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shakibrulz
September 11, 2010, 06:34 AM
2 of the best spinners of the world at present. Whom do you rate highly as a spinner in tests? (Shakib pwns Swann with the bat, of course)

Average:
Swann averages a whopping 26.56 from 24 matches. Shakib averages a fine 32.08 from 21 matches.

Away:
Shakib's average away from home is better than swann (28.14 against 28.69 of swann).

Minnows:
He played against 1 weak side (WI) but the rest were all relatively strong sides (India, England, SA, NZ, SL) compared to Swann who played against WI, BD, and a weak Pak side. Swann is yet to play NZ & SLand Shakib is yet to play Pak & Aus.

5 fers
Shakib has 7 5 fers against all the countries he faced (1 against WI).
Swann has 9 (3 against BD, 2 against WI).

Of course the obvious facts that Shakib is just 23 and is the only world class bowler of his team.

PS: Wrist slitters can stay away from the thread. Constructive criticisms/opinions are welcome :-p

ahnaf
September 11, 2010, 07:11 AM
Nice comparison...

simon
September 11, 2010, 07:22 AM
good analysis.
Two very good points which do not appear in stats is the "age" & the fact that Sakib is the only top class bwlr in the side.He doesn't get bowling prtnrs like Anderson or Broad.
Considering all these little but important facts I will rate Sakib higher.

_Rafi_
September 11, 2010, 07:32 AM
Spinners get better as they get older. Swann at 23 was at best an ordinary spinner. But as he grown up he really improved his bowling. Shakib is a good learner. We can expect him to improve his spin and accuracy as he will get older.
Swann atm getting more swing than Shakib consistently. This is imo advantage for Swann. But his arm ball is not as lethal as Shakib's one. Shakib's armer is more deceptive. It will be his strongest weapon in future.
But atm on the basis of performence Swann is better. He atleast flighting ball more than Shakib and could bowl attacking as he is under no pressure to keep it tight from one end. His teammates often setting himself up for destruction. In case of Shakib, he gets no support from and from teammates. He has to do everything by himself. Missing catches and stumping in his ball regularly also affecting his overall progress.

simon
September 11, 2010, 08:21 AM
^^^^hmmm,bhery true!

riankhan
September 11, 2010, 08:22 AM
Spinners get better as they get older. Swann at 23 was at best an ordinary spinner. But as he grown up he really improved his bowling. Shakib is a good learner. We can expect him to improve his spin and accuracy as he will get older.
Swann atm getting more swing than Shakib consistently. This is imo advantage for Swann. But his arm ball is not as lethal as Shakib's one. Shakib's armer is more deceptive. It will be his strongest weapon in future.
But atm on the basis of performence Swann is better. He atleast flighting ball more than Shakib and could bowl attacking as he is under no pressure to keep it tight from one end. His teammates often setting himself up for destruction. In case of Shakib, he gets no support from and from teammates. He has to do everything by himself. Missing catches and stumping in his ball regularly also affecting his overall progress.

Nice read and thoughtful observation. :goal:

Zunaid
September 11, 2010, 08:54 AM
^^^ Swann v Shakib comparison reminds me of the old Vettori v Rafique days. I had written something on it for BC:

The SLA Wars: M Rafique vs. D Vettori (18th October, 2004) (http://www.banglacricket.com/html/article.php?item=256)

Unfortunately, Rafique was near the end of his career while Vettori is still going strong.

Both Swann and Sakib have some ways to go. Let's revisit 3 years down the road.

beshideshi
September 11, 2010, 09:28 AM
A little comparison :
Swann has a marvelous trajectory and uses his drift better than Shakib.
Swann's arm ball[or the straighter one] is quite handy as he generally spins the ball big.
Swann has more experience and uses his head better than Shakib.
BUT
Shakib has a better dip, if you look at a few of his dismissals, batsmen were beaten even before the ball landed.
Shakib has much weaker bowlers/fielder to back him up, usually the pressure created by him is let off from the other side.
Even though we are supposed to have turning tracks in BD, the turn is slow and low, doesn't hurt the batters. Compared to the pitches in England where it turns with a lot of venom.

I think both Shakib and Swann are tremendous[people under estimate Swann] spinners, right now Swann is ahead of Shakib, but as time goes by Shakib will certainly take over.

Habib
September 11, 2010, 09:34 AM
Spinners get better as they get older. Swann at 23 was at best an ordinary spinner. But as he grown up he really improved his bowling. Shakib is a good learner. We can expect him to improve his spin and accuracy as he will get older.
Swann atm getting more swing than Shakib consistently. This is imo advantage for Swann. But his arm ball is not as lethal as Shakib's one. Shakib's armer is more deceptive. It will be his strongest weapon in future.
But atm on the basis of performence Swann is better. He atleast flighting ball more than Shakib and could bowl attacking as he is under no pressure to keep it tight from one end. His teammates often setting himself up for destruction. In case of Shakib, he gets no support from and from teammates. He has to do everything by himself. Missing catches and stumping in his ball regularly also affecting his overall progress.

Agree with everything said here.
Shakib's arm ball is definitely better as he is a SLA. And off spinners like Swann are not really known for delivering lethal armour. They mostly try to spin the ball into the batsman(right handed) from offside.

FagunerAgun
September 11, 2010, 10:26 AM
I am waiting for the upcoming battle between Shakib and Vitori - The David and The Goliath.

shakibrulz
September 11, 2010, 10:33 AM
Great to see some great ontopic discussion take place :)

Spinners get better as they get older. Swann at 23 was at best an ordinary spinner. But as he grown up he really improved his bowling. Shakib is a good learner. We can expect him to improve his spin and accuracy as he will get older.
Swann atm getting more swing than Shakib consistently. This is imo advantage for Swann. But his arm ball is not as lethal as Shakib's one. Shakib's armer is more deceptive. It will be his strongest weapon in future.
But atm on the basis of performence Swann is better. He atleast flighting ball more than Shakib and could bowl attacking as he is under no pressure to keep it tight from one end. His teammates often setting himself up for destruction. In case of Shakib, he gets no support from and from teammates. He has to do everything by himself. Missing catches and stumping in his ball regularly also affecting his overall progress.
Good post.

