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shakibrulz
July 25, 2010, 09:46 AM
Here's a comparison between how Bangladesh and Pakistan did in England.


Bangladesh Pakistan
Batting Averages 25.07 23.64
High Score 382 289
Low score 123 148
Fifties 4 4
100's 2 0



Now this is against an experienced Anderson, a talented finn and of course their trump card Swann.

Pakistan had to face a bunch of rookies (in test level) like Doghie, Hilfy, and Smithy and Johson was in horrendous form.

Conditions: BD had to play in overcast conditions and England were offered lights by umpires unfairly (while Prior came and looked uncomfortable. He and bell built on a match winning p'ship).

Pakistan and Aus too had to play in overcast conditions. Punter even chose to bat first in overcast conditions :lol: Pakistan had to bat mostly under the sun than BD. There was a bit more swing in the pitch, though.

beshideshi
July 25, 2010, 09:55 AM
Sort of biased analysis, I do not think Hilfy/Douggy/johnson are much short of a world class bowling line up. Though i believe the Anderson/broad/swann line up is better in England. But then again, batting isn't Pakistan's main strength now, not by a long shot.
Another thing that you should consider, Bangladesh had a horrid 2nd innings at old trafford, when the conditions were nightmarish, so that definitely brought down the averages

lamisa
July 25, 2010, 10:05 AM
thing is that pakistan might suck at batting but they have a finest quality bowling attack which we don't have

Raynman
July 25, 2010, 10:13 AM
You forgot PAK 1-1 and BD 0-2.

What is your conclusion by the way? We are a better team than PAK?

simon
July 25, 2010, 10:16 AM
Lamisa, it was a batting comparaison.
Maybe Shakibrulz shld precise it.

Anyway,I had the same thoughts in mind & I entirely agree with Shakibrulz.:)
We batted better & comparing to the Eng bowling attack,the Aussie were poor & Mitchelle was worse than any bowler I have seen lately.:shock:

MohammedC
July 25, 2010, 10:17 AM
When I looked at the thread. I thought we are probably playing Pakistan in England next year.

MohammedC
July 25, 2010, 10:19 AM
A wiseman once said "another man's weakness is not your strength"

Raynman
July 25, 2010, 10:19 AM
man I envy some of you guys. I wish I could shut my brain off and buy into this delusion that we are just as good or better than the other test nations.

MohammedC
July 25, 2010, 10:23 AM
man I envy some of you guys. I wish I could shut my brain off and buy into this delusion that we are just as good or better than the other test nations.

You are right, comparing another 2 team to find our strength is not the right way.

zman
July 25, 2010, 10:58 AM
man I envy some of you guys. I wish I could shut my brain off and buy into this delusion that we are just as good or better than the other test nations.
LOL..the above view is clearly too extreme, but in terms of measuring progress some of us compartmentalize, we keep our performances in tests separate from that in ODI/T20 as we believe they are totally different beasts. I know your perspective on the importance of ODI/T20, so no quarrels there, but I do find it shocking when many try to undermine the importance of the shorter versions of the game by claiming test is the only "real form" of cricket and yet go around judging the team based on ODI/T20 performances despite the different formats requiring different sets of agenda, planning, mindset, coaching to acheive success.

Quick question to anybody who knows the answer: So DW's last assignment as coach was the series against India in '07 and JS's first assignment was the NZ series, now who coached bd team during their visit to SL?

Eshen
July 25, 2010, 12:04 PM
man I envy some of you guys. I wish I could shut my brain off and buy into this delusion that we are just as good or better than the other test nations.
You can't be a logical person and at same time wasting so much time following such a poor team :)

shakibrulz
July 25, 2010, 12:31 PM
Sort of biased analysis, I do not think Hilfy/Douggy/johnson are much short of a world class bowling line up. Though i believe the Anderson/broad/swann line up is better in England. But then again, batting isn't Pakistan's main strength now, not by a long shot.
Hilfy and Doughy are not bad at all, but still they're rookies @ intl. level (in tests). Johnson is in horrendous form, he couldn't just get his line and length right if you followed the match. Shane watson got wickets because he just kept it a bit more tighter, that's all. Rest of them bowled waywardly, sans Hilfy.

Another thing that you should consider, Bangladesh had a horrid 2nd innings at old trafford, when the conditions were nightmarish, so that definitely brought down the averages[/QUOTE]

Yep.

shakibrulz
July 25, 2010, 12:33 PM
You forgot PAK 1-1 and BD 0-2.

What is your conclusion by the way? We are a better team than PAK?

Point? It's time to get over the Siddons and batsmen bashing. Batsmen are doing just fine (maybe not exceptional, still just fine), compared to a H8 nation. it's the bowling which is a concerning, and this point is conveniently ignored by everyone.

WarWolf
July 25, 2010, 12:36 PM
And what you are trying to prove?

shakibrulz
July 25, 2010, 12:37 PM
A wiseman once said "another man's weakness is not your strength"

Nope, but it's better to stop whining for a moment and accept that the team despite being young has improved a LOT in the batting department. Pakistan's batting is not that weak, but their strength is bowling, and they compensated their weakness with that. It's time for BD to do that too.

shakibrulz
July 25, 2010, 12:43 PM
And what you are trying to prove?

That whining's going way OTT these days, as if the whole team (esp. batsmen) were some pathetic bunch of losers.

Thought that was kinda obvious.

Raynman
July 25, 2010, 02:53 PM
Point? It's time to get over the Siddons and batsmen bashing. Batsmen are doing just fine (maybe not exceptional, still just fine), compared to a H8 nation. it's the bowling which is a concerning, and this point is conveniently ignored by everyone.

Exactly. Let's get a head coach who realizes that cricket is played in three formats and requires bowling and fielding and keeping to win
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simon
July 25, 2010, 03:20 PM
all the success depend in our bowling.

wiseshah
July 25, 2010, 03:28 PM
I dont think aussie attack is worse than england. England is winning atm doesnt mean aussiesare worse than them

johnson, siddle, bollinger,hauritz, tait, nannes, haris can shine anyday without notice

Miraz
July 25, 2010, 04:11 PM
Hahaha... such a poor analogy. Bangladesh got thrashed 2-0 and Pakistan drew 1-1. Result speaks for itself.

Absolutely Siddonesque analogy. ;)

Equinox
July 25, 2010, 04:16 PM
It's not rocket science to figure out what he is trying to say, is it?! Batting-wise we did better than Pakistan in England against a better (according to shakibrulz and concurred by me) bowling attack. Pakistan won simply because of their bowlers. If Pakistan's level of bowling was at par with us then they would have suffered much more heavier defeats than us. And similarly if our bowling attack was near Pakistan's we would have won a Test match as well.

Conclusion: We need to improve our bowling or find better bowlers to win Test matches.

That whining's going way OTT these days, as if the whole team (esp. batsmen) were some pathetic bunch of losers.

Thought that was kinda obvious.
I think they forgot to take their anti-depressants today.

Exactly. Let's get a head coach who realizes that cricket is played in three formats and requires bowling and fielding and keeping to win
You think Aamer and Asif were coached to the level they are at today? We simply do not have the talent of a Mohammad Aamer in the country. And you can't expect the likes of Rubel Hossain to perform like Aamers.

One World
July 25, 2010, 07:39 PM
We have fathomed in test batting, nobody denies that in BC. But we have not reached the potential to focus on only batting and win a match, which is a yes for India most cases.

al-Sagar
July 25, 2010, 09:13 PM
Pakistan had to face a bunch of rookies (in test level) like Doghie, Hilfy, and Smithy and Johson was in horrendous form.

why dont u draw a comparison between the batting lineups between BD and Pak

BD played a more or less settled batting line up consissting of batsmen who have played for the last few years regularly.

while pakistan had 3-4 rookies in their line up.

when u call hilfenahaus, bollinger rookie ..... then what u call the batting lineup of umar amin, ajhar ali, recalled imran farhat ???

that Rookie PAK batting line up did fair enough.

and when i consider that the top 3 for BD averaged 34+ and the rest averaged below 20 that makes me feel we did not do well.

shakibrulz
July 25, 2010, 10:13 PM
It's not rocket science to figure out what he is trying to say, is it?! Batting-wise we did better than Pakistan in England against a better (according to shakibrulz and concurred by me) bowling attack. Pakistan won simply because of their bowlers. If Pakistan's level of bowling was at par with us then they would have suffered much more heavier defeats than us. And similarly if our bowling attack was near Pakistan's we would have won a Test match as well.

