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View Full Version : Downward spiral of Bangladesh in ODI under Jamie Siddons


Miraz
June 19, 2010, 10:15 AM
We enjoyed a relatively successful period in ODI cricket from June 2003 to May 2007 (The Whatmore era of Bangladesh cricket). This is the period when Bangladesh distanced themselves from Zimbabwe, Kenya and all other associates. They also managed wins against Australia, Sri Lanka, India and South Africa in ODI and against West Indies in T20. Here's the performance record

<table class="engineTable"><caption>
</caption><thead><tr class="head"><th class="left" nowrap="nowrap">
</th> <th title="playing span" class="left" nowrap="nowrap">Span</th> <th title="matches played" nowrap="nowrap">Mat</th> <th title="matches won" nowrap="nowrap">Won</th> <th title="matches lost" nowrap="nowrap">Lost</th> <th title="matches tied" nowrap="nowrap">Tied</th> <th title="matches with no result" nowrap="nowrap">NR</th> <th title="win/loss ratio" nowrap="nowrap">W/L</th> <th title="average runs per wicket" nowrap="nowrap">Ave</th> <th title="average runs per six balls" nowrap="nowrap">RPO</th> <th title="highest team score" nowrap="nowrap">HS</th> <th title="lowest completed score" nowrap="nowrap">LS</th></tr></thead></table>
<table class="engineTable"><tbody><tr class="data1"><td class="left">filtered</td> <td class="left" nowrap="nowrap">2003-2007</td> <td>86</td> <td>33</td> <td>53</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>0.62</td> <td>24.41</td> <td>4.36</td> <td>301</td> <td>86</td> <td>
</td></tr></tbody></table>
We scored 24.41 runs per wicket with much less capable players than the current bunch who burst into the scene right at the end of the Whatmore era.

Siddons took charge, dismissed Bangladesh's success at the world level as fluke and promised a lot. Those who are following Bangladesh cricket for long enough cannot forget the painful Mohsin Kamal "Sidha khelo" era. He simply brought back those memories with countless defeats. Bangladesh did not win a single match against top eight nations in the first 15 months in charge. After couple of wins against New Zealand and Sri Lanka (barring win against weakened West Indies), Bangladesh kept losing in every ODI they played.

This is his record since taking charge of Bangladesh cricket (including wins against the associates).

<table class="engineTable"><caption>
</caption><thead><tr class="head"><th class="left" nowrap="nowrap">
</th> <th title="playing span" class="left" nowrap="nowrap">Span</th> <th title="matches played" nowrap="nowrap">Mat</th> <th title="matches won" nowrap="nowrap">Won</th> <th title="matches lost" nowrap="nowrap">Lost</th> <th title="matches tied" nowrap="nowrap">Tied</th> <th title="matches with no result" nowrap="nowrap">NR</th> <th title="win/loss ratio" nowrap="nowrap">W/L</th> <th title="average runs per wicket" nowrap="nowrap">Ave</th> <th title="average runs per six balls" nowrap="nowrap">RPO</th> <th title="highest team score" nowrap="nowrap">HS</th> <th title="lowest completed score" nowrap="nowrap">LS</th></tr></thead></table>
<table class="engineTable"><tbody><tr class="data1"><td class="left">filtered</td> <td class="left" nowrap="nowrap">2007-2010</td> <td>63</td> <td>19</td> <td>44</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>0.43</td> <td>24.74</td> <td>4.55</td> <td>320</td> <td>74</td> <td>
</td></tr></tbody></table>
The overall win loss ratio dipped from 0.62 to 0.43. Runs per wicket remained almost same (24.74 versus 24.41). So where is the improvement except losing more matches?

A lot of siddons fan want to point out towards overall improvement in the batting department as his major success. A difference of only 0.43 runs per wicket cannot be considered significant let alone a success. And we have to also consider the gradual decline of bowling department despite the presence of a specialist bowling coach. With wins dried out and in the middle of a 12 match losing streak (which for sure will extend to at least 16 matches, if not more) I am sorry I cannot see the improvement. I can only see the downward spiral. The decline of Bangladesh cricket.

He failed to capitalise on the success of Bangladesh cricket and leading the decline of bangladesh cricket. All he can do better is some useless and rubiish media pep talk where he blames anything and everything for the failure except taking some blame on himself.

I am sure he will be in charge until 2011 world cup where Bangladesh will repeat a World Cup 2003 performance on home soil. he will depart leaving Bangladesh to the same place and we will need another Whatmore to change the defeatist attitude of the current bunch of players.

Even Boycott's grandmother could have done better with the current bunch of players.

mishu
June 19, 2010, 10:52 AM
my friend, if the players can not score more than 10 runs in an ODI game what can the coach do...

the selectors are not doing anything that Siddons is asking, our top players are not scoring, Ash has a life time mebership in the team, and if he is in the team Sidon has to play him in top order bcos he is a top order batsman plus i'm sure Sidon has no choice,,,
\

i see this as a total failure from players, specially ASh, cas he totally destroys the momentum of the game... score 1 run per 20 balls faced (exg..)

Miraz
June 19, 2010, 10:55 AM
mishu, a coach is there for a reason and a coach can make a lot of difference in mindset and attitude of players in international sports. Mindset and attitude is at least 50% in international sports and the rest is played on the field.

Bangladesh cricket itself can be a prime example here. Mohsin Kamal and Ali Zia combo failed to win a single match in internartional cricket (Zimbabwe and Kenya included), the same group of players under Dav Whatmore won 18 out of 22 matches against the same opposition. Want more proof?

thebest
June 19, 2010, 11:01 AM
my friend, if the players can not score more than 10 runs in an ODI game what can the coach do...


then we dont need coach.

Equinox
June 19, 2010, 11:04 AM
mishu, a coach is there for a reason and a coach can make a lot of difference in mindset and attitude of players in international sports. Mindset and attitude is at least 50% in international sports and the rest is played on the field.

Bangladesh cricket itself can be a prime example here. Mohsin Kamal and Ali Zia combo failed to win a single match in internartional cricket (Zimbabwe and Kenya included), the same group of players under Dav Whatmore won 18 out of 22 matches against the same opposition. Want more proof?
Could it have something to do with the decline of Zimbabwe and Kenya post-2003?

Miraz
June 19, 2010, 11:15 AM
Could it have something to do with the decline of Zimbabwe and Kenya post-2003?

Kenya didn't decline until 2006 and we managed to win even against full strength Zimbabwe before the rebel saga unfolded.

Decline of Zimbabwe has definitely helped but it still takes a lot effort to win matches when we have not won a single match for ages.

However, I hope you won't claim that even India, Sri Lanka, South Africa or Australia declined in that period. Winning against any of these teams was a dream in pre-2003. Sounds familiar? Yes, it is now again a dream in 2010.

mishu
June 19, 2010, 11:27 AM
Could it have something to do with the decline of Zimbabwe and Kenya post-2003?

indeed...

And it has also alot to do with politicians....

c'omon?? Mashrafee, Rasel, Razzak, rubel: as bowlers...without a decent bowling coach...

no coach in the world can win with these out of form players,, forget batting,,,

I refuse to blame the coach until our player selection is right.. we won games under Siddon as well when the players were at least decent, in last series against England Ash wasn't there, that helped...

Spitfire_x86
June 19, 2010, 11:28 AM
Kenya didn't decline until 2006 and we managed to win even against full strength Zimbabwe before the rebel saga unfolded.
That was only once, against #9 ranked side. Under Siddons, we won 2 matches against full strength top 8 sides as well.

During Siddons era, our minnow bashing record has been equally good or better, and performance against full strength top 8 sides hasn't worsened. Fact

Spitfire_x86
June 19, 2010, 11:37 AM
I am sure he will be in charge until 2011 world cup where Bangladesh will repeat a World Cup 2003 performance on home soil. he will depart leaving Bangladesh to the same place and we will need another Whatmore to change the defeatist attitude of the current bunch of players.
We played with defeatist mindset under every coach, Whatmore included. Find me a tournament played in Whatmore era where we didn't play with defeatist attitude in majority of matches.

beshideshi
June 19, 2010, 11:37 AM
The performance in Asia cup has certainly spiced up the Jamie Siddons hatred. I think it is quite wrong to put the bulk of the blame on Jamie. First of all, let's talk about the stats:
from the 2003-2007 period we played a LOT against weaker teams like Kenya, Zimbabwe, Namibia etc, so the average runs per wicket might have been boosted as result. If one could find the runs/wicket against G8 teams, that would give us a clearer image.
Let's have a look at our "hugely successful" world cup 2007 shall we? And then take out the India and South Africa games, we managed 198,74[against the mighty Irish] run loss, 10,9, 4 wickets lost. And I will have to say, we looked like a one match wonder team in that world cup until we had another good day against South Africa.
Where this year we have had about 4-5 one sided games and we managed to reach a win-able position in 4-5 games. And here lies the key factor. Whatmore was a great coach, turned a below associate level team into a real threat to heavyweight teams. But our consistency was horrible in that period. A great victory was often followed by utter embarrassment in the next games.
This team may not have a favorable win record, but they are a much better bunch and they are a more competitive team than before.
Along with several things that should be improved by Jamie, a few things he did right. First of all he gave us few test-class batsmen. It's not entirely his fault that when one of them performs the other decides to go on hibernation. I am pretty sure Jamie doesn't say this in the pre-game chats " if Tamim scores today, Mushy, Riyadh, don't bother scoring. OK?" Neither does he say " get a 100 and a 5fer, but don't win the match"
But bowling has certainly gone downhill, and fast too. Except Shakib and Shafiul. I don't think any other bowler would make the Ireland/Zim cricket team atm. We are currently over-Dependant on left arm spin, something needs to done to ensure our next national spinner is not a SLA, even if that means picking the 2nd best option. And we will have to be contained with our pace bowling options, unless we develop better pitches, we will always be struggling to find decent pacers.
Also, Jamie has to look at players outside the national 15. He keeps saying Ashraful has no alternatives, where players like Jahurul, Faisal, Farhad, Nazim are waiting for their chances.
Another thing Bangladesh team should do, is grow some ba**s at times. One thing my captain always said, ever after we scored 100-120. "It was hard to score the runs and we are gonna make it harder for them and gonna win this thing". Self belief is crucial, no matter in which position we are in, we should ALWAYS look for the win.

Sorry for the prolonged post, but I think people are over-reacting to the Asia Cup performance, we all know the team is better than this. With the reduction of a few dead-weights aka Ashraful. And addition of some new kids, I am sure this team can make the top tier G9.

Neel Here
June 19, 2010, 11:38 AM
the recent performances were starkly without any fighting spirit whatsoever. could it have anything to do with a dead-weight like ash's continued presence in the team, as if he owns the damn team ?

Miraz
June 19, 2010, 11:43 AM
That was only once, against #9 ranked side. Under Siddons, we won 2 matches against full strength top 8 sides as well.

During Siddons era, our minnow bashing record has been equally good or better, and performance against full strength top 8 sides hasn't worsened. Fact

Yap, wins against Australia, South Africa and India away from home are equal to wins against 7th ranked New Zealand and 6th ranked Sri Lanka at home. Fact.

I don't expect better arguments from the pro-Siddons camp.

Miraz
June 19, 2010, 11:46 AM
This team may not have a favorable win record, but they are a much better bunch and they are a more competitive team than before.
.

Tired with this argument. This is coming out of Siddons mouth right from the beginning. Success at international sports is measured by win. Nothing less and nothing more.

What better? a better batting average of 0.34 runs per wicket? Huh!! Much ado for nothing.

Zeeshan
June 19, 2010, 11:47 AM
Some much needed well written strong words Miraz bhai. Negative mindset got nobody nowhere. And as for Siddon lovers saying that he did a great job in batting department....well first of all only guy who is in form of batting is Tamim Iqbal and amar jana mote he rectified his fault with Salahuddin clocking in countless hours in the net. It's not as if under Siddon's tutelage he somehow miraculously metamorphosed into what he is today. Unless you Sid lovers can give me strong evidence of his direct influence to batting I remain convinced otherwise.

Spitfire_x86
June 19, 2010, 11:51 AM
Yap, wins against Australia, South Africa and India away from home are equal to wins against 7th ranked New Zealand and 6th ranked Sri Lanka at home. Fact.
How many ODIs we won at home against top #8 teams during Whatmore era? One. Under Siddons, Two.

