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Roni_uk
March 23, 2011, 12:26 PM
I was born post ’71 independence but the way I was brought up thanks to my parents, my education, my country such that every time 71 is mentioned to me, I feel like I was there in the middle of 9 months long war as a soldier, as a victim, someone who went through multiple rapes by Pak military men and then got dump into a gutter, someone who was unclothed to show my circumcision or faced the bullet.

I now live in a country where multi-culturism is encouraged as a result I get to mingle with a lot of Pakistanis. The horror stories of 1971 made me…erm .... not sure what the politically correct term is .. but ‘racist’? I do not hate the Pakistani people but my country’s dark history written by the Pak rulers, refrain me from buying Pakistani made products, food, cloths, even music.

I missed the match today; I was just following it online. After reading some of the posts in the match thread, I feel like I am glad that I didn’t. The people of the same nation who now fights for the war criminals execution celebrate Pakistani match victory in a style that I had to feel ashamed for. .. waving Pak flags, wearing Pak tops, face painting in Pak flag colours – really? Has our generation become so oblivious towards our independence, towards our language day? 100s of 1000s of Bangladeshis had to give their lives during 1952, 1971 so that our people and the generations to come can speak the mother tongue and not someone else's tongue and can live in an independent country not governed by people living in 1400 miles away. Is this how we show respect to them?

I’ve heard Pak cricketers didn’t even thank us for showing such Pak-love, probably because its also beyond them to understand the reason for it. Some Pakistanis still call up “East Pakistanis” – check out youtube video of Bangladesh v England match, uploaded by the Pakistanis.

Some people are arguing about the fact that cricket has nothing to do with politics. It sure doesn’t but it doesn’t also mean that we will throw away our self respect and insult our Independence month – it is because of which we own our sovereignty and we speak our own language - Bangla and not urdu. To me, it should be respected everywhere, not just in a cricket event…

Sorry I was going to post it in the match thread but it really isn’t a post for the match thread!

Yet another poor performance by the Bangladeshis but congrats to Pakistan for winning the match today.

Finally – Happy Independence day, although I am 3 days early.

Zeeshan
March 23, 2011, 12:54 PM
I understand where you coming from and I respect you views. But to me it's as twisted as saying one should not support South Africa because of their apartheid past. Having stayed there for 3 years and being on the receiving end of some blithely racist comments, it also saddens me to see how some members go gaga over their players. If one knew how a white person would tie a black man to the tractor's wheel and drive it, then I am sure he or she would think twice before supporting them. But I stay firm to my convicting that sports in no ways should be intertwined with religion, politics or history and enjoyed for it's own merit.

If we were to go by your own logic, one cannot support ANY country. Indians killed Felani in the border, Pakistani had 71 atrocity, South Africa has racist past, Australia has their share of One World theory, Sri Lanka has their LTTE problem....and so on.

If one were to go fishing for this type of discrepancy, it can be found. I am a proud Bangladeshi-American, and all of a sudden I am not going to turn my back because of the slavery issues.

Please let us move on and enjoy sports for sports sake.

al Furqaan
March 23, 2011, 01:18 PM
we all have our biases. its impossible to get rid of. furthermore, some biases can be ground in actual "facts on the ground", for example all of my biases have some logical reasoning :p

whether politics can be mixed or not is a question with a paradoxical answer. on the one hand you have most muslim countries which boycott Israel - which is why Israel is considered a "european" country in terms of sports - and i'm no longer going to say that that is wrong. on the other hand, the opportunity to embarass your opponent on a sporting stage could also be considered "positive".

so there are no clear and easy answers.

personally, i have no tolerance for arrogant pakistanis (or arrogant people of any ilk really) who have a condescending view of others be they bengali, baluchi, pashtun, or otherwise.

AsifTheManRahman
March 23, 2011, 01:40 PM
It will take a few generations to get over this; more so in a nation where people are intolerant of even the smallest things, which '71 by all means isn't. I too have my biases and can't get myself to support Pakistan in any sport, and '71 does have a huge significance for me (as it should). But that doesn't mean I hate everything Pakistani or that I don't have any Pakistani friends or that I discriminate against them in any way. I still love their achar and their women. Ok, maybe not the women - Eastern European and East Asian chicas FTW!

But it will take a few generations (after people like me) to be able to forgive. Heck my kids might be mixed race for all I know (no, not half Pakistani - Eastern European and East Asian chicas FTW!). Then again, one might argue that you have to ask to be forgiven, which Pakistan hasn't.

Zeeshan
March 23, 2011, 02:02 PM
Another point I'd like to mention is one should not be forced to go back to his or her roots and consume large dosage of books or research materials on Independence diet. Because from my own experience and having talked to many classmates I have noticed that some EXCELLENT materials in classics were overlooked because they were FORCED to read it in school.

Amy Tan what-cha-ma-call-it book? HATED it
George Orwell's Animal Farm? HATED it
All Quiet on Western Frontier? HATED it
And so on..

Point being when one is forced to read books on class assignments with limited time frame and based on piece-meal chapter by chapter section, one gets so bored, tired and frustrated and easily loses the plot- so to speak.

I've been handed down English book on my country's history and guess what? I haven't even touched it.

Rather out of own volition, if a person becomes compelled to find his source, root and history to see where she comes from and then go and discover for herself the atrocities then it will have HUGE positive impacts. Then she will on her own volition will realize the importance of past history.

But such is our Bangladeshi culture everything from religion, choice of major, marriage....everything is force fed which results in hite biporit attitude. Once I read in a Humayun Ahmed's fiction how a Pakistani would drive hammer into victim's hand which had huge impression on me. The image connotes a lot of meaning. But if you point a gun to your fellow compatriot and look down upon him for not knowing the history or worst SHOULD BE ashamed of it, then it will have zero impact.

Past cannot be changed but can serve as many important lessons...but only if he or she makes a conscious effort to learn from it instead of a regimental and authoritative papal decree.

Zeeshan
March 23, 2011, 02:34 PM
By the I also don't see why fans go on waving Pakistani or Indian flags. Hell would freeze over before those two teams support us, yet...

So in my book, that is the reason why I think is "wrong".

Puck
March 23, 2011, 06:08 PM
I was born post ’71 independence but the way I was brought up thanks to my parents, my education, my country such that every time 71 is mentioned to me, I feel like I was there in the middle of 9 months long war as a soldier, as a victim, someone who went through multiple rapes by Pak military men and then got dump into a gutter, someone who was unclothed to show my circumcision or faced the bullet.

I now live in a country where multi-culturism is encouraged as a result I get to mingle with a lot of Pakistanis. The horror stories of 1971 made me…erm .... not sure what the politically correct term is .. but ‘racist’? I do not hate the Pakistani people but my country’s dark history written by the Pak rulers, refrain me from buying Pakistani made products, food, cloths, even music.

I missed the match today; I was just following it online. After reading some of the posts in the match thread, I feel like I am glad that I didn’t. The people of the same nation who now fights for the war criminals execution celebrate Pakistani match victory in a style that I had to feel ashamed for. .. waving Pak flags, wearing Pak tops, face painting in Pak flag colours – really? Has our generation become so oblivious towards our independence, towards our language day? 100s of 1000s of Bangladeshis had to give their lives during 1952, 1971 so that our people and the generations to come can speak the mother tongue and not someone else's tongue and can live in an independent country not governed by people living in 1400 miles away. Is this how we show respect to them?

I’ve heard Pak cricketers didn’t even thank us for showing such Pak-love, probably because its also beyond them to understand the reason for it. Some Pakistanis still call up “East Pakistanis” – check out youtube video of Bangladesh v England match, uploaded by the Pakistanis.



Your experience is similar to mine except that I was born in Dhaka. I was born a good four years after independence and spend the next 12 and half years of my life being reminded of Bengali nationalism through each Independence day, Bijoy Dibosh and Ekushe February. I accepted the facts for what they were and was proud to be associated with the celebrations. My parents were actively involved in helping the Muktibahini through secret fund raising, transmission of information and taking a few injured parties to doctors in my father old Volkwagon Beetle. My maternal uncle had been involved in the fighting, caught and tortured by the Pakistani army. He was nearly left for dead by the torturers.