Conclusion: We need to improve our bowling or find better bowlers to win Test matches.


I think they forgot to take their anti-depressants today.


You think Aamer and Asif were coached to the level they are at today? We simply do not have the talent of a Mohammad Aamer in the country. And you can't expect the likes of Rubel Hossain to perform like Aamers.
THIS.

Phew, thanks for saving me a lot of time there, equinox. :doh:


why dont u draw a comparison between the batting lineups between BD and Pak

BD played a more or less settled batting line up consissting of batsmen who have played for the last few years regularly.

while pakistan had 3-4 rookies in their line up.

when u call hilfenahaus, bollinger rookie ..... then what u call the batting lineup of umar amin, ajhar ali, recalled imran farhat ???

that Rookie PAK batting line up did fair enough.

and when i consider that the top 3 for BD averaged 34+ and the rest averaged below 20 that makes me feel we did not do well.

Recalled Imran farhat? The guy played the NZ series, the Aus series in Aus.. What is that 2 year gap you are talking about?

And Jahurul played hardly 3 matches. Junaid and Imrul played like what 10 matches or so? Nothing more than Kamran, Umar, Salman, Malik, etc.

I agree about Amin and Azhar, totally forgot to mention that. Anyways my point is not to hail BD as better than Pak or something, read the post above by equinox.

Naimul_Hd
July 25, 2010, 10:51 PM
ohh man....thread title is so damn misleading !!! i thought BD would be playing against Paki in England...if this thread was some kind of joke, then u got me ! :lol:

aniksh1
July 25, 2010, 11:08 PM
Pak won against Oz...we could not even draw one against Eng...

shakibrulz
July 26, 2010, 12:18 AM
Did you guys even bother to read the entire thread before hitting the post button?

Naimul_Hd
July 26, 2010, 01:33 AM
Did you guys even bother to read the entire thread before hitting the post button?

nope....your very FIRST post was enough to hit the post button. btw, i wholeheartedly appreciate your attempt to compare BD's batting performance to Paki's batting performance in England. It is your title which spoils everything. :doh:

shakibrulz
July 26, 2010, 01:36 AM
nope....your very FIRST post was enough to hit the post button. btw, i wholeheartedly appreciate your attempt to compare BD's batting performance to Paki's batting performance in England. It is your title which spoils everything. :doh:

No it ain't enough, read equnox's post above, and you'll get an idea.

Well, it's just a title anyway. :D

dolcevita
July 26, 2010, 01:51 AM
We need a AAmeer , GUL and ASIF
that the point
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auntu
July 26, 2010, 01:55 AM
BD kittens facing top form Amir, Gul and Asif in English condition.

Do we really need any imagination to anticipate the inevitable?

lamisa
July 26, 2010, 05:03 AM
why dont u draw a comparison between the batting lineups between BD and Pak

BD played a more or less settled batting line up consissting of batsmen who have played for the last few years regularly.

while pakistan had 3-4 rookies in their line up.

when u call hilfenahaus, bollinger rookie ..... then what u call the batting lineup of umar amin, ajhar ali, recalled imran farhat ???

that Rookie PAK batting line up did fair enough.

and when i consider that the top 3 for BD averaged 34+ and the rest averaged below 20 that makes me feel we did not do well.

that's precisel the prob with pak.just wait till they get younis khan and md.yusuf back in the team and if shoaib malik gets his form back,this pakistan team can be very threatening indeed

al-Sagar
July 26, 2010, 05:16 AM
that's precisel the prob with pak.just wait till they get younis khan and md.yusuf back in the team and if shoaib malik gets his form back,this pakistan team can be very threatening indeed

when pak will get back malik, younis and yousuf back then some one else will retire or something else will happen. may be bowlers will get injured, banned for drug or doctorings, may be butt or the akmal brothers will get into some kinda controversy.

thats always the story of Pak cricket. whenever they start to put up a threatening side they do something controversial

lamisa
July 26, 2010, 05:16 AM
BD kittens facing top form Amir, Gul and Asif in English condition.

Do we really need any imagination to anticipate the inevitable?

did u just write that after reding the thread title,lol?

shakibrulz
July 26, 2010, 07:04 AM
We need a AAmeer , GUL and ASIF
that the point
<br />Posted via BC Mobile Edition (iPhone)

No, we need someone half good as them, that's the point.

And that's very much achievable, It's a shame that bowlers like Shafiul and Rubel are being wasted. They just need proper coaching from a bowling coach to work on their flaws, and undoubtedly BD will have a balanced side, I can assure that.

Otherwise there's absolutely no point in criticizing the batsmen where the bowling attack is toothless. What can a side possibly do with only one world class bowler?

simon
July 26, 2010, 08:18 AM
No, we need someone half good as them, that's the point.

And that's very much achievable, It's a shame that bowlers like Shafiul and Rubel are being wasted. They just need proper coaching from a bowling coach to work on their flaws, and undoubtedly BD will have a balanced side, I can assure that.

Otherwise there's absolutely no point in criticizing the batsmen where the bowling attack is toothless. What can a side possibly do with only one world class bowler?

I agree from the beginning with evry point of yours.
I don't think we r far away from becoming a decent bowling side in Test.
We hv a top class spinner Sakib that Pak or Aus or SA or WI don't have.
Shahadat on the other hand is getting 5 wckt haul not too rarely.
Shafi & Rubel ,specially Shafi has the potentiel to become more than a decent bowler.
Mash will be keen to be back in Tests & I won't be surprised if he gets back vs NZ.
We need to get rid of Razzq btw (in Tests.)

shakibrulz
July 26, 2010, 09:57 AM
I agree from the beginning with evry point of yours.
I don't think we r far away from becoming a decent bowling side in Test.
We hv a top class spinner Sakib that Pak or Aus or SA or WI don't have.
Shahadat on the other hand is getting 5 wckt haul not too rarely.
Shafi & Rubel ,specially Shafi has the potentiel to become more than a decent bowler.
Mash will be keen to be back in Tests & I won't be surprised if he gets back vs NZ.
We need to get rid of Razzq btw (in Tests.)

Whew finally, someone agrees with me, thanks mate!

I won't put my money on Shahadat, he's pretty useless trundler especially in overseas wickets. Same with Rasel too. /:)

On the other hand, I can't believe how low people rate rubel, he's got real good pace, and even now he's reasonably accurate, just needs to give him some assistance. Shafiul is the one with some cricketing brains, and has potential to be an excellent death over with proper guidance.

Razzak, yeah, he's fine for ODI's, but a big no for tests. They should find an alternative, maybe Shuvo? I don't follow BD domestic cricket, so pretty ignorant in these regards. :smug:

beshideshi
July 26, 2010, 10:30 AM
Whew finally, someone agrees with me, thanks mate!



Well I agree with you as well. BD's batting now is almost test standard, if Jahurul and Raqibul hit their marks then we should have a very decent batting order.

But I am afraid our bowling is still quite far from being a test quality attack, the only bowler who can take wickets constantly is Shakib. Shahadat, might be able to take 5fers very often, but he is still not a bowler we can rely on. Way too ineffective at times.
On the other hand Shaiful and Rubel should carry our bowling attack in the near future, specially Rubel, if he is allowed to grow, he will become a world class bowler. Mind you, its not everyday you find a Bangladeshi who can bowl at 90mph, we must utilize this guy.
But it's all in the future, right now we are really going to struggle in international cricket. Regardless of how well our batters play, due to our incompetent bowling 9/10 times we would be chasing the game.

shakibrulz
July 26, 2010, 11:45 AM
Well I agree with you as well. BD's batting now is almost test standard, if Jahurul and Raqibul hit their marks then we should have a very decent batting order.
I'm glad! :-D

But I am afraid our bowling is still quite far from being a test quality attack, the only bowler who can take wickets constantly is Shakib. Shahadat, might be able to take 5fers very often, but he is still not a bowler we can rely on. Way too ineffective at times.
Shadadat? You kidding me? The guy's done, he has even lost his pace. And he has just 2 5'fers, nothing to write home about.
Shafiul has shown his potential without literally zero international quality coaching at England. Rubel's pace can be helpful in both bouncy and dead wickets.