Miraz
June 19, 2010, 11:53 AM
How many ODIs we won at home against top #8 teams during Whatmore era? One. Under Siddons, Two.

Getting better. Hahaha!! Well done.

Now, can you please tell me how many ODIs we managed to win away from home?

A big zero.

Spitfire_x86
June 19, 2010, 11:55 AM
Getting better. Hahaha!! Well done.

Now, can you please tell me how many ODIs we managed to win away from home?

A big zero.
Whatmore was coach for 4 years, Siddons hasn't even completed 3 years yet.

Miraz
June 19, 2010, 11:57 AM
Whatmore was coach for 4 years, Siddons hasn't even completed 3 years yet.

For your information, we played more ODIs against top 8 nations away from home under Siddons in this 3 year compared to Whatmore's 4 year.

Miraz
June 19, 2010, 12:01 PM
And pro-Siddons camp, Whatmore failed to achieve (although he fared much better than Siddons) cannot be used as an excuse to cover-up Siddons's failure. We are more experienced now, have better group of players and are expected to do better. Siddons is miserably failing even to match Whatmore.

Matching Whatmore would have counted as failure, and failing to match Whatmore is simply disaster.

thebest
June 19, 2010, 12:10 PM
why spitty on all other siddons apologist are comparing DW with JS. JS has much better foundation; better core players. DW had only two international class player in Rafiq and HB, coming after a disastrous WC. He built the core of current team. Tamim, Mushy, Sakib, Mash all are developed in DW era. Dont tell me selector's crap. DW showed how to deal with crap players when selectors forced them to take a player. (Alok against SL in bogra, send him at 9 and did not bowl). BTW this is the worst set of selectors we have; the beat the Oliur led selectors

ma_o_mati
June 19, 2010, 12:12 PM
i think siddons has killed the spirit of the team. The belief that you can win is dead.

al-Sagar
June 19, 2010, 12:13 PM
mishu, a coach is there for a reason and a coach can make a lot of difference in mindset and attitude of players in international sports. Mindset and attitude is at least 50% in international sports and the rest is played on the field.

Bangladesh cricket itself can be a prime example here. Mohsin Kamal and Ali Zia combo failed to win a single match in internartional cricket (Zimbabwe and Kenya included), the same group of players under Dav Whatmore won 18 out of 22 matches against the same opposition. Want more proof?

absolutely spot on.

current players are capable of achieving a lot than the players of what more era. bt our problem has been mindset and attitude. we have no plans, a team goal when we play. just player go out and try to score runs for himself without thinking what team needs

mishu
June 19, 2010, 12:15 PM
For your information, we played more ODIs against top 8 nations away from home under Siddons in this 3 year compared to Whatmore's 4 year.

anyways you can not compare these things, if this is the case than you know, everyone in team is tired as we are playing non stop for loooong time, we are taking most test games into five days,, give the players some rest to recuperate mentally,,

this is what in my opinion we have to do :

- get a good bowling coach.
-get new quality spinners in team, as we do have them...
- our players are doing bad now against spin, as we are focusing too much on pace.. they have to change this again..
- Ash has to go
- player have to be promoted for their performances, when they do perform..
- Give players who perform in A team chance (we need Rock back in the team to his position, and bring nazimuddin)
- continue giving new talent chance, as we waste wickets anyway, untill we find the right players to develop,..

anyways my last post, lol

Nadim
June 19, 2010, 12:17 PM
the only thing JS says to out player is "play your natural game":floor:

This apply in every single format and every single situation...

I won't mind to have him as a batting coach but head coach.a big no:mad:

al-Sagar
June 19, 2010, 12:17 PM
i think siddons has done all he can done .... we need somebody new who can refresh our mindset and take us the next step.

he wanted to make us competative. we are a bit more. he wanted players to get better personal achievements, we are getting a bit frequently.

but i dont think he cant take us any more further but these player can actually go further.

we need a change ...

Spitfire_x86
June 19, 2010, 12:19 PM
Solid stats time. Both of us are wrong on some counts.

Whatmore against top #8 @ home (http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=2;filter=advanced;home_or_away=1; opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition= 4;opposition=5;opposition=6;opposition=7;oppositio n=8;orderby=start;spanmax1=30+Apr+2007;spanmin1=23 +Mar+2003;spanval1=span;team=25;template=results;t ype=team;view=results)- played 19, won 2, lost 17, success 10.52%
Siddons against top #8 @ home (http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=2;filter=advanced;home_or_away=1; opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition= 4;opposition=5;opposition=6;opposition=7;oppositio n=8;orderby=start;spanmax1=19+Jun+2010;spanmin1=1+ Nov+2007;spanval1=span;team=25;template=results;ty pe=team;view=results) - played 17, won 2, lost 15, success 11.76%

Whatmore against top #8 @ away/neutral (http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=2;filter=advanced;home_or_away=2; home_or_away=3;opposition=1;opposition=2;oppositio n=3;opposition=4;opposition=5;opposition=6;opposit ion=7;opposition=8;orderby=start;spanmax1=30+Apr+2 007;spanmin1=23+Mar+2003;spanval1=span;team=25;tem plate=results;type=team;view=resultshttp://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=2;filter=advanced;home_or_away=2; home_or_away=3;opposition=1;opposition=2;oppositio n=3;opposition=4;opposition=5;opposition=6;opposit ion=7;opposition=8;orderby=start;spanmax1=30+Apr+2 007;spanmin1=23+Mar+2003;spanval1=span;team=25;tem plate=results;type=team;view=results)- played 35, won 3, lost 32, success 8.57%
Siddons against top #8 (- understrength WI) @ away/neutral (http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=2;filter=advanced;home_or_away=2; home_or_away=3;opposition=1;opposition=2;oppositio n=3;opposition=5;opposition=6;opposition=7;opposit ion=8;orderby=start;spanmin1=1+Nov+2007;spanval1=s pan;team=25;template=results;type=team;view=result s) - played 23, won 0, lost 22, success 0%

al-Sagar
June 19, 2010, 12:19 PM
the only thing JS says to out player is "play your natural game":floor:

This apply in every single format and every single situation...

I won't mind to have him as a batting coach but head coach.a big no:mad:

in that case i dont think ash is listening to him recently.

we saw nothing natural from ash in last two games.

beshideshi
June 19, 2010, 12:20 PM
Tired with this argument. This is coming out of Siddons mouth right from the beginning. Success at international sports is measured by win. Nothing less and nothing more.

What better? a better batting average of 0.34 runs per wicket? Huh!! Much ado for nothing.

As I wrote on my post, the runs/wicket during 2004-2007 may have been boosted by the Zim/ken games. And Zim were a really weak team in that period. Unless one does a g8 comparison, it's hard to judge. btw, Bangladesh highest totals (http://stats.cricinfo.com/bangladesh/engine/records/team/highest_innings_totals.html?class=2;id=25;type=tea m). Check out how many of the top scores were achieved in the 2007-2010 era.

zman
June 19, 2010, 12:22 PM
Look at the bright side...at least the LA Lakers beat their nemesis Boston Celtics in a classic seven game series of the NBA finals and Kobe Bryant won the MVP award. Yes, Lakers are the champions again.

Oh! my bad...that doesn't really help our national team's cause...but anyway if I can think of anything positive I'll be sure to post

Nadim
June 19, 2010, 12:23 PM
in that case i dont think ash is listening to him recently.

we saw nothing natural from ash in last two games.

Does Ashraful even listen to any1?? JS to durer kotha...

ma_o_mati
June 19, 2010, 12:33 PM
after 3 yrs the team was supposed to go forward, not backward

Moon
June 19, 2010, 12:34 PM
Miraz your desperation is showing again u had to wait 2years for this post didn't u. Lists
we r experimenting still w team combination. I will take these embarrasing losses for a strong wc team. I mean what exactly do u want now fire Siddons Lola get real man
<br />Posted via BC Mobile Edition (iPhone)

Miraz
June 19, 2010, 12:50 PM
Miraz your desperation is showing again u had to wait 2years for this post didn't u. Lists
we r experimenting still w team combination. I will take these embarrasing losses for a strong wc team. I mean what exactly do u want now fire Siddons Lola get real man

Posted via BC Mobile Edition (iPhone)

I never wanted to write this type of post again. it's my and whole Bangladesh fans misfortune that I had to write this post.

No, I do not want to sack Siddons now, we missed the chance in 2009. However, I want to make Siddons accountable. I want him to take resposnsibility for his failure and try to ditch his personal improvement appraoch. We must put team first ahead of any personal goal. All is not lost, we can still turn the corner, but a change in coaching approach is required.

nahaz
June 19, 2010, 01:00 PM
Solid stats time. Both of us are wrong on some counts.

Whatmore against top #8 @ home (http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=2;filter=advanced;home_or_away=1; opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition= 4;opposition=5;opposition=6;opposition=7;oppositio n=8;orderby=start;spanmax1=30+Apr+2007;spanmin1=23 +Mar+2003;spanval1=span;team=25;template=results;t ype=team;view=results)- played 19, won 2, lost 17, success 10.52%
Siddons against top #8 @ home (http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=2;filter=advanced;home_or_away=1; opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition= 4;opposition=5;opposition=6;opposition=7;oppositio n=8;orderby=start;spanmax1=19+Jun+2010;spanmin1=1+ Nov+2007;spanval1=span;team=25;template=results;ty pe=team;view=results) - played 17, won 2, lost 15, success 11.76%

Whatmore against top #8 @ away/neutral (http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=2;filter=advanced;home_or_away=2; home_or_away=3;opposition=1;opposition=2;oppositio n=3;opposition=4;opposition=5;opposition=6;opposit ion=7;opposition=8;orderby=start;spanmax1=30+Apr+2 007;spanmin1=23+Mar+2003;spanval1=span;team=25;tem plate=results;type=team;view=resultshttp://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=2;filter=advanced;home_or_away=2; home_or_away=3;opposition=1;opposition=2;oppositio n=3;opposition=4;opposition=5;opposition=6;opposit ion=7;opposition=8;orderby=start;spanmax1=30+Apr+2 007;spanmin1=23+Mar+2003;spanval1=span;team=25;tem plate=results;type=team;view=results)- played 35, won 3, lost 32, success 8.57%
Siddons against top #8 (- understrength WI) @ away/neutral (http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=2;filter=advanced;home_or_away=2; home_or_away=3;opposition=1;opposition=2;oppositio n=3;opposition=5;opposition=6;opposition=7;opposit ion=8;orderby=start;spanmin1=1+Nov+2007;spanval1=s pan;team=25;template=results;type=team;view=result s) - played 23, won 0, lost 22, success 0%

Conclusion: Bottom line we are still really really crap. There is not much difference between 8% and 0%. We should have been into WC mode by now...I'm really worried now we'll end up with 0 wins from the WC. Jamie better not say we came within 15 runs in one game...I have a feeling he'll say that too. Jamie's approach was to build up for the future...3 years later this IS the future. If we haven't improved at all by now, in terms of results, we never will. We need fresh ideas after WC. Another 4 years wasted. Four years of my life wasted too following ppl who themselves dont believe they can win.

There isn't so much difference between us and the top 8 in individual player quality anymore. We still lose.Sad, really.

ahnaf
June 19, 2010, 01:31 PM
Some much needed well written strong words Miraz bhai. Negative mindset got nobody nowhere. And as for Siddon lovers saying that he did a great job in batting department....well first of all only guy who is in form of batting is Tamim Iqbal and amar jana mote he rectified his fault with Salahuddin clocking in countless hours in the net. It's not as if under Siddon's tutelage he somehow miraculously metamorphosed into what he is today. Unless you Sid lovers can give me strong evidence of his direct influence to batting I remain convinced otherwise.

bro.. Salahuddin akjon fielding coach.. Salahuddin r kotha tamim shudu akbar boleche.. Jhokon india r against e tamim151 kore tarpor bolchilo je uni tamim k gontar por gonta bowl kore gechen jate tamim sweep shot e durbolota katate pare.. Ata bade o shobsomoy js r nam ullekh koreche..

