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BD_Ashraful
December 6, 2006, 01:00 AM
How is the better bowler in ODIs ?

Mohammed Rafique
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR align=right bgColor=#cccccc height=17><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap align=left>class
</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> mat
</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap>balls
</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> runs
</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> wkts
</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> bbi
</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> bbm
</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> ave
</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> econ
</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> sr
</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> 4
</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap>5
</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> 10
</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top align=right><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap align=left></TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> </TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> </TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> </TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> </TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> </TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> </TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> </TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> </TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> </TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> </TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> </TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> </TD></TR><TR vAlign=top align=right><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap align=left>ODIs
</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> 106
</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> 5408
</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> 4003
</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> 102
</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> 5/47
</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> 5/47
</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> 39.24
</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> 4.44
</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> 53.01
</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> 2
</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> 1
</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> 0
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Abdur Razzak
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR align=right bgColor=#cccccc height=17><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap align=left>class</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> mat</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> balls</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> runs</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> wkts</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> bbi</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> bbm</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> ave</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> econ</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> sr</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> 4</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> 5</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> 10</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top align=right><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap align=left></TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> </TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> </TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> </TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> </TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> </TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> </TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> </TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> </TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> </TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> </TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> </TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> </TD></TR><TR vAlign=top align=right><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap align=left>ODIs</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> 28</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> 1487</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> 929</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> 43</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> 5/33</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> 5/33</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> 21.60</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> 3.74</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> 34.58</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> 1</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> 1</TD><TD class=profiles-stats-data noWrap> 0</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Your Thoughts :p

adel
December 6, 2006, 01:13 AM
I'm a big believer in experience, so i'm going with Mohammed Rafique...
In addition to the experience factor, Rafique can also 'chip-in' in batting...
However, Abdur Razzak will be very great in the future...

Omio
December 6, 2006, 04:55 AM
Both of them r precious for us..

nasifkhan
December 6, 2006, 05:06 AM
stand it goes for a 21-run fifty???????????????????????

Spitfire_x86
December 6, 2006, 07:47 AM
Rafique played most of his matches against big teams. Razzak's average is very deceiving because he played only 10 matches against big teams. Against big teams he averages 35.0 per wicket, which is not bad for a SLA, but a far cry from his career average/record against minnows.

Rubu
December 6, 2006, 08:23 AM
Not to mention, off the 10 big boys he played, he played at least 2/3 of them with a faulted bowling action (his debut asia cup). beside that, he has only done well against the like of zim and kenya. no doubt he is doing better in this series than rafique, but overall, he is not even close to rafique, not yet. and in actual arena, he might just well be a below per bowler. we still have to wait and see.

cricket_dorshok
December 6, 2006, 08:34 AM
As already said by Rubu, Spite, adel_... Razzak played mostly against ZIM and Kenya. To me Rafique still the best!!!

Miraz
December 6, 2006, 08:35 AM
It is too early to compare anyone with Rafiq.

I hope Razzak will end his career with a better stat than Rafiq.

Ahmed_B
December 6, 2006, 11:00 AM
Here is the comparison chart for these two in the 'Heavy-Duty' matches:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v335/ahmedb/Cricket/Rafiq_Rajjak.jpg

Razzak played only 10 matches against the top teams while Rafiq played 69. By the time Razzak will have played around 50 matches against them... his Ave. or Econ. will probably be same as Rafiq.

The difference between them is not as big as their career stats indicate.

Sam
December 6, 2006, 11:46 AM
Ahmed_B, thanks for the stats graph.
Time will show who is better. But Razzak being a young player is doing great. Time may come when we shall find Razzak to be a better bowler than Rafiq. He is composed and changes his game plan within the match, which I liked most.
After all, we need both in our team.

Rihaad The Man
December 6, 2006, 11:47 AM
Both but in next match , Rafique can be given rest :).........

arafath79
December 6, 2006, 12:31 PM
but overall, he is not even close to rafique, not yet. and in actual arena, he might just well be a below per bowler. we still have to wait and see.

I don't think he will be a below per bowler. He is very close to Rafique at this moment. I am a fan of Rafique and I am pleased to see Razzaq that Razzaq can fulfil the place of Rafique and he will do better than Rafique in his cricket career.

view360
December 6, 2006, 01:27 PM
Rafique did not have a rival for a long time. Now he has one . And he is almost end of his international career giving his age. But alarmingly his recent ODI parformance are more like a shadow of his past.He has achieved 102 wickets out of 106 ODI matches which is not very extraordinary.But Razzaq has achieved 43 wickets out of 28 matches and if he still plays he will reach his 100 wickets long before 100 matches.
Unlike football Cricket is more of a game of stats, virtually everything are put under stats in cricket and we can not just ignore stats when it comes to judge someone.

