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Moshin
September 30, 2007, 11:59 AM
There are four schools of law in Islam in the Sunni sector, these include Hanafi, Shafi'i, Malaki and Hanabi, but all of these confuse me between thier laws and regualtions, and I cannot decide which on is really the right one, plus there is a new type of school that has been formed, called the Salafi movement, they say they follow the rules from the beggining of time.

al Furqaan
September 30, 2007, 12:08 PM
Ramadan poll: There are four schools of law in Islam in the Sunni sector, these include Hanafi, Shafi'i, Malaki and Hanabi, but all of these confuse me between thier laws and regualtions, and I cannot decide which on is really the right one, plus there is a new type of school that has been formed, called the Salafi movement, they say they follow the rules from the beggining of time.

they are all correct. in fact, each of the four recognize the veracity of the other 3. its a matter of what you are born into and what your personal beliefs are...i myself find that i end up blending ideas from the four mathabs/imams although i am technically, like most subcontinent muslims, a hanafi.

more important than what mathab we follow, is figuring out if the islam you have is the same islam that the quran expounds.

Nafi
September 30, 2007, 04:23 PM
I dont follow a sect I simply am muslim and go by one book, Al Quran

Sohel
September 30, 2007, 04:33 PM
I dont follow a sect I simply am muslim and go by one book, Al Quran

Echo those feelings and thoughts.

al Furqaan
September 30, 2007, 06:01 PM
Echo those feelings and thoughts.

as do i...

Alien
September 30, 2007, 07:08 PM
I dont follow a sect I simply am muslim and go by one book, Al Quran

Same here.

I never heard some of those "schools" until quite recently.

BD-Shardul
October 1, 2007, 05:58 AM
Actually, Islam is very broad, and genral public like us cannot follow it properly without following a school. There four schools, and each of them them is right in their own way. All other schools or -ism that exists are void, and that's why to follow Islam properly, we must choose one of the four schools of Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaayat.

Antora
October 1, 2007, 06:11 AM
this is soooooo confusing...see the thing i know is our religion is islam..we are muslims and the muslim people are broken into sunni shiya etc etc. but now schools?:o why is this soo confusing? im embarrassed to say i dont now what school i follow :(.....[ this goes to show my great knowledge of my own religion..im ashamed in myself]

BD-Shardul
October 1, 2007, 07:40 AM
Antora it is easy:

Muslim are divided into two groups:

(1) Sunni: They are original the Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jamayaat. All Khulafaye Rashedin, Sahabi, Tabeyi, and Tabe-tabeins are of this group.

(2) Shia: This group came into exsistence after the death of our holy prophet.

Sunnis are divided into four schools or creed: Hanafi, Shafei, Hambli, and Maleki.

One of the current makkah imams, Al Shuraim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuraim) is a specialist about the schools of Islam.

ammark
October 1, 2007, 07:48 AM
is creating divisions, segmentising, differentiating and reclassifying the faith the fashion these days? Or is ahl-as-sunnah-wal-jama'ah an appropriate definition? Of the people who stand in congregation in the tradition of the prophet?

The madhabs are about jurisprudence (fiqh) before anything else. They are not the first word or system of Islam. Please dont confuse people by asking what madhab they follow. If anything, please read the article given by BanCricFan in the shab-e-barat thread.

As mod: Religion should be left to individual choices on this otherwise apolitical, and secular forum. Lets not get into judgements about individuals in any way.

Alien
October 1, 2007, 08:51 AM
is creating divisions, segmentising, differentiating and reclassifying the faith the fashion these days? Or is ahl-as-sunnah-wal-jama'ah an appropriate definition? Of the people who stand in congregation in the tradition of the prophet?


My understanding is that when a religion (such as Islam, Christianity, Buddhism etc) grows exponentially and crosses several continents, it no longer stays intact. It's not to create divisions but just takes up a local flavour when it arrives at a new place.

Thankfully in case of Islam, it remained loosely intact due to the strict insistence for adherence to Quran. And any segments only varies politically (say which Imam to follow, which was good, which was bad, which hadith is unreliable etc) not religiously (like Christianity where one sect varies vastly with another in many cases).

On that note the thread question remains just but fact is most muslims (and thankfully may I add) don't go into the classifications. Indulging too much into those creates the division if at all.

Puck
October 1, 2007, 09:50 AM
Ramadan poll: There are four schools of law in Islam in the Sunni sector, these include Hanafi, Shafi'i, Malaki and Hanabi, but all of these confuse me between thier laws and regualtions, and I cannot decide which on is really the right one, plus there is a new type of school that has been formed, called the Salafi movement, they say they follow the rules from the beggining of time.

you might want to do do a little research within this forum. there are multiple posts about islamic jurisprudence including several by myself. almost 90% of south asian muslims were born into the hanafi madhab. there is no such school as hanabi, the school you were referring to is named after ahmad bin hanbal and thus named the hanbali school. each of the school is considered to be a creed and their following is seperated into geographical areas based on historical pattens of migration and conquest. it should be stressed that each of these madhabs are simply a way of interpreting (ijtihad) the fiqh. from which shariyya derive.

salafism basically refers to a return to the basic. for the purpose of your question, it means returning to the traditions followed by the first three generation of muslims. the basic idea is that human beings are possesed with reason. so they ought to make an effort to read the quran, read about the life of the prophet and prophetic traditions, and then use his internal faculties to reason, and thereby come to a conclusion about any specifics of islamic observance. ijtihad is the common term used to define interpretation.

i'd advise you to stop focusing on the madhabs or schools of jurisprudence and focus on islam itself. the latter refers to achieving peace within oneself and within one's community. one doesn't need schools of interpretation to achieve peace.

Tigers_eye
October 1, 2007, 09:56 AM
Actually, Islam is very broad, and genral public like us cannot follow it properly without following a school. There four schools, and each of them them is right in their own way. All other schools or -ism that exists are void, and that's why to follow Islam properly, we must choose one of the four schools of Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaayat.
Who said that? Any reference which connects to the Quran or the Prophet (Peace be upon him)?

How hard it is for the general public to believe in Allah and his messengers, his books, his angles, and the hereafter, give charity, be humble, perform hajj if one has the ability, say his/her prayers and fast, and not commit major sins? If this was that hard then Allah wouldn't prescribe us this religion. Madhab is created by Human. There are many things about future which is mentioned in the Holy Quran but that do not include madhab. If Madhab was that important then certainly the All-Knowing would have had mentioned it.

The words "cannot" and "must" is disturbing. You may want to rephrase the post. Relaying what one knows is very good. But trying to make it as the only way of life is not a good idea.

BanCricFan
October 1, 2007, 10:47 AM
i'd advise you to stop focusing on the madhabs or schools of jurisprudence and focus on islam itself. the latter refers to achieving peace within oneself and within one's community. one doesn't need schools of interpretation to achieve peace.

The Quran commands us "Ask the people of knowledge (devout ulama) if you don't know". The quran also asks a rhetorical question "Are those who don't know equal to those who know?"

Therfore, I would say one DOES need "schools of jurisprudence" to practise Islam with knowledge and assurity to fulfill the aim which is success here and hereafter. Islam is a sophisticated way of life or a system and this has not come about without a methodology or a infra-stucrture!

BanCricFan
October 1, 2007, 11:07 AM
Here is an excellent article/paper on the importance of following a madhab (school of Fiqh):

http://members.cox.net/arshad/newmadhh.htm

ialbd
October 1, 2007, 12:52 PM
whichever school calculates the earliest Maghrib/Iftaar !!!

just kidding.... ajke roja dhore gese.....

al Furqaan
October 1, 2007, 12:58 PM
Who said that? Any reference which connects to the Quran or the Prophet (Peace be upon him)?

How hard it is for the general public to believe in Allah and his messengers, his books, his angles, and the hereafter, give charity, be humble, perform hajj if one has the ability, say his/her prayers and fast, and not commit major sins? If this was that hard then Allah wouldn't prescribe us this religion. Madhab is created by Human. There are many things about future which is mentioned in the Holy Quran but that do not include madhab. If Madhab was that important then certainly the All-Knowing would have had mentioned it.

The words "cannot" and "must" is disturbing. You may want to rephrase the post. Relaying what one knows is very good. But trying to make it as the only way of life is not a good idea.

yes the mathab's were created by humans, hence the eponymous nature of them.

BanCricFan
October 1, 2007, 05:24 PM
If Madhab was that important then certainly the All-Knowing would have had mentioned it.



Allah commands us in the Qur'an, "Ask the people of knowledge (remembrance) if you dont know".