There is another side to humanity that I like to mention in the same vein when talking about my families activities during 1971. A very close friend of my paternal uncle was a Captain in the Pakistani army and worked part of the intelligence department. He had been a masters student of Geography at Jahangirnagar university prior to joining the army. Throughout the war he kept close contact with my family and warned my grandparents twice when raids were about to take place at their Mohammadpur residence. It was through his help that my maternal uncle was found and resuscitated. At the end of war he was fleeing from Muktibahini. My family offered him shelter. My father and his cousins drove him to India at great risk to their own lives. From what I have heard, this fair Pathan had been dressed up as a Hindu Brahmin from Kashmir.

I have spent the last 23 years of my life in the same country as you. From secondary school onwards I was educated in Britain. Due to family and personal circumstances I had the fortune or one might call misfortune to attend local comprehensive schools, one of the best grammar schools in the country and then an assisted student at top public school. These were before university days. The working class Pakistani kids who went to the comprehensive school with me were ardently racist. 'Bengali' referred to a lower class of being to them. I was close friends with a British-Pakistani but we were friends through our common interest in cricket rather than considering each other as members of any specific ethnic minority. Middle class Pakistani friends I had later during my school years knew very little about the politics of 1971. They were living through their Buddha of Suburbia (Hanif Kureshi) days. At university I didn't mingle with any non-white students. This was simply because the ones who were there were studying law, pharmacology or medicine and had little interest in any of the social activities that I surrounded myself with. What is of interest is that the 'Muslim' women at university in those days were all middle class and none would ever be seen with headscarves. The Malaysian and Indonesian female foreign students always covered their head. One could say that Islam had not permeated visually through the veneer of a suburban old university that was largely populated by Oxbridge rejects.

Through one of my part time work I had made good friends with a British-Syleti. His father owned restaurants. He seemed to breed detestation of all things Pakistani nice boy that he was. He was full of jokes and one must admit that a few of these were extremely funny. Recently, I had a flatmate whose parents came from Bangladesh in sometime in the 1970s. His father was a taxi driver. He had the misfortune of being one of the very few 'coloured' kids in Devon and was severely abused by white kids and British-Pakistani kids. He is a very proud Muslim and Bangladehi despite having a white Irish girlfriend and a penchant for Stella Artois lager. Sadly, he could not hold his alcohol down. We shared the same flat for just over a month but he never realised that I was born in the same country as his parents! He still rings me every time he is in trouble. I won't bore you with the details of these troubles but most involve women and sexual issues.

I abhor jingoism. I have not waived any flags since the age of 12 and don't see myself doing so in the future. The appreciation for culture does not transcend into brute patriotism in me. I do see political boundaries that separate the states and cultures as just that, a tool of the politician. My mother's family are direct descendent of the legendary Tipu Sultan of Mysore. One part of my paternal family came to India in the 16th century as Sufi saints and later settled in Faridpur. This branch was instrumental in the early 19th century Faraizi movement. As far as I am aware part of my family fought the Maratha as part of a declining Mughal army, my father's great great grand father the the East India company's protocol officer in 1857 when Bahadur Shah Zafar was being escorted to Rangoon. He had been chosen for his dexterity in Persian and English and was given a gold coin by the last emperor, and also made Khan Bahadur by the British. But these are events in history. For all intent and purposes it would appear that my father's great great grandfather was a traitor in taking employment with the East India company? Perhaps this complex family tree makes me look at recent history with a slight detachment. At the expense of angering many here, I think we spend a little too much time in our consciousness thinking about the past. Atrocities are part of war. In war there are no winners. I am sure than my tortured Boromama could never be as philosophical as I. I dare say that I would be any different had I been him.

Lastly, if someone decided to wear a jersey of the team they support, why can't be accept them for who they are, a supporter of that team? Rajakar they might be, however, who are we to judge? Is Bangladesh going to be reunited with Pakistan any time soon? I love test cricket. I fell in love with cricket having watched a video of David Gower scoring a double century. I had passionately supported England since early 1988. I have little interest in limited overs cricket and when England plays Bangladesh I feel my loyalties to be tested. I would not rejoice whichever side won. however, in test matches, I don't like to see Bangladesh humiliated either.

Roni, you have as much right to support who you please. However, others, even those Bangladeshis who might choose to support Pakistan or India have exactly the same right. Our history is very complicated. Our politics is complex. Why bring it into a cricket ground? We are only stooping to the level of those sick working class Paki kids who abused you at school?

Abirz
March 24, 2011, 01:25 AM
I just hope I don't have to see such threads here anymore, come on mates, 1 world , 1 love
<br />Posted via BC Mobile Edition (iPhone)

Zunaid
March 24, 2011, 03:24 AM
We will see more and more such threads until the past has been put to pasture. The wounds are too raw.
<br />Posted via BC Mobile Edition

parvez
March 24, 2011, 05:06 AM
I missed the match today; I was just following it online. After reading some of the posts in the match thread, I feel like I am glad that I didn’t. The people of the same nation who now fights for the war criminals execution celebrate Pakistani match victory in a style that I had to feel ashamed for. .. waving Pak flags, wearing Pak tops, face painting in Pak flag colours – really? Has our generation become so oblivious towards our independence, towards our language day? 100s of 1000s of Bangladeshis had to give their lives during 1952, 1971 so that our people and the generations to come can speak the mother tongue and not someone else's tongue and can live in an independent country not governed by people living in 1400 miles away. Is this how we show respect to them?

Support pakistan cricket team and waving pakistani flag is totally different thing. For get our own flag we fought long and more than 3M people hav given their life. They didnt sacrificed their life to see waving pakistani flag in our motherland. Shame on us:facepalm:
The people who are comparing Felani incident with 71 make no sense to me. Felani didnt give her life for our independence. And personally I dont even support waving indian flag too. Waving neighbor country's feel me unsafe.
Brazi-Argentina flag is different issue. They hav no political connection with us. Thats pure sports. When there are lot of political issues between countries, their sports are not only sports.
BTW at the 71 there are lot of cowards(young people) without any proper family or personal issues went to india as refugees. Either they scared to fight or many of them has pak in their heart. So their kids who are now grew up dont know how to respect our independence might be a case about our PAK flag issue.

Naimul_Hd
March 24, 2011, 01:36 PM
Bangladeshi der bijoy ekhono ashe nai bhai...juddho aro baki ase...tai to kothae ase, Shadhinota pawar cheye ta rokkha kora onek kothin !! khub beshi din ar baki nai jei din amader manush ra nijeder ke "East Pakistani" hishabe porichoy dite proud feel korbe ! Deshe aishe bhaloi alamot dekhtechi !

roman
March 24, 2011, 02:02 PM
Bangladeshi der bijoy ekhono ashe nai bhai...juddho aro baki ase...tai to kothae ase, Shadhinota pawar cheye ta rokkha kora onek kothin !! khub beshi din ar baki nai jei din amader manush ra nijeder ke "East Pakistani" hishabe porichoy dite proud feel korbe ! Deshe aishe bhaloi alamot dekhtechi !

Ki alamot dekhlen vai? ektu share koren amader shathe please...

_Rafi_
March 24, 2011, 02:22 PM
Bangladeshi der bijoy ekhono ashe nai bhai...juddho aro baki ase...tai to kothae ase, Shadhinota pawar cheye ta rokkha kora onek kothin !! khub beshi din ar baki nai jei din amader manush ra nijeder ke "East Pakistani" hishabe porichoy dite proud feel korbe ! Deshe aishe bhaloi alamot dekhtechi !

buira der moto bollen. Somaje slightest osongoti hole Keyamot er alamot dekha suru koren unara.

Ajfar
March 24, 2011, 02:35 PM
Ki alamot dekhlen vai? ektu share koren amader shathe please...