M.H.Rubel
June 19, 2010, 01:39 PM
This thread is only about ODI but to me performance of Tests shoulde be taken more importantly than ODI.Definately our test performance has improved a lot.
To me DW and JS both has come to Bangladesh in wrong time.A technical coach like JS is more neede in primitive stage of the team.But once your players have grabbed the basics then you need a high profile performance coach just to boost up the team performance.Main problem with DW was,he was a good coach for high skilled players but not for learners.
In an interview Ash said that he (DW) never showed me how to bat and what will be my technique to handle the ball in different situations.
There are lot of people here are thinking DW was better but as he never showed technique to our batsman he was never a good coach for Bangladesh but may be he is a good coach for Kolkata Knight Rider formed by players having basic skills.
<br />Posted via BC Mobile Edition

Tigers_eye
June 19, 2010, 01:44 PM
Coach has a lot to do I will give in to that but...
...
Bangladesh cricket itself can be a prime example here. Mohsin Kamal and Ali Zia combo failed to win a single match in internartional cricket (Zimbabwe and Kenya included), the same group of players under Dav Whatmore won 18 out of 22 matches against the same opposition. Want more proof?
Easy there. Same group of player and same opposition?
+++
What Siddons has done will stay with us for along time provided these players stick around a little longer. What whatmore did went with.

Aftab and Co can't be compared with the current lot. Seriously, the 2003 squad won't stand a chance either.

The Board's hotheadedness has contributed dearly to our progress. 1) Let going Mo Rafique 2) Not sticking with KMashud a little longer in the longer format. He need one or two seniors (experienced) in every team to show the ropes. Like Johnston, Tikolo and as such.

ahnaf
June 19, 2010, 01:48 PM
I never wanted to write this type of post again. it's my and whole Bangladesh fans misfortune that I had to write this post.

No, I do not want to sack Siddons now, we missed the chance in 2009. However, I want to make Siddons accountable. I want him to take resposnsibility for his failure and try to ditch his personal improvement appraoch. We must put team first ahead of any personal goal. All is not lost, we can still turn the corner, but a change in coaching approach is required.

miraz bro.. Tmi bar bar vule jaccho wc r ager 2 yr e blte shbgula bd r shb khelai zim,kenya adr against e cilo.. R ha.. Js r whatmore e r moddhe akta boro differece ki jano akn bd evry match jetar jonno khele bt whatmore shudu fluck r ashay bshe thakto.. U may laugh.. Exmple dicchi.. Ctg test e whatmore thakakalin smy e last day te 60 ovr e only 250+ run drkar chilo bt whatmore bole amdr ai saddho nai so match ta drw hycilo..arkta dei akbar ash,aftab mcgrath k mere out hye firle whatmore ki blcilo janen?? Tmra kon sahose oke marte gecho? Je world r best bowler dr akjn... Lol.. Ata jodi akjn coach r dorshon hy bowler r nam bujhe khela thle r ki blbo.. O r bla ucit cilo jeta mara ota marte... R js media te negative kotha blte bt im sure team k o alwaz jetar jonno khelte ble.. Akbar Sa may 400+ krcilo oneday te.. Tamim thkn o ai tamim hy nai.. Bt 1st 15 ovr bd jevabe khelche ota dhekei bujha giyecilo tara jetar jonno khelche jodi hare.. Ata amr kotha na.. Whtmore erar captain Habibul bashar r kotha... Whatmore hole ki blto player dr janen.. Kono drkar nai mere khelar.. Tmra ata parba na.. Ajk tmdr din na... Whatmore ashay thakto wait krto kondin luck amdr favr e ashbe... Kondin amdr din ashbe.. Bt JS chay evryday amdr din hok.. O kono eid day r jonno opekkha kre na.. Evryday jate eid day hy tai o chay.. Kontake apni valo blben? Nijer vaggo nije gore neyar pokkhe naki vaggo o dike vikharir moto cheye thaka ke??

al Furqaan
June 19, 2010, 02:00 PM
a few things to mention.

1) i'm a pretty big, Siddons fan. or at least was, even coming into this Asia Cup. I am starting to re-consider. but its still too early to tell for a fact. at the same time its hard to argue with Miraz bhai's stats.

2) our failing can definitely be attributed to negative mindset. now the negative mindset issues centers around Ashraful. is the team being defeatist because they know they cannot win no matter how great a start Tamim and the other opener gives us, because as soon as Ashraful enters he will drop the run rate with his selfishly ultra-slow play? or is Ashraful playing slowly because the team has the "can't win" mindset?

one thing is clear...Ashraful is not the inconsistent game-breaker he once was. Ashraful was Jake Plummer once upon a time. talented, with mediocre numbers, but won games in amazing fashion like only great players can do. but he hasn't done that in over 3 years. its been almost 2 years since his last decent, potentially match winning knock against a major side (that 73 in South Africa, where he and Shakib should have won us the game).

He needs to take time off from his game for at least a full year, but Bangladeshi domestic leagues are probably not the best place to hone one's skills.

3) our World Cup and Whatmore success was built upon "bowling", not batting. our totals in our big wins are 250, 251, 229, 212, 192. defending or restricting to those kind of scores sans a minefield is tough. but we did it.

we had mortaza, who has been out of sorts this Asia Cup, and i expect him to bounce back soon. remember he's been out for pretty much over a year.

we had rasel, who has been in and out of the side, and Siddons drops him after the asia cup i will seriously be pissed. if rasel is healthy he needs to play until he has several bad games in a row. rubel (not yet at least) and dollar are not the f**king answer!

we had rafique who could give us 10 solid overs, and razzak too.

thats 40 solid overs, and so even if the 5th bowler(s) goes at 6 or even 7 an over, you've done well.

this asia cup, only sakib and shafiul have bowled with any semblance of solidity.

4) so our problems for a while now have been lack of a single coherent bowling attack, and too much flux therein. traditional opening and top order woes, which have recently subsided only to see even worse performance by the middle order. and of course defeatist captaincy by every skipper from bashar to ashraful, and now to shakib himself.

Conclusion:

i think the first 3 problems will be solved by themselves and soon enough. heck, you might see a better batting performance in England come July. i definitely think the batting is just going through one of those growing pains, especially once Ash is removed, we should be smoother. the bowling issue worries me because i feel JS will drop rasel at the slightest excuse, and because rasel himself hasn't helped his cause by being injured 80% of the time after the world cup.

however the final problem of taking a defeatist "we'll bowl first on a belter" mindset does not show any signs of going away. the only players who right now are playing to win are Tamim, and surprisingly Junaid and possibly Imrul as well.

But like before we had Ash and Shakib in the "lets go and win this match" category, they aren't in it anymore. This is why we've been so fruitless the past couple of years.

ahnaf
June 19, 2010, 02:02 PM
This thread is only about ODI but to me performance of Tests shoulde be taken more importantly than ODI.Definately our test performance has improved a lot.
To me DW and JS both has come to Bangladesh in wrong time.A technical coach like JS is more neede in primitive stage of the team.But once your players have grabbed the basics then you need a high profile performance coach just to boost up the team performance.Main problem with DW was,he was a good coach for high skilled players but not for learners.
In an interview Ash said that he (DW) never showed me how to bat and what will be my technique to handle the ball in different situations.
There are lot of people here are thinking DW was better but as he never showed technique to our batsman he was never a good coach for Bangladesh but may be he is a good coach for Kolkata Knight Rider formed by players having basic skills.
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gud point.. Whatmore khokono kono player k nije kaj kore ni.. Jeta js kre.. Whtmre pray 6 mas ash r sathe kothai ble nai wc r age ash r khela kharap hytese tai.. Ai dhoroner coach valo team r jono valo bt a weak side lyk us ata harmful..
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Miraz
June 19, 2010, 02:31 PM
Ahnaf and others, Whatmore's reference is here just for comparison's sake nothing else. Whatmore failed in some respect, nobody is denying that, but that does not make up excuses for Jamie Siddons's utter failure to succeed with a much better team.

T_E bhai, with the current mindset this bunch of players will stand no chance against the spirited but mediocre Whatmore led Bangladesh side of 2005-2007.

Current side will have more centuries and more fifties thats for sure, but they will happily sit on the losing side while the whatmore side will collectively win 10 out of 10 times.

Equinox
June 19, 2010, 02:55 PM
^You're joking right? The fact is the way the game is played has changed since 2005. All teams have improved since then. We too have improved but at a much slower rate than the other teams. Whatmore's team was programmed for 1-2 wins a year and the rest of the matches resulted in embarrassing defeats. This team may not get the wins but they do not get humiliated (barring this series; which I genuinely believe is because of fatigue, not playing ODIs for a long time and coming back from completely different conditions and being unable to adjust) like their predecessors. At best Whatmore's team could have have stolen 3-4 matches but this team would outclass Whatmore's team. Under Whatmore a lot of players (HaBa, SN, Rafique, Ash, Mash, Razzak) reached their peak at around the same time. This has yet to happen to Siddons' bunch (I believe Shakib can better his 2009 performance and Tamim can as well).

Miraz
June 19, 2010, 02:59 PM
Equinox, I am not joking. Your thought process is clouded by the so-called improvement curve of Jamie Siddoons. With his approach, we will be never able to match the progress of other teams and we will never able to win matches. We will see some individual improvements here and there but as you mentioned in your post, the gap will be always there if not widening already.

al Furqaan
June 19, 2010, 03:09 PM
the grass is always greener on the other side.

no doubt the whatmore side had more successes, but perhaps we're overhyping it a bit.

siddons' teams have scored bigger runs, individually and team-wise. our highest totals have been in the siddons era. also whatmore teams were perpetually bundled under 150 in ODIs and under 200 in Tests. thats a rarity in siddons' team.

the problem is our bowling has gone down hill.

ahnaf
June 19, 2010, 03:25 PM
Equinox, I am not joking. Your thought process is clouded by the so-called improvement curve of Jamie Siddoons. With his approach, we will be never able to match the progress of other teams and we will never able to win matches. We will see some individual improvements here and there but as you mentioned in your post, the gap will be always there if not widening already.
im sorry for using banglish.. Post edit korechi bro..

Miraz
June 19, 2010, 03:33 PM
al Furqaan, just mentioning few scores against top 8 nations


238/9, 250/7, 251/8, 192/5 (WC 2007), 265/9, 213/9, 232/6, 220/6, 250/8, 250/5, 257/9, 234/8, 229/9, 244/7, 230/9, 222/8

I think Siddons era we did not have much bigger score against top 8 nations. If you look at the runs per wicket, you will get the idea.

Getting less embarassed? Losing matches continously is enough embarassing. We had couple of wins here and there during Whatmore era to cover up few embarassments. Now we try to hide our embarassment by pointing relatively better margin of defeats.

yap, that's improvement to some people.

Miraz
June 19, 2010, 03:34 PM
Ahnaf, can you please write either in Bangla or in English. It's very difficult to read those Banglish posts. Thanks.

alibangali
June 19, 2010, 04:04 PM
We are not judged by how many runs/wickets we lost by but the win/loss ratio.
No one but us fans remember how much we lost this match by or that match by, others will just look at it as a loss.
We are expected to show improvement by increasing our wins/loss ratio as we continue to play more and more international cricket which we have failed. Siddons job is not to improve the batting of a few but as head coach improve this win/loss ratio which we should have been increasing year by year.

Looking from an outsiders perspective we are still the same rubbish team as that team that included those mediocre players but the tag has changed from "players with limited skill" to "talented young players". The fact is we needed a head coach which improves the team and our record.

Jamie siddons is a big NO as a head coach.

After the world cup we need to bring someone else in. We can't give jamie the players he wants so its better if we can get someone who can get the best out of the crappy players that we have.

zman
June 19, 2010, 04:15 PM
Ahnaf, can you please write either in Bangla or in English. It's very difficult to read those Banglish posts. Thanks.
For me even his Banglish isn't the main problem. I've been reading/writing Bangla ever since I was a little kid and even I have a hard time understanding his abbreviations and contractions, i.e. thle=tahole, shbsmy=shobshomoy, and such. Takes too much time to read. Can't imagine how difficult it must be for our foreign born Bangladeshi brothers n sisters to decipher.

MohammedC
June 19, 2010, 05:44 PM
I dont know what to say. I am pro siddons but if getting rid off him makes our team even better than do it. And those who dont want to sack him because WC2011 is just round the corner, you need wake up because we dont stand a chance of winning a single match even against Ireland.

al Furqaan
June 19, 2010, 06:00 PM
al Furqaan, just mentioning few scores against top 8 nations


238/9, 250/7, 251/8, 192/5 (WC 2007), 265/9, 213/9, 232/6, 220/6, 250/8, 250/5, 257/9, 234/8, 229/9, 244/7, 230/9, 222/8

I think Siddons era we did not have much bigger score against top 8 nations. If you look at the runs per wicket, you will get the idea.

