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Afridi2Belfast
March 25, 2006, 03:51 PM
With the rise once again of leg spinners thanks to Abdul Qadir and the advent of genuine doosra bowlers - who is the best old fashioned orthodox spinner in the international game?

jayed
March 25, 2006, 06:32 PM
i'd say you've probably missed out some. you've missed out saqlain.

there are others, like udal.

????????????

jayed
March 25, 2006, 06:34 PM
but i doubt rafiqe should win. i know he will. bcos he's bdeshi and this a pro-bd site. i think vettori is the best

Locutus
March 25, 2006, 10:36 PM
Daniel Vettori
No Question

Donny
March 26, 2006, 04:53 AM
Vettori by a long way.

Saqlain is an offie. So is Udal.

jayed
March 26, 2006, 05:56 AM
practically every1 up there is an offie, its just they're all left arm, i think. if ur referring to leggies, none of the above r.

4 leggies, i think mushtaq ahmed is class.

obiviously shanewarne, but it dont work dat way

nas
March 26, 2006, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by jayed
practically every1 up there is an offie, its just they're all left arm, i think. if ur referring to leggies, none of the above r.

4 leggies, i think mushtaq ahmed is class.

obiviously shanewarne, but it dont work dat way


u need to work on ur english vocabulary

Orthodox spinner is the traditional finger spinners.
warne, nushi, and most leggies are wrist spinners.

Edited on, March 26, 2006, 6:04 PM GMT, by nas.

jayed
March 26, 2006, 01:20 PM
no thank u, my friend-
mre like u go back 2 ur crummy sw england to learn vocab. unless u think none of the above r offies

donny was sayin saqlain and udal are offspinners.
but practically every1 above are offies, so i corrected him, unless he was mistaken 4 leggies so thats y i said mushi and etc,

Afridi2Belfast
March 26, 2006, 02:41 PM
Saqlain bowls the doosra hence he is not there.

nayef
March 26, 2006, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by Afridi2Belfast
With the rise once again of leg spinners thanks to Abdul Qadir and the advent of genuine doosra bowlers - who is the best old fashioned orthodox spinner in the international game?


i think u r talking abt left-arm orthodox spinners here.
just orthodox would mean off-spinners ... since there is a right-hand bias is cricket.

but yeah.. at this point of time.. the choice is vettori

Afridi2Belfast
March 26, 2006, 05:19 PM
An orthodox spinner is an old fashioned FINGER spinner - left or right handed.

A doosra bowler or a leg spinner is an UNORTHODOX bowler.

nayef
March 27, 2006, 09:08 AM
Originally posted by Afridi2Belfast
An orthodox spinner is an old fashioned FINGER spinner - left or right handed.

A doosra bowler or a leg spinner is an UNORTHODOX bowler.

I'm afraid there's no such "doosra bowler"
As doosra simply is a delivery which goes the other way. In legspin, such a delivery is called googly. However, there was nth defined for offspinners until Saqlain called his one a "doosra". Hence the name. Nowadays, most off-spinners have it in their armoury. If someone were to bowl doosras consistently, he'd rather be a leg-spinner!

jayed
March 27, 2006, 01:01 PM
an wats so unorthodox bout doosra?

in every way, in england, they call it 'arm ball' in aussies i dunno.

but googly has been around 4 2 centuries.

and it is used by every legspinner for the past century, if u guyz think abdul kadir, and mushi r not traditional leggies, who r? hey? paul adams?

and THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS 'DOOSRA' BOWLING. its a type of delivery, u cant say there is a yorker bowler, or a bouncer bowler.

doosra is the offspinners googly, it comprosises of using the wrist, yes, but also with fingers.

there aint no doosra.

and vettori is some doosra bowler, infact murali taught him in the world xi-v-aussies how to perfect it.

in matter of the terms,

vettori is the best.

only a idiot would think rafique is.

bdmoderator
March 27, 2006, 05:47 PM
Mohammad Rafique. :fanflag:

Donny
March 27, 2006, 09:21 PM
A left arm finger spinner is known as 'left arm authodox'.

A right arm finger spinner is known as 'right arm offbreak'

Afridi2Belfast has thrown us a doosra by including Jeetan Patel, an offie, amongst a list of left arm orthodox bowlers.

One can reasonably assume this is a mistake as Murali or Bhajji are not on the list but perhaps A2B could enlighten us ?

jayed, with your lack of English skills, I think you should be careful when calling anyone 'a idiot'. Correctly, it's an idiot.

