICC trophy againest Netharland in the catagory after we were 22/4 chasing 140+ in D/L. Other than none

Sham
February 20, 2006, 08:38 PM
Yeah, a very important innings that took us into the world cup, but again, not against the same class of opposition!

babubangla
February 20, 2006, 10:22 PM
There is something which might provide further insight and supplement Spitfire’s analysis.

If we define batting collapse as the incidence where our team was restricted below 150 in 50-over matches, then we will find 13 such incidents in recent times since the our Australia Tour in 2003. The following is the list of batting collapses (150<) since the 2003 Australia Tour:
I-01: 118 Runs 1st ODI against SL in BD 2005/06 at Bogra
I-02: 108 Runs 3rd ODI against SL in SL 2005/06 at Colombo
I-03: 139 Runs NW Series against Aus in Eng 2005 at Manchester
I-04: 146 Runs 2nd ODI against NZ in BD 2004/05 at Dhaka
I-05: 86 Runs 1st ODI against NZ in BD 2004/05 at Chittagong
I-06: 131 Runs ICC KO against WI in Eng 2004 at Southampton
I-07: 93 Runs ICC KO against SA in Eng 2004 at Birmingham
I-08: 144 Runs 1st ODI against WI in WI 2004 at Kingstown
I-09: 134 Runs 2nd ODI against Eng in BD 2003/04 at Dhaka
I-10: 143 Runs 1st ODI against Eng in BD 2003/04 at Chittagong
I-11: 142 Runs 3rd ODI against Aus in Aus 2003 at Darwin
I-12: 147 Runs 2nd ODI against Aus in Aus 2003 at Cairns
I-13: 105 Runs, 1st ODI against Aus in Aus 2003 at Cairns

Performance of the Players studied in Spitfire’s analysis in these 13 matches is as follows
<img src=https://webspace.utexas.edu/sk2344/www/collapse_01.bmp> Red-marked score indicate Not-Out innings.
Not all players played in all of these batting-collapsed matches. If we take consider the percentage of run contributed by the player to team’s total, we will get the following picture:
<img src=https://webspace.utexas.edu/sk2344/www/collapse_02.bmp> For example, Ashraful played 9 out of these 13 batting-collapsed matches and scored 116 runs. Total team runs in these specific 9 matches were 1107. So, Ashraful contributed 10.48% of his team’s total runs in the incidence of a batting collapse. As we see from the chart, Alok, Rajin and Pilot are the most reliable contributor during batting collapse. Where as Habibul Bashar almost always failed to stand tall in the face of batting collapse. His contribution is just 5.32% in the 10 batting-collapsed matches he played.

This can not be taken as the sole measurement of consistency or reliability of the player. But it certainly shows how these players perform in the face of a collapse. As we see, our team can not reply upon Habibul Bashar to come to the rescue. Even though his performance is the best among BD players, but he almost always becomes part of the collapse, instead of fighting against it.

Thanks Spitfire for his amazing analysis and for introducing this nice topic in the forum.

babubangla
February 20, 2006, 10:24 PM
Originally posted by Spitfire_x86
babubangla, your chart's doesn't show. It asks for username/password from https://webspace.utexas.edu

I've just fixed the porblem and posted the message as a new post.

RazabQ
February 20, 2006, 10:25 PM
Problem is we have, asides from Pilot, no nudgers or workers of the ball. If you want to find the ultimate example of a worker of the ball - watch Lara. Though he gets kudos for his flamboyance, Lara's supple wrists and ligtning speed hand eye coordination have combined to create a quite uncanny knack for working the ball where the fielder ain't.

If you don't believe me, go and watch some Lara innings in entirety - not just the highlights.

Dhakablues
February 20, 2006, 10:53 PM
Bottomline: We dont have any world class players. Ash-r-fool, Bash-ar, Golla and Kopla-i .all speaks for themselves.

Solution: Play more A team matches against other nations, Play more 4 day matches, Drop this pool concept as its rather giving the players a complacency and for heavens sake please get a bouncy pitch. We will never learn to play anything with batting flat pitches.