Agree on most counts. And about Shakib flighting the ball, yeah, he can't afford to do so because the other end would be leaking runs so he'd have to bear that in mind too. Still what he's achieved in this single handedly is astounding, for that single reason I'd rate him above Swann.

About catches, stumping etc, agree on that counts too, but I didn't wanna sound lame stating such excuses, so purposefully left that out :D

shakibrulz
September 11, 2010, 10:41 AM
A little comparison :
Swann has a marvelous trajectory and uses his drift better than Shakib.
Swann's arm ball[or the straighter one] is quite handy as he generally spins the ball big.
Swann has more experience and uses his head better than Shakib.
BUT
Shakib has a better dip, if you look at a few of his dismissals, batsmen were beaten even before the ball landed.
Shakib has much weaker bowlers/fielder to back him up, usually the pressure created by him is let off from the other side.
Even though we are supposed to have turning tracks in BD, the turn is slow and low, doesn't hurt the batters. Compared to the pitches in England where it turns with a lot of venom.

I think both Shakib and Swann are tremendous[people under estimate Swann] spinners, right now Swann is ahead of Shakib, but as time goes by Shakib will certainly take over.

Under estimate? Bro, in which world are you living? :-p

Ask any kid who is the best spinner at the moment and they will reply Swann. No one seems to care about Shakib. Ice is shockingly underrated, I swear. And I also feel the hype has made batsmen go into a shell against swann, and has earned him more advantage. He does relatively poor when batsman attacks him. Tamim, Umar Akmal, Graeme Smith, etc did well against him. But Shaks even if gets smoked early, comes back to do well, like say, the 5 fer in England.

Taking nothing away from Swann, such a class player.


And agree with you, on rest of the part, points well made. :)

Another impressive thing about Shaks is his ability to get good turn with even great pace. Remember that Ian bell dismissal ala Shane warne? That one oozed class. Simply unplayable, that too against a set batsman.

bangla-red
September 11, 2010, 10:56 AM
Swann's better...

shabbir
September 11, 2010, 11:17 AM
guys may be I am wrong at the moment I will consider swann little better than Sakib.

shakibrulz
September 11, 2010, 11:20 AM
Swann's better...

guys may be I am wrong at the moment I will consider swann little better than Sakib.

LOL feel free to express your thought, that's the point of a discussion. We need different views here.

Swann has a dream average to back him, but if you look beyond the stats, Shakib bowled way better than his average. :)

beshideshi
September 11, 2010, 11:48 AM
Under estimate? Bro, in which world are you living? :-p

Ask any kid who is the best spinner at the moment and they will reply Swann. No one seems to care about Shakib. Ice is shockingly underrated, I swear. And I also feel the hype has made batsmen go into a shell against swann, and has earned him more advantage. He does relatively poor when batsman attacks him. Tamim, Umar Akmal, Graeme Smith, etc did well against him. But Shaks even if gets smoked early, comes back to do well, like say, the 5 fer in England.

Taking nothing away from Swann, such a class player.


And agree with you, on rest of the part, points well made. :)

Another impressive thing about Shaks is his ability to get good turn with even great pace. Remember that Ian bell dismissal ala Shane warne? That one oozed class. Simply unplayable, that too against a set batsman.
Of course Shak is under-rated, so is almost every other Bangladeshi player, remember how shocked Ian Botham was when Rubel was clocking 90mph? Botham thought it was impossible for a Bangladeshi to reach 90mph. The elitists still don't care about Bangladesh unless their team plays us.

about Swann, I think i could not pass on my message, he is highly rated, but still under-rated :P
In my opinion he is a better bowler than Harbhajjan, or even maybe Vettori[the best spinners according to the experts] A good ashes performance would certainly give him the approval he deserves.

And the Ian bell dismissal, i dream about that delivery every day. The drift, the flight, the grip, the turn.........it was one of the finest deliveries ever. i re-watch that video till my computer catches fire :)

shakibrulz
September 11, 2010, 12:04 PM
Of course Shak is under-rated, so is almost every other Bangladeshi player, remember how shocked Ian Botham was when Rubel was clocking 90mph? Botham thought it was impossible for a Bangladeshi to reach 90mph. The elitists still don't care about Bangladesh unless their team plays us.
Fully agree, sad fact that.

about Swann, I think i could not pass on my message, he is highly rated, but still under-rated :P
In my opinion he is a better bowler than Harbhajjan, or even maybe Vettori[the best spinners according to the experts] A good ashes performance would certainly give him the approval he deserves.

LOL, I seriously think you're having the wrong ideas here. Swann is the hottest property ATM, and I seriously don't think anyone questioning that including cricketing experts. Harbhajan is now a dart chucker who's a mere shadow of the matchwinner we had during the Dada era. And vettori is not a great spinner atleast for me, he's a fine allrounder, but never in the class of Swannie and Shaks. :smug:

And the Ian bell dismissal, i dream about that delivery every day. The drift, the flight, the grip, the turn.........it was one of the finest deliveries ever. i re-watch that video till my computer catches fire :)
I agree, still makes my jaw drop. No one notices the pace at which he bowled that delivery.. Swann could probably turn that, but that landed on a short-good length area, sending bell to backfoot, came quick and took his stumps. What a ripper. Literally UNPLAYABLE.:notworthy: I

Habib
September 11, 2010, 12:11 PM
Okay but wasn't that a fluke? :)

beshideshi
September 11, 2010, 12:19 PM
LOL, I seriously think you're having the wrong ideas here. Swann is the hottest property ATM, and I seriously don't think anyone questioning that including cricketing experts. Harbhajan is now a dart chucker who's a mere shadow of the matchwinner we had during the Dada era. And vettori is not a great spinner atleast for me, he's a fine allrounder, but never in the class of Swannie and Shaks. :smug:


I

I may be wrong, if you say Swann is the hottest property right now, its well justified. i live in Aus, and according to people/media here[surprise surprise!] Swann is a nothing spinner. [Also, some say Steve Smith is the combination of bowler Warne and batsman ponting, from what I have seen he may as well be the combination of the batsman Warne and the bowler Ponting]
It would be interesting to see how much Swann goes for in the IPL auction.

simon
September 11, 2010, 06:13 PM
and also Sakib didn't get fined while driving in UK but Swann did.:-D

chol_bd123
September 11, 2010, 07:19 PM
As much I like Sakib, Swann is definetly a much better bowler. I have watched him play in many games, adn it seems like everyone struggles against him ALL THE TIME! The Pakis are terrified of this guy. The Paki Spinners fail to make a mark bowling in the same pitch that Swann bowls in.

Swann picks up more wickets at a consistent basis unlike Sakib. Sakib hasnt been bowling that good since his match against playing NZ. Sakib is becoming impatient as a bowler and tries to do too many things during an over. His batting his despicable now. I think he might just turn into another Ashraful.

Please don't take this personally but i think Sakib doesnt deserve this much credit for getting 7 wickets for his match with WCC. First, he is bowling against 2nd class batsmen. We wanted him to get this many wickets per innings from the start. Second, the pitch was terrible which explains why the other bowlers that bowled alongside Sakib had low economy rates too.

Plz, dont get me wrong. I really like Shakib and hope he continues to grow.

Zeeshan
September 11, 2010, 07:31 PM
I don't get it. How come we are not comparing Shakib with Glen McGrath? :-/

Equinox
September 11, 2010, 07:40 PM
As much I like Sakib, Swann is definetly a much better bowler. I have watched him play in many games, adn it seems like everyone struggles against him ALL THE TIME! The Pakis are terrified of this guy. The Paki Spinners fail to make a mark bowling in the same pitch that Swann bowls in.

Swann picks up more wickets at a consistent basis unlike Sakib. Sakib hasnt been bowling that good since his match against playing NZ. Sakib is becoming impatient as a bowler and tries to do too many things during an over. His batting his despicable now. I think he might just turn into another Ashraful.

Please don't take this personally but i think Sakib doesnt deserve this much credit for getting 7 wickets for his match with WCC. First, he is bowling against 2nd class batsmen. We wanted him to get this many wickets per innings from the start. Second, the pitch was terrible which explains why the other bowlers that bowled alongside Sakib had low economy rates too.

Plz, dont get me wrong. I really like Shakib and hope he continues to grow.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/oliverbrett/tamim_shakb595.jpg
Tamim can't decide which bat to hit you with...jk :-p

Ajfar
September 11, 2010, 08:52 PM
I don't get it. How come we are not comparing Shakib with Glen McGrath? :-/

how come we are not comparing akram khan with inzi. dui jonere tow shorir e extra load chilo
<br />Posted via BC Mobile Edition (iPhone)

al-Sagar
September 11, 2010, 09:40 PM
I don't get it. How come we are not comparing Shakib with Glen McGrath? :-/

why no body mentioning lionnel messi, papa bouba dioup, martin dahlin, karol poborsky , gabriel batistuta , venessa williams, mika hakkinen, md ali ..... etc etc etc

shakibrulz
September 11, 2010, 11:16 PM
As much I like Sakib, Swann is definetly a much better bowler. I have watched him play in many games, adn it seems like everyone struggles against him ALL THE TIME! The Pakis are terrified of this guy. The Paki Spinners fail to make a mark bowling in the same pitch that Swann bowls in.
No denying that Swann is class. But Paki batsmen getting terrified is not at all the benchmark of 'greatness'. Heck, hope you remember the pakis giving a generous 5 wicket haul for Marcus North, which is first 5fer of even his FC career. :-D

And about Paki spinners, Ajmal is not a turner of the ball. In fact, he's lately a doosra bowler who balls the odd offspinner :-D

Swann picks up more wickets at a consistent basis unlike Sakib. Sakib hasnt been bowling that good since his match against playing NZ. Sakib is becoming impatient as a bowler and tries to do too many things during an over. His batting his despicable now. I think he might just turn into another Ashraful.

LOL, dragging in his batting to this discussion, what's the point? He's not in golden form after the NZ test, but he's doing fine. He bowled much better than his figure suggests, especially that 5'fer vs England. Lets see how Swann performs when he plays outside home against a stronger opponent like SL, India at home. I bet his magical figures will get ruined. And I hope he performs well at Ashes @ Australia too.

Please don't take this personally but i think Sakib doesnt deserve this much credit for getting 7 wickets for his match with WCC. First, he is bowling against 2nd class batsmen. We wanted him to get this many wickets per innings from the start. Second, the pitch was terrible which explains why the other bowlers that bowled alongside Sakib had low economy rates too.

Erm.. You've been praising Swann for picking wickets in turning wickets vs Pakistan, and belittling Shaks achievements? How Ironic. And where did I mention his 7 wicket haul in this thread? Again, this is in no way related to his 7 wicket haul, it just coincided with this good performance by Shaks. That's all. :-D


Plz, dont get me wrong. I really like Shakib and hope he continues to grow.
Nope mate, we need more counter arguments to make the thread interesting.


I don't get it. How come we are not comparing Shakib with Glen McGrath? :-/

Top post, thanks for coming.

Habib
September 11, 2010, 11:17 PM
@chol_bd 123. While I agree that Swann is the better bowler ATM, Shakib will never turn into another Ashraful. He has already achieved more than Ashraful can dream of. Even if he declines he'll still remain out of reach of Ashraful. So I do hope you will stop bringing Ashraful in every other thread involving Shakib & drawing such comparisons in the future.

shakibrulz
September 11, 2010, 11:19 PM
I may be wrong, if you say Swann is the hottest property right now, its well justified. i live in Aus, and according to people/media here[surprise surprise!] Swann is a nothing spinner. [Also, some say Steve Smith is the combination of bowler Warne and batsman ponting, from what I have seen he may as well be the combination of the batsman Warne and the bowler Ponting]
It would be interesting to see how much Swann goes for in the IPL auction.