Obviously, if one knows then he or she isn't obliged to follow a Madhab. Let me put this in perspective- Imam Al-Ghazzali, Imam Muhammad As-Shaibani, Imam An-Nabawi, Imam Ibn- Hajar Al-Asqalani, Imam Ibn-Rushd, Shaykh Ibn-Al-Arabi, Imam Al-Bukhari, Imam Muslim An-Nisapuri, Imam At-Tirmidhi, Ibn Khaldun, Imam Ibn At-Taymiyyah et el followed a madhab, although, they all were "mujtahid mutlaq" (absolute scholars) by their own right. The prerequisites of "Ijtihad" (independent reasoning) are explained below by Shaykh Abdal Hakim Murad who is a professor of theology at Cambridge University:


In order to protect the Shariah from the danger of innovation and distortion, the great scholars of usul (foundation of Islamic sciences)* laid down rigorous conditions which must be fulfilled by anyone wishing to claim the right of ijtihad for himself. These conditions include: (a) mastery of the Arabic language, to minimise the possibility of misinterpreting Revelation on purely linguistic grounds;
(b) a profound knowledge of the Quran and Sunnah and the circumstances surrounding the revelation of each verse and hadith, together with a full knowledge of the Quranic and hadith commentaries, and a control of all the interpretative techniques discussed above;
(c) knowledge of the specialised disciplines of hadith, such as the assessment of narrators and of the matn [text];
(d) knowledge of the views of the Companions, Followers and the great imams, and of the positions and reasoning expounded in the textbooks of fiqh, combined with the knowledge of cases where a consensus (ijma) has been reached;
(e) knowledge of the science of juridical analogy (qiyas), its types and conditions;
(f) knowledge of ones own society and of public interest (maslahah);
(g) knowing the general objectives (maqasid) of the Shariah; (h) a high degree of intelligence and personal piety, combined with the Islamic virtues of compassion, courtesy, and modesty.


http://members.cox.net/arshad/newmadhh.htm

adel
October 1, 2007, 06:33 PM
Just a question, when it comes down to it, does it make a difference to what sect or school we belong to?

The fact is, in the end we all go to one place, and that it is to Allah.

BanCricFan
October 1, 2007, 07:02 PM
Just a question, when it comes down to it, does it make a difference to what sect or school we belong to?

The fact is, in the end we all go to one place, and that it is to Allah.


"The Holy Quran commands Muslims to use their minds and reflective capacities; and the issue of following qualified scholarship is an area in which this faculty must be very carefully deployed. The basic point should be appreciated that no categoric difference exists between usul al-fiqh and any other specialised science requiring lengthy training. Shaykh Said Ramadan al-Buti, who has articulated the orthodox response to the anti-Madhhab trend in his book: Non-Madhhabism: The Greatest Bida Threatening the Islamic Sharia, likes to compare the science of deriving rulings to that of medicine. "If ones child is seriously ill", he asks, "does one look for oneself in the medical textbooks for the proper diagnosis and cure, or should one go to a trained medical practitioner?" Clearly, sanity dictates the latter option. And so it is in matters of religion, which are in reality even more important and potentially hazardous: we would be both foolish and irresponsible to try to look through the sources ourselves, and become our own muftis. Instead, we should recognise that those who have spent their entire lives studying the Sunnah and the principles of law are far less likely to be mistaken than we are.
Another metaphor might be added to this, this time borrowed from astronomy. We might compare the Quranic verses and the hadiths to the stars. With the naked eye, we are unable to see many of them clearly; so we need a telescope. If we are foolish, or proud, we may try to build one ourselves. If we are sensible and modest, however, we will be happy to use one built for us by Imam al-Shafi'i or Ibn Hanbal, and refined, polished and improved by generations of great astronomers. A madhhab is, after all, nothing more than a piece of precision equipment enabling us to see Islam with the maximum clarity possible. If we use our own devices, our amateurish attempts will inevitably distort our vision. "

-Understanding the four madhabs

adel
October 1, 2007, 11:09 PM
"The Holy Quran commands Muslims to use their minds and reflective capacities; and the issue of following qualified scholarship is an area in which this faculty must be very carefully deployed. The basic point should be appreciated that no categoric difference exists between usul al-fiqh and any other specialised science requiring lengthy training. Shaykh Said Ramadan al-Buti, who has articulated the orthodox response to the anti-Madhhab trend in his book: Non-Madhhabism: The Greatest Bida Threatening the Islamic Sharia, likes to compare the science of deriving rulings to that of medicine. "If ones child is seriously ill", he asks, "does one look for oneself in the medical textbooks for the proper diagnosis and cure, or should one go to a trained medical practitioner?" Clearly, sanity dictates the latter option. And so it is in matters of religion, which are in reality even more important and potentially hazardous: we would be both foolish and irresponsible to try to look through the sources ourselves, and become our own muftis. Instead, we should recognise that those who have spent their entire lives studying the Sunnah and the principles of law are far less likely to be mistaken than we are.
Another metaphor might be added to this, this time borrowed from astronomy. We might compare the Quranic verses and the hadiths to the stars. With the naked eye, we are unable to see many of them clearly; so we need a telescope. If we are foolish, or proud, we may try to build one ourselves. If we are sensible and modest, however, we will be happy to use one built for us by Imam al-Shafi'i or Ibn Hanbal, and refined, polished and improved by generations of great astronomers. A madhhab is, after all, nothing more than a piece of precision equipment enabling us to see Islam with the maximum clarity possible. If we use our own devices, our amateurish attempts will inevitably distort our vision. "

-Understanding the four madhabs

Thank you, BanCricFan bhai.
Please pardon my prior ignorance.

BanCricFan
October 2, 2007, 02:43 AM
...each of the school is considered to be a creed and their following is seperated into geographical areas based on historical pattens of migration and conquest... .

Could you please expand this a bit more? Not sure I quite understand.

BanCricFan
October 2, 2007, 02:53 AM
Adel, no problem, bro! We have been given very little knowledge, indeed. Sooner we realize this and humble ourselves the better for us!

There is nothing wrong in admitting that we cannot know everything. And there is nothing wrong in asking a scholar or someone who has more knowledge than us. This is in essence what Madhab is.

Rumz_01
October 2, 2007, 10:35 AM
Im told i follow the hanafi school, but this has no significance to me because i dont actually no anything about them, or their purpose..? So at the end of the day, like almost everyone else has stated, the fact that we are all Muslims submitting to Almighty Allah is all that matters!

Sohel
October 2, 2007, 01:56 PM
I'll start with an extensive quotation for a close, good faith, non-reactionary reading. I encourage all those interested to visit the website and explore it in detail to address specific concerns and issues, all of which in the website use the Holy Quraan as the only reference. If you visit the quoted page in the website, you'll find all the links that provide the Quraanic rationale behind its claims. I have no desire to engage in debate with anybody who doesn't use the detail and duly contextualized content of the website in order to refute its claims.

http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/c11b17bba6.gif (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)

"...O people of the Scripture, let us come to a common agreement between us and between you; that 1) we do not serve except God, and 2) do not set up anything at all with Him, and 3) that none of us takes each other as patrons besides God...." (The Message 3:64)

This website has been created for all people who have a desire to allow God into their lives and follow His path alone...

This website invites all people of various beliefs (Sunni, Shia, Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Bahai, Agnostic, Humanist, and even Atheists) to come and examine for themselves the system of Submission/Islam which is based on God Alone.

Many of you may outwardly be content with your current faith or that which you inherited from your parents and community...but to some out there, there will always be a tugging at the back of their mind that 'there is something more', and that 'some things don't always make sense'...

If you are one of those people, then open your eyes, put on your thinking cap, and welcome to an open examination of the system of Submission/Islam which very few know about...

WHAT IS Islam?

The system of God "Islam/Submission" has been taught to us through God and His messenger and is fully outlined in the final Book of God (The Qur'an) which was revealed centuries ago...

The Qur'an claims legitimacy for itself and within itself, allowing NO room for self-made priests, or religious leaders, who have distorted and misquoted the Book of God to give themselves authority and partnership with the Almighty...

“'Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this Scripture fully detailed?'” Those to whom We have given the Scripture know it is sent down from your Lord with truth; so do not be of those who have doubt." (The Message 6:114 )

"Say: 'Which is the greatest testimony?' Say: 'God is witness between me and you, and He has inspired to me this Qur'an that I may warn you with it and whomever it reaches, that you bear witness that along with God are other gods!' Say: 'I do not bear witness!' Say: 'He is only One god, and I am innocent of what you set up!'” (The Message 6:19)

"And We have come to them with a Scripture which We have detailed with knowledge; a guide and a mercy to those who believe." (The Message 7:52)

"We have revealed to you the Scripture with truth that you may judge between the people by that which God has shown you, and do not be an advocate for the treacherous. " (The Message 4:105)

"And the Day We send to every nation a witness against them from themselves, and We have brought you as a witness against these. And We have sent down to you the Scripture as a clarification for all things, and a guide and mercy and good tidings to those who have surrendered." (The Message 16:89)

"And We have sent down to you the Scripture with truth, authenticating what is present of the Scripture and superseding it. So judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their desires from what has come to you of the truth. For each of you We have made laws, and a structure; and had God willed, He would have made you all one nation, but He tests you with what He has given you; so strive to do good. To God you will return all of you, and He will inform you regarding that in which you dispute." (The Message 5:48)

What about Obeying the Messenger?

The gravest crime the self-appointed scholars who claimed to be Muslim made was to give authority to the traditions (Sunna) and the books of Sayings (Hadith) ALONGSIDE the authority of God and His messenger. They believe that it was God who authorized such action by commanding the people to ‘obey God, and obey the messenger’…

"Whoever obeys the messenger has obeyed God; and whoever turns away, We have not sent you as a guardian over them." (The Message 4:80)

What is so sadly neglected is that the most critical aspects of the messenger’s life have been recorded and captured in the most detailed manner…not in the books of Hadith or tradition…but in the Holy Book itself. The questions that he was asked, and the answers (inspired by God) that he gave:

"They ask you about intoxicants and gambling. Say: 'In them is great harm, and a benefit for mankind; but their harm is greater than their benefit.' And they ask you how much are they to give, Say: 'The excess.' It is thus that God clarifies for you the revelations that you may think." (The Message 2:219)

"And they ask you concerning the Spirit. Say: 'The Spirit is from the command on my Lord, and the knowledge you were given was but very little.'" (The Message 17:85)

The list of questions and answers goes on throughout the Book of God…This is the life of the Messenger, and this is the ‘obedience’ of the messenger…Without ‘obeying the messenger’, we would inadvertently ignore nearly 1/3 of the Book of God which deals with his most authentic narrations authorized and inspired by God which we have been commanded to follow…

“Nor does he speak from personal desire. It is a divine inspiration." (The Message 53:3-4)

What is Difference between Islam and Today's PRACTICES?

