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Zunaid
June 28, 2008, 09:59 AM
Within a year of assuming the stewardship of the National team, Jamie Siddons appears to have polarized the fans like almost no one before. Mohsin Kamal did not split the fans – they universally detested him. Richard McInnes had his early off days when many could not see the utility of his new-fangled coaching ways but soon won over even his worst detractors. Of late only Alok Kapali and Rubu can compare. But that is a different show, different channel.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
I came across some very interesting posts relating to JS in another thread and I believe the discussion deserves a thread of its own. I am going to extract those posts and bring them here.

Pundit
June 28, 2008, 08:52 PM
Now Sid needs to amend his moronic "team rules" and "processing 240s", TEACH OUR BATSMEN HOW TO PLAY HIGH PERCENTAGE STROKES ALONG THE GROUND AND FIND GAPS, bring the Big Z and Dhiman back and allow them to play their natural game.

Why do you call it moronic - maybe a publicized target that in concept is reachable helps lay the foundation of a good stable innings.

Siddons is training the batsmen for 240, the difference between the 240 and the final score is a reflection of the batsmen's grit and focus of the day.

I am saddened that you have joined the bandwagon of crazy bashers who infest BC more than they ought to.

You certainly don't sound like a surfer dude sometimes.

Sohel
June 29, 2008, 07:02 AM
Why do you call it moronic - maybe a publicized target that in concept is reachable helps lay the foundation of a good stable innings.

Siddons is training the batsmen for 240, the difference between the 240 and the final score is a reflection of the batsmen's grit and focus of the day.

I am saddened that you have joined the bandwagon of crazy bashers who infest BC more than they ought to.

You certainly don't sound like a surfer dude sometimes.

Pundit,

I like you and respect what you have to say, inspite of the unpleasant way you do it on occasion. So, I felt I needed to clarify my position to you the best way I could. The result, sadly, is this Vlad Mamu-esque post. Apologies in advance.

Things may not always be as they appear my brother. What you consider a “bandwagon” may actually be a gathering of legitimate opinions different than your own in the matter. Those opinions can come from a real Cricket giant like Ian Chappell who throughout the pre, mid and post game show in Star Cricket yesterday took potshots at Sid’s “team rules” as something absurd and amusing, or it could be my nephew Mugdho who lives in the immediate moment, doesn’t care too much about consequences, and just wants to see 4s and 6s. Mugdho is 8 years old.

You can see what you want to see in what other people have to say and make it all about your own POV, or, you can assess some of those opinions according to their own merit. You can either hear what you want to hear in light of your own unique experiences, or you may try and understand the same thing the way the author him or herself understands it or wants it understood.

The choice is always yours.

I can only speak for myself, so here it goes.

For me, good batting means “playing each ball according to its merit while being fully aware of the match situation.”

Choosing to play low percentage shots irrespective of match situation, or not paying attentions to footwork, back-lift and other fundamentals of batting or both, tend to make you overly generous to the opposition and pretty much eliminate your chances to compete in a competitive sport.

Now that’s bad batting because by playing those low percentage shots, or getting trapped and caught with your pants down or both, cannot constitute “playing each ball according to its merit while being fully aware of the match situation.”

Doing the opposite, meaning blocking bad deliveries, half-volleys and full-tosses and showing absolutely no interest finding the gaps or rotating the strike, all in the name of “staying in the middle” is also bad batting leading to the same ugly outcome.

Md. Al Shahariar Rokon and Javed Omar Belim Golla are two very different batsmen who despite the differences in their mindset, style and approach towards batting, have created the sort of undue pressure the rest of their team simply could not bear and still manage to compete.

There are other, perhaps better examples but I hope you know what I’m talking about.

Our young batsmen tend to be aggressive, often disinterested in good footwork, grip, back-lift and other basics, and lost enough in the rush of their mysterious compulsions and impulses to consistently black themselves out of match situations.

Sid, in order to address the destructive pattern, instituted “team rules” and “match goals”. Fine.

Sadly, something got lost in the translation and put our players in two minds with results far below our perhaps inflated expectations after the ODI World Cup of 2007. Zunaed Siddiqui, Aftab Ahmed, Dhiman Ghosh and even Md. Ashraful Matin, all young and gifted stroke-players despite their issues, handed their cojones to Sid, perhaps to be pickled for posterity, and became Gollafied.

The buck-wildin’ Gangsta Tamim Iqbal Khan on the other hand, decided to quit whatever he was on during the T20I World Championships, and learn to harness his God-gifted hand-eye coordination and become more of an orthodox batsman in the NCL, months before Sid arrived in the picture, by applying the fundamentals he has learned in the middle.

Sid’s abilities as a batting coach made him even better and he stands alone in a group where his teammates, by trying to follow the “team rule” of holding on to one’s wicket NO MATTER WHAT, simply robbed their team the chance to compete whenever they succeed in being what they are not. The fetish of improving their pitiful batting averages or scoring in “double figures” became more important than the fundamental purpose of representing your country at the highest level of a COMPETITIVE TEAM SPORT while the world was watching.

Md. Ashraful Matin has always been fond of playing low percentage aerial shots, but he also had the ability to play wonderfully middled high percentage drives along the ground and in the V. Since “team rules” those shots have pretty much disappeared. Instead, we see him just lose it from time to time after blocking half-volleys and full-tosses, and then try to dangerously late-cut deliveries that could be driven safely hoping the inside edge misses the stumps! Then there’s the lofted sitter to mid-on and the heartbreaking yet infuriating sight of our dejected Captain walking back to the dressing room, shaking his head at another missed opportunity.

But that’s A-OK because he has been scoring in “double figures” with a few match-killing 50s against the Top 8, and a match-winning 100 against the worst associate side I’ve seen in 10 years. When you’re not playing to win, complacency sets in, and some find success in personal achievement according to Big Brother.

Those who don’t or simply can’t be what they’re not, guys like Zunaed Siddiqui and Dhiman Ghosh, get demoted to the A Team after getting just a handful of chances. This pattern of punishing the wild Mustang simply because he can't quite hack it as a donkey, is dangerous and will get us nowhere.

Far worse than that, “the will to compete” in a sport that is after all a competitive one, is gone from their collective body, mind and spirit as a team. Scoring 200 or 240 has became more important than competing. A sort of quasi-nihilistic defeatism enshrouds the team with Jean Paul Sartre’s cross-eyed ghost brooding on from the depths of nothingness.

Shakib Al Hasan and Alok Kapali have been the sole exceptions during their magnificent knocks against Top 8 giants Pakistan and India respectively. Their free flowing improvisations on those “team rules” not only gave their team the theoretically probable chance to win, but also went far beyond the “team goal” in terms of runs.

The unorthodox Shakib possibly benefited from Sid’s real expertise, but Alok simply delivered the class we have witnessed first hand in domestic cricket since the 2006 season of the NCL at the highest level, after hopefully managing to chase away the purely psychological demons that have haunted him most of his International career.

Now no matter how Sid may try and spin his way into the maverick successes of Shakib and Alok, he continues to be on the defensive followed by one PR disaster after another.

By skewing actual facts from our past to suit his way of thinking – those not in agreement with that way simply being people who “know nothing about cricket” -- and on occasion being downright wrong about those facts, he ended up belittling the few achievements we have had, and playing with our intelligence and passion in an unacceptable manner. So the gloves came off and it got ugly.

Not very good cricket overall.

I for one, simply want him to succeed, and in order to succeed, he must overcome his denial of what went wrong and why, and how to set things right and move forward.

According to Ian Chappell, a coach needs to correctly assess the natural abilities of a batsman, help him harness and balance that talent in terms time-tested cricketing technique and wisdom, and motivate him to apply that balance in the middle so that he can help his team compete and win.

According to him, killing, rather than harnessing and developing the natural instincts of a player is not only counterproductive and absurd, but also akin to killing the spirit of the sport itself. Playing not to compete and win but simply to a meet some other, ultimately negative goal infuriated him enough to provoke bitter humor throughout the course of the match. He praised Alok because he “threw team rules out the window.”

Ian Chappell wants good batting just like most of us cricket fans.

In order to do that, Sid needs to clearly understand that besides the footwork, grip, back-lift and other technical issues, he needs to: -

> Teach our aggressive players how to 1) find the gaps and rotate the strike to keep pressure on the opposition, and 2) play high percentage strokes along the ground.

> Show his disapproval of bad blocks, gifted dot balls, and finding the fielder as passionately as his disapproval of playing low percentage aerial shots irrespective of the match situation. They need a balanced enhancement of what they are, not the sad caricature of what they cannot be without damaging themselves and their career.

> Pay attention to statistical details and facts of our past as they are. Instead of belittling our rare achievements as a test playing nation and killing the fire inside our young cricketers in the process, Sid needs to use those rarities to light the brighter fire that can take us to the next level.

These are basic things he needs to work into his system if he wants to succeed here in Bangladesh. While he’s at it, having a specialized and dedicated bowling coach by his side, not to mention a few more specialized bowlers such as Syed Rasel will also help quite a bit.