An 'arm ball' is not a doosra, in England or anywhere. It's simply a ball that doesn't spin.

Baundule
March 28, 2006, 10:04 AM
Monty Panesar ;)

Baundule
March 28, 2006, 10:09 AM
Originally posted by jayed
in matter of the terms,

vettori is the best.

only a idiot would think rafique is.

If you are so sure, why did you care voting in a poll?
And if you think, only idiots will think Rafique as the best which respect do you offer for the others? Curios of your 'true' class?

Edited on, March 28, 2006, 3:13 PM GMT, by Baundule.

Tigers_eye
March 28, 2006, 11:51 AM
Among the bowlers mentioned in the list, stats speaks loudly. Vettori by miles.

jayed
March 28, 2006, 12:02 PM
donny, i am writing in 4eely, i dont care bout spelling grammar etc. this is not a school essay i'm writing, is it?
and em, loox like we have found the hypocrite-
QOUTED BY U-
'left arm authodox' well, i swear u spell the last word like this- orthodox? mmmmm.

and arm ball, ok.

a doosra doesn't have 2 spin, does it? no. a googly by mushi doesnt always spin does it?

and dudes, i knew i'd get negative feedback, but rafiq, IN REALITY isnt beta den

nas
March 28, 2006, 04:37 PM
jayed u are a tooser,

doosra is bowled so the bowl spin a bowl the opposite way than how a bowler normally spins the ball.

it doosra dont have to spin, why attempt it? u would be better of bowling an arm bowl of quicker one.

it attempted doosra doesnt spin, it because the bowler got it slightly wrong or the pitch isnt assisting.

u comment " a doosra doesn't have 2 spin, does it? no. a googly by mushi doesnt always spin does it?"
its basicly like saying a yorker dont have to pitched at batsman toe, a low full toss would do.

Edited on, March 28, 2006, 9:37 PM GMT, by nas.

jayed
March 29, 2006, 12:47 PM
well, dosra is a disguised ball, that looks like somthing else, than tryin 2 bowl arm ball

Donny
March 30, 2006, 05:25 AM
Originally posted by jayed
donny, i am writing in 4eely, i dont care bout spelling grammar etc. this is not a school essay i'm writing, is it?
and em, loox like we have found the hypocrite-
QOUTED BY U-
'left arm authodox' well, i swear u spell the last word like this- orthodox? mmmmm.

Yes, quite right, jayed. It is 'orthodox'. :) I stand corrected.

However, I wasn't referring to your spelling so 'hypocrite' is a bit harsh.

What is '4eely' :-/

cricbb
March 30, 2006, 09:38 AM
Mohammad Rofique because due to the limited talent he has.

jayed
March 30, 2006, 11:31 AM
4reely- my friend is a way of saying 'freely'. in nowadays, the text message generation, this is a common lingo.

for instance-
jayed,
74Y3D

and sorry for the hypocrite title, and i didn't know what specifically u were referring 2 since u said 'lack of english skills'.

Spitfire_x86
March 30, 2006, 03:25 PM
l33t speak = unacceptable

Hatebreed
March 30, 2006, 03:35 PM
Vettori is by far the best.. Rafique is good but he's not as effective.

Miraz
March 30, 2006, 03:53 PM
Vettori is definitely good but Rafiq is also very effective if not better. We have to keep one thing in mind that Vettori gets lots of support from the felow batsmen and thats why he can experiment with his deliveries. He can give loop and flight in the deliveries which made him a good orthodox spinner. On the other hand Rafiq never gets support from BD batsmen and thats why he has to bowl flat deliveries to contain the batsman and prevent scoring.

I personally think Rafiq bowls armer deliveries lot better than Vettori. I would be intersting if Rafiq could give his deliveries sufficient air and could bowl without pressure. I hope Rafiq will get those days before his retirement.

Donny
March 30, 2006, 08:30 PM
Originally posted by jayed
4reely- my friend is a way of saying 'freely'. in nowadays, the text message generation, this is a common lingo.

for instance-
jayed,
74Y3D

Thanks jayed. :)

I live in the crater of a long extinct volcano and so cannot get mobile phone reception and although I do chat a fair bit on the net, there's still a lot of jargon I don't recognise or understand.

I accept it's desirable/practical to use 'short form' language when there's a space or time restriction but in a bulletin board, neither of these are the case.

There are still many who use the internet but don't chat or understand the (phone/chat) jargon. I run a bulletin board and have to remind some of my members about this, especially new ones.

I don't insist on correct spelling or even good grammar but readers do like to understand what the poster has written.

