PDA

View Full Version : ODI batting stats: Siddons vs Whatmore


al Furqaan
June 21, 2010, 12:39 PM
we have seen that there is a very marginal improvement in batting averages under Siddons' leadership. however, given that our average before was 24, and top teams average little more than 30, it seems unlikely that a huge improvement would be made.

but regardless of that, and not mentioning todays batting farce of not even attempting to chase the target against pakistan, siddons' boys have batted better.

averages can obscure the facts. unlike test cricket, where an average tells you the team total score for most innings, ODI averages can be highly misleading.

300 all out in 48 overs is a better score than 250-5 in 50 overs. yet, the lower score has almost double the batting average (50 vs 30).

so i dug up the stats, for overall team totals in both eras, and also in instances where we batted the whole 50 overs.

a spreadsheet with the list of innings totals is attached.

Siddons Era Average total = 192
Siddons Era 50 over average = 245

Whatmore Era Average total = 179
Whatmore Era 50 over avg = 217

al Furqaan
June 21, 2010, 12:46 PM
further just looking at top 8 batting spots and comparing those averages indicates that the data we have is either flawed, or there is some confounding variable somewhere.

tamim vs hannan/N Iqbal/SN (advantage tamim)
imrul vs JO (advantage imrul)
ashraful vs bashar/old ash (slight advantage ash, at worst, even)
shakib vs rajin (advantage shakib)
riyad vs rana (advantage riyad)
naeem vs chacha (advantage naeem)
rock vs alok/tushar (advantage rock)
mushy vs pilot (advantage rahim, at worst, even)

at every position our team has higher averages now. so how can our overall team average be lower?

Nafi
June 21, 2010, 12:51 PM
Who cares about batting, its our bowling that has gone to tatters.

Miraz
June 21, 2010, 12:56 PM
These averages means nothing. Siddons appraoch is to boost personal average like we did today. This is BS style of play.

I don't care if we lose all matches but players average in the range of 30-40's.

Zeeshan
June 21, 2010, 12:58 PM
These averages don't take in account of the pitches. It could very well be we played more in "difficult" pitches in Whatmore era than Siddons era... or not. Point is it's a very crude comparison.

al Furqaan
June 21, 2010, 01:37 PM
These averages don't take in account of the pitches. It could very well be we played more in "difficult" pitches in Whatmore era than Siddons era... or not. Point is it's a very crude comparison.

doubtful. no on elses averages have skyrocketed. besides, the real change has been only in Siddons' second half of his tenure.

further, there is no reason to believe that piches are signficantly flatter now than they were in 2003-2007

al Furqaan
June 21, 2010, 01:38 PM
These averages means nothing. Siddons appraoch is to boost personal average like we did today. This is BS style of play.

I don't care if we lose all matches but players average in the range of 30-40's.

exactly, i don't think batting is as much a problem as the bowling.

al-Sagar
June 21, 2010, 01:54 PM
our batting has improved..... but our bowling detoriated. it would be nice too know how many runs our opponents are scoring at the same time.

Akib
June 21, 2010, 02:12 PM
Batting doesnt really worry me, but it does seem that our batting is better.

Bowling worries me greatly though. Its sad that we only have one bowler that can even be regarded as competent..... Everyone else just sucks... We need to replace the bowling coach for sure.

thebest
June 22, 2010, 07:23 AM
thanks. It would help me to prepare the bowling one this weekend hopefully

alibangali
June 22, 2010, 07:50 AM
Honestly i dont care anymore about avgs and stats anymore, siddon's approach has totally deflated my passion.

Baundule
June 22, 2010, 08:05 AM
The comparison in batting averages between DW and JS's reign is not all fair. We were supposed to have huge improvements in batting averages because now we have more skilled players in the team. Players like Shakib, Tamim, Roqibul, Naeem..... were very good performers even at the age level. Also, in recent years our rivals like Kenya and Zimbabwe have gone down in their standards. Add to that some easy runs against the free-falling windies. Stats do not always tell the whole story.