Ahmed_B
February 20, 2006, 10:56 PM
Originally posted by Spitfire_x86
According to stats, Khaled Mashud and Javed have highest percentage of below 20 scores. They also have very high percentage of single digit scores like other BD batsmen. These stats are completely opposite of the popular belief.
OK lets show a small bug in this sort of career-stats based assesments. I want to remind you that you are comparing all-time career-averages of some senior members (JO/Pilot) with fewer matches played by juniors. Players like Pilot or JO had pretty lower averages during the early time of their Test/ODI career which they have improved a lot during the recent times. I would say what matters most for the current team ... is how good their averages are these days.

Now are you wondering how much difference it would make if we forget the early innings of their career and consider the recent ones? As far as my observation goes... this factor matters a lot. I havn't done any stats search on JO yet.. but here is one done on Pilot on June'05:About Pilot (http://banglacricket.com/alochona/viewthread.php?tid=13163)

Spitfire_x86
February 20, 2006, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by babubangla
For example, Ashraful played 9 out of these 13 batting-collapsed matches and scored 116 runs. Total team runs in these specific 9 matches were 1107. So, Ashraful contributed 10.48% of his team’s total runs in the incidence of a batting collapse. As we see from the chart, Alok, Rajin and Pilot are the most reliable contributor during batting collapse. Where as Habibul Bashar almost always failed to stand tall in the face of batting collapse. His contribution is just 5.32% in the 10 batting-collapsed matches he played.
Ashraful's 58 against Australia makes the half of his 116, which came before the collapse started. Most of the times Bashar batted at #3, so he was always one of the first to go in case of a batting collapse.

rafiq
February 20, 2006, 11:43 PM
Sham, I'd like to also offer the 90odd Ashraful scored against England last summer soon after the 100 against Australia. Weren't you at the ground? I think Vaughn described it as "master class". Halfway through the innings, Bangladesh were improbably still in the chase even though they were set a near 300 target.

The last set of statistics on this thread proves that Bashar has no room to talk. In fact, these batsmen may show one other trait - that of groupthink. When a couple do well, the rest follow and contribute towards decent scores. When one or two don't do well, the rest give up and we have a collapse. Now, can we read babubangla's analysis to mean that Ashraful, Javed, Aftab and Habibul all have an affinity to be associated with a collapse, and are therefore the most likely reasons for a collapse?

I don't know what you can really do with any of this analysis, since you can rotate the 15 member squad and we will get exactly the same behavior and results. The one thing we can conclude is that neither Alok Kapali nor Rana have anything to do with this, their role on the team is pretty minimal by this point. Also, I would have liked to see Chacha in the analysis to see what his contributions to collapses have been.

Pundit
February 21, 2006, 01:02 AM
Sham is back.

Long live Sham.

fab
February 21, 2006, 01:17 AM
Excellent thread!
Originally posted by Spitfire_x86
According to stats, Khaled Mashud and Javed have highest percentage of below 20 scores. They also have very high percentage of single digit scores like other BD batsmen. These stats are completely opposite of the popular belief.
..
Javed is NOT reliable. He is not a collapse stopper, but a collapse starter just like any other BD batsman.
Pilot is NOT that reliable. He can also be a part of batting collapse, like he was in today's match.

Javed's role is not to score runs but to play out balls. So in your analysis it would have been interesting to see the average or median balls faced by each player for each run range.

Spitfire_x86
February 21, 2006, 01:56 AM
http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/8287/pilot1dh.png

My opinion still remains largely true. He's also very vulnerable like other BD batsmen, but when he got past 20, he made some good scores (including some unbeaten one). He scored six 50s during this period, which includes two unbeaten 50s. It helped him to average better than other BD batsmen of this period (25.86 from 61 inningses). The charts and his average proves that he is occasionally more reliable than our specialist batsmen, but not as dependable as people like to think.

Edited on, February 24, 2006, 2:27 AM GMT, by Spitfire_x86.