In comparing the teachings of Islam as derived from the Book of God to the practices taught and enforced by the popular Sunni and Shia faiths (1.2 Bn followers), we find that the list is quite extensive, with some of the highlights as follows:

In Islam, the requirement to be a Muslim is to simply accept and live according to the ‘Straight Path’ (6:151-153), Vs. the Sunni or Shia 5-pillars which come from unauthorized books…

In Islam, abolishing Slavery is taught to be an act of righteousness (90:12-13), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings which encourages slavery under war…

In Islam, women are never forbidden from praying or fasting during Menstruation (2:222), nor is there a specific dress code (i.e. the Headscarf) imposed on them beyond modesty, Vs. the Sunni and Shia which teach the undermining of women and forcing them to cover their hair and avoid praying or fasting at certain times...

In Islam, a man or women may leave a Will, after settlement of debt (4:12), Vs. Sunnis who refuse to accept wills if there are any direct descendants...

In Islam, Monogamy is the basis for normal relationships, while polygamy is only allowed in cases involving marrying the mothers of orphans under the man’s guardianship (4:3), Vs. Sunnis where a man may be a polygamist simply if he can afford to, and Shia which allow sex for pleasure (Mut’a)...

In Islam, Divorce is enforceable only after a two-phase period, and it may be made nullified if the couple reconcile before the end of this period (65:1, 65:4), Vs. Sunni teachings that destroy families by allowing a divorce to occur on the spot with no waiting period and no nullification...

In Islam, Thieves do not have their hands cut-off, but are made to work until they return that which is stolen (12:76), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings which brutally amputate the hands causing disability...

In Islam, no one is allowed to be killed or Stoned for adultery (24:2), Vs. Sunni and Shia laws of stoning married adulterers to death...

In Islam, absolute Freedom of Faith is allowed (2:256, 10:99; 18:29; 88:21-22), Vs. Sunni and Shia requiring apostates to be killed and rejecting the practice of other faiths...

In Islam, people are acknowledged as being diverse and each is to be respected for his/her level of spiritual growth. A Submitter ‘Muslim’ must work to attain the status of Faithful ‘Mumin’ (49:14), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings that all followers of their religion must think, act, and even look the same (cult syndrome)...

In Islam, War can only be declared in cases of self-defence - no offensives (2:190), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings allowing raids and attacks on any people who are considered non-Muslim by their standards...

In Islam, Pilgrimage is a centre for gathering of nations and for all to witness the benefits of being together (22:27-28), Vs. Sunni and Shia bringing in polytheistic rituals and superstition (touching of black stone, circling 7 times, etc..)...

In Islam, a Year is a luni-solar count made of 365-days (17:12, 9:36), with all the seasons fitting-in-place Vs. Sunnis teaching it to be a lunar one based on 354 days which creates confusion of seasons and time…

In Islam, males and females are not required to be Circumcised (32:7), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings requiring all males to be circumcised and females in some cases...

In Islam, music, statues, gold and silk are all Lawful (7:32-33, 16:116), Vs. Sunni beliefs forbidding silk & gold for men, and forbidding music & statues for all...

In Islam, rule of Government is under the constitution of the Qur'an through consultation and free-speech (5:48, 42:38). Vs. Sunni teachings which allow the rise of dictators or monarchs, and Shia teachings which uphold self-appointed religious leaders based on genealogy.

Therefore, the clearest difference is that Islam is a monotheistic, clear, consistent, dynamic, progressive, balanced system...a system that eliminates conjectures, hearsay, fairy tales and contradictions...therefore it eliminates hardship, confusion, chaos, and division. It is a system which puts more accent on the usage of intellect, reason, pondering over God, His Creation, meaning of life, pondering over everything...While the sects represent superstition, unfair treatment for non-cult members, inequality of the sexes, oppression of human rights, inability to contribute to human progress, amputations or physical violence, regression of ideas and thoughts to primitive levels of barbarism, and most importantly setting-up partners with the One True God and thus promoting polytheism.

God Alone

For the Sunnis and Shia who are shocked by the words they have been reading, we invite you to seek God Alone with your heart and your mind and to give-up all the previous wasted years of idolatry and polytheism that you have unknowingly been party to...For our Lord tells us that it is never too late to seek His forgiveness:

"Say: 'O My servants who transgressed against themselves, do not despair of God's mercy. For God forgives all sins. He is the Forgiver, the Merciful.'" (The Message 39:53)

But be warned, while only God knows the fate of an individual, by simply turning away without verifying what has been said here can bring the gravest of consequences:

"And who is more wicked than one who is reminded of his Lord’s verses but he turned away from them, and he forgot what his hands had done. We have made veils upon their hearts from understanding them, and a deafness in their ears. And if you invite them to the guidance, they will never be guided." (The Message 18:57)

Now ask yourself: Will God Alone be enough for you?

"And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!" (The Message 39:45)

Why is Islam for me?

This is what it all boils down to, a "what's in it for me" outlook that is very human and very natural...Well, the answers that may sway you to 'God Alone' and let you abandon your current faith, whatever the costs may be, are as follows...

"And if the town’s people had only believed and been aware, then We would have opened for them blessings from the sky and the land; but they denied, so We took them for what they used to earn." (The Message 7:96)

Islam guarantees victory (30:47, 22:38-39, 47-7).

Islam guarantees prosperity and abundance (7:96, 41:30-31).

Islam guarantees maximum freedom for the people - freedom of religion, freedom of expression, freedom to travel, and freedom of economy (2:256, 10:99, 88:21-22).

Islam guarantees human rights for all the people, regardless of their race, color, creed, social status, financial situation, or political affiliation (5:8, 49:13).

Islam guarantees a political system that is based on consultation and the freedom for open expression (42:38).

Islam guarantees a society that upholds and maintains the highest standards of moral behavior.

Islam guarantees a maximum regard for people's lives and properties.

Islam guarantees prevalence of love, courtesy, peace, and mutual respect among the people, and with other world communities (3:110, 60:8-9).

Islam guarantees environmental protection as a result of deterring pollution through conservation and prohibition of wasteful practices (30:41).

If you are convinced that a dignified, prosperous, righteous, logical, and practical way of life is your desire, then Islam is for you. You can begin to change your life immediately by putting-aside all that you have been raised to believe in and objectively taking a fresh-start by reading-up on the topics we discussed and many more in the words of God in His Book, and discover for yourself with no prejudice or interference.

"That is because God was not to change anything He bestowed to a people, unless they change what is in themselves. God is Hearer, Knowledgeable." (The Message 8:53)

"GOD ALONE"
SAY NO TO ANYTHING ELSE

Link:http://www.free-minds.org/

By quoting from the aforementioned website, my intent is simply to put forth an “Allah Only”, “Quraan Only” anti-sectarian, unifying view of Islam from practicing Muslims. As an anti-sectarian Muslim, I humbly suggest that we read and understand the Quraan as responsible Muslims, willfully submit ourselves to Allah at a deeply personal, meaning spiritual, intellectual and physical level, and utilize the guidance revealed in the Holy Quraan to attain personal and communal - not sectarian – happiness as Allah’s creations in this world and the next. Not surprisingly, my personal views of sectarianism and endless blame games are not at all positive based on my personal understanding of the Quraan. No offense is intended to those who are sectarian in their beliefs.

Such “Allah Only”, “Quraan Only” anti-sectarian, unifying view of Islam and various practices resulting from it are as old as The Holy Quraan itself. In my family, a traditionally “Shia” family with roots in Old Dhaka, my great-great grandfather came across such views during his pilgrimage to Mecca in the 1870s. Since then, being “Shia” has been a matter of cultural practices for our family in a traditionally tolerant, largely anti-sectarian “Sunni” Muslim community in Old Dhaka. The cultural practices revolve around the following tenets of "Shia" Islam: -

The Shia believe in the five pillars of Islam, as do Sunnis, but categorize them differently. Shia beliefs include the following:

I. Theology of Shia (Usūl al-Dīn)

1. Tawhīd (Oneness): The Oneness of God

2. Adalah (Justice): The Justice of God

3. Nubuwwah (Prophethood): God has appointed perfect and infallible prophets and messengers to teach mankind the religion (that is, a perfect system of how to live in "peace" ("submission to God"))

4. Imamah (Leadership): God has appointed specific leaders to lead and guide mankind — a prophet appoints a custodian of the religion before his demise

5. Qiyamah (The Day of Judgment): God will raise mankind for Judgment

II. Aspects of Religion (Furū al-Dīn)

1. Salat — called "Namaaz" in Persian — (Prayer) – Performing the five daily prayers (Prayers can be made up for at night)

2. Sawm — called "Roozeh" in Persian — (Fast) – fasting during the holy month of Ramadhan (Able to eat after the sun goes down)

3. Hajj (Pilgrimage) – performing the pilgrimage to Mecca (once in a lifetime)

4.Zakat (Poor-rate) – paying the poor-tax (2.5% of your wealth every year should go to the poor)

5. Khums (One-fifth of savings) – paying tax to the Imam (سهم امام)

6. Jihad (Struggle) – struggling to please the Almighty. The greater, or internal Jihad is the struggle against the evil within one's soul in every aspect of life. The lesser, or external, Jihad is the struggle against the evil of one's environment in every aspect of life. This is not to be mistaken with the common modern misconception that this means "Holy War". Writing the truth (jihad bil qalam) and speaking truth in front of an oppressor are also forms of Jihad.

