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Tigers_eye
October 3, 2007, 08:19 AM
Nope! This is not want you are thinking. No sunset pitcures. I would like to know what does sunset mean to the western world?

I tried to contact weather.com and some local TV channels but they are yet to answer me on that. So I thought what is the better place than to post a thread in BC? I could post it in the question thread but many may not see.

I have been brought up knowing there are three times one can not say prayers. Sunrise, while the sun is at its highest position and sunset. Sunrise is no issue nor is the middle part. But I have an issue with the sunset. As far as I know the western world describes the time of sunset is as when it starts. In other words, when the sun touches the horizon. Not in the middle while going down and definitely not completely down. Depending on where one lives it takes from 2/3 minutes to 5/6 minutes for the sun to set. In Islamic world, during this time we can not pray and we must break our fast after the sun is completely gone down.

Most of the daily prayer scheduler takes the western world timing to calculate when the sunset starts. i guess by now one can find what I am trying to say here. Can anyone answer my question and correct my confusion? A reference of the information would be appreciated.

Are the entire muslim world (who are following the western timings) breaking their fast a tab bit early?

Rubu
October 3, 2007, 08:28 AM
This should not be too hard to figure out. There are lot of empty places in western world. If you have ocean close to you, that should be the best. Go there on a clear day and see when you cannot see the sun anymore. Compare the time with media given time and you'll have a pretty good idea.

Sorry, can't be anymore help than this. I always rely on the calender given by mosque. I think they take this into consideration. You can also follow the timing given in the free program called 'Azan' (do a google and you'll get it). They both matches for me.

Kabir
October 3, 2007, 08:40 AM
Mijan bhai, sharadin roja rakhar por 2/3 min ki etoi joruri hoye gelo? :(

I agree with Rubu bhai though. On top of this, you'll find clocks in some stores that have Athan and other Islamic calendar related stuff loaded into it. That will give you Athan at specific times during the day, and is quite correct to the best of my knowledge.

Tigers_eye
October 3, 2007, 09:34 AM
This should not be too hard to figure out. There are lot of empty places in western world. If you have ocean close to you, that should be the best. Go there on a clear day and see when you cannot see the sun anymore. Compare the time with media given time and you'll have a pretty good idea.
Great idea! However I am not in a position to do that.

Sorry, can't be anymore help than this. I always rely on the calender given by mosque. I think they take this into consideration. You can also follow the timing given in the free program called 'Azan' (do a google and you'll get it). They both matches for me.
No sorries!!

Mijan bhai, sharadin roja rakhar por 2/3 min ki etoi joruri hoye gelo? :(
You misunderstood me. I am the one who adds few minutes extra on what the time schedule is provided to me by the local mosque. The question is do you do it or not?

Don't take everything for granted. Get your scheduler and see what weather.com or any other western weather channels say.

From the IslamicFinder I get following time table after putting my zip code in:
http://www.islamicfinder.org/locate.php?ziporcity=72211&dist=10&start=0&state=&home=1
maghrib 5:62pm.
3 October, 2007 (http://www.islamicfinder.org/Hcal/index.php?lang=)
<TABLE dir=ltr borderColor=#008c8c cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=1 width=160 bgColor=#008c8c border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=IslamicHeadingsWhite align=middle colSpan=2>Today's Prayer Time </TD></TR><TR><TD class=IslamicData bgColor=#f4fffa>Day</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#f4fffa>Wednesday</TD></TR><TR><TD class=IslamicData bgColor=#f4fffa>Fajr</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#f4fffa>5:58 </TD></TR><TR><TD class=IslamicData bgColor=#f4fffa>Sunrise</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#f4fffa>7:06 </TD></TR><TR><TD class=IslamicData bgColor=#f4fffa>Dhuhr</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#f4fffa>1:00 </TD></TR><TR><TD class=IslamicData bgColor=#f4fffa>Asr</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#f4fffa>4:20 </TD></TR><TR><TD class=IslamicData bgColor=#f4fffa>Maghrib</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#f4fffa>6:52 </TD></TR><TR><TD class=IslamicData bgColor=#f4fffa>Isha</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#f4fffa>8:01 </TD></TR><TR><TD class=IslamicData bgColor=#f4fffa colSpan=2>Prayer calculation method used= ISNA
Get Prayer Times for zipcode: 72211 on Your Mobile Phone (http://www.islamicfinder.org/sms/sms_search.php?mode=reg&ref=11&t=expand&zipcode=72211&country=usa&timezone=-6.0) </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

And from weather.com putting my zipcode I get the sunset time as 6:51.
http://www.weather.com/outlook/events/sports/local/72211?from=hp_promolocator&lswe=72211&lwsa=Weather36HourSportsCommand
Now you tell me, it takes the sun to set in one minute? From touching the horizon to completely go down?

