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Zunaid
January 14, 2007, 08:13 PM
Our Middle Order
Masum Billah
The author analyzes our middle order and tries to get answers to some crucial questions. Who is serving us there? How are they doing? Who are exceeding our expectations? Who are the under-performers?
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Orpheus
January 15, 2007, 12:35 AM
Good analysis... but I am afraid they mean absolutely nothing.. Sakib and Forhad may be duds when it comes to world class bowling. I think it is unfortunate that the timing of their introduction to the national side denied us further testing against good opponents. Now we have no other choice but to select them for WC matches. In 2003, we thought our team was the best possible team but oh boy were we wrong... Ehsanul Huq?? sanuar Hossain?? I think we are making similar mistakes..

will see what happens..

Imteaz
January 15, 2007, 01:01 AM
Nice Article...............Full of Information. but I think Saqib and Farhad has to Go a Lot of Way. I agree with Mr. Orpheus Brother. Still Aftab, Ashraful, Habibul are Best. We should Consider Rajin and Alok also.

Thanks again for your Nice Article. Keep it Up.

PoorFan
January 15, 2007, 01:04 AM
Another interesting article from Billah!

<!--StartFragment -->Especially I liked the term 'staying Power' invented by Billah?! I hope Sakib will continue his good job against big guns too, but Forhad? we still need to know. And Ash's 'staying power' seems worst according this report, but wasn't he an opener most in those matches? perhaps one of the reason of less 'staying power' compare to rest?

billah
January 15, 2007, 02:40 AM
Another interesting article from Billah!

<!--StartFragment -->Especially I liked the term 'staying Power' invented by Billah?! I hope Sakib will continue his good job against big guns too, but Forhad? we still need to know. And Ash's 'staying power' seems worst according this report, but wasn't he an opener most in those matches? perhaps one of the reason of less 'staying power' compare to rest?


Actually, no. Only middle order batting positions (from #3 to #7) were analyzed. So, no, Ash was not opening.

Mohiul
January 15, 2007, 05:42 AM
Amazing analysis, billah bhai

akabir77
January 15, 2007, 10:56 AM
these analysis doesn't work against cricket. If some one has seen them play will say in the middle order we just need to remove pilot that's all for now. every one else is doing ok. I think ash is coming to his cricket knowledge so we will see more runs from him in future as doesn't look nevus any more. but I wish if he could come in number 5 and bashar at 5. but that's not happening. Reza and saqib are good batsmen and need more experience against the strong team. and i am 100% sure they will take less time to GET IT then ash the fool.

FaridpurChicago
January 15, 2007, 12:16 PM
Congrats Billah for your good analysis. It reveals a lot.

Sakib is a performer as you showed in his report card. Some people are worried about his performance against big guns as they forgot his innings agains SL in the champions trophy.
People who still think Ash is going to perform against big guns are completely in dark. A guy who don't have 'staying power' against Zim, will show it against Ind and SL!!! May you have some reasonable thinking powers.
Pilot will consume balls after balls thrashing our hope of winning. He will give us the honour of honourable defeat. If people are still looking for that then I have nothing to say.
The bad thing is, we struggle to replace our big names (?). Ind could replace the likes of Shewag/Pathan for their underperformance, we can't replace Ash/Pilot when they are consistent liability.

Miraz
January 15, 2007, 12:40 PM
Billah bhai, good analysis but I feel its a bit premature to come to a conclusion. In my opinion, a similar analysis after playing world cup and home series against India would give better indication about the role of players in the middle order.

I know right at the moment you cannot help it as we have predominantly played against Zim/Kenya during your analysis time (top two performer according to your analysis haven't played against Aussies).

I will be looking forward for a similar analysis at then end of 2007 or at the end of India home series.

shovon13
January 15, 2007, 02:58 PM
Congrats Billah for your good analysis. It reveals a lot.