7. Amr-Bil-Ma'rūf – commanding what is good

8. Nahi-Anil-Munkar – forbidding what is evil

9. Tawalla – loving the Ahlul Bayt and their followers

10. Tabarra – dissociating oneself from the enemies of the Ahlul Bayt

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shia
http://www.dmoz.org/Society/Religion_and_Spirituality/Islam/Shia/

Anybody familiar with the religious-cultural activities centered around Husseini Dalan in Old Dhaka can some shed light as to what they are and how they're related to the aforementioned fundamentals of the sect.

Based largely on anti-sectarian excerpts from the Holy Quraan, and a sermon from Ali Ibn Abi Talib's sermons quoted in Nahj al-Balagha, my forefathers understood the folly of all "my way or the highway" type of exclusivist, absolutist and divisive sectarianism, whatever form it takes within Islam.

Here are a couple of excerpts: -

The Qur'an, chapter 28 (Al-Qisas), verse 15: “ And he went into the city at a time of unvigilance on the part of its people, so he found therein two men fighting, one being of his party and the other of his foes, and he who was of his party cried out to him for help against him who was of his enemies, so Musa struck him with his fist and killed him. He said: This is on account of the Shaitan's doing; surely he is an enemy, openly leading astray"

Arabic: وَدَخَلَ الْمَدِينَةَ عَلَى حِينِ غَفْلَةٍ مِّنْ أَهْلِهَا فَوَجَدَ فِيهَا رَجُلَيْنِ يَقْتَتِلَانِ هَذَا مِن شِيعَتِهِ وَهَذَا مِنْ عَدُوِّهِ فَاسْتَغَاثَهُ الَّذِي مِن شِيعَتِهِ عَلَى الَّذِي مِنْ عَدُوِّهِ فَوَكَزَهُ مُوسَى فَقَضَى عَلَيْهِ قَالَ هَذَا مِنْ عَمَلِ الشَّيْطَانِ إِنَّهُ عَدُوٌّ مُّضِلٌّ مُّبِينٌ

The Qur'an, chapter 30 (Ar-Rum), verse 31 to 32: “ Turning to Him, and be careful of (your duty to) Him and keep up prayer and be not of the polytheists. Of those who divided their religion and became seas every sect rejoicing in what they had with them."

Arabic: مُنِيبِينَ إِلَيْهِ وَاتَّقُوهُ وَأَقِيمُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَلَا تَكُونُوا مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ مِنَ الَّذِينَ فَرَّقُوا دِينَهُمْ وَكَانُوا شِيَعاً كُلُّ حِزْبٍ بِمَا لَدَيْهِمْ فَرِحُونَ


Imam Ali said: -

“ You should know that you have again reverted to the position of the [pagan] Bedouin Arabs after immigration to Islam, and have become different sects (Shia's) after having been once united. You do not possess anything of Islam except its name, and know nothing of belief save its show. You would throw down Islam on its face in order to defame its honor and break its pledge for brotherhood which Allah gave you as a sacred trust on His earth and a source of peace among the people. Be sure that if you incline towards anything other than Islam. the unbelievers will fight you. Then there will be neither Gabriel nor Michael, neither Muhajirun nor Ansar to help you, but only the clashing of swords, till Allah settles the matter for you…You have broken the shackles of Islam, have transgressed its limits, and have destroyed its commands! ”

Intermarriages with Sunnis in my family have been commonplace since that memorable pilgrimage to the Holy City, and each person in my family is free to worship as they feel, think and see fit. One of my uncles, born and raised in New Zealand of all places, participated in the Islamic Revolution in Iran upon his graduation from Al Azhar, and is an “orthodox Shia” so to speak. His Egyptian wife is a traditional “Sunni” Muslim sympathetic to but not a member of Hizbut Tahrir. By the infinite grace of Allah they have a genuinely happy marriage as they have managed to find a common ground in the Holy Quraan, the Hadith, mutual good faith and love. Their children and grandchildren are systematically exposed to the Holy Quraan, the particular Shia and Sunni ways of practicing Islam, and are free to choose their way of worship as they wish, or not to worship at all. Only Allah knows what is truly in the hearts and minds of His creations and only He can accord the inevitable judgments that await us all. Such unions, though discouraged by the sectarian leadership, are not uncommon in the scholarly culture Al Azhar and other Muslim Communities other than sectarian orthodoxies the Gulf, parts of rural Iran, Southern Central Asia, most South Asian except notably Bangladesh, and Southeast Asian except Thailand and parts of Indonesia.

My late grandfather and father considered any such labels to be divisive, sectarian and ultimately blasphemous, and based their ways of worship solely on the divine authority and guidance of the Holy Quraan, and the interpretations, insights and opinions of Muslim scholars throughout the ages. Islam for them was also an “intellectual” deen (Way) and they were naturally erudite in their own thoughts with regards to those the interpretations, insights and opinions – as the single most necessary component of that “intellectual” deen besides holistic Allah-consciousness. They saw such commitment as a responsibility as thinking Muslims for whom Islam is more than the comforting but divisive conformity in the cultural practices one is simply born into.

They and many others since the revelation of the Holy Quraan clearly understood the role Muslim scholars and luminaries must play as Muslims without appointing themselves de facto priests and intermediaries between Allah and man’s salvation, despite semantic claims to the contrary. The Holy Quraan itself warns of this phenomenon that can lead people astray by creating divisions with the “my way or the highway” approach, and assigning de facto partnerships to that salvation in a manner akin to the Catholic Church. In an age where both literacy, access to information and more detailed, context and semiotics-based translations and transliterations of Quraanic Arabic are becoming more and more commonplace, the roles of scholars in Islam - already limited because of Islam’s prohibition of priesthood – must evolve accordingly in order to accommodate these Information Age realities very different from perhaps any other age in human history. On the other hand, those scholars intentionally and inadvertently benefiting from divisions, exclusions, seem ultimately interested in nothing other than the conviction of their vanity.

It is up to each individual Muslim to choose - according to all of their circumstances in this world and subsequent the intellectual and spiritual limitations they have placed upon themselves with regards to their individual abilities as ordained by Allah – what sort of role what kind of scholar is to play in his or her life and to what end as an individual Muslim living this life as an integral part of his/her community and the world.

My younger brother and I subscribe to the way of our forefathers not because we have had the benefit of being born into it, but because that is where we find ourselves as individuals in this existential journey. We read, get inspired by, think about and internalize the guidance revealed Quraan as a we pray, we fast, we serve our communities, we meet our financial, ethical and moral obligations, we endeavor to refrain from unkind acts to ourselves - meaning the indivisible unity of our spirit, intellect and body - and everyone and everything in the world around us, and we humbly struggle for justice as the extension of cultivating and nurturing that kindness.

For me personally as an anti-sectarian Muslim, the defining principle of being one is love of Allah, and the manifestation of that love through the diligent cultivation of kindness, and social justice as an extension of that kindness. Kindness starts with oneself by taking care of the self and discarding the ego by willfully submitting to Allah, by taking care of one’s family and community, and by understanding that Allah is the ONLY omniscient and omnipotent judge of all things, and nobody will escape HIS judgment in this world or the moment of our death.

Islam as per the Holy Quraan is also an "intellectual" Deen (Way) without priesthood - de facto or any other kind intermediary between Allah and man's existential and other salvation - and every individual Muslim has the responsibility to exercise his or her Allah given faculties, nurture and enhance those faculties through discipline and scholarship, and apply the guidance of the divine revelation of the Holy Quraan in everyday life wholeheartedly and holistically.

The concept of “authorization” of books other than the Quraan with regards to the Messenger (PBUH) and other concerns are addressed with Quraanic references in the easy to explore website and my quotation from the website. I personally find equating, for all practical purposes, the reverence for a revealed text to man made text, and empowering scholars restricted in their role according to the revelation, to the point of becoming intermediaries between Allah and our salvation, nothing less than heartbreaking and tragic. No intentional or inadvertently semantic twists or doublespeak can mitigate the actual power relations at play there. Some of those power relations become dangerous once they seek to impose knowledge masquerading as debate with its own set of absolutist dogmas and rules of men, and exercise power without the possibility of role reversal and playing GOD in their judgments. Divisions with easy answers in a world where other men do the thinking for us, ultimately benefit those who profit from such divisions as a source of socio-political power. There is great indignity in speaking for others in a universe created by the only omniscient and omnipotent Creator who has created it in ways we’re just beginning to understand as modern scientific knowledge since Einstein, Bohr, Heisenberg, Chaos Theory, the Human Genome Project, and incredible advances since in physics, chemistry, biology and mathematics.