Shakib has 6 5'fers so far, and that's exceptional against world class teams. He's the only test class bowler BD have ATM. Give him time, he may well turn out to be one of the best spinners of our time.

On the other hand Shaiful and Rubel should carry our bowling attack in the near future, specially Rubel, if he is allowed to grow, he will become a world class bowler. Mind you, its not everyday you find a Bangladeshi who can bowl at 90mph, we must utilize this guy.

Precisely my thoughts. This is what we should pay attention to, I've hear enough of this whining. He hits 90 MPH fairly consistently, and still if you let such a talent go down the drains, that's criminal. Plus Shafiul too clocks around 85+, which is pretty decent to say the least. These two should lead the pace attack.


But it's all in the future, right now we are really going to struggle in international cricket. Regardless of how well our batters play, due to our incompetent bowling 9/10 times we would be chasing the game.

That's the whole point. What's the point of blaming batsmen for not showing intent and blah blah, instead of paying some attention to the bowling department? If they're potent enough to restrict opponent to anything below 280, we'll see BD win much much more matches.

simon
July 26, 2010, 02:51 PM
I'm glad! :-D

Shadadat? You kidding me? The guy's done, he has even lost his pace. And he has just 2 5'fers, nothing to write home about.
Shafiul has shown his potential without literally zero international quality coaching at England. Rubel's pace can be helpful in both bouncy and dead wickets.

Shakib has 6 5'fers so far, and that's exceptional against world class teams. He's the only test class bowler BD have ATM. Give him time, he may well turn out to be one of the best spinners of our time.


Precisely my thoughts. This is what we should pay attention to, I've hear enough of this whining. He hits 90 MPH fairly consistently, and still if you let such a talent go down the drains, that's criminal. Plus Shafiul too clocks around 85+, which is pretty decent to say the least. These two should lead the pace attack.



That's the whole point. What's the point of blaming batsmen for not showing intent and blah blah, instead of paying some attention to the bowling department? If they're potent enough to restrict opponent to anything below 280, we'll see BD win much much more matches.

For yr kind information Sakib got 7 5ers & Shahadat got 4 5ers.:)
Shahadat played 29 matches & Mash played 36 without any 5ers.:(
That's why me & Beshideshi bhai are yelling abt Shahadat.:-D

Imteaz
July 27, 2010, 03:04 AM
Poor.

One World
July 27, 2010, 03:12 AM
Poor.

Make it rich.

shakibrulz
July 27, 2010, 03:13 AM
For yr kind information Sakib got 7 5ers & Shahadat got 4 5ers.:)
Shahadat played 29 matches & Mash played 36 without any 5ers.:(
That's why me & Beshideshi bhai are yelling abt Shahadat.:-D

Yeah sorry about Shakib, almost forgot his 5fer in the eng tour, but Shahadat has 4? My bad, but still he's so inconsistent, like say he's the Ash of the bowling dept. :D

Shafiul is a must for test matches, with Rubel should be it. I'd prefer Mash anyday over Shahadat, coz he averages better than Shahadat without a single 5fer, and that shows he's way more consistent than Shahadat.

Imteaz
July 27, 2010, 03:22 AM
Make it rich.

Whats the output? We are better than Pakistan?

shakibrulz
July 27, 2010, 04:14 AM
Whats the output? We are better than Pakistan?

http://www.banglacricket.com/alochona/showpost.php?p=1193218&postcount=21

Please read atleast what we're talking about now, that'd save me a lot of time.

Imteaz
July 27, 2010, 07:17 AM
http://www.banglacricket.com/alochona/showpost.php?p=1193218&postcount=21

Please read atleast what we're talking about now, that'd save me a lot of time.

You definitely have logic. Let's see what the same Pakistani batting line up does against similar English bowling attack.

If Yunus & Yusuf join with them than it will be different. Thats the difference between us & them.

shakibrulz
July 27, 2010, 07:53 AM
You definitely have logic. Let's see what the same Pakistani batting line up does against similar English bowling attack.

If Yunus & Yusuf join with them than it will be different. Thats the difference between us & them.

Why compare apples with oranges? BD are not playing Bashars or Rafiques, are they?

Young side vs Young side, (Pakistan have more experienced players like Akmal, Malik, Butt, advantage Pak) - so fair comparison I guess.

Yeah, let's see how well they does against the English. But that's not our point anyways. That was to prove batting is not the major issue, it's the bowling. /:)

BANFAN
July 27, 2010, 08:01 AM
................ I'd prefer Mash anyday over Shahadat, coz he averages better than Shahadat without a single 5fer, and that shows he's way more consistent than Shahadat.

Some times at the cost of not bowling/avoiding death overs. A good bowler is one who can ball in any situation. SOmetimes it will go against him but some time he will succeed. Shahadat is one of them.

Mash's can be hit at will, that has been seen everytime he bolwled and the opponents had a target, they achieved it every time, irrespective of the size of the target.

Tigers_eye
July 27, 2010, 08:04 AM
Conclusion: Bd bowling is not test standard. batting department is doing fine. We can't compete against Pak because of Aamer and Asif. May be can compete against Aus. :) Since Johnson is throwing pies.

simon
July 27, 2010, 08:08 AM
Why compare apples with oranges? BD are not playing Bashars or Rafiques, are they?

Young side vs Young side, (Pakistan have more experienced players like Akmal, Malik, Butt, advantage Pak) - so fair comparison I guess.

Yeah, let's see how well they does against the English. But that's not our point anyways. That was to prove batting is not the major issue, it's the bowling. /:)

right.
Most of us are like Siddons,we bother too much abt our batting & ignore the bowling.
ATM bowling is the key to all sucess for us.

Imteaz
July 27, 2010, 09:22 AM
Why compare apples with oranges? BD are not playing Bashars or Rafiques, are they?

Young side vs Young side, (Pakistan have more experienced players like Akmal, Malik, Butt, advantage Pak) - so fair comparison I guess.

Yeah, let's see how well they does against the English. But that's not our point anyways. That was to prove batting is not the major issue, it's the bowling. /:)

Why don't we have that kind of bowlers?

Should be the main issue :)

Habib
July 27, 2010, 09:33 AM
Why don't we have that kind of bowlers?

Should be the main issue :)

Exactly. It's true that batting is not the main problem but OP too failed to indentify the actual problem.

shakibrulz
July 27, 2010, 11:18 AM
Some times at the cost of not bowling/avoiding death overs. A good bowler is one who can ball in any situation. SOmetimes it will go against him but some time he will succeed. Shahadat is one of them.

Mash's can be hit at will, that has been seen everytime he bolwled and the opponents had a target, they achieved it every time, irrespective of the size of the target.

Err, I'm talking about test matches alone. Not ODI matches.

Even in ODI's Mash's the kinda bowler who can get you a couple of early wickets. A strike bowler need not necessarily be a good death bowler, but from what I've seen recently, he had been pretty decent to say the least, got the yorkers right on spot.

shakibrulz
July 27, 2010, 11:27 AM
Conclusion: Bd bowling is not test standard. batting department is doing fine. We can't compete against Pak because of Aamer and Asif. May be can compete against Aus. :) Since Johnson is throwing pies.

Erm.. I won't exactly put it that way. :-D

The batting's fairly good to say the least, now if bowling too compliments that, then team will do way way better than what it's doing at present. Now it's not like BD has zero bowling resources, Shafiul and Rubel are great prospects and them with Shakib sounds a good combo. These guys got reasonably good pace, Shafiul especially, has a good cricketing brain. So a good bowling coach should help nicely.

