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Ahmed_B
August 15, 2006, 03:10 PM
It is really frustrating to see how our young talents at the mid 20's are struggling with their forms in batting. All these fascinating young players have all the talent and also a good track records in the Age group/A-Team/Domestic levels. They all get praised highly and even perform great in their debut matches and in the early stage of their career.

This problem is more obvious in our batsmen rather than bowlers.International Career of player like Nafis Iqbal is in danger. Ashraful simply has a record of the youngest test centurion on debut...now see where he is heading. Players like Aftab has fascinating beginning to their internatinal career for first few matches... but with time, things like 'expectation' and 'match pressure' start to get into their heads. The eagerness for 'heroism' run through their blood. Symptoms of a laterst addition to this list of young bloods gone infected are showing in Shahriar Nafees also sometimes.

What is wrong with the structure of our national cricket? Why is it so poor to train the players in handling things professionally? The lack of a professional and competetive domestic structure is surely a factor here. Also counts the lack of a proper transition phase from U-19 to the national side. There must be some problem with the psychological training phase of the national and pre-national-team phase of the players.

What I fear is that the same thing will keep happening with the good number of younger talents coming in pipeline in near future...if we don't look into this crisis and find a way to minimize the gradual decline of form of e fresh newcomer into the team. The struggle of the players who are from the bright U-19 side already in the national team... yeat started to suffer (Nafis Iqbal, Aftab, Ash..) are surely a symptom of the underlying problem in our training/domestic structure. As if the BD national team is the Bermuda Triangle where all the maturity of the debutants disappear with time!

sadi
August 15, 2006, 03:54 PM
Good point. Very nicely put. I guess our coach has to take some sort of responsibility for this.

Tigers_eye
August 15, 2006, 04:01 PM
Yes, our national team is exceptionally young when comparing with the other test nations (except Zim). These boys need constant supervision unlike the grown men in other teams. They need to be monitored and reminded of their duty day in and day out. A batting coach of a high calibre should fix some of the problems. This would stop the revolving door in the national side once for all.

Spitfire_x86
August 15, 2006, 05:05 PM
The BD National Team -A 'Bermuda Triangle' for young talents?
Another possibility is, all of those young talents were overrated in the first place (which I think is more likely)

fjahan
August 15, 2006, 06:55 PM
Another possibility is, all of those young talents were overrated in the first place (which I think is more likely) Thats very true. New players are too overrated from their performances at 19 level and below par domestic level. Living in UK, There are so many young class batsman like moin Ali, bilal shafayat, ravi bopara who have all represented England u19 and are playing for their counties, but never have they been overrated for their talent, rather there seen as bright prospects with some talents and rest is more of confidence and experiance. All these mentioned players have all qualities to get in to BD national team perform..

baisab
August 15, 2006, 07:53 PM
interesting analogy, but i think you have a point, i also think that profetionalism (or the lack of it) is a major factor.

tas
August 15, 2006, 09:42 PM
where the u19s are thrust into the national side, here in Australia or in England, the u19s are on the fringes of 1st class cricket. They mature for minimum 4-5 seasons in domestic cricket before they even get mentioned for a possible crack at the national team.


Bottom line - Bangladesh do not have the depth in 1st class cricket to allow the u19 kids to mature before they are considered for national selection.

sadi
August 15, 2006, 10:00 PM
Sometimes they are over-rated yeah but the question remains for those youngsters who definately got talents and already had their impact on international lebel... for example, ashraful... he is overrated but at the same time he is still an underacheiver no matter from which way you look at it... we need to find out the reasons why...

Ahmed_B
August 16, 2006, 12:13 AM
where the u19s are thrust into the national side, here in Australia or in England, the u19s are on the fringes of 1st class cricket. They mature for minimum 4-5 seasons in domestic cricket before they even get mentioned for a possible crack at the national team.

Bottom line - Bangladesh do not have the depth in 1st class cricket to allow the u19 kids to mature before they are considered for national selection.
Exactly!

Its very well-known fact that courntries like Australia/England/SA have strong domestic format and infrastructure. And among the sub-continental teams, SL & IND also have a very good domestic structure. Pakistan is probably weakest among the top-3 subcontinental teams in domestic cricket... and look at their inconsistant form as a team. BD is yet to establish a proper & professional domestic cricket... and unless we do that soon, we fans will have to keep calling for the heads of players who cant find their consistancy (not just aged players.. even the younger one's).. and will always have to be asking for 'fresh blood'.

There is no real reason to believe that our youngest generation of players (who are coming even after the 'Aftab-Ash-SNafees' generation) are a different species and they will change the face of our cricket all by themselves. To ask for that will really be asking them to move a mountain.

