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jahidus200
December 24, 2007, 01:34 AM
masraffie and shadat rajib , now we have two fast genuine bowler . shadat sometimes he bowl 90 miles , that is really fast. and he pick up some good wicket with bounce and yorker delivery . and we have other best odi spinner razzak.if rasel could stay in odi team its could be good too .and other way we have great batting site tamim .aftab ,ashraful. so now look like we have great bowling and batting site . i think we should have odi contest with newzealand . and i hope we could win if we use our best confident .

wiseshah
December 24, 2007, 02:29 AM
oh yes and couldnt agree with u anymore. as a 3rd pacer rasel is also good choice

karimjay.
December 24, 2007, 05:30 AM
REACHING 90 miles doesn't make someone a genuine pacer..

realpain20
December 24, 2007, 06:04 AM
I agree, I think these 2 Mash and Rajib should be our new ball bowlers, and Rasel should be our 3rd pacer!

Tiger Bhai
December 24, 2007, 06:22 AM
pls don't start again!

zainab
December 24, 2007, 06:44 AM
Well Rasel is injured and out of the team. I feel that every squad should have at least 5 genuine pacers in good form at any given time, because injuries do occur to fast bowlers. The selectors should be aware of this and not caught napping.

al-Sagar
December 24, 2007, 08:31 AM
i hope jamie siddons include a good FAST BOWLING coach in our team.

that will help the likes of mashrafe, shahadat, nazmul, tapash, dollar mahmud, rasel, sajidul and others to perform better.

zainab
December 25, 2007, 01:21 PM
i hope jamie siddons include a good FAST BOWLING coach in our team.

that will help the likes of mashrafe, shahadat, nazmul, tapash, dollar mahmud, rasel, sajidul and others to perform better.

I agree! Good bowling wins matches. In the heydays of the Windians, they won matches by good fast bowling, hardly had any spinners, they also had about 5 good batsmen who delivered the goods.

zahid
December 25, 2007, 02:29 PM
Mashrafe is no more a pace spearhead for us.

BangladeshFan
December 25, 2007, 02:52 PM
has he clocked 90 mph yet?

anyway shahadat's in your face attitude works well though if he can back it up with pace and swing. mashrafi is calm and accuracy is his weapon. together they can form a partnership. "fast bowlers hunt in pairs".

al Furqaan
December 25, 2007, 02:59 PM
rajib has not yet hit 90 mph - fastest i have seen him throw it down has been 88.7 mph yorker during the Mirpur Test against India.

IanW
December 25, 2007, 04:09 PM
Genuinely fast bowlers are rare. Very, very rare.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/blogs/googlies/2007/12/17/coming-apart-at-the-seamers/ will give some perspective.

al Furqaan
December 25, 2007, 04:38 PM
bond is the only test bowler to have clean bowled, lara, dravid and tendullkar.

did not know that.

BangladeshFan
December 25, 2007, 05:08 PM
Genuinely fast bowlers are rare. Very, very rare.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/blogs/googlies/2007/12/17/coming-apart-at-the-seamers/ will give some perspective.

Was just trying to think of some genuinely quick bowlers from 90s upto now, seems like there are very few.

Aus: Lee
Pak: Waqar, Shoaib
Ind: none
Sl: none
Eng: none
Nz: Bond
SA: none
WI: none

may be there are a few more. but its surprising how few there are:o

Gowza
December 25, 2007, 05:59 PM
it depends what you're calling genuinely quick. capable of 155+, capable of 150+ or just consistently bowls 145+. if all they need to do is be able to touch 150+ then johnson and tait from australia are also included, tait can obviously hit over 155 but johnson has definately hit 150 in test cricket. also do we just count internationals or do we count state/province/county players as well because i'm sure there have been a few hyped bowlers from lower divisons who can bowl 150+ e.g. jones from england, ngam from south africa and a pakistani from a few years ago who supposedly in his early 20s could regularly hit 155kph.

also if the benchmark for genuine pace is just over 145kph consistently then there are quite a few players who can currently do that. but if it's being able to hit 150 and do it at least a few times a match then there are a lot less and lately bond hasn't even been able to do that i don't think.

Dhakablues
December 26, 2007, 01:50 AM
Well, if Mashfafee is the fast bowler,, so is Forhad. Cause both of them are bowling at 135 Kms.. Only Shahadat is bowling at 140+. I beleive the rule of thumb is 140-145 consistently to be considered a fast bowler. In that sense,, Mashrafee is medium pacer.. Man that sounds so awful!!

