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jayed
April 5, 2006, 01:57 PM
this can apply from all periods, all times, all generations. i think i have pretty much included the ELITE of the a.rounders. keep us posted if u confer or got summat 2 say.

and plz, dont base ur vote/comment on stats, some times its not about that. thanks. i shall not include flintoff, YET! or S.R. Waugh.

tell me if i miss out some1 special.

Edited on, April 5, 2006, 9:05 PM GMT, by Nasif.
Reason: mod.title.caps

cricman
April 5, 2006, 04:02 PM
Sorry Can't resisit it, has to be getting old by now but oh well.

Alok Kapali has to be the greatest allrounder ever. Hat-trick vs Pakistan, 89* vs the West Indies, but I think Garry Sobers can give Kapali a run for his money.

Edited on, April 5, 2006, 9:03 PM GMT, by cricman.

Zunaid
April 5, 2006, 04:16 PM
Where's Keith Miller?

<pre>
Miller:

Batting

M I NO Runs HS Ave 100 50 Ct St
55 87 7 2958 147 36.97 7 13 38 -

Bowling
Balls M R W Ave Best 5 10 SR Econ
10461 337 3906 170 22.97 7-60 7 1 61.5 2.24

Sobers:

Batting
M I NO Runs HS Ave 100 50 Ct St
93 160 21 8032 365* 57.78 26 30 109 -

Bowling

Balls M R W Ave Best 5 10 SR Econ
21599 974 7999 235 34.03 6-73 6 - 91.9 2.22
</pre>

battye
April 6, 2006, 05:53 AM
Steve Tikolo

He could probably be a world class wicket keeper if he wanted to :lol:

A world class player in an average team, I sure hope he plays Test cricket before he retires, although as each year passes it seems to be becoming less and less likely.

Sovik
April 6, 2006, 06:54 AM
sir garfeld sobers

Tigers_eye
April 6, 2006, 10:01 AM
Sobers no doubt.

2nd Imran.

3rd hadlee.

jayed
April 6, 2006, 10:52 AM
wat about wg grace, the dude who pioneered cricket.

Donny
April 6, 2006, 11:56 AM
Well, what about him?

If you voted for the Doctor, how about you tell us something about him?

jayed
April 6, 2006, 02:16 PM
i'm not going 2 b bothered about typin all his contributions.
SOURCE-WIKIPEDIA
W. G. Grace
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from WG Grace)
Jump to: navigation, search
W. G. Grace
England (Eng)

Batting style Right-handed batsman (RHB)
Bowling type
Tests First-class
Matches 22 870
Runs scored 1098 54211
Batting average 32.29 39.45
100s/50s 2/5 124/251
Top score 170 344
Balls bowled 666 124831
Wickets 9 2809
Bowling average 26.22 18.14
5 wickets in innings 0 240
10 wickets in match 0 64
Best bowling 2/12 10/49
Catches/stumpings 39/0 876/5
Test debut: 6 September 1880
Last Test: 3 June 1899
Source: [1]


William Gilbert Grace (July 18, 1848–October 23, 1915) was an English cricketer who, by his extraordinary skills, made cricket perhaps the first modern spectator sport, and who developed most of the techniques of modern batting.

In a career spanning nearly forty years, he averaged 39.45 at first class level, an average undoubtedly dragged down by playing into his late fifties. At his peak in the 1870s his first-class season averages were regularly between 60 and 70, at a time where uncovered, poorly-prepared pitches meant that scores were far lower than the modern game. He played Test cricket against Australia in the 1880s, but he was already past his peak at that stage.

He was a doctor by profession and played cricket as a (nominal) amateur throughout his career.

jayed
April 6, 2006, 02:18 PM
He made every figure from 0 to 100, on one occasion closing the innings when he had made 93, the only total he had never made between these limits.

jayed
April 6, 2006, 02:21 PM
and donny, dont try it. now matter how good aussie keith milla is, he is insignificant to the doctor.

since u probably will state miller is the best.

plus, the doctor had to face the likes of great bowlers, like tich freeman, who took more wickets than warne, murali, mcgrath, walsh, wasim, waqar combined.

James90
April 11, 2006, 09:02 PM
That logic is so flawed I'm not going to dignify it with a responce.

Damn, I just did.

mhferdaus
April 12, 2006, 03:41 PM
this can apply from all periods, all times, all generations. i think i have pretty much included the ELITE of the a.rounders. keep us posted if u confer or got summat 2 say.

and plz, dont base ur vote/comment on stats, some times its not about that. thanks. i shall not include flintoff, YET! or S.R. Waugh.

tell me if i miss out some1 special.

