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RazabQ
February 22, 2007, 02:42 AM
which are relevant to us as well. This is from Mike Selvey's piece on the Guardian:... First, the pitches. These will be an unknown quantity: England have played two matches in Beausejour on St Lucia - failing twice to defend 280 at a time when that represented a substantial total - but their games in Antigua and Guyana will be at new venues, and Barbados has been redeveloped and the pitch relaid.

However, Caribbean pitches are sluggish generally and new surfaces are rarely anything but that in any case. As is shown too frequently, England do not possess sufficient bowlers with skills to cope with that, nor do they possess batsmen - beyond Kevin Pietersen and Flintoff - with a weight of stroke. Nor, incidentally, given that there are no day/night games or dewfall, is the ball likely to hoop around, so the England pace bowlers will be denied the conditions in which they tend to thrive. Their one-day history in the Caribbean does not make pretty reading and this is part of the reason.

Next, the grounds themselves. In the West Indies these tend to have small playing areas so, with the inclusion now of extra powerplays, scoring may be immense. In contrast the large grounds of Australia allow the scamperers, such as Paul Collingwood, to flourish. This World Cup will be a good hunting ground for the hitters of fours and sixes, and England - especially at the top of the order - cannot produce that.

In this context, I do think the selectors have taken the right risk in including Tamim in the side and based on the NTV story, giving him preference in partnering with SI. One could argue in favor of one of Mohammedan's two explosive openers but they have not had the international exposure of TI (age-group, Zim-tour) and are too raw.

Also in this context, Aftab & Ash have to play. Rajin couldn't club a six if you gave him a long hop on leg-stump and JO, well...[বাংলা]মন্তব্য নিঃস্প্রয়োজন[/বাংলা] :)

Finally, I'm tending even more towards playing 3 spinners. Provided Razzak can control his tendency to slide one ball per over down leg side, our brand of fastish, skiddy SLAs just might be what the doctor orders to keep the marauding sluggers of India, SL, et al at bay.

URL:http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/sport/2007/02/22/tired_australia_are_there_for.html

Rubu
February 22, 2007, 08:23 AM
Can't agree Razab bhai. All Rajjak has done so far is bully around in sub-continental pitches against the likes of Zim Kenya or Scotland. We do not know how he will differ against the big boys. Not to mention SL and IND are the two best team against spin. On WI pitches, I'm afraid he will not quite useful (bermuda aside). I have not included him in my playing 11. I will go with Rafiq and both shahadat and Rasel. Rasel, with his nagging line and length can eat up half of the power play, and shahadat can come as first chance. That is our only chance.

Tigers_eye
February 22, 2007, 09:18 AM
1st when Rafiq played against a big team how much experience did he have playing big teams? Yeah! I thought so.

Razzak is a quality player. has a better econ rate, has a better strike rate than rafique. He will continue to have that side by side both facing the same opponents.

3 spinner it is. Shahadat for the 1st, Rasel for the second.

Another option is sit Ash and take rafiq as an allrounder. We would have 6 bowlers then. The tail would be way weak but that is an option exploiting India. It is a do or die match.

Orpheus
February 22, 2007, 09:23 AM
actually Rubu, razzak is a better bowler than you are giving him credit for. I am assuming you saw his bowling...Judging a bowler against any opponent is much easier than judging a batsman...

I am hoping you didn't forget his bowling against Australia...Here are his non-crappy team wickets


14-16 1st ODI v Aus at Chittagong (CDS), 2005/06 [2365 (http://stats.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/2005-06/AUS_IN_BDESH/SCORECARDS/AUS_BDESH_ODI1_23APR2006.html)]
2 AC Gilchrist lbw 76
2 A Symonds lbw 0
2 RT Ponting lbw 14


17-17 2nd ODI v Aus at Fatullah, 2005/06 [2366 (http://stats.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/2005-06/AUS_IN_BDESH/SCORECARDS/AUS_BDESH_ODI2_26APR2006.html)]
1 MEK Hussey bowled 18
18-18 3rd ODI v Aus at Fatullah, 2005/06 [2367 (http://stats.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/2005-06/AUS_IN_BDESH/SCORECARDS/AUS_BDESH_ODI3_28APR2006.html)]