Getting less embarassed? Losing matches continously is enough embarassing. We had couple of wins here and there during Whatmore era to cover up few embarassments. Now we try to hide our embarassment by pointing relatively better margin of defeats.

yap, that's improvement to some people.

next week when i have some time, i will make a scatter plot of siddons vs whatmore era team totals against G8 sides. i think that will illuminate some more.

for the record, i'm not disagreeing with you, but i think we are jerking our knees a bit.

i'm going to create a poll right now on our 4 matches against associate sides thats coming up to illustrate a few things.

Mridul
June 19, 2010, 06:01 PM
We enjoyed a relatively successful period in ODI cricket from June 2003 to May 2007 (The Whatmore era of Bangladesh cricket). This is the period when Bangladesh distanced themselves from Zimbabwe, Kenya and all other associates. They also managed wins against Australia, Sri Lanka, India and South Africa in ODI and against West Indies in T20. Here's the performance record

<TABLE class=engineTable><CAPTION>

</CAPTION><THEAD><TR class=head><TH class=left noWrap>

</TH><TH class=left title="playing span" noWrap>Span</TH><TH title="matches played" noWrap>Mat</TH><TH title="matches won" noWrap>Won</TH><TH title="matches lost" noWrap>Lost</TH><TH title="matches tied" noWrap>Tied</TH><TH title="matches with no result" noWrap>NR</TH><TH title="win/loss ratio" noWrap>W/L</TH><TH title="average runs per wicket" noWrap>Ave</TH><TH title="average runs per six balls" noWrap>RPO</TH><TH title="highest team score" noWrap>HS</TH><TH title="lowest completed score" noWrap>LS</TH></TR></THEAD><TBODY></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE class=engineTable><TBODY><TR class=data1><TD class=left>filtered</TD><TD class=left noWrap>2003-2007</TD><TD>86</TD><TD>33</TD><TD>53</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0.62</TD><TD>24.41</TD><TD>4.36</TD><TD>301</TD><TD>86</TD><TD>

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
We scored 24.41 runs per wicket with much less capable players than the current bunch who burst into the scene right at the end of the Whatmore era.

Siddons took charge, dismissed Bangladesh's success at the world level as fluke and promised a lot. Those who are following Bangladesh cricket for long enough cannot forget the painful Mohsin Kamal "Sidha khelo" era. He simply brought back those memories with countless defeats. Bangladesh did not win a single match against top eight nations in the first 15 months in charge. After couple of wins against New Zealand and Sri Lanka (barring win against weakened West Indies), Bangladesh kept losing in every ODI they played.

This is his record since taking charge of Bangladesh cricket (including wins against the associates).

<TABLE class=engineTable><CAPTION>

</CAPTION><THEAD><TR class=head><TH class=left noWrap>

</TH><TH class=left title="playing span" noWrap>Span</TH><TH title="matches played" noWrap>Mat</TH><TH title="matches won" noWrap>Won</TH><TH title="matches lost" noWrap>Lost</TH><TH title="matches tied" noWrap>Tied</TH><TH title="matches with no result" noWrap>NR</TH><TH title="win/loss ratio" noWrap>W/L</TH><TH title="average runs per wicket" noWrap>Ave</TH><TH title="average runs per six balls" noWrap>RPO</TH><TH title="highest team score" noWrap>HS</TH><TH title="lowest completed score" noWrap>LS</TH></TR></THEAD><TBODY></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE class=engineTable><TBODY><TR class=data1><TD class=left>filtered</TD><TD class=left noWrap>2007-2010</TD><TD>63</TD><TD>19</TD><TD>44</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0.43</TD><TD>24.74</TD><TD>4.55</TD><TD>320</TD><TD>74</TD><TD>

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
The overall win loss ratio dipped from 0.62 to 0.43. Runs per wicket remained almost same (24.74 versus 24.41). So where is the improvement except losing more matches?

A lot of siddons fan want to point out towards overall improvement in the batting department as his major success. A difference of only 0.43 runs per wicket cannot be considered significant let alone a success. And we have to also consider the gradual decline of bowling department despite the presence of a specialist bowling coach. With wins dried out and in the middle of a 12 match losing streak (which for sure will extend to at least 16 matches, if not more) I am sorry I cannot see the improvement. I can only see the downward spiral. The decline of Bangladesh cricket.

He failed to capitalise on the success of Bangladesh cricket and leading the decline of bangladesh cricket. All he can do better is some useless and rubiish media pep talk where he blames anything and everything for the failure except taking some blame on himself.

I am sure he will be in charge until 2011 world cup where Bangladesh will repeat a World Cup 2003 performance on home soil. he will depart leaving Bangladesh to the same place and we will need another Whatmore to change the defeatist attitude of the current bunch of players.

Even Boycott's grandmother could have done better with the current bunch of players.


In reality Bangladesh sucks...out players sucks...the whole world can see the quality of our players...other than Tamim no one is consistant....Afghanistan can also beat us now easily

I think coach can only manage and guide....and to teach a player cricket....it needs to be done from under age level.....our players have very limited shots and they can only play in limited condition.....I actually do not see any future for our cricket unless until we really do something in our domestic and under age level....until we follow a proper development plan...we will see same result over and over again....the collapse we used to see in 90s....we still see them again....and not only once or twice....it has become regular

Dilscoop
June 19, 2010, 06:16 PM
All that talk from pro-Siddions about how he improved our batting and everything. We should be scoring 270-300 every time then? I am not a pro or anti Siddons, but all I know that he is not good enough to handle the head coach position. May be he did improve our batting, may be he didnt, but we can all agree that he isn't a head coach material. And we need a head coach...

unda_bhai
June 19, 2010, 08:46 PM
if i was a player id be disgusted at how coaches get bashed here. u dont know jak sh*t bout wat the coach sees and does with players, the coach of bd gets nothing he asks for, and also the basic nature of bangladeshis is to make life difficult n fail at everything. coach this coach that. why dnt u go coach the team then.

our paki traits never left did it. always point the finger. remember, for every finger u point...theres 3 pointing bak. lifes hard at the moment for bd as a whole. u cant single anyone out. they failed as a team. n thats that.

bujhee kom
June 19, 2010, 09:33 PM
I feel and share Miraz bhai's pain and I agree with him every points he raised.

I think our players do not understand the coach due to poor understanding and I think there is a huge gap(Faraak) of language barrier here!! I also think we, our players in general are not very fighting minded and we are very easily satisfied with very small fortune/success/reward. They are not really understanding their role, responsibility or job expectation. They lack basic professional attitude and general physical and mental stamina. That brings up another thing, our lack of usage/practice of sport psychologist, Psycho-therapists and sport medicine in general which is one of the many reasons we are in such deephole!.

I also think that people/I do run out of patience and although I have great faith in Coach Siddons and I support him with all my heart, it must be clear to the Coach that it is after all your failure, your responsibility to steer this team's learning curve up, I do not know how, you have to figure that out coach, that's why you are chosen for the job, and you accepted this responsibilty to teach and train this team! So please work harder and I wish you coach Siddons and team Tigers all my sinceremost prayers and good wishes! Salaam! :flag:

Zeeshan
June 19, 2010, 09:40 PM
if i was a player id be disgusted at how coaches get bashed here. u dont know jak sh*t bout wat the coach sees and does with players, the coach of bd gets nothing he asks for, and also the basic nature of bangladeshis is to make life difficult n fail at everything. coach this coach that. why dnt u go coach the team then.

our paki traits never left did it. always point the finger. remember, for every finger u point...theres 3 pointing bak. lifes hard at the moment for bd as a whole. u cant single anyone out. they failed as a team. n thats that.

And what exactly are you privileged to see first hand from the nets than convinces you otherwise Sir? :rolleyes:

beshideshi
June 19, 2010, 10:21 PM
Just another thing, I[or any Siddons fan] should not compare the Whatmore era with the current one. Things were a lot different before the T20 revolution, 250-260 on any pitch was a winnable score, where nowadays we have seen 296 chased down like it was 196.
We should judge JS on the current team's performance. I respect everyone's opinion, but I believe that we are two players short of being a real good team. And the current outburst is seriously over hyped by the Asia cup failure. If we can manage to pull off a victory against Pakistan, 95% of the people will change their views and start idolizing JS. And that perhaps shows the importance of a victory, which according to me is the main thing missing right now. A couple of wins, and all the performances will come together, the momentum will build up. The same group of players can turn into a different team when they start winning[pre WC 07]

M.H.Rubel
June 20, 2010, 01:17 AM
First of all Thanks Miraz for opening a good thread.But with that i am criticizing you as well due to putting the attention only towards ODI.Test performance was also necessary to count there.
1.If we compare both DW and JS: As Bangladesh is a developing country and our player lack technical soundness in that case first job of a coach should be to improve the technique.DW never tried to improve technique of our players so he was never ever a suitable coach for Bangladesh.But JS is trying to impove the technique and definately it is the right approach.
2.If we consider ODI performance DW and JS have almost same type of win loss ratio.But if your consider test definately JS has given lot of improvement in our test team.In that case i am bound to say JS is better coach than DW for Bangladesh.REMEMBER WE ALWAYS NEED A COACH WHO WILL DEAL THE TECHNICAL ISSUES, AS LOT OF OUR PLAYERS ARE TECHNICALLY FLAWED.
3.SO i have no doubt that for up JS is better coach than DW but the main thing is-Is JS a good head coach?
a.Siddons has a negative mind set some times in the 2nd or 3rd day of a test he say the game is already over it has huge impact on players and makes the player reluctant.
b.JS chose Aftab as a test batsman its very funny.He is also playing Razzak in tests.If you have lacking in one sector then you have to find a player but not that you will try with the old tested scrap.
c.Moral boost up and Psychological issue is very important in modern cricket. JS is a retarded in this sector.
4.DW was a very good strategy maker and JS is a very good technical coach who lacks strategy.But now what we need is some one who have both.So i wish a change in coaching department but after the WC.
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Miraz
June 20, 2010, 01:48 AM
Importance of technique is overstated in international cricket. Match temperament and right shot selection is much more important than technique.

Sehwag, Ganguly, Gayle and our Tamim do not have a great technique. Very little feet movement while playing away from body, but the first three belong to the lite class of the most successful batsmen of international cricket and Tamim will be there in time. On the other hand, Ashraful has a far superior technique, but he is rubbish in international cricket and with his current state of mind, he will always remain rubbish.

al Furqaan
June 20, 2010, 03:00 AM
Importance of technique is overstated in international cricket. Match temperament and right shot selection is much more important than technique.

Sehwag, Ganguly, Gayle and our Tamim do not have a great technique. Very little feet movement while playing away from body, but the first three belong to the lite class of the most successful batsmen of international cricket and Tamim will be there in time. On the other hand, Ashraful has a far superior technique, but he is rubbish in international cricket and with his current state of mind, he will always remain rubbish.

i already rate Tamim ahead of Chris Gayle...since they both average the same in test cricket, around 40. and Tamim has time to get that average up even higher. although gayle has maintained it for several years.

Baundule
June 20, 2010, 03:06 AM
It is not fair to compare neck-by-neck the stats between DW era and JS era. Siddons got a much better team with more capable players; but he destroyed the 'team' concept completely. Akram Khan's improbable win against the Netherlands (http://static.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1996-97/OTHERS+ICC/ICCT97/ICCT97-MATCHES/GROUP-F/BDESH_NL_ICCT_04APR1997.html) and then the Rain in the final of the ICC trophy (http://static.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1996-97/OTHERS+ICC/ICCT97/ICCT97-MATCHES/FINALS/BDESH_KENYA_ICCT-FINAL_12-13APR1997.html) paved our way towards the next big step in the world cricket. We were still a bat-50-over-score-180 team; but GG's coaching plus the fighters like Akram, Rafique, Nannu, Athar, Moni and Chacha gave us confidence and that is the only thing that helped us win against the Pakis in the 1999 world cup.

We were still not skilled enough; but the BCCI needed us and we got the test status.Things should have gone only better from there. We were receiving enough money, we were finding cricket as the most popular sport in Bangladesh and we were finding an influx of talented cricketer, who could very well compete on almost equal ground in the age level with the top teams.

I am not very satisfied with DW's era. He could have done better. It may be the board that crucified Greenidge or it may be some other factor that made him much less successful with us compared to SL. But his basic coaching style was perfect for us. He knew how to get the best out of the players. Motivation does miracles!