Nafi
December 26, 2007, 05:20 AM
but johnson has definately hit 150 in test cricket.

Ive never heard of a left armer who has bowled that fast, so Im skeptical


Was just trying to think of some genuinely quick bowlers from 90s upto now, seems like there are very few.

Aus: Lee
Pak: Waqar, Shoaib
Ind: none
Sl: none
Eng: none
Nz: Bond
SA: none
WI: none

may be there are a few more. but its surprising how few there are:o

You are missing a lot from year 2000 onwards

Aus: Lee, Shaun tait
Pak: Shoaib
Ind: none
Sl: Malinga
Eng: none
Nz: Bond
SA: Dale Steyn
WI: Fidel Edwards

nahaz
December 26, 2007, 05:32 AM
^Tell u one thing..its not fast bowlers that get wickets...its fast bowlers that bowl a good line and/or length that get wickets. Mash doesn't need to bowl at 145 to get wickets, he needs to bowl withrythm. If u bowl with rhythm 135+ is fast enough.Otherwise 140 kph is cannon-fodder for world-class batsmen..ask Ash. Good aggresive accurate bowlers( with 135+ speed) are what we need.
For the record....shahadat has been a better bowler than mash for a while now..

Gowza
December 26, 2007, 06:02 AM
Ive never heard of a left armer who has bowled that fast, so Im skeptical

i guess the speed guns used for the 2 test matches this season in ausstralia for the australia vs sri lanka series were wrong then because going by those speed guns johnson hit 150+ on at least 5 occassions and for at least his first spell in test cricket was regularly hitting the high 140s (146-149) consistently.

Nafi
December 26, 2007, 06:04 AM
i guess the speed guns used for the 2 test matches this season in ausstralia for the australia vs sri lanka series were wrong then because going by those speed guns johnson hit 150+ on at least 5 occassions and for at least his first spell in test cricket was regularly hitting the high 140s (146-149) consistently.

i just needed verification

Gowza
December 26, 2007, 06:17 AM
i think i saw RP singh bowl a 150kph ball in the recent one-day series against australia in india but not absolutely certain on that one, but he's also a left armer.

Nafi
December 26, 2007, 06:30 AM
i think i saw RP singh bowl a 150kph ball in the recent one-day series against australia in india but not absolutely certain on that one, but he's also a left armer.

okay now you are just chatting bakwas

Fastest bowl from an indian in a decade was bowled in that match and it was from sreesanth at 144km, RP singh managed a couple of 140+ deliveries.

Because of this misinformation, I question your credibility and hold very little water about statement that johnson hit 150 Kmh several times in the SL series that I followed. Yes I know I sound a bit frigid, but thats debate for you.

Gowza
December 26, 2007, 06:36 AM
they had 7 ODIs in that series and both RP Singh and Sreesanth both hit at least 148kph in one or some of those matches unless the speed gun was incorrect.

Nafi
December 26, 2007, 07:32 AM
they had 7 ODIs in that series and both RP Singh and Sreesanth both hit at least 148kph in one or some of those matches unless the speed gun was incorrect.

show me proof (screenshot or something) because this is plain FALSE.

Gowza
December 26, 2007, 07:34 AM
some quotes by others in another forum about the recent one-day india/australia series in india:

"Shreesant touched 147 in the first matchand zaheer also touched 140.johnson touched 149.5
irfan touched 140" by Cricket_god page 2

"Shreesanth bowled consistently over 143 in the first match" by surendar page 2

"To Johnson credit he has been bowling a lot quicker this tour, clocked up 149km/h and hes been swinging the new ball so the potential is there." by aussie1st page 2

"Pace bowler? What are Sreesanth and RP Singh there for? These guys crank up a maximum pace of close to 148kph. Thats quite some pace especially for an Indian fast bowler. May be we dont have a Brett Lee or a Shane Bond, but these guys are quite good bowlers when it comes to pace. And they are bowling well too." by saisrini80 page 2

"RP getting some pace! Started at 142 kph and up to 148.5 now! That's 92.3 mph by my calculations." by sohummisra page 4

"Also I was impresses by R.P singhs pace ,He was near the 150 km/hr, and consistently over 140" by Cricket_god page 5

"Crowd is loud today.
And have a reason, too! Clarke, the man in form, gone first ball! :happy!
Sree bowling real quick too-149 once!" by Cricketman93 page 6

"Johnson doesn't have to say or do anything to much but when a bowler who has the ability to bowl 150kph walks away from a confrontation which is being instigated by a tailend batsman then that is just flat out embarrassing." by wfdu_ben91 page 8

here's the address if you want to go through the thread to check that i'm telling the truth:
http://www.planetcricket.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-35545.html

i know these aren't official sources but at least it shows that other people also have seen that these 3 guys have at least bowled in the high 140s if not touched 150 on occassion. to make things clear i'm not saying they hit 150 or high 140s consistently, all i'm saying is that they've done it at least once assuming the speed guns are correct.