Spitfire_x86
February 21, 2006, 03:26 AM
All of our ODI batsmen average nearly the same, and strike rate alone is not enough to find out who is the best ODI batsman. I made strike rate chart of our batsmen in the 50+ inningses they've played. It can give a fairly good idea about who is a better ODI batsman.

http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/1179/odi50psr2da.png

This chart further confirms that Javed is the worst ODI batsman in our side. When an ODI opener is set and bats for a long period, but can't manage a strike rate better than 64, he is definately not a good ODI batsman. Ashraful and Aftab are the only batsmen among the listed ones who has won matches for us with bat. They are at the 1st and 3rd postion in the chart. Kapali's big scores have always come in losing cause. But his impressive strike rate in 50+ scores might be the reason for many fans' and selectors' faith in him. Pilot's strike rate isn't that impressive, but he often plays the anchor role and in last few years his ODI batting average has also somewhat better than other BD batsmen. So he is also one of the better ODI batsmen in our side, unlike Bashar or Rajin.

Edited on, February 21, 2006, 8:35 AM GMT, by Spitfire_x86.

Shafin
February 21, 2006, 03:29 AM
Rafiq and Athar ali khan are the other two that won matches for me.Rafiq won 2 maches for us with bat

Spitfire_x86
February 21, 2006, 03:36 AM
Yes, but I said "among the listed ones". Athar is retired and Rafique wasn't considered for the list since he's not a batsman or a true allrounder.

fy288
February 21, 2006, 07:06 AM
Great post guys!!!

But there is something about Pilot and Javed which makes people like me believe they are very reliable and solid batsmen although the statistics prove this to be incorrect, it must be because they work the ball rather than just blasting out of the ground, this maybe the reason why many like myself believe the myths.

Anyway Javed has been included in to the next ODI match, so i am pleased. I bet due to the inclusion of Javed if BD bat BD will score above 200 !?? The next match will therefore determine whether javed is factor or not!!!

Tigers_eye
February 21, 2006, 08:45 AM
Nice Stats guys but I have few questions of my own.
1. What is a collapse? How do you define it?
2. Openers vs 5 down batsman? Aren't we comparing apples vs oranges here?

Beside stats there are many other conditions game by game one has to consider before concluding JO is collapse starter, JO is the most reliable/unreliable batsman. My two cents is it would do a big favor to the team, bringing Mushfique instead of Ash/Bashar. Then everyone would know they are not permanent in the team.

SL didn't beat us. Our batsmen beat themselves with silly shots. And we all know who are the masters of silly shots.

Edited on, February 21, 2006, 1:47 PM GMT, by Cats_eye.

Spitfire_x86
February 21, 2006, 10:08 AM
(to Cat's Eye)

1. It's hard to give an exact defination of collapse. I didn't do any "collapse oriented" stats, I focused on total number of single digit and below 20 scores since my target was to find out who is more reliable batsman in general. Babubangla defined below 150 scores as batting collapse.

2. Yes, but in many cases our 5 down batsman is forced to come at crease within first 20 overs. And to make a more balanced comparison, I took only "dismissed" inningses into account. People were curious about Pilot's total record, so I made a seperate chart for him.

In case of top order collapses, openers are usually the first to go. Javed opened in almost all matches he played and Ashraful also opened in many matches. So you can label Javed and Ash as collapse starter.

TheWatcher
February 21, 2006, 11:13 AM
In last two years, discarding matches against Zim and HK, Pilot played 23 ODI innings w/ average of 30.75. He was out with a score below twenty 12 times (52.17%).

On contrary, Rajin played 16 ODI innings at the same period (again discarding matches against Zim and HK) with average of 13.94. He was out with a score below twenty 12 times (75%).

Don't see any reason to discard my belief that Pilot is a far more reliable batsman, at least, in contrast to Rajin.

You can look at them from many different angles, somehow I thought looking at last two years stats is a good idea.

Fazal
February 21, 2006, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by TheWatcher
On contrary, Rajin played 16 ODI innings at the same period (again discarding matches against Zim and HK) with average of 13.94. He was out with a score below twenty 12 times (75%).

:lol:

Tigers_eye
February 21, 2006, 12:22 PM
Thank you Spitfire_x86 bhai.

Collaspe can be labeled when more than 4 player gets out in cheap runs. Anything less is would be considered as mini collapse. One person can't be blamed for that. All involved should share the blame equally. Bcause everyone had a hand to the collapse. Singling out JO as a collapse starter and trying to justify of his exclusion would not work. 15 unplayed overs is a norm. How can we compete? Let alone win?