Fazal
December 6, 2006, 02:46 PM
It depends.

If you are comparing Razzak vs Rafique taking into consideration the whole career of Rafique, then we shouldn't even go there, its kind of unfiar to Rafique and Razzak at this point to compare the two. The way Razzak is playing, in future who know... he may make a solid case for himself

If you are comparing Razzak vs Rafique for test, then its not relevent as Razzak is still a primarily ODI bowler.

If you are comparing Razzak vs Rafique on their performnace in ODI for last one plus years... then I think Razzak is doing pretty good comapered with Rafique... like neck to neck.... resently I was even thinking that Razzak is even playing better than Rafiue now a days, sometimes it looks like he our #1 spinner in the ODI team. They are using hiom in power play to compensate one less FB, they are also using him the between 46 to 50th over. Looks like the team management is more comforable with Razzak's performance then our fanbase here.... and he is producing result to that challenge. Now I understand that he didn't played much against stronger teams. But so far so good....and atleast against weaker teams where all our main bowlers bowled, his performnace for last one year is kind of better than the others in our team. Atleast that give me some hope.... may be... may be

AsifTheManRahman
December 6, 2006, 03:14 PM
if a comparison has to be made, then it should be made based on the performances of these two over the last few years. taking rafique's entire career against razzaq's short one will give you an inadequate comparison, because rafique has been playing for almost thirteen years now, and his career goes back to the days when we were a worse team than the current day bermuda; with no mentor in the team and everyone else getting bashed mercilessly, you can hardly blame rafique. he has had to toil his way up the ranks over the time span of a decade or so, and has been there through the early ages of bangladesh cricket, when everyone was learning (everyone starting from the players to the admins).

Murad
December 6, 2006, 03:21 PM
razzak is never comparable with rafique..

but if the management give.. Enamul Hoque jr. some chances in the ODI's then that boy wud be comparable with rafique.. that boy's bowling is just awesome.. he could become the 2nd rafique in our team....

donnno why they not giving him some chances....

FaridpurChicago
December 6, 2006, 03:36 PM
It is good to have both Enamul Jr and Razzak. I'm a big fan of Rafiq but I have to accept that these boys will do better than what Rafiq did. But Rafiq is undoubtedly more talent than others. People used to bowl with Rafiq in ICC trophy are no more around us. Rafiq had been the only bowler whom we could bring in front of world class batters until recently. No one will match the contribution of Rafiq, but these guys will match the performance of Rafiq, or even excel better.

You can't compare by statistics. When opponents used to take our bowlers for warm up practice then Rafiq used to receive respect. Now all our bowlers receive some level of respect. You may have remembered the test match in Pakistan where we were close to win and Inzy saved it. All of the Pakistani newspapers mentioned in the last day (Pak down 8 wicket overnight) morning 'the match is ultimately now a competition between Inzaman and Rafiq'. Inzamam mentioned at the post match 'I knew I had to negotiate with Rafiq's bowling'. Pakistan compared their last two batsmen (actually bowlers) with our other bowlers.

Such was the difference between Rafiq and other bowlers. So, Razzak will turn out better (I wish so) than Rafiq but far below to get to comparison level.

TheWatcher
December 6, 2006, 03:40 PM
As bowlers, IMO, it is hard to say who is better than who at this point. But, if we have to choose only one of them for an ODI match, considering all the departments (batting, bowling, and fielding), Razzak would be my pick.

Protic
December 6, 2006, 11:21 PM
I dont like the thread..sorry ..thats what i feel.
I wont say who's the better bowler...because Razzak is inexpirienced comparing to Rafique.

cricketboy
December 6, 2006, 11:46 PM
Why should we compare the two? Razzak is only a ODI bowler upto now whereas Rafique has proved himself to be the best spinner Bangladesh has ever produced in test cricket. Also, the slectors think ENamul is better bowler to get wickets in test cricket so they prefer him over Razzak. So, if Razzak cant even compete with Enamul why compare him with the champion. :smug:

mshakir56
December 7, 2006, 02:46 AM
My question is that, if Rafique is doing worse than Razzak against poor teams, then how is rafique gono do better than Razzak against stronger teams. It just doesn't make sense doese it? Some of you guys are not thiking right !

gatekeeper
December 7, 2006, 09:25 AM
Rafique played most of his matches against big teams. Razzak's average is very deceiving because he played only 10 matches against big teams. Against big teams he averages 35.0 per wicket, which is not bad for a SLA, but a far cry from his career average/record against minnows.