2 MJ Cosgrove bowled 74


31-32 ICC CT (1st Match) v SL at Chandigarh (Punjab C (d/n), 2006/07 [2423 (http://stats.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/2006-07/OD_TOURNEYS/ICCCT/SCORECARDS/BDESH_SL_ICCCT_ODI1_07OCT2006.html)]
1 DPMD Jayawardene c Aftab Ahmed 35
1 WPUJC Vaas c Farhad Reza 4

only concern is that we played against aus at home spinner friendly pitch...

sadi
February 22, 2007, 09:32 AM
How effective can Razzak be against India or Srilanka who plays spin really well? Good question. We shall find out how good Razzak really is outside subcontinent when he plays against New Zealand. If he doesn't do too bad, then I am pretty sure he will be in the main eleven against India on March 17th.

Rubu
February 22, 2007, 09:43 AM
My question is not between rajjak or rafique. Swap them if you must, but not both togather. We need mash, rasel and shahadat in the team if we are to do anthing against SL or IND.

Mind it, two things coming into play at the same time, two best team of playing spin, non-spin friendly pitch. its between 2 spin 2 pace and 1 spin 3 pace. I'll go with the latter.

Orpheus
February 22, 2007, 09:49 AM
point noted Rubu. I don't think we have any 3rd spinner :)

.... But it will be extremely difficult to choose between razzaq and rafiq. I want to take razzaq but leaving out rafiq feels like a crime because he is that good.

Both will probably play... let's see how it goes in the practice match.

sadi
February 22, 2007, 09:57 AM
Well the 3rd spinner will play all the games no matter what and he is Sakib. So we are playing two spinners in all the games and in some games, we may play three spinners.

Tigers_eye
February 22, 2007, 10:09 AM
Most likely regardless the competition we are facing, Shahadat or Rasel will give more runs than Sakib, Rafiq or Razzak.

Shahadat or Rasel can easily go for 10 overs 65-85.
I don't see Razzak/Rafiq getting hammared like that. Why give the extra 20 runs? And with Shahadat and Rasel the tail becomes non-existant. double advantage Opponents.

Now if you are worried about Mash finishing the innings, last couple of matches it was Razzak who finished the innings.

If running game is your strength and opponent has one of the strongest run-defense you don't change gameplans right before the match. You keep doing what brought you success in the first place. Let us see if the unmovable objects can be replaced by the unstopable force. Lets see how good the Indians are, playing 30 overs of SLAs.

akabir77
February 22, 2007, 10:13 AM
No matter what i will take razzak anyday over rasel or shadat. Rassell's nagging acuracy??? r u kidding me? have you watched what he did when they were putting him allover the park?? I will take my chance with my best bowlers. I think shadat should be there as india is afraid of playing fast balls.

Tigers_eye
February 22, 2007, 10:15 AM
3 spinners is the way to go.

"incidentally, given that there are no day/night games or dewfall, is the ball likely to hoop around, so the England pace bowlers will be denied the conditions in which they tend to thrive." - From RazabQ's post.

If the English fast bowlers can't reap benefit how can Shahadat or Rasel reap benefit from the pitches that we will play?

Rubu
February 22, 2007, 10:27 AM
You guys keep forgetting who we are playing against. Even Warne gets hammered against IND, what can rajjak rafique do in WI pitch?

Do you remember, who was the best bowler in WI at our last tour there? Believe it or not, it was TAPOSH!!!!

Rafique in that tour got only 1/2 wickets and in Test/ODI(forgot which one) he went wicketless. And that was against WI, one of the worst in playing spin (lara aside). If you think Rajjak is 10 times better than rafique, I have nothing to say. Otherwise, do the [বাংলা]ঐকিক নিয়ম[/বাংলা] math:

If Rafique in 2 Test and 3 ODI against WI(2) gets 2 wickets
Then Rajjak in 0 Test and 2 ODI against SL/IND(10) gets ? wickets

here, if WI is 2 at playing spin, SL/IND is 10.

