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al Furqaan
October 15, 2007, 05:12 PM
so the US congress (correctly) declares the murder of 1.5 million armenians as genocide.

fine, and a well applauded move.

so when will they declare the murder of bengalis in 1971 at the hands of Pakistan as another genocide?

Kana-Baba
October 15, 2007, 05:36 PM
so the US congress (correctly) declares the murder of 1.5 million armenians as genocide.

fine, and a well applauded move.

so when will they declare the murder of bengalis in 1971 at the hands of Pakistan as another genocide?

Do we care about it; do we need to care about it?

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IMO, we do not need to care about declaration from a country who by itself was involved in bloodshed such as nukes at Japan or Mylie massacre in Vietnam.
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al Furqaan
October 15, 2007, 05:48 PM
Do we care about it; do we need to care about it?

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IMO, we do not need to care about declaration from a country who by itself was involved in bloodshed such as nukes at Japan or Mylie massacre in Vietnam?
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rhetorical question...i dont expect any recognition.

Kabir
October 15, 2007, 10:17 PM
Exactly as K-B said, who cares about what they declare and what they don't?

Do we need their formal recognition to call something "SOMETHING"? And if they don't, we can't do anything?

History speaks for itself. The Americans have been involved in world's worst massacre, the bombing of Hiroshima. They've themselves been involved in the killing of innocent people just like anyone else would've done at a war. What makes them different from any of the evils?

Ganguly da
October 15, 2007, 10:32 PM
Exactly as K-B said, who cares about what they declare and what they don't?

Do we need their formal recognition to call something "SOMETHING"? And if they don't, we can't do anything?

History speaks for itself. The Americans have been involved in world's worst massacre, the bombing of Hiroshima. They've themselves been involved in the killing of innocent people just like anyone else would've done at a war. What makes them different from any of the evils?

well there are quite a handful of exceptions where we see American army saving civilians and governments from collapsing, and WWII is the biggest example of American bravery. And while Iran is busy sponsoring suicide bombers, many US commanders are helping build homes, sewage system and school structure in Iraq and Afghanistan...which is often not showed in the media. I have spoken to quite a few soldiers in my university who has returned from their Iraq tour and they have said about how a lot of people in Iraq are thankful that US army is there to guard the villages and such. I personally salute US armed forces and their courage is immense, however I dislike washington policy makers.

Having said that, it doesn't matter what America considers "genocide".....just by them officially recognizing it doesn't change the fact that it was genocide 30+ years ago also.

Massacre of Bangladeshis, I consider a silent genocide. Everyone knows about Holocaust but hardly anyone knows about the massacre by Pakistani regime. Sadly, many young pakistani and bangladeshi never heard of it......I don't know why they were never told/ or hidden from by their parents.

BanCricFan
October 16, 2007, 07:53 AM
<TABLE id=HB_Mail_Container height="100%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0 UNSELECTABLE="on"><TBODY><TR height="100%" UNSELECTABLE="on" width="100%"><TD id=HB_Focus_Element vAlign=top width="100%" background="" height=250 UNSELECTABLE="off"></TD></TR><TR UNSELECTABLE="on" hb_tag="1"><TD style="FONT-SIZE: 1pt" height=1 UNSELECTABLE="on">
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>. And while Iran is busy sponsoring suicide bombers, many US commanders are helping build homes, sewage system and school structure in Iraq and Afghanistan...which is often not showed in the media. .

With this sort of "whiter than white" patriotism, MAN- you should be voted in as U.S president!

This could be your election manifesto:

Iran = bad guys

USA = Good guys

Kabir
October 16, 2007, 08:55 AM
well there are quite a handful of exceptions where we see American army saving civilians and governments from collapsing, and WWII is the biggest example of American bravery.

So, basically since they acted bravely in WWII, they're the heroes forever. Nice. I don't know how to even start arguing about this...so I'll pass.

And while Iran is busy sponsoring suicide bombers, many US commanders are helping build homes, sewage system and school structure in Iraq and Afghanistan...which is often not showed in the media.

BanCricFan's post summarizes it all.

When you're talking like an educated adult, talking about "myths" are kind of silly. Iran producing suicide bombers, US commanders building homes and school in Iraq and Afghanistan...these are all "myths" to some extent. So please, don't make me laugh any more.

I have spoken to quite a few soldiers in my university who has returned from their Iraq tour and they have said about how a lot of people in Iraq are thankful that US army is there to guard the villages and such. I personally salute US armed forces and their courage is immense, however I dislike washington policy makers.

Oh my God, really? Did you shake hands with them too? How did it feel?