Sorry about the long post, but I’m certain that if you choose to have the time and do me the honor of putting yourself though it all, my position may actually become a bit clearer to you. I honestly don't see my position simply as jumping on a bandwagon, basking in the company of a lynch-mob looking for a new National Coach without granting Sid ample time to get real, learn from his errors, and succeed.

I try hard not to play such bad cricket, but at the end of the day, I'm a much better ice-hockey player who can surf a bit.

Peace … :)

Zunaid
June 29, 2008, 12:03 PM
I copied over two posts from Pundit/Sohel NR that prompted me to start this thread.

Zunaid
June 29, 2008, 12:14 PM
Something from this 2004 BanglaCricket article of mine seems is pertinent:

Resetting Expectations (http://www.banglacricket.com/alochona/../html/article.php?item=170) - Zunaid Kazi (16th April, 2004)


Reality Check
Perhaps a reality check is in order. Especially since we, the Bangladeshi fans, are very volatile and wont to extremes of emotions. Any unexpected failure and the lynch mob will be out in force. We will find a scapegoat and hound him out of the team. What really strikes fear into my aging heart is that our erudite and well-informed-of-cricket-matters press might even launch an oust Dav Whatmore campaign. Given our past history, this is not necessarily an inconceivable scenario. We have a tendency to pillory our coaches or change them like dirty underwear at the slightest hint of failure, whether justified or not <sup>9 (http://www.banglacricket.com/alochona/../html/article.php?item=170#link9)</sup>. Remember the ouster of Gordon Greenidge? Recall the McInnes brouhaha? <sup>10 (http://www.banglacricket.com/alochona/../html/article.php?item=170#link10)</sup>. Perhaps Whatmore is made of sterner stuff. He did, after all, last a while under the shambolic and politicized cricket administration in Sri Lanka which is not unlike that of ours. I would, however, not like to take that chance. Whatmore is the right man for the job. Using a business school analogy, Whatmore is like a CEO of a startup and his job will be done when he can hand over the reigns of the company to a financible CEO. But, that is another story, another article. Movie at 10.

And I am planning to take the CEO analogy further wrt to Siddons.

arafath79
June 29, 2008, 12:23 PM
First of all I would like to give many thanks to Jamie Siddons for making Tamim Iqbal a good opening batsman who can play some good strokes and also stay at the wicket.The Jamie Siddons effect is quite clear to me, under his coaching Bangladesh achieved their second and third highest scores, one was against UAE and another one was against India in the Asia cup 2008. We should give Jamie Siddons more time to see Bd started winning against the big guns consistently.

I just like to see Siddons is working a bit more harder than he is working with the batsmen at the moment. He should not go for a holiday in AUS more often. When Bd has no international matches he better arrange practice session for the national team players and U-19 betsmen to improve their batting technique and skills.

We need a genuine fast bowling coach soon for the national team.

WarWolf
June 29, 2008, 12:38 PM
I think this guy knows what he is doing. He is a opposite type of character to Dav.

I think a good comparison between them is well deserved. This will show us their thinking processes to achieve the goals. Though both of them are from Australia, they differ with each other in almost every single aspect.

Dav played for national team while Siddons never got the chance. Though he is considered to be in the list of top 50 ever batsmen in some people's opinion.
The best feature of Dav is his inspiration capability. He can some times do wonder by inspiring even a very young team. We have seen the example a few times indeed. But if you work with a single team this way you can achieve wins time to time but never can expect stability in the team in terms of performance. On the other hand, Siddons relies on the hard facts of statistics which shows the capabilities of a player. If you can show you can score runs in at least any form of the game you are in the team. Not a bad idea at all.
Dav was really moody type. This was the biggest complaints from the journalists. On the contrary, Siddons some times seem to be too easy going with the team and the press.
Siddons wants the team to perform at least moderately every game. If this continues then wins would start to come frequently. On the other hand, Dav wanted wins some games and could allow flat performances other days.
Dav didn't work with individual players to fix their problem. We saw same player doing the same mistake over and over again during his tenure. Siddons seems to work with each of them. We saw Tamim becoming a consistent batsman under his supervision. Ash seems to settle down. Kapali the burnt out boy showed wonder yesterday.Overall rating cannot be done yet. Still he seems to be a good professional coach IMO whom BD really needs at the moment.

cricket_dorshok
June 29, 2008, 12:50 PM
JS is doing a very good job. I am happy seeing the improvement/discipline in our batting. Being a batting specialist and never being a head coach, he needs a little time to manage the other areas (bowling and fielding). Well, we always had our major concern in batting. Thats why, we haven't focused that much on bowling. Retirement of Rafiq and Rasel's injury did not help us either. Hopefully, after re-inclusion of Sakib and Rasel will fix the problem mostly.

samjad
June 29, 2008, 12:51 PM
Sohel Bhai, Ian Chappell might want to see a good batting from bangladesh. But today if our boys were out within 170 runs Ian Chappell will be the first one to critisise our inclusion in the test world.
Don't listen to thease trigger happy commentators who even don't know the names of the players or their history. So I would say he doesn't even deserve to comment on how that team should be running by it's coach. It's so easy for him to comment and make fun of Siddons Team rulez, as he would be the one to question siddons if BD made a low score.

We BD fans know how our team played before, how they used to throw their wickets away for the sake of their natural stroke plays. All siddon did was to put a leash on that, and see what happens? We get 3 centuries in nearly 3 months. How long was it between 1st and 2nd century or between 2nd and 3rd ?

I am sure 240 total is a target they have to get at least, so players are more careful and that brings more than 240. Soon the target will go up and up, and one day every game they play Siddons will ask for 280 to 300 runs. By the trend of our boys learning curve I think it won't be that far away.

SO please lets support him for another year and see where he takes us, at least he is showing some improvement. So ignore the comments from the commentators who even don't know Bangladeshi players that well or are the one to critisise everyway possible.

Pundit
June 29, 2008, 12:55 PM
Moderators, may I please request that my name does not show up as the opener of this thread.

Thanks.

Pundit
June 29, 2008, 01:01 PM
Sohel - I think you have too much time in your hand. Especially considering that you are a 40 year older.

And as such, especially considering that you have lived in so many places, one hopes to learn more about professionalism from you.

JS may be wrong or may be right. But what we see from many is the tendency to get overwhelmed with what appears to them all of a sudden as the "correct" interpretation.

The start is always the most difficult - and one is defined by how he/she endures that adversity. That is what professionalism is - belief in the assigned leader and excericise of application to muster techniques.

Anyway, I just wanted to lecture you (yes - you), and not get dragged into another quicksand discussion (wait till Banfan shows up).

Please grow up Surfer dude bhai.

RazabQ
June 29, 2008, 01:35 PM
So my 3.7 year old is still formulating his world/life views. I try and give him the full explanation for most things but sometimes that stuff is just beyond him. E.g. he roughly understands digestive system (food goes into tummy, tummy works on it to give me energy, muscle/bone, and poopie). But trying to explain what's a balanced diet is bit much for him. So we have developed some arbitrary rules for him. He must have at least half a glass of milk/juice with every meal. He must have two pieces of meat with his rice. We find that at this stage of development it's easier to do this - easier for him to follow along as well. I'm sure once he's a little further developed he'll understand the need for hydration, fiber, carbs, etc.

Look at the the relative experience of our team, the immaturity of our cricket culture and the emerging nature of our infrastructure. Perhaps JS is just a good parent?

al Furqaan
June 29, 2008, 01:42 PM
top posts from from sohel and razabQ.

illustrating that this is another of tose ambigious controversies. its like the health care debate. both sides have merit. free subsidized health care for all is good because everyone gets it. its bad because quality of service necessarily drops, unless you're ultra rich. both sides have merit, both sides lack other merits.

which means, we'll just have to wait and see if Siddons' regime vindicates itself.

i had been oppossed to this "killing of competitiveness" myself, but have been saying for long, lets give siddons till New Year 2009 to judge.

it may very well be that bangladesh becomes a team which scores 250+ every third innings by that time. it certainly feels that way right now.

Miraz
June 29, 2008, 01:47 PM
One good innings does not make a good batsman and one fairly good match does not make anyone a good coach.

He seems to have some positive influence on batting, but still appears clueless in overall (which includes fielding, bowling and most importantly winning mentality) management/coaching of the game.

Rifat
June 29, 2008, 01:53 PM
Overall rating cannot be done yet.


WarWolf, this is the main reason, i stay away from "Siddons Discussions", i feel we need more concrete data to really know what he is doing...patience is key, especially with a team who are really young and don't have as quality cricket experience as much as the other teams.


i will personally evaluate him at the beginning of next year, inshallah. By then, if it seems like we havn't gone anywhere... then i don't know what to comment, because the best positive improvement under his regime is that we are producing 200+ scores consistently and some batsmen are "coming of age" (in the cricket sense, of course ;)) at a very early age, which is wonderful to watch. because normally, prime time for a cricketer is his late 20s... now we have moved on to the twenty first century where life is fast paced and players retire in their mid thirties nowadays.