The Quraan was revealed for the benefit of all of mankind, not as a “rocket science” to an elite few to interpret and try to impose its meaning upon others by intentionally and inadvertently taking advantage of our needs and senses of inadequacy, submission and wonder. We are all born with natural, Allah-given abilities that may be nurtured and enhanced through scholarly and other endeavors, but those value additions in no way allow for a de facto priesthood for us to sheepishly follow by assigning such prohibitive and from my daily readings of the Holy Quraan - prohibited partnerships.

Scholars, according the Quraan, have a very limited role to play in our lives as weathermen out to tell everyone which way the wind blows. Sadly all too often we accord them the power to do the thinking for us, and take the easy way of the sheep. Another story, but as good-hearted, intelligent and literate Muslims in the Information Age of the 21st century, our individual application of Islam in spirit, mind and body as inseparable components of individual existence in this life is imperative as a way to be happy in this world, as a part of this world, and in the world to come.

Peace, Sohel

(also posted in another thread)

Tigers_eye
October 2, 2007, 03:59 PM
Hello BanCricFan,
I would like to start with saying Allah knows best. Anything wrong that I type is my shortcoming. May the Almighty forgive me for that (if I do).

I get what you are trying to say by "Allah commands us in the Qur'an, "Ask the people of knowledge (remembrance) if you dont know"." This does not mean one has to follow a madhab to gain knowledge. From sincere intention and hard work one can get the knowledge from Allah Subhanawa tala because he is the only one who gives the knowledge to whom ever he pleases. We are talking about real knowledge (how to become righteous) here not physics, math, computer science or biology. Certainly Allah Subhanawatala only prescribed one path to Muhammad (peace be upon him). So how come we are standing at a crossroad of four madhab and counting? Any sort of division in Islam is unwanted, does not matter even if they are tollerant among each other. May be the next generation will not be.

I also understand all the Imam's you have mentioned and the reasoning. Certainly they were among the knowledgable ones. However, I can garantee their work is not preserved as the holy Quran. Their deeds can not save me from the hell-fire either and their teachings may be reformed (I guess that is why we are having several madhabs) by now who knows how many times by others (followers).

It is the mercy of Allah which would be the only thing that can save me. I ask a question: Which madhab did Abu bakr, Omar, Usman, Ali (may be peace be upon all of them) used. I would like to follow their Madhab which was the similar and only madhab of the Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) who was like a walking Quran.

So one can see, all the time, we go back to where we have a direct link to the Almighty. That is the Quran where the Almighty speaks directly to us.

May be to you Madhab is the way to heaven. But from my understanding I don't need any Imam, priest to reach to my creator. We have seen other religion where priest hood gets in the way when they try to contact the creator of every thing.

Sohel bhai,
I didn't read the whole thing as of yet. But the part I read may be helpful for many BC members to understand what is meant by the straight path in the Holy Quran.

Nocturnal
October 2, 2007, 04:44 PM
[বাংলা]ধন্যবাদ সবাইকে, আলোচনা ভাল হইতেসে।[/বাংলা]

BanCricFan
October 2, 2007, 06:23 PM
Dear Tigers_eye,

I think I've tried to convey the true spirit of Madhab to you to the best of my ability. I can only hope and urge that you will consider it sincerely.

I just wonder if you have read the article on "understanding the four madhabs"? From your reply I gather probably you have not. In that case, I urge you to read again. It will make any future dialogue much more productive as we will have some common understandings.

I do understand that you're trying to worship Allah subhana wa ta'ala ALONE without having any recourse to intermediaries. You should be applauded for that. But I put it to you- don't you think all those luminaries, the mountains of Islamic intelectual and spiritual legacy, the Aimmah (Imams/absolute mujtahids) I have mentioned in my last post had the same desire as you that they should worship Allah alone?? Perhaps, they didn't have as much Taqwa, wara'a, knowledge, wisdom, vision and sincerity as our blessed generation?

The mechanism of Madhab was in operation during the time of the blessed Sahabah (Allah be pleased with them) without it having a name. Just like the science of Tajweed wasn't known by its name during that blessed era. Are we to say that the Sahabah ikraam didn't know Tajweed? Of course, NOT! The same goes for the Arabic grammer. These sciences were formulated much later in a cohesive system (as we know them now). This is what Shaykh Abdal Hakim Murad has expounded:

"Given the depth of scholarship needed to understand the revealed texts accurately, and the extreme warnings we have been given against distorting the Revelation, it is obvious that ordinary Muslims are duty bound to follow expert opinion, rather than rely on their own reasoning and limited knowledge. This obvious duty was well-known to the early Muslims: the Caliph Umar (r.a.) followed certain rulings of Abu Bakr (r.a.), saying I would be ashamed before God to differ from the view of Abu Bakr. And Ibn Masud (r.a.), in turn, despite being a mujtahid in the fullest sense, used in certain issues to follow Umar (r.a.). According to al-Shabi: Six of the Companions of the Prophet (pbuh) used to give fatwas to the people: Ibn Masud, Umar ibn al-Khattab, Ali, Zayd ibn Thabit, Ubayy ibn Kab, and Abu Musa (al-Ashari). And out of these, three would abandon their own judgements in favour of the judgements of three others: Abdallah (ibn Masud) would abandon his own judgement for the judgement of Umar, Abu Musa would abandon his own judgement for the judgement of Ali, and Zayd would abandon his own judgement for the judgement of Ubayy ibn Kab."

The people of knowledge (ulama of the highest calibre) has been described in the Holy Qur'an -amongst others- as "ulul albab"(deeply rooted in knowledge), "most God fearing" and "umara'"(leaders). There are numerous verses in the Quran which outline the importance of following and obeying scholars and the rulers put over us. I'll just quote one verse here,- " O those who believe! obey Allah, obey the Messenger and 'ulil amr' from you". The scholars of Tafsir have described "ulil amr" as leaders and scholars(ulama/Imams).

My dear brother in Islam, I'm not trying to convert you to my way of thinking, rather, desire the best for you! ...Madhab will not take us to Jannah but its an awesome tool for us to use in understanding and practising our Deen correctly. Which in turn may lead me and you to The Garden, insha-allah!

I'll wrap this up by quoting two paras from Shaykh Abdal Hakim Murad:

"We might compare the Quranic verses and the hadiths to the stars. With the naked eye, we are unable to see many of them clearly; so we need a telescope. If we are foolish, or proud, we may try to build one ourselves. If we are sensible and modest, however, we will be happy to use one built for us by Imam al-Shafi'i or Ibn Hanbal, and refined, polished and improved by generations of great astronomers. A madhhab is, after all, nothing more than a piece of precision equipment enabling us to see Islam with the maximum clarity possible. If we use our own devices, our amateurish attempts will inevitably distort our vision."

"The edifice has stood for centuries, withstanding the most bitter blows of its enemies. Only from within can it be weakened. No doubt, Islam has its intelligent foes among whom this fact is well-known. The spectacle of the disunity and fitnas which divided the early Muslims despite their superior piety, and the solidity and cohesiveness of Sunnism after the final codification of the Shariah in the four Schools of the great Imams, must have put ideas into many a malevolent head. This is not to suggest in any way that those who attack the great madhhabs are the conscious tools of Islams enemies. But it may go some way to explaining why they will continue to be well-publicised and well-funded, while the orthodox alternative is starved of resources. With every Muslim now a proud mujtahid, and with taqlid dismissed as a sin rather than a humble and necessary virtue, the divergent views which caused such pain in our early history will surely break surface again. Instead of four madhhabs in harmony, we will have a billion madhhabs in bitter and self-righteous conflict. No more brilliant scheme for the destruction of Islam could ever have been devised."

Wa Allahu A'lam!

BanCricFan
October 2, 2007, 06:59 PM
Dear Sohel NR bhai,

You CANNOT have "God alone" without the Prophet, hence, the testimony of faith- "There is no diety except Allah and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah". Can one be a Muslim just by testifying the first part of the Shahadah? NO- thats the verdict of scholars of Islam- both Sunni and Shi'ah. There is a Ijma' on this matter.

I can only say you're treading a very slippery slope here and you should stop right there! What you're propagating here is outright dangerous, to say the least. I suggest you consider your stance carefully.

Peace!

Sohel
October 2, 2007, 08:07 PM
Dear Sohel NR bhai,

You CANNOT have "God alone" without the Prophet, hence, the testimony of faith- "There is no diety except Allah and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah". Can one be a Muslim just by testifying the first part of the Shahadah? NO- thats the verdict of scholars of Islam- both Sunni and Shi'ah. There is a Ijma' on this matter.

I can only say you're treading a very slippery slope here and you should stop right there! What you're propagating here is outright dangerous, to say the least. I suggest you consider your stance carefully.

Peace!

A serious threat.

I don’t respond to threats very well, no matter how well or ill disguised they may be across cyber or any other space. However, I shall try. So here it goes: -

1. Your misunderstanding of my intent, in light of everything in my post, clear things that can be explored without preconceived bias, is deliberate and malicious. I am disappointed but not really surprised at this point.

2. Provoking whatever that you’re trying to provoke by attempting to put words in my mouth is an old trick. A trick that by the infinite grace of Allah, does not work with me too often.

3. What in those posts threatens so much to threaten someone like me who advocates the Quraan and everything in it including the Shahadah?

4. My conscience is clear and I am ready to face Allah’s judgment anytime He wills, so in the final analysis, fear and paranoia-driven crypto-fascistic threats do not scare me. Give it your best shot my brother, I will pray for peace in your heart when all is said and done.

