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View Full Version : The Myth of Khaled Mashud in Numbers: Part One


Miraz
August 19, 2006, 08:15 AM
We have several myths about Khaled Masud Pilot and his fans repeats them several times in any discussion regarding his position in the playing XI.

Let's list the arguments first ..
1. Khaled Mashud is best wicketkeeper in Asia.
2. Khaled Mashud puts value to his wicket & he is a fighter.
3. He is a collapse stopper
4. He imparts stability to fragile BD batting order.
5. We need him and without him (if mushfiq playes or anyone replaces him) we will all out within 25-35 overs.
And lets see how these myths go..

At first let's see the career statistcis of Khaled Mashud

Batting and fielding averages<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR align=right bgColor=#cccccc height=17><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap align=left>class</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap>mat</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap>inns</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap>no</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap>runs</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap>hs</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap>ave</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap>bf</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap>sr</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap>100</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap>50</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap>4s</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap>6s</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap>ct</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap>st</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top align=right><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap align=left>Tests</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap>41</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap>79</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap>9</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap>1361</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap>103*</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap>19.44</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap>3970</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap>34.28</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap>1</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap>3</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap>145</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap>1</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap>75</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap>8</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top align=right><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap align=left>ODIs</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap>120</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap>107</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap>26</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap>1777</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap>71*</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap>21.93</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap>3220</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap>55.18</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap>0</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap>7</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap></TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap></TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap>87</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap>32</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

1. Khaled Mashud is best wicketkeeper in Asia.
Now, what is the criteria for the best wicketkeeper, I assume no of dismissals (as one of his fan recently started a thread regarding his 2nd place in 2006 based on number of dismissals). From the career stats it can be seen
Khaled Mashud has total 83 dismissals in tests and 119 dismissals in ODI. In tests he has 2.075 dismissals per test and in ODI he grabbed 0.99 dismissal in ODI. Is this a record of the best wicket keeper of Asia who doesn't even have 1 dismissal per ODI? Now let's compare him with Sngakkara who is undoubtedly a very good wicketkeeper and should be the main competitor for Pilot.

Sangakkara has 144 dismissal in 47 test played as keeper, which means 2.61/test and 172 dismissal from 130 ODI'splayed as keeper, i.e 1.32 dismissal/ODI. From the stat it is clear that he is no way near to Sangakkara in terms of Wicketkeepinng ability forget batting. I have taken also a look at no. of byes conceded by them, in a randomly selected 5 tests KM conceded 5.4 byes/innings wihile Sanggakara conceded only 1.2 byes/test. Surprise surprise KM has even worse record as a wicketkeeper when I compared him with Kamran Akmal who is not at all considered as a supreme wicketkeeper. Kamran has 3.88 dismissal/test. So KM is the best wicketkeeper of Asia is simply a myth. He is defnitely the best wicketkeeper of Bangladesh till date.

2. Khaled Mashud puts value to his wicket and he is a fighter
3. Khaled Mashud is a collapse stopper.
3. He imparts stabilty to fragile BD batting order.
The first part is probably true as KM always puts value to his own wicket and regardless of team's situation he plays like a snail. Now let's see what we find from his career stats. In 41 tests he played 79 innings and out of that 79 innings he was out 40 times scoring less than 15 of which 33 times he was out scoring less than 10.
Well, lets see what happened in ODI, Out of 120 ODI he batted in 107 ODI's and out of that 107 innings 53 times he was out scoring less than 15 of which 36 times he was out scoring less than 10 runs.

From the stats, it is quite evident he is not a capable batsman in either form of the game and forget about the fighter he is not a simple threat to opponenets. In most occasions got out cheaply. And a player who gets out scoring less than 15 in 50% matches he played and scoring less than 10 in 40% matches he played should no longer be treated as collapse stopper.

And it is clear he imparts more fragility to BD batting order, no way he is stabilising it.


2. Khaled Mashud puts value to his wicket and he is a fighter
3. Khaled Mashud is a collapse stopper.
3. He imparts stabilty to fragile BD batting order.

So all these three are simple myths.

Now the last one We need him and without him (if mushfiq playes or anyone replaces him) we will all out within 25-35 overs.
For the last one I want to bring those matches we won in ODI as we assume without his contribution it was not possible for us to bat full 50 overs and win matches.

Bangladesh won 20 ODI's so far in which KM was playing. Out of that 20 ODI in 8 ODI Khaled Mashud did not bat (ufff!!! still we managed to bat 50 overs and won matches, umm... very injustice to KM, we should have lost these matces), in 7 ODI innings he scored less than 15, in rest 5 matches he scored some decent runs (and those scores came against Hong Kong, Kenya and Zimbabwe).

Isn't it too much to say without KM we will be all out within 25-35 overs when we hardly received his service with bat in our wins. So, the last one is another Myth.

Finally all the arguments for Pilot ends as Myth.

Actually fan club of Khaed Mashud live in a world of mythology /folklore where Pilot, the ugly noble knight helps the beautiful princess from the clutch of evil prince.
(Last paragraph courtesy - thebest)

israr
August 19, 2006, 08:28 AM
Iam in a big dilemma, KM or Mushfiq?

Rubu
August 19, 2006, 08:51 AM
Iam in a big dilemma, KM or Mushfiq?

Why mushfiq? What has he done? Has he proven yet that he deserves a place in national team?

I am not a fan of Khaled Masud. In fact, I could never forget him staying out of hotel late night before the WC kenya match. But that is not the question here. The question is, do we want to drag rahim before hi is ready for national team and spoil him? I think in order to groom him properly, we need to give me more time and be very careful about how we bring him in. we do not need him to disappear in 'barmuda traingle'.

then who? does not matter. if pilot is doing the job ok, let him play. or get someone else who is ready for it.

mafizraju
August 19, 2006, 09:05 AM
You need bowlers to creat chance for the wicket keeper to dismiss. Now it would have been interesting if a stat could be seen on how many chance has got against how much he has wasted. Not interested in taking about batting at all. I think he is not so different from other batsmen of the team. As long as the top order doesnot click properly our batting debacles will not end.......