I would like to know too. I haven't been to BD in almost 10 years, but I try my best to stay in touch with most of my friends and family back home. The impression I get from my friends and family it's completely opposite from Naimul bhai's. So I would like to know about his experience.

Nadim
March 24, 2011, 03:32 PM
Pakistan should apologise to Bangladesh for atrocities: Imran Khan

Cricketer-turned-politician Imran Khan said the Pakistan government should officially apologise to the people of Bangladesh for atrocities allegedly committed by the Pakistan Army in the 1971 war.

Khan said this during a television show on Geo News and Geo Super TV channels yesterday while analysing the cricket match between Pakistan and West Indies played at Mirpur in Bangladesh.

The host of the show asked Khan about the expected behaviour of the Bangladeshi crowd in Mirpur and he said the Bangladeshis would support the Pakistani cricket team.

The host then asked Khan whether the time had come for the Pakistan government to apologise to the people of Bangladesh for the army operation of 1971.

Khan said he was previously of the opinion that the army operation was ‘a good thing’ because there was no independent media in Pakistan in 1971.

Khan said when he went to Britain in 1971, his Bengali friends told him about the ‘reality’ of the Pakistan Army operation in erstwhile East Pakistan.

He said army operations always created hatred and ‘we must apologise to the Bangladeshis’.He added: ‘We must learn lessons from our past mistakes

and we should not repeat these mistakes in Balochistan and the tribal areas where we have started army operations on US pressure.’

Khan said he had experienced the love and affection of Bangladeshis during an exhibition match in Mirpur in 1989.



Source: http://newagebd.com/newspaper1/frontpage/12888.html

Fazal
March 24, 2011, 10:15 PM
Bangladesh Genocide Video Archive:

http://www.genocidebangladesh.org/?page_id=2

akabir77
March 24, 2011, 11:05 PM
Most of the flag waving and chanting in Urdu fans in the stadium were not bangladeshis. I see lot of people without watching the game is jumping the gun. Most people came from Pakistan or Dubai or living in bd. If u see the video u can easily identify most of them. .
<br />Posted via BC Mobile Edition (iPhone)

Night_wolf
March 25, 2011, 02:01 AM
look in the net about the night of 25th march in 1971

all hell with all the logics and reasons..i'll never ever support Pakistan

be a sport a team or anything

Roni_uk
March 25, 2011, 06:17 PM
Your experience is similar to mine except that I was born in Dhaka. I was born a good four years after independence and spend the next 12 and half years of my life being reminded of Bengali nationalism through each Independence day, Bijoy Dibosh and Ekushe February. ........


nice read Puck bro.. thanks for sharing.

I stand by my view point re: respecting our independence.

HereWeGo
March 25, 2011, 11:55 PM
While hatred is not warranted, unconditional love is also very disrespectful to the martyrs, atleast till Pakistan offers apology. Just my 2 cents...

Purbasha T
March 26, 2011, 04:15 PM
I see almost everyone agrees that supporting Pakistan in a cricket match is NOT an issue, the issue is to what level a Bangladeshi should go in their support.

Rubu
March 26, 2011, 08:26 PM
There is no way to get over it until formal acknowledgement and apology

paindu
March 27, 2011, 12:28 AM
It is something that confuses me as well. It is recorded as 4 th largest genocide ever in human history. And yet I see this support for Pakistan and not just in cricket may I add.

paindu
March 27, 2011, 11:38 AM
So, do you guys think that Indians should have intervened in this matter. Indians believe that they prevented a larger genocide while Pakistanis believe we broke their country while Bangladeshis are not very affable towards India for some reason. Seems like a lose lose for India.

AsifTheManRahman
March 28, 2011, 12:16 AM
Dhaka bids farewell to the World Cup (Rajakar alert):
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Antora
March 28, 2011, 06:33 AM
hmmm, interesting views from everyone.
Well I guess like a lot of you, I wasn't there at the time of the war, however through my parents and grandparents, I know what happened and the importance of my Bengali identity.
Living abroad at the age of 4 I learnt "অ,আ" before "A,B,C". Once i became older and learned the history of our language movement, I understand why they ( my parents) emphasised on Bangla more than English. My parents always told me, that before a Zambian, South African or Australian, I am a Bangladeshi. I guess both sides of my family were very much affected by the war and their strong patriotism has developed in me, and I hope to raise my children the same way. In saying this, hearing so many stories about the way people struggled during '71 the genocide.... really makes me wonder how a Bangladeshi can support pakistan so strongly. I know a lot of Bangladeshis who even support Pakistan over Bangladesh. That really depresses me and makes me wonder if after my parents generation, the history of '71 will remain strong in Bangladesh, or will it just be a day where my children's generation will say '" oh it was just a day we got independance from Pakistan" and not actually know the true meaning behind this independance. Ammu was telling me how she watched on the news the other day and these people in BD were like '" BD out hoeycho toh ki, Pakistan toh achey". It shocked me. like really? I mean it's probably only my family and we're probably the only few who takes in a negative perspective :S? I don't know. But I can never support Pakistan. Their new generation don't even know about '71 apparently :S, so I don't really have anything against them. However it's only been 40 years, and already rajakars are ministers in Bangladesh and we are cheering on Pakistan? I fail to see how that works. Even a sorry from Pakistan is really not going to do too much, but the aknowledgement of the fact that they did something wrong- will be enough for me to die a happy Bangladeshi. Btw I am not saying that any B'deshi you supports pakistan are "razakras" I am not saying that at all :| I am just saying that after knowing what happened I can not support pakistan ( just saying so people don't take me the wrong way :()

Naimul_Hd
March 28, 2011, 10:22 AM
hmmm, interesting views from everyone.
Well I guess like a lot of you, I wasn't there at the time of the war, however through my parents and grandparents, I know what happened and the importance of my Bengali identity.
Living abroad at the age of 4 I learnt "অ,আ" before "A,B,C". Once i became older and learned the history of our language movement, I understand why they ( my parents) emphasised on Bangla more than English. My parents always told me, that before a Zambian, South African or Australian, I am a Bangladeshi. I guess both sides of my family were very much affected by the war and their strong patriotism has developed in me, and I hope to raise my children the same way. In saying this, hearing so many stories about the way people struggled during '71 the genocide.... really makes me wonder how a Bangladeshi can support pakistan so strongly. I know a lot of Bangladeshis who even support Pakistan over Bangladesh. That really depresses me and makes me wonder if after my parents generation, the history of '71 will remain strong in Bangladesh, or will it just be a day where my children's generation will say '" oh it was just a day we got independance from Pakistan" and not actually know the true meaning behind this independance. Ammu was telling me how she watched on the news the other day and these people in BD were like '" BD out hoeycho toh ki, Pakistan toh achey". It shocked me. like really? I mean it's probably only my family and we're probably the only few who takes in a negative perspective :S? I don't know. But I can never support Pakistan. Their new generation don't even know about '71 apparently :S, so I don't really have anything against them. However it's only been 40 years, and already rajakars are ministers in Bangladesh and we are cheering on Pakistan? I fail to see how that works. Even a sorry from Pakistan is really not going to do too much, but the aknowledgement of the fact that they did something wrong- will be enough for me to die a happy Bangladeshi. Btw I am not saying that any B'deshi you supports pakistan are "razakras" I am not saying that at all :| I am just saying that after knowing what happened I can not support pakistan ( just saying so people don't take me the wrong way :()

you should be proud of yourself and your family. I find no reason why any member here would take it wrong way. :flag:

Sohel
March 28, 2011, 10:35 AM
I'm with you Antora.

Night_wolf
March 28, 2011, 11:12 AM
^me too

F6_Turbo
March 28, 2011, 11:23 AM
Ahh a thread after my own heart...I made a post similar to what antora and the OP made(albeit in the wrong thread/forum) :lol:

My family was brutalized in the war in a very personal way, and I know some say

"we shall never forget, but we will forgive"

I disagree.