Had the bowling been good enough, england tour would've been much more successful (especially the first test). Second test too, shoudl've capitalized better on good bowling conditions.

shakibrulz
July 27, 2010, 11:33 AM
Why don't we have that kind of bowlers?

Should be the main issue :)
What kind of bowlers?

These guys need proper coaching from a bowling coach, Rubel and Shafiul are good bowling prospects. It's a shame that a guy bowling 90MPH is not used effectively. Read about this news slinger Nuwan Pradeep, the SL cricket board found him from a soft ball event and he's developed now to a lethal pacer, potentially the next Malinga. Now what BD need is a decent international bowling coach, the potential is there, need to make the most out of it.

shakibrulz
July 27, 2010, 11:36 AM
Guys, the team defended <250 score against england in england, which even Aussies couldn't do. Now don't tell me this team doesn't have potential - this is serious lack of proper coaching, which can be only done by an international bowling coach.

simon
July 27, 2010, 11:55 AM
huh!
Pak bowlers r naturally more skilled than us for sure but look at who they r having as coach too: Waqar Younus(Head coach) & Aqib Javed(Bowling coach).
http://www.cricinfo.com/england-v-pakistan-2010/content/current/story/469253.html

And we r still depending on some non permanent coach.:mad:
I feel really sorry for Rubel,Shafi,Shahadat,Rasel & all /:)

Raynman
July 27, 2010, 01:10 PM
Shakibrulz,

Don't you agree that the team is purely focusing on batting and that is why the bowling is suffering? The team is stacked with batsmen as an insurance policy to make sure 240 is scored regardless of the match situation.

Bowling coach is a must but if the team thinking of batsman first and foremost and only and then everything else including fielding and keeping is the ugly stepchild then some other changes are needed as well.

Truth is, in terms of wins, our bowling has come through more often than the batting has.

magic boy
July 27, 2010, 01:22 PM
^ditto

also we haven't noticed any bowling-wise strategy to win a match in Siddons era. That's most probably the reason why Shakib most of the time choked while field setting, using right bowler. whereas Habibul Bashar did a great job with less powerful bowling attack under Whatmore's excellent strategy .

something to realize..motivational bowling+fielding strategy from perfect head coach!not just 250+ scoring !

revolver
July 27, 2010, 04:30 PM
Yipppeeee
<br />Posted via BC Mobile Edition (Blackberry)

godzilla
July 27, 2010, 10:29 PM
Why just compare Pakistan? What happend to the rest of the word who toured ENGLAND? Such an akward thread...

Imteaz
July 27, 2010, 11:44 PM
What kind of bowlers?

These guys need proper coaching from a bowling coach, Rubel and Shafiul are good bowling prospects. It's a shame that a guy bowling 90MPH is not used effectively. Read about this news slinger Nuwan Pradeep, the SL cricket board found him from a soft ball event and he's developed now to a lethal pacer, potentially the next Malinga. Now what BD need is a decent international bowling coach, the potential is there, need to make the most out of it.

Missed the point man!!!!

Anyway, hope we will get a good bowling coach and we will see whether your thought comes true or not. Not so easy, that you are thinking. (hope you won't miss the point again) :)

beshideshi
July 28, 2010, 01:02 AM
What kind of bowlers?

These guys need proper coaching from a bowling coach, Rubel and Shafiul are good bowling prospects. It's a shame that a guy bowling 90MPH is not used effectively. Read about this news slinger Nuwan Pradeep, the SL cricket board found him from a soft ball event and he's developed now to a lethal pacer, potentially the next Malinga. Now what BD need is a decent international bowling coach, the potential is there, need to make the most out of it.

I believe Imteaz bhai was talking about why we dont produce gems like Aamer/Asif.
And from where I see, its not the physical ability or the conditions[India with similar, if not better physical ability and conditions have not produced half as many quality seamers]

I think the production of talent has a lot to do with Wasim/Waqar/Imran etc. When a kid sees Wasim/Waqar destroy batting line ups at will he easily finds an idol in either one of them. And inspired by their success the kids want to be pacers like them at times, and have a certain goal. My point is, if there are 1000 kids trying to be like Wasim, there will be atleast 1 out of 1000 who will be half as good as Wasim.
On the other hand Bangladeshi kids have never seen a pacer as their idol, talk about Shanto, Prince or anyone from the pre-test era.

No one threatened batsmen at the international level and hence no kid wanted to be like them. Ask 10 random cricket following kids in Bangladesh, my guess is 4/10 would want to be a spinning all rounder[ala Shakib], 4/10 would want to be opening batsmen[ala Tamim] and the other two would want to be a spinner.
Unless we have a successful pacer at international level, I think we will keep on having this problem. Less kids will want to be pacers and as the total input would be lesser, getting a talent like Aamer would be even less likely.

Again, this is my opinion, might sound utter rubbish to many of you :)

Imteaz
July 28, 2010, 01:18 AM
I believe Imteaz bhai was talking about why we dont produce gems like Aamer/Asif.
And from where I see, its not the physical ability or the conditions[India with similar, if not better physical ability and conditions have not produced half as many quality seamers]

I think the production of talent has a lot to do with Wasim/Waqar/Imran etc. When a kid sees Wasim/Waqar destroy batting line ups at will he easily finds an idol in either one of them. And inspired by their success the kids want to be pacers like them at times, and have a certain goal. My point is, if there are 1000 kids trying to be like Wasim, there will be atleast 1 out of 1000 who will be half as good as Wasim.
On the other hand Bangladeshi kids have never seen a pacer as their idol, talk about Shanto, Prince or anyone from the pre-test era.

No one threatened batsmen at the international level and hence no kid wanted to be like them. Ask 10 random cricket following kids in Bangladesh, my guess is 4/10 would want to be a spinning all rounder[ala Shakib], 4/10 would want to be opening batsmen[ala Tamim] and the other two would want to be a spinner.
Unless we have a successful pacer at international level, I think we will keep on having this problem. Less kids will want to be pacers and as the total input would be lesser, getting a talent like Aamer would be even less likely.

Again, this is my opinion, might sound utter rubbish to many of you :)

90% correct. Let me add some more to make it 100%.

As a starter of Playing Test, we should not expect to get an Imran, Wasim or Waqar so early. Our initial duty is to set the overall structure and improve the Cricket culture within the country. Are we doing that?

Before doing that we won't get any consistant result.


Step 1: Set the overall structure and improve the Cricket culture within the country.
Result: Get frequent win (Not like our once in a blue moon)

Step 2: Try to win more frequently without hamparing the Pipeline of Player Supply
Result: You can have a sudden series win by using opponant weakness (may be test series :) )

Step 3: Keep it up, don't destroy it (Pakistan is doing that. Zimbabwe did so and coming back. I think the improvement rate is higher than us)
Result: We will be a Respectable test Nation and will never face the question "Why Bangladesh play test"

By this time we will get a Waqar or Aamir.

We are till waiting to complete Step 1.