Bottom line is:

Within one year with the help of of every body, can Ash, Bashar, Aftab the strokemakers (Sloggers) change their tactics of not making stupid strokes? My guess is "no". So the result would be Bd all out by 35 overs against anybody 90% of the time. Anyone dare to disagree with me on this one? Opponent bowlers don't get credit to get these batsmen out, our batsmen who play shots that is uncalled for are the main reason. I say let JO play the unplayed 15 overs and add anything to that score if he can. (Even 40 runs in 90 balls adds 40 to the 118 total. )

Good thing I am not in Faruq's position. I'd make Ash and Bashar have a long vacation on the bench. They are the main culprit not JO and Pilot.

rudro
February 21, 2006, 12:26 PM
Originally posted by Spitfire_x86
This chart further confirms that Javed is the worst ODI batsman in our side. When an ODI opener is set and bats for a long period, but can't manage a strike rate better than 64, he is definately not a good ODI batsman. Ashraful and Aftab are the only batsmen among the listed ones who has won matches for us with bat. They are at the 1st and 3rd postion in the chart.

First, no one is claiming here that JO is a good one-day batsman. Everyone wants to go with JO because the so-called or so-labelled ODI batsmen are producing 12 runs in 15 balls (SR 80%) while JO is taking 12 runs in 18 balls (SR 66%). Don't you think, a team which cannot play out 50 overs altogether needs someone like JO?

Second, a striking rate of 64 is not enough to label a batsman non-ODI. Look at the striking rates of the following famous players:

Gavaskar: 62
Aamir Sohail: 62
Javed Miandad: 64
Ganguly 74
Azhar 74
Pravakar 60
dravid 70

How many of these players would you term as non-ODI?

Again, I want to re-iterate, inclusion of JO in the ODI team is justified because of his recent form in the domestic leauge and because he can play more balls than other so-called ODI batsmen not because he is an ODI batsman. If he could play out 40-50 balls, he will create oportunity for batsman like ashraful to apply their natural talent (and slog(?), sorry if I hurt someone's feelings).

Edited on, February 21, 2006, 5:28 PM GMT, by rudro.

SS
February 21, 2006, 12:45 PM
I agree with previous post of playing JLo

Tigers_eye
February 21, 2006, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by SS
I agree with previous post of playing JLo
I heard she has a nice footwork. Technically sound, can have great partnerships. At times can be really aggressive.

Faceoff
February 21, 2006, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by Cats_eye
Originally posted by SS
I agree with previous post of playing JLo
I heard she has a nice footwork. Technically sound, can have great partnerships. At times can be really aggressive.

hmm.. not sure abt that one.

rudro
February 21, 2006, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by Cats_eye
Originally posted by SS
I agree with previous post of playing JLo
I heard she has a nice footwork. Technically sound, can have great partnerships. At times can be really aggressive. :love::love::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Spitfire_x86
February 21, 2006, 01:22 PM
(in reply to rudro)

Both Javed and other batsmen will score below 20 most of the times, and make a 50+ score once in a while. 12 run is never a good score for a top order ODI batsmen, regardless of ball count. But unlike Javed, when others score sometimes we get a chance of winning the match. Why would you want to replace an incompetent batsman with somebody else who is even more incompetent?

I would take 230-250 in every 3 match than no more 170-200 in every match. We would never win the match against Australia if Javed scored a fifty.

Second, a striking rate of 64 is not enough to label a batsman non-ODI. Look at the striking rates of the following famous players.....
First of all, I compared their average strike rate in 50+ scores only. A good ODI innings is combination of runs and high strikerate. And in general, a specialist batsman's strike rate is often higher than his career SR when he is set and bats for a good ammount of time. Javed's career SR is 50, but in my chart his SR is 64. I actually showed him in a much more positive light. A good ODI batsman's career strike rate is generally 70 or higher.

Gavaskar, Pravakar were not good ODI batsmen, and none of your listed below 70 SR batsmen played cricket in this age. Moreover, in Gavaskar's time there was no field restriction/power play. In contemporary cricket, no opener except Javed can fail to score 100 if they bat almost throughout the innings.