Tigers_eye
October 3, 2007, 09:48 AM
Check this out: (entered my zipcode) From islamicfinder.org
<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=1 width=330 bgColor=#a9c6f7><TBODY><TR><TD class=IslamicData align=middle colSpan=8>Prayer Schedule October / 2007 </TD></TR><TR><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffff>Day</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffff>Date</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffff>Fajr (http://javascript<b></b>:)</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffff>Sunrise (http://javascript<b></b>:)</SPAN></TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffff>Dhuhr (http://javascript<b></b>:)</SPAN></TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffff>Asr (http://javascript<b></b>:)</SPAN></TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffff>Maghrib (http://javascript<b></b>:)</SPAN></TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffff>Isha (http://javascript<b></b>:)</SPAN></TD></TR><TR><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffcc>3</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffcc>Wed</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffcc>5:58</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffcc>7:06</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffcc>1:00</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffcc>4:20</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffcc>6:52</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffcc>8:01</TD></TR><TR><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffff>4</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffff>Thu</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffff>5:58</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffff>7:06</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffff>1:00</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffff>4:20</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffff>6:52</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffff>8:01</TD></TR><TR><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffcc>5</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffcc>Fri</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffcc>6:00</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffcc>7:07</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffcc>12:59</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffcc>4:18</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffcc>6:49</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffcc>7:58</TD></TR><TR><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffff>6</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffff>Sat</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffff>6:01</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffff>7:08</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffff>12:59</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffff>4:17</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffff>6:48</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffff>7:57</TD></TR><TR><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffcc>7</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffcc>Sun</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffcc>6:01</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffcc>7:09</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffcc>12:59</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffcc>4:16</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffcc>6:47</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffcc>7:56</TD></TR><TR><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffff>8</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffff>Mon</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffff>6:02</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffff>7:10</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffff>12:58</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffff>4:15</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffff>6:45</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffff>7:54</TD></TR><TR><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffcc>9</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffcc>Tue</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffcc>6:03</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffcc>7:10</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffcc>12:58</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffcc>4:14</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffcc>6:44</TD><TD class=IslamicData align=middle bgColor=#ffffcc>7:53</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

From weather.com (my zipcode) gives me sunset at:
<TABLE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 3px; PADDING-LEFT: 3px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 3px; PADDING-TOP: 3px" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="80%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=blueFont10 align=left>5 Oct Sunset:</TD><TD class=blueFont10 align=left>6:49 PM CT

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
So the Islamic website matches exactly with the western time table on this day for my zipcode. If one follows these calendars for breaking fast then they breaking their fast while the sun is still up. I understand they are doing this not knowingly. But Don't we have a brain?

Kabir
October 3, 2007, 10:24 AM
You misunderstood me. I am the one who adds few minutes extra on what the time schedule is provided to me by the local mosque. The question is do you do it or not?

Nope. I don't. The reason is, as far as I understand, we have to open our fast at exactly the time that it should be. Now, for a person of my caliber, it is quite unnecessary to go the extra distance to verify whether whatever timings the local mosques are providing are right or not. The reason? Well, we are all given our specific duties. We specialize in what we do. And so, we should leave it to the people who specialize in setting the timings. If we have to verify everything in the world ourselves, it'll be a nightmare. :)

Don't take everything for granted. Get your scheduler and see what weather.com or any other western weather channels say.

Quick question. When you were in Bangladesh, what did you follow? I remember being in a rickshaw at Moghbazar when the Athan started, and by the time I reached Shantinogor, there was still Athan going on in different mosques.

All I'm trying to say is, 2/3 minutes, even if it falls within the time that we're not allowed to do something, should be fine under the conditions we are living in. :)

BD-Shardul
October 3, 2007, 11:41 AM
"It is impossible to see a sunset and not to dream"

akabir77
October 3, 2007, 12:04 PM
so what happens to the places where sun never sets (or for 6 months at a time)? can anyone shed some light on this? r they suppose to keep their roja for 6 months or what?

Rubu
October 3, 2007, 12:08 PM
so what happens to the places where sun never sets (or for 6 months at a time)? can anyone shed some light on this? r they suppose to keep their roja for 6 months or what?
That is a old question to make the mullahs feel uncomfortable. The answer they give is: use a nearby town's schedule where sunset/rise is normal.

but obviously, there is no mention of it in Hadith or Quran. I guess it came from Izma/Kayes (sp).

akabir77
October 3, 2007, 12:20 PM
That is a old question to make the mullahs feel uncomfortable. The answer they give is: use a nearby town's schedule where sunset/rise is normal.

but obviously, there is no mention of it in Hadith or Quran. I guess it came from Izma/Kayes (sp).

But on one hand we have some people (T_E) wants to be sure down to the very second and then on the other hand in those cases we have to go by the nearest town?

Do they do that now or there r no muslims in those places?

(I am asking Q not trying to start a war or something...)