Sovik
August 19, 2006, 09:05 AM
you are talking about dismissals. it depends on the bowlers to bowl some deliveries that would create some chances.

khaled masud is ageing. and he is painful to watch and he will be replaced sooner or later but he is the best wicket keeper in bd. and that is his main duty. and we are talking about mushfiq without seeing him play. he just played 10 first class matches. let him play some national league mathces.

talking about national league, pilot and mushfiq are from rajshahi division. so musfiq won't get any chance to keep wicket as long as pilot plays for rajshahi.

Miraz
August 19, 2006, 09:10 AM
Not interested in taking about batting at all. I think he is not so different from other batsmen of the team. As long as the top order doesnot click properly our batting debacles will not end.......

Its very different my friend.

And more importantly Pilot fan club tries to portray Piot as cool, fighter and a player who never gets out cheaply and accuses others. At least from first post it is clear he is worse in every respect.

So, no more myths.

Miraz
August 19, 2006, 09:15 AM
you are talking about dismissals. it depends on the bowlers to bowl some deliveries that would create some chances.


Hmm.. now dismissals are no longer the criteria to judge Pilot's wicketkeeping supremacy.

I can remember just a couple of days earlier all Pilot fan were very happy as he was second in the list of wicket keeper based on dismissals for the year 2006. Then you have to agree they were very wrong :) . If records are in Pilot's favor all credit goes to him and when its against, its the naughty bowlers, isn't it? :lol:

Now, what about conceding bye runs :)

Mr-Cricket
August 19, 2006, 09:27 AM
you are talking about dismissals. it depends on the bowlers to bowl some deliveries that would create some chances.
Exactly. You have to consider that our bowlers, collectively, are far weaker than those from SL, Pakistan & India. So in that regards, both in terms of dismissals & extras, you would have to expect that Mashud's career stats will not look as pretty as that of Wicketkeepers from these other nations. It is simply one of those things that is very difficult to compare (sort of like trying to compare quality players/teams of different eras).

But, as you said Miraz, one thing that is certain is that Khaled Mashud is probably the best Wicketkeeper Bangladesh has ever produced. The fact is, unfortunately, there are no better options at our disposal at this stage (in terms of a permanent quick fix). In terms of developed Wicketkeepers, well, there are none. There is a large generation gap between Mashud and our next best option, Rahim. I find this extremely hard to swallow.

And speaking of Rahim - he is still very young, and must be gradually eased into first the ODI, then Test sides. So in that regards, I do agree that the only way for this to happen is for him to play games. But we must use him sparingly, especially at this age, and considering that he is a Wicketkeeper, a potential future Bangladesh Captain, and that his best days are no doubt still in front of him. We must avoid player burn out. In my book, its a little short term pain, for much long term gain.

The potential benefits in sticking with Mashud for a further 6-12 months far outweigh the consequences, at this stage anyway. Regardless, there are far bigger fish to fry in my book. Such as the ongoing issue on whether or not to give Mr Ashraful an extended 'rest' from both sides. I just wish this issue of prematurely killing off Mashud's career would finally be put to bed. Somehow, and it is quite unfortunate really, I just cannot see this happening.

Mr-Cricket
August 19, 2006, 09:48 AM
Now, what about conceding bye runs :)
I think Inspector Gadget's extendable arms would struggle to reach some of the wides Mortaza and company cough up on a regular basis. Seriously though, at Mashud's age, you must forgive him for conceding the odd bye (which he may or may not have saved 3-4 years ago).

I mean Adam Gilchrist's reflexes aren't quite as good as they used to be. His phenomenal Test Batting average has gone down the gurgler - since July 20, 2005 Gilchrist has averaged 26.88 in 17 Test matches. Count out Bangladesh and it's 22.43 with no 100's. No ones calling for his head (at least not at this stage anyway).

It's all a part and parcel of the game.

Miraz
August 19, 2006, 10:03 AM
I think Inspector Gadget's extendable arms would struggle to reach some of the wides Mortaza and company cough up on a regular basis. Seriously though, at Mashud's age, you must forgive him for conceding the odd bye (which he may or may not have saved 3-4 years ago).



Dear Mr. Cricket, you should have known by now, in those cases the runs will be counted as wide, not bye :)

If a wide ball runs way for four it is recorded as 4Wide :)

It seems most of you are concerned about dismissals and trying to defend Pilot, fine.

This indicates you have understood the Myths surrounding his batting :lol:

Mr-Cricket
August 19, 2006, 10:26 AM
Of the two posts I have just posted, you've just chosen to highlight the one line I made a light hearted, passing comment. In terms of the byes issue, I did not deny Mashud may have a problem - as you would have noticed in the following sentence. I did however qualify that at Mashud's age, deteriorating reflexes is a physical condition one cannot wilfully bypass. "You should have known that by now".

Nevertheless, if you had read the earlier post, you would have noticed that I was, in part, siding with you in the issue of easing his only successor, Rahim, into the side. Albeit sparingly. And that, my friend, was my main point. No one argues that Mashud's batting is not up to scratch, but then, neither are the performances of our top 6 batsman either (really, we could argue this till' the cows come home).