(This comment has nothing to do with my disliking Siddon's approach from the beginning. His approach will fail even if there is a huge improvement in the personal averages of the players.)

unda_bhai
June 22, 2010, 08:07 AM
The comparison in batting averages between DW and JS's reign is not all fair. We were supposed to have huge improvements in batting averages because now we have more skilled players in the team. Players like Shakib, Tamim, Roqibul, Naeem..... were very good performers even at the age level. Also, in recent years our rivals like Kenya and Zimbabwe have gone down in their standards. Add to that some easy runs against the free-falling windies. Stats do not always tell the whole story.

(This comment has nothing to do with my disliking Siddon's approach from the beginning. His approach will fail even if there is a huge improvement in the personal averages of the players.)

lol so we improved by default?

i guess i cudve been coach then n still improved them this much then

Farhad
June 22, 2010, 08:12 AM
Our batting has definitely improved. Nobody can deny that. It looks like a completely different team. In the Whatmore era, it was considered an accomplishment if we could get past 220. Now we do that every time. Before this asia cup, there was a decent stretch of matches where we scored 220+ in every game.

The issue is the bowling. Its gone down (arguably) more steeply than the batting has gone up. The BCB should have known beforehand that JS is not a bowling coach. He had an average of 173 as a bowler in his first class career. :-) There is no way he could come in and teach these people how to bowl in international cricket...

If anything, Champaka Ramanayeke has let this team down...

shakibrulz
June 22, 2010, 11:20 AM
Good analysis, that means definitely there's some improvement. Bowling still sucks, need some good pace bowlers. Shafiul looks good, but he's still raw, needs some guidance, but I think a bowling coach will be much more helpful than Siddons in that regard.

Beamer
June 22, 2010, 11:59 AM
Our batting has definitely improved. Nobody can deny that. It looks like a completely different team. In the Whatmore era, it was considered an accomplishment if we could get past 220. Now we do that every time. Before this asia cup, there was a decent stretch of matches where we scored 220+ in every game.

The issue is the bowling. Its gone down (arguably) more steeply than the batting has gone up. The BCB should have known beforehand that JS is not a bowling coach. He had an average of 173 as a bowler in his first class career. :-) There is no way he could come in and teach these people how to bowl in international cricket...

If anything, Champaka Ramanayeke has let this team down...

Absolutely right. Our bowling has gone so far down that any improvements in batting is totally overshadowed by it. Just compare our ODI bowling then to now. We had one of the better opening duo in ODI's in Mash and Rasel. Both are struggling with fitness, form and skill. Rafiq was a sure thing with 10 overs. He is gone. Raj was as good as any one day spinner for a while. He is gone as well. Only Sakib remains and who at that time was the third option as spinner behind Rafiq and Raj.

Bowling coach of high quality is a must now. We have no choice but to develop Shafi, Rubel and co. We need it immediately.

shakibrulz
June 22, 2010, 12:05 PM
Bowling coach of high quality is a must now. We have no choice but to develop Shafi, Rubel and co. We need it immediately.
Yeah. Shafiul is really promising, and we saw that in England. Even vs Pak where he leaked runs, he bowled reasonably well. Mashrafe and Rasel is totally outta sorts now :doh:

al Furqaan
June 22, 2010, 12:15 PM
Absolutely right. Our bowling has gone so far down that any improvements in batting is totally overshadowed by it. Just compare our ODI bowling then to now. We had one of the better opening duo in ODI's in Mash and Rasel. Both are struggling with fitness, form and skill. Rafiq was a sure thing with 10 overs. He is gone. Raj was as good as any one day spinner for a while. He is gone as well. Only Sakib remains and who at that time was the third option as spinner behind Rafiq and Raj.

Bowling coach of high quality is a must now. We have no choice but to develop Shafi, Rubel and co. We need it immediately.