If he could play out 40-50 balls, he will create oportunity for batsman like ashraful to apply their natural talent (and slog(?), sorry if I hurt someone's feelings).
If Ashraful's only talent is slogging, then his success depends purely on luck, not on Javed's 40 ball 15.

Spitfire_x86
February 21, 2006, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by Cats_eye
15 unplayed overs is a norm. How can we compete? Let alone win?
If 15 unplayed overs is a norm, then it has nothing to do with Javed's contribution or his presence in the batting line-up. We batted for 50 overs or scored 200+ in many occasions without his presence or notable contribution. I could prove this with numbers, but it would take quite a good ammount of time.

Tigers_eye
February 21, 2006, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by Spitfire_x86
If Ashraful's only talent is slogging, then his success depends purely on luck,

Luck you say? Yes, I agree, I bowled him but the bail didn't fall. - Tremlett.
9.4 Tremlett to Mohammad Ashraful, no run, goes back and defends, ball bounces then bounces on top of the bails that are not dislodged, an amazing survival


Luck you say? Yes, I agree, Gillispie is no longer in the team.
- Ponting.
36.4 Kasprowicz to Mohammad Ashraful, FOUR, short ball, Ashraful hooks to the fine leg, Gillespie fails to take the catch, ball rolls into the fence.

fai_hasan
February 21, 2006, 01:47 PM
suman bhai e nissondehe sobchaite reliable batsman. tobe uni idaning khub pressure r moddhe asen, ebong ejonno bhalo khelte partesen na.

Banglatiger84
February 21, 2006, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by AsifTheManRahman

No BD batsman can play ODI


heh. e r notun ki?

Yea, but they are pretty good Test players :rolleyes:

None of Our batsmen actually have the temperament needed to play in Tests or ODI's.

rudro
February 21, 2006, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by Banglatiger84
None of Our batsmen actually have the temperament needed to play in Tests or ODI's. Hate to say this - but doesn't this mean that we were prematurely elevated to the elite class?

RazabQ
February 21, 2006, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by rudro
Originally posted by Banglatiger84
None of Our batsmen actually have the temperament needed to play in Tests or ODI's. Hate to say this - but doesn't this mean that we were prematurely elevated to the elite class? That would depend on whether you think a Test class temparement is borne out of playing First class cricket. I think FC can give you some rudiments of shot selection and what not, but you only know if you belong in the Elite if you perform against them and with them, not in the level below.

I do believe Bashar has excellet Test match temparament. He is an aggressive batsman who has scored consistently in most countries w/o excessive swing and seam (excluding i.e. NZ and England).

Tapash also is a pretty good Test batsman :)

Tigers_eye
February 21, 2006, 02:27 PM
Popular belief vs. Reality

Since everyone thinks Ash is the best batsmen (ODI and test) and JO is the worst kind...
Some Head to head stats between JO and Ash

Last nine international outings stats: (excluding Bd-SL current series) Both played in all matches.

Ash
runs (Balls)
0(1)
7(4)
4(4)
31(54)
0(3)
17(63)
0(1)
42(41)
26(80)
Total: 108(271) Avg of 12. SR 39.8 %

JO
runs (Balls)
81(150)
0(10)
14(16)
18(36)
18(26)
30(48)
9(6)
18(33)
9(19)
Total: 197(344) Avg of 21.8. SR 57.26%

Perception is Ash is a much better ball stricker than JO. However, in the recent outings it shows just the opposite. The poor kid is out of form for how many months? Since the 3 back to back luck filled innings in England. We all know how he performed in Test against England. Here more stats for you guys.

Ash: 1st Test (against England)
6(9)
2(7)
2nd Test
3(9)
12(31)
Total: 23(56) Avg of 5.75. SR: who cares when you have less than 6 average and claim 2nd down position?

JO: 1st Test (against England)
22(60)
25(44)
2nd Test
37(83)
71(108)
Total: 155(295) Avg of 38.75. SR 52.5%.

Popular belief, Hah!! a joke. Drop Ash after this series. Nine innings an no fifty with 12 avg.