I shall neither forget, nor shall I forgive, until there is a proper recognition of what was done to us.

Talk to the average Pakistani living amongst you, in the US, Can, UK, Aus, NZ, etc etc, and raise the topic...see how much they know about it.

Germans know about their history, Cambodians know about their history, South Africans know about their history...Pakistanis in general are like the Japanese, they refuse to acknowledge what they did.

When I am asked to feel for my muslim brothers in Palestine, I ask the muslim world, who felt for us, when a muslim brother, not 'the evil Jews or Crusader' was killing, raping, burning, savaging an entire people?

Atels on forums, and in living rooms in Banani, Gulshan, Dhanmondi feign rage at our politicians for selling us out...I say [edit] that, we sold ourselves out, and we continue to do so on a daily basis, to see a day when so close to the 25th of March people in this country would be waving Pakistani flags and cheering them on as if it were Bangladesh.

Shame doesn't come close to describing what I felt.

Ajfar
March 28, 2011, 12:00 PM
That guy talking utter rubbish around 4-5 min needs to get a kick in the butt.

Sohel
March 28, 2011, 01:18 PM
Ahh a thread after my own heart...I made a post similar to what antora and the OP made(albeit in the wrong thread/forum) :lol:

My family was brutalized in the war in a very personal way, and I know some say

"we shall never forget, but we will forgive"

I disagree.

I shall neither forget, nor shall I forgive, until there is a proper recognition of what was done to us.

Talk to the average Pakistani living amongst you, in the US, Can, UK, Aus, NZ, etc etc, and raise the topic...see how much they know about it.

Germans know about their history, Cambodians know about their history, South Africans know about their history...Pakistanis in general are like the Japanese, they refuse to acknowledge what they did.

When I am asked to feel for my muslim brothers in Palestine, I ask the muslim world, who felt for us, when a muslim brother, not 'the evil Jews or Crusader' was killing, raping, burning, savaging an entire people?

Atels on forums, and in living rooms in Banani, Gulshan, Dhanmondi feign rage at our politicians for selling us out...I say [edit] that, we sold ourselves out, and we continue to do so on a daily basis, to see a day when so close to the 25th of March people in this country would be waving Pakistani flags and cheering them on as if it were Bangladesh.

Shame doesn't come close to describing what I felt.

It isn't about the cricket but flying the flag of GENOCIDE, MASS RAPE, MASS TORTURE AND BRIGANDAGE (http://www.genocidebangladesh.org/) just 2 days before it all began. The best we can do is inform the misguided as to what really happened and let their sense of morality and decency work out the rest.

How can we "forgive and forget" when no official acknowledgment, apology or reparation offer was made for those crimes against humanity and the Bangladeshi people? Those who think it isn't a big deal, especially the ironically and outwardly "religious" ones, ought to have their hearts examined for their own good.

In fact, Pakistan has gone out of its way misguiding the world about the truth, and deliberately failed to fulfill its obligation under the Simla Agreement by refusing to try the alleged war criminals in its custody.

All decent Pakistani individuals need to inform themselves of the brutal legacy of their government's crimes in 1971 and before that, and then actively spread the truth. Hopefully such knowledge and public pressure will eventually lead to the acknowledgment, apology and reparations necessary to begin the long overdue expiation . Pakistan also needs to actively assist the Bangladeshi government in the International Crimes Tribunal underway here, rather than trying to subvert the process, while holding its own trials in its territory.

Until and unless that happens, BangPaki or not, flying that flag in our country is an insult.

That being said, people fought and died for anti-totalitarian values where people have the right to be "wrong" so to speak. It is not a matter of imposition or coercion, but of debate, persuasion, and being able to agree to disagree, no matter how egregiously insensitive and disagreeable something may be. That's what makes us better than them both politically and spiritually, and that's how we truly honor the martyrs who brought us here.

AsifTheManRahman
March 28, 2011, 02:45 PM
What ticked me off in that video is the idea of supporting Pakistan because "we were a part of them". That goes totally against the whole purpose of the war and is extremely disrespectful. Actually, saying that it's disrespectful is putting it mildly.

I can understand people from newer generations not feeling as strongly about '71 (whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is a different question), but to say that we support them because we were a part of them and that too on Independence Day is just a hundred *bleeps*.

Alchemist
March 29, 2011, 11:27 PM
What ticked me off in that video is the idea of supporting Pakistan because "we were a part of them". That goes totally against the whole purpose of the war and is extremely disrespectful. Actually, saying that it's disrespectful is putting it mildly.

I can understand people from newer generations not feeling as strongly about '71 (whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is a different question), but to say that we support them because we were a part of them and that too on Independence Day is just a hundred *bleeps*.

In 1971, we had a good number of Razakars who supported Pak Army doing their ethnic cleansing.

In 2011, we still have a good amount of Razakars who're cheering for Pakistan. IMO, they should be transported to their beloved paki land immediately.

However, the number patriotic Bangladeshis outnumbered the Razakars massively. I believe this is still the case. Although we've to admit, a large number of our new generation is confused about our history (thanks to out spineless leaders rulling the country since independence).

Ace of BD
March 30, 2011, 05:59 PM
Pathetic stuff from some of our peoeplw...These should be sent to exile, and shouldnt even get to take a sip of water from our bay of bengal....cut the crap....and in general, have u seen their attitude against bangladeshis, calling us still as east pakistanis..who the hell they think they are......beaten them, and the people themselves are getting punishment...no need to go any further than whats happening in their country right now.....what can u expect from a nation whose folowers are not discontent with them from match fixing and still labelling them as heroes. atleast Germans resisted Hitler in end..these guys wouldnt even do that...sad really....if they continue this way.....they couldnt even exist....but as a Muslim, I have always been taught by the Quran to pray for the misguided, but even then, Allah tells, after a certain limit, their eyes are blind and their hearts are sealed....and thats what has happened with them.....just wait and watch...a point will come when they wont be even able to stand on feet with us..

Ace of BD
March 30, 2011, 06:03 PM
In 1971, we had a good number of Razakars who supported Pak Army doing their ethnic cleansing.

In 2011, we still have a good amount of Razakars who're cheering for Pakistan. IMO, they should be transported to their beloved paki land immediately.

However, the number patriotic Bangladeshis outnumbered the Razakars massively. I believe this is still the case. Although we've to admit, a large number of our new generation is confused about our history (thanks to out spineless leaders rulling the country since independence).

nope bro..atleast not me, although i havent spent my years growing in Bangladesh..i dont know if i am allowed to say in these forums, but i still feel like 'torturing to death' with the same merciless venom on how those particular pakis from the army carried out their genocide on bangladesh...i stil have the same fire burning inside me.....only if those who are alive who did this came infront of me.! Bunch of eternal burners to be burnt in the black fires of HELL!

firstlane
March 31, 2011, 08:26 AM
I came across a part of that video in Facebook and came to the forum to say something about it, then found this thread. This is what I posted on my fb wall after watching our fans going crazy for pk-


"Bissas korte koshto hosse Banglee ra evabe pakistan pakistan kore chitkar korse, aar wasim akram e niye gorbo korse. Je jaigai dariye ora pakistan pakistan bole chechasse taar nechei hoito shuye aase kono Shohid. Taderke aamra ki jobab debo jodi Tara proshno kore ei jonnoi ki aami jibon diyesi? Shohid der ki amra eta bolbo- "Tomader ke to ei pakistani ra maareni, merese onno pakistanira, aar marlei ba ki- ora to musolmaan aamader bhai, oder support korte dosh ki". Khub shohoje hoito aamra aaj e kotha bolte pari, bolte partam na jodi amar baba oder haate khun hoto, amar maa oder dara dhorshito hoto. Tokhon hoito amader ei udarota aar thakto na.

amra shobsomoi boli khelar majhe ploitics keno tene aano. pakistani cricketer ra to aar amader maareni. amar kotha holo jara amader against e eto boro human rights violate korlo tara keno ei consideration ta pabe? Prithibir aar kono jaati erokom kina aami janina. Tobe aami bissas kori ekjon Palestine er manush kokhono evabe Israel ke valo bashbe na, ekjon Vietnamese kokhono evabe America ke support korbe na. Je jaati'r maanush gulo eto boro protarok, eto nirlojjo se jaati kokhno tai prithibi'r buke matha uchu kore darate parbe na etai shavabik."