What do you get? Is Rasel Shahadat a better bowler than Taposh?

oracle
February 22, 2007, 10:30 AM
Including Razzak was a logical choice especially as he has in fact previous West Indies experience of the pitches.

akabir77
February 22, 2007, 10:51 AM
You guys keep forgetting who we are playing against. Even Warne gets hammered against IND, what can rajjak rafique do in WI pitch?

Do you remember, who was the best bowler in WI at our last tour there? Believe it or not, it was TAPOSH!!!!

Rafique in that tour got only 1/2 wickets and in Test/ODI(forgot which one) he went wicketless. And that was against WI, one of the worst in playing spin (lara aside). If you think Rajjak is 10 times better than rafique, I have nothing to say. Otherwise, do the [বাংলা]ঐকিক নিয়ম[/বাংলা] math:

If Rafique in 2 Test and 3 ODI against WI(2) gets 2 wickets
Then Rajjak in 0 Test and 2 ODI against SL/IND(10) gets ? wickets

here, if WI is 2 at playing spin, SL/IND is 10.

What do you get? Is Rasel Shahadat a better bowler than Taposh?

Understand your Uikik niom but not every thing is that simple... You have to know that at that time bd was below kenya in pointable. Our spinners didn't had much idea where to bowl to WI and also WI r not the worst against spin... Chnaderpaul, gyle and others r pretty good too.
And with your logic if england bowlers get hammered what chances do u think out fast bowlers got?
DO i need to do the oikik here for your understanding. On thing for sure they r much better bowler then shadat and rassel...

Orpheus
February 22, 2007, 11:04 AM
Well the 3rd spinner will play all the games no matter what and he is Sakib. So we are playing two spinners in all the games and in some games, we may play three spinners.
:) you are right. Razab bhai was also referring to this I believe.

Sauron
February 22, 2007, 11:19 AM
Good find Razab.

My playing 11 included Rajin and not Ash. But this report, provided it is accurate, changes it. Ash should be in and Rajin out.

Definitely no 3rd pacer.

Definitely Razzak and Rafiq both in.

Saqib will be the 3rd spinner.

Farhad
February 22, 2007, 11:45 AM
Im surprised that some people brought up Rasel in this thread. Given what we just read (or most of us anyway) - given what this whole thread is based on - I'd expect some Rasel bashing to be going on. Anyhoo, heres why:
Nor, incidentally, given that there are no day/night games or dewfall, is the ball likely to hoop around, so the England pace bowlers will be denied the conditions in which they tend to thrive
Given that Rasels strength is his swing.......Need I say more?

This too (which would justify why should have as few pacers as possible) :
However, Caribbean pitches are sluggish generally and new surfaces are rarely anything but that in any case.


Summing up: Rasel isnt quick, he isnt accurate. All he can do is swing (and swing it well i might add). That is something that wont even help in these wickets according to this great find by Razabq. Maybe our spinners will get blasted by EEndia and SL, but whats the alternative? Going in with Rasel instead? A guy who, as ive just mentioned, is not at all suitable given the conditions? If what Mike Selvey says is correct, we have to go in with three spinners. Weve got no alternative

RazabQ
February 22, 2007, 12:46 PM
WRT to India & SL playing spinners well - you have to understand Warne, Murali vs. Rafique/Razzak/Sakib are not the same thing at all. Those two are classical spinners relying on flight, loop as well as prodiguous turn. However they also tend to be slower through the air - and thus vulnerable to batsmen with great footwork (such as the Eeedian batters). Our trio are more of the skiddy spin variety. Sakib used to be a pace bowler (during BD A tour of England he even opened the bowling). So was Rafique. Razzak is a tall guy. So all three are fairly quick through the air and their stock deliveries are pretty flattish. These guys rely on bowling stump-to-stump (while Warne/Murali can bowl a foot outside the wickets and hit em). On variable bounce and pace, and the occasional (minimal side-spin). While this style of bowling is useless in Tests (No wickets for Razzak against Aus, Rafique bowls with more loop and guile), it is perfect for ODIs and Windies in particular. Some other bowlers to compare these 3 would be Chris Gayle, S. Jayasuria, A Kumble, S Afridi. All are very effective, economic _AND_ wicket taking options in ODIs no matter what the pitch, and more so on sluggish, newly laid ones.