What I'm saying is, sure, experiment with Rahim, give him match practice, but, do it at the right times. And don't, under any circumstances, and at this stage of his career, throw him directly into the deep end (we missed the boat in not using him more regularly during the 'Safari tour'). Use him sparingly. Don't be too critical. After all, his best days are ahead of him, and he stands to gain more if he is eased into the side, rather than forced. Both physically and mentally.

thebest
August 19, 2006, 10:35 AM
Miraz bhai,
carry on. It would be difficult for you to prove. Remember how hard time Spitty and I got when we started 'No more JO club'.
I think may be one year ago, in numbers game there was article on byes and dropped chances by W/K. You may check that one or ask for that in cricinfo. For Mr Cricket and Sovik, even in the 2nd ODI againest the Kenyan he missed a couple of chances though he held 5 catches.
It is very difficult to put the numbers on qualitative value. But you can go in detail for example how many partnership he formed and wht is his contribution specially in 2006 when his batting performance is seriously deterioted. To me the best position for him to bat now is no 12.

imtiaz82
August 19, 2006, 10:41 AM
I am indifferent about Khaled Mashud but the thing is, if we use statistics probably every other Bangladeshi player will look really really bad. Take Mohammad Ashraful, Aftab for batting, both have batting average a good bowler would be proud off :) Yet they are considered best prospect for Bangladesh..

Now if we consider the stats of Mohammad Rafiq or even Mashraffe, I am sure they are equally bad.(if we excluse matches against extremely weak team Kenya).

I think only Habibul Bashar has a test batting average that can be considered above average..

Miraz
August 19, 2006, 10:46 AM
And speaking of Rahim - he is still very young, and must be gradually eased into first the ODI, then Test sides. So in that regards, I do agree that the only way for this to happen is for him to play games. But we must use him sparingly, especially at this age, and considering that he is a Wicketkeeper, a potential future Bangladesh Captain, and that his best days are no doubt still in front of him.

What I'm saying is, sure, experiment with Rahim, give him match practice, but, do it at the right times. And don't, under any circumstances, and at this stage of his career, throw him directly into the deep end (we missed the boat in not using him more regularly during the 'Safari tour'). Use him sparingly. Don't be too critical. After all, his best days are ahead of him, and he stands to gain more if he is eased into the side, rather than forced. Both physically and mentally.

Dear Mr. Cricket, I understand your point. If you have time, you can have a look at Tatenda Taibus career, he started his career at 18 years of age (younger than current Rahim) and he replaced Andy Flower, who is by any standard much bigger name than Pilot. I know there were some problem in Zim cricket in that time although all players except Andy played in his debut test.

Now, I want to make one thing clear, it is important for us to immediately replace Mashud in ODI's. Mashud is experienced and Rahim is young, these word really do not carry any value. Most of the players start their career at young ages and when anyone starts he will be definitely inexperienced and will gain experience with time. In tests, we have some inactive time, if Mushfiq proves in ODI's that he ia ready to take the button from Pilot, we should arrange a farewell party for Pilot which he deserves. Otherwise, we have to wait for few more tests before the final call.

israr
August 19, 2006, 10:48 AM
One question: What was KM doing the night before the Kenya match at WC?

Miraz
August 19, 2006, 10:51 AM
I am indifferent about Khaled Mashud but the thing is, if we use statistics probably every other Bangladeshi player will look really really bad. Take Mohammad Ashraful, Aftab for batting, both have batting average a good bowler would be proud off :) Yet they are considered best prospect for Bangladesh..
.

Mohammad Ashraful and Aftab is accused of throwing wickets and reckless shots and there is no myth surrounding them. In every case when we accuse them we praise Pilot :) , now it seems he is the worst among the three.

Now, even after playing carelessly Ash and Aftab combinedly won 10-15 matches, how many matches our beloved Pilot have won for us??

(I am 100% with you that Ash and Aftab should be more responsible and play more sensibly)

Mr-Cricket
August 19, 2006, 11:06 AM
Now, even after playing carelessly Ash and Aftab combinedly won 10-15 matches, how many matches our beloved Pilot have won for us??

Batting at number 7, it is extremely difficult to win games off of your own bat. Not that I'm saying Mashud is capable of doing so were he to be promoted. But I felt I had to defend him, in one way or another.

I have dug up Mashud's fielding stats during our 20 wins so you can have a gander. I'm sure you'd struggle to argue that Mashud has not stepped up, in this aspect of his game, during our wins.

Mat Dis Ct St CtF CtW MD1 MD2 MCt MSt C/M S/M 3d 4d

unfiltered 120 119 87 32 0 87 5 4 3 2 0.72 0.26 9 3
filtered 20 32 20 12 0 20 5 4 3 2 1.00 0.60 2 2

C/M = average catches per match, S/M = average stumpings per match

Mr-Cricket
August 19, 2006, 11:11 AM
Dear Mr. Cricket, I understand your point. If you have time, you can have a look at Tatenda Taibus career, he started his career at 18 years of age (younger than current Rahim) and he replaced Andy Flower, who is by any standard much bigger name than Pilot. I know there were some problem in Zim cricket in that time although all players except Andy played in his debut test.

Now, I want to make one thing clear, it is important for us to immediately replace Mashud in ODI's. Mashud is experienced and Rahim is young, these word really do not carry any value. Most of the players start their career at young ages and when anyone starts he will be definitely inexperienced and will gain experience with time. In tests, we have some inactive time, if Mushfiq proves in ODI's that he ia ready to take the button from Pilot, we should arrange a farewell party for Pilot which he deserves. Otherwise, we have to wait for few more tests before the final call.
These are all valid points, and I'm begining to see your side to the argument.

One question though. In your opinion, do you really think that, at this age, and at this point in his career, Mushfiqur Rahim is prepared to tackle the rigours of the ICC Champions Trophy & World Cup 2007 on his own?

Miraz
August 19, 2006, 11:16 AM
These are all valid points, and I'm begining to see your side to the argument.

One question though. In your opinion, do you really think that, at this age, and at this point in his career, Mushfiqur Rahim is prepared to tackle the rigours of the ICC Champions Trophy & World Cup 2007 on his own?

If our selectors utlize him in ICCT and home series against Zimbo's I am sure you'll find the answer.:)

cricket_dorshok
August 19, 2006, 11:40 AM
Now, even after playing carelessly Ash and Aftab combinedly won 10-15 matches, how many matches our beloved Pilot have won for us??