Spitfire_x86
February 21, 2006, 03:33 PM
You're focusing only on last few matches, which are very small in number to judge a player. All of my comparisons were based on career achievements (except "Pilot's record since 2002")

rudro
February 21, 2006, 03:44 PM
Originally posted by Spitfire_x86
You're focusing only on last few matches, which are very small in number to judge a player. All of my comparisons were based on career achievements (except "Pilot's record since 2002") I agree the numbers are small. But what should we count here, recent matches or alltime record? If alltime record speaks for a player's ability to play in the current team, then teams like west indies would have digged out dead players to play in the current team.

Tigers_eye
February 21, 2006, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by Spitfire_x86
You're focusing only on last few matches, which are very small in number to judge a player. All of my comparisons were based on career achievements (except "Pilot's record since 2002")

Yes sir,
If nafeez Iqbal scored less than 20 in 4 outings he is labelled as out of form. Let him play with the A team/ Domestic Cricket etc. Drop him from the team is echoed every where. No matter how he got out. Biased we are. Ash didn't score significant in 9 outings and still he is inform. Otherwise, what is the justification?

Believe me, if we were slightly competitive I wouldn't ask for JO in our team. To compete we must be able to play 50 overs. Our super stars are not worth more than the other players as they are potrayed.

pagol-chagol
February 21, 2006, 04:09 PM
Originally posted by Cats_eye
Popular belief vs. Reality

Since everyone thinks Ash is the best batsmen (ODI and test) and JO is the worst kind...
Some Head to head stats between JO and Ash

Last nine international outings stats: (excluding Bd-SL current series) Both played in all matches.

Ash
runs (Balls)
0(1)
7(4)
4(4)
31(54)
0(3)
17(63)
0(1)
42(41)
26(80)
Total: 108(271) Avg of 12. SR 39.8 %

JO
runs (Balls)
81(150)
0(10)
14(16)
18(36)
18(26)
30(48)
9(6)
18(33)
9(19)
Total: 197(344) Avg of 21.8. SR 57.26%

Perception is Ash is a much better ball stricker than JO. However, in the recent outings it shows just the opposite. The poor kid is out of form for how many months? Since the 3 back to back luck filled innings in England. We all know how he performed in Test against England. Here more stats for you guys.

Ash: 1st Test (against England)
6(9)
2(7)
2nd Test
3(9)
12(31)
Total: 23(56) Avg of 5.75. SR: who cares when you have less than 6 average and claim 2nd down position?

JO: 1st Test (against England)
22(60)
25(44)
2nd Test
37(83)
71(108)
Total: 155(295) Avg of 38.75. SR 52.5%.

Popular belief, Hah!! a joke. Drop Ash after this series. Nine innings an no fifty with 12 avg.

Pretty good thumping of Ashraful. JO is in too good of a form to be out of the team. He and Tikolo were the only two dominating performer in the league this year.

Here is a comparison I just ran on cricifo comparing Ashraful and Golla. Took out HongKong game.
CI Comparison (http://statserver.cricket.org/guru?sdb=compare;playerid=24667;class=odiplayer;fi lter=advanced;team=0;opposition=0;notopposition=HK G;homeaway=0;continent=0;country=0;notcountry=0;gr oundid=0;season=0;startdefault=2001-04-11;start=2001-01-01;enddefault=2006-02-20;end=2006-02-20;tourneyid=0;finals=0;daynight=0;toss=0;schedule dovers=0;scheduleddays=0;innings=0;followon=0;resu lt=0;seriesresult=0;captain=0;keeper=0;dnp=0;recen t=20;runslow=;runshigh=;batposition=0;dismissal=0; bowposition=0;ballslow=;ballshigh=;bpof=0;overslow =;overshigh=;conclow=;conchigh=;wicketslow=;wicket shigh=;dismissalslow=;dismissalshigh=;caughtlow=;c aughthigh=;caughttype=0;stumpedlow=;stumpedhigh=;v iewtype=com_compare;csearch=Javed;cplayerid=2198;c omparetype=aro_summary;compare=1;.cgifields=cplaye rid;.cgifields=comparetype)

Actually Ashraful has scored about 10 more runs/game than Golla in the last 20 games if you take out Asia-Africa game.

It looks like Ashraful really sucked in the beginning of his career and only recently started to average over 25. Golla has been averaging 17 in the last 20 games. If thats his ceiling at this age, may be its time for us to let him go. He had an amazing England tour though. And he always comes through when his back is against the wall. So expect something big on Wednesday from him.