What Siddons did is just killed that motivation part. I think, he did not have any confidence on our team because of his ignorance. He started undermining the team so that he can virtually show that he had a much lower starting point than it actually was. He started changing players' basic playing style, he started dumping older players, because they are more difficult ones to change their basics.

He changed our goal of playing matches. He was setting the target of 240 runs than trying to win. He completely ignored the pitch factor. It certainly did not work. Afterwards, he found that a few of the talented influx like Shakib and Tamim were doing well. Then he switched to the personal improvement mantra. Shakib was a consistent performer at the U-19 level and he played reasonably well even in his very first ODI (http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/249207.html) for the national team. Tamim has a strong cricketing background and as far as I remember, he hit the touring English side all over the ground in a practice match. He was a murderer at the U-19 level. And now we have to give all credit to Siddons for the personal improvement of these players! What Shakib and Tamim are doing is just saving Siddons' *** by their own performance. As a nation, we are very short-sighted, Siddons knows it very well and it is easy for us to overlook the non-performance of 20 players for the sporadic performances of 3 or 4.

Siddons is good at talking, though. This Buchanan v2.0 fits very well as the media manager role than as a coach.

reyme
June 20, 2010, 03:06 AM
Kudos to Miraz Bhai!!!

1. To all Jamie Siddons FANS: make a statue to JS and worship that statue day and night. Unfortunaltely that staue does not have a brain and will not make you a millionaire, let alone a cricketer.
2. A spirited winning combination, a team coming out of pretty good success beating IND, SA under Whatmore all of a sudden becomes a laughingstock losing all forms of cricket non stop.
3. Some core players like Bashar, Rafiq, Mashud, Nafees, Alok were overlooked by JS leading their early retirement or exit from national team, leading the ICL fiasco.
4. Tamim, Shakib, Mushy, Riyadh were all rising star and core players under Whatmore. They were bound to develop and improve even if we had a Bangladeshi coach. Siddons probably showed a few move but takes all the credit every chance he gets.
5. After all these years he is yet to fix or replace Ashraful.
6. His captain is clueless, his gameplan is non existance, his coaching is questionable, he blames his own players openly in media, he says the team cant compete...my question is why he is there as a coach anyways then?

In summary: we have an inefficient, ineffective, lazy, losing minded coach that will take this team nowhere. After 2011 WC disaster he will be fired and will blame each and every single aspect of BD cricket including the cricket structure, the players, the media, the pitch, the facilities and unfortunately the so called Jamie Siddons lovers for not giving him enough love.

Unfortunately no other test nation will hire him and he will go back to where he belongs, some sort of an asst physio or trainer for some Australian Women's Team.

I wish he is gone today.

salin
June 20, 2010, 03:47 AM
Some of you may agree, soldier fight for the leader or for himself but never for the country. This Sid and Sak completely poisoned Ashraful's mind.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comhttp://banglacricket.com/alochona/ /><o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></P><P><FONT color=black><FONT face=It is disgusting to watch BD cricket these days. watching them in the field, feel like they don't know each other, individuality is clearly visible even in the field. Watching them in the dressing room and observing their body language, feel like watching my 'para goli' player's where i used to play. <o:p></o:p>
Para goli Example---- akjoner kandher uporay arekjoner hat, kaner kasay mukh niay fish fish koray kotha bola ..... <o:p></o:p>

Miraz
June 20, 2010, 04:19 AM
Top post Baundule.

Reyme, your 2,3,4,5 and 6 are spot on!!

Zeeshan
June 20, 2010, 04:56 AM
Why not 1?

Zeeshan
June 20, 2010, 04:58 AM
Anyways I think it's too late to sack him. As much his buoyant spirit may be detrimental for our team we should give him the axe after World Cup 2011. A poll with this thread would've been fantastic which would reflect -albeit open poll- how many and who are for Siddons... By the way, who do you think should be the one to take his position?

Miraz
June 20, 2010, 05:08 AM
Zeeshan, IPL is offering obscene amount of money to international coaches and it will be difficult ot attract a big name. I would have liked someone like Tom Moody who is renowened for his hard work and strong motivational skill, but with the decline of our cricket, it will be difficult to attract him.

I will try to lure Richard McInnes with a good amount of money. He still follows Bangladesh cricket and has a passion for his boys. I am willing to pay him double the salary he is getting as the coach of Australia women team. I hope he will come back.

iDumb
June 20, 2010, 05:15 AM
few bad matches and we are all blaming random people. Guys, it's been years since we haven't lost a test match by an innings... remember (beside the latest one). How quickly we forget. Stop just bringing up ODI performances only, if you want to judge - judge properly and as a package. Compare siddons and previous coaches in test arena also........BD only had a good 07 wc that's wat making ur whatmore guy look good but remember we lost to ireland.
The idea that siddon got better bunch of players is wrong... DW had Bashar, mashrafee, alok, ashraful, Rafiq, Pilot for years.. more than half of the team was Good.

Forget about tamim, just look at Imrul Kayes and then tell me if our coach has nothing to do with him or not. All of you wanted him kicked out... yet our management persisted with him, he still sucks in playing short pitch deliveries but l think he is becoming an integral part of the team.

Guys this asia cup is bulllshit.... this team will be a force to reckon with come 2011. Just watch.

Tamim, Imrul, Junaid and ashraful on song gives me saliva...

iDumb
June 20, 2010, 05:17 AM
Anyways I think it's too late to sack him...

why do you guys talk like this. Criticise his performance, be objective - don't jump to conclusion on what you need to do with him.

Miraz
June 20, 2010, 05:52 AM
We are still rubbish in Test cricket. Batting has improved but not as a team. If top order performs, middle order collapses. When top order collapse, middle order pops up the score to something respectable. No consistency is there. Bowling department has declined significantly barring Shakib.

We are still losing by big margin and not creating chances to win. We lost by bigger margins under Whatmore, but we created chances like Multan, Fatullah and Mirpur. We only had one close shout against New Zealand at home under Siddons.

It's the win/draw that matters as a record. The margin of losses can be consolation but it adds nothing to the record as a team.

beshideshi
June 20, 2010, 06:39 AM
I will try to lure Richard McInnes with a good amount of money. He still follows Bangladesh cricket and has a passion for his boys. I am willing to pay him double the salary he is getting as the coach of Australia women team. I hope he will come back.

If I am not mistaken a lot of the national team players came out of Richard's High performance unit. And i think he would be a tremendous coach, he is doing great things with the Aussie women's team. He is renowned for his innovative coaching style, but some say he is 3rd/4th in line for Australia's main job. So it would be incredibly hard to bring him to Bangladesh.

nsd3
June 20, 2010, 06:57 AM
I will try to lure Richard McInnes with a good amount of money. He still follows Bangladesh cricket and has a passion for his boys. I am willing to pay him double the salary he is getting as the coach of Australia women team. I hope he will come back.
I like the idea but will BCB be keen on him. I don't know why but I'm feeling BCB will not go his way.

nahaz
June 20, 2010, 07:14 AM
If I am not mistaken a lot of the national team players came out of Richard's High performance unit. And i think he would be a tremendous coach, he is doing great things with the Aussie women's team. He is renowned for his innovative coaching style, but some say he is 3rd/4th in line for Australia's main job. So it would be incredibly hard to bring him to Bangladesh.

As long as he's not the next in line, we can bring him back. Coaching a national team is an honour. RIchard is a hard-working challenge-loving guy, and he'd gladly come back to finish what he started- the Bangladesh Cricket Revolution. Jamie in character is more sub-continental, passing the blame to the next person, often his own team. RIchard has more of the Australian work ethic, no bulls, just hard work and desire to excel at his job.

Siddons is a good batting coach, but he's damaging the team and even the whole cricket spirit of the country. His idea of deconstructing and reconstructing players isn't working. Also there is definitely a Richard would take our offer over a role for the KKR/Punjab any day.

By the way, Miraz bhai, how exactly do you plan to lure Richard with money? You would need to convince Mr. President Kamal wouldn't you? Actually, if Rchard or Alistair is hired till WC2015 I have no problem in them starting now. Just be ready to hand Jamie a big redundancy package, possibly the whole pay for the remaining term. Although it still might be worth it..

zainab
June 20, 2010, 07:17 AM
Everyone here is bashing Siddons and the boys relentlessly, i feel sorry for these lads, but fans, pls take these factors into consideration, re the Asia Cup

They had to interrupt a tour where the weather was much cooler, they were getting used to the temperate weather and boucy wicket, their bodies had gotten used to the time change, then flying back east with a 8 to 9 hour time difference, hot and humid conditions, flat wicket, BIG contrast, India, Pak and SL were already at home and used to these conditions. After all, they are human. BD here are at the biggest disadvantage where the teams are concerned.
Now, these poor boys have to get in a plane and return west with another 8 to 9 hours time change, to cooler climate and bouncier wickets. It will take anoher week before their bodies can adjust, your bodies and brains react slower when you cross many time zones, and I think this is what has happened to them, they have been too lethargic, slow to think and react to situations.

Miraz
June 20, 2010, 07:56 AM
Everyone here is bashing Siddons and the boys relentlessly, i feel sorry for these lads, but fans, pls take these factors into consideration, re the Asia Cup

They had to interrupt a tour where the weather was much cooler, they were getting used to the temperate weather and boucy wicket, their bodies had gotten used to the time change, then flying back east with a 8 to 9 hour time difference, hot and humid conditions, flat wicket, BIG contrast, India, Pak and SL were already at home and used to these conditions. After all, they are human. BD here are at the biggest disadvantage where the teams are concerned.
Now, these poor boys have to get in a plane and return west with another 8 to 9 hours time change, to cooler climate and bouncier wickets. It will take anoher week before their bodies can adjust, your bodies and brains react slower when you cross many time zones, and I think this is what has happened to them, they have been too lethargic, slow to think and react to situations.

Good excuses. Siddons might actually use them after the Asia Cup. we can put forward countless excuses for our failures, but these are as good as excuses.

International teams (in every sport) are doing similar things and succeding regularly. If they fail, they go down fighting. Our boys showed completely inept attitude and played like sunday league amateurs. Keeping them in the same time zone for months wouldn't have changed much.

The problem is in the attitude, they way they approach the game. There is no plan B or backup plan (although I doubt whether there is any plan at all!!).

I haven't seen such unimaginative display even from the lowly ranked associates.

beshideshi
June 20, 2010, 07:57 AM
As long as he's not the next in line, we can bring him back. Coaching a national team is an honour. RIchard is a hard-working challenge-loving guy, and he'd gladly come back to finish what he started- the Bangladesh Cricket Revolution. Jamie in character is more sub-continental, passing the blame to the next person, often his own team. RIchard has more of the Australian work ethic, no bulls, just hard work and desire to excel at his job.

Siddons is a good batting coach, but he's damaging the team and even the whole cricket spirit of the country. His idea of deconstructing and reconstructing players isn't working. Also there is definitely a Richard would take our offer over a role for the KKR/Punjab any day.

By the way, Miraz bhai, how exactly do you plan to lure Richard with money? You would need to convince Mr. President Kamal wouldn't you? Actually, if Rchard or Alistair is hired till WC2015 I have no problem in them starting now. Just be ready to hand Jamie a big redundancy package, possibly the whole pay for the remaining term. Although it still might be worth it..

Richard is thought of very highly, if BCB really is need of money I am sure some established cricket fans will be more than happy to help BCB.
But the thing is, I do not think it's the right time to change a head coach and appoint someone like Richard McInnes.I don't think Jamie deserves the sack, but some of us here think he does and in that case the scenario would be bring in McInnes now, he won't get to make his team for WC 11, people will blame him for the failure and then he will be fired after WC 11. Instead, if we are really looking for a long term solution, we should hire the new coach after WC 11, whoever that is.

FagunerAgun
June 20, 2010, 08:03 AM
Agree with the thread. I think currently we have the best team of our not so long cricket history but they are failing dramatically, even without a single win.

Siddons better manages our expectations, surely and uprightly, otherwise BCB should seek a better motivational source.

Pretty disappointing and heart breaking for the fans.

Miraz
June 20, 2010, 08:03 AM
Siddons should not be sacked now. As I have said previously, we missed the chance in 2009 and bring in someone like McInnes.

Siddons should be thanked for his job after 2011 World Cup and we should appoint someone like McInnes or Moody. It's too late and it will do more harm than good for 2011 world cup prospect (although the real prospect is nil).

