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Arnab
October 20, 2003, 09:49 PM
The Arab Human Development Report 2003 said Arab countries lagged other regions in dissemination of knowledge. Readership of books was relatively limited, education dictated submission rather than critical thought, the Arabic language was in crisis.

OUTDATED UNIVERSITIES

The U.N. report that focused on addressing challenges of modernity illustrated how far the 270 million Arabs lagged behind other regions in 'acquisition of knowledge'.

The report said even a best selling novel sold on average only 5,000 copies compared to hundreds of thousands elsewhere.

In general, the usual print run for novels ranges from a meager 1,000 to 3,000 copies. The number of books published in the Arab world did not exceed 1.1 percent of world production though Arabs constitute 5 percent of the world population.

It cited official educational curricula in Arab countries that " bred submission, obedience, subordination and compliance rather than free critical thinking."

The U.N. also touched on the state of Arab universities, decrying lack of autonomy and the direct control of governments that ran them on political whims. Arab universities were overcrowded with old laboratories and poor libraries. Enrolment figures were a political gesture to appease society more than a product of educational needs. The Arabic language was in crisis, as it confronted the challenges of globalization. No more than 10,000 books were translated into Arabic over the entire millennium, equivalent to the number translated every year into Spanish.

Research and Development in the Arab world did not exceed 0.2 percent of Gross National Product (GNP). Fewer than one in 20 Arab university students were pursuing scientific disciplines, compared to one in five in South Korea.

The number of telephone lines in Arab countries was barely one fifth of that in developed countries.

Access to digital media was also among the lowest in the world. There are 18 computers per 1,000 people compared to a global average of 78. Only 1.6 percent of over 270 million Arabs have internet access, one of the lowest ratios in the world, the report said.

What losers! Even after acquiring so much wealth from selling oil! With due respect, this is what happens from burying your head in the sand for hundreds of years reading one or two "holy" books.


"Iqra!" HAH!

BTW I mean no disrespect. It's just plain ludicrous that some people can be so backward.

[Edited on 21-10-2003 by Arnab]

Sham
October 20, 2003, 10:35 PM
The Arabs are a pathetic bunch. Hypocrites to the core.

Pundit
October 21, 2003, 05:08 PM
:(

[Edited on 21-10-2003 by Pundit]

Tintin
October 21, 2003, 05:41 PM
Are they (Saudi Arabia and Kuwait especially) considered as developed or developing countries ?

Nasif
October 21, 2003, 05:54 PM
"The Arabs are the worst in disbelief and hypocrisy, and the most likely to ignore the laws that GOD has revealed to His messenger. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise."
----------------------------------------------------- Quran 9:97

Zobair
October 21, 2003, 06:11 PM
you beat me to it :)

fab
October 21, 2003, 07:27 PM
come on guys.. if we (South Asians in general) had so much oil do you think we'd be any different?

I don't expect anything from Arabs.. they have proved themselves to be hopeless many times.

Arnab
October 21, 2003, 08:21 PM
Originally posted by fab
come on guys.. if we (South Asians in general) had so much oil do you think we'd be any different?

I don't expect anything from Arabs.. they have proved themselves to be hopeless many times.

You are so right. Excellent observation. The only worthwhile things done in the recent past have been by white people. Not all white people. But a considerable number of them. And I don't see that changing any time soon.

Tehsin
October 21, 2003, 08:44 PM
Should I comment or should I stay away ? decisions decisions...

If you must know, I don't regard them highly and I think they are atleast 200 years behind in most cases and many more on some other matters.

Their contribution to the world ???? Less then 1 % (counting the 0 and all), a little more if you count the oil but then again, it was already there.

fab
October 21, 2003, 09:08 PM
Originally posted by Arnab

You are so right. Excellent observation. The only worthwhile things done in the recent past have been by white people. Not all white people. But a considerable number of them. And I don't see that changing any time soon.

Whites and Orientals I might add (if we must generalise based on race). Sure there are the few token South Asians, Africans and Arabs, but the main driving force behind progress for the past 500 hundred years have been by white people.

I suspect poverty has something to do with our overall apathy.