Edited on, February 21, 2006, 9:49 PM GMT, by Ahmed_B.
Reason: Fixed Link

Tigers_eye
February 21, 2006, 04:19 PM
Bhai'rey (Pagol-chagol),
Ami ki dosh korsi jey apney amar beloon futa korchen? :)

Anyways, Good luck to both of them and pray and hope they perform well and win the next one or atleast be very competitive.

Ahmed_B
February 21, 2006, 04:19 PM
Here is a complete picture of the last 15 innings (assuming that recent innings matter most to determine 'form') played by our top-order batsmen. Practically, I see no real difference between them in terms of runs scored or averages or even consistancy. All of them are equally inconsistant and low-averaged. Perhaps the reason why we consider JO or Pilot or Bashar to be more reliable is because they take more time to settle and play more balls than others. And surely that is one good reason why their strike-rates will be lower than the strokemakers. In this way... having a low average and a high strike rate, like Ash does, is pretty much harmful for the team as well... because it leaves the team under pressure instantly.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v335/ahmedb/Cricket/Batting.jpg

I would like to add the following assumptions as well:

1-Higher or Midium Average with High strike rate = Highly productive Batsman and a matchwinner on most occassions

2-Midium Average with Average/Low strike rate = Usefull batsman (in BD context) but possibly never a matchwinner

3-Midium/Lower Average with High/Average strike rate = Probably the least usefull one.

Edited on, February 21, 2006, 9:31 PM GMT, by Ahmed_B.

Shafin
February 21, 2006, 04:19 PM
One thing is for sure,Golla is not anyway a match winner which ash is,so if we need our team to win,we need more of ash,not golla,as there is nothing like the so called shommnjonok har.

Spitfire_x86
February 21, 2006, 04:24 PM
(in reply to Cat's_Eye)

Nafees Iqbal's achievement in last 1.5 years was nowhere near Ashraful's achievements against quality sides in both Test and ODI. I only made comparisons among the players who are in the current squad, and all my references were strictly limited to ODIs. But you had to mix Test and ODI records.

We have not been competitive at all in too many matches during in couple of years. And Javed played many ODIs in last couple of years. The objective should be moving forward, not moving backwards or standing still. This is why I think dropping Javed and experimenting with Rajin was a right decision. He opened innings in his last few ODIs and in this domestic season. He was metally prepared to do the job, giving him just one chance isn't fair. If he became successful, then it could've been good for both him and the team. His place in the middle order is not very secure anymore, and the players like Mushfiq are pushing hard for a position in middle order. Flexibility can save Rajin from turning into another Hannan in near future.

If you're really curious, then I'll bring up real facts in time which will hopefully prove me right about my educated guess (that there's no relation between Javed's contribution and batting full 50 overs/scoring 200+)

rudro
February 21, 2006, 04:38 PM
One thing for sure from those graphs is that no one has improved his/her game. They are all inconsistent. Once in a while their score jumped to the average of a decent one-day player of a team like IND or AUS but dropped sharply in the next game.

Tigers_eye
February 21, 2006, 04:41 PM
Spitfire_x16 bhai,
I have no issue with Rajin. His game more emulates Golla than Ash. I just think Ash is immensely talented but his head is not in the game. It would do good for the team if he is to sit for a series. He did come with evengence earlier in his career. Against a team like SL (without 3 regular players) we should at least be competitive. Not be able to play out 50 overs batting first, bothers me more than the 118 low score.

Please do not go through the trouble to bring up real stats. I believe you.

My personal preference: Test over ODI anyday of the week. So I tend to like golla type players who can grind. Not Ash/Aftab/Bashar the Smash masters. making a boundary and out in the next ball. The bowlers have the last laugh.

Electrequiem
February 21, 2006, 11:44 PM
so any live video feeds today brothers?