5. I am reporting your threatening post based on deliberate and malicious misunderstanding to the MODs.

I have nothing further to say to you.

Nasif
October 2, 2007, 08:54 PM
Dear Sohel NR bhai,

You CANNOT have "God alone" without the Prophet, hence, the testimony of faith- "There is no diety except Allah and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah". Can one be a Muslim just by testifying the first part of the Shahadah? NO- thats the verdict of scholars of Islam- both Sunni and Shi'ah. There is a Ijma' on this matter.

I can only say you're treading a very slippery slope here and you should stop right there! What you're propagating here is outright dangerous, to say the least. I suggest you consider your stance carefully.

Peace!

Do not haste to judge others. It is not our duty to judge rather spread the knowledge. If you have something knowledgeable to say, then just say it don't judge. Everyone has right to their own belief. If you do not agree, then just say "peace". This is the way God orders you to react if you are truthfully proclaiming His orders.

I will not elaborate too much on this issue, as it is quite sensitive in nature; and without previous Quranic study, one can easily start fierce argument. Only thing I will quote is one simple verse from Quran:

Sura: Al-Imran (3) Verse 18
http://yaqb.org/images/alazhr.org/3_018.gif

Transliteration:
Shahida Allahu annahu la ilaha illa huwa waalmala-ikatu waoloo alAAilmi qa-iman bialqisti la ilaha illa huwa alAAazeezu alhakeemu

Literal:
God witnessed that He, (there is) no God except He, and the angels and those of the knowledge (He is) keeping up/taking care of with the just/equitable, no God except He, the glorious , the wise/judicious . (God and the angels and those of the knowledge witnessed/testified that there is no God except God alone.)

Translation:
GOD bears witness that there is no god except He, and so do the angels and those who possess knowledge. Truthfully and equitably, He is the absolute god; there is no god but He, the Almighty, Most Wise.

This is the Quaranic oath for a muslim. Please carefully note how God categorizes the groups who know this truth. Only two groups, angles and among humans the knowledgeable ones. God didin't mention muslims, neither did he mention mumin, nor did he mention the righteous. Decide for yourself if you are in the category who recognizes the truth.

I don't have to go to any tafsir, explanations, mullha, ijma, fiqah or anything. Anyone can understand the meaning. If we are knowledgeable, we will accept this truth and not try to change or add to it. This is the correct shahadah as proclaimed by God. No one has authority to change it. There is no god but The God.

In the very next verse God orders us to surrender to this and become a muslim!3:19 - That truly the religion at God, (is) the Islam/submission/surrender

Nasif
October 2, 2007, 08:56 PM
By the way, please keep the discussion without pointing fingers at individuals. Otherwise we will have to close the thread. Many a topic has been discussed before on the line of religion and they were forcefully closed. As religious thread seems to degenerate very quickly. If this goes along the same line; we won't have any choice but to close it. Discussion should be about the topic, not about the person.

BanCricFan
October 3, 2007, 03:26 AM
I wrote:
"Dear Sohel NR bhai,

....I can only say you're treading a very slippery slope here and you should stop right there! What you're propagating here is outright dangerous, to say the least. I suggest you consider your stance carefully.

Peace!"<!-- / message -->
<!-- controls -->http://www.banglacricket.com/alochona/images/BanglaCricket/misc/progress.gif
A serious threat.

I don’t respond to threats very well, no matter how well or ill disguised they may be across cyber or any other space. However, I shall try. So here it goes: -

1. Your misunderstanding of my intent, in light of everything in my post, clear things that can be explored without preconceived bias, is deliberate and malicious. I am disappointed but not really surprised at this point.

4. My conscience is clear and I am ready to face Allah’s judgment anytime He wills, so in the final analysis, fear and paranoia-driven crypto-fascistic threats do not scare me.

5. I am reporting your threatening post based on deliberate and malicious misunderstanding to the MODs.

I have nothing further to say to you.

Sohel NR,

Where do you see a (ill-disguised) threat in my post to "label" me with all those defamable adjectives. My post was a sincere- stern maybe- advice to a fellow muslim as this Deen is known as "Ad-deenun nasihah".

Your massive disproportionate reaction to my post [is unhelpful]. Do you have any reasons to be so [reactionary]?

My intention was to have a dialogue but ,obviously, there is no point in it now. I'll refute your initial -potentially blasphemous and deliberately misleading- post after Ramadan, insha-allah [].

Ma'a salamah!

BD-Shardul
October 3, 2007, 03:48 AM
Allah commands us in the Qur'an, "Ask the people of knowledge (remembrance) if you dont know".

Obviously, if one knows then he or she isn't obliged to follow a Madhab. Let me put this in perspective- Imam Al-Ghazzali, Imam Muhammad As-Shaibani, Imam An-Nabawi, Imam Ibn- Hajar Al-Asqalani, Imam Ibn-Rushd, Shaykh Ibn-Al-Arabi, Imam Al-Bukhari, Imam Muslim An-Nisapuri, Imam At-Tirmidhi, Ibn Khaldun, Imam Ibn At-Taymiyyah et el followed a madhab, although, they all were "mujtahid mutlaq" (absolute scholars) by their own right. The prerequisites of "Ijtihad" (independent reasoning) are explained below by Shaykh Abdal Hakim Murad who is a professor of theology at Cambridge University:


In order to protect the Shariah from the danger of innovation and distortion, the great scholars of usul (foundation of Islamic sciences)* laid down rigorous conditions which must be fulfilled by anyone wishing to claim the right of ijtihad for himself. These conditions include: (a) mastery of the Arabic language, to minimise the possibility of misinterpreting Revelation on purely linguistic grounds;
(b) a profound knowledge of the Quran and Sunnah and the circumstances surrounding the revelation of each verse and hadith, together with a full knowledge of the Quranic and hadith commentaries, and a control of all the interpretative techniques discussed above;
(c) knowledge of the specialised disciplines of hadith, such as the assessment of narrators and of the matn [text];
(d) knowledge of the views of the Companions, Followers and the great imams, and of the positions and reasoning expounded in the textbooks of fiqh, combined with the knowledge of cases where a consensus (ijma) has been reached;
(e) knowledge of the science of juridical analogy (qiyas), its types and conditions;
(f) knowledge of ones own society and of public interest (maslahah);
(g) knowing the general objectives (maqasid) of the Shariah; (h) a high degree of intelligence and personal piety, combined with the Islamic virtues of compassion, courtesy, and modesty.


http://members.cox.net/arshad/newmadhh.htm

Many many thanks BanCricFan Bhai. You have done my job. :bighug::up:

BanCricFan
October 3, 2007, 03:52 AM
Sura: Al-Imran (3) Verse 18
http://yaqb.org/images/alazhr.org/3_018.gif

Transliteration:
Shahida Allahu annahu la ilaha illa huwa waalmala-ikatu waoloo alAAilmi qa-iman bialqisti la ilaha illa huwa alAAazeezu alhakeemu

Literal:
God witnessed that He, (there is) no God except He, and the angels and those of the knowledge (He is) keeping up/taking care of with the just/equitable, no God except He, the glorious , the wise/judicious . (God and the angels and those of the knowledge witnessed/testified that there is no God except God alone.)

Translation:
GOD bears witness that there is no god except He, and so do the angels and those who possess knowledge. Truthfully and equitably, He is the absolute god; there is no god but He, the Almighty, Most Wise.

This is the Quaranic oath for a muslim. Please carefully note how God categorizes the groups who know this truth. Only two groups, angles and among humans the knowledgeable ones. God didin't mention muslims, neither did he mention mumin, nor did he mention the righteous. Decide for yourself if you are in the category who recognizes the truth.


Jazakumullahu khairan jaza, Nasif bhai! I hope people will pay heed to what you've outlined here so succinctly!

No, my intention isn't to be hasty in pronouncing judgements on others. I'm perfectly aware that I'm not a mufti and its not my job. This is one of the first lessons we are taught in Usul-al-fiqh. I'm also mindful of the holy verse, "And you shall not be questioned about the action of the others (what they used to do)"

Thanks for the reminder, though!

BanCricFan
October 3, 2007, 03:58 AM
Many many thanks BanCricFan Bhai. You have done my job. :bighug::up:

You're most welcome, bro! Hugs, all around!:big_hug:

BanCricFan
October 3, 2007, 07:25 AM
Sura: Al-Imran (3) Verse 18
http://yaqb.org/images/alazhr.org/3_018.gif

Transliteration:
Shahida Allahu annahu la ilaha illa huwa waalmala-ikatu waoloo alAAilmi qa-iman bialqisti la ilaha illa huwa alAAazeezu alhakeemu


Translation:
GOD bears witness that there is no god except He, and so do the angels and those who possess knowledge. Truthfully and equitably, He is the absolute god; there is no god but He, the Almighty, Most Wise.



Which website are you using for the Quranic referrences?

Kabir
October 3, 2007, 08:16 AM
You're most welcome, bro! Hugs, all around!:big_hug:

Amgo re baad diya apnara hug-a hug-i kortasen? Khub kharap, khub kharap.

Nasif
October 3, 2007, 01:24 PM
Which website are you using for the Quranic referrences?