Sakib is a performer as you showed in his report card. Some people are worried about his performance against big guns as they forgot his innings agains SL in the champions trophy.
People who still think Ash is going to perform against big guns are completely in dark. A guy who don't have 'staying power' against Zim, will show it against Ind and SL!!! May you have some reasonable thinking powers.
Pilot will consume balls after balls thrashing our hope of winning. He will give us the honour of honourable defeat. If people are still looking for that then I have nothing to say.
The bad thing is, we struggle to replace our big names (?). Ind could replace the likes of Shewag/Pathan for their underperformance, we can't replace Ash/Pilot when they are consistent liability.

i'm embarrassed for you.

FaridpurChicago
January 15, 2007, 03:29 PM
i'm embarrassed for you.

You are embarrassed for me or for my comment ? Probably I didn't meet you ever.

If you are embarrassed for my comment then I apologize for that. You can let me/us know your points that you don't agree. I am open to accept your/any idea if you can prove logically correct. I tried to write my comments according to what the report cards from Billah means to me.

akabir77
January 15, 2007, 04:26 PM
Congrats Billah for your good analysis. It reveals a lot.

Sakib is a performer as you showed in his report card. Some people are worried about his performance against big guns as they forgot his innings agains SL in the champions trophy.
.

That Innings was a lost cause...

shovon13
January 15, 2007, 04:42 PM
You are embarrassed for me or for my comment ? Probably I didn't meet you ever.

If you are embarrassed for my comment then I apologize for that. You can let me/us know your points that you don't agree. I am open to accept your/any idea if you can prove logically correct. I tried to write my comments according to what the report cards from Billah means to me.

oh jeeze! whats up with everyone being 'politically correct' (for lack of a better word) these days. if you know what i was hinting at, then answer back. if not, leave it alone. i expressed my disappointment in your comments. just look back at your first post and tell me its not ladened with emotional bullcrap, much less being 'logically correct'.

people in general: drop all these dramatic "oh i probably didn't meet you ever" or "a real bengali would never think of his team in such a way". be straightforward. when someone is being straightforward with you, take it like a man. dont cower and act like you're deeply hurt. quit being so nicey nicey. like faridpur said, most of us never met each other, and we probably never will.
your enemies will never criticize you.

TheWatcher
January 15, 2007, 04:49 PM
Nice analysis Billah bhai. But all those talks abouth Sakib and Farhad just fall as speculations (not that I have anything against speculation, but that is what it is). Their stats against Zim and Kenya simply don't carry that much weight while their stats against SL and WI can be interpreted either way- good or bad (other way to say it is just not possible to reach a conclusion based on two matches).

Anyway, I sincerly hope those two will live up to our expectations.

pagol-chagol
January 15, 2007, 04:55 PM
your enemies will never criticize you.

Kids, just want to save your lives. Don't tell that to your wives.

Zunaid
January 15, 2007, 05:01 PM
oh jeeze! whats up with everyone being 'politically correct' (for lack of a better word) these days. if you know what i was hinting at, then answer back. if not, leave it alone. i expressed my disappointment in your comments.

just look back at your first post and tell me its not ladened with emotional bullcrap, much less being 'logically correct'.

oh puhleeze. The man had offered numerous viewpoints and whether they are emotional or whether they are laden with bovine excreta is a different matter. Now, a one-liner riposte that was obviously not complimentary and extremely obtuse is nothing more than wasted pixels. If the target takes offense, there is nothing 'PC" about it.

First of all, you had said "i'm embarrassed for you" which has quite a different semantic connotation from "i expressed my disappointment in your comments". Obviously our windy city denizen wasn't embarrassed to express his opinion and since you are embarrassed on his behalf, we would all like to be elucidated as to what exactly was so embarrassing? Inquiring minds want to know!