:floor: Yep, Aussie journos at their best. Warne clone is gonna get molested vs the series against India at home. :D

And hope swannie pwns them with a 5'fer in Australia :waiting:

Murad
September 11, 2010, 11:36 PM
Swann 2 Shakib 1

al-Sagar
September 11, 2010, 11:42 PM
For me Swann is a far more mature cricketer and shakib is still learning and has a lot to improve. so when shakib becomes as mature as swann is now shakib will be far far better then swann. if u give marks out of 100 for current ability, swann is now 75 and shakib is 65. swann may get to 80 but shakib can reach even 95.

magic boy
September 12, 2010, 12:28 AM
Ice Man > Bradman

nakibahmed
September 12, 2010, 03:50 AM
And hope swannie pwns them with a 5'fer in Australia :waiting:

the sydney test !

lamisa
September 12, 2010, 04:44 AM
forgive my ignorance but what's an arm ball?

riankhan
September 12, 2010, 06:25 AM
For me Swann is a far more mature cricketer and shakib is still learning and has a lot to improve. so when shakib becomes as mature as swann is now shakib will be far far better then swann. if u give marks out of 100 for current ability, swann is now 75 and shakib is 65. swann may get to 80 but shakib can reach even 95.

Apnar mukhe (keyboard e) ful-chondon poruk.....:notworthy:

shakibrulz
September 12, 2010, 06:49 AM
forgive my ignorance but what's an arm ball?

Arm ball is the variation delivery of Off spinners (swann) and Slow Left Arm Orthodox Spinners (Shakib). The arm ball is a straighter delivery bowled without turn and which may help in deceiving batsman who expects the ball to turn.

shakibrulz
September 12, 2010, 07:00 AM
For me Swann is a far more mature cricketer and shakib is still learning and has a lot to improve. so when shakib becomes as mature as swann is now shakib will be far far better then swann. if u give marks out of 100 for current ability, swann is now 75 and shakib is 65. swann may get to 80 but shakib can reach even 95.

Maturity is again a subjective term. Of course, Swann is more 'matured' in terms of experience. But what Shakib has done under pressure despite his inexperience is quite something. The bowlers at the other end mostly gets smoked so that he has to be brought in when it's hardly 10 overs or so. I'd say 90% of the bowlers would've failed to thrive in such situations.

I'd say it's more like about 70 for Shakib and 75 for Swannie IMO.

HereWeGo
September 12, 2010, 12:55 PM
My 2 cents ...

Shakib looks ineffective against left handers while Swann is equally effective against both RHB and LHB....

jisaan
September 12, 2010, 01:11 PM
Under estimate? Bro, in which world are you living? :-p

Ask any kid who is the best spinner at the moment and they will reply Swann.


in which world are you living? !!!!!!????
hope vettori hasn't died yet! (but if it is the kids' choice only, i am ready to withdraw my words.)

jisaan
September 12, 2010, 01:14 PM
my verdict:

Swann with the bat
Shakib with the ball!

Miraz
September 12, 2010, 01:43 PM
Swann is a much more threatening bowler than Shakib. He also got more variations than Shakib, but Shakib is not too far behind.

Swann is a big turner while Shakib has more control over his deliveries.

Swann will get 9 in my book while Shakib will score 7.5-8.

(Purely as a spinner)

lamisa
September 13, 2010, 05:42 AM
thanks shakibrulz!

shakibrulz
September 13, 2010, 08:01 AM
in which world are you living? !!!!!!????
hope vettori hasn't died yet! (but if it is the kids' choice only, i am ready to withdraw my words.)
Best spinner at the moment is SWANN. Period. Shakib follows him closely. Vettor ain't even in the equation.

Swann is a much more threatening bowler than Shakib. He also got more variations than Shakib, but Shakib is not too far behind.

Swann is a big turner while Shakib has more control over his deliveries.

Swann will get 9 in my book while Shakib will score 7.5-8.

(Purely as a spinner)

Fair enough. :)

Zunaid
September 13, 2010, 08:03 AM
This is the kind of thread that makes BC and makes me come back.

shakibrulz
September 13, 2010, 09:49 AM
This is the kind of thread that makes BC and makes me come back.

Where there's Ice there's fun! :D

Thanks mate for the encouragement

Henry Crun
September 14, 2010, 01:34 PM
Swann is the best finger spinner in international cricket by some distance. He certainly puts a lot of revs on the ball and can obtain turn on most pitches. Shakib does not appear to spin it as much and bowls with a slightly flatter trajectory. He's only 23 though, he can go on to achieve great things.

Neel Here
September 14, 2010, 02:08 PM
swann averages 40 against India, the only team he has faced that plays spin well (he hasn't played SL so far), heroics against spin illiterate teams like west indies or battingless ones like pakistan are a quite different matter.
not to mention he gets to bowl with a quality pace attack that keeps up the pressure at the other end.
shakib OTOH has to bowl with a most mediocre bowling attack which can be milked at will. as a result opponents play safe against his bowling and reduces his wkt tally.

calling swann the best finger spinner in the world is sheer bluster, not that we haven't heard the like of it before from english media !
'graeme hick the next bradman' anyone ? ;)

Where there's Ice there's fun! :D

Thanks mate for the encouragement

:-D

Henry Crun
September 14, 2010, 02:29 PM
We'll have to agree to disagree then. Swann is by some distance the most effective spinner England has had since Derek Underwood (yes, it's been that long) and he compares favourably with every spinner I've seen playing against England since he got into the side.

roman
September 14, 2010, 02:46 PM
bohut jotil comparison cholse...lets see...we have to remember that Sawn plays for England. And Shak plays for BD. Shak usually comes to bowl when the opponent batsmen are well settled in (Thanks to our toothless bowling attack) and we all know that a well settled batsman can make a good ball look really bad. Thats not always the case for Swan. Having said that I think Swan is a great bowler but I must say that whatever Shak has achieved as a BD player is extraordinary. If shak can become a turner of the ball I am sure he'll go far away...