Rifat
June 29, 2008, 01:57 PM
One good innings does not make a good batsman and one fairly good match does not make anyone a good coach.

He seems to have some positive influence on batting, but still appears clueless in overall (which includes fielding, bowling and most importantly winning mentality) management/coaching of the game.

the inspiration and fielding "factor" from Dav whatmore seems to be missing!(hopefully, it will really show it from now on inshallah) i loved Whatmore because he is the Jim Calhoun(UCONN Basketball coach) of Cricket, he knows how to built the rght team(note: no rasel.)

al Furqaan
June 29, 2008, 02:36 PM
One good innings does not make a good batsman and one fairly good match does not make anyone a good coach.

He seems to have some positive influence on batting, but still appears clueless in overall (which includes fielding, bowling and most importantly winning mentality) management/coaching of the game.

DW was similarily uni dimensional. he was a great psychologist but not a good technician.

BD-Shardul
June 29, 2008, 02:44 PM
First of all, thanks for this timely thread.


At the moment I prefer to remain patient and silent for the next couple of months, but my sixth sense is telling me that this Team Rule is guiding us in the right direction.


Also I believe that some people just misunderstand the Team Rule. No doubt that Jamie’s Team Rule emphasizes a lot to hold on to wicket, but at the same time it never tells our batsmen not to play shots of bad deliveries. Since our batsmen are still getting used to the Team Rule, our batsmen, especially captain Mohammad Ashraful, remain a bit tense about their wicket when they are out there in the crease, out of which they sometimes act overcautiously and end up blocking some bad deliveries. However, I sincerely believe that if Jamie’s students stick to what there Guru says, with the passage of time they will overcome this anxiety they suffer because of being cautious and things will be normal.

As for the greatest positive of Jamie effect, I would say it is the increasing stability of our top order and middle order. At least we are trying to get rid of situations like 85-5 after 33 overs. If the top order/middle order collapses, the only thing lower order can do is to survive the full quota. If the top order can build a base, even if it is done slowly, which may seem ugly to some people, the lower order gets the chance to slog.

Oroginally Posted by Dr. Z
Within a year of assuming the stewardship of the National team, Jamie Siddons appears to have polarized the fans like almost no one before.

Dr. Z,

You couldn’t be right more. I have been following BC since 2005 (although registered later), but I have never seen BC polarized over an issue such an extent. Polarization is not bad as long as the generosity exists there. But soon after the generosity vapors, the polarization leads people towards nothing but hostility. No generosity means no tolerance and respect towards others opinion, no generosity means no concession, and no generosity means continuing to defend your opinion even if the reality and fact goes other way round. In the process you become a sort of self-proclaimed “Sob-Janta”.

A noticeable trend of BC forum is the stubbornness of some BCites, which might be attributed to the lack of generosity. And it reached supreme during the Asia Cup. Whether it is out of genuine anger and frustration towards Jamie or to justify what they have already uttered against Jamie, some in the forum wanted BD to do bad in the field. Granted that I am a bad reader and a bad interpreter of the posts (although no one can claim to be a perfect interpreter since no one knows the intention of people except for God), but this time I am not alone. Many others noticed it.


If a list of Kapali basher is made, I will top second right after Rubu bhai. Yet after Kapali scored the ton, I praised to the best way I can. National team after all is the pace for the performers.

If Guru Siddon’s Team Rule succeeds and our beloved Bangladesh become more consistent in the next few months, I will be happy and I promise not to tease anti-Siddons of the time. If it goes other way round, I will graciously admit that me perception about the team rule was wrong.

Sincerely, Bangladesh-Shardul


Post of the thread

Originally Posted by PunditAnd as such, especially considering that you have lived in so many places, one hopes to learn more about professionalism from you.

JS may be wrong or may be right. But what we see from many is the tendency to get overwhelmed with what appears to them all of a sudden as the "correct" interpretation.

The start is always the most difficult - and one is defined by how he/she endures that adversity. That is what professionalism is - belief in the assigned leader and excericise of application to muster techniques.

BANFAN
June 29, 2008, 02:44 PM
Can someone please relate Alex's innings with the JS 'batting rules' please?

Alex wasn't even in the team, he just joined the team at the last moment. He hardly got any real practice session with JS in comparison to others. while others tried to follow the rules, or was duelling in confusions, Alex just took it in his hand because it was question of his survival and I credit him and his heroics for the innings. Lets push all of them toward the threat of extinct; I'm sure many of them will produce gems; if that's the strategy, it's fine. Which of JS strategy is working; could we relate that?

I came across a number of dumb / Asole bosses, who are well reputed within the org for that. So the subs just do the right thing at the crucial moment violating all instruction, if things are good, the SL dumb will score all the credits and if by chance that goes wrong, will go back to his dumb instruction and fire the sub. Violating the boss and achieving the best, is never a healthy trend in any team. Run the risk of catastrophic collapse anytime and might struggle to perform as a unit in the long run.

Some similar things are happening around our team. We seem to ignore the vital mistakes of batting first, not including bowlers according to pitch condition, decline in bowling, decline in fielding, decline in motivation, losses after losses etc etc.

Have we forgotten that, this (Shommanjonok Porajoy) was just the normal transformation of the team which was expected on a regular basis after WC 07?

I am not suggesting that JS should be thrown out etc etc, neither I like to extend a blind support. One must be able to relate to the policies with the output, I still can't relate JS policies with yesterday's positives. And one positive doesn't eliminate 10 negatives. That's my opinion. (I don't expect Pundit to agree) :)

Sohel
June 29, 2008, 03:42 PM
Sohel - I think you have too much time in your hand. Especially considering that you are a 40 year older.

And as such, especially considering that you have lived in so many places, one hopes to learn more about professionalism from you.

JS may be wrong or may be right. But what we see from many is the tendency to get overwhelmed with what appears to them all of a sudden as the "correct" interpretation.

The start is always the most difficult - and one is defined by how he/she endures that adversity. That is what professionalism is - belief in the assigned leader and excericise of application to muster techniques.

Anyway, I just wanted to lecture you (yes - you), and not get dragged into another quicksand discussion (wait till Banfan shows up).

Please grow up Surfer dude bhai.

Thank you for enlightening a total loser like me after reading my long post as carefully as you obviously have, and don't forget to have a great life ... :)

Blah
June 29, 2008, 04:27 PM
Have we forgotten that, this (Shommanjonok Porajoy) was just the normal transformation of the team which was expected on a regular basis after WC 07?



Eh!?

Maybe the fact that your expectation is very unrealistic?

Have we forgotten that, we lost to Ireland during the world cup by 74 runs (http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/wc2007/engine/match/247498.html)?
Lost to NZ by 9 wicket (http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/wc2007/engine/match/247487.html)?
Lost to Srilanka by 198 runs (http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/wc2007/engine/match/247472.html)?
Lost to Australia by 10 wickets (http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/wc2007/engine/match/247485.html)?
Lost to WI by 99 runs (http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/wc2007/engine/match/247502.html)?

All this Shommanjonok Porajoy, was achieved during the WC.

What gave you the expectation/impression that after the WC Shommanjonok Porajoy was the normal transformation?

AsifTheManRahman
June 29, 2008, 04:45 PM
Siddons certainly has a plan and being the former assistant coach of the world champs that he is, he obviously has the right qualifications for his current occupation. I agree with those who prefer to grade him at the end of his tenure, however, one can't say that he hasn't and isn't making costly mistakes. How would you explain Rasel's exclusion, opening the bowling with Reza or picking Dollar in the XI?

Eshen
June 29, 2008, 06:54 PM
I have no complain against Siddons as a batting coach, the problem is that he is screwing us up in other departments.

djnaved
June 29, 2008, 09:23 PM
One good innings does not make a good batsman and one fairly good match does not make anyone a good coach.

He seems to have some positive influence on batting, but still appears clueless in overall (which includes fielding, bowling and most importantly winning mentality) management/coaching of the game.

spot on, during whatmore era bowling and fielding was improved, and the confidenst level was so high, fielding was international level.. now JS era, batting is improving because of tamim, rakib, mahmudullah, and sakib...this four are consistent performers, ash is trying to be consistent, lets see what happens........bowling department is simply going down, even UAE scored 200+ runs against our bowling....fielding is also going down.............whatmorer shomoy duita deparmente shobshomoy click korchilo...tin nombor department jokhon click korsilo, tokhon amra match jitsi........JS shomoy ekhon ekta department kaj korche....r baki duita down.........cricket hoilo emon ekta game jekhane tin ta departmentei click korte hoi jetar jonno.........

nsd3
June 29, 2008, 09:23 PM
Can someone please relate Alex's innings with the JS 'batting rules' please?