However, if we look at the bigger picture and ignore our performance in 2011 World Cup (which is difficult to ignore), it is the right time to say good bye to Siddons.

ahnaf
June 20, 2010, 08:34 AM
<br />Posted via BC Mobile Edition

ahnaf
June 20, 2010, 08:37 AM
Ajob..miraz bro.. Whatmore r Puro 5 year e kyta test 5 dine geche?? Beshi hole 5 ta! R bakigulo te 2 din or 3 din e shesh... R js r somoye akn pray shobgulai je 5 dine jaiteche ota tomar choke porchena?? Tomake kono juktitei aktano jacche na!! Koyekta 1 day te win ei tomar kache shob!! R bakigulote je joggonno performance ta tomar choke lagchena!! 1day shobai khelte parle bt test khele koyta dol?? Dw atodin thakle to bd test status harato.. R tumi ki mone koro? Notun akta coach eshe amader team k ratarati bodlay felbe? Odvut kotha barta tomar?? Ki ache bd te onno desh r tulonay?? Baki desh r kotha nai bollam zim r ei to amader cheye bhalo cricket kathamo ache...
<br />Posted via BC Mobile Edition

Ajfar
June 20, 2010, 08:48 AM
Miraz bhai 2011 world cup hasn't happened yet. Unfortunately we will have to wait. You can't predict how our team might play in the world cup. You and I can predict what might happen and there is a pretty good chance of us being right, but still until it actually happens we can't say for sure. I don't know about you but I had no expectation of us beating India or RSA last world cup. But we did beat them. who knows what will happen this time.

Reyme bhai get your facts right.

Bashar was dropped from the team due to horrible form. and then he went on with ICL.
Pilot was dropped even before JS was BD's coach. Pilot was dropped for world cup 2007 and mushy replaced him.
Find an article where Rafique said JS didn't want him to be in his team? Rafique retired from cricket because he didn't want to take crap from BCB.
SN was part of the team even the series before the ICL fiasco. but he withdrew himself for personal reason and then joined ICL.
Alok was making a good comeback and JS loved him. JS said some pretty neat things after that 100 against India but he left for ICL.

Zeeshan
June 20, 2010, 08:49 AM
As someone aspiring to be a mod of bc someday: @Ahnaf it's against the forum decorum to use sms type of shorthand so it's advisory to use proper English or Bangla if you want to be taken seriously. Also a gentle reminder it's basic courtesy not to address someone as your peer using "tumi" unless he or she gives explicit permission or you know that person personally.

Ajfar
June 20, 2010, 08:53 AM
As someone aspiring to be a mod of bc someday: @Ahnaf it's against the forum decorum to use sms type of shorthand so it's advisory to use proper English or Bangla if you want to be taken seriously. Also a gentle reminder it's basic courtesy not to address someone as your peer using "tumi" unless he or she gives explicit permission or you know that person personally.

Nelson Mandela once said, "if you talk to a man in a language he understands he takes it to his head, if you talk to a man in his language he takes it to his heart".

unda_bhai
June 20, 2010, 08:53 AM
And what exactly are you privileged to see first hand from the nets than convinces you otherwise Sir? :rolleyes:

i didnt see or hear anything man. im just saying IF i was in the team or some official related to the team, id get too know why the decision are made n how.

n since wer not in any position like that, we dont know wat goes on do we!?!?!? personally, i like to assume the best of their intentions.

n wen even everything u try dosnt work, some ppl hear like to pull the trigger. its ridiculous i think. just hang in there bd fans. id hate to be a player n read this sort of rubbish. its all good wen we win..n this wen we lose. fans are fickle. but bd fans just out of this world. pundits too smart for their own good.

alibangali
June 20, 2010, 08:57 AM
I can not believe how some fans (and the coach) are satisfied with defeats even if this was in the 5th day of a test match. We were always behind on those matches and were trying to avoid heavy defeats from the beginning of the test match. I would rather see a bunch of mediocre players play their hearts out and get beaten by a large margin then to see capable players playing negatively for a so called honorouble defeat.

If we are this pathetic then we should throw in the towel.

lamisa
June 20, 2010, 09:41 AM
Some much needed well written strong words Miraz bhai. Negative mindset got nobody nowhere. And as for Siddon lovers saying that he did a great job in batting department....well first of all only guy who is in form of batting is Tamim Iqbal and amar jana mote he rectified his fault with Salahuddin clocking in countless hours in the net. It's not as if under Siddon's tutelage he somehow miraculously metamorphosed into what he is today. Unless you Sid lovers can give me strong evidence of his direct influence to batting I remain convinced otherwise.

tamim himself said that siddons has helped him a lot with his batting.isn't that good enough for u?

ahnaf
June 20, 2010, 09:44 AM
As someone aspiring to be a mod of bc someday: @Ahnaf it's against the forum decorum to use sms type of shorthand so it's advisory to use proper English or Bangla if you want to be taken seriously. Also a gentle reminder it's basic courtesy not to address someone as your peer using "tumi" unless he or she gives explicit permission or you know that person personally.

what do u think??? Apni amak courtesy shikacchen??? R tumi bolar age je onak e ami bro or vaia bole dakchi ota choke porena apnar,sir??? Last post e bro bole dhakci nd r ager post e vaia bolchi.. Aktu kosto kore dheken... I think.. Almost every member of this forum are as my elder brother or sister.. Coz i'm just 18... To sir bolen?? Bhaia or apu der tumi bole daka jay na?? Sir, amar last post e mone hoy na ami kono sms word use korechi..
<br />Posted via BC Mobile Edition

zainab
June 20, 2010, 09:58 AM
BTW Miraz bhai, I was not making excuses, I was stating a fact. I am not Bangladeshi, but I feel for these boys, I can imagine how deflated they also feel. After the English tour, they should at least have 2 weeks of rest.


Let's pray that the team progress to the super 8 in the 2011 WC, if not, it will be a regression of 4 years, Here they have home advantage, but they are also in a difficult group.

beshideshi
June 20, 2010, 10:06 AM
^^ Well, our WC group is not that hard really. If we manage to not screw up the Ireland, Netherlands games, we will need just one more victory to go through. We have England, India, South Africa and West Indies. And our target from the big 4 should be quite obvious.

and also, remember we are not playing Ireland in English/South African conditions :P so I believe we should be fine against them

ahnaf
June 20, 2010, 10:19 AM
Ahnaf, can you please write either in Bangla or in English. It's very difficult to read those Banglish posts. Thanks.
sorry vaia.. Edit korlam...
tumi improvmnt r kotha blcho?? Whtmore thakle bd team khokoni improve korto na.. Jiboneo na...Shobsomoy 1day te oi bochore 2i ta or 3i ta joy r bakigula te joggonno performance.. Test r kotha r nai bollam... Agulo ke other team ki bole?? Fluck.. Jemon bd zim or ireland r kache harle jeta bole.. Whatmore r era te test e ki perfomance bdr? 2 dine or 3 din e khela shesh? Innings e har! And ata jodi cholte thakto tahole sure bd zim r moto test status harato... Coz Last 1 yearr bhalo khelar por o johkon matro england 1ta test e crash korlo thokon ki reaction dhekeco? R tumi bolcho js akta better team paise! Kokonoi na! Ai tamimK k gorche? Js.. Ai sakib k k gorche? JS.. Mahmudullah.. Imrul aro shobaik Js e goshe mejhe thik korche... Whtmore jevabe paise player der thik sevabei rekhe geche.. Js nije ai team ta k gorche... Ai bd last 2 year dhore dharavahik vabe bhalo khelche.. Js r 1st 2 bochor geche to eder bujhte.. Goshe mejhe thik korte... Ha.. O r barthota ache.. Sakib r shafiul chara bowling kharap hocche shob miliye..

Tiger444
June 20, 2010, 10:19 AM
^^ Well, our WC group is not that hard really. If we manage to not screw up the Ireland, Netherlands games, we will need just one more victory to go through. We have England, India, South Africa and West Indies. And our target from the big 4 should be quite obvious.

and also, remember we are not playing Ireland in English/South African conditions :P so I believe we should be fine against them

I think thats a great point..I feel like overall we're just getting frustrated with this Asia Cup and now we're getting really worried for the world cup..I know anything can happen but come on Ireland and Netherlands beating us in our home conditions? If it was even Zimbabwe I would be a bit worried but Ireland and Netherlands will be totally clueless against our spin..and then we have 2 win only 1 of those 4 teams..last time England was in our conditions we gave them a hard time in our 2nd ODI..they really are nothing special in ODIs and then the saffers usually struggle against spin and in our conditions it could be even tougher..WI is very poor against spin and their batting is largely relied on gayle..somehow we manage 2 get him out then that game is very winnable..the game against India could be the toughest since their great playing against spin..I think we'll be fine..we have 2 make sure we don't have any tours close 2 the world cup..we should have a 2 month gap at least..

alibangali
June 20, 2010, 11:00 AM
I think thats a great point..I feel like overall we're just getting frustrated with this Asia Cup and now we're getting really worried for the world cup..I know anything can happen but come on Ireland and Netherlands beating us in our home conditions? If it was even Zimbabwe I would be a bit worried but Ireland and Netherlands will be totally clueless against our spin..and then we have 2 win only 1 of those 4 teams..last time England was in our conditions we gave them a hard time in our 2nd ODI..they really are nothing special in ODIs and then the saffers usually struggle against spin and in our conditions it could be even tougher..WI is very poor against spin and their batting is largely relied on gayle..somehow we manage 2 get him out then that game is very winnable..the game against India could be the toughest since their great playing against spin..I think we'll be fine..we have 2 make sure we don't have any tours close 2 the world cup..we should have a 2 month gap at least..

The worry will be that we may have our usual batting collapse against those teams and hence be in a losing position.

Having watched NZ get a draw against the Italians in football really signifies that nothing is impossible in world cups.

Tiger444
June 20, 2010, 11:07 AM
The worry will be that we may have our usual batting collapse against those teams and hence be in a losing position.

Having watched NZ get a draw against the Italians in football really signifies that nothing is impossible in world cups.

We should know that of course..I mean who would have thought we would have beaten the world class India? Also the way we beat South Africa..wow what good memories..miracles do happen and of course they can happen against us but also they can work 4 us as well..

alibangali
June 20, 2010, 11:26 AM
We should know that of course..I mean who would have thought we would have beaten the world class India? Also the way we beat South Africa..wow what good memories..miracles do happen and of course they can happen against us but also they can work 4 us as well..

Those memories are like sparkles of light in a room full of darkness :).
I guess subconciously i keep watching us play no matter how many times i convinced myself not to (because of the never ending losing streak) in hope that those moments may come again and i dont want to miss out.

BanArafath
June 20, 2010, 11:31 AM
Siddons is doing his best to improve the players skills and technique and the improvement has been shown by the players batting average which have been improved a lot. Under Jamie Siddons coaching Tamim, Shakib, Riyad are better batsmen than they were before under the coaching of Whatmore. Imrul and Junaid are improving as well. Bangladesh needs a good pace bowling coach as soon as possible.

STOP BLAMING SIDDONS !!! Blame those useless people in BCB.

Spitfire_x86
June 20, 2010, 11:47 AM
I will try to lure Richard McInnes with a good amount of money. He still follows Bangladesh cricket and has a passion for his boys. I am willing to pay him double the salary he is getting as the coach of Australia women team. I hope he will come back.
You want to make Siddons the sacrificial lamb because of the awaiting "WC 2010 disaster", alright. Team achievement wise, what is record of McInnes with our U19 team? Our U19 team didn't even make it to the final 8. Was his reign controversial decision free? IIRC, he made someone captain for the WC who hardly deserved his place in the team.

shakibrulz
June 20, 2010, 11:58 AM
The team has improved a lot. FFS forget that one or two upsets, lets talk about overall performance. Tamim is in blazing form in both formats. Shakib won the Wisden cricketer of the year award + topped the rankings which was just a distant dream for Bangla. Promising batting prospects like Jahrul and Siddique made england sweat for the runs. Mushfiqur and Riyad had a very good time as well. So overall as a coach, he did reasonably well. And count how many times they came this close to victories.

Tigers_eye
June 20, 2010, 12:05 PM
...

T_E bhai, with the current mindset this bunch of players will stand no chance against the spirited but mediocre Whatmore led Bangladesh side of 2005-2007.

Current side will have more centuries and more fifties thats for sure, but they will happily sit on the losing side while the whatmore side will collectively win 10 out of 10 times.
I am scratching my head. 10 out of 10 is a figure of speech I guess.