Neel Here
September 14, 2010, 03:06 PM
Henry, I don't doubt swann is a good bowler and miles ahead of the likes of monty and giles but a player needs to play against all opposition and perform to be called the best. in spite of swann's seniority, he hasn't played that many more matches than shakib. (btw I'm talking only about tests, don't care enough about the other formats except major tournaments)

he needs to play the lankans for one and a better performance against Ind would go a long way in crowning him best, if anyone doesn't trump him that is.
fair enough ?

p.s. I won't use the best tag for ANY bowler at the moment, now that the two giants have retired. I do think shakib is a little ahead keeping in mind the team around him. I think I've already mentioned that.

Tiger444
September 14, 2010, 06:04 PM
Great point Neel Here..Shakib's the only test class bowler we have and the rest are mediocre bowlers..England on the other hand have test class bowlers who give support for Swann..it's honestly tough to say..their pretty even it seems..

shakibrulz
September 14, 2010, 10:49 PM
Swann is the best finger spinner in international cricket by some distance. He certainly puts a lot of revs on the ball and can obtain turn on most pitches. Shakib does not appear to spin it as much and bowls with a slightly flatter trajectory. He's only 23 though, he can go on to achieve great things.

I'm tired of hearing this. It's not that Shakib can't give it a nice flight, he can't mostly afford to because mostly when he comes into bowl the bowlers at the other end would've been leaking runs. Heck, the guy at many times had to bring himself within the PP overs coz the opening bowlers have been pathetic. Any cricketer with brains would ball a little flatter in such a scenario. And got great turn and bounce even in the first innings of the 2nd test vs England.

shakibrulz
September 14, 2010, 10:55 PM
Henry, I don't doubt swann is a good bowler and miles ahead of the likes of monty and giles but a player needs to play against all opposition and perform to be called the best. in spite of swann's seniority, he hasn't played that many more matches than shakib. (btw I'm talking only about tests, don't care enough about the other formats except major tournaments)

he needs to play the lankans for one and a better performance against Ind would go a long way in crowning him best, if anyone doesn't trump him that is.
fair enough ?

p.s. I won't use the best tag for ANY bowler at the moment, now that the two giants have retired. I do think shakib is a little ahead keeping in mind the team around him. I think I've already mentioned that.

Fully agreed. Both are class but Shakib inches ahead for me for the same reason. :) Had he got a half decent batting and bowling attack to back him, he would've had way better figures to back him, let alone fielding.

Lets see how he performs at home against quality players of spin ala India. SL is no tough opposition away from home, but if England is touring flat SL wickets, then I bet he'll get spanked.

shakibrulz
September 24, 2010, 12:24 AM
<table class="StoryengineTable" border="0"><caption>Best averages in ODIs for spinners since Jan 2009 against top eight teams* (Qual: 150 overs)</caption> <tbody> <tr class="head"> <td>Bowler</td> <td>ODIs</td> <td>Wickets</td> <td>Average</td> <td>Econ rate</td> <td>Strike rate</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Graeme Swann</td> <td>23</td> <td>31</td> <td>24.29</td> <td>4.56</td> <td>31.9</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Daniel Vettori</td> <td>26</td> <td>30</td> <td>27.83</td> <td>4.05</td> <td>41.2</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Saeed Ajmal</td> <td>28</td> <td>38</td> <td>28.71</td> <td>4.45</td> <td>38.6</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Harbhajan Singh</td> <td>30</td> <td>38</td> <td>31.60</td> <td>4.92</td> <td>38.5</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Nathan Hauritz</td> <td>45</td> <td>50</td> <td>33.06</td> <td>4.69</td> <td>42.2</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Shakib Al Hasan</td> <td>21</td> <td>25</td> <td>34.52</td> <td>4.45</td> <td>46.4</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Shahid Afridi</td> <td>32</td> <td>39</td> <td>34.64</td> <td>4.59</td> <td>45.2</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Johan Botha</td> <td>20</td> <td>22</td> <td>40.40</td> <td>4.85</td> <td>49.9</td></tr></tbody></table>

<table class="StoryengineTable" border="0"><caption>Spinners in the middle overs (16th to 40th) in ODIs against the top eight teams since Jan 2009 (Qual: 100 overs)</caption> <tbody> <tr class="head"> <td>Spinner</td> <td>Balls</td> <td>Wickets</td> <td>Average</td> <td>Econ rate</td> <td>Strike rate</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Saeed Ajmal</td> <td>1100</td> <td>26</td> <td>28.19</td> <td>3.99</td> <td>42.31</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Graeme Swann</td> <td>864</td> <td>23</td> <td>28.34</td> <td>4.52</td> <td>37.57</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Shahid Afridi</td> <td>1550</td> <td>37</td> <td>31.18</td> <td>4.46</td> <td>41.89</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Nathan Hauritz</td> <td>1827</td> <td>42</td> <td>33.30</td> <td>4.59</td> <td>43.50</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Muttiah Muralitharan</td> <td>683</td> <td>16</td> <td>33.75</td> <td>4.74</td> <td>42.69</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Harbhajan Singh</td> <td>1159</td> <td>26</td> <td>34.38</td> <td>4.62</td> <td>44.58</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Daniel Vettori</td> <td>966</td> <td>17</td> <td>38.05</td> <td>4.01</td> <td>56.82</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Shakib Al Hasan</td> <td>726</td> <td>13</td> <td>40.38</td> <td>4.33</td> <td>55.85</td></tr></tbody></table>