One must be able to relate to the policies with the output, I still can't relate JS policies with yesterday's positives.
This might shed some light to your query: Kapali said -
"I planned my innings and followed the team rule. I knew that if I was there after 40 overs then I could play those big shots and that's why I started off playing as straight as possible and with low-risk shots"

http://www.bdnews24.com/details.php?id=56317&cid=5

Abd_Bakri
June 30, 2008, 12:13 AM
hmmm thanks to zunaid for opening a thread like this! i love to talk about this issue everytime it is brought up! if anyone has followed my posts in BC it is pretty clear that i was a huge fan of whatmore and i dearly miss him! Anyhow reality is now we dont have whatmore handling our team and we have a great aussie ex-first class batsman Jamie Siddons (JS)....
Now when i heard we were looking for coaches before the WC07 i really hoped if whatmore had been gone woolmer couldve come in... no matter how much bcb would have had to pay if woolmer wanted to come he shouldve come... hes the best coach of all time.... but he was gone ... and i thought the best alternative we had was moody... but he didnt agree either.... but then i felt why not the ex u-19 coach mcinnes... he left on a high note... and we heard he was in a way confirmed to be the coach.... only some financial matters broke the deal... then we had siddons... i didnt know much about him... but i guess miraz gave us some infos about him in the head coach hunting thread... his career records as a batsman is superb no doubt... but i didnt know did he have a great coaching career or not... still he came in.. and since he has arrived i have been telling myself that one day he might give me a reason to like him... but sad he never did... as a head coach he has definately failed... why ? lets examine...
a head coach is like the leader... c.e.o.... he has other managers of other depts. helping him out..... like a fielding bowling batting coach and trainers and etc.... so the head coach has to give the authority to each of the coaches to conduct the trainning and practise session as they want to... but the head coach has to keep an eye on everything and make strategies... he has to make the strategic decisions.... he has to lead the way and inspire..... he has to make sure everyone gets the message across clearly... and also he has to ensure that everyone has the hunger to win....!
JS sadly hasnt done anything as such... he has improved tamim's batting for sure... and might have helped some batsman score some runs consistenly... you have to thank him for that... but over all he has been horrible... stratically he has made so many blunders...!!!
you cant set a fixed team rule for every match... the simple rule is you have to take the conditions, the match situation, the batting strength, and the merit of the ball into account and play the ball... i really dont like this team rule thing...!
JS made the biggest mistake of making a terrible change... replacing rasel with mediocore bowlers like reza and dollar.... i remember in one interview he reasoned that rasel doesnt have enough pace... if thats the case is reza and dollar that daim fast... dont think so.... you see you dont have to have pace to be great bowler... mcgrath vaas never had that amount of pace like akhter or lee... but still they were great with their bowling... because they bowled in the right channel in the right line and length... and thus they were hard to get away... what rasel did was the same... he bowled in the same line and length consistently... he blocked the runs from one end... and on the other end we had mash who bowled aggressively and the batsman in frustration tried something different and wickets fell.. so rasel necessarily doesnt have to be a wicket taking bowler but he is definately a bowler who helps others pick up wicket...! so i highly would suggest to get a bowling coach and fix the bowling problem...!
the fielding has never been this bad.... it is terrible to see the downfall... i mean in wc07 we were one of the best fielding outfit... some strong critics said that we were better then india pakistan or even possibly sri lanka... but now it is below par... i dont know what exactly has happened to the same outfit... why has the fielding fallen... the fielding coach has been the same... i wonder then why the drop in quality... praully siddons isnt giving much attention to this fact....!
now comes the most important part of a head coach... believing in your team and inspiring them to achieve great stuffs... for that you have to aim high... you have to aim high and have to make sure that your team members work hard to achieve those high aims set by you... you have to inspire them to do good to achieve those high goals.... for that you might have to be soft at times and make them understand... and if they dont understand then take strong tough actions.... ! this has been missing big time from JS... ! from the moment he stepped into bd... he said bd doesnt have the ability to win any games...! gosh why would you say that... that severly demoralizes a team... if you go into a team you are supposed to inspire... but what did he do... he looked down upon every player... he gave every player the feel that you guys are worthless and you cant play....! it was quite contrary to what whatmore made them feel... whatmore set them a specific target... that is win... try to win... and he made players feel that you guys are as much capable of winning as the indians or pakis or sri lankans... i remember reading an article where whatmore (in WI) gave that clear msg to players.... but siddons is very negetive... this outlook hasnt done any good to our team... thats why when we see out team playing now a days... they look severly negetive... they seem that they have lost the game even before it started... they have lost the hunger for winning...! this is all due to the fact that siddons has been terribly negative...!
thus i conclude by saying.... he might be a good batting coach... but he certainly doesnt have the quality of a head coach... we need some positive handling our team... so basically now bcb should do IMO is keep siddons as a batting coach... bring in a bowling coach who could be a head coach... !and give enough authority to our fielding coach to carry on his practise methods so that team can go back to the fielding form they had till WC07!
thanks for reading the post...!

BANFAN
June 30, 2008, 12:31 AM
This might shed some light to your query: Kapali said -
"I planned my innings and followed the team rule. I knew that if I was there after 40 overs then I could play those big shots and that's why I started off playing as straight as possible and with low-risk shots"

http://www.bdnews24.com/details.php?id=56317&cid=5

This is exactly what I said in my previous post:

Things did start changing for the better in 2007 and Kapali attributes that to himself.

"I identified the weaknesses in my batting myself. There were slight changes I had to make technically. Earlier I went across too much early on and that brought about my downfall often. I practiced playing with a straight bat and I made runs in the National Championship and the Dhaka Premier League this season," said Kapali.

Generally I have no disagreement on 'He might be more useful as a batting coach'. Good and intelligent players like SN, AA, Ash are still strugling for their form under JS. JS has taken some steps which will take time to have vissible improvement, we will see if JS is doing the right things. Hope he is

We shouldn't misunderstand Alex's generosity. He is much more matured now to understand that, he can't survive in the team speaking against it's rules. He is also likely to have bad days, but it's always the way you are able to play & score. That's common sense all over the cricketing world.

:)

Murad
June 30, 2008, 12:35 AM
Focus on what he did instead of what he said.

Generally I have no disagreement on 'He might be more useful as a batting coach'. Good and intelligent players like SN, AA, Ash are still strugling for their form under JS. JS has taken some steps which it will take time to improve, we will see if JS is doing the right things. Hope he is

But we shouldn't misunderstand Alex's generosity.

:)

Kapali, however, attributed the turn-around in his fortunes to himself. "I identified the weaknesses in my batting myself. There were slight changes I had to make technically," he said. "Earlier I went across too much early on and that brought about my downfall often. I practised playing with a straight bat and made runs in the National Championship and the Dhaka Premier League this season."

http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/asiacup/content/current/story/358640.html

bujhee kom
June 30, 2008, 12:36 AM
i like this effect!

pappiok
June 30, 2008, 12:45 AM
i honestly think under JS tamim has learn lot.

samircreep
June 30, 2008, 01:34 AM
So my 3.7 year old is still formulating his world/life views. I try and give him the full explanation for most things but sometimes that stuff is just beyond him. E.g. he roughly understands digestive system (food goes into tummy, tummy works on it to give me energy, muscle/bone, and poopie). But trying to explain what's a balanced diet is bit much for him. So we have developed some arbitrary rules for him. He must have at least half a glass of milk/juice with every meal. He must have two pieces of meat with his rice. We find that at this stage of development it's easier to do this - easier for him to follow along as well. I'm sure once he's a little further developed he'll understand the need for hydration, fiber, carbs, etc.

Look at the the relative experience of our team, the immaturity of our cricket culture and the emerging nature of our infrastructure. Perhaps JS is just a good parent?

hahaha great analogy although I wouldnt say team rules is as arbitrary as u make them sound like, although our batters are maybe just a wee bit younger than your three year old:-p

MohammedC
June 30, 2008, 03:02 AM
Team Rule for batting is worked so far but we are getting let down on bowling and fielding. JS must do something ASAP. Rumesh Rathnayke must get involved with the main team bowlers.

I sometime wonder whether JS is stopping Rumesh Rathnayke coming in to the main team.

Sohel
June 30, 2008, 03:24 AM
So my 3.7 year old is still formulating his world/life views. I try and give him the full explanation for most things but sometimes that stuff is just beyond him. E.g. he roughly understands digestive system (food goes into tummy, tummy works on it to give me energy, muscle/bone, and poopie). But trying to explain what's a balanced diet is bit much for him. So we have developed some arbitrary rules for him. He must have at least half a glass of milk/juice with every meal. He must have two pieces of meat with his rice. We find that at this stage of development it's easier to do this - easier for him to follow along as well. I'm sure once he's a little further developed he'll understand the need for hydration, fiber, carbs, etc.

Look at the the relative experience of our team, the immaturity of our cricket culture and the emerging nature of our infrastructure. Perhaps JS is just a good parent?

Interesting analogy and maybe you're right. But it's a bit tough for me reconcile the image of some of our wickedly damrha batsmen with the angelic disposition of a blessed 3.7 year old ... :lol:

Now, some of our batsmen may not be the brightest frogs in the pond of ODI cricket, but they're not learning impaired little fishes either, so to speak. So, the "good parenting" needs to be adjusted accordingly IMHO.