Jokes apart, this is exactly what I was talking about earlier. We don't need a stamp of approval from the US authority to call something "SOMETHING". We know that US has failed BIG TIME in Iraq so far. We also know that a majority of Iraqis hate the US army, and they're suffering beyond imagination. And we also know that there was no Alqayeda in Iraq before US invasion. It has come to such a point that even CNN cannot disagree about it...and they admit this now. But sigh, it's too late I guess. These "myths" have been injected in so many people that in 10 years, these will be written in history books as "reality".

Having said that, it doesn't matter what America considers "genocide".....just by them officially recognizing it doesn't change the fact that it was genocide 30+ years ago also.

Hmmm, I don't know if you're the same person who wrote the rest of the post!

Sohel
October 16, 2007, 10:05 AM
There is no statute of limitation when it comes to genocide, or extrajudicial mass murder based on the 'general perception' of one group exercising brutal, violent and lethal power over another after stripping them of their individuality. Collective 'punishment' is an easy bandwagon to jump on when it becomes too difficult to deal with real issues at hand, personal and political. The actual numbers don't or perhaps shouldn't matter much in the final analysis.

Native Americans at the hands of Europeans; Armenians at the hands of the Byzantine Turks; Jews, Gypsies, Gays, Disabled, Leftists and Dissidents at the hands of the Nazis; Koreans and Chinese at the hands of the Japanese; The Japanese at the hands of the US; Vietnamese and Cambodians at the hands of the US; Bangladeshis at the hands of Pakistanis and their 'Muslim fundamentalist' allies; Cambodians at the hands of Pol Pot; Palestinians at the hands of Israelis (when refugee camps get bombed indiscriminately); Iranians and Kurds at the hands of Saddam Hussein; Bosnians at the hands of the Serbs; Minority tribes in Rwanda and Sudan; Iraqis at the hands of the US (the term 'collateral damage' does not cut the mustard here); Non-combatants at the hands of terrorists everywhere ... the list goes on, as does exclusion, intolerance and hatred - all too often in the name of GOD and State. As a Muslim, I believe that the proverbial chicken does always comes home to roost, both in this world, and the world to come.

The American move is clearly motivated politically and that's regrettable but not at all surprising. Gangu Da's comments on the other hand are, to me at least. I have questions: -

1) What is the fundamental definition terrorism and why states such as the US, Israel and Saudi Arabia are not covered by that definition but Iran, a nation that also openly supports a legitimate resistance slash popular progressive movement like HizbAllah is?

2) Could you please list the 'suicide bombers' Iran has sponsored in West Asia and elsewhere? Iran has many internal as well as foreign policy issues, there is no need to buy into poorly constructed fiction from dimwitted warmongers and neo-con imbeciles (except Condy) working for Junior Bush. 'Suicide bombing' outside Sri Lanka is the weapon of choice for many often anti-Iranian, Wahabi-inspired groups financed by Saudi money, and malicious distortion and pathological misuse of various exclusivist Islamic ideologies primarily from Egypt and Pakistan.

3) Do you wish to question some of these easy attitudes you seem to demonstrate so comfortably? If you do, then allow me to humbly suggest a close, detailed visit to the following videos from 1997. It maybe 'them' today, but it can just as easily be 'us' tomorrow.

On Orientalism-Edward Said ... Part 1/4
<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/xwCOSkXR_Cw"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/xwCOSkXR_Cw" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

On Orientalism-Edward Said ... Part 2/4
<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/n0HYX9JVH8o"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/n0HYX9JVH8o" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

On Orientalism-Edward Said ... Part 3/4
<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/tlF5ED-gE5Y"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/tlF5ED-gE5Y" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

On Orientalism-Edward Said ... Part 4/4
<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/tZLA-mwOdSs"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/tZLA-mwOdSs" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

Apologies if I managed to offend anyone, especially Gangu Da in any way ... :)

Peace, Sohel

Ganguly da
October 16, 2007, 11:30 AM
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With this sort of "whiter than white" patriotism, MAN- you should be voted in as U.S president!

This could be your election manifesto:

Iran = bad guys

USA = Good guys




Read between my lines my good sir. All I meant is ....two sides of a coin...and you can't completely carve heads on both.

Everything that has been done in human history had a purpose and motive. So there is no "good" or "bad" guys....just guys with an agenda, it can viewed in terms of good or bad but that depends on which side of coin you land on.

Ganguly da
October 16, 2007, 11:57 AM
So, basically since they acted bravely in WWII, they're the heroes forever. Nice. I don't know how to even start arguing about this...so I'll pass.

Who's talking about heroes forever??? I was highlighting some of the positives that came out of US army campaign. Enough with your collective hatred.


BanCricFan's post summarizes it all.

no it doesn't.

When you're talking like an educated adult, talking about "myths" are kind of silly. Iran producing suicide bombers, US commanders building homes and school in Iraq and Afghanistan...these are all "myths" to some extent. So please, don't make me laugh any more.