Nafi
December 26, 2007, 07:39 AM
Well I can just say theyre wrong

I saw those matches too, and I only saw Sreesanth bowl a 144k delivery, even tho it didnt really appear that fast, and I saw RP singh hit a similiar speeed one, but none of those two went any higher.

Though I can beleive that Johnson hit the 150 mark probably, he is the fastest left handed bowler in international cricket

Gowza
December 26, 2007, 07:42 AM
that's alright you don't have to believe it, i guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

Gowza
December 26, 2007, 08:14 AM
actually i'm going through the cricinfo commentry on the matches and will check for bowling speeds, sometimes they put them in there.

"3.1 Sreesanth to Hodge, 1 wide, 145.5 but that was wide, wider and widest. Swinging even. Dhoni got there easily but Hodge needed two brooms to even touch it.. "

"3.2 Sreesanth to Clarke, no run, 147 now. Pace like fire, maan. Outside off and swinging away. Clarke lets it go."

"16.4 Sreesanth to Haddin, 1 no ball, beamer and he apologises immediately. It was waist-high and 144k, Haddin manages to defend it away"

"44.4 Sreesanth to Hopes, 1 run, 146.1 kmph, outswinging yorker, dug out to cover point "

http://content-aus.cricinfo.com/indvaus/engine/match/297793.html?innings=1;view=commentary

these are just some from the first ODI.

insideedge
December 26, 2007, 08:23 AM
I watched Sreesanth bowl up to 148 kmph and RP Singh upto 147 kmph. And there are some clippings of these too available. I am aware of the clips in of their pace too.

But there is no point trying to convince someone here. Let him believe what he likes to believe. What matters is that Sreesanth and RP Singh are capable of taking wickets ( that too clean bowleds) against Australia, as we saw during the recent Twenty20 and ODI matches between India and Australia.

Imtiazk
December 26, 2007, 08:49 AM
[quote=Nafi;587044]Ive never heard of a left armer who has bowled that fast, so Im skeptical

Johnston is fast ! No doubt. Regarding lefties, have you never heard of a certain Wasim Akram in the early 90's. Even Zaheer before his injury used to bowl 88mph [ around 140 kph ].

insideedge
December 26, 2007, 10:13 AM
This youtube clip of RP Singh's over show RP Singh clocking 144.1, 145.7, 147.2,142.8 and 142.8 kmph on consecutive deliveries in the 49th over of Australian innings in the 4th ODI.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-zoWzI_Eac

Orion
December 26, 2007, 02:02 PM
Shahadat and Masri are both medium fast bowlers.....they range from 130 to 140s which is quite decent and with time they will become better......we need a fast bowling coach as Siddon's assistant......Shaun Williams was just a makeshift coach....

al Furqaan
December 26, 2007, 02:07 PM
This youtube clip of RP Singh's over show RP Singh clocking 144.1, 145.7, 147.2,142.8 and 142.8 kmph on consecutive deliveries in the 49th over of Australian innings in the 4th ODI.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-zoWzI_Eac

those deliveries didn't look to fast. plus this was all the way in the end of the innings and i remember irfan was hitting 138 k this series too. something might be up with the speed guns. indian quicks seem to be a good 5-10 k faster at home than anywhere else.
if a guy can hit 147 k in the 49th over he should either 1) hit 150+ when fresh or 2) hit 145+ all the time when fresh. i don't think RP does either.

still, he and sree and prolly the quickest indian duo of all time.

Nafi
December 26, 2007, 02:10 PM
Shahadat and Masri are both medium fast bowlers.....they range from 130 to 140s which is quite decent and with time they will become better......we need a fast bowling coach as Siddon's assistant......Shaun Williams was just a makeshift coach....

no they are fast-medium bowlers

Gowza
December 26, 2007, 03:54 PM
I watched Sreesanth bowl up to 148 kmph and RP Singh upto 147 kmph. And there are some clippings of these too available. I am aware of the clips in of their pace too.