Pilot's batting performance in those matches he played and BD won
Mat I NO Runs HS1 HS2 HS3 Ave 100 50 0
filtered 20 12 5 237 51 48* 39 33.85 0 1 1

Pilot's fielding performance in those matches he played and BD won

Mat Dis Ct St CtF CtW MD1 MD2 MCt MSt C/M S/M 3d 4d
filtered 20 32 20 12 0 20 5 4 3 2 1.00 0.60 2 2

Ashraful's batting performance in those matches he played and BD won
Mat I NO Runs HS1 HS2 HS3 Ave 100 50 0
filtered 17 14 2 409 100 67* 51* 34.08 1 3 0

As a better wicket keeper and a batsman at position #7, is his position so questionable compare to our most 'talent brand' batsman????
One more thing, Aftab is way better than Ashra-fool. Its Aftab who won more match for BD not Ash.

Miraz
August 19, 2006, 11:52 AM
Pilot's batting performance in those matches he played and BD won
Mat I NO Runs HS1 HS2 HS3 Ave 100 50 0
filtered 20 12 5 237 51 48* 39 33.85 0 1 1

Pilot's fielding performance in those matches he played and BD won

Mat Dis Ct St CtF CtW MD1 MD2 MCt MSt C/M S/M 3d 4d
filtered 20 32 20 12 0 20 5 4 3 2 1.00 0.60 2 2

Ashraful's batting performance in those matches he played and BD won
Mat I NO Runs HS1 HS2 HS3 Ave 100 50 0
filtered 17 14 2 409 100 67* 51* 34.08 1 3 0

As a better wicket keeper and a batsman at position #7, is his position so questionable compare to our most 'talent brand' batsman????
One more thing, Aftab is way better than Ashra-fool. Its Aftab who won more match for BD not Ash.

Cricket_Dorshok, don't just look ate the average as it is skewed by his 5 not out score. He did not bat in 8 occasions. So, in 12 innings he was not out 5 times and that skews his average.

Let's see his runs in 12 innings..

0, 15*, 11*, 26, 20, 11*, 51, 2*, 1, 39, 48*, 13

It doesn't look that pretty like average of 33.85

Those 51, 39 and 48* scores are against Kenya and Zimbo's

To have a comparison in 20 matches Pilot scored 237 runs while in 17 matches Asraful scored 409 runs, this is a much better representation if we talk about contribution.

cricket_dorshok
August 19, 2006, 11:53 AM
Ashraful's ODI career
Mat I NO Runs HS1 HS2 HS3 Ave 100 50 0
76 72 3 1391 100 94 67* 20.15 1 9 10
If above career stat is sufficient to be in the team as a top order batsman in the team, then why not the followings for batting position #7 along with his world class keeping.

Pilot's ODI career
Batting:
Mat I NO Runs HS1 HS2 HS3 Ave 100 50 0
120 107 26 1777 71* 54* 54 21.93 0 7 8
Fielding:
Mat Dis Ct St CtF CtW MD1 MD2 MCt MSt C/M S/M 3d 4d
120 119 87 32 0 87 5 4 3 2 0.72 0.26 9 3

Should not we adress the problem for the first one????????

Miraz
August 19, 2006, 12:02 PM
World cricket acknowledges win aginst Australia, India, Srilanka, Pakistan much higher than wins agsint Kenya and Zimbawe.

In all those big occasions (except pakistan, as he started after that), its Ashraful who had significant contrubtion.

In wins against Australia, India, Srilanka and original Zimbabwe side back in 2004, Ashraful averages 76.66.

I think you now understand the vallue of Ashraful in our team. It's unfortunate he is not consistent.

And most importantly poor performance by any top order batsman never justifies Pilots poor show with batting.

cricket_dorshok
August 19, 2006, 12:05 PM
Cricket_Dorshok, don't just look ate the average as it is skewed by his 5 not out score. He did not bat in 8 occasions. So, in 12 innings he was not out 5 times and that skews his average.

Let's see his runs in 12 innings..

0, 15*, 11*, 26, 20, 11*, 51, 2*, 1, 39, 48*, 13

It doesn't look that pretty like average of 33.85

Those 51, 39 and 48* scores are against Kenya and Zimbo's

To have a comparison in 20 matches Pilot scored 237 runs while in 17 matches Asraful scored 409 runs, this is a much better representation if we talk about contribution.
Why do you expect same score from Pilot. As a late order batsman, is not reasonable along with his keeping.

Those 51, 39 and 48* scores are against Kenya and Zimbo's

Do you really think, we would have won without these runs even against ZIM, KEN!!!!
Why don't you think, without these contributions, we might not win first ODI series, we might not whitewashed KEN for the first time and we might have more humiliation in ZIM. So, a win is always a win. You know long we had to wait for a win against KEN even!!!!!!

akabir77
August 19, 2006, 12:10 PM
I have only two thing to say
It is very stupid to say pilot is good or bad by looking at stats... Cuase there r many things involve which is not considered
but its more stupid to support him if you have seen his pathetic batting to keep his place in the team.

Bottom line he is great in wicket keeping and that's why he needs to continue playing test as long as some one from odi is doing good, but we need to drop him from odi right now doesn't matter whether top can play or not. Cause he is not a team player and sicnce our top can't play we need more of a batsman wktkeeper cause after 20 over when number 6 comes in we need some one who can rotate strike with the old boys and score some runs not just block block block block one block block block block block block block block one one block block block block block block block block RunOut block block two block one block RunOut block block block block block block block block and OUT batsman

cricket_dorshok
August 19, 2006, 12:11 PM
World cricket acknowledges win aginst Australia, India, Srilanka, Pakistan much higher than wins agsint Kenya and Zimbawe.

In all those big occasions (except pakistan, as he started after that), its Ashraful who had significant contrubtion.