I for one don't want Sid to get the type of heat he has been getting. Hence the constructive criticism to help him succeed. Learning and adaptation can be integral parts of meaningful and positive growth, and Sid cannot be an exception to that idea.

crikfreak
June 30, 2008, 07:07 AM
as a batting coach.. sid id good.. but overall.. i'm still not happy with him.. he needs to do something abt the bowling and fielding..

thebest
June 30, 2008, 09:12 AM
Can someone please relate Alex's innings with the JS 'batting rules' please?

Alex wasn't even in the team, he just joined the team at the last moment. He hardly got any real practice session with JS in comparison to others. while others tried to follow the rules, or was duelling in confusions, Alex just took it in his hand because it was question of his survival and I credit him and his heroics for the innings. Lets push all of them toward the threat of extinct; I'm sure many of them will produce gems; if that's the strategy, it's fine. Which of JS strategy is working; could we relate that?

I came across a number of dumb / Asole bosses, who are well reputed within the org for that. So the subs just do the right thing at the crucial moment violating all instruction, if things are good, the SL dumb will score all the credits and if by chance that goes wrong, will go back to his dumb instruction and fire the sub. Violating the boss and achieving the best, is never a healthy trend in any team. Run the risk of catastrophic collapse anytime and might struggle to perform as a unit in the long run.

Some similar things are happening around our team. We seem to ignore the vital mistakes of batting first, not including bowlers according to pitch condition, decline in bowling, decline in fielding, decline in motivation, losses after losses etc etc.

Have we forgotten that, this (Shommanjonok Porajoy) was just the normal transformation of the team which was expected on a regular basis after WC 07?

I am not suggesting that JS should be thrown out etc etc, neither I like to extend a blind support. One must be able to relate to the policies with the output, I still can't relate JS policies with yesterday's positives. And one positive doesn't eliminate 10 negatives. That's my opinion. (I don't expect Pundit to agree) :)
I agree with almost everything bar the last para. I think it is better for us to appoint who have more tactical nous to be the head coach than JS. So it is better for us to get rid of him as early as possible. JS already proved that he is good but not great batting coach. I am actually impressed about the work he has done with the young cubs (Tamim, Raquibul, Sakib); but failed with the older cubs (SN, Aftab). I am not at all impressed with the transformation with Ashfluke.
DW was similarily uni dimensional. he was a great psychologist but not a good technician.
You fail to mention that he is great strategist. Jaya - Kalu opening partnership for SL, sending Mushy and Sakib ahead of the experience Ash, HB was a masterstroke againest the India in that WC match.

One good innings does not make a good batsman and one fairly good match does not make anyone a good coach.

He seems to have some positive influence on batting, but still appears clueless in overall (which includes fielding, bowling and most importantly winning mentality) management/coaching of the game.
I fully concur.

thebest
June 30, 2008, 09:17 AM
double post

Fazal
June 30, 2008, 09:49 AM
Siddon may not be doing everything right and some cases his actions is not well understood by the fans (including myself
), but I also see some indication that tells me I can still hope for something good to happen under the leadership of siidon.

If we want, we can pick and choose plenty of issues what Siddon did, said, ignored , etc.... but overall I see some sign of something different happening .... something completely different that I haven't see under other coaches... and the result so far is mixed...but I have a feeling something good to happen that will have permanent effect in the team... something we can build for future....


For example there are few things some fans complained (they have reason to complain)...

- Not knowing much about Rafiq's capabilities and publicly exposing his lack of knowledge about Rafiq's capabilities
- Publicly saying that we may not be good enough to win against best teams
- Publicly saying that a score of 220 should be the target and good enough score
- All those Team rules
- Ignoring Rasel
- Decline of bowling overall
- Decline of fielding overall
- Some decisions after winning the toss, etc.
- try to set expectation low enough and undermining past success so that he can claim success in future.
- Promoting some new players too early and dumping them too early
- His bald head



But here are some of the reasons why I see some hope and still why I want to stick with him a little longer

- I saw some changes in Aftab before his head injury and it was JS efffect. So far Aftab went back to old, but I thing in long term Aftab will change.. otherwise he will be not be in the team.
- Sticking with Ash and trying to transform him to make him something really special. Its too early, but I see some changes in Ash that I have never seen under any past coaches. I never thought Ash is changeable the way he is showing now a days.
- Sticking with players like farhad and mahmudullah and let them flourish
- I see effect of Siddon in Tamim
- I see Rakibul is developing nicely ...specailly in both form in the game.
- I see drastic improvement in Farhad's bowling
- I see overall development in Sakib
- We have to wait and see.... but looks like under JS ..Alok may have taken u-turn and going in the right direction.
- Even he Said 220 is the target, looks like the team is moving forward and targeting toward 250+.
- He is a young and first time young coach, so I would expect him to make mistake and learn and grow as a coach. I would rather invest on young promising coach than experienced mediocre coach.
- I see some hints he has a plan and sticking with it, and instead of trying to go for hit and miss home run, he is trying to remold and rebuild a foundation from where he plan to grow the team. I am willing to see further how he progress.
- He is coaching for us 1 year, and its not enough to make some fundamental change in the team. I would rather wait for 1 more year before evaluating him.
- We the fans don't know lots of things that happens day in day out... player's attitude, whether a player is a quick learner or not, their talent level, what politics are involved with players, executives, outside force, etc
- WE also don't know detailed game plan of Siddon, we just know bits and pieces from reports and his interview.

Therefore I am willing to wait and see mode.... I can understand why some fans criticize JS... but I am not ready to start asking for JS's head yet... actually I am seeing some hope in JS and the team as long as we stick with him 1+ years... but do we have the patient to do that?

We gain something special we need to go through some pain... are we will to do that?

We need to understand the meaning of the signals. Are those real or fluke? Can we identify the difference?

These are the real questions,,,

nsd3
June 30, 2008, 10:02 AM
Siddon may not be doing everything right and some cases his actions is not well understood by the fans (including myself
), but I also see some indication that tells me I can still hope for something good to happen under the leadership of siidon.

If we want, we can pick and choose plenty of issues what Siddon did, said, ignored , etc.... but overall I see some sign of something different happening .... something completely different that I haven't see under other coaches... and the result so far is mixed...but I have a feeling something good to happen that will have permanent effect in the team... something we can build for future....


For example there are few things some fans complained (they have reason to complain)...

- Not knowing much about Rafiq's capabilities and publicly exposing his lack of knowledge about Rafiq's capabilities
- Publicly saying that we may not be good enough to win against best teams
- Publicly saying that a score of 220 should be the target and good enough score
- All those Team rules
- Ignoring Rasel
- Decline of bowling overall
- Decline of fielding overall
- Some decisions after winning the toss, etc.
- try to set expectation low enough and undermining past success so that he can claim success in future.
- Promoting some new players too early and dumping them too early
- His bald head



But here are some of the reasons why I see some hope and still why I want to stick with him a little longer

- I saw some changes in Aftab before his head injury and it was JS efffect. So far Aftab went back to old, but I thing in long term Aftab will change.. otherwise he will be not be in the team.
- Sticking with Ash and trying to transform him to make him something really special. Its too early, but I see some changes in Ash that I have never seen under any past coaches. I never thought Ash is changeable the way he is showing now a days.
- Sticking with players like farhad and mahmudullah and let them flourish
- I see effect of Siddon in Tamim
- I see Rakibul is developing nicely ...specailly in both form in the game.
- I see drastic improvement in Farhad's bowling
- I see overall development in Sakib
- We have to wait and see.... but looks like under JS ..Alok may have taken u-turn and going in the right direction.
- Even he Said 220 is the target, looks like the team is moving forward and targeting toward 250+.
- He is a young and first time young coach, so I would expect him to make mistake and learn and grow as a coach. I would rather invest on young promising coach than experienced mediocre coach.
- I see some hints he has a plan and sticking with it, and instead of trying to go for hit and miss home run, he is trying to remold and rebuild a foundation from where he plan to grow the team. I am willing to see further how he progress.
- He is coaching for us 1 year, and its not enough to make some fundamental change in the team. I would rather wait for 1 more year before evaluating him.
- We the fans don't know lots of things that happens day in day out... player's attitude, whether a player is a quick learner or not, their talent level, what politics are involved with players, executives, outside force, etc
- WE also don't know detailed game plan of Siddon, we just know bits and pieces from reports and his interview.

Therefore I am willing to wait and see mode.... I can understand why some fans criticize JS... but I am not ready to start asking for JS's head yet... actually I am seeing some hope in JS and the team as long as we stick with him 1+ years... but do we have the patient to do that?

We gain something special we need to go through some pain... are we will to do that?

We need to understand the meaning of the signals. Are those real or fluke? Can we identify the difference?

These are the real questions,,,
Brilliant in one word. I like the way you're putting things in perspectives. Enjoyed your post. Thanks a lot.

just now Ashraful showed he is back in old form getting caught trying to pull too early on a short ball. It will take time but patience is the key.

Murad
June 30, 2008, 11:18 AM
Well written, Fazal. :up:

You made some good points. :)

Miraz
June 30, 2008, 11:38 AM
- I see Rakibul is developing nicely ...specailly in both form in the game.