This is from http://yaqb.org (yet another Quran browser).

cluster11
October 3, 2007, 04:42 PM
This is a good discussion. I'm no expert in Islam but have a historical interest in all things religion. One thing I didn't understand is why one poster tried to emphasize strict adherence to this "madhab" when he himself mentioned that it is a tool to understand and follow Islam, not a requirement itself. Trying to promote this among other muslims as a great tool to practice the religion is understandable. Trying to label others as part of one madhab or the other or emphasizing that they must do so because they are too naive to follow the religion seems naive in itself. But then again, I've seen so many "born again Christian" examples of hypocracy in U.S. it won't surprise me if this type of movement wins a lot of followers. Whether that scores plus points for such muslims on the judgement day remains debatable.

Sohel
October 3, 2007, 09:31 PM
Being accused of "blasphemy" for propagating the Holy Quraan and ONLY the Holy Quraan from those who set up scholars and imams as de facto partners with Allah - scholars and imams who took it upon themselves to give authority to the Sunnah and the Hadith ALONGSIDE the authority of Allah and His Messenger as revealed and FULLY CONTAINED in the Holy Quraan is hardly surprising at all.

"...We have revealed to you this book to provide explanations for everything, and guidance, and mercy, and good news for the submitters/muslims." (16:89)

"Shall I seek other than GOD as a judge, when He revealed THIS BOOK FULLY DETAILED? (6:114)

"The word of your Lord is COMPLETE in truth & justice." (6:115)

"Say (O Muhammad), 'Whose testimony is greater?' Say, 'God is the witness between me and you that THIS QURAN was given to me to preach it to you, and to whomever it reaches.' However, you certainly bear witness that you set up other gods beside. Say, 'I will never do what you are doing; I disown your idol-worship.'" (6:19)

"When our verses are recited for them, those who do not expect to meet us would say, 'Bring a Quraan other than this, or change it.' Say (O Muhammad), 'I cannot change it on my own initiative. I simply follow what is revealed to me. I fear, if I disobey my Lord, the retribution of a terrible day.' ...Who is more wicked than one who invents lies about God, or rejects His revelations? The guilty never succeed. Yet, they idolize beside God those who possess no power to harm them or benefit them, and say, 'These are our intercessors with God.' ...such is idol-worship." (10:15-18)

"The followers will say to their leaders, "It was you who schemed night and day, then commanded us to be unappreciative of GOD, and to set up partners to rank with Him." They will be ridden with remorse, when they see the retribution, for we will place shackles around the necks of those who disbelieved. Are they not justly requited for what they did?" (34:33)

"Why do they not study the Quraan? Or are their locks on their hearts?" (47:24)

"When they are told, "Follow what GOD has revealed herein," they say, "We follow only what we found our parents doing." What if their parents did not understand, and were not guided?. The example of those who reject is that of one who repeats what he hears of sounds and calls, without understanding. Deaf, dumb, and blind; they cannot understand." (2:170-171)

"And who is more wicked than one who is reminded of his Lord’s verses but he turned away from them, and he forgot what his hands had done. We have made veils upon their hearts from understanding them, and a deafness in their ears. And if you invite them to the guidance, they will never be guided." (The Message 18:57)

A gentle reminder …

"Say, 'To God belongs ALL INTERCESSION. To Him belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth, then to Him you will be returned.' When GOD ALONE is advocated, the hearts of those who do not believe in the hereafter shrink with aversion. But when idols are mentioned along with Him, they become satisfied." (39:45)

"Spend from our provisions to you before a day comes wherein there will be no trade, no nepotism, and NO INTERCESSION." (2:254)

"Beware of the day when no soul will help another soul, no ransom will be accepted, NO INTERCESSION will be useful, and no one will be helped."
(2/123)

We are responsible for our own actions …

"That is because God was not to change anything He bestowed to a people, unless they change what is in themselves. God is Hearer, Knowledgeable." (The Message 8:53)

Sohel
October 4, 2007, 03:54 AM
For those not duly familiar with Quraanic Arabic, here are a couple of links to the Holy Quraan translated in easy to understand English. Any useful, linguistic, semiotic or otherwise erudite critique is most welcome.

http://www.geocities.com/masad02/

http://www.free-minds.org/quran/

A gentle reminder: purely dogmatic jingoism masquerading as "debate" or "dispute" without proper erudition only leads to further embarrassment of all involved. It is sad to try and "refute" what one hasn't examined in detail or in good faith without angry and bitter preconceptions ... :)

Moshin
October 6, 2007, 07:48 AM
If you see how people pray in Saudi Arabia, they raise thier hands before bowing down, and they move thier finger, when reading attahi..., these people follow the Islamic law of Salafism, this new law says they are following the teachings of the Sunnah when Islam was created, it was created by students in Egypt, where they have discovered the true ways of prayer and religion (Wikipedia, Salafism), but if you look at how people read in the sub-continent, we have knowledge from our ancestors who are derived from the time when Islam was in Bangladesh, like the Delhi arrivers and Hazrat Shah Jalal, who is from Yemen, born from a Turkish background, it is basically logical for us to learn how the Saudi's read, because this is the birth place of Islam, and where sources are very true, but all across the sub-continent how can the teachings be true, we have to justify our knowledge of Islam, and think are we following the right meaning. But for some reason I do not want to follow this passage, for some reason I dont know?

Moshin
December 21, 2007, 01:48 PM
So in conclusion we have decided that the true school of taught is....???

Fazal
December 21, 2007, 02:07 PM
So in conclusion we have decided that the true school of taught is....???

... by our Parar Moulovi Shaheb.

Moshin
December 21, 2007, 02:09 PM
... by our Parar Moulovi Shaheb.
now who is it that:-/

Fazal
December 21, 2007, 02:18 PM
now who is it that:-/

I forgot his name. But he is the hujur shaheb who used to live in ex superstar Shabana's house and teach arabic/quaran to the kids in the neighborhood. But most of the time he used to snore as we studied.

Moshin
December 21, 2007, 03:02 PM
I forgot his name. But he is the hujur shaheb who used to live in ex superstar Shabana's house and teach arabic/quaran to the kids in the neighborhood. But most of the time he used to snore as we studied.
So what has he taught you guys about the school of taught (which one?)

DJ Sahastra
December 21, 2007, 03:03 PM
Speaking only as me and without a context of any particular religion, i believe that variance and variation in religious practices within the adherent of the same religion is a not necessarily a bad thing as long as it doesn't corrupt the very essence or the core values of that religion.

Variations often lead to diverse practices and often helps absorb/accomodate local customs and traditions versus an absolute practice which calls for wiping out all signs of anything that doesn't adhere to a prescribed set of practices - and in the essence aims to homogenise.

To an extent, difference in interpretaions are a good thing because when they are not creating chaos, they are tool for healthy dialogues and also encourage tolerance to a different view.

Moshin
December 21, 2007, 03:10 PM
Speaking only as me and without a context of any particular religion, i believe that variance and variation in religious practices within the adherent of the same religion is a not necessarily a bad thing as long as it doesn't corrupt the very essence or the core values of that religion.

Variations often lead to diverse practices and often helps absorb/accomodate local customs and traditions versus an absolute practice which calls for wiping out all signs of anything that doesn't adhere to a prescribed set of practices - and in the essence aims to homogenise.

To an extent, difference in interpretaions are a good thing because when they are not creating chaos, they are tool for healthy dialogues and also encourage tolerance to a different view.
There's not many conflicts between different muslim schools around the world,
mainly there are conflicts between the sunni's and the shia's only, but not with
the school of taught, so yeah it does make practice in religion much more easier
to follow, but there are over 4 of them in the sunni factor (mentioning the sunni factor, because of majority) and people sometimes get really confused which is the right one, some of them step away from the Sunnah, with different rules and regulations applying when practicing with such a school, that is why people get really confused on which is the right one, im confused on which school i must or should follow at the moment, because of the number of schools??? (currently hanafi)

Fazal
December 21, 2007, 03:14 PM
So what has he taught you guys about the school of taught (which one?)

We haven't gone that far... we were busy with much important stuff.. Therefore no controversy and no maramri... only mill mohabbat.... we (me and my brother) all learned together "alif ba ta sa" while our teacher could take much needed peaceful nap.

Moshin
December 21, 2007, 03:42 PM
We haven't gone that far... we were busy with much important stuff.. Therefore no controversy and no maramri... only mill mohabbat.... we (me and my brother) all learned together "alif ba ta sa" while our teacher could take much needed peaceful nap.
:lol::lol:, so you havnt learned anything have you:ticking:

Rifat
December 21, 2007, 09:40 PM
people may hate me for this, but i am officially declaring my faith :

i am a quran aloner! i denounce most of the ahadith!

i do not denounce mohammed was the messenger of GOD... but i feel that quran is the only source for practicing islam and finding GOD!

a bit too late but...

thank you Sohel NR for sharing free-minds.org with muslims here! the reason why i stopped going to that site/forum is because i am tired of people asking questions like:

how many times do we pray? and even after there is a good explanation people still ask the same questions after three/four months. some of their heated debates ends in a very simple pointless realization. i felt that i was wasting my time there, they are not giving me new information, just a reinterpretaition of what i already know. i didn't need that, i can just listen to thousand mullahs give fatwas except the difference is this time it is quran alone style. a different ramadhan and new laws just derived from the quran. there are some people there who are simply brilliant people, others let's just say go along with the crowd.

i stopped going to that site for being pressured by my family plus after i found bangla cricket i found that after Bangladesh beat India i have found a common interest to share with where i am from... an internet place full of Bangladeshis supporting our cricket team. that was my perfect chance to forget about my short career at free-minds.


plus i have found out that good deeds never go to waste and faith in Allah alone is probably my safest bet in this life.