Edited on, April 5, 2006, 9:05 PM GMT, by Nasif.
Reason: mod.title.caps

I did not see those grace and miller buddies, but I have seen klusener,kallis,cairns,abdur razzaq,azhar mahmood play, they are all genuine all rounders to me, they could swing the match both with bat and ball, and they have great averages in bowlind and batting too. wasim akram and imran khan are bowling and batting allrounders respectively, so i did not include them.

bharat
April 13, 2006, 03:37 PM
Kapil is not too down the list but would definitely put him above Klusener ,razzak ,azhar or Wasim for that matter !

In '80's and 90's I think the toss is between Imran and Kapil ...
presently Kallis and Flintoff.

areyoushpongled?
April 14, 2006, 08:37 AM
<!--StartFragment --> <!--StartFragment --> A cricketer is inevitably a product of his times, and obviously if we were able to send a time machine back to fetch W.G. and put him into a Test match today, he would undoutedly struggle. But a cricketer of Grace's calibre born into modern times would probably still become the greatest cricketer in the world, if given the opportunities. The demands of the game, the skills required, and the equipment, have not changed very much.

K.S. Ranjitsinhji on W.G. Grace in The Jubile Book of Cricket:

"He revolutionised cricket, turning it from an accomplishment into a science; he united in his masterly self all the good points of all the good players and made utility the criterion of style... He turned the old one-stringed instrument into a many chorded lyre, a wand. But in addition he made his execution equal his invention. Possibly Grace's most far reaching achievement was to master both forward and back play and draw on both with equal dexterity. Until his time, a man was either a back player like Carpenter or a forward player like Pilch, a hitter like E.H. Budd or a sticker like Harry Jupp. But W.G. Grace was each and all at once."

bidrohi
April 14, 2006, 04:12 PM
great words coming from a great batsman, 'ranji'. that guy had strokes with a somewhat feline grace.

bidrohi
April 14, 2006, 04:14 PM
n who is thid

bidrohi
April 14, 2006, 04:15 PM
n who is this 'jayed' guy? i am english, but that guy is nuts.

bidrohi
April 14, 2006, 04:23 PM
james90, if ur response was directed at jay, i think he meant grace made every score from one 2 100,
as in he made 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9......................98, 99, 100 at least once in his career.

so u must have probs i u don't get dat.

James90
April 14, 2006, 06:05 PM
It was this remark that I was referring to

the doctor had to face the likes of great bowlers, like tich freeman, who took more wickets than warne, murali, mcgrath, walsh, wasim, waqar combined.

HereWeGo
April 14, 2006, 08:35 PM
Greatest......hmm may be ashraful... ( he is full of talent, u can smell it feel it but cant see it) he is a tremendous batsmen and an outstanding leg spinner. Well someday..... he shall show his true worth....Sorry ma not good at sounding sarcastic.

jayed
April 15, 2006, 02:26 PM
ok james90, 2 put u out of ur misery. i want 2 show u how great graces bowling counterparts were.

tich freeman was the greatest leg spinner ever. he bowled b4 the test cricket/international era was at his peak. and took 3,776 or more wickets in his career with bbi at 10/53. HE HAD 1O WICKETS IN AN INNINGS NO LESS THAN 140 TIMES!

and i meant, he had 2 face ppl like that tich freeman, who r so gud, they got mre wickets than our current players ever will.

James90
April 15, 2006, 10:05 PM
But how can you say this for sure? Did you ever watch him bowl?

"He had 10 wickets in an innings no less that 140 times" <---- Incorrect, he took 10 wickets in a MATCH 140 times. It's a very impressive record no doubt but do remember the calibre of players before Bradman, the professionalism and pressure of the sport in those days as opposed to the cricketers in the 21st century. Freeman played on until he was 48, how many cricketers can you see doing that now?

Freeman's record is impressive due to the sheer weight he cricket he played and the simple "recreation" that cricket was in those days. If Muralitharan had played as many first class matches as Freeman did he would have 3466 wickets and no less than 80 ten-wicket hauls. Their bowling averages are also stunningly similar.

What's even funnier is that WG Grace played cricket until he was 60 years old! That's an astonishing amount of cricket, something no-one of this day and age could achieve. He played 870 first-class matches, mostly for Gloucestershire and MCC. Now WG Grace played first class cricket until 1908 and died in 1915. What makes your thesis that "WG Grace was the greatest all-rounder ever because he had to face bowlers such as Freeman" is turned into a joke by the fact that Freeman didn't make his first-class debut until 1914.

WG GRACE NEVER FACED TICH FREEMAN.