^বাংলায় লিখা অনেক কষ্ট তাই বাংলিশ লিখলাম ।

I know many Bangladeshi people in Australia who are now Australian citizens and have lived here for many years. They support Australia in all sports except cricket because they started supporting pakistani cricket team when they were kids and can't change it now. I supported Pakistan as well when I was a kid 'cause I saw everyone at home used to support them. I remember my uncles saying 'we support them because they are muslims'. But once I started to learn about '71 I only supported teams playing against pakistan. I made myself read a lot of books about '71 and now when I hear the name pakistan I can only visualize(in black & white) the dead bodies lying around on the streets, the raped women walking around the streets with messy hair and the Freedom Fighters being tortured in the concentration camps. I keep saying to myself- "3 million! almost the size of the population of Singapore".

Puck
March 31, 2011, 11:16 AM
Asif Rahman, thanks for the video link. Zara is very beautiful. Her husband needs to try a little less in imitating western accents. Comedy is all in the timing and since the material is so tame, his delivery needs to be precise.

Mr-khan
March 31, 2011, 11:48 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10rsTodevOo

Not sure somebody that posted it before.This video to dedicated to all the Bangladeshi who are die hard paki suppoerter.

One World
March 31, 2011, 12:46 PM
You cannot change a rajakar mind no matter how hard you try (from personal exp). Like you cannot make a BAL supporter to admit a mistake.

Ajfar
March 31, 2011, 06:17 PM
Where did words like 'Rajakar' 'Al-Bodor' come from? Any story behind these terms?
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firstlane
March 31, 2011, 06:39 PM
Where did words like 'Rajakar' 'Al-Bodor' come from? Any story behind these terms?
<br />Posted via BC Mobile Edition (iPhone)
From what I heard-
'Rajakar' means patriot in urdu
The term 'Al-bodor' came from the famous 'Bodor War' in which Prophet Mohammed took part I guess.
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Zunaid
March 31, 2011, 06:46 PM
Actually, the word Razakar has Persian origin and means volunteer. The other two anti-independence militias created during the liberation war were:

al-badr - name derived from the Battle of Badr (battle with the Quraish during the early days of Islam), this was jamaat's paramilitary wing
al-shams - these were mostly comprised of madrassah students

firstlane
April 4, 2011, 09:28 AM
Actually, the word Razakar has Persian origin and means volunteer. The other two anti-independence militias created during the liberation war were:

al-badr - name derived from the Battle of Badr (battle with the Quraish during the early days of Islam), this was jamaat's paramilitary wing
al-shams - these were mostly comprised of madrassah students

Thanks for the clarification.

Rifat
April 11, 2011, 10:57 PM
Your experience is similar to mine except that I was born in Dhaka. I was born a good four years after independence and spend the next 12 and half years of my life being reminded of Bengali nationalism through each Independence day, Bijoy Dibosh and Ekushe February. I accepted the facts for what they were and was proud to be associated with the celebrations. My parents were actively involved in helping the Muktibahini through secret fund raising, transmission of information and taking a few injured parties to doctors in my father old Volkwagon Beetle. My maternal uncle had been involved in the fighting, caught and tortured by the Pakistani army. He was nearly left for dead by the torturers.

There is another side to humanity that I like to mention in the same vein when talking about my families activities during 1971. A very close friend of my paternal uncle was a Captain in the Pakistani army and worked part of the intelligence department. He had been a masters student of Geography at Jahangirnagar university prior to joining the army. Throughout the war he kept close contact with my family and warned my grandparents twice when raids were about to take place at their Mohammadpur residence. It was through his help that my maternal uncle was found and resuscitated. At the end of war he was fleeing from Muktibahini. My family offered him shelter. My father and his cousins drove him to India at great risk to their own lives. From what I have heard, this fair Pathan had been dressed up as a Hindu Brahmin from Kashmir.

I have spent the last 23 years of my life in the same country as you. From secondary school onwards I was educated in Britain. Due to family and personal circumstances I had the fortune or one might call misfortune to attend local comprehensive schools, one of the best grammar schools in the country and then an assisted student at top public school. These were before university days. The working class Pakistani kids who went to the comprehensive school with me were ardently racist. 'Bengali' referred to a lower class of being to them. I was close friends with a British-Pakistani but we were friends through our common interest in cricket rather than considering each other as members of any specific ethnic minority. Middle class Pakistani friends I had later during my school years knew very little about the politics of 1971. They were living through their Buddha of Suburbia (Hanif Kureshi) days. At university I didn't mingle with any non-white students. This was simply because the ones who were there were studying law, pharmacology or medicine and had little interest in any of the social activities that I surrounded myself with. What is of interest is that the 'Muslim' women at university in those days were all middle class and none would ever be seen with headscarves. The Malaysian and Indonesian female foreign students always covered their head. One could say that Islam had not permeated visually through the veneer of a suburban old university that was largely populated by Oxbridge rejects.

Through one of my part time work I had made good friends with a British-Syleti. His father owned restaurants. He seemed to breed detestation of all things Pakistani nice boy that he was. He was full of jokes and one must admit that a few of these were extremely funny. Recently, I had a flatmate whose parents came from Bangladesh in sometime in the 1970s. His father was a taxi driver. He had the misfortune of being one of the very few 'coloured' kids in Devon and was severely abused by white kids and British-Pakistani kids. He is a very proud Muslim and Bangladehi despite having a white Irish girlfriend and a penchant for Stella Artois lager. Sadly, he could not hold his alcohol down. We shared the same flat for just over a month but he never realised that I was born in the same country as his parents! He still rings me every time he is in trouble. I won't bore you with the details of these troubles but most involve women and sexual issues.

I abhor jingoism. I have not waived any flags since the age of 12 and don't see myself doing so in the future. The appreciation for culture does not transcend into brute patriotism in me. I do see political boundaries that separate the states and cultures as just that, a tool of the politician. My mother's family are direct descendent of the legendary Tipu Sultan of Mysore. One part of my paternal family came to India in the 16th century as Sufi saints and later settled in Faridpur. This branch was instrumental in the early 19th century Faraizi movement. As far as I am aware part of my family fought the Maratha as part of a declining Mughal army, my father's great great grand father the the East India company's protocol officer in 1857 when Bahadur Shah Zafar was being escorted to Rangoon. He had been chosen for his dexterity in Persian and English and was given a gold coin by the last emperor, and also made Khan Bahadur by the British. But these are events in history. For all intent and purposes it would appear that my father's great great grandfather was a traitor in taking employment with the East India company? Perhaps this complex family tree makes me look at recent history with a slight detachment. At the expense of angering many here, I think we spend a little too much time in our consciousness thinking about the past. Atrocities are part of war. In war there are no winners. I am sure than my tortured Boromama could never be as philosophical as I. I dare say that I would be any different had I been him.

Lastly, if someone decided to wear a jersey of the team they support, why can't be accept them for who they are, a supporter of that team? Rajakar they might be, however, who are we to judge? Is Bangladesh going to be reunited with Pakistan any time soon? I love test cricket. I fell in love with cricket having watched a video of David Gower scoring a double century. I had passionately supported England since early 1988. I have little interest in limited overs cricket and when England plays Bangladesh I feel my loyalties to be tested. I would not rejoice whichever side won. however, in test matches, I don't like to see Bangladesh humiliated either.

Roni, you have as much right to support who you please. However, others, even those Bangladeshis who might choose to support Pakistan or India have exactly the same right. Our history is very complicated. Our politics is complex. Why bring it into a cricket ground? We are only stooping to the level of those sick working class Paki kids who abused you at school?