Arnab
October 21, 2003, 09:56 PM
I suspect poverty has something to do with our overall apathy.

I don't think so. You know, Europeans were poor. So they sought riches. They didn't sit around for eternity and cried "apathy aoathy." They built ships and roamed around the world.

Look around you. EVERYTHING manmade that you see has been invented by the Europeans/Americans and recently by people who finally started following them Japan/Taiwan.

Everything that is worth something in today's world has been invented /improved upon by Europeans. We, the passive, colored people, all live in a matrix created by the innumerous generations of labor by the white people.

fab
October 22, 2003, 12:07 AM
Originally posted by Arnab

I don't think so. You know, Europeans were poor. So they sought riches. They didn't sit around for eternity and cried "apathy aoathy." They built ships and roamed around the world.


Well my other theory is the weather. I think the heat and humidity makes us all apathetic and lethargic.

I mean, can we really sit under apple trees and think about anything at great length in such god awful weather? We'd get bitten by mosquitoes, snakes etc.


Everything that is worth something in today's world has been invented /improved upon by Europeans. We, the passive, colored people, all live in a matrix created by the innumerous generations of labor by the white people.

hmmph.. don't let KKK and similar friends hear that, they'd be over the moon.

BTW, Tehsin, 0 was invented by the Indians and the concept was propagated to Europe via the Arabs.

rafiq
October 22, 2003, 01:09 AM
Interesting discussion.

During the internet boom, one out of every 4 new startups in the silicon valley was Powered by Indians/South Asians.

India and China are the fastest growing major developing economies, set to eclipse European economic output soon and even US output within 50 years if you are to believe forecasts as recent as last week.

Europe is in serious decline and has been for a decade. What white people?

Arnab
October 22, 2003, 01:17 AM
I would take a guess and say that India and China are improving because they are trying to act like white people now.

fab
October 22, 2003, 01:26 AM
Originally posted by rafiq
India and China are the fastest growing major developing economies, set to eclipse European economic output soon and even US output within 50 years if you are to believe forecasts as recent as last week.


Rafiq bhai,
I don't know about Arnab, but I am talking about technological progress. At the moment such progress is being driven by Western countries (I won't say "white" only because you are right it is not exactly true).

Sure India and China are growing economically, this will probably mean sooner or later they'll have money to do R&D. It's also great that the Chinese did 21 revolutions of the Earth a few days ago, but you can hardly call it technological innovation - this was done by other people yonks ago.

I also think my weather theory could be flawed, if you look at the technological progress of the Israelies. Whenever I do any search on the latest journals and articles on Cryptology it seems like the Israeli universities are at the forefront. I've yet to have found anything from an Arab country.

Tehsin
October 22, 2003, 02:16 AM
Once the Arabs took the concept of 0 from the Indian subcontinent and shared it with the world, they thought, that was enought.

Nasif
October 22, 2003, 08:18 AM
Lets not get overboard. Arabs did give a lot to the world. During 600-800AD Arabs were the force to be reckoned with. Here you can read about it
http://www.pbs.org/empires/islam/
and all the scientific innovations talked in here:
http://www.pbs.org/empires/islam/innoalgebra.html

Current Arabs are doomed because of their corrupted religious ideologies and "fatwas" which not supported by Islam at all. Their man made dogmas are plunging them into darkness.

oracle
October 22, 2003, 08:46 AM
Everything that is worth something in today's world has been invented /improved upon by Europeans. We, the passive, colored people, all live in a matrix created by the innumerous generations of labor by the white people.



India and China are the fastest growing major developing economies, set to eclipse European economic output soon and even US output within 50 years if you are to believe forecasts as recent as last week.


I picked up the above 2 qoutes from my fellow members. Ok, i hope you guys hang on in to this thread. First of all let me start:
a) On the first qoute. Yes everything that is "worth" in this world was invented by the europeans. Capitalism was the most important thing that came out of Europe. The other things just fall into place, don't they. All your tech goodies and conveniences seem to fit in, don't they. We can't live without them.
I agree Newton was a european but he was also a god-fearing and a rather superstitious brat not that different from those other oriental magicians dabbling in alchemy. So leave scientists out of "progress" and the paraphernalia of our world. Many scientists don't agree on what is "progress". I am afraid science was truly hijacked the day Newton died.