Finally, here are the stats for Rafique & Rana (Sakib beta version) from the 3 ODIs:

Mat O R W BB1 BB2 Ave Econ SR 4w 5w
Rafique 3 19.4 69 0 - - - 3.50 - 0 0
Rana 3 20 70 5 3/21 1/21 14.00 3.50 24. 0 0 0
Notice the economy rate against a big hitting team chasing low scores in small grounds :) Much as I'd like a fellow southpaw to get a game, it's gotta be Masree & Shahadat and then the spin trio.

Rubu
February 22, 2007, 01:11 PM
Including Razzak was a logical choice especially as he has in fact previous West Indies experience of the pitches.

How does his stats look in WI? I know people have very high expectations on this guy, but I just feel like I have not seen enough. He is still unproven to me, and I hate to know that the hard way in the world cup (the same reason I want to open with Rajin than Tamim, at least I know what rajin and rasel can do, I don't know that about tamim and rajjak). Now, lets explain why I think razzak is still unproven: he played only one game against india, at a game when his action was suspicious. And rasel did not play against india. So, I will leave that comparison out. What they have against SL?


Blr Mat O R W BB1 BB2 Ave Econ SR 4w 5w

Razzak 3 19 110 2 2/49 - 55.00 5.78 57.0 0 0
Rasel 7 62 294 10 2/28 2/42 29.40 4.74 37.2 0 0
Rana 5 24 110 2 1/18 1/47 55.00 4.58 72.0 0 0

Does anyone else see the obvious difference here? Need I mention it was played in spin friendly pitch?

One argument that might come is that, in WI, Rana was spectacular. Well, rana is not razzak. They are different bowlers.

(added Rana's performance in the table just because he came in the discussion. Somehow, he has the best economy rate :wow: )

al Furqaan
February 22, 2007, 01:26 PM
i like the 3 spinner strategy (rafiq-razzak-saqib) with mash and rajib opening...

its true, rubu, that razzak has destroyed minnows...but he has also done much better than rafique. now over one or 2 matches it doesn't say much. but they have played 20 odd matches. tracks are same, matches are same, batsman are same, game situation is same, but statistics are different and in razzak's favor.

razzak is a better ODI bowler than rafique. against IND and SL he might go for 55 or even 60 runs (not if he bowls all in the middle overs) but he will also take at least 2 wickets, possibly 3. rafique will take 1 wicket on average and concede 40 runs. the wicket taking by razzak, will bring pressure to the new batsman, which may possibly slow things down.

saqib is untested, but i have a feeling he will do OK.

Tigers_eye
February 22, 2007, 01:33 PM
How about this stat:
Razzak ranked 12th.
Rasel ranked 80th.
Shahadat ranked 86th.

...Need I mention it was played in spin friendly pitch?
Wasn't it the match which was over casted and Tharanga and Jaya could only manage 28 runs in the first 10 overs and later on when the cloud covers were gone they piled 300+?

One argument that might come is that, in WI, Rana was spectacular. Well, rana is not razzak. They are different bowlers.
Yup they are different bowlers. Razzak is better than Rana according to the selectors. That's why he is in the team.

No matter which bowling combination we put forth, Indian batting line up is more than capable of scoring 300+. With spinners it is less likely. Heck they would score more if they face their own bowling line up of Harbi, Agarkar, Pathan, Zaheer, Tendu, Kumble, Shewag. Dhoni would score a double century on that lineup.

India has the weakest bowling lineup among test playing nations.

Among the three test teams in group C, ours are the second best bowling lineup behind SL. Batting side we are the worst. Fielding wise, if we can be the first then the playing field will be even and we would have a chance of winning both of the games.

sadi
February 22, 2007, 01:44 PM
No matter which bowling combination we put forth, Indian batting line up is more than capable of scoring 300+. With spinners it is less likely. Heck they would score more if they face their own bowling line up of Harbi, Agarkar, Pathan, Zaheer, Tendu, Kumble, Shewag. Dhoni would score a double century on that lineup.