In wins against Australia, India, Srilanka and original Zimbabwe side back in 2004, Ashraful averages 76.66.

I think you now understand the vallue of Ashraful in our team. It's unfortunate he is not consistent.

And most importantly poor performance by any top order batsman never justifies Pilots poor show with batting.

Its ironcally true that a lot of peoples think our win against Australia, India was a fluck.
Our win against against ZIM and KEN is the true strength of our cricket.

Miraz
August 19, 2006, 12:15 PM
I have only two thing to say
Bottom line he is great in wicket keeping and that's why he needs to continue playing test as long as some one from odi is doing good, but we need to drop him from odi right now doesn't matter whether top can play or not. Cause he is not a team player and sicnce our top can't play we need more of a batsman wktkeeper cause after 20 over when number 6 comes in we need some one who can rotate strike with the old boys and score some runs not just bloke bloke bloke bloke one bloke bloke bloke bloke bloke bloke bloke bloke one one bloke bloke bloke blokebloke bloke bloke bloke RunOut bloke bloke two bloke one bloke RunOut bloke bloke bloke bloke bloke bloke bloke bloke and OUT batsman

Very well said, friend!!

That's what I am saying
Now, I want to make one thing clear, it is important for us to immediately replace Mashud in ODI's. Mashud is experienced and Rahim is young, these word really do not carry any value. Most of the players start their career at young ages and when anyone starts he will be definitely inexperienced and will gain experience with time. In tests, we have some inactive time, if Mushfiq proves in ODI's that he ia ready to take the button from Pilot, we should arrange a farewell party for Pilot which he deserves. Otherwise, we have to wait for few more tests before the final call.

It is required to understand the fact, sooner than later.

layperson
August 19, 2006, 12:29 PM
Ashraful's ODI career
Mat I NO Runs HS1 HS2 HS3 Ave 100 50 0
76 72 3 1391 100 94 67* 20.15 1 9 10
If above career stat is sufficient to be in the team as a top order batsman in the team, then why not the followings for batting position #7 along with his world class keeping.

Pilot's ODI career
Batting:
Mat I NO Runs HS1 HS2 HS3 Ave 100 50 0
120 107 26 1777 71* 54* 54 21.93 0 7 8
Fielding:
Mat Dis Ct St CtF CtW MD1 MD2 MCt MSt C/M S/M 3d 4d
120 119 87 32 0 87 5 4 3 2 0.72 0.26 9 3

Should not we adress the problem for the first one????????

simply because ashraful has won us matches as pilot dint as mentioned above. That reason alone allows ashraful to be in the team ahead of pilot. Moreover even after ashraful being inconsistent his batting is not a "burden" in the sense he has a decent strike rate in ODIs however Best keeper Pilot has a woeful strike rate in ODIs since for a number 7 batsman strike rate is most important becuase he needs to hit out at the death. You dont need a batsman playing out deliveries at the end overs. I agree we dont have any replacements to pilot now. Hence I suggest playing him at number 11 as a batsman till we get ourselves a proper wicket keeper batsman. Maybe try out mushfiq in a few games and see how he does. If he is not good enough then let him play out domestic cricket and prove his worth and till then please for the sake of Bangladesh cricket bat pilot at number 11.

israr
August 19, 2006, 01:54 PM
World cricket acknowledges win aginst Australia, India, Srilanka, Pakistan much higher than wins agsint Kenya and Zimbawe.

In all those big occasions (except pakistan, as he started after that), its Ashraful who had significant contrubtion.

In wins against Australia, India, Srilanka and original Zimbabwe side back in 2004, Ashraful averages 76.66.

I think you now understand the vallue of Ashraful in our team. It's unfortunate he is not consistent.

And most importantly poor performance by any top order batsman never justifies Pilots poor show with batting.

:up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up:

Spitfire_x86
August 19, 2006, 02:07 PM
Miraz bhai,
carry on. It would be difficult for you to prove. Remember how hard time Spitty and I got when we started 'No more JO club'.
It will be far harder. JO was neither the best batsman of our team, nor he was universally popular. On the other hand, Pilot has been the best keeper/batsman of our team for more than a decade. Before Mushfiq Rahim we never had an alternative who is competent with both bat and gloves. That's why many people feel insecure when we talk about replacing Pilot, even if its only in the ODIs.

shaoun
August 19, 2006, 03:19 PM
how many times we saw khaled mashud saving the team after a embarassing start by our top batsman. if it wasnt for khaled mashud we would have alot more team score of less then 100 runs. i agree that khaled mashud cannot win us matches. his best is not good enough to win us matches. but there is no replacement for him yet. mushfique still has long way to go.

Mohiul
August 19, 2006, 03:21 PM
Khaled Mashud is best wicketkeeper in Asia.
Now, what is the criteria for the best wicketkeeper, I assume no of dismissals (as one of his fan recently started a thread regarding his 2nd place in 2006 based on number of dismissals).



May I take the opportunity of clear myself: I didn't mean that I am/not a fan of him but tried to express that I'm proud to see someone from BD team has a achievment like this.

thebest
August 20, 2006, 06:34 AM
Did any one read Today's Stadium column by Tareq Mahmood. It seems that all of us (Pilot fan/pilot basher) miss one important point of KM 's game - his leadership. Let check his leadership.
1. Giving new ball to Reza - so pilot can destroy the career of Reza
2. Giving old ball to Mash - according to Tareq it is bold decesion by Pilot. Is it ? even Odoyo hit him for 15 runs with only a wicket left of the Kenyans
3. Rebuking a senior player in public.
4. Leaking team meetings news to journalist. I am now quite sure Pilot is the source of this guy on crap reporting of team meeting which leaked by Prothom Alo
And now blameing selectors for creating divide by selecting Mushfiq.
What a crap. Can somebody please send this guy the Report on 2003 debacle

BangladeshFan
August 20, 2006, 06:43 AM
i think madus is a better wk than mushfiq while mush is better batsman than pilot. it would be better to play mush in one dayers while pilot in tests. another reason may be bd can see how mush plays as opener in ODIs as nafis needs a partner in the top who can provide hitting in early overs. [বাংলা] test [/বাংলা]

Rabz
August 20, 2006, 07:16 AM
wow wow wow...Miraz Bhai...
what has Pilot ever done to you??:confused:

or are you Jahangir Alam in disguise??:D
im sure u know who he is, the former BD wicket keeper who never got the chance to play for BD because of Pilot. well, if my memory serves me right, he played his last games for BD back in 94 ICC Trophy.

never mind...im j/k

carry on your good work.

im more of a Pilot fan than a Pilot basher. lets see what happens to him in the future.