Exactly. But take nothing away from Razzak, he looks a promising talent for the future.

sutru
December 7, 2006, 12:18 PM
in here who ever posting their opinion about who is the best between rafiq and razzak , they all are nacal head and including me.
listen everybody

rafiq is rafiq. there is no alternative.
jokhon kow ke compare korte hoy tokhon doijo-er jogota dekte hoy. ami mone kore razzak-er songe rafiq-er tulona kora ta rafiq -ke opoman kora. karon rafiq is real tiger, a leagend of bangladesh, who never give up.

razzak is still a kids infront of rafiq.

don't campare rafiq with others.becuse rafiq is uncompareable......

respect rafiq and respect bangladesh, respect yourself.


bangali ar manush hoilo na, ke ki korlo haida niya kara kari..........

FaridpurChicago
December 7, 2006, 12:50 PM
bangali ar manush hoilo na, ke ki korlo haida niya kara kari..........
Awesome

Murad
December 7, 2006, 01:54 PM
bangali ra aar manush hoibo o na.. its our nature....

Hasib
December 7, 2006, 09:17 PM
Here is the comparison chart for these two in the 'Heavy-Duty' matches:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v335/ahmedb/Cricket/Rafiq_Rajjak.jpg

Razzak played only 10 matches against the top teams while Rafiq played 69. By the time Razzak will have played around 50 matches against them... his Ave. or Econ. will probably be same as Rafiq.

The difference between them is not as big as their career stats indicate.

The stats STILL don't tell the whole story... keep in mind that Rafique has become the bowler he is in the last few years.

Ahmed_B
December 8, 2006, 12:45 AM
The stats STILL don't tell the whole story... keep in mind that Rafique has become the bowler he is in the last few years.
Well.. the comparison is not of much use in the first place. Currently ... the Rafiq-Razzak combination is doing wonders for BD and this is a spin duo which will serve BD nicely till the WC-07. And it is also a good thing that Razzak is developing himself so well that he will become a perfrect replacement for Rafiq when he retires.

Right now we are not at a point when we need to pick one between Rafiq & Razzak. Together ... they are doing just fine!

Imteaz
December 8, 2006, 04:05 AM
Well, Rafique Served Our Cricket for a Long Time. His Average is not so Good because on the Starting of His Career he wasn't able to play Randomly. He is Good.

According to Average and Strike Rate, Razzak is Excellent. He has got a Good Start. But It is Important to Survive in International Cricket. Lots of Cricketer Started like Him but Lost from International Cricket. Because They Couldn't Continue due to Many Reasons. Now it is Time to Survive. We should Wait to See wheather He can Survive or Not.

Time will Speak.

Have a Nice Time.

khalifa
December 8, 2006, 09:08 AM
Warfaze bhai, are you a member of this legendary BD band's original lineup, or just a fan like me (not a fan of the new line-up though)?

Imteaz
December 9, 2006, 06:00 AM
Warfaze bhai, are you a member of this legendary BD band's original lineup, or just a fan like me (not a fan of the new line-up though)?

I am a Die Hearted and Passionate Fan of WARFAZE. I don't Care about Line-Up. Because..........................

This is not The Right Place to talk about Warfaze. If you want to talk, PM me or We can talk somewhere else.

Thanks, Have a Nice Time.

shujan
December 9, 2006, 06:16 AM
Well, Rafique Served Our Cricket for a Long Time. His Average is not so Good because on the Starting of His Career he wasn't able to play Randomly. He is Good.

According to Average and Strike Rate, Razzak is Excellent. He has got a Good Start. But It is Important to Survive in International Cricket. Lots of Cricketer Started like Him but Lost from International Cricket. Because They Couldn't Continue due to Many Reasons. Now it is Time to Survive. We should Wait to See wheather He can Survive or Not.

Time will Speak.

Have a Nice Time.

You make perfect sense. Rafiq is ranked among top 15 bowler in the world because of his consistent performace over time. He steadily increases in the ranking.

One thing about Rafiq's bowling is that, he can remove a hot player from the crease. He has removed good batsman for bangladesh like Lara and Sachin. He raise his competition level to take out the best. Stat can not quantify this important characteristic of Rafiq, which is very important for Bangladesh team.

Cheers!