You can say whatever you want to say but that doesn't become a fact since they can not play the matches against each other. In your evaluation it can be 0-10 in favor of the oldies and in mine it can be opposite.

If you want to compare stats, compare between the recent two series against England home and away, and the 2003 England series.
+++
You have to agree our batsmen are technically and mentally much more compact now before Siddons arrival. Be it Tamim, Junaed, Shakib, Riyad or even Imrul. Siddons impact will linger much longer after he is gone. Whereas, what whatmore gave us (the emotional and motivational lift) went away with him.

Tiger444
June 20, 2010, 12:20 PM
How much influence does Siddons have on the team selection by the way? Because I remember after the DPL siddons ripped on SN and aftab even after they had done well..then also there was a rumor that he wanted alok in there but selectors wanted aftab in there and the end result was that aftab ended up being in the team while alok had 2 sit at home..I want to know how much power he has in team selections because that does play a big part..

Beamer
June 20, 2010, 12:28 PM
There you go T_E. You said it all. He will be judged and his influence will be felt long after he is gone.

shakibrulz
June 20, 2010, 12:44 PM
BTW how many of Bangla cricketers are playing county? Any idea? I know Shakib plays for Worcestershire, anyone else?

beshideshi
June 20, 2010, 12:54 PM
I think thats a great point..I feel like overall we're just getting frustrated with this Asia Cup and now we're getting really worried for the world cup..I know anything can happen but come on Ireland and Netherlands beating us in our home conditions? If it was even Zimbabwe I would be a bit worried but Ireland and Netherlands will be totally clueless against our spin..and then we have 2 win only 1 of those 4 teams..last time England was in our conditions we gave them a hard time in our 2nd ODI..they really are nothing special in ODIs and then the saffers usually struggle against spin and in our conditions it could be even tougher..WI is very poor against spin and their batting is largely relied on gayle..somehow we manage 2 get him out then that game is very winnable..the game against India could be the toughest since their great playing against spin..I think we'll be fine..we have 2 make sure we don't have any tours close 2 the world cup..we should have a 2 month gap at least..

Glad to see you understand that the current outburst is largely exaggerated by the Asia cup failure. In case we win the next game, you will see 95% of the people changing their opinions.
And about WC; I think reaching QF[no super 8 as far as I know] would be a reasonable result for us. For those who are expecting a semi-final berth.....yes, the world cup is likely to be a 'failure'.
But what Miraz bhai tried to say goes beyond the world cup, he raised some good points about the direction of Bangladesh cricket in general.
btw, T_E bhai, you hit the absolute bulls eye! :notworthy:

Miraz
June 20, 2010, 01:01 PM
I sincerely hope Siddons legacy of losing mentality and individual performance ahead of team goal does not linger after he is gone.

alibangali
June 20, 2010, 01:06 PM
Glad to see you understand that the current outburst is largely exaggerated by the Asia cup failure. In case we win the next game, you will see 95% of the people changing their opinions.
And about WC; I think reaching QF[no super 8 as far as I know] would be a reasonable result for us. For those who are expecting a semi-final berth.....yes, the world cup is likely to be a 'failure'.
But what Miraz bhai tried to say goes beyond the world cup, he raised some good points about the direction of Bangladesh cricket in general.
btw, T_E bhai, you hit the absolute bulls eye! :notworthy:

This is not true, there has been a debate on siddons before the asia cup and although winning a match might calm down the hurting hearts, the issue will still remain and the debates will still continue.

alibangali
June 20, 2010, 01:11 PM
Losing by small margins will not calm the critics nor help our cause in attaining success at this level.

We need to draw more test matches and win more ODI's.
Only then we will get respect from the cricketing community.

I will gladly give credit to JS if he can increase our win/loss ratio in ODI's and get atleast 25% of draws out of the next few test series (if he survives that long).

Miraz
June 20, 2010, 01:14 PM
Three year in international sports is a loooooong time. If a coach can't start to deliver (in terms of results not bulls) even after 3 years, giving him infinity time won't change much. he will still deliver the same.

With Siddons approach and mindset I can see the early demise of Bangladesh cricket and the tombstone will read

"RIP Bangladesh Cricket. Here lies the team that didn't believe in today and only hoped for success in hazy future".

shakibrulz
June 20, 2010, 01:38 PM
Losing by small margins will not calm the critics nor help our cause in attaining success at this level.

We need to draw more test matches and win more ODI's.
Only then we will get respect from the cricketing community.

I will gladly give credit to JS if he can increase our win/loss ratio in ODI's and get atleast 25% of draws out of the next few test series (if he survives that long).

Who cares about friggin critics? Even if Bangla win 3-4 ODI's now and then, still those critics won't stop criticizing.. Mostly those critics are retards who don't follow Bangla cricket and simply argue on the basis of win loss ratios.. Nothing beyond that..

shakibrulz
June 20, 2010, 01:40 PM
Being optimistic is one thing, but whining about losing is another. Guys like Junaid, Jahurul and Imrul are showing good promise. Let them get more exposure at the international level. You can't just expect them to miraculously win matches.

What they need is give these youngsters ample exposure and kick out bunnies like Ashrafool off the team.

Equinox
June 20, 2010, 01:49 PM
I think the demands are loud and clear. We need wins and I think both Siddons and Shakib (I can't understand why he is being ignored here) are aware of this. Time is running out for both. Realistically I think the New Zealand series will be the real indicator of where we stand before the World Cup. I expect a series win at home against New Zealand in ODIs, nothing less.

Miraz
June 20, 2010, 01:51 PM
So, every now and then there will be a new player in the team and we have to wait for them to mature before we can think of winning any match.

Excellent logic. at this rate we can wait until the next genius (now playing U-12) gets into the national team in 12 years time and wait for another 5 years to mature. We have to wait for another 17 years only.

Have to make sure no other U-12 players show promise as this might lead to a furher 17 years and the cycle will continue.

We have heard enough of this already.

alibangali
June 20, 2010, 05:32 PM
Who cares about friggin critics? Even if Bangla win 3-4 ODI's now and then, still those critics won't stop criticizing.. Mostly those critics are retards who don't follow Bangla cricket and simply argue on the basis of win loss ratios.. Nothing beyond that..

Unfortunately those critics are other national players, coaches, pundits and boards. At the end of the day if we dont care about how others in the sport see us then we will get secluded and maybe even excluded. Teams like Australia and India dont want to host us because we are too crap and England wont host us again until 10 years from now. The South Africans will probably follow next and then the only place we can play our crappy cricket is at home and some of the other less known teams.

alibangali
June 20, 2010, 05:36 PM
When the coach before every game says (Indirectly and directly in some cases) we are not good enough to win and our objective is to show improvement, all of a sudden its the players fault that we lost the match?

If the coach himself can not instill any spirit to win, have faith in his players and create strategy for a win, then what the hell are the players supposed to work from.

tkandi4
June 20, 2010, 06:55 PM
I do not love or dislike JS, but I think we should remember the issue of not having quality bowlers during the last 3 years.
1) Rafiq, the most experienced spin bowler, retired from international cricket.
2) Mash, the most experienced pacer, got hurt multiple times and missed a lot of cricket. He is yet to get his form back.
3)Razzak, another experienced ODI bowler, had problem with actions, and he is not the same Razzak after changed action
4) Rasel, another smart ODI bowler, got hurt & missed a lot of cricket. He is back, but don't have the form.
5) Mahmudullah is underused as bowler.
6) Shahadat is great in one innings and then disappears in next 10 or 12 innings.
7) We had a questionable bowling coach, and now no one to coach young bowlers.
8) No plans to hunt or develop spin bowlers.
9) Other than Shafiul, we haven't develop a good bowler. Dolar, Rubel, Nazmul give you one game and that's it.

nsd3
June 20, 2010, 10:17 PM
What's the Board doing since organizing the DPL? Are we not forgetting BCB while rating National Team and Siddons on their performance?

Siddons did good. It will just get faded if BD continues to do the same as they did in the last few matches (incl End tour). If he can't make it happen ASAP he'll obviously need some help. Sacking won't be good for Bangladesh Team now. He'd rather need help, so feel free to think how he can get help.

Tigers_eye
June 20, 2010, 10:42 PM
Three year in international sports is a loooooong time. If a coach can't start to deliver (in terms of results not bulls) even after 3 years, giving him infinity time won't change much. he will still deliver the same.

With Siddons approach and mindset I can see the early demise of Bangladesh cricket and the tombstone will read

"RIP Bangladesh Cricket. Here lies the team that didn't believe in today and only hoped for success in hazy future".
I absolutely agree with you on this Miraz bhaia provided....

We have a pipeline that produces Intl calibre players. Without that even Gary C, Andy F, 5 other best coaches can't make OUR beloved BD team a regular winner.

Bowling unit is laughable to say the least. How can the above coaches let alone Siddons make them win with the big boys?

nsd3
June 21, 2010, 01:13 AM
If we believe in becoming a scholar we may be that in course of time. If we believe in winning we can't win it today - it should come over time. We just don't have the quality yet.

Baundule
June 21, 2010, 01:35 AM
Bowling unit is laughable to say the least. How can the above coaches let alone Siddons make them win with the big boys?
T_E bhai, if you look at the scorecards, our bowlers are much more consistent performers than our batsmen. Our butter-finger keeper and sloppy fielders also do not help the bowlers. Batsmen are over-rated and bowlers are hugely under-rated.

:goal: (testing the new emo)

alibangali
June 21, 2010, 02:50 AM
Whats frustrated me is not just that we keep losing, but the manner in the way we play.

Its quite evident that we play without any desire to win the match, our players body language lack any conviction and our mindset is on waiting rather than making things happen.

I would like to see our team fighting again, with high spirit and desire for success. I am sure if the coach and players work together to go for wins while sacrificing this indvidual performance strategy we may see some embarassing defeats however we will also win some matches in between.

thebest
June 21, 2010, 03:12 AM
JS apologist talking about batting improvement which is marginal. If you consider scoring rate in 2003-7 to 2007 - 10, even that would be nullify. If I could manage some time I would try to do that. But what happend to our bowling. What step did JS took. Rasel was droped after one bad series; Raj is no more same, he did not stand up for Rafiq; Mash- Shahadat became journyman. I am more interested net run rate in this period. Hopefully I could do this in the weekend. BTW when JS took over exact date as it is needed to exclude Shawn Williams brief tenure after DW.

nahaz
June 21, 2010, 07:51 AM
So Pakistan scored 385/7. If we score 285, would that also be looked at as a great achievement since individual batsmen will have great scores? How about if Naeem scores a 50 off 80 balls? And Riyad a 40 off 50?

lamisa
June 21, 2010, 08:33 AM
All that talk from pro-Siddions about how he improved our batting and everything. We should be scoring 270-300 every time then? I am not a pro or anti Siddons, but all I know that he is not good enough to handle the head coach position. May be he did improve our batting, may be he didnt, but we can all agree that he isn't a head coach material. And we need a head coach...

uuuuffffff,he is just a coach who has to tell his players what to do and it is not his fault that the bunch of retarted beyadobs don't listen to him for crying out loud!what else can he do,go out there and hold the bat for our "batsmen"?

hbk619
June 21, 2010, 09:08 AM
uuuuffffff,he is just a coach who has to tell his players what to do and it is not his fault that the bunch of retarted beyadobs don't listen to him for crying out loud!what else can he do,go out there and hold the bat for our "batsmen"?

so we did we fire mohsin kamal? trevor chappel? the end of whatmore? gordon greenidge? if u r showing excuse for siddons, then u have to show excuse for those coaches......

r to kisu bolar nai. today's game shows that players are going after individual performance rather than playing for the team.

aniksh1
June 21, 2010, 09:25 AM
onek kosto bhai onek kosto

Lock this mofos in a gym for the next five years

Nadim
June 21, 2010, 10:00 AM
JS....wondering what did he said to Kayes during the lunch intervals...