But if only with a good bowling coach we get all the success than we don't have to wait too long :)

lamisa
July 28, 2010, 04:35 AM
huh!
Pak bowlers r naturally more skilled than us for sure but look at who they r having as coach too: Waqar Younus(Head coach) & Aqib Javed(Bowling coach).
http://www.cricinfo.com/england-v-pakistan-2010/content/current/story/469253.html

And we r still depending on some non permanent coach.:mad:
I feel really sorry for Rubel,Shafi,Shahadat,Rasel & all /:)

lol,do u even need a bowling coach when u have waqar younis as the head coach?

simon
July 28, 2010, 06:40 AM
Beshideshi & Imteaz bhais have added some good points,but both of u r focusing more abt creating a
Bdeshi "Waqar" or "Wasim" or "Imran".
But I think Shakibrulz bro is more insisting on the fact that bowlers like Shafi ,Rubel got the potentiel to become more than a decent bowler if they work under a good bowling coach.
And thus our bowling attack will get better & we will win some Test/Odi matches more frequently.:)
I also want the same.

dark mage
July 28, 2010, 08:20 AM
Man this sounds slightly pathetic, I mean why do we have to look how bad Pakistan did to make ourselves feel good? The fact is Pakistan drew against Australia, and its also fact that they have one of the finest bowling attacks in world cricket right now and its also a fact that they kicked our Asses in Asia Cup. While we were whipped by England apart from Tamim providing some entertainment and Junaid providing some resistance while our bowling got hit all over the park, especially our bowlers. Its also a fact that Pakistan have a positive mentality and will try to chase down a score or die trying while we are too quick too give up. So in conclusion, we are no match and this thread is abit pathetic. I m sorry to admit

shakibrulz
July 28, 2010, 10:44 PM
Man this sounds slightly pathetic, I mean why do we have to look how bad Pakistan did to make ourselves feel good? The fact is Pakistan drew against Australia, and its also fact that they have one of the finest bowling attacks in world cricket right now and its also a fact that they kicked our Asses in Asia Cup. While we were whipped by England apart from Tamim providing some entertainment and Junaid providing some resistance while our bowling got hit all over the park, especially our bowlers. Its also a fact that Pakistan have a positive mentality and will try to chase down a score or die trying while we are too quick too give up. So in conclusion, we are no match and this thread is abit pathetic. I m sorry to admit

Thanks for wasting one post without reading the entire thread.

dark mage
July 28, 2010, 10:58 PM
Thanks for wasting one post without reading the entire thread.

And thanks for clarifying it for me. I dont always have the time to read the entire thread before posting. I just posted according to what the Thread Opener seemed to be hinting at. In that case it needed to be explained abit more. Like BAN vs PAK batting in english conditions against england and stuff, but when you first see the thread title and the explanation that came with it, it seems like our perfomance against England is being compared to that of Pakistan in order to somehow prove we are better which we clearly are not

Imteaz
July 29, 2010, 12:36 AM
........which we clearly are not

The Fact.

beshideshi
July 29, 2010, 12:43 AM
And thanks for clarifying it for me. I dont always have the time to read the entire thread before posting. I just posted according to what the Thread Opener seemed to be hinting at. In that case it needed to be explained abit more. Like BAN vs PAK batting in english conditions against england and stuff, but when you first see the thread title and the explanation that came with it, it seems like our perfomance against England is being compared to that of Pakistan in order to somehow prove we are better which we clearly are not

The thread was meant to show how Bangladesh batting has developed, 10.5 people out of 10 have accepted that Bangladesh's bowling attack is far inferior to that of Pakistans'. And as a team we are worse as well, but the point the thread opener made was, if our bowling was half as good as the Pakistani bowling line up, we would have yielded a similar result to Pakistan.
Hope this makes sense.

Imteaz
July 29, 2010, 12:48 AM
The thread was meant to show how Bangladesh batting has developed, 10.5 people out of 10 have accepted that Bangladesh's bowling attack is far inferior to that of Pakistans'. And as a team we are worse as well, but the point the thread opener made was, if our bowling was half as good as the Pakistani bowling line up, we would have yielded a similar result to Pakistan.
Hope this makes sense.

Somehow I cannot agree on that. May be statistically we got better result than Pakistan in English condition but Pakistan won a test match.

If you are true than, if we improve our bowling, we will win a test match in England against Australia or England?

Dream. Hope it would be true :)

Tiger-ess
July 29, 2010, 04:40 AM
When I read the title of this thread I thought a series between Pakistan and Bangladesh in England had been announced. I was getting extremly happy all ready to take out my card and freaking buy some tickets!!! Thanks shakbirulz:mad:

beshideshi
July 29, 2010, 04:50 AM
Somehow I cannot agree on that. May be statistically we got better result than Pakistan in English condition but Pakistan won a test match.

If you are true than, if we improve our bowling, we will win a test match in England against Australia or England?

Dream. Hope it would be true :)

Half as good was exaggerating a lot. I should have said "if our bowling attack was 85-90% of Pakistan's, we may have had the same result" Went overboard, apologies.


and as my mistakenly written posts suggests, we actually could have won the Lords test with Pakistan-like bowling. We scored 664 runs in that test, we will have to wait on the Pak-Eng test to estimate whether that was a safe score against England or not. But if you think the Aus-Pak series might be a good estimate, then these are the runs scored by Aus against Pakistan; Game 1: 587, Game 2: 437.
It suggests that if we had Pakistan's bowling line up we may well have won the games, but then again, these are al hypothetical BS, nor are we playing Aus in England and more importantly we are not getting the Pakistani bowling line up.

shakibrulz
July 29, 2010, 10:02 AM
Half as good was exaggerating a lot. I should have said "if our bowling attack was 85-90% of Pakistan's, we may have had the same result" Went overboard, apologies.

Nah bring it down to 50. If BD had half as good pacers as Aamer and Asif, for sure the result would've been different. Spinners had to toil hard on a fast bowlers track, that's such a shame. :-|

And lesser the total = lesser pressure on the batsmen.

simon
July 29, 2010, 11:10 AM
When I read the title of this thread I thought a series between Pakistan and Bangladesh in England had been announced. I was getting extremly happy all ready to take out my card and freaking buy some tickets!!! Thanks shakbirulz:mad:

:lol:
happened to me too.
This thread is too :confused:ing.

Raynman
July 29, 2010, 01:38 PM
ENG on day 1 vs. PAK 331/4 on day1 of 1st test vs. BD 362/4.

Based on the logic shown by the thread opener and the supporters here, I would like to conclude that BD bowling is just as good as PAK bowling. :D

A point that has to be made is that scoring 240 steadily does not show steady improvement when that total poses no threat to the opposition. Question is, are the batsmen capable of scoring 240 to win when the other team knows that restricting them to a score below is a must.

All this talk of test batting improvement is a moot point because it is really pointless till it brings a Draw or a Win. The only true marker of improvement is the ability to take advantage of situations to put the team in command or to show fight from a bad situation to start making the opposition sweat. In both the wins, this hunger and fight was shown from the bowlers and not the batsmen.

Imteaz
July 30, 2010, 12:42 AM
Win a Test Match is so Easy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Unfortunately that is not. I can tell one thing our batters are not yet that qualified. This thread is about to compare bowling ability. Let me point out some issues regarding batting

1. Why Tamim score back to back 100 in England? For his team or for ensuring his name in Lord's Honor Board. In both case he got out just after he passed 100. As a responsible batter he should try to prolong his innings and stay in wicket. If he tells "Ami ebhabei Kheli" than I will say "Tumi ebhabei khelle tomar team kokhono benefited hobe na". Tamim should think about his team first than about his personal achievement.

2. Bangladeshi batters scored only when there was a complete sunshine & wicket got dry enough for not getting any advantage by English bowlers. (You can watch the vedio)

3. Our 3 top order (Tamim, Imrul & Junaid) got run thats why we dare to compare our batters with Pakistani. Don't forget scoring runs added lesser value to Pakistani batters comparing to team performance. For us, they scored run is enough. For Pakistan they have to win otherwise "Shommanjonok Porajoi" is not acceptable to them.

Only statistics won't give you the actual result. Statistically we did better but please think in which situation & when. So, only improving bowling by 50% or 80% will never give you Test Win. You need something more.

Bangladesh has the condition afterlearnt how to use 10 years of playing test. They yet to learn how to play against condition. We do not have any player who can perform against condition.

shakibrulz
July 30, 2010, 01:45 AM
ENG on day 1 vs. PAK 331/4 on day1 of 1st test vs. BD 362/4.

Based on the logic shown by the thread opener and the supporters here, I would like to conclude that BD bowling is just as good as PAK bowling. :D
Gimme a break. Akmal dropped an absolute sitter which would've put england in deep trouble. Plus a stumping chance. It was basically sydney redux.

Asif and Aamer bowled exceptionally again on a flat track, but their spinners let them down. Plus some piss poor captiancy field placements, commies were really bashing Butt for that. You should've known had you watched that match.