Are we building an infrastructure that will help them to mature from the U-19 level to consistant performers in international level? The answer is 'NO'.
Then how we expect them to do better and be more consistant than the currently playing young guys?

What can be achieved by hiering a 'High Profile' coach (currently Dav) alone?
The answer is 'Nothing more than surprise wins against strong teams as well as shocking defeats/struggle against weaker teams'.

Suggestion: Let fresh blood enter the national side soon... but keep your expectations low about the likes of Farhad Reza, Sakib, Mushfiq.. and many more to come soon in the squad. The 'Aftab group of companies' were not any less talented than the 'Mushfiq group of companies' !!

Mr-Cricket
August 16, 2006, 12:20 AM
Exactly!

Its very well-known fact that courntries like Australia/England/SA have strong domestic format and infrastructure. And among the sub-continental teams, SL & IND also have a very good domestic structure. Pakistan is probably weakest among the top-3 subcontinental teams in domestic cricket... and look at their inconsistant form as a team. BD is yet to establish a proper & professional domestic cricket... and unless we do that soon, we fans will have to keep calling for the heads of players who cant find their consistancy (not just aged players.. even the younger one's).. and will always have to be asking for 'fresh blood'.

There is no real reason to believe that our youngest generation of players (who are coming even after the 'Aftab-Ash-SNafees' generation) are a different species and they will change the face of our cricket all by themselves. To ask for that will really be asking them to move a mountain.

Are we building an infrastructure that will help them to mature from the U-19 level to consistant performers in international level? The answer is 'NO'.
Then how we expect them to do better and be more consistant than the currently playing young guys?

What can be achieved by hiering a 'High Profile' coach (currently Dav) alone?
The answer is 'Nothing more than surprise wins against strong teams as well as shocking defeats/struggle against weaker teams'.

Suggestion: Let fresh blood enter the national side soon... but keep your expectations low about the likes of Farhad Reza, Sakib, Mushfiq.. and many more to come soon in the squad. The 'Aftab group of companies' were not any less talented than the 'Mushfiq group of companies' !!
Very well said.:up:

Spitfire_x86
August 16, 2006, 03:58 AM
where the u19s are thrust into the national side, here in Australia or in England, the u19s are on the fringes of 1st class cricket. They mature for minimum 4-5 seasons in domestic cricket before they even get mentioned for a possible crack at the national team.

Bottom line - Bangladesh do not have the depth in 1st class cricket to allow the u19 kids to mature before they are considered for national selection.
First class cricket is not everything. Good exposure in FC cricket can help one to understand match situation better and increase ability to deal with pressure.

India gave Test/ODI cap to many players in the last decade who had impressive FC record. But most of them were proved not good enough for international level and got lost into oblivion after few matches. Graeme Hick has 100+ FC centuries, but his success in Test/ODI was limited.

How many FC matches Sachin played when he made his test debut? If he were born in Australia/England, then he would have to wait few more years and you would say that he owes a lot to FC cricket for his success. Pakistan's FC structure is not great, yet they have produced so many great cricketers.

Most of our current players just don't have "the thing" necessary for international cricket. Ashraful is not Tendulkar, Mashrafee is not McGrath, Enamul jnr. is not Warne. End of the story.

tas
August 16, 2006, 05:56 AM
Someone like Matthew Hayden was thrust into test cricket before he proved himself at FC level. He struggled. After 5 years toiling in 1st class cricket he finally go another go and started destroying sides.

Michael Hussey didnt get a go until 30. He played a solid decade of FC cricket before he got a go.

Even Ponting who was regarded as an absolute freak (earmarked as early as 11 as potential Aus captain) made his FC debut at 17 and played 3 seasons of FC cricket (generally regarded as the exception rather than the rule). The only player who never really proved himself at FC level is Michael Clarke, who is struggling in Test cricket now anyway

There is a reason why Australia is the best team in the world (and England now as well). Kids have prove themselves. Well that the way it works around here anyway

India is completely different - Tendulkar - exception rather than the rule. Tendulkar is a once in a generation player anyway.

What I am saying is that you cannot underestimate the importance of FC cricket - it is crucial in developing solid international players.

Spitfire_x86
August 16, 2006, 06:17 AM
The only player who never really proved himself at FC level is Michael Clarke, who is struggling in Test cricket now anyway.

There is a reason why Australia is the best team in the world (and England now as well). Kids have prove themselves. Well that the way it works around here anyway

India is completely different - Tendulkar - exception rather than the rule. Tendulkar is a once in a generation player anyway.