Raj was golden last match, econ rate of 5-6 (whatever he ended up with) is superb when opposition puts up 400 on a pakka flat track.

his opening spell of 5-0-8-1, was PLATINUM.

he also did not do to badly against england at home. so he's bowled well in 3-4 matches on the trot, something he hasn't done since the 07 world cup.

mash, i think will get back to his groove. was hitting a good pace yesterday. same with shakib.

shafiul too i think will be solid, was a bit unlucky to concede 95 but i think he's definitely the most polished FB we have at the moment.

the defeatist mindset is what troubles me.

ideally, the stage is set for us, come world cup. all our matchs at home. just have to edge out the windies, which given their current form, may be a very likely possibility.


need to get rasel back in the fold as well.

shakibrulz
June 22, 2010, 12:29 PM
Raj was golden last match, econ rate of 5-6 (whatever he ended up with) is superb when opposition puts up 400 on a pakka flat track.

his opening spell of 5-0-8-1, was PLATINUM.

he also did not do to badly against england at home. so he's bowled well in 3-4 matches on the trot, something he hasn't done since the 07 world cup.

mash, i think will get back to his groove. was hitting a good pace yesterday. same with shakib.

shafiul too i think will be solid, was a bit unlucky to concede 95 but i think he's definitely the most polished FB we have at the moment.

the defeatist mindset is what troubles me.

ideally, the stage is set for us, come world cup. all our matchs at home. just have to edge out the windies, which given their current form, may be a very likely possibility.


need to get rasel back in the fold as well.


And the kind of Innings Zunaed played under lights, if he can repeat that @ England, then Bangla might stand a chance there as well.

About WI, don't understimate them, they are a good minnow basher, and Gayle alone can beat the crap out of them. But a win against Netherlands, Irish, and probably yes, WI too is verymuch on cards.

Baundule
June 23, 2010, 02:08 AM
lol so we improved by default?

i guess i cudve been coach then n still improved them this much then
Sorry for being harsh; but no need to reply when you do not understand a post. I mentioned the inflow of better skilled players at the age level for one of the reasons for improvement. McInnes et. al work for it, not the head coach of the national team.

unda_bhai
June 23, 2010, 07:58 AM
Sorry for being harsh; but no need to reply when you do not understand a post. I mentioned the inflow of better skilled players at the age level for one of the reasons for improvement. McInnes et. al work for it, not the head coach of the national team.

il reply if i want. u try and understand somthn for a change

yeh ok fine, accorind to u, wer seeing the work of mcinnes pay off now? so we'l see siddons work pay off later?

wat that previous post stated that our batsmen made run cos kenya windies n zim did crappe. then i cudve been coach at that time n still they wudve improved. go figure it out. its all well n great wen tamim n co are on top of rankings cos of the runs they made, but wen u have to credit some of it to sids, u say it was cos other teams did crappe?

oh n sorry for being harsh.

BANFAN
June 23, 2010, 09:58 AM
These averages means nothing. Siddons appraoch is to boost personal average like we did today. This is BS style of play.

I don't care if we lose all matches but players average in the range of 30-40's.

Exactly.

Averages means nothing in losing causes. We get better players from the system in National team than we would get 2 yrs before. We should have had a better percentage of wins with them.

Baundule
June 23, 2010, 11:45 AM
il reply if i want. u try and understand somthn for a change

yeh ok fine, accorind to u, wer seeing the work of mcinnes pay off now? so we'l see siddons work pay off later?

wat that previous post stated that our batsmen made run cos kenya windies n zim did crappe. then i cudve been coach at that time n still they wudve improved. go figure it out. its all well n great wen tamim n co are on top of rankings cos of the runs they made, but wen u have to credit some of it to sids, u say it was cos other teams did crappe?

oh n sorry for being harsh.
Can someone please translate it either in English or in Bangla?

alibangali
June 23, 2010, 04:48 PM
Exactly.

Averages means nothing in losing causes. We get better players from the system in National team than we would get 2 yrs before. We should have had a better percentage of wins with them.

totally agree

I wonder how many neutrals would remember individual performaces in lost matches. The answer is very little unless the innings was very entertaining.

Also we get crticised everytime we play because we simply dont win enough to warrant respect and acceptance at this level.

As a fan ask yourselves would you celebrate a bangladesh win more than your favourite player performing in a losing match?

I know which success i would celebrate more :)

bujhee kom
June 24, 2010, 01:05 PM
Siddona>>>Whatmore, a little more!

Siddons mega pawns >>>What more do you want?