My original claim was that the statement that WG Grace was good because he faced Freeman who is so much better than anyone playing in the current age. This isn't even close to being true. Often in those days the game was created for amateur batsmen and professional bowlers were paid to entertain them. Uncovered pitches would also help but if you played 592 first-class games and very few against test cricketers with no time limit, defensive batting then someone like Murali and Warne would definitely average lower than 18 with the ball. Wisden himself averaged about 10 with the red cherry.

Tich Freeman played all of his cricket in the 20th century, however the five cricketers of the century voted on by Wisden (often referred to as the Bible of English cricket) chose the five cricketers of the century as:

Sir Don Bradman
Sir Vivian Richards
Sir Garfield Sobers
Sir Jack Hobbs
....
and...
SHANE WARNE!

How good is your "greatest legspinner ever" looking now? Do you really think your opinions are more valid than Wisden? And how is saying "Grace faced Freeman" justified anyway? Surely if Warne is the greatest leg-spinner of all time then anyone who faced him is better than WG Grace. I'm not stupid enough to believe that but you have to realise what a ridiculous remark that was.

I could go to great lengths to explain why Sir Garfield Sobers is better than WG Grace was a better cricketer than the doctor. However I won't do this because WG Grace could well be the greatest all-rounder of all time for the influence he had on the game. I seriously doubt that any of us would be sitting here discussing the game if it weren't for the great bearded man. So I would like to leave you with this thought, the exact same thread discussed by a different forum.

10 Best all rounders ever. (http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16976)

Profiles:
Tich Freeman (http://content-aus.cricinfo.com/ci/content/player/12918.html)
WG Grace (http://content-aus.cricinfo.com/ci/content/player/13424.html)
Muttiah Muralitharan (http://content-aus.cricinfo.com/ci/content/player/49636.html)

thebest
April 15, 2006, 10:52 PM
Numbers suggest Kallis is the greatest allrounder. But the problem with it is that it does not consider evry aspect of cricket. It only consider batting and bowling. There is other aspect of cricket like fielding, captaincy, rising on occasion againest stronger opposition, influence on game and so on. This means that Kallis has not been considered as top grade all rounder, which might be quite right. The doctor may have influenced cricket more than others but what I read he played for hsi pleasure not for cricket. For shear the joy of watching cricket Cairns, Flinthof is my high list. And what I read Miller would be there. He was a good captain. But to me he is the greatest because of this
One of the modern day players was talking about pressure, and he was explaining to Miller the pressure of being out in the field, and Miller had been through all this and done pretty well over the years.

He listened for a while and the guy got to him, didn't quite prod him in the chest, he said of course, he said you wouldn't understand about pressure, Keith, would you? Keith said pressure, son, is when you're flying a Spitfire and you've got a massive Spit 109 right up your arse firing tracer bullets past you.

This means he is true all rounder in all sense not only batting, bowling, fielding but also in real life

jayed
April 16, 2006, 06:23 PM
tich freeman was 1 of the foremst exponents of leg bowling. also, sorry i might have messed up bcos i havent revised my facts for a good 4 yrs. my mistake.

still, grace, even though he avged 40, b4 when he was young, he avged 70. NO allrounder persistently have avged that much. NO allrounder has taken more wkts than him.
and he stacked up more runs than lara, border, 10ulkar, ponting, waugh will ever make.

he played on till he was 60 yes, but just goes 2 show his finesse.

Locutus
April 17, 2006, 10:36 PM
J Kallis, C Cairns, G Sobers.

Ashtheman
April 18, 2006, 03:21 AM
In my lifetime I would vote:

Flintoff
Imran
Cairns
Kallis
Pollock

For me Kallis is not a great bowler (though his figures are good) while Pollock is not quite a good enough batsman. Flintoff is probably the only one in my time that could make a world XI with bat or ball.

James90
April 20, 2006, 05:28 AM
Flintoff wouldn't come close as a specialist batsman.

Tintin
April 20, 2006, 06:44 AM
[quote]What makes your thesis that "WG Grace was the greatest all-rounder ever because he had to face bowlers such as Freeman" is turned into a joke by the fact that Freeman didn't make his first-class debut until 1914./QUOTE]

I think Jayed got confused between two 'Freemen'. George Freeman was a fearsome fastbowler from the late 1860s and 1870s, probably the greatest English bowler of Grace's time http://cricketarchive.co.uk/Archive/Players/29/29542/29542.html Tich Freeman is ofcourse someone else.

jayed
April 20, 2006, 02:33 PM
no sorry, tintin, it was my fault 4 not revising my facts. i might've mixed freeman with tich sorry.

any 288 wkts, AT 9.84, at 1.66 economy.

HA! BOWLING HEAVEN!