What I am saying is that you cannot underestimate the importance of FC cricket - it is crucial in developing solid international players.
His "struggle" is nowhere near the struggle of our Ashraful/Aftab. In fact, if they were as inconsistent as Clarke, then they would be considered Tendulkar/Lara by our fans. Kambli can be considered as a model of "talented underachiever". But he could play international cricket forever, if he played for Bangladesh.

England's had same FC Cricket structure in 90's and in this decade. But the performance difference between the 90's teams and current team is huge. We can't follow the "Australia formula" blindly. Our success will come in traditional subcontinent style, not in their style.

Our FC cricket definately has room for improvement though. We need four day matches and need to pay the cricketers well enough for playing FC matches so that they take FC cricket seriously and make their living from it. But FC cricket will never help the players who are not good enough for international cricket in the first place, it can only help the ones who are already good enough for international cricket.

Spitfire_x86
August 16, 2006, 06:22 AM
BTW, Mashrafee is not a product of FC cricket. Neither is Wasim Akram or Irfan Pathan. And no amount of FC cricket will make Irfan Pathan as good as Wasim Akram

sadi
August 16, 2006, 08:50 AM
You both have a point here. You need first class cricket to fine tune someone's talent but the talent has to be there in the first place. First class cricket may make one more matured since he will be playing so many games but he has to have it in him. Thats where the problem lies I believe in Bangladesh. Some players are overrated and don't have it in them while the other ones are not still matured or ready enough to play international cricket. They are thrown into the mix and when they fail to deliver, they are disgarded as garbage. We need proper first class structure where our talented ones like Aftab or Ashraful will play and prove themselves and score consistently before making it to highest level.

thebest
August 16, 2006, 10:24 AM
You both have a point here. You need first class cricket to fine tune someone's talent but the talent has to be there in the first place. First class cricket may make one more matured since he will be playing so many games but he has to have it in him. Thats where the problem lies I believe in Bangladesh. Some players are overrated and don't have it in them while the other ones are not still matured or ready enough to play international cricket. They are thrown into the mix and when they fail to deliver, they are disgarded as garbage. We need proper first class structure where our talented ones like Aftab or Ashraful will play and prove themselves and score consistently before making it to highest level.
Well Said
You don't need Tendulakor to play FC, but you need Kamblis to play FC to shine in test. Unfortunatley none of our batsman are not in class of Kambli. So we need a strong first class.
I would not say Mash in the class of Akram, but definately he is on par with Pathan. But he also need to play in a strong FC system to hone his skill like bowling death.
One of the bad thing of our Test status and subsequent FC program resulted in lessening the importance of Dhaka Premiar league. if these kids could play in that environment, they could take more easily the presurre of tight games. Because during those days playing for Abahoni and Mohameddan was really presurre game. That is why Pilot, Rafiq shines in presurre sitution because they are the last of that generation.

Fazal
August 16, 2006, 12:37 PM
They are thrown into the mix and when they fail to deliver, they are disgarded as garbage. We need proper first class structure where our talented ones like Aftab or Ashraful will play and prove themselves and score consistently before making it to highest level.

I agree in general term. But I think bringing Ash (official age: 22+ years) as an example is a bad one. If after playing 65 test innings and 76 ODI, if someone doesn't know how to learn from his mistakes, why people think some few more FC games here and there will suddenly fix his head? For other young players I can understand the logic.

Plus I would point out one more thing. If someone try to compare the way Ash, Rajin, and in some extent Nafis and Aftab were brought into the national team versus the way they are bringing Sakib, Shahadat, Rahim and to some extent Reza, I think they need to review their logic further. Even its not perfect, still the new breed of players are better prepared and well experienced in lower level than Ash co when they first came to the national team. So their (the new breed) possibility of success is much higher.

Again I am not saying the current system is perfect, and agree the improtance of more FC experience.

sadi
August 16, 2006, 01:22 PM
Plus I would point out one more thing. If someone try to compare the way Ash, Rajin, and in some extent Nafis and Aftab were brought into the national team versus the way they are bringing Sakib, Shahadat, Rahim and to some extent Reza, I think they need to review their logic further. Even its not perfect, still the new breed of players are better prepared and well experienced in lower level than Ash co when they first came to the national team. So their (the new breed) possibility of success is much higher.



I understand your views and thats something we have to deal with until we have a proper first class structure set up. Sakib, Forhad are maybe a little better prepared since they have toured some more countries but still the fact remains that they have very little quality first class cricket experience.

Now, what do we do? Should we wait and give these youngsters two three years time to play in our first class tournament which is a joke anyways or draft them fresh into the national team?