My point is that our world was built on the backs of millions of peasants,urchins,vagabonds and "white trash", dragged from their rural homes into ghettos called cities. If you need more clarifications pick up Charles Dickens or better still Friedrick Engels "The condition of the English Working Class".
I don't think those wretched souls who had put in their 17 hour day shift would call it "progress".

b)On the second qoute. My comments are same as above just change the color of the labourers to brown or yellow where you see fit, because we in the fortune 500 club really don't care about "Europe", "India" or "Africa". The world belongs to us and the cheaper the production cost the better.

Is'nt it a nice distraction. All this talk of white and brown and yellow people and oh yes the poor arabs. The only way out of this is yet again, and again the one and only Karl Marx,
"Workingmen of all countries, unite! You have nothing to lose but your chains!".
Hey but is'nt he out of fashion? A failed system? :)

rafiq
October 22, 2003, 10:00 AM
oracle if you dismiss what is happening in asian economies as simply a new way to enrich the US or Western corporate elite, then you can surely run for office somewhere but therre have been some tangible benefits to those poor people of color, no? granted that the western concept of "worth" and it's associated cultural values have taken over to an alarming extent.

fab:

one counterpoint: who do you think is doing the R&D in this world? Ok, specifically, the US so that I don't start saying things I know nothing about. Do you know how many white American kids are going into pure sciences, engineering schools, research institutions, graduate research programs in the US? Compared to students descendant particularly from places like India and china?

Without writing a long thesis - only came here to see what the heck our chances are of salvaging the first test - i submit to you that these colored people are the brains behind a growing proportion of the white man's discoveries and advancements today. I don't care if the white man is still making more money than anyone else off these advancements. I thought the original debate was a question of "is the white man superior to the rest of us, browns, arabs, etc". the answer is a categorical no and proven by the fact that the white man has no brains left, we are his brains.

OK that sounds really weird. more later.

[Edited on 22-10-2003 by rafiq]

oracle
October 22, 2003, 10:24 AM
Rafiq- I was'nt dismissing what was happening to asian economies. All I tried to show was that there are other persepectives to interpret reality. There is a marxist persepective which is about capital. Even in China, capital is controlled by a few. Capitalism needed to destroy the last vestiges of rural pre-industrial society(as is happening in China), so that efficient production is possible. This reshaping is taking place, it's called globalisation. The benefits come with the pain. But in Marxist persepective the saga has not ended. Marx's detractors (ever since the fall of the USSR) have pointed out how wrong his predictions were but fail to realize that his analysis was meant to be an ongoing task.
The second persepective is the ecological. The progress, i.e the industrial revolution, which is touted by historians as a great success story could be the makings of the final chapter of humanity. If you step outside of human time frame for a minute then "progress" is truly....

'the best laid schemes o'mice an'men, Gang aft a-gley'. :lol::lol::lol:

[Edited on 22-10-2003 by oracle]

Arnab
October 22, 2003, 12:10 PM
I also think my weather theory could be flawed, if you look at the technological progress of the Israelies.

Yes. Because Israelis are mainly European WHITE jews.

Arnab
October 22, 2003, 12:35 PM
OK let's take OUR country's language and literature for an example.

Our language had NO order. A Portuguese padre back in 1500s wrote our first Grammar book. The second Bengali grammar was also writen by an European.

Our literary culture, like Arab nomads, was mainly oral. It was under British rule that some of us became aware of novels and epic poetry.

Michael Madhusudan Dutta, the first Bangali to write an epic, didn't want to write in Bangla. He wanted to write in French. He actually went to France and married a lady there. He also wrote French poetry which weren't well received. So he came back dejected and wrote his own poetry in his own language. His poetry is STILL unsurpassed. BTW, notice the "Michael" in his name? That shows the desparation of becoming a true European.

Bankimchandra was the first one to write a bengali novel. Where did he get this idea from? Why, his reading of English novels.