Electrequiem
February 21, 2006, 11:44 PM
so any live video feeds today brothers?

irteja
February 21, 2006, 11:57 PM
this is not match treat:E

himu
February 22, 2006, 12:30 AM
Animated live score:

http://www.tigercricket.com/cricketlive.htm

himu
February 22, 2006, 12:39 AM
Heres the live link:

http://www.bangladeshlive.net/1050891.html

Tushar1970
February 22, 2006, 06:02 AM
We Won!!!:fanflag::fanflag:

:joy::joy::joy:

ToeCrusher
February 22, 2006, 07:11 PM
Numbers are just that. Totally depends on how you interpret them. Only thing that counts is how many do you score and at what strike rate. I think most of the contributors are presenting numbers to suit their arguments.

pagol-chagol
February 23, 2006, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by pagol-chagol
Golla has been averaging 17 in the last 20 games. If thats his ceiling at this age, may be its time for us to let him go. He had an amazing England tour though. And he always comes through when his back is against the wall. So expect something big on Wednesday from him.


I had to gloat. It was easy though. Golla always comes through after not making the 11. So does Rana.

Here is another prediction. Easier one. Srilanka will blow us away in the 3rd game. At least one century for them. May be 2.

Tigers_eye
February 23, 2006, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by pagol-chagol
Here is another prediction. Easier one. Srilanka will blow us away in the 3rd game. At least one century for them. May be 2.
Pagol-chagol manush abol tabol tho bokbei. Only natural :)

Spitfire_x86
March 17, 2006, 10:02 AM
I think it's time to bump this thread. He played only 3 matches since this thread, so the figures are still quite accurate.

JO is not international class at all. He's not a good opener, he's not a good batsman for either Test or ODI. He bats like a nightwatchman, but still has a huge fanbase which thinks he's the most reliable batsman we have. :E :mad: :head:

nayef
March 17, 2006, 10:12 AM
reliable or not... i think we shud give him 35% credit for the opening partnership of 92 {27% for the runs and 8% for sticking out there and not throwing his wkt}.

he's definitely not world class... but did a job asked for by the captain and coach.

ofcourse this leads to questions of why he's called reliable and not others.. which cant exactly be explained in numbers... Ashraful ... even when in total control makes ur heart leap to ur mouth... but JO gives u a false sense of security... hence the talk of "reliabililty"!

Sovik
March 17, 2006, 11:39 AM
he scored 26 runs against toothless bowling. there was not a hint of swing.


anyone ever seen javed playing a pull shot, coz doesn't have the reflex.


sooner or later we have to leave him out, so why not now. this is the right time, all the batsman are in good touch. and we could play our much loved mushfiq rahim.


but 1 thing. i may not like javed's batting but i am a big fan of his fielding. and i think bd team should learn something from him

mafizraju
March 17, 2006, 12:29 PM
Spitfire, seems like you are realy up against Javed Omar. did u promise not to sleep till javed gets out of the team? good to see such a great conviction and even better when it inspires you that much. Gotta love you Mate.!

Now I am not a huge fan of Javed but nonetheless I am one of the Javed pushers. When all other batsmen are stroking out its hard to understand why Javed is fishing and shuffling. His todays innigs seemed like he is out of water. He is much better batsman in a bit faster pitch where his push doesnot need to be as hard to score. But still I am not willing ot write him off or kick him out. If the rest of the batsmen can improve their consistency only then I would think he doesnot have a place in the team. But blaming soulely for all the awful performances of the team is not a good approach. He tries hard to fit in even in the new dimension of all stroke making bd batsmen. but he lacks strokes for sure, he becomes awafuly contained when the fielding restriction is not there. but still he is safer (dont know whether its a better) bet in the oppening slot. Nafis Iqbal is out of form, Hannan doesnot seem like invited, Rokon is completely ignored, who else can open. I am against all kind of testing and proving. A team can have the luxyry to test when they know there are 10 more players to make a difference. We dont know that yet. If there is any such potential (if rokon gets included and proves himself or Nafis sorts out his game or hannan comes back dont want to include U19 players since I beleive they need few more years) surely Javed is a goner. but untill that time come he should be entrusted. he may be able to score 19/20 in a 92 run partnership but certainly the time spent on the crease and to see off the new ball will give much comfort in the dressing room. If he can continue to have scores in 20ies and able to give company to one or two top order partnerships I am okay to keep him. And if he is a goner in year and a half surely we will have nafis or who ever who is year and half more mature and worked hard year and half more to be included in the team. That benefits the team. Btw Rokon should have been given a chance