[as myself]

billah
January 15, 2007, 05:24 PM
oh puhleeze. ....Inquiring minds want to know![as myself]

Way to go, Doc :-D


Obtuse
Wasted pixels
PC
Semantic Connotation
Windy city denizen
Elucidate
Bovine excreta

Although, I must say, you are getting old :) This would have been the perfect case for one more of your favorites:

Ad Hominem

Zunaid
January 15, 2007, 05:30 PM
Although, I must say, you are getting old :) This would have been the perfect case for one more of your favorites:

Ad Hominem

I _am_ old. :)

I like "argumentum ad personam" better since fewer people know what it means. :smug:

cricman
January 15, 2007, 05:39 PM
Shouldn't you take the Strike rate of each batsmen from their last 21 ODI's instead of taking their Career SR? Because Ash SR as a middle Order Batsmen is like 80 but as an opener it's like 35.

If you added JO in this list he'd have Staying power of 49 X .52(Strike Rate) = 25.48! I think that openers and middle order batsmen have the same responsibility.

billah
January 15, 2007, 07:09 PM
Shouldn't you take the Strike rate of each batsmen from their last 21 ODI's instead of taking their Career SR? Because Ash SR as a middle Order Batsmen is like 80 but as an opener it's like 35.

If you added JO in this list he'd have Staying power of 49 X .52(Strike Rate) = 25.48! I think that openers and middle order batsmen have the same responsibility.

That IS what I did, the SR is from last 21 ODIs, explained there too.

Also, this was only for batting positons 3 to 7 or so-called Middle Order. Meaning, if Ash or JO opened in a match, their stats for those matches were not included. I limited the scope to get a true feeling of what is happening out there during the middle overs, after the openers are gone.

Also, to comment on Miraz's input, I wanted to have a look at this BEFORE the WC. I'm sure there will be plenty of data to munch on halfway through the year. We have research buffs to do that. :)

Another thing, the members that do not think much about the idea of including Farhad and Saqib: You might as well be right about it. I, however, was not recommending any names in particular.

I set a criteria I felt relevant to the team's performance. I analyzed using the data that came from the performance of these players. The SR and Ave are all real numbers. My only hypothetical projection was a 60-ball innings results. Even the "Staying Power" data came from real number of deliveries faced by these guys.

Thanks for all of your encouraging and kind words here, thank you even for the criticism. Like it all the same. :)

Spitfire_x86
January 15, 2007, 08:40 PM
Sakib is a performer as you showed in his report card. Some people are worried about his performance against big guns as they forgot his innings agains SL in the champions trophy.
People who don't rate him do that because they remember THAT innings.

Spitfire_x86
January 15, 2007, 08:44 PM
Anyway, good article. But only real world performance will convince most that Sakib and Farhad won't be yesterday's story within next couple of years.

Zunaid
January 15, 2007, 08:58 PM
People who don't rate him do that because they remember THAT innings.

Ah, yes. :)

The 67 of 157 balls chasing a 300+ score can be interpreted in more than one way, especially having been not out at the end.

He was known to be an explosive batsman in the U-19 team - a s/r of 100+. And most runs above Tamim/Nafees/Mehrab jnr et al.

I think the jury must still be out on him in the big leagues based on just 2 instances of non-minnow matches.

67* sounds great. But 67 of 157 chasing 302. But he carried his bat through. But the team did not end up all out. But wickets were falling regularly.

Kabir
January 15, 2007, 09:07 PM
67* sounds great. But 67 of 157 chasing 302. But he carried his bat through. But the team did not end up all out. But wickets were falling regularly.

But BD for the first time (I hope not the last time) lost with dignity...and I would thank him for that. Him scoring 67 from 157 balls wasn't even painful enough compared to Bashar's wicket giveaway (words are out that he did that on purpose...lack of vision). So what shall we call him? May be not a "worrior"...but an "okay player" would be all right...coz the spot for the "worthless player" was long filled by Bashar.

Zunaid
January 15, 2007, 09:11 PM
But BD for the first time (I hope not the last time) lost with dignity...and I would thank him for that. Him scoring 67 from 157 balls wasn't even painful enough compared to Bashar's wicket giveaway (words are out that he did that on purpose...lack of vision). So what shall we call him? May be not a "worrior"...but an "okay player" would be all right...coz the spot for the "worthless player" was long filled by Bashar.