A point that has to be made is that scoring 240 steadily does not show steady improvement when that total poses no threat to the opposition. Question is, are the batsmen capable of scoring 240 to win when the other team knows that restricting them to a score below is a must.

All this talk of test batting improvement is a moot point because it is really pointless till it brings a Draw or a Win. The only true marker of improvement is the ability to take advantage of situations to put the team in command or to show fight from a bad situation to start making the opposition sweat. In both the wins, this hunger and fight was shown from the bowlers and not the batsmen.

How about understanding your weakness and compensating that with some good bowling? How many of the batsmen a good average in FC/LA cricket? On the other hand the bowlers have a decent enough average which shows bowling attack is not used to it's full potential. Shafiul is one prime example for that.

These young guys plays in totally alien conditions which generally are good for pacers, and still you realistically expect them to score some magical 400-500 or something? Again, even if they score this 400, there's no point because if the bowlers bowl well, they've done it superbly restricting the opposition to cheap totals. But on all other days, they've been milked like a freaking cow for runs. Unless you solve that problem, you're putting a lot of pressure on the batting lineup, which translates into poor form.

Yes, there are issues in the batting , but even more so with the bowling, which are being overlooked.

Raynman
July 30, 2010, 06:29 AM
Thank you for agreeing with me that each performance should be judged by its own merits and trying to gauge our performance based on numbers we are not involved in is to put it simply .... ridiculous.

beshideshi
July 30, 2010, 07:51 AM
Hey Raynman, hope you are watching the test match. Despite Kamran Akmal trying his best to ensure England get out of Pakistani reach, Pakistan still managed to get England out for 354. With bowling as good as Pakistan's, we would have had a serious sniff of a draw/win.
And about the improvements in test, 3 of our top 8 test scores took place this year, we were able to get past 300 several times, compare this to the era when crossing 200 was an achievement. Remember, I am not saying we have reached the pinnacle, but if you dont want to credit the team only because you hate the coach, it would be rather unfair. When the average score goes up, every batsman's average goes up, time spent while batting goes up I say that's improvement.

shakibrulz
July 30, 2010, 10:06 AM
Hey Raynman, hope you are watching the test match. Despite Kamran Akmal trying his best to ensure England get out of Pakistani reach, Pakistan still managed to get England out for 354. With bowling as good as Pakistan's, we would have had a serious sniff of a draw/win.
And about the improvements in test, 3 of our top 8 test scores took place this year, we were able to get past 300 several times, compare this to the era when crossing 200 was an achievement. Remember, I am not saying we have reached the pinnacle, but if you dont want to credit the team only because you hate the coach, it would be rather unfair. When the average score goes up, every batsman's average goes up, time spent while batting goes up I say that's improvement.

Couldn't have said it better meself BD.

I don't mind constructive criticisms, but bashing these lads even after putting forth a good effort is absolutely ridiculous. This is England, and it takes balls to play in english conditions especially against england. Can't believe some guys are turning a blind eye to this fact.

Raynman
July 30, 2010, 10:22 AM
@bangladeshi & shakibrulz:

The opening thread draws a conclusion that our batting is currently test standard based on Pakistan’s performance against Australia. I am disputing this on the notion that 1) the two performances are not comparable because of different opponents and match situations and expectations and 2) our Test batting is not as improved as some are trying to force feed down the rest of our throats. The other piece to the puzzle is the idea that all that’s missing for the bowlers is guidance by a bowling coach.

While there is no questioning the batting is better today than it was a few years back and the bowling needs significant changes there are other factors that need to be addressed. First off, the BD batting totals and averages do not show the full picture. The numbers are inflated largely due to 2 or 3 players. Also our 2nd innings totals can not be compared to other teams because in most cases we are/were fighting to avoid a follow on or chasing a total which we will most likely not achieve. So the pressure and the concentration of the opposition bowlers are completely different from a match between PAK and AUS where the game is open for a result either way till the very end in a lot of cases. Its like saying 2-0 and 4-2 in Soccer meant the same thing in terms of performance where the truth may have been the 2-0 was a hotly contested 1-0 game where the 2nd goal came a result of breakdown on the other team trying to score a tying goal. The 4-2 on the other hand was a onesided 4-1 where the other team scored a late goal to come out with the same difference. The results maybe the same but the performance was not. Plus the batsmen have really improved in staying at the crease and not at shot selection and definitely not at the scoring rate which is a strong component of even Test cricket these days.

Now to our bowlers. They have some soul searching to do but part of the truth is that they have been made the step children in the current team by the management. The team is padded with batsmen so the batsmen have less pressure knowing there are others to carry the weight which the bowlers do not. The bowlers have also been punished by poor fielding and keeping. (Why is that a justified case for PAK bowlers but not ours?).

We have 26 international matches this year to refer to for analysis of where we stand. To try to sugarcoat something and vilify the bowlers even further by pointing to a team that has nothing to do with Bangladesh it purely ridiculous (I stand by this word to describe this thread)

shakibrulz
July 30, 2010, 10:23 AM
Thank you for agreeing with me that each performance should be judged by its own merits and trying to gauge our performance based on numbers we are not involved in is to put it simply .... ridiculous.

Yeah, don't go by numbers, BD batsmen in England was > Pak in England, atleast if you were watching the same match as I did. And Aussies are a bunch who doesn't have a clue how to exploit the English conditions, now see what happens while Pak batsmen faced English bowlers in english conditions. My point is had the bowlers done a better job, the results would've been different.
And had asif not mopped the lower middle order/tail quickly, this would've been a DISASTER for them.

shakibrulz
July 30, 2010, 10:59 AM
@bangladeshi & shakibrulz:

The opening thread draws a conclusion that our batting is currently test standard based on Pakistan’s performance against Australia. I am disputing this on the notion that 1) the two performances are not comparable because of different opponents and match situations and expectations and 2) our Test batting is not as improved as some are trying to force feed down the rest of our throats. The other piece to the puzzle is the idea that all that’s missing for the bowlers is guidance by a bowling coach.


While there is no questioning the batting is better today than it was a few years back and the bowling needs significant changes there are other factors that need to be addressed. First off, the BD batting totals and averages do not show the full picture. The numbers are inflated largely due to 2 or 3 players. Also our 2nd innings totals can not be compared to other teams because in most cases we are/were fighting to avoid a follow on or chasing a total which we will most likely not achieve. So the pressure and the concentration of the opposition bowlers are completely different from a match between PAK and AUS where the game is open for a result either way till the very end in a lot of cases. Its like saying 2-0 and 4-2 in Soccer meant the same thing in terms of performance where the truth may have been the 2-0 was a hotly contested 1-0 game where the 2nd goal came a result of breakdown on the other team trying to score a tying goal. The 4-2 on the other hand was a onesided 4-1 where the other team scored a late goal to come out with the same difference. The results maybe the same but the performance was not. Plus the batsmen have really improved in staying at the crease and not at shot selection and definitely not at the scoring rate which is a strong component of even Test cricket these days.

You're again missing the point.

This is not to prove anything about BD batting, the point is Pakistan managed to draw the series despite the poor display from the batsmen.

Now I'm not saying BD batting is world class yet, a side which was never known for it's batting has improved a lot - and you can't expect these young guys to realistically amass mammoth totals in English soil. Top order was fairly consistent. middle order and lower middle order was not. The problem is that you're not just ready to look beyond scorecards. Now just see what they made in the first innings - a mammoth 419 and 505. Now, do you for real believe that after such mammoth score, you can play without any pressure in bowling condition? YES/NO?


Now to our bowlers. They have some soul searching to do but part of the truth is that they have been made the step children in the current team by the management. The team is padded with batsmen so the batsmen have less pressure knowing there are others to carry the weight which the bowlers do not. The bowlers have also been punished by poor fielding and keeping. (Why is that a justified case for PAK bowlers but not ours?).

Wow, that's a great find. Batsmen can play freely because the bowling is soo good and concedes mammoth 400's and 500's in bowler friendly conditions? And yeah, they can obviously bat without pressure because there are lots of Lara's and Tendulkar's in the lineup to score centuries to overcome that lead. Are you for real mate? These guys are mere mortals, who doesn't even have a good FC record, and you expect to turn them to Bradmans and Laras in whatever conditions? Good for you!