Fazal bhaijan, apart from ODI, what's the other form Rakibul is developing?

He is yet to make his Test and T20 debut. :)

Pundit
June 30, 2008, 11:56 AM
An in-form Rassel and Sakib needed back in the team ASAP.

Fazal
June 30, 2008, 11:58 AM
He is yet to make his Test and T20 debut. :)

You are right in that aspect. However the reason I said he is developing in both form is from the following perspective:

As a nation we are not playing test that many any way so we have to wait and see for end result. But so far we have seen, fans here more or less things that he is more of a TEST prospect rather than a ODI prospect. People have have concern about his ODI skills. So even he haven't played a TEST yet, I am less concernes about his TEST prospect. some of his patient ODi innings (at the begining) nd how he buit his inngings gives me hope that he is developing skill (mental and physical) to be successful both in oDI as well as TEST.

thebest
June 30, 2008, 12:15 PM
Fazal vai,
with the exception of his bald head the other critiques against JS is quite fair AFAI concern. Regarding the so called improvement let me clarify something.
1. Aftab: Is this the same Aftab we are talking who scored 57 runs in Pakistan. I saw no change in his approach in Pak tour. He yet made one good score in JS era. I was actually thinking we are seeing a new Aftab till that Kallis bouncer.
2. Ash is changing; but not improving. Before he was trying to hot 4/6 even to unplayable balls and now he defend in those balls which have 4 written all over.
3. You were talking about sticking on Farhad and Riyad. I do not watch so much Riyad bar one match. But I think he is actually destroying Farhad by making him opening bowler and toying with his batting position. AFAI concern he is the cleanest hitter of ball in Bangladesh team; now we are losing him. And I yet fail to nderstand why he dropped Dhiman; remember I am a Mushy fan
4. I do not know what improvement he made to Rakib. But this guy has a triple ton in domestic match and with Sakib and Mushy considered as the most thinking crickter in domestic circuit.
But anyway even as his harshest critique agree that he is a good batting coach (Tamim may attest); we have problem he being as head coach. We often talk why Ash is not learning? But is our coach learning? How many 300+ score needed agaienst us to realize that we need Rasel opening the bowling; you need to watch local game to spot talent. I was quite surprised to learn that JS agreed Alok's inclusion based on a single net practice. You need to perform in three departments (batting, bowling, fielding) to win a match. JS should know it better as he was the batting coach when SA chased 434, NZ succesively chased 350+. But in the last 10 monthes not a single match our three dept clicks. Unfortunatley we move forward two steps in batting but move backward four steps in fielding and eight steps in bowling. The blame should be put solely on JS.

Dhurr
June 30, 2008, 01:37 PM
Fazal mamu, great post. I don't agree with all of it, but great post nonetheless.

Gowza
June 30, 2008, 06:31 PM
here's a bit of a batting comparison between whatmore's team and siddons team, keep in mind whatmore had 4 years and siddons has only had like 7 or 8 months.

- whatmore's team never got 280+ against top 8 teams and siddons team has done it twice
- whatmores team only got 280+ on one occassion (against kenya), siddons team has already done it 4 times (twice against top 8s, twice against minnows)
- siddons team has 4 of the top 5 highest totals by BD in ODIs
- siddons team already has 4 centuries (2 against top 8s), whatmores only had 7 in 4 years (one against top 8s)
- ashraful's average although still not great is getting better, he's actually got it over 23 and i don't think that happened under whatmore (i'd call that an improvement)
- shakib, SN, riyad and raqibul all average over 30 with the bat, not sure if BD has ever had 4 batsmen averaging 30+ in ODIs all at the same time
- on the other side of things whatmores team actually does have a lot more 250+ scores than siddons' team, but remember he did have more time than siddons. siddons' teams 250+ scores tend to be bigger e.g. everytime siddons' team has 250+ it's been 280+

in regards to aftab, well he was trying to change but then he's had a couple of injuries which have surely interupted his progress, and by the looks of it discouraged him from making those changes, he's had less time to practice with siddons because of these injuries so it shouldn't be surprising if he's behind the other batsmen imo

i think it's becoming more and more obvious every game that the batting is improving (well except for this last match) but everything else is falling away.

nahaz
June 30, 2008, 07:38 PM
There's no doubt Siddons is nurturing our batting talents quite well. Apart from Kapali, all seemed to improve under his guidance( Kapali just has the experience).

However, our bowling has never looked so bad. Especially our pace bowling is falling apart. We had much better performances when Tapash and Sharif were playing. I have not seen a more indisciplined bowling performance. Even UAE has bowled much better to Lanka. Rasel should come back. Reza, Rajib and Mamu all have the capability to bowl better. Hopefully siddons keeps an eye on all 3 departments from now on., Oh, and I think even a local bowling coach can help...prob more than international faltu coaches since the main prob is in the bowlers' head. Oh, and fielding is bad too.

Foozy
June 30, 2008, 10:54 PM
Siddon may not be doing everything right and some cases his actions is not well understood by the fans (including myself
), but I also see some indication that tells me I can still hope for something good to happen under the leadership of siidon.

If we want, we can pick and choose plenty of issues what Siddon did, said, ignored , etc.... but overall I see some sign of something different happening .... something completely different that I haven't see under other coaches... and the result so far is mixed...but I have a feeling something good to happen that will have permanent effect in the team... something we can build for future....


For example there are few things some fans complained (they have reason to complain)...

- Not knowing much about Rafiq's capabilities and publicly exposing his lack of knowledge about Rafiq's capabilities
- Publicly saying that we may not be good enough to win against best teams
- Publicly saying that a score of 220 should be the target and good enough score
- All those Team rules
- Ignoring Rasel
- Decline of bowling overall
- Decline of fielding overall
- Some decisions after winning the toss, etc.
- try to set expectation low enough and undermining past success so that he can claim success in future.
- Promoting some new players too early and dumping them too early
- His bald head



But here are some of the reasons why I see some hope and still why I want to stick with him a little longer

- I saw some changes in Aftab before his head injury and it was JS efffect. So far Aftab went back to old, but I thing in long term Aftab will change.. otherwise he will be not be in the team.
- Sticking with Ash and trying to transform him to make him something really special. Its too early, but I see some changes in Ash that I have never seen under any past coaches. I never thought Ash is changeable the way he is showing now a days.
- Sticking with players like farhad and mahmudullah and let them flourish
- I see effect of Siddon in Tamim
- I see Rakibul is developing nicely ...specailly in both form in the game.
- I see drastic improvement in Farhad's bowling
- I see overall development in Sakib
- We have to wait and see.... but looks like under JS ..Alok may have taken u-turn and going in the right direction.
- Even he Said 220 is the target, looks like the team is moving forward and targeting toward 250+.
- He is a young and first time young coach, so I would expect him to make mistake and learn and grow as a coach. I would rather invest on young promising coach than experienced mediocre coach.
- I see some hints he has a plan and sticking with it, and instead of trying to go for hit and miss home run, he is trying to remold and rebuild a foundation from where he plan to grow the team. I am willing to see further how he progress.
- He is coaching for us 1 year, and its not enough to make some fundamental change in the team. I would rather wait for 1 more year before evaluating him.
- We the fans don't know lots of things that happens day in day out... player's attitude, whether a player is a quick learner or not, their talent level, what politics are involved with players, executives, outside force, etc
- WE also don't know detailed game plan of Siddon, we just know bits and pieces from reports and his interview.

Therefore I am willing to wait and see mode.... I can understand why some fans criticize JS... but I am not ready to start asking for JS's head yet... actually I am seeing some hope in JS and the team as long as we stick with him 1+ years... but do we have the patient to do that?

We gain something special we need to go through some pain... are we will to do that?

We need to understand the meaning of the signals. Are those real or fluke? Can we identify the difference?

These are the real questions,,,

Thank you for this post Fazal. Good read...

BD-Shardul
July 1, 2008, 12:48 AM
His bald head

:floor::floor::floor:

We need to understand the meaning of the signals. Are those real or fluke? Can we identify the difference?

These are the real questions

Mamu, only EE people can answer that. I am taking the summer course ECEN 314: Signals and Systems. After I pass that course, I will be able to examine those signals and determine if they were real or fluke :-D

Fazal
July 1, 2008, 06:43 AM
Mamu, only EE people can answer that. I am taking the summer course ECEN 314: Signals and Systems. After I pass that course, I will be able to examine those signals and determine if they were real or fluke :-D

Bhaigna,

Good to know that you are taking EE courses. Then lets talk in term of EE and electricity then. Bangaldesh's performance was more like(110 volt ) spicky AC current with more down than up. Siddon is trying to produce DC current. But right now its only 6 volt at best . Thats the problem.

Stumped
July 1, 2008, 07:00 AM
I think this guy knows what he is doing. He is a opposite type of character to Dav.

I think a good comparison between them is well deserved. This will show us their thinking processes to achieve the goals. Though both of them are from Australia, they differ with each other in almost every single aspect.