M.H.Rubel
June 24, 2010, 01:25 PM
Here i am giving some interesting information about Last 10 ODI performance during DW era and JS era:
1.In the last 10 ODI during DW against G8 Bangladesh scored 1756 runs in aloted 466.3 overs,run rate 3.764 Where as during JS era in last 10 ODI against G8 we have scored 2187 in aloted 500 overs,run rate 4.374 definately we have improved our batting in JS era.
2.But the main fact is,In the last 10 ODI against G8 in DW era G8 were able to score 2053 runs in alloted 420 overs,run rate 4.889 Where as during JS era in last 10 ODI G8 has scored 2653 runs in alloted 441 overs,run rate 6.016
So net run rate during DW era it was minus 1.125 and during JS era this is minus 1.642.That means JS is 0.517 runs behind DW.

I have nothing more to say i am speechless.
<br />Posted via BC Mobile Edition

reyme
June 25, 2010, 04:21 PM
^^^ Stunning Stat Rubel ! This is an excellent summary which indicates why we cant win.
JS is lucky enough to have Tamim, Shakib, Junaid...around. If he had to play with the players Dav started with, we would be in much worse situation. On the other hand if we had someone like Dav right now...there is no way our situation would be this bad.

alibangali
June 25, 2010, 04:33 PM
Here i am giving some interesting information about Last 10 ODI performance during DW era and JS era:
1.In the last 10 ODI during DW against G8 Bangladesh scored 1756 runs in aloted 466.3 overs,run rate 3.764 Where as during JS era in last 10 ODI against G8 we have scored 2187 in aloted 500 overs,run rate 4.374 definately we have improved our batting in JS era.
2.But the main fact is,In the last 10 ODI against G8 in DW era G8 were able to score 2053 runs in alloted 420 overs,run rate 4.889 Where as during JS era in last 10 ODI G8 has scored 2653 runs in alloted 441 overs,run rate 6.016
So net run rate during DW era it was minus 1.125 and during JS era this is minus 1.642.That means JS is 0.517 runs behind DW.

I have nothing more to say i am speechless.
<br />Posted via BC Mobile Edition

Excellent M.H.Rubel

As you can clearly see DW's team had a better balance between the two key elements of cricket while JS seems to have neglected bowling and thus an imbalanced team .

With a balanced team (DW) the chances of winning would be better since the team is working well together while an imbalanced team (JS) where the bowling negates the slight improvement in batting means that success is difficult to attain.

unda_bhai
June 25, 2010, 10:14 PM
Excellent M.H.Rubel

As you can clearly see DW's team had a better balance between the two key elements of cricket while JS seems to have neglected bowling and thus an imbalanced team .

With a balanced team (DW) the chances of winning would be better since the team is working well together while an imbalanced team (JS) where the bowling negates the slight improvement in batting means that success is difficult to attain.


oh JS rejected the idea the of hiring a better bowling coach? never knew BCB were so into helping the team out.

Tigers_eye
June 26, 2010, 09:52 AM
Let us do the test comparison as well.

thebest
June 26, 2010, 11:25 AM
Let us do the test comparison as well.
Is it needed? We did not win any test matches against any credible opposition in any of these era

M.H.Rubel
June 26, 2010, 12:18 PM
Let us do the test comparison as well.

Though i am not sure but on eye estimation its almost clear that JS should have better stats in tests than DW as JS has got better team than DW.But it is intolerable to watch such a crap performance by JS team despite having better players.
<br />Posted via BC Mobile Edition

M.H.Rubel
June 26, 2010, 12:36 PM
Now we need to analyze the performance of JS.
1.From above stats of last 10 ODI comparison it is clear that JS's team team is having better batting performance.Yes the team is doing better in batting department.Probale cause of this better performance is playing with 8 batsman theory though overall some improvement in batting department i cant ignore.
2.Now the main point is why JS's team doing bad in bowling department.JS uses Naeem+Riyad as a 5th bowler its a crap idea.Overall our fielding has gone bad.BD team was electric in field during DW era.Mushy drops lot of catches.Overall quality of bowling during DW was better probably DW used them in good situation plus they got good support from the fielders.
JS has totally failed to improve the fielding and overall quality of bowling is his fault not to find good replacements.
<br />Posted via BC Mobile Edition

godzilla
June 26, 2010, 10:11 PM
It's no doubt that under SIDDONS the batting AVG went up but the moral/team spirit of the team went down. Not cool at all!