RazabQ
March 30, 2006, 08:50 PM
Ok, want to clarify the confusion regarding spin bowlers.

There are primarily two forms. Finger spinner and wrist spinner.

Finger Spinners come in two varieties

Right arm off-break, and Left arm orthodox. Both are essentially the same, in terms of action and spin imparted, it's just the bowling arm, and hence direction of spin (wrt right-handed batsmen) is reveres. Dunno why only left-armers are called orthodox, but I have a theory which I'll explain in the next category.

Finger spinners tend to have 3 times of delivery, which combined with variations of speed, flight/loop, drift and superannuatoin of the wrist, consitute their arsenal.

The stock delivery tends to be the one that, for a righ hander, will spin into a right handed batsmen and for a left hander spin away. Then there's the arm ball - this is more often used by left handers, but essentiall an arm ball is where the action is unchanged but not much rpm is imparted on the ball and the ball goes on straight. Then there's the doosra. Originally popularized by Saqlain, a doosra is a finger spin delivery which actually because of the flexion of the wrist is imparted spin in the opposite direction to the stock delivery. Also called a drifter.

Now to wrist spinners. Again two types. The right arm leggie and left arm chinaman. Again both are mirror opposites, otherwise they do the same thing. Use the wrist to impart spin as opposed to fingers which will, to a right handed batsmen, spin away for a leggie, and spin in like an off-break, for a chinaman bowler. I believe it was the prevalence of left arm chinaman bowlers in the turn of the century that necessitated the usage of the term "orthodox" for left arm finger spinners.

At any rate, a major variatiion (there are other minor ones) for a wrist spinner is the googly, which is bowled from the back of the hand and thus imparted spin opposite to the normal direction.

So having said that, with the exception of Warne, McGill and Kumble, all the major spinners in world cricket today are finger spinners. Rafique, Vettori, Giles, Panesar, Boje et all are left arm orthodox, while Murali and Bhajji are offies.

Jayed, while figuring out how to compose coherent sentences, you might want to take the above explanation into account before posting a poll :)

If you want nice pictorial explanations, check out the following links:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cricket/skills/4173636.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cricket/skills/4173584.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cricket/skills/4173750.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cricket/skills/4173812.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cricket/skills/4174048.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cricket/skills/4174244.stm

Flipper
March 30, 2006, 09:55 PM
We went through this topic many times. Yes, I think Rafique is one of the best SLAs. For the perpose of this poll, I didn't vote as I can't vote for Rafique over Vittori for some reasons, and at the same time I can't vote for Vitorri over Rafique for other reasons.

I found one of those threads where we discussed it before, and will quote a few people: (please note that these are few months old)


Originally posted by thebest
Statitically Rafiq is not so much behind Vettori. Spinners need Runs to be attacking. So in my view rafiq is better considering how little run he has to protect. He did not get the chance to bowl Bangladesh - the worst players of spin. Take aside Bangladesh from vetorri stat it is worse than Rafiq. Here are the stats There is tendency of our so called literate Bangladeshi to underestimate anything Bangladeshi. This thread is one of the glaring example.

Stat
Player Mat O R W BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10
Rafiq 20 948.4 2453 68 6/77 7/116 36.07 2.58 83.7 5 0
Vettori 62 2607.1 6989 196 7/87 12/149 35.65 2.68 79.8 12 2
Vettori's stat without considering Bangladesh.
58 1657 137* 22.69 1 9 170 7/87 38.98 9 27 0

The comparative stat againest India supposedly best players of Spin is as follow

Player Mat O R W BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10
Rafiq 3 143 389 9 4/156 4/156 43.22 2.72 95.3 0 0
Vettori 9 373.3 1059 19 6/127 6/149 55.73 2.83 117.9 1 0

Now consider who is better.


Edited on, July 25, 2005, 7:14 AM GMT, by thebest.


Originally posted by billah
Razab's analysis is right about Rafique. The idea that Rafiq is THE BEST SLA in the world came from this S. Rajesh article.

Rafique on the rise (http://content.cricinfo.com/bangladesh/content/story/142656.html)

At the time, some of Rafique's stats against India was actually better than that of Shane Warne.

Originally posted by Zunaid
I also point to this article when the Kiwi's visited us last year:

The SLA Wars: Rafique Vs Vettori (http://www.banglacricket.com/html/article.php?year=2004&item=256)

Link>> (http://www.banglacricket.com/alochona/viewthread.php?tid=13441&page=2)

ammark
April 4, 2006, 06:46 AM
Vettori. Rafique comes a close 2nd