But there is no point trying to convince someone here. Let him believe what he likes to believe. What matters is that Sreesanth and RP Singh are capable of taking wickets ( that too clean bowleds) against Australia, as we saw during the recent Twenty20 and ODI matches between India and Australia.

yeah i know, all i can do is provide some sources (something that the person questioning my credibility isn't doing for their own claims) even if they are just secondary sources, thanks for the sources you brought to the table. anyway, the speed guns might be wrong but all i'm doing is going by the speed guns, as i've said at least once in this thread i'm going by the speed guns but if they're wrong they're wrong and that's not my fault.

Eshen
December 26, 2007, 05:43 PM
no they are fast-medium bowlers
That's correct. Mash, Rajib, Farhad, Sajid - all four can be labeled as fast mediums.

Mashrafe was the only genuine fast bowler Bangladesh ever had, but then he got injured.

Nafi
December 26, 2007, 05:48 PM
agreed mash had the most promising stature to become a geniune fast bowler, he isnt too lanki and has good proportioned musculature

al Furqaan
December 26, 2007, 05:57 PM
its true the guns were recording sree and RP really high, but none of the deliveries looked that quick. those paces are lightning.

insideedge
December 26, 2007, 06:26 PM
Remember, Lee and Johnson were also bowling in the ODI matches where RP Singh and Sreesanth were bowling. Lee clocked 150 kmph in the above match where RP Singh clocked 147 kmph.

He and Sreesanth clocked similar speeds in the Twenty20 world cup too, but there is no point giving those links here, if there are people who first ask for link and they refuse to believe the links too. So they may use their judgement over and above the speed guns, according to which RP Singh bowling at 147 kmph as per speedgun does not look fast ( despite troubling the batsmen), Lee bowling at 150 kmph in the same match looks fast to the same eyes, and when it comes to Shahadat and Mashrafe, they are genuinely quick, never mind if they are nowhere near these speeds.

Suit yourself, everyone has the freedom of prejudice.

al Furqaan
December 26, 2007, 08:56 PM
Remember, Lee and Johnson were also bowling in the ODI matches where RP Singh and Sreesanth were bowling. Lee clocked 150 kmph in the above match where RP Singh clocked 147 kmph.

He and Sreesanth clocked similar speeds in the Twenty20 world cup too, but there is no point giving those links here, if there are people who first ask for link and they refuse to believe the links too. So they may use their judgement over and above the speed guns, according to which RP Singh bowling at 147 kmph as per speedgun does not look fast ( despite troubling the batsmen), Lee bowling at 150 kmph in the same match looks fast to the same eyes, and when it comes to Shahadat and Mashrafe, they are genuinely quick, never mind if they are nowhere near these speeds.

Suit yourself, everyone has the freedom of prejudice.

no one has said anything about masri and shahadat being genuineily quick. at least i haven't. in fact, in post number 37 above, Nafi says that "mash had the ability to be a legit quick". which obviously means that he is NOT a legit quick.

shahadat and masri are not as fast as sree or RP. of course.

but mash has hit 145 k before which is close to RP's max of 147 or 148. similarily rajib has notched 143. so they aren't too far behind. lets remember that rajib doesn't always bowl at 143, but neither does RP always hang around 148.

i'm just saying that indian pacers are, based on speed guns, the fastest set of bowlers in the world at home. they are always clocking ridiculous speeds at home. it happens nearly every series. i just find it kind of a hard coincidence since even indian fans admit that thier bowlers are not world's fastest. yet judging by the gun, they are. at least they are among the fastest.

Gowza
December 26, 2007, 09:37 PM
australia might just nudge out india as the fastest attack at home with lee, tait and johnson. clark and bracken are much slower, hilfenhaus who's probably the next in line also regularly bowls 140-145 kph. it would be pretty close between australia and india at home but i think lee and tait would be slightly quicker than the rest. pakistan might be contenders as well though with akhtar, sami and gul they're all pretty quick.

Sohel
December 27, 2007, 02:39 AM
We shouldn't consider anyone AVERAGING less than at least 140kmph to be a "fast" bowler. We're playing International Cricket now and need sporting, greener wickets to develop "genuine" pacers. If the Lankans can do it, so can we.

Who knows what faster wickets can do for genuine pace prospects like Suman Saha, Shubhashish Roy and Rubel Hossain in 5 years ... :)

IanW
December 27, 2007, 07:59 AM
Ive never heard of a left armer who has bowled that fast, so Im skeptical




You are missing a lot from year 2000 onwards

Aus: Lee, Shaun tait
Pak: Shoaib
Ind: none
Sl: Malinga
Eng: none
Nz: Bond
SA: Dale Steyn
WI: Fidel Edwards

Thats the point, isnt it ... a lot of players holding down seamers jobs, and only a small handful are genuinely quick.