Miraz
August 20, 2006, 07:23 AM
wow wow wow...Miraz Bhai...
what has Pilot ever done to you??:confused:

or are you Jahangir Alam in disguise??:D
im sure u know who he is, the former BD wicket keeper who never got the chance to play for BD because of Pilot. well, if my memory serves me right, he played his last games for BD back in 94 ICC Trophy.

never mind...im j/k

carry on your good work.

im more of a Pilot fan than a Pilot basher. lets see what happens to him in the future.

I have nothing personal against Pilot :) and yap I can remember Jahangir very well :)

I salute Pilot for his contribution for Bangladesh cricket (in the past), and want him to quit before he manages to do more damages to Bangladesh cricket (currently doing).

israr
August 20, 2006, 08:02 AM
Can please someone telll me what KM did the night before the WC match against Kenya??

Rabz
August 20, 2006, 08:53 AM
I have nothing personal against Pilot :) and yap I can remember Jahangir very well :)

I salute Pilot for his contribution for Bangladesh cricket (in the past), and want him to quit before he manages to do more damages to Bangladesh cricket (currently doing).

hmmmm... dont u reckon those were pretty harsh words??
i mean..i understand your point, you have made your intentions very clear throughout the whole thread and came up with some impressive facts, data and opinion and i admire ur work.. and i dont want to drag myself into the debate...

but i think saying he is damaging BD cricket, to me, is quite unfair on his part.
cuz i for one, can not really see how he is actually damaging anything?

Doing damage to me sounds like a deliberate destruction of the game and anyone involved with it...
Damage is what Loby and gong doing, not Mashud.

May be a better choice of wording could hv been more appropriate and appreciated.

Thank You.

Fazal
August 20, 2006, 09:09 AM
Can please someone telll me what KM did the night before the WC match against Kenya??

My guess is he did some of these things:

1. Finisher his dinner
2. Changed his cloths and had something more comfy night dress. Its also possible he may just weared his 1st birthday dress or just an under-wear.
3, Brushed his teeth and gurgled with mouth wash
4. Brushed his hair
5. Went to bed with a magazine in hand
6. Finished half of the article from the that magazine and then start browsing some pictures from there.
7. Went to the bathroom for the final time
8. Truned off all the lights except for the dimmer set the room temperature to 68"F
9 Pulled the blanket and tucked into the bed
10. Start sleeping and finally start dreaming holding championship trophy in the final ceremony.

Miraz
August 20, 2006, 09:12 AM
Doing damage to me sounds like a deliberate destruction of the game and anyone involved with it...
Damage is what Loby and gong doing, not Mashud.

May be a better choice of wording could hv been more appropriate and appreciated.

Thank You.

Dear Sydney, before further explaining the facts about Khaled Mashud, I would request you not to bring politics in sports and give proper respect to people who deserves it.

Saber Chowdhury did a lot good for Bangladesh cricket and I admit that and admire him for those efforts. Same goes to Ali Asgar Lobby and co. They (current BCB) did some spledid things to raise Bangladesh's cricket standard, you have to admit that. If you want the list of good works I can give you the full details, I am not posting here as it is not the appropriate thread and I don't want to divert discussions of this thread.

If you want to debate about the topic, you are more than welcome and in that case please open a separate thread.

Tigers_eye
August 21, 2006, 09:06 AM
Miraz or Watmore?
1. through 4. all are endorsed/echoed by the Coach. Take your side.
#5. I hope KM retires from ODIs ASAP. We will find out how long BD can last against the big boys. No other way to find out.

sadi
August 21, 2006, 09:16 AM
Miraz bhai, I guess what Sydney bhai meant was to give some respect to Pilot. After all, he is representing our country and trying his best. You may not like him or his batting and its okay to feel so but give respect where its due.

Miraz
August 21, 2006, 09:23 AM
Miraz bhai, I guess what Sydney bhai meant was to give some respect to Pilot. After all, he is representing our country and trying his best. You may not like him or his batting and its okay to feel so but give respect where its due.

Sadi bhai, I have nothing personal against Pilot.

I salute Pilot for his contribution for Bangladesh cricket (in the past),

And I made it quite clear through my posts and analysis why I want him to quit from our ODI team asap for the best interest of Bangladesh cricket.

Miraz
August 21, 2006, 09:27 AM
Miraz or Watmore?
1. through 4. all are endorsed/echoed by the Coach. Take your side.

Probably those were endorsed by Whatmore about 2 years ago. Things have changed a lot over the past two years and you have to understand that brother. I'm sure Whatmore's current view will match with me :)

I hope KM retires from ODIs ASAP. We will find out how long BD can last against the big boys. No other way to find out.

May KM hears to his fans and acts accordingly :)

Tigers_eye
August 21, 2006, 10:32 AM
Probably those were endorsed by Whatmore about 2 years ago. Things have changed a lot over the past two years and you have to understand that brother. I'm sure Whatmore's current view will match with me :)

I'm sure it won't match. :) Is there anyway to ask him?

The only reason he would opt for an alternative is to test the backup when a series has been decided.