What myths are you talking about? Once again I am highlighting some of the brightest aspects of this campaign.

Oh my God, really? Did you shake hands with them too? How did it feel?

Wow that was hilarious! I'm balling my eyes out in laughter. To tell you the truth, it did feel great. It's always an honor to meet a soldier and as an American I feel proud. Some of the things he expressed are beyond imaginable. And yes they have done some wonderful things in Iraq amongst the war. Once again your vision is blanketed by the collective hatred.


Jokes apart, this is exactly what I was talking about earlier. We don't need a stamp of approval from the US authority to call something "SOMETHING". We know that US has failed BIG TIME in Iraq so far. We also know that a majority of Iraqis hate the US army, and they're suffering beyond imagination. And we also know that there was no Alqayeda in Iraq before US invasion. It has come to such a point that even CNN cannot disagree about it...and they admit this now. But sigh, it's too late I guess. These "myths" have been injected in so many people that in 10 years, these will be written in history books as "reality".

I'm not arguing on why US army invaded Iraq and all that. Separate topic and I personally never wanted them to invade Iraq despite of all the hatred I had for Saddam and his two sons. There are a lot of people in Iraq who are glad that US protecting their interests. And what about Afghanistan? you would have preferred Taliban regime over the current allied govt they have? the freedom they have? the women's rights?

You said, there was no Alqaeda before US invasion. What is Alqaeda? So how did Alqaeda form? what was their purpose? where did they get sponsorship and tactical information network? who is helping them grow? Why are they killing their own 'brothers' ? Have you ever asked yourself these questions??? What is their ultimate goal...to drive out foreign forces or to take over Iraq?


Hmmm, I don't know if you're the same person who wrote the rest of the post!

Yea I am. I'm not a blind follower. And yes US did fail in Iraq though not in everything.

Xavier
October 16, 2007, 02:03 PM
I wonder how the embargo against Iraq that lasted from 1991 to 2003 and caused 500.000 people to die (many of them children) should be considered...

Ganguly da
October 16, 2007, 04:25 PM
I wonder how the embargo against Iraq that lasted from 1991 to 2003 and caused 500.000 people to die (many of them children) should be considered...

inhumane policymakers.

Alien
October 16, 2007, 07:24 PM
Do we care about it; do we need to care about it?

<?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = O /><O:P></O:P>
IMO, we do not need to care about declaration from a country who by itself was involved in bloodshed such as nukes at Japan or Mylie massacre in Vietnam.
<o:p]< O:P>
</o:p]<>

Exactly. Couldn't give a rats back to what US congress the biggest Satanic congress has to say about who did what genocide.

Hatebreed
October 17, 2007, 12:49 PM
I’m assuming you guys are arguing whether or not the US recognised the Armenian genocide out of their own goodwill and if it even matters what they think, considering they themselves have committed and supported terrorism, dictatorship, massacres and other brutalities throughout history and still continuing.

As far as the Armenian genocide is concerned, I know that it has been recognised by the US only after years of efforts by Armenians in America who ran campaigns to raise its awareness. Now whether or not you care about what the US considers genocide or the '71 genocide for that matter, is unimportant, because I don't believe Bangladeshis have made an extensive effort to have it internationally recognised. It is not whether we expect the US to recognise it, but why should we want the US to recognise it? Because they knowingly supported Pakistan during the time it happened and they should admit it and bear their share of responsibility.



I'm not arguing on why US army invaded Iraq and all that. Separate topic and I personally never wanted them to invade Iraq despite of all the hatred I had for Saddam and his two sons. There are a lot of people in Iraq who are glad that US protecting their interests. And what about Afghanistan? you would have preferred Taliban regime over the current allied govt they have? the freedom they have? the women's rights?


Do you not know how Saddam came to power in the first place, and other dictators, like Auguto Pinochet, all of whom have committed mass murders? Have you considered what US intervention in other countries have done to the interests of their people?



You said, there was no Alqaeda before US invasion. What is Alqaeda? So how did Alqaeda form? what was their purpose? where did they get sponsorship and tactical information network? who is helping them grow? Why are they killing their own 'brothers' ? Have you ever asked yourself these questions??? What is their ultimate goal...to drive out foreign forces or to take over Iraq?
You should ask yourself these questions. I'm not sure if Kabir suggested Al-Qaeda didn't exist before US invasion of Afghanistan or that was a myth propagated by the media. Either way you don't seem to know it was the US that armed, trained and supported the Al-Qaeda, and Taliban regime during their fight against the Soviets, back when they were considered “resistance” and not terrorists. Did the US consider then that Taliban had no interest in women’s rights?

Everything has happened in US interests, not the interests of any other people or country, and no amount of building frickin sewage systems will change the dirty imperialistic involvement of US behind the sufferings of millions of people. Clearly you are blanketed by collective ignorance.