Dav played for national team while Siddons never got the chance. Though he is considered to be in the list of top 50 ever batsmen in some people's opinion.
The best feature of Dav is his inspiration capability. He can some times do wonder by inspiring even a very young team. We have seen the example a few times indeed. But if you work with a single team this way you can achieve wins time to time but never can expect stability in the team in terms of performance. On the other hand, Siddons relies on the hard facts of statistics which shows the capabilities of a player. If you can show you can score runs in at least any form of the game you are in the team. Not a bad idea at all.
Dav was really moody type. This was the biggest complaints from the journalists. On the contrary, Siddons some times seem to be too easy going with the team and the press.
Siddons wants the team to perform at least moderately every game. If this continues then wins would start to come frequently. On the other hand, Dav wanted wins some games and could allow flat performances other days.
Dav didn't work with individual players to fix their problem. We saw same player doing the same mistake over and over again during his tenure. Siddons seems to work with each of them. We saw Tamim becoming a consistent batsman under his supervision. Ash seems to settle down. Kapali the burnt out boy showed wonder yesterday.Overall rating cannot be done yet. Still he seems to be a good professional coach IMO whom BD really needs at the moment.

First of all.. hi guys!! Long time since Ive been on here!

Second.. I dont knwo wether to be proud or shocked that you are still talkin bout Dav. Jamie and Dav are different people but they both have the same drive to want the best for the team in thier own ways...

I think in reference to the above quote, you need to know more before you write! I dont agree with all of it. You also have to remember what the team was like before Dav started as opposed to when Jamie started! I did laugh when u said he is moody and that "Dav didn't work with individual players to fix their problem".... you have nooo idea!

Fazal
July 1, 2008, 07:22 AM
Fazal vai,
with the exception of his bald head the other critiques against JS is quite fair AFAI concern. Regarding the so called improvement let me clarify something.
1. Aftab: Is this the same Aftab we are talking who scored 57 runs in Pakistan. I saw no change in his approach in Pak tour. He yet made one good score in JS era. I was actually thinking we are seeing a new Aftab till that Kallis bouncer.
2. Ash is changing; but not improving. Before he was trying to hot 4/6 even to unplayable balls and now he defend in those balls which have 4 written all over.
3. You were talking about sticking on Farhad and Riyad. I do not watch so much Riyad bar one match. But I think he is actually destroying Farhad by making him opening bowler and toying with his batting position. AFAI concern he is the cleanest hitter of ball in Bangladesh team; now we are losing him. And I yet fail to nderstand why he dropped Dhiman; remember I am a Mushy fan
4. I do not know what improvement he made to Rakib. But this guy has a triple ton in domestic match and with Sakib and Mushy considered as the most thinking crickter in domestic circuit.
But anyway even as his harshest critique agree that he is a good batting coach (Tamim may attest); we have problem he being as head coach. We often talk why Ash is not learning? But is our coach learning? How many 300+ score needed agaienst us to realize that we need Rasel opening the bowling; you need to watch local game to spot talent. I was quite surprised to learn that JS agreed Alok's inclusion based on a single net practice. You need to perform in three departments (batting, bowling, fielding) to win a match. JS should know it better as he was the batting coach when SA chased 434, NZ succesively chased 350+. But in the last 10 monthes not a single match our three dept clicks. Unfortunatley we move forward two steps in batting but move backward four steps in fielding and eight steps in bowling. The blame should be put solely on JS.

thebest,

good points. I kind of agree the one that I highlighted.

- I also think that bouncer killed all the sign of progress that we may have seen in aftab

- I also have concern about Ash i.e. he is changing... whether it will do him any good or not, I don't know. I pretty much gave up on Ash ,,, but now atleast I am going to ait and see a little bit... may be the end result will be disappointing.... but atleast JS is trying to stir things up. So I will give some credit to him.

- About farhad I agree and I have the same concern, As an outsider I also think he is not used properly ... atleast he is not using his strength..... rather exposing his (Farhad's) weakness. Farhad is (still) not an opening bowler and he used to be much better batsman .... I don;t know what happend to his batting.

- I don;t who is behind Dhiman's inclusion and sudden exclusion. I didn't liked that also... specially the way they brought him and dumped him for no reason.

- About Rakib and Sakib, JS may or may not contributed anything, but as a coach when a player develops or fail to develop the coach gets some credit/discredit.... whether he deserve it or not we can ask that question.... but thats the way its works.... so I will give some credit to JS even he may not have anything to do with it.

-About the way Alok was inclided, I would put too much weight on it as I have very little respect on those taboid reporters. We know very litlle exactly what happens inside andI think we fans know very little about those ... reporters may know little bit more but not necessarily everything specially first hand knowledge ... most of the cases they know it from 2nd /3rd hand or even worse made up/partial information. I am not an Alok fan,,,, but i have to admid that his selection this time worked out fine for now,,,, its more justfied (by performance) than any other previous experiment with Alok.

- Yes fielding and bowling is the disapointemnt so far under him, Except may be the bowling imprivement of Sakib and Farhad. I don'tknow what is the problem. May be the departure of Rafiq and the lack of form of mashrafee and Rasel's injury contributed that also. But JS deserve some blame.


Don't get me wrong. I am not completely sold on JS. Now am I completely happy with all the deceions SJ is making. I also understand the concern some fans are raising regarding JS, Point by Point I agree some most of them. And as you all may know by now that I am not the most patient fan in this forum. But still at the end of the day, I am will to stick with Siddon for one more year before I pronounce him a failure as a coach. I think he is a new, young and in-experienced coach with determination and plan coaching a pretty bad team in completely different culture that he is not familiar with; his plan may work out, or it may not.... and people who are criticizing him, I kind of agree their points and I think is its healthy discussion and hopefully will guide him to right direction.... but I have to say it again..... I would rather stay with him one more year before I ask for his head..... because .... good or bad ... I see some changes... some of them I agree... some of them I may not.

fwullah
July 1, 2008, 07:53 AM
JS has a tough test ahead with South Africa tour coming up in November, where we'll also play a couple of test matches after a long long time.

rattlehead
July 1, 2008, 12:21 PM
siddons effect will have a more positive effect, but we need a damn bowling coach for that!!! where the hell is that lankan dude, he needs to shape up our pacers, and quick!
and batting has improved quite a lot

zainab
July 1, 2008, 01:37 PM
JS has not been the Coach for 1 full year. He joined in November and since then, he has taken quite a few vacations. i do not have a fair opinion of him, I still feel that he blabbers too much and should shut up. Though India is a good team, they have improved a lot since Gary Kirsten came on board, especially in their fielding.

As a head coach, he should oversee all the aspects of the team, Batting, bowling and fielding, but I think that he is only interested in the batting. I think the only time he spends with them is when they are playing international cricket, other to that he is on vacation. I think he will go on another vacation after this competition and will be away for another 2 weeks. A hard tour of Australia is coming up and he should be having more training camps in Dhaka. These lads need individual coaching.

IMO, he is still not the right head coach.

Sadz
July 1, 2008, 01:50 PM
He is too relaxed and he never seems to have genuine concerns for the team apart from the criticism he makes

akabir77
July 1, 2008, 01:56 PM
He is too relaxed and he never seems to have genuine concerns for the team apart from the criticism he makes

That is not true. Every body who earns that much has to be genuinely concern about their job else they would lose that in a puff.

He might not show that but i am not sure how one leaving outside my see that

BANFAN
July 1, 2008, 11:27 PM
I agree with almost everything bar the last para. I think it is better for us to appoint who have more tactical nous to be the head coach than JS. So it is better for us to get rid of him as early as possible. JS already proved that he is good but not great batting coach. I am actually impressed about the work he has done with the young cubs (Tamim, Raquibul, Sakib); but failed with the older cubs (SN, Aftab). I am not at all impressed with the transformation with Ashfluke.

I agree to you, if the individual performances are not attributed solely to JS. I don't agree with people who try to credit the coach for the performances of Alex, Rakib, Mami, Tamim... He had the biggest focus on Ash and it doesn't yet look good, but I hope it may be good. Tamim was changing much before JS came in, and All the others have hardly spent time with JS. These sorts of individual understanding and maturity was expected after the WC experience.

But JS is successfully exploiting the individual performances to his credit. And many of the people are being exploited as well.

Those who compare WM with JS, must remember that the situation & level of BD cric at the point of their taking over.

thebest
July 3, 2008, 11:16 AM
In today's PA there is an article on development of players (http://www.prothom-alo.com/mcat.news.details.php?nid=MTA2NDg4&mid=OA==)specially freak players in SL setup. What caught my attention was how SL coaches were enhancing players quality without taking out the players natural strong point. They never tried to change the players natural style but fine tuned it to meet the demand of team. This write up increased my dislike of JS more as he is trying to make change of Ashfluke. For God's sake Ash is a stroke player not a grafter. He is trying to make a Boycot out of Jayasuriya. DW never tried to change the natural flair of Jaya, Kalu, Gurusinha, Arvinda. Just fine tuned it and put insurence player in the form of Ranatunga, Tilakratna. I understand DW failed to fine tuned Ash but what JS is trying is simply insane. Probably we are going to miss our customary eid once/twice in a year which means we are losing our match winner. Don't get me wrong, Ash might ended up with higher batting average but we would lose our midas touch - Ash score big; we win ODI.