Haradhon
August 21, 2006, 09:47 PM
Idid not have the time to read everything you wrote, but one thing I want to say about KM is he needs to be a better batsman

AsifTheManRahman
August 22, 2006, 10:00 AM
Same goes to Ali Asgar Lobby and co.
agreed. i was kinda worried after they kicked Saber and co. out of BCB. however, much as some people hate lobby, one will have to agree that while he may not be as great a leader as Saber, he and his men definitely did a great job in promoting our cricket.

AsifTheManRahman
August 22, 2006, 10:43 AM
getting back to the topic in hand, imo it is not all about mashud. it is more about finding an appropriate replacement. mashud has been the best wicket keeper batsman in bangladesh for over a decade, as pointed out by someone; and i would like to believe that he is still the best wicket keeper in the country. it is true that his batting has deteriorated over the last year or so, and that he has lost a lot of his big hitting capabilities recently. however, look at who some of us looking to replace him with - poor mushfiqur rahim. the innocent, nabalok rahim who all his life only dreamt of having a successful career as the number one bd wk/batsman. going by mcinnes' evaluation, he can turn out to be a chunk of gold for bangladesh. do we really want to waste him? do we want him to score a couple of ducks against the big boys and lose his confidence forever? alternatively, do we want him to score a big hundred, get us a win against australia, succumb to the pressure on the next couple of tours, and turn out to be another ash of a fool? with the kind of potential that mushfiq has, he will surely win us a lot more than that in the long run, if groomed properly.

besides, in all reality, mushfiq hasn't really done enough to deserve a spot in the team yet. players like sakib and mehrab have better records than him. i guess giving him a couple of games during the tour of africa would have been a good idea, but once we started losing, the management decided to stick to experience, and i stand by that decision; it would probably not have been a great scenario for a newcomer to make his debut.

unfortunately, we are a team that still doesn't have the right combination. our players are young, and we don't have a bunch of experienced ones to clean up after the young ones play. a LOT of responsibility lies on the shoulders of the likes of reza and sakib, who are just coming into the international fold. the margin of error on part of these players, as well as the management/selectors, is very small. under these circumstances, we would do better if we held on to the tiny quality reserve that we have, and allow them to groom steadily. letting mushfiq play right now will probably not end up being a disaster, but it very well could; playing him after a year or two, on the other hand, will definitely be a success, and we will have someone who will serve us, probably a lot better than pilot, for years to come.

edit - PS: to add to that, replacing mashud is not the solution to his batting failures for another reason; i believe that a player who has been out of form can and should be able to work things out by talking to the coach and captain, and trying harder. sacking him is probably not the only option, and definitely not the best, especially when he had done well in the past.

sadi
August 22, 2006, 11:04 AM
very well said ATMR :up:

Miraz
February 13, 2007, 06:24 AM
The myth is finally over.

Bangladesh have made the much needed change for the wicket keeer slot. Now, I hope Mushfiq can prove the decision right and we have a good Wicket Keeper-Batsman in place of a good Wicket Keeper.

Party time .....................
:big_hug: :joy::fire:

Huda
February 13, 2007, 11:34 AM
Dear Mr. Cricket, I understand your point. If you have time, you can have a look at Tatenda Taibus career, he started his career at 18 years of age (younger than current Rahim) and he replaced Andy Flower, who is by any standard much bigger name than Pilot. I know there were some problem in Zim cricket in that time although all players except Andy played in his debut test.

Now, I want to make one thing clear, it is important for us to immediately replace Mashud in ODI's. Mashud is experienced and Rahim is young, these word really do not carry any value. Most of the players start their career at young ages and when anyone starts he will be definitely inexperienced and will gain experience with time. In tests, we have some inactive time, if Mushfiq proves in ODI's that he ia ready to take the button from Pilot, we should arrange a farewell party for Pilot which he deserves. Otherwise, we have to wait for few more tests before the final call.


Taibu didnt replace Flower, flower got kicked out of the team by the Mugabe regime, incident involving a black arm band he wore during a game in the WC i seem to remember.

FaridpurChicago
February 13, 2007, 02:20 PM
Miraz, Finally the selectors heard you.
Finally we lost our fighter(!) and probably will fight for second round birth in this world cup. We fought last time too and that fight was to beat Canda where we were unsuccessful.

Flip Master Mick
February 13, 2007, 03:49 PM
khaled masud is still our wicketkeeper as far as test cricket is concerned at least for another couple of years...

it is indeed a difficult choice as far as ODIs are concerned. does mushfiq have the depth or the experience to mentally absorb a huge event like the world cup? also, the manner in which masud has been dislodged is in par with the doings of our beloved care taker government. maybe our selectors could have showed a little more respect and picked two wicketkeepers instead of javed omar. or does it go back to the last world cup and its aftermath? who knows?

arafath79
February 13, 2007, 04:55 PM
I can't blame the selectors for not inculding K.Mashud in BD WC squad. Because it's only 15 member squad for WC07. If it was 16 member suqad then K.Mashud would be selected in the squad. It's good to see Tamim, Tapash and Rajin are in the team.

reyme
February 13, 2007, 04:59 PM
Miraz's comparison between KM and the big guns does not apply, this is meaningless. You are comparing Apple to cherry. To be meaningful, compare KM with other BD players. There were days when BG hardly got any wickets in ODI, so how can KM accumulate more cathes and stumping? His total runs and avg is aligned with other BD players. He is still the top 3 highest run getter for BD.

Forget the stats, everyone knows, 3-4 years ago, when BD was down like 25/5, it was often Khaled Mashud/Kapali/tail enders who would help put a total score of around 160's. Now that is not a myth, this is true and we all wathced those matches.

I think KM's unprossiconal comment as him being the automatic choice ruined it for him. He was recently fined by BCB and that was an indication things might not work out well for him. KM should have said: this is my last WC and I will retire right after.
He as a captain of Abahoni could have come up early in the batting order and show some class. Instead he was never concerned often did not even bat. His recent batting performance was aweful. We also did not forget about the debac;le that he has created in the last WC and his poor captaincy in the last ZIM tour was also a major factor. BD showed in the last ZIM tour that the team can play very without mashud and his inclusion in the team is not mandatory.