Aye. I didn't express myself too clearly in the "but" sentence. I was trying to alternate the "pros" and "cons". :)

Anywhoo - In the U-19 team he was primarily a bowler who could also bat. A bowling all rounder and not a batsman we necessarily should look to use to be the next Bradman.

Shafin
January 15, 2007, 11:45 PM
About Sakib,Im sure he'll win in the big run.But about Farhad,I'm not so sure,Tapash Baishya can sometimes be a better replacement for him.

Kabir
January 16, 2007, 12:04 AM
Aye. I didn't express myself too clearly in the "but" sentence. I was trying to alternate the "pros" and "cons". :)

Anywhoo - In the U-19 team he was primarily a bowler who could also bat. A bowling all rounder and not a batsman we necessarily should look to use to be the next Bradman.

I just continued with your sentence, and thought I'ld complete it in my way :)
The reason was coz IMO, the pros that I mentioned completely outweighed the cons.

Can't agree more on the last comment...nicely put :up:

shovon13
January 16, 2007, 12:22 AM
oh puhleeze. The man had offered numerous viewpoints and whether they are emotional or whether they are laden with bovine excreta is a different matter. Now, a one-liner riposte that was obviously not complimentary and extremely obtuse is nothing more than wasted pixels. If the target takes offense, there is nothing 'PC" about it.

First of all, you had said "i'm embarrassed for you" which has quite a different semantic connotation from "i expressed my disappointment in your comments". Obviously our windy city denizen wasn't embarrassed to express his opinion and since you are embarrassed on his behalf, we would all like to be elucidated as to what exactly was so embarrassing? Inquiring minds want to know!

[as myself]

hahaha....i like that.

"Sakib is a performer as you showed in his report card. Some people are worried about his performance against big guns as they forgot his innings agains SL in the champions trophy." - he says sakib's lone 50 against srilanka (which wasn't the best inning i've ever seen) predicts in favor of his inclusion against big guns, despite of the fact that most of sakib's good innings came against the minnows.
"People who still think Ash is going to perform against big guns are completely in dark. A guy who don't have 'staying power' against Zim, will show it against Ind and SL!!! May you have some reasonable thinking powers." - then he contradicts himself by saying ash (who has a number of big innings against bigger oppositions on grander stages) is ant-like in his likeliness to succeed against elite teams when compared to sakib.

this isn't a backlash from a fan who puts ashraful ahead of bangladesh (i dont know where fazal gets the idea of such a fan from). i'm merely pointing out how people tend to hate ash equally illogically.

Zunaid
January 16, 2007, 12:33 AM
i'm merely pointing out how people tend to hate ash equally illogically.

Now this is getting interesting. :)

I think we tend to love and hate our heroes and villains quite illogically. Sometimes we love our villains and sometimes we hate our heroes. And, in our little cricketing back alley, they happen often happen to be the same person.

Spitfire_x86
January 16, 2007, 01:35 AM
Anywhoo - In the U-19 team he was primarily a bowler who could also bat. A bowling all rounder and not a batsman we necessarily should look to use to be the next Bradman.
Really? Then it further confirms my suspicion that we have a Rana jnr. in the making.

In the U-19 world cup, our top order batting failed in almost every matches (including Sakib)

Kabir
January 16, 2007, 10:08 AM
In the U-19 world cup, our top order batting failed in almost every matches (including Sakib)

Wasn't he a middle order in U-19 as well?

Fazal
January 16, 2007, 10:25 AM
this isn't a backlash from a fan who puts ashraful ahead of bangladesh (i dont know where fazal gets the idea of such a fan from). i'm merely pointing out how people tend to hate ash equally illogically.

Are you out of opponent buddy? Why bringing me down in this fist fight where there are already too many fans fighting with each other?