Sohel
July 3, 2008, 11:24 AM
Spot on.

Also: -

Developing a strong FC BEFORE test status = Sri Lanka.

Glorified street cricket to test status = Bangladesh.

Pundit
July 3, 2008, 11:30 AM
[quote=thebest;709571]In today's PA there is an article on development of players (http://www.prothom-alo.com/mcat.news.details.php?nid=MTA2NDg4&mid=OA==)specially freak players in SL setup. What caught my attention was how SL coaches were enhancing players quality without taking out the players natural strong point. They never tried to change the players natural style but fine tuned it to meet the demand of team. This write up increased my dislike of JS more as he is trying to make change of Ashfluke. quote]

Each disease has its own treatment and medicine.

Either way, I think Ash's day's for jhore-bok centuries have faded. Oppositions have figured out that he can be easily lured into a trap.

Until he learns how to play by the merit of the ball - we'll see things like a 11 bal 20 run scores.

So you'll still have your Eids, but the day is over after your prayers. No Eid dress for you to flaunt.

Beamer
July 3, 2008, 12:13 PM
[quote=thebest;709571]In today's PA there is an article on development of players (http://www.prothom-alo.com/mcat.news.details.php?nid=MTA2NDg4&mid=OA==)specially freak players in SL setup. What caught my attention was how SL coaches were enhancing players quality without taking out the players natural strong point. They never tried to change the players natural style but fine tuned it to meet the demand of team. This write up increased my dislike of JS more as he is trying to make change of Ashfluke. quote]

Each disease has its own treatment and medicine.

Either way, I think Ash's day's for jhore-bok centuries have faded. Oppositions have figured out that he can be easily lured into a trap.

Until he learns how to play by the merit of the ball - we'll see things like a 11 bal 20 run scores.

So you'll still have your Eids, but the day is over after your prayers. No Eid dress for you to flaunt.

When it comes to Ash, instead of two Eid's, I am willing participate in and celebrate ' baro mashe tero puja's '

Tigers_eye
July 3, 2008, 12:29 PM
When it comes to Ash, instead of two Eid's, I am willing participate in and celebrate ' baro mashe tero puja's '
I am down with this. I have no issues with 13 puja's.

KnightBD
July 3, 2008, 01:10 PM
[quote=thebest;709571]In today's PA there is an article on development of players (http://www.prothom-alo.com/mcat.news.details.php?nid=MTA2NDg4&mid=OA==)specially freak players in SL setup. What caught my attention was how SL coaches were enhancing players quality without taking out the players natural strong point. They never tried to change the players natural style but fine tuned it to meet the demand of team. This write up increased my dislike of JS more as he is trying to make change of Ash...
Don't make your decision based on the news. The reporter is biased and he wants the reader to do exactly what you have done! Those ... journalists!

Pundit
July 3, 2008, 01:13 PM
[quote=Pundit;709577]

When it comes to Ash, instead of two Eid's, I am willing participate in and celebrate ' baro mashe tero puja's '

Could not have agreed more.

People are assuming that if Ash learns how to score 40/50 consitantly, than he'll forget how to score 100s.

I would rather have 4 batsmen add together 200 runs every game, and not one batsman score a 100 once every year.

Many of us stress so much on how poor our domestic is, but then, want Ash (a national team player) to play as if he is dominating the opposition in the domestic by playing like a Domestic player.

Sadz
July 3, 2008, 01:29 PM
I agree that Ash should consistently score 50 more than anything else because that would benefit the team more and even if he does get a 100 it doesnt guarantee a win.
E.g. Alok's ton against India in vain!

Jaybaba
July 3, 2008, 01:35 PM
We need to be patient. It hasn't yet been a year for JS.

What we can tell for sure is that he is definitely not a complete disaster like Mohsin Kamal & Co, who actually pulled Bangladesh backwards. On this basis alone, JS deserves to be given at least 4 years time - and then judge if his processes provide tangible results.

I like JS - he seems very practical and level headed. He is very aware of where we stand as an international team and is trying to go from that benchmark. His team rules, processes, etc are all based on the fact that we still are far behind than the G8 teams.

What works for teams like IND will not work for us - we cannot set a target of 300 right now. Once we are consistently making 250, then we can set a target of 275+.

We gotta learn to walk before we can run. We gotta learn to draw a test match before we can win.

bujhee kom
July 3, 2008, 03:06 PM
absolutely agree with both knightbd and jaybaba bhai!
there is no other way one can can explain and make one understand this!

thebest
July 4, 2008, 05:50 AM
there is no chance of eid let alone ১৩ পার্বন. He was good puller and hooker of balls. Now a days Ash is either missing or mistiming playing hook or pull. Because JS changed his natural game and he is in two minds. Thus he is still getting out in the twenties but with much lesser strike rate

nsd3
July 4, 2008, 06:11 AM
there is no chance of eid let alone ১৩ পার্বন. He was good puller and hooker of balls. Now a days Ash is either missing or mistiming playing hook or pull. Because JS changed his natural game and he is in two minds. Thus he is still getting out in the twenties but with much lesser strike rate
Your concerns are addressed in several posts by several members. If you are still singing the same song, I'd say let's wait till we find answers. Hope this helps.

BANFAN
July 5, 2008, 10:35 PM
In today's PA there is an article on development of players (http://www.prothom-alo.com/mcat.news.details.php?nid=MTA2NDg4&mid=OA==)specially freak players in SL setup. What caught my attention was how SL coaches were enhancing players quality without taking out the players natural strong point. They never tried to change the players natural style but fine tuned it to meet the demand of team. This write up increased my dislike of JS more as he is trying to make change of Ashfluke. For God's sake Ash is a stroke player not a grafter. He is trying to make a Boycot out of Jayasuriya. DW never tried to change the natural flair of Jaya, Kalu, Gurusinha, Arvinda. Just fine tuned it and put insurence player in the form of Ranatunga, Tilakratna. I understand DW failed to fine tuned Ash but what JS is trying is simply insane. Probably we are going to miss our customary eid once/twice in a year which means we are losing our match winner. Don't get me wrong, Ash might ended up with higher batting average but we would lose our midas touch - Ash score big; we win ODI.

That's what all the experts are saying.

Hashta bochore ekta hoileo shonar dim dito, but we became greedy and we wanted more, so we changed his game. But he even forgot to lay once in a year :).

The experts of our BC is so blind on JS, they are just expecting many things baselessly, against all conventional wisdom.

Eshen
July 6, 2008, 06:33 PM
The Jamie Siddons effect - creation of a fan base who are happy with gigantic loses.

RazabQ
July 7, 2008, 11:37 PM
http://www.banglacricket.com/alochona/showpost.php?p=711757&postcount=101

Shamelessly double dipping :D

RazabQ
July 7, 2008, 11:38 PM
The Jamie Siddons effect - creation of a fan base who are happy with gigantic loses.Gigantic losses, and our ability [বাংলা]হজম[/বাংলা]ify them is a new phenomenon how?

bujhee kom
July 7, 2008, 11:47 PM
yeah kool! i will start a band named "the jamie siddons effect" (copyright)!
live 2008/2009

Zunaid
September 15, 2008, 12:47 PM
With the interview published, time to bump this thread ....

Tehsin
September 15, 2008, 08:46 PM
The interview AND the ICL fiasco. Great timing. I have a feeling JS will be dragged (as he should be) into this player exodus saga.

With the interview published, time to bump this thread ....

Tehsin
September 16, 2008, 09:36 AM
Dr. Z, looks like no one else cared about Sumon's claims of being mistreated by the coach. I guess that's a good sign. ;)

WarWolf
September 16, 2008, 04:41 PM
Dr. Z, looks like no one else cared about Sumon's claims of being mistreated by the coach. I guess that's a good sign. ;)
Sumon er kotha sune amar kisu bigoto joubona aunty der kotha mone porse. Jara boyosh chole geleo jor kore make up and dress up dia churi shajte didha kore na,

zainab
September 16, 2008, 04:53 PM
I blame Jamie Siddons for this exodus, he was indifferent to these players, he had his favourites. He should be axed IMO>.

Tehsin
September 16, 2008, 05:21 PM
Ewwwww, I did not need that image of Sumon in drag in my head. Bhai, roja romjaan er maash, bomi korlei to roja bhongo.

Sumon er kotha sune amar kisu bigoto joubona aunty der kotha mone porse. Jara boyosh chole geleo jor kore make up and dress up dia churi shajte didha kore na,

WarWolf
September 16, 2008, 06:15 PM
Ewwwww, I did not need that image of Sumon in drag in my head. Bhai, roja romjaan er maash, bomi korlei to roja bhongo.
Sorry Tehsin bhai. Post ta likhesilam sehri korte jabar just age. Tai amar roja vongo hobar voi chilo na.:-D