Rabindranath is another one who was influenced to the core by readings of European literature. He even wrote sonnets. He singlehandedly brought Bangla Liteature from medieval darkness to the light of 20th century. By writing like europeans.

[Edited on 22-10-2003 by Arnab]

reinausagi
October 22, 2003, 12:50 PM
In practical terms The Arab Human Development Report 2003 describes pre-Ataturk Caliphate Turkey. Those cited in this report are in this situation for diverse reasons. Saudis oppress democracy and learning so they can preserve the throne, Jordan's King who can actually trace his lineage to The Messenger, has the will- but not the money to modernize, Tunisia and Algeria are too busy trying to thwart Iran-style popular take-over by the fundamentalists. ..

fab
October 22, 2003, 08:26 PM
Originally posted by nasif
Current Arabs are doomed because of their corrupted religious ideologies and "fatwas" which not supported by Islam at all. Their man made dogmas are plunging them into darkness.
Yes, which is precisely what was happening to the Christians around a similar timeframe (i.e. middle ages).

The reason why it is such a tragedy now, is because most Arabs are educated are they not? The Christians of the middle ages who were brain washed were illiterate peasants.

Originally posted by rafiq
one counterpoint: who do you think is doing the R&D in this world? Ok, specifically, the US so that I don't start saying things I know nothing about. Do you know how many white American kids are going into pure sciences, engineering schools, research institutions, graduate research programs in the US? Compared to students descendant particularly from places like India and china?
Yes you are right, but my point was who is the DRIVING force behind this? In recent times innovation has been indoctrinated into the Western culture. It is a culture that promotes change, a culture that always seeks to improve on currently used methodologies. Can that be said of Eastern cultures?

Arnab is right when he said that the Japans/Koreans etc are doing well now because they are following the Western culture..

Sure all the brains of all races of the world are being used in their conquest for knowledge. But all these achievements will go down in history as being "Western" achievements. And we all know what "Western" is..


advancements. I thought the original debate was a question of "is the white man superior to the rest of us, browns, arabs, etc". the answer is a categorical no and proven by the fact that the white man has no brains left, we are his brains.

OK that sounds really weird. more later.

Okay - I don't believe in any one being superior. I just feel that during the past 100 years the achievements of the Western society is superior. (That's why most of us are living in Western countries right? :) )

say
October 22, 2003, 11:30 PM
OK.. my confused thoughts..

1) "What losers! Even after acquiring so much wealth from selling oil! "

So does that mean, having a lot of money from mineral riches is supposed to make them less 'backward'? Take two mineral rich countries, Nigeria and United States, they are quite different in your 'backwardness' scale. Aren't they?

2) "I don't expect anything from Arabs.. they have proved themselves to be hopeless many times. "

So have many other nations in the past. If someone made similar observation about the Chinese in the early 20th century - he would sound similarly. But as time passed by, that attitude became irrelevant. So, our observations made in a certain point of time don’t 'prove' any theory.

3) " Everything that is worth something in today's world has been invented /improved upon by Europeans. We, the passive, colored people, all live in a matrix created by the innumerous generations of labor by the white people"

Time-travel back to 13th century and lets assume you are an European. You could say the same thing about the Asians. There are periods in history - when a group of people contributes as if they are the whole world of their time. Civilizations might or might not decline or rise but what else does it prove.

4) "Well my other theory is the weather. I think the heat and humidity makes us all apathetic and lethargic. "

favorite theory of many demographers. But how can we explain the middle ages, when the best and the largest economies of the world were the Chinese and the Indian economies? Weren't these nations hot and humid during that time?

5) "I would take a guess and say that India and China are improving because they are trying to act like white people now. "

So 'acting' like the 'white people' is the formula to improve? This can be a great theory in terms of Developmental Economics :)

6) "Current Arabs are doomed because of their corrupted religious ideologies and "fatwas" which not supported by Islam at all. Their man made dogmas are plunging them into darkness. "

'not supported by Islam' - not sure about this claim. Religion is what the beholders make of it. NO religion has been followed to the full satisfaction of all the followers. Your claim implies that fatwas which are 'correctly' supported by Islam - can be the cure of the problem. Good Luck finding the 'correct' version of any religion! There's always been this quest for the 'correct' version of religion. It remains a quest - and causes many problems for the people who seek beauty in diversity..