<table class="StoryengineTable" border="0"><caption>Best Test spinners against top teams since Jan 2009 (Qual: 250 overs)</caption> <tbody> <tr class="head"> <td>Bowler</td> <td>Tests</td> <td>Wickets</td> <td>Average</td> <td>Strike rate</td> <td>5WI/ 10WM</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Graeme Swann</td> <td>18</td> <td>83</td> <td>24.95</td> <td>51.0</td> <td>6/ 0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Shakib Al Hasan</td> <td>10</td> <td>45</td> <td>33.00</td> <td>67.7</td> <td>3/ 0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Nathan Hauritz</td> <td>12</td> <td>44</td> <td>33.56</td> <td>66.8</td> <td>2/ 0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Harbhajan Singh</td> <td>10</td> <td>41</td> <td>35.80</td> <td>74.9</td> <td>2/ 0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Rangana Herath</td> <td>8</td> <td>35</td> <td>36.34</td> <td>70.8</td> <td>4/ 0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Saeed Ajmal</td> <td>8</td> <td>30</td> <td>37.13</td> <td>79.1</td> <td>1/ 0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Sulieman Benn</td> <td>12</td> <td>42</td> <td>37.54</td> <td>80.3</td> <td>3/ 0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Danish Kaneria</td> <td>10</td> <td>41</td> <td>39.60</td> <td>65.9</td> <td>3/ 0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Daniel Vettori</td> <td>10</td> <td>34</td> <td>40.41</td> <td>91.2</td> <td>0/ 0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Muttiah Muralitharan</td> <td>8</td> <td>31</td> <td>41.74</td> <td>78.6</td> <td>1/ 0</td></tr></tbody></table>

http://www.cricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/478473.html

Good article. So Swann is statistically the best spinner in the world right now. Shakib should've done better :waiting:

shakibrulz
September 24, 2010, 12:33 AM
To be fair to shakib, he didn't get a test against pakistan who are crap against spin. Otherwise impressive performance in the tests. ODI bowling needs to get better though.

Zeeshan
September 24, 2010, 01:29 AM
^^^ Swann v Shakib comparison reminds me of the old Vettori v Rafique days. I had written something on it for BC:

The SLA Wars: M Rafique vs. D Vettori (18th October, 2004) (http://www.banglacricket.com/html/article.php?item=256)

Unfortunately, Rafique was near the end of his career while Vettori is still going strong.

Both Swann and Sakib have some ways to go. Let's revisit 3 years down the road.

Good dig. We need more of these from the members in fp (minus the punny jokes like money in mouse :p )

simon
September 24, 2010, 05:03 AM
Daniel Vettori had a terrible time.:shocked:

dolcevita
September 27, 2010, 09:02 AM
If shakib play 4 test against current pakistani team , in england pitch he could easly take 5 wickets / match
<br />Posted via BC Mobile Edition (iPhone)

shakibrulz
September 27, 2010, 09:08 AM
If shakib play 4 test against current pakistani team , in england pitch he could easly take 5 wickets / match
<br />Posted via BC Mobile Edition (iPhone)

Agree.. Pak vs Shakib even @ BD would be interesting now :-D

Habib
September 27, 2010, 10:07 AM
Agree.. Pak vs Shakib even @ BD would be interesting now :-D

English pitches are more spin friendly than BD pitches right now IMO. Even Shakib admits that.

Neel Here
September 27, 2010, 03:02 PM
BCB should get soil from elsewhere. banglar sticky entel maati diya fast pitch hoibo na.

lamisa
September 28, 2010, 10:22 AM
are amader shakib cement diye dhalai kora pitcheo wicket pabe!

simon
September 28, 2010, 12:39 PM
^^^that's the spirit.:-D

22Yards
September 28, 2010, 06:16 PM
This is the kind of thread that makes BC and makes me come back.

Yeah I see a league of unbiased critics around here which is good to see.

RazabQ
September 28, 2010, 08:08 PM
from the other thread on Shakib:Yardy is not replacing Swann any time soon. Yardy is more of a Bangladeshi SLA in that he skids the ball in more than relying on RPMs. Speaking of RPMs, the thing that Swann has got going for him is that, in current times, he's the biggest ripper of the ball. Can't recall the article but apparently there's a technology that measures RPMs imparted to a ball by a spinner and Swann is tops at the world right now.

Yes like any spinner he can be put off his length if you have a batsman who is good at playing the slog-sweep. Spinners rely on pitching the ball at a point where you are not sure whether to come forward or go back; by dint of dip/loop/flight, he's trying to trick the batsman and Swann's handy overspin is very good at getting that. When you slog sweep you basically force the spinner to shorten his length and that in turn improves your chances of playing him off the pitch/later.

I agree that Swann is no Warne when it comes to reading batsmen or Kumble when it comes to toughness or Murali when it comes to wizardry, but he is the spinner most capable of bowling an unplayable delivery right now. Go back to how he bowled Ponting in the 2009 Ashes or how he bowled Yousuf in the recent ODI. His accolades are well deserved and in this current streak/form, I suspect he'll be a handful in the bouncy pitches of Australia. Other than Clarke, and maybe Punters, none of the other batsmen are "twinkle-toed" and only Hussey can execute the slog sweep with any consistency.
Now onto Shakib. I reckon Shakib turns the ball the most of the Bangladeshi finger spinners. That U-19 kid (Noor Hossain?) might rip it more but he's a leggie. Still, Ice-Man's RPMs are at best adequate for a world-class twirler; he probably just shades Vettori on that front. Rather, IMHO, Shakib's two best attributes are his increasing mastery of variations of pace and the clever use of angle of delivery (round-arm vs. straight arm) to get variation in dip/drift. Add to that one of the better Arm-deliveries in the business and a tough-SOB mindset and you have the makings of someone who, if present trajectory is maintained, could become the best spinner in the world in a couple of years. For that to happen however at least 3 things need to happen of which only one is in Shakib's control:
1) Our batters need to put up bigger first innings totals in Tests. I mean more 450-500 country. When you do that, you can park your spinner on one end and go fishing. Obviously as an all-rounder Shak can do his part here
2) We need tighter if not more penetrative bowling. This point has been already raised a few times on this thread so no further elaboration needed.
3) We need bouncier home pitches. While Shakib has developed effective tactics for our slow, low turners, these tactics tend to make him more of an attritional bowler than an overtly attacking one. I don't know how we solve this one. Apparently we cannot find any decent clay in the whole danged country.