And about fielding and keeping, BDeshi fielders are jhonty rhodes compared to Pak, I don't recall any wkt keeper being as horrendous as Khatmal. Atleast BD have some good fielders like Zahurul, Shakib, etc.

We have 26 international matches this year to refer to for analysis of where we stand. To try to sugarcoat something and vilify the bowlers even further by pointing to a team that has nothing to do with Bangladesh it purely ridiculous (I stand by this word to describe this thread)

Didn't you get what I'm trying to say? Or are you simply ignoring it?

I'm saying the bowling part is often being overlooked as people are so keen in Siddons bashing. Batting may not be exceptional, but is not pathetic as it used to be, and is fairly consistent. My point is bowling has to show that atleast level of improvement, but is still probably almost as worse as it used to be. Some five wicket hauls by Shakib without ANY assistance from others are just not gonna be enough to win matches.

See Shafiul's interview, he doesn't even know how to bowl a LEG CUTTER! What the heck?! Now that is what I call ALARMING.

I'm not even interested in taking this further, I just wanted to make meself clear, and I hope I did. I'm no siddons fan either, but what you guys are doing is bashing him for everything overlooking every other major issues. Now if you think it's Siddons that is responsible for the current state of the team, more than lacking a good bowling coach, I give up.

MatinSux
July 30, 2010, 11:50 AM
Shakibrulz, we understand that BD test batting have improved a lot, but that is not a reason to compare BD with Pakistan or India. They are a much better team than Bangladesh despite Pakistan's batting woes. And even if BD bowling clicks, the batting won't as seen in 2nd ODI against ENG, sadly that's the way it has been for Bangladesh.

Personally, I wasn't happy with our middle/low order batting display. How do you not capitalize from 185-1?

simon
July 30, 2010, 12:45 PM
So far what I've seen from the Pak batsmen in England against Aussie & today against Eng,I've no doubt that our Test batting is way better than Pak test batting.
That's what this thread is trying to prove here,don't understnd why some people are getting the wrong message.:waiting:

zman
July 30, 2010, 05:05 PM
First off, the BD batting totals and averages do not show the full picture. The numbers are inflated largely due to 2 or 3 players. Also our 2nd innings totals can not be compared to other teams because in most cases we are/were fighting to avoid a follow on or chasing a total which we will most likely not achieve. So the pressure and the concentration of the opposition bowlers are completely different from a match between PAK and AUS where the game is open for a result either way till the very end in a lot of cases.
<link rel="File-List" href="file:///D:%5CDOCUME%7E2%5CZee%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtm l1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> This is by no means a silly attempt to make our batting look world class rather my personal interpretation of our batting performances in test matches from a different perspective…

From the lopsidedly bottom heavy scorecards of the past one could easily argue that our familiar test scores of 190-220 were pretty inflated due to the fact that after a routine top order collapse we’d repeatedly find ourselves precariously placed at scores of 30/4 and 50/5, before the bowling side would lose their intensity and allow the lower middle order to put some runs on the board and take the score to say 150/7, after which the lower order would make a last ditch effort and slog their way to 190-220.
<o:p> </o:p>
Now bowlers are always fresh and ready to go when the opening batsmen take center stage; with the brand new ball in their hand they're best equipped to express their talent and unleash the fury on the batsmen and eager to stamp their authority on the ball game. Due to the level of difficulty these batsmen must face, there are very few teams today that can boast a solid and consistently performing top order—India and SA being the only two that come to my mind. This is the reason why Bd top order’s ability to weather the storm in the first few sessions somewhat consistently through an interesting mix of aggression (Tamim/Junaid) and determination (Kayes/Junaid/Jaharul) is pretty remarkable.
<o:p> </o:p>
What’s been disappointing though is the mind-bloggingly below par performances of the middle and lower order batsmen that follow, who were actually performing very well until recently. I personally think and am hoping it’s just a matter of time before they get back on track and this drought ends, but I’d take a top heavy score sheet over a bottom heavy one as a sign of improvement any day.

beshideshi
July 30, 2010, 09:41 PM
Shakibrulz, we understand that BD test batting have improved a lot, but that is not a reason to compare BD with Pakistan or India. They are a much better team than Bangladesh despite Pakistan's batting woes. And even if BD bowling clicks, the batting won't as seen in 2nd ODI against ENG, sadly that's the way it has been for Bangladesh.

Personally, I wasn't happy with our middle/low order batting display. How do you not capitalize from 185-1?

As Shakibrulz said earlier, you are missing the point he is making. He said that if Bangladesh had Pakistan's bowling line up and Bangladesh's batting line up we would have been able to make some serious inroads in the tests.
He is not merely comparing the batting line ups, instead illustrating the potentials Bangladesh have if our bowling was upto Pakistan's standards.

shujan
July 30, 2010, 09:57 PM
A wiseman once said "another man's weakness is not your strength"
Wiseman man is kinda wrong.

IanW
August 1, 2010, 07:29 AM
Bangladesh's performance in England is looking better and better.

80 all out ...

shakibrulz
August 1, 2010, 07:57 AM
Bangladesh's performance in England is looking better and better.

80 all out ...

The worst score by any opposition against England :floor:

Though my purpose wasn't to show BD>Pak batting now, glad that it's being proven.

One really feels for their bowlers, probably the best in the world, with such a poor batting lineup.

hmmm
August 1, 2010, 08:59 AM
as i said in other thread

maybe england didnt bowl well or they didnt take bangladesh seriously

Nadim
August 1, 2010, 09:14 AM
^^

hmmm:floor:

shakibrulz
August 1, 2010, 09:27 AM
as i said in other thread

LOL, then they should be even lesser concerned about Pakistan, atleast they have Tamim to worry in BD lineup.

beshideshi
August 1, 2010, 09:30 AM
as i said in other thread

Yeah exactly, why give credit to our batsmen when they deserve it? Lets just say we won the 2nd ODI because England did not play well or take us seriously.
Bangladesh batted reasonably well against England back home as well, gave England a mighty scare in the 2nd ODI, Mirpur.
I know opponents used to say "we take Bangladesh seriously" but if you look at the celebration of the English players after the 2nd ODI win, you will see they actually meant it this time.

Raynman
August 1, 2010, 09:53 AM
I find it embarassing that we have to take comfort in Pakistan's woe to feel like we've accomplished something which we obviously have not. Although some improvements have been made our batting is not quality test standard and Pakistan's recent result is an implosion on their end coming down to our level and not us rising to get to their level (that would be cause for celebration and a thread such as this). Putting the bowling equal, do you think the BD boys would have batted out a win against ENG?

The key is the mindset. We suffered a huge wicket loss and followed up with an innings defeat. Lets see how Pak handle it. Are they lion hearted for a fight back or Siddons hearted for playing to lose.

simon
August 1, 2010, 10:31 AM
Wiseman man is kinda wrong.

:lol:

Neel Here
August 1, 2010, 11:55 AM
as i said in other thread

hmmm..... /:)

Tiger444
August 1, 2010, 12:03 PM
I find it embarassing that we have to take comfort in Pakistan's woe to feel like we've accomplished something which we obviously have not. Although some improvements have been made our batting is not quality test standard and Pakistan's recent result is an implosion on their end coming down to our level and not us rising to get to their level (that would be cause for celebration and a thread such as this). Putting the bowling equal, do you think the BD boys would have batted out a win against ENG?

The key is the mindset. We suffered a huge wicket loss and followed up with an innings defeat. Lets see how Pak handle it. Are they lion hearted for a fight back or Siddons hearted for playing to lose.