One quick advice (if you care to listen): No fans can save reckless superstar from falling to dust bean except for the superstar himself. And time is running out quickly for Ash either you admit it or not. Things are different now a days: if its not Sakib. mehrab, Rahim or Farhad, it will be Sadat, Tamim, nadif, or even Tapash, Sahrif or Dollar will force the issue. Those old days of free-ride are over.... produce in a consistent basis or else let other produce.....

And talking about logical and illigical? Just drink a glass of cold water and check the score cards... I am pretty sure you are smart enough tofigure it out who is producing and who is not now a days!!!!


btw Good Article to read Billah!!!

Spitfire_x86
January 16, 2007, 12:03 PM
Wasn't he a middle order in U-19 as well?
I don't remember very well. IIRC, he batted at #3 or #4.

It doesn't matter though. With top order I meant top/top-middle combined. Did he score a single 50 in the U-19 world cup? I think not.

Zunaid
January 16, 2007, 12:23 PM
I don't remember very well. IIRC, he batted at #3 or #4.

It doesn't matter though. With top order I meant top/top-middle combined. Did he score a single 50 in the U-19 world cup? I think not.

Yeah, in the play-off 5th place final v SL. A score of 67 of 63 balls. Bangladesh scored 278 and SL was bundled out for 180.

The other matches were low scoring or top and middle order faltered. They lost the one that mattered.

In the preceding U-19 Tri-series with Eng and SL his scores were 83, 5*, 8, 1, 1, 77, 100

He tops the Youth ODI for BD with runs scored. He is 4th begin Mehrab H, S Shuvo, Enamul in number of wickets (22 and avg 20.81).

Obviously those are not big leagues and he as mostly been meeting Zim/Ken/Sco in the top flight, I think it is way too early to either lionize or villianize him. Give the kid a year at least.

Kabir
January 16, 2007, 12:45 PM
To reiterate a point that a very many mentioned with their dissatisfaction over too many matches against Zimbabwe, I think it worked in favor of Sakib and the new guys though. I'm not trying to demoralize their effort...but the very fact that they played against weaker opponents allowed them to start small and grow big. So yes, Sakib did start small...and now he's growing big. Lets just hope he continues to do so...coz IMO, this guy's a gem.

Fazal
January 16, 2007, 12:52 PM
To reiterate a point that a very many mentioned with their dissatisfaction over too many matches against Zimbabwe, I think it worked in favor of Sakib and the new guys though.

But what happened to the older players like bashar, Ash, Pilot, Rafiq, etc. Some how they didn't get the same opportunity against ZIM to pad their stat (during that time)? Don't you see flaw in that logic?

Now we all know the young gun haven't played against stonger teams that much. Thats a valid point. And we will see how they do against them in future...and we have to wait and see ...... until then as Dr. Z mentioned it pointless to announce them either sure shot hero or goat. But one thing we already know, and that is in general term, they played better than the older players against weaker teams. SN and Mashrafee was the only exception among the established players.

BangladeshCricket
January 16, 2007, 12:53 PM
Our middle order is still fragile 'mentally' and lacking to find the 'gaps' and take 'singles'. We need atleast few years to find new found performers for better middle order. It could happen in next worldcup not this one.

Tigers_eye
January 16, 2007, 01:09 PM
Very nice and informative article. Keep up the good work.

The only thing I want to add is position 3 and 4 should not be considered as middle order. Those go to the top order (1 to 4). Position 5, 6, 7 and 8 as middle order and 9 to 11 as tail. Comparing a 7 with 3 is a bit far fetched. In all teams, a 7 has a dual duty and other rolls to play, whereas, mostly a 3 and 4 has one thing to do that is batting. More like comparing apples and oranges.