al Furqaan
September 28, 2010, 09:02 PM
Rather, IMHO, Shakib's two best attributes are his increasing mastery of variations of pace and the clever use of angle of delivery (round-arm vs. straight arm) to get variation in dip/drift. Add to that one of the better Arm-deliveries in the business and a tough-SOB mindset and you have the makings of someone who, if present trajectory is maintained, could become the best spinner in the world in a couple of years.

yes, this is what i wrote in a thread i started back in July 2009 when sakib first started blowing up.

http://www.banglacricket.com/alochona/showpost.php?p=897268&postcount=1


sakib has a very round arm action, kind of like a spinner's malinga...and so he probably gets a good amount of drift, and then his stock ball turns the opposite way. could be a reason he's been so successful lately.

al Furqaan
September 28, 2010, 09:26 PM
let see how shakib has done since he's become a "bowler" as opposed to a "part timer":

since a Test team will rarely have any more than 5 bowlers in an attack (usually at least one of those will be an all-rounder), lets look at matches where shakib bowls at least 1/5th or 20% of the total overs.

the first time shakib ever bowled 20% or more of the total overs, he bowled a whopping 34.9% of the total overs in the match.

since that 7-36 against NZ, and including it, shakib has taken 72 wickets @ 29.11 with a strike rate of 61.5.

he has also taken a 5er against every team he's played in his career.

shakibrulz
November 25, 2010, 11:49 PM
The battle is on. Swanneh gets his first wicket, Marcus 'bunny' North.

Tiger444
November 27, 2010, 01:18 AM
Hmmm seems like Swann is choking so far this test. Pretty poor bowling against the Aussies.

Bond
November 27, 2010, 01:26 AM
Swann is a better bowler

shakibrulz
November 27, 2010, 01:27 AM
Swann is a better bowler

I think Ash is better than Swann.
<br />Posted via BC Mobile Edition

Ashfaq
November 27, 2010, 01:41 AM
^^Hmm,. I'm not sure. Swann does have a marginallly better average. But, considering everything, Ash and Swann are probably neck and neck as Batsmen.

Bond
November 27, 2010, 01:44 AM
^^Hmm,. I'm not sure. Swann does have a marginallly better average. But, considering everything, Ash and Swann are probably neck and neck as Batsmen.

:mad:

Tiger444
November 27, 2010, 02:11 AM
I gotta say shakibrulz, that was a brave call. Calling Swann overrated when he was doing very well. Let's see if he continues to choke or he bounces back.

Night_wolf
November 27, 2010, 02:58 AM
looks like mr.swann in not having fun in the ashes..128/2 in 43 overs

shakibrulz
November 27, 2010, 05:32 AM
I gotta say shakibrulz, that was a brave call. Calling Swann overrated when he was doing very well. Let's see if he continues to choke or he bounces back.
People are really blindfolded by his out of the world stats. Shakib since he started as a bowling allrounder has quite an impressive record. And Swann's stats are inflated by his figures against Pakis & BD itself.

Haru-party
November 27, 2010, 11:45 AM
3 hrs. try korlam mathat theke constructive kisu bair hoilona:hairpull:

Haru-party
November 28, 2010, 11:08 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EIwhljK2PA
swann has got some good sense of humour.......dont expect something like this from any bangladeshi player even not from shakib ( matitey pa pore na)
p.s the best part is from 6:50

shakibrulz
November 28, 2010, 11:29 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EIwhljK2PA
swann has got some good sense of humour.......dont except something like this from any bangladeshi player even not from shakib ( matitey pa pore na)
p.s the best part is from 6:50
Yeah, saw that before itself :lol: He's a great guy, no doubt.

Iceman doesn't talk, he makes the ball talk. :-p

shakibrulz
December 8, 2010, 08:43 AM
Swanns stats getting more and more inflated against aussies on turning tracks.. When on earth are BD playing Oz? Can't wait to see Shak in white :(

Night_wolf
December 8, 2010, 11:54 AM
Swanns stats getting more and more inflated against aussies on turning tracks.. When on earth are BD playing Oz? Can't wait to see Shak in white :(

OZs canceled the series of april because of ipl..i dont think its gona happen soon...honestly it would be interesting to see if the ipl alone can go on with this much drama surrounding it..

shakibrulz
December 8, 2010, 12:03 PM
OZs canceled the series of april because of ipl..i dont think its gona happen soon...honestly it would be interesting to see if the ipl alone can go on with this much drama surrounding it..
Doubt if it's due to IPL alone, mayb Aussies aren't interested in a meaningless series, I can understand. If they win, they get nothing and if they lose/draw, they lose a lot of points.

ammark
December 8, 2010, 12:59 PM
Swanns stats getting more and more inflated against aussies on turning tracks.. When on earth are BD playing Oz? Can't wait to see Shak in white :(

Well, to be fair, Swann earned it. Its really not fair that BD are not playing any tests since the past tour of England. This sucks. For us to improve we have to play more tests, I dont care against whom, but we've got to slug it out!

Inept BCB and ICC

roman
December 8, 2010, 01:09 PM
^ And we are not playing tests anytime soon :(

shakibrulz
December 8, 2010, 01:18 PM
Well, to be fair, Swann earned it. Its really not fair that BD are not playing any tests since the past tour of England. This sucks. For us to improve we have to play more tests, I dont care against whom, but we've got to slug it out!