Rifat
December 21, 2007, 09:44 PM
my last thing to say is that:

if you are female and wear hijab, do not wear it because it is style or your sister/parents made you wear it. you do prayer for Allah, noone else.

i have no problem with five time prayer, ramadhan etc.. as long as we know whom we are doing it for!

Dhurr
December 22, 2007, 12:32 AM
Qadiani website ar Shia website dekhi bhora.

Moshin
December 22, 2007, 05:44 AM
how can you not say that Prophet Muhammed (SAS) was the servant and
messenger of Allah, what are you anyway???

Rifat
December 22, 2007, 06:34 AM
Qadiani website ar Shia website dekhi bhora.

free-minds.org is neither of those!

Rifat
December 22, 2007, 06:38 AM
how can you not say that Prophet Muhammed (SAS) was the servant and
messenger of Allah, what are you anyway???

i do not and as a muslim should not deny that fact, since the quran clearly states that prophet mohammad(PBUH) was indeed a messanger. surah bakarah verse 144 confirms that and many more verses i cannot site due to my lazy intentions...


my problem is that why should the laws derived from hadith be superstrictly enforced? they were not written down until after 300 years anyways, while the quran was compiled and organized during the Prophet's lifetime!

Rifat
December 22, 2007, 06:47 AM
the reason why i joined free minds because i was a skeptic of some of the authenticity of hadith and some verses of the quran, alhamdulillah, after that i was a bit satisfied as i truly discovered that indeed mankind always errs... in just about everything!


i still need more thorough research to verify for myself that indeed the quran is from God, just some english scientific explanation isn't enough for me!!! until i can understand why certain verses are deeper than others and how the quran explicitly describess the inner nature of man. Inshallah i will take arabic courses offered at my university in two years to confirm what i read in english is true...

deep down i know the quran is from Allah, but i have no explicit proof to be satisfied, my faith is based on intuition alone,and i feel that alone is not enough!

BanCricFan
December 22, 2007, 11:10 AM
:lol::lol:, so you havnt learned anything have you:ticking:

Well, if you only knew the esoteric significance of alphabet 'Alif', you would have considered Fazal a very learned and enlightened being! Moreover, our much loved Fazal has studied 'Ba', 'Ta' and 'Sa'!!!

Fazal is a modest brother and he doesn't like to blow his own shehnai. :)

BanCricFan
December 22, 2007, 11:29 AM
...deep down i know the quran is from Allah, but i have no explicit proof to be satisfied, my faith is based on intuition alone,and i feel that alone is not enough!

I don't think there can be any explicit proof as 'faith' is not a tangible/demonstrable science. Although, pre-moderns had no problems finding 'proofs' of the existence of 'God' using speculative philosophy, logic and mathematics. If you want you can put Qur'an to many kind of tests; linguistic, historical, sociological (August Comte), theological, scientific, etc.

May Allah make your path of 'seeking' a smooth, rewarding and a fruitful one!

Moshin
December 22, 2007, 01:53 PM
Well, if you only knew the esoteric significance of alphabet 'Alif', you would have considered Fazal a very learned and enlightened being! Moreover, our much loved Fazal has studied 'Ba', 'Ta' and 'Sa'!!!

Fazal is a modest brother and he doesn't like to blow his own shehnai. :)
what a great achievement that is, learning the first words of the
alphabet of arabic, i dont think then he would know what muslim
school he follows does he? what a [...] shame that is[.]

DJ Sahastra
December 22, 2007, 02:28 PM
what a great achievement that is, learning the first words of the
alphabet of arabic, i dont think then he would know what muslim
school he follows does he? what a damn shame that is[.]

Mohsin Baba,

It is not for no reason that you are my favourite poster :).

Fazal Mamu,

You need to learn a lot. Period.

Parisa
December 22, 2007, 04:43 PM
Mohsin Baba,

It is not for no reason that you are my favourite poster :).

Fazal Mamu,

You need to learn a lot. Period.


ooooooo DJ sahastra + Moshin

Moshin
December 22, 2007, 04:45 PM
ooooooo DJ sahastra + Moshin
man Parisa you are so imature:smug:

Parisa
December 22, 2007, 04:46 PM
man Parisa you are so imature:smug:

oi i was just playin lol

Moshin
December 22, 2007, 04:49 PM
what made you say that i dont get it lol??

Parisa
December 22, 2007, 04:49 PM
lol dunno..it was just funny

Moshin
December 22, 2007, 04:53 PM
lol dunno..it was just funny
i know i just found it.... u know..a bit...what:o

Moshin
December 22, 2007, 06:03 PM
Mohsin Baba,

It is not for no reason that you are my favourite poster :).

Fazal Mamu,

You need to learn a lot. Period.
thanks anyway,
but can i just ask what is so good about my posts (they're crap)

Parisa
December 22, 2007, 06:04 PM
thanks anyway,
but can i just ask what is so good about my posts (they're crap)

i like most of ur posts too.....i think why its so eye catchin is that u have the natural ability to express urself and ur views in a comical way....

Moshin
December 22, 2007, 06:07 PM
i like most of ur posts too.....i think why its so eye catchin is that u have the natural ability to express urself and ur views in a comical way....
thanks man... i dont even realise it or give a damn on how i wright.

Parisa
December 22, 2007, 06:09 PM
thanks man... i dont even realise it or give a damn on how i wright.

thats what many people like i think....ur carefree.....relaxed....yet u know just how to express ur strong views....by the way i'm not a man!

Moshin
December 22, 2007, 06:13 PM
thats what many people like i think....ur carefree.....relaxed....yet u know just how to express ur strong views....by the way i'm not a man!
i know that man...but i just say that...i cant say i know that lady sowwii

Sauron
December 22, 2007, 09:22 PM
Mohsin_31, don't you have anything else left to make yourself the perfect muslim?

You do sound perfect, but just in case you have anything left to make yourself the great example of a perfect Muslim, I'd recommend that you concentrate on that instead of patronizing others. Also, when you do that, you can suggest the perfect school for everyone.


.

Rifat
December 23, 2007, 01:51 AM
I don't think there can be any explicit proof as 'faith' is not a tangible/demonstrable science. Although, pre-moderns had no problems finding 'proofs' of the existence of 'God' using speculative philosophy, logic and mathematics. If you want you can put Qur'an to many kind of tests; linguistic, historical, sociological (August Comte), theological, scientific, etc.

May Allah make your path of 'seeking' a smooth, rewarding and a fruitful one!

Assalamualikum,

your words of encouragement are greatly appreciated :)

Moshin
December 23, 2007, 05:19 AM
Mohsin_31, don't you have anything else left to make yourself the perfect muslim?

You do sound perfect, but just in case you have anything left to make yourself the great example of a perfect Muslim, I'd recommend that you concentrate on that instead of patronizing others. Also, when you do that, you can suggest the perfect school for everyone.
I started this thread, because im confused which is the right school of taught,
i never realised that within the last few years or so, and i was just wondering
was I following the right school or not. Im currently Hannafi, as most Bengali's
are brought up to learn that school, but my uncle rather follows a different one,
it's called Salafism, heard of it before?? Most of these people are more religious
than others, most or all of them keep thier beards, follow the Sunnah really
well, with strict rules regarding on religious matters. This is the official school of practice in Saudi Arabia, no other school can be taught to people, but can be practiced.

This group I found was the most religious people I can see in London, while others aren't really regarded as very religious. If we see a muslim, wearing a punjabi and who has a beard, then we're sure he's a salafi. And which is the right direction, staying quite religious (hanafi) or very religious (salafism).

Parisa
December 23, 2007, 09:43 AM
sauron's message was very sad.moshin's intention isn't to patronize people but to learn.but moshin to be honest with you too much muslim conversation can get a bit borin.

Moshin
December 23, 2007, 09:45 AM
sauron's message was very sad.moshin's intention isn't to patronize people but to learn.but moshin to be honest with you too much muslim conversation can get a bit borin.
yeh i knw, but its good 2 have a good balance.
but in banglacricket, people mainly have arguments
concerning on religion. So i thought why not.
(i made this thread during ramadan)

Parisa
December 23, 2007, 09:48 AM
yeh i knw, but its good 2 have a good balance.
but in banglacricket, people mainly have arguments
concerning on religion. So i thought why not.
(i made this thread during ramadan)

its best not to have too many threads on religions......lets keep forget cricket lively, friendly and entertaining....with less tension....this can be achieved through fun interesting threads....

Moshin
December 23, 2007, 09:53 AM
its best not to have too many threads on religions......lets keep forget cricket lively, friendly and entertaining....with less tension....this can be achieved through fun interesting threads....
ok then, but i made too many threads in the past, causing too much tension,
causing someone to make a poll about me..

Parisa
December 23, 2007, 09:56 AM
ok then, but i made too many threads in the past, causing too much tension,
causing someone to make a poll about me..

well i personally find religious threads very borin and i don't usually want to participate in them.its just good to have topics which suits most people.

Moshin
December 31, 2007, 03:49 PM
well i personally find religious threads very borin and i don't usually want to participate in them.its just good to have topics which suits most people.
you know participating in religious threads are the most debated things I have ever seen in BanglaCricket, take the state of gujarati muslims by al Furqaan, led to so many ideas and replies concerning on religious beliefs you know, plus religion does play a crucial part in people's lives and it is a good thing to discuss it sometimes.