Puck bhai, Thank you for your wonderful post :) may Allah bless you in this life and the hereafter!

Alchemist
April 12, 2011, 01:18 AM
I abhor jingoism. I have not waived any flags since the age of 12 and don't see myself doing so in the future. The appreciation for culture does not transcend into brute patriotism in me. I do see political boundaries that separate the states and cultures as just that, a tool of the politician. My mother's family are direct descendent of the legendary Tipu Sultan of Mysore. One part of my paternal family came to India in the 16th century as Sufi saints and later settled in Faridpur. This branch was instrumental in the early 19th century Faraizi movement. As far as I am aware part of my family fought the Maratha as part of a declining Mughal army, my father's great great grand father the the East India company's protocol officer in 1857 when Bahadur Shah Zafar was being escorted to Rangoon. He had been chosen for his dexterity in Persian and English and was given a gold coin by the last emperor, and also made Khan Bahadur by the British. But these are events in history. For all intent and purposes it would appear that my father's great great grandfather was a traitor in taking employment with the East India company? Perhaps this complex family tree makes me look at recent history with a slight detachment. At the expense of angering many here, I think we spend a little too much time in our consciousness thinking about the past. Atrocities are part of war. In war there are no winners. I am sure than my tortured Boromama could never be as philosophical as I. I dare say that I would be any different had I been him.

Lastly, if someone decided to wear a jersey of the team they support, why can't be accept them for who they are, a supporter of that team? Rajakar they might be, however, who are we to judge? Is Bangladesh going to be reunited with Pakistan any time soon? I love test cricket. I fell in love with cricket having watched a video of David Gower scoring a double century. I had passionately supported England since early 1988. I have little interest in limited overs cricket and when England plays Bangladesh I feel my loyalties to be tested. I would not rejoice whichever side won. however, in test matches, I don't like to see Bangladesh humiliated either.

Roni, you have as much right to support who you please. However, others, even those Bangladeshis who might choose to support Pakistan or India have exactly the same right. Our history is very complicated. Our politics is complex. Why bring it into a cricket ground? We are only stooping to the level of those sick working class Paki kids who abused you at school?

Puck bhai

With all due respect, I think there are three kinds of people who are against the trial against war criminals:

1. Pakistanis and their present day razakar friends
2. Evil politicians and their brainwashed supporters and
3. People confused with their own identity, like you

Although I enjoyed reading you essay (nicely written), but it made me angry as well. Let me explain:

I understand you’ve got a great family background where some of your ancestors fought against the English (like Tipu Sultan) and some decided to go with the English for whatever reason. But, you’re what you are and you’re the one who’s living in the present. So, let’s discuss present day reality.

Let me ask you something, you do carry a passport, right? You may not believe in any national boundaries, may not waived a flag since the age of 12, but you live under English jurisdiction, pay taxes to England and if you get disabled (Allah forbid, I’m just trying to give an analogy here) by an accident, you’ll get social security benefits from England? So, you’re taking the benefits of being a citizen of a country but refusing to admit it? Isn’t that hypocrisy?

Most of the people in this real world believe in national boundaries. You know why? People need protection, people need a platform to be united, they need a country.

3 million people died in 1971 for a dream, a dream to create a country where the four pillars would be: nationalism, socialism, secularism, and democracy. People gifted their lives with a smile so that their next generation can live in a country which is the best in the world.

What we’ve got now is for another discussion. But, the reality is, we don’t need any confused elite to tell us what we need. Bangladesh was created because mass people wanted freedom from Pakistani oppression and before that, the English oppression. It may not mean anything to you (because I doubt you’ve ever had trouble to fulfil your basic needs like food, cloths, shelter, education, health etc), but people believed that with proper governance, a country like Bangladesh can provide them with these basic needs. A large number, died for it.

By saying, “Atrocities are part of war. In war there are no winners” you’ve echoed what the war criminals (and their friends) are saying for ages. Any people who’ve committed crime against humanity (be it war or whatever) need to be punished, if you want to stop future atrocities. You may have the luxury to become philosophical with 1971 and support the razakars for whatever reasons, the family of the Shaheeds are still waiting for justice. Waiving Pakistani flag in a cricket match is just showing disrespect to the martyrs and confused people won’t get it.

Salute to your boro mama who fought against oppression and racism, like his ancestor, the great Tipu Sultan. A lot to learn from him.

samircreep
April 13, 2011, 11:02 AM
The assumption here so far is that you cannot separate politics from sports, which is a fair assumption; it's impossible to separate politics from anything.

But having said that, there's something to be said for people like me who support Pakistan cricket first, over Pakistan as a country with its unfortunate legacy.

The 1991 WC was what got hooked me to cricket. I was really young then. Specifically, i was fascinated by Wasim Akram with his raw pace, the beguiling Mushy, the dogmatic Moin Khan, and above all else Imran. With his charisma, confidence and leadership skills, he was an instant role model for a 12 year old kid.

I should also mention that at that time, BD rarely played intl cricket. Aside from a Sharjah tournament here, and a SAARC tournament there, we never really had an international presence. However, I was hooked to international cricket and the Pakistan team seemed the best of the lot. That's how I became a Pakistan cricket supporter.

Down the years a couple of things happened. BD grew more of a cricketing nation and I learned more about our history and Pakistan's dark past. Unconsciously almost, I forgot about Pakistan cricket as i got caught up with our own baby-step forays into int'l cricket, but more consciously as I became angry and disturbed by what Pakistan had done to us.

I will admit that Pakistan is still my second favourite team. And i will also admit that given a chance to spend an hour with Sakib or Wasim Akram, i will jump to chat with Wasim.

But I will never wave the Pakistan flag, wear a Pakistan team jersey, nor chant Pakistan at a cricket match (or any other place).

I think i speak for a lot of people my age who got induced to cricket through Pakistan and later on learnt to detach ourselves, but still retain a lot of passion for that nation's cricket team.

Is it confusing or do I make some sense?

Zeeshan
November 23, 2011, 10:06 PM
My sentiments are with Puck and his voice.

I wonder if Pakistan plays South Africa tomorrow, how many of you "righteous" ones will support Pakistan over South Africa?

I for one will support Pakistan over SA in a heartbeat. First because of their flamboyant style of play. Secondly because of South Africa's past.

If you don't know anything about it then watch some apartheid documentaries for starters. After you are done with that then read some pages off Mandela's memoir. May be you will learn a thing or two about forgiveness and compassion and it means to be person of his magnanimity. Then visit the place where Gandhi was kicked out of the train. Finally visit the country to get some firsthand heat of racism and discrimination in restaurants where people liberally use the terms 'coolies' and 'kaffirs' (their form of nigger) may be you will come to appreciate their fine taste of culture, refinement and their extraordinary cricket players.

Oh wait. Is that double standard? Hmmm.... You see no matter how much you assimilate with them you shall forever regarded as second grade citizen to the Afrikaaner's eyes.

I for one shall take no part in a forum where it promotes, encourages and fosters racism and discrimination or creates an environment to teach children that is okay to hate a person of particular race or nationality. It's okay to HATE Pakistanis- from whom I had no direct bearing of any trouble whatsoever, yet South Africans with whom I and many other minorities had countless bad experience I need to put them on pedestal? Please.

This is wrong. This is vile and this is unethical. And I shall take no part of it.

Zunaid
November 23, 2011, 10:22 PM
Zee - the South Africans have made peace with the past or have you forgotten that there is majority rule in SAF and the ANC is in power? have you forgotten the truth and reconciliation sessions for restorative justice? They have more than made amends for their past. They have atoned it. As have Germany of today. Keep things in perspective and context.

Your rant does not wash.

AsifTheManRahman
November 24, 2011, 01:39 AM
Zee - the South Africans have made peace with the past or have you forgotten that there is majority rule in SAF and the ANC is in power? have you forgotten the truth and reconciliation sessions for restorative justice? They have more than made amends for their past. They have atoned it. As have Germany of today. Keep things in perspective and context.