7) "A Portuguese padre back in 1500s wrote our first Grammar book."

And they learned what "grammar" is - from us. In the 4th Century BC India Panini started the studies of grammar (of Sanskrit). Frankly, I don't understand what ‘order’ they have brought to our language by introducing grammar. Grammar is merely 'trying' to find formulas in any given language - not putting 'orders’ in them. (That’s why Bangla grammar would be different than English or Chinese for that matter)

8) "Michael Madhusudan Dutta, the first Bengali to write an epic, didn't want to write in Bangla."

There are many other Bengali writers who wrote 'epics' before Michael, Mongol-Kabbo by VorotChandra , poddaboti by Alawol etc. were 'written' before him (and many others)


-------------------------

OK, I am tired – but this is fun nonetheless. Keep it up

Arnab
October 23, 2003, 05:15 AM
So does that mean, having a lot of money from mineral riches is supposed to make them less 'backward'? Take two mineral rich countries, Nigeria and United States, they are quite different in your 'backwardness' scale. Aren't they?

You're deliberately misinterpreting my point.


Time-travel back to 13th century...blah blah

No Cigar. This is NOT about 13 th century. Remember, I said "Today's world."

So 'acting' like the 'white people' is the formula to improve? This can be a great theory in terms of Developmental Economics.

Developmntal Economics? May I then ask, what 'developed' countries are being studied in "Development Economics"? That's right. The white people's countries.

And they learned what "grammar" is - from us. blah blah

Meh. We're not talking Sanskrit here. Bangla.

There are many other Bengali writers who wrote 'epics' before Michael, Mongol-Kabbo by VorotChandra , poddaboti by Alawol etc. were 'written' before him (and many others)

Not too many others. Basically those two. But, you're right. I must have got carried away. But still, in breadth and depth, nothing quite touches "MeghnadbadhKabbo."

[Edited on 23-10-2003 by Arnab]

[Edited on 23-10-2003 by Arnab]

Banglatiger84
October 24, 2003, 08:46 PM
Originally posted by nasif
"The Arabs are the worst in disbelief and hypocrisy, and the most likely to ignore the laws that GOD has revealed to His messenger. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise."
----------------------------------------------------- Quran 9:97

just want to clarify a small thing,
this verse refers to Bedouins during the time of the Prophet (pbuh), not "Arabs" as we know now. There is a difference in the spelling if u notice.

That said, Arabs are definitely backward because of their complacency, hypocrisy, and conviction that they are better Muslims by virtue of their language alone.

However, one thing absent in Gulf arab societies is crimes of the sort given here

http://www.thedailystar.net/2003/10/25/d31025011717.htm

I never heard of Arab criminals cutting someone to 18 pieces for being a police informant, at least not in the Gulf area.

all I want to say is that all races have faults and virtues, its just that some have more faults than qualities.

nilegirl88
November 17, 2004, 08:41 PM
omg guys i just wanna say you ppl can't just say all dat [edit] about arabs. im an arab, i luv da way i am and i find it real rude how u guys just pop [edit] about us lyke dat. i agree dat not all arabs r good but who did u meet so all of u say dat about them????

Edited on, November 18, 2004, 1:45 AM GMT, by chinaman.

Rubu
November 17, 2004, 10:40 PM
wow! when does this thread was born and came that far? never noticed coming here so often. nilegirl, surprised to see an arab girl here. how did u get directed to this forum?

as i can see, you are pissed and i can see the reason too, an apology to you if we harted your feeling. still, i'm interested to know about your vision of the problem. what is the reason arab world is lagging so behind in today's world who once, used to lead? once you don't have the worry of money, its much easier than other to go up with technology and staff. but in reality, this part lacks in those field from many poor countries. anything good u see around u (guessing that u live in a arab country) is built by someone else and charged u 10 times more for it than usual. why? and why?