Actual Express bowlers is a much shorter list - Lee isnt express any more, Malinga never was, Edwards never was, and so on.

But if you arent Express, then you need something else - swing, seam, accuracy, the ability to take wickets with bad balls, the ability to outthink batsmen, something ...

Imtiazk
December 27, 2007, 08:12 AM
Thats the point, isnt it ... a lot of players holding down seamers jobs, and only a small handful are genuinely quick....

Ian, Where would you place Marshall, Holding [ in their heyday ]? I suppose, by your criterion Wasim was not express . What about Waqar ?

Personally, I believe, any ball above 145 kph [apart from a half volley ] will cause problems sooner rather than later. A good batsman will survive longer but no one will ever be comfortable.

I just want to add here that this does not detract anything from the skills of a classy medium pacer. That is why I consider Rasel Bangladesh's best opening bowler currently. History is full of them. In recent times, Vaas, Pollock amongst others. In early Pakistan days, the bowling was single handedly carried by Fazal Mahmood. England had Alec Bedser. I am not sure how quick McKenzie or Davidson were. I guess they were quicker.

abu2abu
December 27, 2007, 10:00 AM
Ian, Where would you place Marshall, Holding [ in their heyday ]? I suppose, by your criterion Wasim was not express . What about Waqar ?

Personally, I believe, any ball above 145 kph [apart from a half volley ] will cause problems sooner rather than later. A good batsman will survive longer but no one will ever be comfortable.

I just want to add here that this does not detract anything from the skills of a classy medium pacer. That is why I consider Rasel Bangladesh's best opening bowler currently. History is full of them. In recent times, Vaas, Pollock amongst others. In early Pakistan days, the bowling was single handedly carried by Fazal Mahmood. England had Alec Bedser. I am not sure how quick McKenzie or Davidson were. I guess they were quicker.

i'm afraid i'm no good with metric measurements, but I think most coaches accept that 85 mph+ is fast for international standards. Obviously 90+mph far exceeds that, but the key is consistency.

Imtaiz, i agree with you that medium pacers can be just as effective and swing is as important as speed. However, Pollock probably averaged 80mph in his pomp (probably still does today) and, as I understand it, rasel bowls far slower than that...

al Furqaan
December 27, 2007, 01:34 PM
We shouldn't consider anyone AVERAGING less than at least 140kmph to be a "fast" bowler. We're playing International Cricket now and need sporting, greener wickets to develop "genuine" pacers. If the Lankans can do it, so can we.

Who knows what faster wickets can do for genuine pace prospects like Suman Saha, Shubhashish Roy and Rubel Hossain in 5 years ... :)

sohel, very few bowlers average over 140 k. that list would only include the expressiest of bowlers only.

i think fast is someone who routinely hits 140 + and express someone who hits 145 +

Sohel
December 27, 2007, 05:14 PM
sohel, very few bowlers average over 140 k. that list would only include the expressiest of bowlers only.

i think fast is someone who routinely hits 140 + and express someone who hits 145 +

Yes, 140+ should be "fast" and 145-150+ should be "express", but about the number of "fast" bowlers in International cricket, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree ... :)

I've seen quite a few International bowlers regularly hit 140 on TV although 145 plus is comapratively more rare. Amongst Asian pacers, I've seen Zaheer Khan, RP Singh, Umar Gul and Sohail Tanveer do that with relative ease whereas Malinga, Fernando, Sami and Akhtar do it as a matter of habit. Top three OZ, WI, ENG, SA and NZL bowlers do the same which pretty much leaves us and Zimbabwe out of the picture.

Both Ian Chappell and Gavasker have been talking about reassessing the classifications and I agree with them.

Nafi
December 27, 2007, 08:07 PM
Prediction

it will be three to four years before Bangladesh has a geniune fast bowler who bowls consistantly above 14O Km/h and has the calibur of the likes of brett lee

BangladeshFan
December 27, 2007, 08:49 PM
if 150 kmph is the mark, i think pakistan actually had several in the last decade who crossed it several times. Waqar, Jahid, Shoaib and Sami. Akram never was that quick. Australia has lee and tait from the current crop in that elite. Bond and Steyn will also make into that.

if 145 kmph( or 90 mph) is the mark then loads of guys have done it.