Ya we really have nothing to be happy for regardless to what happened with Pakistan against England..fact is we got killed in both matches..we can get bragging rights if we beat Pakistan in a test match and series with them but that would be hard..our batting might be stronger but who cares if we can't win matches? Once we start winning matches then we can start to compare ourselves with Pakistan but for me we still just beat them once in an ODI and never beat them in a test..while they have killed us basically every time we matched up with them..

shakibrulz
August 1, 2010, 10:36 PM
Ya we really have nothing to be happy for regardless to what happened with Pakistan against England..fact is we got killed in both matches..we can get bragging rights if we beat Pakistan in a test match and series with them but that would be hard..our batting might be stronger but who cares if we can't win matches? Once we start winning matches then we can start to compare ourselves with Pakistan but for me we still just beat them once in an ODI and never beat them in a test..while they have killed us basically every time we matched up with them..

I think otherwise - they might beat/draw against pak in tests but I don't think will win any ODIs. Their batsmen are pretty good limited overs cricketers.

If BD plays Pak in good turning tracks or even decent swinging tracks they are pretty much beatable (with no Moyo and YoYo).

lamisa
August 2, 2010, 04:09 AM
^^^now that yusuf chacha is back in the pakistan team,let's see how pakistan copes with england...

hmmm
August 2, 2010, 07:42 AM
I think otherwise - they might beat/draw against pak in tests but I don't think will win any ODIs. Their batsmen are pretty good limited overs cricketers.

If BD plays Pak in good turning tracks or even decent swinging tracks they are pretty much beatable (with no Moyo and YoYo).

in ur dreams buddy lol

Tiger444
August 2, 2010, 08:06 AM
I think otherwise - they might beat/draw against pak in tests but I don't think will win any ODIs. Their batsmen are pretty good limited overs cricketers.

If BD plays Pak in good turning tracks or even decent swinging tracks they are pretty much beatable (with no Moyo and YoYo).

Swinging tracks? We would get killed then haha..our batsmen are terrible against swinging deliveries and a dose of Asif would finish our batsmen off..I say we need a featherbed track that is slow/low..pretty much what our pitches are..then we have a chance to win/draw against them..even good turning tracks could pose problems for us..even though we play spin pretty well it leads to our downfall as well..so I think a flat track with low bounce is best for us..

beshideshi
August 2, 2010, 08:22 AM
I think otherwise - they might beat/draw against pak in tests but I don't think will win any ODIs. Their batsmen are pretty good limited overs cricketers.

If BD plays Pak in good turning tracks or even decent swinging tracks they are pretty much beatable (with no Moyo and YoYo).

Swinging pitches, not so sure. But if we play in a sporty wicket I think Pakistan are beatable. but others should realize the difference between beatable and a weak team. In an ODI any team is beatable by Bangladesh now, but we won't win all the games, likewise in tests Pakistan are very beatable.

Also, i do not think MoYo would make a huge difference, he is well past his prime, struggled in NZ/Aus. I do think he would certainly up the standards, but wont transfer Pakistan batting line up into a world class one overnight.

Tiger Manc
August 9, 2010, 12:06 PM
correct me if i'm wrong but the pakis haven't scored 300 in england yet have they? Our top score is something like 382 (i think) let's see if they can beat that.

shakibrulz
August 9, 2010, 10:25 PM
correct me if i'm wrong but the pakis haven't scored 300 in england yet have they? Our top score is something like 382 (i think) let's see if they can beat that.

Correction, let's see if they can beat it with Moyo in :D

22Yards
August 9, 2010, 10:35 PM
if only we had a pace attack out of nothing like them.. BD is a better team. Shaky like them Yes but more stable comparatively.

SS
August 10, 2010, 09:52 AM
As rightly said by Abbas administration is really the problem sometimes when it comes to performance of the entire team and also future planning...(http://www.cricinfo.com/pakistan/content/current/story/471884.html)

BD, Pak administration showing the way...atleast in BD administration gets a free ride without any protest!

There is no actions yet and all seems to be "OK" with it.

PoorFan
August 10, 2010, 09:57 AM
^^ Unfortunately BCB just failing to catch up with PCB for that matter, may not take long though.

Raynman
August 10, 2010, 11:01 AM
I'm assuming someone will be opening a BD batting better than IND after IND's performance against NZ today?

lamisa
August 10, 2010, 11:10 AM
^^^no,but certainly i liked to witness india going down that bad in the subcontinent!none of the indian batsmen managed to reach even 20!!!

Habib
August 10, 2010, 11:10 AM
I'm assuming someone will be opening a BD batting better than IND after IND's performance against NZ today?

That's a good one Raynman vai.

Beamer
August 10, 2010, 11:27 AM
I'm assuming someone will be opening a BD batting better than IND after IND's performance against NZ today?

If someone does that, I am afraid, I will have to question his/her sanity.

On the other topic on hand, as you know, I firmly believe that our test batting has improved, which includes the mental aspect of it, but at the same time, I do agree that comparing Pakistanis as a measuring stick, or take solace in their misfortune is a bit self-defeating. I am pretty sure Ireland will do much better than Pakistanis if they played England, maybe even better than us. However, I agree 100% with Nasser Hussain when he said that Tamim is much much better than anyone from current Pakistan team. There is no debate on that. Some have taken that as a compliment, and rightly so, some also have questioned the standard of the compliment when held against this Pakistan team. I guess one way to avoid all this is to hold him up against batsmen from other G8 teams, and see where he stacks up. For sure in the WI team, he will among the top three. We can do a team by team as well..

Raynman
August 10, 2010, 11:45 AM
If someone does that, I am afraid, I will have to question his/her sanity.

On the other topic on hand, as you know, I firmly believe that our test batting has improved, which includes the mental aspect of it, but at the same time, I do agree that comparing Pakistanis as a measuring stick, or take solace in their misfortune is a bit self-defeating. I am pretty sure Ireland will do much better than Pakistanis if they played England, maybe even better than us. However, I agree 100% with Nasser Hussain when he said that Tamim is much much better than anyone from current Pakistan team. There is no debate on that. Some have taken that as a compliment, and rightly so, some also have questioned the standard of the compliment when held against this Pakistan team. I guess one way to avoid all this is to hold him up against batsmen from other G8 teams, and see where he stacks up. For sure in the WI team, he will among the top three. We can do a team by team as well..

I'm in agreement with you on improvements in test batting but I don't believe it is up to a competitive standard yet (I'm not sure if you agree or disagree on that). Its definitely on the right track in some aspects but I think the coaching/approach at this point is too focused on a defensive mindset and trying to bat out as opposed to score runs and build an innings that puts pressure on the bowlers.

Anyways, my whole qualm on this thread has been using other teams in different match situations to measure out improvement on.

Beamer
August 10, 2010, 12:03 PM
I agree. We have ways ways ways to go. We still collapse, albeit not as frequently, but overall we have done well compared to previous years and achieved far more consistency in all conditions, home and specially abroad. The curb should go upwards. There will be peaks and valleys, but the peaks should get higher. Not long ago, we had set batsmen getting out in 40's-50's, now they are going past 80's-100 more frequently. Next up, is to convert hundreds to bigger hundreds.

I don't think the whole batting card has defensive mindset. Likes of Imrul and Junaid probably tries too hard to compliment Tamim. Junaid surely can open up more if he wants to. Imrul is who I worry. He is good as long as he compliments Tamim in the eyes of fans, but for his own sake, he should try to improve himself. Being the other member of a good/fast opening partnership is all good as long as Tamim carries the boat, but when Tamim goes through lean times ( which he will ), he will be the one to get the chop. Know what I mean? Sakib is too aggressive as well for my liking. So, we got two out of top six who are really fast scorers ( or at least has the intent to do so ), which is not too defensive IMO.

Tiger Manc
September 3, 2010, 06:19 AM
so pakistans highest score was 308 in 6 test matches in england (2 against aussies and 4 against england). They couldn't beat our 382 against England

They scored 2,182 runs at 181.8 per innings 2 of which they weren't bowled out.

We scored 1003 runs at 250.8 per innings.

Tiger Manc
September 3, 2010, 06:53 AM
If we just use England as a comparison then pakistans average is even lower. In 4 test matches they've scored 1,307 runs at an average of 163.4 per innings with 1 innings where they weren't bowled out.

shakibrulz
September 3, 2010, 09:40 AM
:D good bumpzzz :P