Inept BCB and ICC
LOL, no denying that. And I agree, it sucks. And I doubt if bcb is bothered about that at all :(

Hate this.

simon
March 8, 2011, 05:44 PM
I'm so worried of batsman Sakib vs bowler Swann.

MohammedC
March 8, 2011, 05:55 PM
Swann will win

shakibrulz
January 18, 2012, 05:21 AM
2011 stats:

Swann 8 tests, 27 wickets, average 34.22, s/r 64.2, 1 5 wicket haul vs Ind
Shakib 5 tests, 21 wickets, average 28.61, s/r 61.8, 2 wicket hauls vs Pak and WI.

2011 goes to Shakib. Lets see how 2012 turns out.

BANFAN
January 18, 2012, 07:57 AM
2011 stats:

Swann 8 tests, 27 wickets, average 34.22, s/r 64.2, 1 5 wicket haul vs Ind
Shakib 5 tests, 21 wickets, average 28.61, s/r 61.8, 2 wicket hauls vs Pak and WI.

2011 goes to Shakib. Lets see how 2012 turns out.

:applause: !!

lamisa
January 18, 2012, 09:38 AM
oh wow! swann played 3 kore tests and is just 6 wickets ahead of our shak!

Tigers_eye
January 18, 2012, 10:46 AM
In any setting, while comparing, imaginatively replace the two. See if both can muster the same achievement as the other did.

Shakib is miles ahead in that scenario, cause of less pressure in England side. The winning culture gives confidence. Confidence is "Sexy".

Swann would be like Enam Jr. or Musharraf in BD team.

Tiger444
January 18, 2012, 11:14 AM
This shows once again how Shakib is the man and a beast.

RazabQ
January 18, 2012, 12:11 PM
Timely bump!

shakibrulz
January 18, 2012, 12:15 PM
Well I disagree Swann's hypothetical position of being equal to Enamul, I'd say somewhat similar to Sunny though.

Swann is bowling alright, but Shakib has been brilliant last year. Though he would have to bowl in flattest pitches in the world this year, in Pakistan :(

simon
January 18, 2012, 12:38 PM
hey Shakibrulz, could u pls put the stats of Ajmol for 2011 here too? thnks man

shakibrulz
January 18, 2012, 04:35 PM
Way ahead.

8 matches, 50 wickets, average 23.86 s/r 58.4 3 5wkt hauls vs WI twice and SL.
<br />Posted via BC Mobile Edition

simon
January 18, 2012, 04:45 PM
^^thanks, -_- now delete your post -_-

mali007
January 18, 2012, 07:12 PM
Poor Shakib ----- played less tests with a poor fielding side !! Otherwise he would had taken more wickets.

Dhakablues
January 19, 2012, 12:26 AM
Imagine if Shakib had Bangladesh as an opposition....!!

neutral_fan
January 19, 2012, 12:26 AM
swann is on a decline
ajmal is ahead of both swann and shakib atm

shakibrulz
January 19, 2012, 06:31 AM
I like Ajmal but I dont really like watching chuckers. Nice guy though.

Shak played him way better than England.
<br />Posted via BC Mobile Edition

Dilscoop
January 20, 2012, 06:43 PM
I like Ajmal but I dont really like watching chuckers. Nice guy though.

Shak played him way better than England.
<br />Posted via BC Mobile Edition

I saw his "Teesara" or w/e video on Eng v Pak thread, WTH! Is ICC seriously going to allow it? It looks like a girly baseball pitchers throw. It doesn't look good at all.

Navo
January 20, 2012, 07:41 PM
I saw his "Teesara" or w/e video on Eng v Pak thread, WTH! Is ICC seriously going to allow it? It looks like a girly baseball pitchers throw. It doesn't look good at all.

Dilscoop, that wasn't Ajmal actually bowling anything. He was just celebrating getting his 10th wicket. After the match he said that he would bowl the Teesra in the future. He didn't need to reveal his secret weapon against the hapless English batsmen.

oronnya
January 21, 2012, 02:16 AM
I think Swann still has the upper hand . 2011 didn't go Swanni's way but he is still more dangerous bowler than Shakib though I would love to see Shakib ahead of Swann and Ajmal !!!

zsayeed
January 21, 2012, 03:45 PM
http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff430/zsayeed/1415482.jpghttp://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff430/zsayeed/ajma.jpg
http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff430/zsayeed/bowl.jpghttp://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff430/zsayeed/odi.jpg
http://www.relianceiccrankings.com/pr.php and preemptively http://www.espncricinfo.com/pakistan/content/story/405873.html

NoName
February 3, 2012, 03:45 PM
If the ICC cleared Ajmal's action, I guess its a legal delivery and no point in complaining its a 'chuck'.

godzilla
February 3, 2012, 09:07 PM
If the ICC cleared Ajmal's action, I guess its a legal delivery and no point in complaining its a 'chuck'.

Yea I was seeing the video when they where discussion about this and he was cleared by 2 degree so wtv the haters say is invalid.

simon
February 4, 2012, 10:11 AM
ya,A┬žJmal's action is cleared by ICC, but nevertheless his bowling action will always remain...u know what? :rolleyes:

now to the topic:
Swann is pretty inconsistent, Sakib is not.
Sakib is way better than Swann.
despite the fact that Swann is very well supported by J.Anderson & Broad, he still looks not so effective.
and we all know how well Sakib is supported by Shahadat,A.Rzzq, Shafiul & Mushy. -___-

tiger_bright
February 5, 2012, 05:22 PM
Shakib is much better. He is having many years more to improve. Swan is lacking variations and only looks wicket taker against left hander.

Banglaguy
February 5, 2012, 05:52 PM
Shakib is much better. He is having many years more to improve. Swan is lacking variations and only looks wicket taker against right hander.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/YaGWOvWMDDc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Obviously not :P

tiger_bright
February 5, 2012, 10:56 PM
sorry, i meant left handers.