If we had a decent first class tournament, players like Ashraful would have to prove himself before come into the team and for them to prove, they had to be consistent. We wouldn't have to wait 70+ ODI to check whether this guy can learn something from his mistake or no.

cricket_dorshok
August 16, 2006, 01:28 PM
If we had a decent first class tournament, players like Ashraful would have to prove himself before come into the team and for them to prove, they had to be consistent. We wouldn't have to wait 70+ ODI to check whether this guy can learn something from his mistake or no.

Not only that if we had a decent first class tournament, we might not depend on worhtless talent brand Ash, we would have a lot of decent consistent performers in the pipeline of national side.

Ahmed_B
August 16, 2006, 02:12 PM
Interesting elaborations from everyone. Just wanted to add one more point in this whole discussion about developing young talents into mature responsibles. And that is...Money Talks!.

Yes, I am referring to the shamefull amount of money that our cricketers(outside the national team) get by playing the domestic/national league. Payment standard is surely a big part of professional sports infrastructure... and that is quite low in BD cricket. We have a payment structure that ensures financial security to only the players who can finally get to the National team or the Cricket Board payment pool. But the rest of the candidates are left with quite unprofessional level of financial support.

A good level of financial return would surely encourage the whole domestic cricket players pool to set themselves in a high professional mindset.. trying to improve themselves in perfection and thus improving their value as a suitable candidate for the big clubs and the big tournaments. That would fuel up a stronger competetion among the cricket professionals throughout the country which would only increase the overall standard of our players.

I'm not really sure if our Cricket Board has any total approach towards the development of the whole structure like that. So far.. we are still totally dependant on the 'High Performance Program' supported by the Aussi cricket board which is restricted in the BKSP. I really wonder if any of the other top Test playing nations are solely dependand on limited foreign-aided HP programs ... and not putting enough thoughts into school cricket and nationwide league cricket.

This system might work for the time being.. providing us good age-group players for the future.. but we need to develop school cricket to find more inputs for the HP program.. as well as we need Competetive National League cricket to mature the found talents through the HP programs. The steps are more like this:

1.School level players >>2.HP/Similar development programs>>3.Strong League Cricket>>4.International level Games.

So far.. we are working on No.2 & No.4... What about 1 & 3?

HawkEye000
August 16, 2006, 02:28 PM
1.School level players >>2.HP/Similar development programs>>3.Strong League Cricket>>4.International level Games.



At the senior level it should be something like this

1. Club Cricket ----> 2. Divisional 2nd XI Chp. ---> 3. NCL --> 4. 'A' team ---> 5. Ntl team

At the junior level...

1. School cricket ---> 2. U-17 Div. Chp ---> 3. U-19 Div. Chp.---> 4. Ntl U-19 team ---> 5. Academy

Now we have just one developement program run by BCCB but ideally each division should have its own development programs run by the regional cricket associations which don't exist in Bangladesh.

PoorFan
August 17, 2006, 04:28 AM
Yes, <SMALL>quality </SMALL>FC cricket is a vital thing to develop our young talents. Considering BD style 'mentality' and 'professionalism' it may take another decade to get there ( <SMALL>quality </SMALL>FC cricket ). In the mean time the world will not wait for us to get that standard or progress. So it's also important to work hard on 'producing maximum result' from existing players. For example we got some new prospective in the team and we should do every possible thing not to let them become NARA ( Nafis, Aftab, Rajin, Ash ).

I seriously believe only coaching ( mental and strategic, not technical ) is the quick solution left for us which can do a lot on this regard. I also believe that current coaching is not working with those boys, rather I fear those new prospective may become NARA if current coaching goes on couple of years. I am not blaming current coach and his ability, but it's simply not working with those boys.

Since we have few more prospective in the line like Mehrab Jr, very soon most of the young players will be the ex U19, and surely those NARA will become the minority in the team. In that situation I believe a strict coach like McInnes will be helpful for our team, because most of the young is his ex student, and already have good understanding & respect to eachother, and those NARA will have no choice but listen and obey his words and thoughts. A bunch of school boy need a strict 'head master', not a high profile 'professor' from a famous university. Mentality, approach and commitment they all need to learn, not technique, in that sense a workhorse like McInnes will be helpful for our team I think.

Having said that, we don't have much time before WC 2007 to go for a change like that ( though I wished a long time ago ), but after WC we seriously have to think on coaching these young players and bring the maximum result from them, and of course including NARA. It's not nice to hear that our coach says " ... No point to sit and talk anymore, we had lot of talk already ...", which clearly suggest he is done, and I don't blame him.

The bottom line is, the world will not wait for us and we must have to progress with whatever resource we have, no way going back but move forward and constantly. In a long range I agree with all of you that we need <SMALL>quality </SMALL>FC cricket sooner is better.