Baundule
June 21, 2010, 10:02 AM
JS....wondering what did he said to Kayes during the lunch intervals...
Kayes needs another 20 runs for a 1 lakh bonus. 20% is Jamie's. :D

Beamer
June 21, 2010, 10:34 AM
Miraz may have some validity in what he is saying. This is a pitiful display of ODI game. There is something wrong in our one day approach ( T20 as well ). We used to bowl much better in one dayers. These days we get good starts, but seemingly we can't capitalize on it, and we can't rotate the strike. One day games are way more of a team affair than test matches. Individuals do get more time to express themselves in tests, hence individual improvements are noticebale. Metaphoriaclly speaking, if tests are a marathon based on individual skill and endurance, one dayers are certainly a relay race, where one guy hands over the baton to the next guy and so on. If you get a good start, you expect the next guy to keep the momentum and finish strong at the end. Convsersely, a bad start needs the later guys to make up for the lost time. We are at sea right now.

Miraz
June 21, 2010, 11:38 AM
I hope todays match can open the eyes of some other blind pro-Siddons fans.

This is a patheic approach and will lead us nowhere.

Spitfire_x86
June 21, 2010, 11:42 AM
What was the role of Siddons in http://www.cricinfo.com/natwestseries/engine/current/match/211579.html"]this match (http://www.cricinfo.com/natwestseries/engine/current/match/211579.html)?

I hate the way we have been playing ODI/T20 cricket for years as much as anyone else, but this thread is not about that at all.

lamisa
June 21, 2010, 11:45 AM
i think js asked the boys to go out and play like they did in the 1st test at lords!

Nafi
June 21, 2010, 11:45 AM
We need a bloody bowling coach

Nadim
June 21, 2010, 11:46 AM
Shakib: "There were Some plus points in our batting"

Floor....siddons sobair matha nosto koira felaiche:mad::hairpull:

Miraz
June 21, 2010, 11:48 AM
Have to repost here -

Shakib thinks our batsmen have done brilliantly today!!

What a shame!!!

Do we need any other proof that Siddons has brainwashed these Kids? How easily they become happy> Where is the hunger to win?

Baundule
June 21, 2010, 11:48 AM
Shakib: "There were Some plus points in our batting"

Floor....siddons sobair matha nosto koira felaiche:mad::hairpull:
Siddons er target 240 score kora. So, you know.

Zeeshan
June 21, 2010, 11:51 AM
We need the OP or a variant of that article in FP. Please.

Zeeshan
June 21, 2010, 11:54 AM
Have to repost here -

Shakib thinks our batsmen have done brilliantly today!!

What a shame!!!

Do we need any other proof that Siddons has brainwashed these Kids? How easily they become happy> Where is the hunger to win?

That's why I like Tamim's attitude. He's ghaura and doesn't give a **** if anyone else tries to change his style. Unfortunately amader gunuboti captain and ex captain fell under the mesmerism of Sid's svengali charm and pep talks of "improving" which we clearly are not and which is done mainly to save his own ***.

Holden
June 21, 2010, 11:55 AM
I hope todays match can open the eyes of some other blind pro-Siddons fans.

This is a pathetic approach and will lead us nowhere.

What about the fact that we conceded a record amount (and by a very big margin) on a pitch which has relatively favoured the bowlers in the past? Is Siddons also to blame for this. Once we conceded 385 that was the end of the game, the bowling performance was much worse than the cowardly batting display, but looks like it has managed to hide away from any criticism.

No doubt that Siddons has made mistakes, but it's too easy to lay all the blame on him, there were many things wrong with bangladesh Cricket, and by replacing Siddons isn't just going to miraculously turn us into a world beater.

One thing in particular that contributed to this pathetic result, and the others before it is the absence of a bowling coach, the BCB are as much to blame for this as Siddons.

akabir77
June 21, 2010, 11:58 AM
Getting better. Hahaha!! Well done.

Now, can you please tell me how many ODIs we managed to win away from home?

A big zero.

i don't understand this didn't we won against WI and Zimbo last year? so what's this? we r a lot stronger than what we were during DAV.

Its very funny that you look at stats and scream but you failed to mention that now teams take us dead seriously but during dav it was ...

OK in asia cup we r playing very poorly but there is a reason behind it. show me a single country that breaks a series in cold weather and come to this hot humid and dark weather to play straight from TEST to ODI. Show me one team.

blame the freaken BAL party mangement and lota kamal for not having a bowling coach till now, getting this kind of schedule and what not.

yes siddon is not the best head coach but u can't put every thing on him.

Next thing we will see that for not having electricity in bd is also his fault.

Baundule
June 21, 2010, 12:07 PM
No doubt that Siddons has made mistakes, but it's too easy to lay all the blame on him, there were many things wrong with bangladesh Cricket, and by replacing Siddons isn't just going to miraculously turn us into a world beater.

One thing in particular that contributed to this pathetic result, and the others before it is the absence of a bowling coach, the BCB are as much to blame for this as Siddons.
I take your word and no one here is blaming Siddons alone. He is 'one of the' weak points (and a very important one) of the team. So, we need to get rid of him as well. The list may continue to include people like Lotus Kamal, Ashraful, even Shakib and so on; but that does not prove Siddons right.

Dilscoop
June 21, 2010, 12:10 PM
I hope todays match can open the eyes of some other blind pro-Siddons fans.

This is a patheic approach and will lead us nowhere.
EXACTLY. Today's match just proved your thread title. "Downward Spiral of Bangladesh cricket"

It was clearly his idea to play out 50 overs like that, and not play the target. When we used to chase huge totals in the past, we used to go after it, and we used to get big runs. Even if had failed to chase 385, why this loser approach from Siddions? He is clearly killing the spirit of this team. He is clearly killing the confidence of this team. He is the coach, he suppose to inspire, we are the fans, we are suppose to be realistic, not the other way around. Clearly JS has not seen any of the great sports movies, and what coaches do to make the underdogs spirited and confident and all charged up.

I said this before, I am not a pro or anti JS, but you can surely guess what I am ...

this SOB gotta go!! Please fans in Bangladesh, get out on the street and fight! We cant have him till WC. We can still fire him and get a decent coach, in a year, we could still do A LOT better then THIS BS.

ahnaf
June 21, 2010, 12:10 PM
i don't understand this didn't we won against WI and Zimbo last year? so what's this? we r a lot stronger than what we were during DAV.

Its very funny that you look at stats and scream but you failed to mention that now teams take us dead seriously but during dav it was ...

OK in asia cup we r playing very poorly but there is a reason behind it. show me a single country that breaks a series in cold weather and come to this hot humid and dark weather to play straight from TEST to ODI. Show me one team.

blame the freaken BAL party mangement and lota kamal for not having a bowling coach till now, getting this kind of schedule and what not.

yes siddon is not the best head coach but u can't put every thing on him.

Next thing we will see that for not having electricity in bd is also his fault.

great work bro.. Completly agree... Loitta nd tar sangopango re age soraw.. Bowling coach ano... Amader cricket structure thik koro..

alibangali
June 21, 2010, 12:11 PM
What about the fact that we conceded a record amount (and by a very big margin) on a pitch which has relatively favoured the bowlers in the past? Is Siddons also to blame for this. Once we conceded 385 that was the end of the game, the bowling performance was much worse than the cowardly batting display, but looks like it has managed to hide away from any criticism.

No doubt that Siddons has made mistakes, but it's too easy to lay all the blame on him, there were many things wrong with bangladesh Cricket, and by replacing Siddons isn't just going to miraculously turn us into a world beater.

One thing in particular that contributed to this pathetic result, and the others before it is the absence of a bowling coach, the BCB are as much to blame for this as Siddons.


So all of a sudden JS is just responsible for batting only. He is the head coach and with the absence of bowling coach, bowling is his responsiblity.
It was pathetic to concede 385 runs but after doing that it was a disgrace to give up before even trying.
Please do not use give me the BS that the coach has nothing to do with the loser mentality.
<br />Posted via BC Mobile Edition (iPhone)

Dilscoop
June 21, 2010, 12:12 PM
uuuuffffff,he is just a coach who has to tell his players what to do and it is not his fault that the bunch of retarted beyadobs don't listen to him for crying out loud!what else can he do,go out there and hold the bat for our "batsmen"?

Our players listen to coach's order today. Happy? Clearly coach's orders aren't the great ones...

alibangali
June 21, 2010, 12:15 PM
JS is a bad head coach for us and he needs to go. No one is putting ALL failures of our cricket on him so stop using this as a counter argument.
<br />Posted via BC Mobile Edition (iPhone)

ahnaf
June 21, 2010, 12:24 PM
Ok.. Guyz.. Tell me during whatmore era how many matches we managed to win before WC aganist G8 teams??? And how many in js era till now?

akabir77
June 21, 2010, 12:35 PM
people are screaming because we played 50 overs and not tried to win!!! this game. and the same people would scream louder if we have bundled out in 25 overs.

We have gains so much experience by batting 50 over that for those who never played cricket would understand.

We as a parar team also do that to give our main batsman better confidence so that they can do better against the same team or other teams when we r not chasing that much.

please use common sense instead of getting fired up reading/hearing cricinfo comments.

BD team batting 50 over has a lot more significant then getting out in 25. we faced t best pak bowlers and got to do real net practice...

only thing that i didn't like is how ash was made 12 man. come on he deserves better than that,.

Most of us r so fired up because of SOB circinfo that we forgot how they can say ZN doesn't deserve a 100. WTF? are we here to entertain you, you cricinfo MF? how dare they stuff like this?

DId any one watched any nz or sl games when they just started? none of them played like this? I can bet my life on it that they have done that and i have turned off my TV and hence i remember that. but now every one is DHOA TULSHI PATA...SOB

ahnaf
June 21, 2010, 12:48 PM
people are screaming because we played 50 overs and not tried to win!!! this game. and the same people would scream louder if we have bundled out in 25 overs.

We have gains so much experience by batting 50 over that for those who never played cricket would understand.

We as a parar team also do that to give our main batsman better confidence so that they can do better against the same team or other teams when we r not chasing that much.

please use common sense instead of getting fired up reading/hearing cricinfo comments.

BD team batting 50 over has a lot more significant then getting out in 25. we faced t best pak bowlers and got to do real net practice...

only thing that i didn't like is how ash was made 12 man. come on he deserves better than that,.

Most of us r so fired up because of SOB circinfo that we forgot how they can say ZN doesn't deserve a 100. WTF? are we here to entertain you, you cricinfo MF? how dare they stuff like this?

DId any one watched any nz or sl games when they just started? none of them played like this? I can bet my life on it that they have done that and i have turned off my TV and hence i remember that. but now every one is DHOA TULSHI PATA...SOB

thanks a lot bro.. Agree with you... The last two match we scored only 160-180+.. So our batsman were lack in confidence and aganist a bowling attack like shoaib,Asif,Afridi.. Leave us im sure its really impossible for any team of G8 if they cant manage 2 do something special ....

Dilscoop
June 21, 2010, 12:58 PM
JS is a bad head coach for us and he needs to go. No one is putting ALL failures of our cricket on him so stop using this as a counter argument.
<br />Posted via BC Mobile Edition (iPhone)

And also this. ▼
Ok.. Guyz.. Tell me during whatmore era how many matches we managed to win before WC aganist G8 teams??? And how many in js era till now?


It's not just the wins, also the approach, the team boding, team spirit, proud to represent the country, the emotion. NONE of that is there, and it was when Whatmore was here. We aren't saying that era was great, but we are comparing that with this because this era came right after that, and we are seeing if we went downward or up. and clearly, we went donw..

ahnaf
June 21, 2010, 01:15 PM
And also this. ▼
Ok.. Guyz.. Tell me during whatmore era how many matches we managed to win before WC aganist G8 teams??? And how many in js era till now?


It's not just the wins, also the approach, the team boding, team spirit, proud to represent the country, the emotion. NONE of that is there, and it was when Whatmore was here. We aren't saying that era was great, but we are comparing that with this because this era came right after that, and we are seeing if we went downward or up. and clearly, we went donw..
ai kotha ageo akbar bolechi.. Aabr bolte holo..
Akbar rsa may 400+ krcilo oneday te.. 2 year age hoyto... Tamim thkn o ai tamim hoy nai.. Bt 1st 15 ovr bd jevabe khelche ota dhekei bujha giyecilo tara jetar jonno khelche jodio hare.... Ota dhekei mugdho hoye bashar ager kichu kotha ullekh kore bolecilen oi situation e amra hole khokoni jetar jonno kheltam na.... Ata amr kotha na.. Whtmore erar captain Habibul bashar r kotha...(source:- prothom alo,Stadium) aktu edit kore likhlam.. Mul kotha atai..

WarWolf
June 21, 2010, 03:02 PM
The current trend of performances suggest me one thing. We will be able to keep the test status but no team will agree to play test with us.