Your rant does not wash.
Yeah, can't change the past, but can definitely make amends for it. Pakistan hasn't. Unfortunately, that can be said about not just the government but at least some portion of the population as well.

Navo
November 24, 2011, 08:07 AM
Along with South Africa and Germany, Cambodia too has begun this reconciliation process through their Khmer Rouge trials. Pakistan has done nothing and it's government-sanctioned history textbooks still refer to the War as the 'Indo-Pak War of 1971', to indicate that our struggle for independence was merely an underhanded attempt by India to scuttle the Pakistani state. It's similar to the selective memories that the Japanese exhibit in regard to the massacre of Nanjing.

And in terms of their cricketers, I may appreciate the skills of particular players but I can't support their team as a whole for what it represents.

FagunerAgun
November 24, 2011, 08:41 AM
There is no way to get over it until formal acknowledgement and apology
Agreed..even though my children are born in the West..they say the same thing - Pak should apologise like a civilized nation.

khan28
November 24, 2011, 10:43 AM
Agreed..even though my children are born in the West..they say the same thing - Pak should apologise like a civilized nation.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/bangladesh/1403185/Musharraf-apology-to-Bangladesh.html

FagunerAgun
November 24, 2011, 11:10 AM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/bangladesh/1403185/Musharraf-apology-to-Bangladesh.html
It was close to an official and formal apology.

NoName
November 24, 2011, 11:47 AM
That is as close as they're going to get.

Ajfar
November 24, 2011, 12:09 PM
I hate how the article states ' Bangladesh claims 3 million people died ' as if we just pulled a random number out of nowhere.
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Navo
November 24, 2011, 12:15 PM
^^ But that is EXACTLY what they do think. Have you heard of the controversy surrounding Sarmila Bose's book "Dead Reckoning - Memories of the 1971 Bangladesh War"? She contends that the actual number who died is much less than the domestically accepted figure of 3 million.

The books been received pretty warmly in the West:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2011/jul/01/dead-reckoning-sarmila-bose-review

and

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/may/21/ian-jack-bangladesh-war-genocide

F6_Turbo
November 24, 2011, 12:49 PM
War makes normal everyday people do horrible things, and terrible things happen to normal people. But the barbarity our muslim 'brothers' showed towards us goes beyond soldiers simply losing control and feeding off a mob mentality.

Their brutality and barbaric acts were carried our according to plan. They knew what they were doing, and did it in a cold and calculated manner.

Were they as efficient as Hitler and the Nazis...no, but how many are? But from the start right to the end, and the murder of our intellectuals, they did everything not only to defeat us in the field of battle, but to destroy us as a people.

So the rest of you can hold hands and sing Kumbaya, but for me it'll always be

Never Forget and Never Forgive

HereWeGo
November 24, 2011, 01:15 PM
War makes normal everyday people do horrible things, and terrible things happen to normal people. But the barbarity our muslim 'brothers' showed towards us goes beyond soldiers simply losing control and feeding off a mob mentality.

Their brutality and barbaric acts were carried our according to plan. They knew what they were doing, and did it in a cold and calculated manner.

Were they as efficient as Hitler and the Nazis...no, but how many are? But from the start right to the end, and the murder of our intellectuals, they did everything not only to defeat us in the field of battle, but to destroy us as a people.

So the rest of you can hold hands and sing Kumbaya, but for me it'll always be

Never Forget and Never Forgive

Agree with everything except the last part. If the country and its citizens are willing to apologise for their mistake and make amends than there is no reason why we should not forgive. There is not much hatred for Germans because they recognise the mistake and the atrocities they commited.
So if Pakistan is willing to apologise and make amends than we should forgive. That being said, we must never forget the liberation war and the sacrifices of the people. It is after all the most painful yet most glorious chapter in our countries history.

F6_Turbo
November 24, 2011, 01:47 PM
Agree with everything except the last part. If the country and its citizens are willing to apologise for their mistake and make amends than there is no reason why we should not forgive. There is not much hatred for Germans because they recognise the mistake and the atrocities they commited.
So if Pakistan is willing to apologise and make amends than we should forgive. That being said, we must never forget the liberation war and the sacrifices of the people. It is after all the most painful yet most glorious chapter in our countries history.

Forgiveness comes as a result of expression of genuine contrition and sorrow. I don't ask the current generation of Pakistanis to apologize for something they didn't do...nor do I judge them.

But I can't forgive the bastards who took part in the rape of this land and people. How many of them have apologized, or come close to admitting horrible atrocities were committed. They were and are busy trying to downplay what took place....

'Sure a few people died, but that's war.'
'War is ugly'
'Regrettable things MIGHT have happened'
'all sides in war committed deeds they aren't proud of'- really how many thousand Pakistani women did we rape?
'it wasn't even a war, just the evil hindus from India and the hindus in East Pakistan conspiring to destroy Pakistan'

My uncle was shot dead in front of my father and family because they refused to allow the Pakistani soldiers to use their home as a resting place(close to the river and train tracks), and when my grandfather went to his dying son, they stripped him naked and paraded him around his village(he was a respected local businessman).

My uncle was no hero, and nor was my grandfather, simply men who thought they had to make a stand. There are millions with more heroic acts than that of my gramps and uncle, and they deserve all the plaudits they receive and MORE.

Amra shob boro boro kotha boli...Bangladesh this...Bangladesh that...But we will never measure up to that generation.

My grandfather lived to the ripe age of 96 before passing away in late 1998, and the one thing I always remember him telling me was...the utter indifference with which they shot my uncle, and how they simply left him to bleed out. They didn't let them bury him till the next day(only after the Imam along with my grandmother basically begged and begged). They tried to deny him dignity even in death.

So, again I say

Never Forget, Never Forgive.


*Apologies this place is not my personal blog, and I tend to be a bit forthright(blame my parents for spoiling me) and verbose, so I'm sorry If I across as aggressive and long winded.

ahnaf
November 24, 2011, 02:00 PM
^ ashole jader apon keo ashob e shikar tara chara atar pain khokonoi keo bujhbena.. Jafar iqbal sir (his father died at that time) o akbar pa te likechilo je uni pakistan namtai shojjo korte paren na..
Thats why i cant support pak in any aspects even its sports.. You just cant ignore the fact by saying its just sports if you really know what they did to us and still never bother to apologise..
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Navo
November 24, 2011, 02:30 PM
Well-written F6_Turbo but we need to consider the broader context. This kind of 'muscular logic', fueled by feelings of revenge and rage, was what led to the advent of 'muscular Judaism' (to greatly paraphrase Benny Morris's Righteous Victims: A History of the Zionist-Arab Conflict 1881-1999) and in turn a militaristic, unapologetic Israeli state. A state that is now perpetrating 'crimes against humanity' on its Arab inhabitants, akin to those faced by its Jewish inhabitant's ancestors 60+ years ago.

We should never forget our Liberation War and we shouldn't forgive at a heartbeat, but we can't let hatred forment in our hearts indefinitely - lest we become the very monsters we loathe. (I'm of course referring to our tumultuous relationship with the Chakma and Garo people of Bangladesh.)

Zeeshan
November 24, 2011, 03:18 PM
So I don't log in for one day and suddenly see a new banner of BD Womebn achieving ODI status...

May be I am the black sheep of the family. LOL. You guys are better off without me. :p

al Furqaan
November 24, 2011, 03:33 PM
Agree with everything except the last part. If the country and its citizens are willing to apologise for their mistake and make amends than there is no reason why we should not forgive. There is not much hatred for Germans because they recognise the mistake and the atrocities they commited.
So if Pakistan is willing to apologise and make amends than we should forgive. That being said, we must never forget the liberation war and the sacrifices of the people. It is after all the most painful yet most glorious chapter in our countries history.

What if the majority of the population is apologetic, but the government itself is adamant in "saving face" on the international stage? Personally, I don't believe in holding the citizens responsible for their government actions, especially in undemocratic societies.