Miraz
January 16, 2007, 01:11 PM
The only thing I want to add is position 3 and 4 should not be considered as middle order. Those go to the top order (1 to 4). Position 5, 6, 7 and 8 as middle order and 9 to 11 as tail. Comparing a 7 with 3 is a bit far fetched. In all teams, a 7 has a dual duty and other rolls to pla,. whereas, mostly a 3 and 4 has one thing to do that is batting. More like comparing apples and oranges.<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
I differ with you bro :)

IMO,
Position 1-3 is - top order
Position 4-7 - Middle Order
Position 8-11 is tail

Tigers_eye
January 16, 2007, 01:19 PM
Great Miraz,
we both agree on 3 should not be in the middle order. :) That would stop all the bickering on Sakib.
As in test matches, most of the best batsmen use to play in 2nd down. Starting from Viv to nowaday Yousuf. I would want to believe they belong to the top order.

Miraz
January 16, 2007, 01:22 PM
Great Miraz,
As in test matches, most of the best batsmen use to play in 2nd down. Starting from Viv to nowaday Yousuf. I would want to believe they belong to the top order.

They are top quality batsmen played in the middle order. :)

israr
January 16, 2007, 02:38 PM
Excellent work, billah bhai.

al Furqaan
January 16, 2007, 03:37 PM
splendid analysis...

aftab's SR is only 74...it should be in the mid 80s at least with all the bashing he's done.

i think ash will do a better job and suit the team's needs batting at 6 for the time being.

Fazal
January 16, 2007, 03:53 PM
i think ash will do a better job and suit the team's needs batting at 6 for the time being.

Why nobody wants Ash at #2 slot anymore? :-D

#6 slot for a batsman is like cliffhanger...

http://www.trendpartnership.co.uk/i/cliff-hanger.gif


Ektu Norecho to Morecho....

BangladeshCricket
January 16, 2007, 03:57 PM
The scenario for batting at number 6 will change and instead of batting in last ten overs, number 6 batsmen have to come as early as 25-32 overs when playing agaisnt giants. So, unless otherwise we see that in WC, you cant justify that Ash,playing at #6, will do a better job. Our batsmen will do only good if they rectify their mistakes!!

shovon13
January 16, 2007, 06:29 PM
Are you out of opponent buddy? Why bringing me down in this fist fight where there are already too many fans fighting with each other?

One quick advice (if you care to listen): No fans can save reckless superstar from falling to dust bean except for the superstar himself. And time is running out quickly for Ash either you admit it or not. Things are different now a days: if its not Sakib. mehrab, Rahim or Farhad, it will be Sadat, Tamim, nadif, or even Tapash, Sahrif or Dollar will force the issue. Those old days of free-ride are over.... produce in a consistent basis or else let other produce.....

And talking about logical and illigical? Just drink a glass of cold water and check the score cards... I am pretty sure you are smart enough tofigure it out who is producing and who is not now a days!!!!


btw Good Article to read Billah!!!

i'm not running out of opponents fazal. we are all on the same team. err...i'm not fighting with anyone either. i thought faridpur, zunaid, me, and now you are having a discussion, seeing how this is a forum for such purposes. i've admitted many times that my tone perhaps is a bit harsh and i dont communicate in the most pleasant way, but in the end all i'm doing is just getting my opinions across.

going back to topic - of course of course! i agree with all that. i've said so myself a number of times that ash needs to perform consistently. yet we set the bar so high for ashraful, we put so much pressure on him on a day to day basis - its a delight that he hasn't needed a shrink yet (although i would advise one for our team nonetheless). going back to faridpur's first post - i pointed out how unfair he was towards ash as he used double standards to compare ashraful and sakib's performance in the past year. you have to agree with me on this - nobody on our team shoulders as much expections as ashraful. sakib, farhad et al had close to none - as they knew we were likely to win against zimbabwe anyway even if they failed.

Spitfire_x86
January 16, 2007, 08:02 PM
I differ with you bro :)

IMO,
Position 1-3 is - top order
Position 4-7 - Middle Order
Position 8-11 is tail
IMO,

1-4: Top order
4-6: Middle Order
4-5: Top Middle Order
6-7: Lower Middle Order
8-11: Lower Order + Tail