But if I was KM, I would not make thois estupid comments that he does not have any rival in the country and work extra hard in the league to come up with some 50's. Overconfidence and pride is the reason for his exclusion in WC. And JO got lucky by taking advantage of the situation. Remember he never said anything controversial, kept his mouth shut and maintained good relationship with the management. Thats pretty much how we succeed in real life.

arafath79
February 13, 2007, 05:12 PM
I heard him saying Rafique ( one of the best left arm spinner of the world) " Rafique taratari ball kor". How dare he talks to Rafique like that ???? He used to say Razzak and Enamul jnr( tara tari ball kor, beshi somoy neoa jabena) the similar way which was also not good. A bowler should bowl according to his own rhythm and style. I started hating him after that. I was angry on him when Akram Khan ( well set at the wicket) got run out scoring 40+ runs(i can't remember the exact figure) because of K.Mashud in a match in Asia Cup (before BD won ICC Cup) against Pakistan and that was totally Pilot's fault. Otherwise Akram Khan could get his fifty easily in that match. Bd lost against Canada becasue of his own foolish permormance. He is kinda selfish batsman and now he has paid the price for all those.

arafath79
February 13, 2007, 05:17 PM
Miraz's comparison between KM and the big guns does not apply, this is meaningless. You are comparing Apple to cherry. To be meaningful, compare KM with other BD players. There were days when BG hardly got any wickets in ODI, so how can KM accumulate more cathes and stumping? His total runs and avg is aligned with other BD players. He is still the top 3 highest run getter for BD.

Forget the stats, everyone knows, 3-4 years ago, when BD was down like 25/5, it was often Khaled Mashud/Kapali/tail enders who would help put a total score of around 160's. Now that is not a myth, this is true and we all wathced those matches.



I agree with u but at that time BD used to play for losing the match against big guns respectfully and now Bd plays for winning the match against big guns and they have made it. In this stage Pilot and Golla type batsman are not necessary in the team. JO got selected allthough. It's really the time for changes the BD players strategy of playing rather than batting like Bulbul, JO , KM in ODI !!

ruja1810
February 13, 2007, 05:39 PM
Khaled Mashud is without a doubt is the best wicket keeper in bangladesh but again if we see his batting records recently it is not that pretty at all. On other hand, incuding Mushfiqur Rahim was the right choice due to his batting ability (not to mention his wicket keeping skill) which we need in our team now. We are all talking about Khaled mashud's experiences but that doesn't mean anything if he can't score any runs.

Ehsan
February 13, 2007, 06:10 PM
For your convenience and to serve the purpose of the WC Forum, I have moved quite a couple of threads from Bangladesh Forum to the World Cup Forum. Most of these threads have an expiring redirect of 1 hour. Thanks.

Miraz
February 13, 2007, 07:05 PM
Forget the stats, everyone knows, 3-4 years ago, when BD was down like 25/5, it was often Khaled Mashud/Kapali/tail enders who would help put a total score of around 160's. Now that is not a myth, this is true and we all wathced those matches.


Although a bit exaggerated but yeah Pilot ensured some 'respectable defeat' in those days (3-4 years back).

This is 2007 not 2003. Bangladesh now play for win not to ensure 'honorable defeat' and the hard fact is 'Pilot also lost that batting ability to inflict respectable defeat'.

Now it's different time and Bangladesh is in a different league. Pilot simply does not belong there.

BangladeshFan
February 13, 2007, 07:34 PM
I heard him saying Rafique ( one of the best left arm spinner of the world) " Rafique taratari ball kor". How dare he talks to Rafique like that ???? He used to say Razzak and Enamul jnr( tara tari ball kor, beshi somoy neoa jabena) the similar way which was also not good. A bowler should bowl according to his own rhythm and style. I started hating him after that. I was angry on him when Akram Khan ( well set at the wicket) got run out scoring 40+ runs(i can't remember the exact figure) because of K.Mashud in a match in Asia Cup (before BD won ICC Cup) against Pakistan and that was totally Pilot's fault. Otherwise Akram Khan could get his fifty easily in that match. Bd lost against Canada becasue of his own foolish permormance. He is kinda selfish batsman and now he has paid the price for all those.

interesting, i actually remember an incident in a match against kenya(venue was probably somewhere in india) when rafiq was bowling against tikolo. tikolo was visibly tired after running a lot between the wickets. suddenly pilot said (heard on mic) "taratari kor, klanto, klanto!" and guess what rafiq actually bowled next 2 deliveries quickly without wasting time and tikolo was dismissed in that 2nd delivery trying to hoick because he didnt have time to get a breather and think.

that dismissal was as much credit to pilot as it was rafiq. true he was a selfish batsman, but he had a sherwd brain behind the wicket.

arafath79
February 14, 2007, 09:52 PM
interesting, i actually remember an incident in a match against kenya(venue was probably somewhere in india) when rafiq was bowling against tikolo. tikolo was visibly tired after running a lot between the wickets. suddenly pilot said (heard on mic) "taratari kor, klanto, klanto!" and guess what rafiq actually bowled next 2 deliveries quickly without wasting time and tikolo was dismissed in that 2nd delivery trying to hoick because he didnt have time to get a breather and think.

that dismissal was as much credit to pilot as it was rafiq. true he was a selfish batsman, but he had a sherwd brain behind the wicket.

I don't remember that. But I have heard him more than two times talking to Rafique like taratari ball kor not only against Kenya but also against Zim and India !! It makes the bowler tired and also loss the rhythm. May be Pilot was impatient behind the stump.

arafath79
February 14, 2007, 09:55 PM
Finally, I have to say K.Mashud is still the best wicket keeper of BD and he could be selected instead of JO or if it was 16 memeber world cup squad.