India has the weakest bowling lineup among test playing nations.

Among the three test teams in group C, ours are the second best bowling lineup behind SL.

As much as I like our bowling attack, India's bowling attack is still way better than us. Harbajan and Kumble are great and will do better than Razzak and Rafique on any given day. I would rate Mashrafee and Zaheer Khan almost same right now. Patel has lot more variation than our speedy Shahadat and can be more effective.

Rubu
February 22, 2007, 01:58 PM
AF bro, the discussion is not between Razzak and Rafique and who is better. The argument is about whether Rasel should play or Razzak.


How about this stat:
Razzak ranked 12th.
Rasel ranked 80th.
Shahadat ranked 86th.
Oh Please! Don't tell me you don't know how he got this ranking. In case you don't, playing against ZIM kenya and Scotland who does not know how to play spin. Get [বাংলা]সলিমুদ্দির ভাই কলিমুদ্দি[/বাংলা] to play against them only and you will see similar result. And if you are not aware of it, neither 3 of them are in our group in WC.

Yup they are different bowlers. Razzak is better than Rana according to the selectors. That's why he is in the team. According to the selectors, JO is one of the best opener of the country. Alok is best suited at #9 and Shanto is a national quality pacer. Need I say more? I added another row for Rana in that table of playing against SL. have a look. He has about 1.2 runs a over less than Razzak. But lets not get there, he is not in the team and has no chance to play. Lets get to the point of Razzak vs Rasel.

Wasn't it the match which was over casted and Tharanga and Jaya could only manage 28 runs in the first 10 overs and later on when the cloud covers were gone they piled 300+? overcast In all 7 matches? Please!

With spinners it is less likely.
What make you think that?

If you guys don't see the obvious difference between playing ZIM Kenya Scotland Vs SL IND, I don't see the point why we are having this discussion.

Pure and simply, we don't have data against india, and when we have data against SL, Rasel clearly outclasses Razzak (see for yourself in my earlier post). Then... Oh I forgot Razzak ripped through zim, kenya, scott... sorry.

roaring tigerz
February 22, 2007, 04:19 PM
who cares what Mike Selvy says? Who is he anyways? I am sure you guys are not reconsidering our team selection according to his 'expert analysis' of WI conditions.

I absolutely believe we choose play either one of Rafiq or Razzak but not both. But our past selections and the indications given by the management makes me pretty sure that its not gonna happen.

Beamer
February 22, 2007, 11:22 PM
We have to play to our strength and at the moment the left spin duo of rafiq-razzak are our strenghts. The news on the new pitch is encouraging from that stand point. I am however, very afraid of Sakib getting full ten overs. You know they will target him. I hope he can hold his nerves and bowl tight. But, what other bowling option we have from among the batsmen? None. Aftab hasn't bowled a lot lately but we might be forced to give him a few overs. If only one among SN, TI, HB, ASh could give us three-four very good servicable overs, I would have breathed easier..

RazabQ
February 22, 2007, 11:59 PM
Actually aftab's dibbly dobblers could work on these pitches. He could be our Larsen - remember how effective he was on NZ?

RazabQ
February 23, 2007, 02:30 AM
More gist for the 3 spinner mill. From Cricinfo (Best ODI Bowler @ Death by S Rajesh):Some of the other names in the list are interesting too. Marlon Samuels and Chris Gayle prove the effectiveness of firing the offies flat and fast in the last few overs, while their presence also explains West Indies' position as the best team at the death. In fact, the preponderance of slow bowlers also suggests that's the route more teams might opt for during the World Cup.
Checkout the whole piece:http://content-ind.cricinfo.com/columns/content/story/281283.html
Really makes for an interesting reading.

Mridul
February 23, 2007, 08:14 AM
Lets play both Rasel and Razzak against Srilanka; play Shahadat instead Rasel against India.

Habibul played Aftab for Mohamedan and whenever he handed the ball to Aftab, he got wickets. So, I am guessing, Habibul will use Aftab as the third pacer.