Tigers_eye
October 3, 2007, 12:46 PM
"It is impossible to see a sunset and not to dream"
With our day to day activity and circumstances it is almost impossible I agree. Therefore we follow the time table given by the mosques or internet websites. But these time tables or calendars mostly follow the western timetable of sunset which again I think only indicates that the sun touched the horizon (that is my understanding). Hence my original question asks for what does sunset mean from the western world's view point. Please let us know if you know otherwise.
"It is impossible to see a sunset and not to dream"
Who is dreaming? I do not understand by the quotation mark either. Who's quote is this?

Akabir bhai,
Yes, Rubu has answered your question. i would like to add that same ruling applies for prayers. 'Five times a day' and sun not rising and setting could arise a problem :)
Other scholars have mentioned that if a person is at a place where one may have a 23 hours of daylight he may follow the following rules:
1) fast for 23 hours if possible.
2) move to another place where the day light time is normal.
3) make kadha when the daylight time is normal (if fasting can not physically possible in the month of ramadan).
4) Feed a poor person (minmum of 750 grams of food (rice, grain etc.) for each day.

kabir bhaia,
20/30 years back not very many mosques had time schedules. The muazzin use to make the Adhan old fashion way. I did break fast with the adhan then. But Now I wait at least 3 minutes since there is a confusion in my mind and searching for the right answer.

Tigers_eye
October 3, 2007, 12:50 PM
But on one hand we have some people (T_E) wants to be sure down to the very second and then on the other hand in those cases we have to go by the nearest town?

Do they do that now or there r no muslims in those places?
The rulings (while breaking fast while the sun is up) are for extreme circumstances. Not for normal day living at Kansas City or Little Rock. :)

akabir77
October 3, 2007, 02:05 PM
thanks T_E for the info... I always wit two/one min but i didn't knew why? some body told me so i do that... (yeah i don't have a brain :( )... anyway i liked the 4th option... wish i could do that....

al Furqaan
October 3, 2007, 05:42 PM
i just go by what islamicfinder says...

Nocturnal
October 3, 2007, 10:51 PM
i just go by what islamicfinder says...

same here, i do that too.

BD-Shardul
October 4, 2007, 12:56 AM
TE Bhai,

I found this qoute in a Reader's Digest. I forgot who said it.

Actually I had no time to see what the discussion is about. I just saw the title of the thread, and that quote peeped into my mind, and I posted it. Don't take it seroiusly.

Sohel
October 4, 2007, 03:38 AM
Here's a view: -

The Fasting of 10 days in Ramadhan

"O you who believe, fasting has been decreed for you as it was decreed for those before you, perhaps you may be righteous. A few number of days (ayaam madoodat); however, if an of you is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days; and as for those who can do so but with difficulty, they may redeem by feeding the needy. And whoever does good voluntarily, then it is better for him. And if you fast it is better for you if you knew." (2:183-184)

The period which we are to fast has been defined by the word 'madoodat/few'. This word typically indicates a number from 3-10 as the term 'madoodat' is used for numbers which can be simply counted even by the fingers of the hand (this same word can be seen in 2:203 to indicate a period of at least 3 days).

The question of which number from 3-10 is required for the fast (since, by definition, any number from this range is correctly defined as 'madood') is answered by 2:185 in which God say's "so that you may complete the count". The complete count for our number system is a 10-based system (see 2:196). i.e. we when we reach 10, we start the count again with 11, 12, 13, etc.. (this is different from an 8 based system which has been used in the past or even a 7 base system).

"It has been made lawful for you during the night of fasting to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knows that you used to betray your souls so He Has accepted your repentance, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what God Has written for you. And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in the temples. These are God's boundaries, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God makes His revelations clear to the people that they may be righteous." (2:187)

According to the above verse, the fast is to occur from just before dawn and lasts till the night.

http://www.free-minds.org/articles/science/calendars.htm

As for myself, I go the conventional route and fast the entire month for personal as well as reasons of greater unity. However, I break my fast only with a glass of water for the important sake of that greater unity, and have the "proper" Iftar - namely dates, a bit of bread and salads - after Maghrib prayers and the beginning of the night.

BTW, for those not duly familiar with Quraanic Arabic, here are a couple of links to the Holy Quraan translated in easy to understand English. Any useful, linguistic, semiotic or otherwise erudite critique is most welcome.

http://www.geocities.com/masad02/

http://www.free-minds.org/quran/

A gentle reminder: purely dogmatic jingoism masquerading as "debate" or "dispute" without proper erudition only leads to further embarrassment of all involved. It is sad to try and "refute" what one hasn't examined in detail or in good faith without angry and bitter preconceptions ... :)

Bancan
October 4, 2007, 09:04 PM
TE Bhai,

I found this qoute in a Reader's Digest. I forgot who said it.

Actually I had no time to see what the discussion is about. I just saw the title of the thread, and that quote peeped into my mind, and I posted it. Don't take it seroiusly.

Which issue?