Pakistanis are like any other people, there are good and bad folks amongst them. Out of all the US born/raised Pakistanis I've met (and I've met dozens), I've only met one who harbors unsavory attitudes against Bengalis. He displayed the stereotypical Punjabocracy and ghowrami attitudes that we come to associate with all Pakistanis, forgetting that there are millions of Balochis, Sindhis, Pathans, and Shias in Pakistan who are still experiencing the same struggle we did.

I had one friend who once stated "both sides did some bad things" which is technically true, but his tone of tit for tat, was more out of innocent ignorance than one of racist justification. I don't think he's a bad person. No different than if some dada from Calcutta who innocently reflects that his country helped us gain freedom. I wouldn't hate on him unless he held that over my head with a righteous sense of condescention.

Equinox
November 24, 2011, 04:06 PM
My sentiments are with Puck and his voice.

I wonder if Pakistan plays South Africa tomorrow, how many of you "righteous" ones will support Pakistan over South Africa?

I for one will support Pakistan over SA in a heartbeat. First because of their flamboyant style of play. Secondly because of South Africa's past.




Pakistan's flamboyant style of play? Really?

Banglatiger84
November 24, 2011, 04:32 PM
Forgiveness comes as a result of expression of genuine contrition and sorrow. I don't ask How many of them have apologized, or come close to admitting horrible atrocities were committed. They were and are busy trying to downplay what took place....

'Sure a few people died, but that's war.'
'War is ugly'
'Regrettable things MIGHT have happened'
'all sides in war committed deeds they aren't proud of'- really how many thousand Pakistani women did we rape?
'it wasn't even a war, just the evil hindus from India and the hindus in East Pakistan conspiring to destroy Pakistan'
.

Quite a few Pakistanis say stuff much much more rabid than the above

BANFAN
November 24, 2011, 05:23 PM
Forgiveness comes as a result of expression of genuine contrition and sorrow. I don't ask the current generation of Pakistanis to apologize for something they didn't do...nor do I judge them.

But I can't forgive the bastards who took part in the rape of this land and people. How many of them have apologized, or come close to admitting horrible atrocities were committed. They were and are busy trying to downplay what took place....

'Sure a few people died, but that's war.'
'War is ugly'
'Regrettable things MIGHT have happened'
'all sides in war committed deeds they aren't proud of'- really how many thousand Pakistani women did we rape?
'it wasn't even a war, just the evil hindus from India and the hindus in East Pakistan conspiring to destroy Pakistan'

My uncle was shot dead in front of my father and family because they refused to allow the Pakistani soldiers to use their home as a resting place(close to the river and train tracks), and when my grandfather went to his dying son, they stripped him naked and paraded him around his village(he was a respected local businessman).

My uncle was no hero, and nor was my grandfather, simply men who thought they had to make a stand. There are millions with more heroic acts than that of my gramps and uncle, and they deserve all the plaudits they receive and MORE.

Amra shob boro boro kotha boli...Bangladesh this...Bangladesh that...But we will never measure up to that generation.

My grandfather lived to the ripe age of 96 before passing away in late 1998, and the one thing I always remember him telling me was...the utter indifference with which they shot my uncle, and how they simply left him to bleed out. They didn't let them bury him till the next day(only after the Imam along with my grandmother basically begged and begged). They tried to deny him dignity even in death.

So, again I say

Never Forget, Never Forgive.


*Apologies this place is not my personal blog, and I tend to be a bit forthright(blame my parents for spoiling me) and verbose, so I'm sorry If I across as aggressive and long winded.

You need to read history... I don't need because I witnessed it. First time in my life I heard someone asking, how many pakistanis were raped by us? You even don't know where the war was fought. Ur uncle's death looks to be just an incident of war for you. And why the current Pakistani generation shouldn't apologize for their ancestors crime? Aren't we affected by our ancestors un naturals deaths? May god bless u and may the departed souls of millions excuse you, including your uncle & grand pa.

zman
November 24, 2011, 06:22 PM
For those who were born before or right after the war, I can understand why they harbor a strong feeling against Pakistan. Their lives were directly or indirectly affected by the war in a big way.

For later generations however, I think even thinking about Pakistan is nothing but a waste of time. My personal stand is I am neither pro nor anti Pakistan. To me the welfare of our nation today is more important than what happened in the past.

If this were an issue that could galvanize the nation and propel us to rapid development and future success, then I'd be all for it. Unfortunately it's as clear as daylight today this issue can't make our nation tick the way it did in 71. I'm all for Pakistani politicians coming out and publicly apologizing for their atrocities during the war. If that doesn't happen anytime soon, am I going to lose any sleep over it? No. For two simple reasons-- A) I don't see it as a prerequisite condition for us to moving forward as a nation. I don't even see us suddenly becoming a well respected nation in the world community just because Pakistan made a public statement. B) Presently it's beyond our control. We're not a nation powerful enough to force them into making a statement of apology. Hence I'd rather dwell on more pressing issues that can be solved in the near future and are within our control.

Today the ones who benefit from this anti or pro Pakistan sentiment are the crooked politicians--whether they're pro Pakistani or Anti Pakistani, and they feed off the sentiment of the people, use it as a tool and political product to introduce anarchy in every city and every village in the country, and in the process accumulate tremendous amount of personal wealth. This is good money making business regardless of which camp you belong to--anti or pro Pakistan.

Pakistan is like the ex girlfriend who left a lasting impression. Some still love her and some hate her. The best way to move forward at this juncture is to just forget her and focus on other important things. Things we can really control and that will make a real difference in peoples' lives, to our nation and to our country. Until that happens, guess who's still winning the war of the minds, decades after conceding defeat on the battlefield?

BANFAN
November 24, 2011, 06:30 PM
Your post is very much self contradicting. I'm all for friendly relations with Pak without any apology, but what do u gain from that? Does Pak have anything to offer our economy? If US money stops, Pak is a begged.

We are much better of having good relation with India and enjoy a 1.2 billion market size. Pak will follow you for it's own benefit. We don't need Pak, they need Bangladesh for their own benefits. So why do we even have to think of them? Whether u are born before or after liberation is immaterial.

Naimul_Hd
November 24, 2011, 06:31 PM
Pakistan is like the ex girlfriend who left a lasting impression. Some still love her and some hate her. As we all know the best way to move forward at this juncture is to just forget her and focus on other important things. Things we can really control and that will make a real difference in peoples' lives, to our nation and to our country.

How about ex-boy friend ? who raped you, got you pregnant and now don't want to give name to your child and nor want to accept you as his lover ?? Still love him ??

sorry, i have to take this example only to come down to your lane and make you feel.

zman
November 24, 2011, 06:35 PM
How about ex-boy friend ? who raped you, got you pregnant and now don't want to give name to your child and nor want to accept you as his lover ?? Still love him ??

sorry, i have to take this example only to come down to your lane and make you feel.

No. Thinking about him will not solve the problem whether it's loving or hating. That's why I'm against both stances.

Please feel free to explain how thinking of him can help? (fyi, Not thinking != loving)

zman
November 24, 2011, 06:40 PM
Your post is very much self contradicting. I'm all for friendly relations with Pak without any apology, but what do u gain from that? Does Pak have anything to offer our economy? If US money stops, Pak is a begged.

We are much better of having good relation with India and enjoy a 1.2 billion market size. Pak will follow you for it's own benefit. We don't need Pak, they need Bangladesh for their own benefits. So why do we even have to think of them? Whether u are born before or after liberation is immaterial.
^I didn't say we need Pak. If we don't need them, why let them torment us mentally and allow political crooks to take advantage of it and create chaos in our country?

F6_Turbo
November 24, 2011, 11:56 PM
You need to read history... I don't need because I witnessed it. First time in my life I heard someone asking, how many pakistanis were raped by us? You even don't know where the war was fought. Ur uncle's death looks to be just an incident of war for you. And why the current Pakistani generation shouldn't apologize for their ancestors crime? Aren't we affected by our ancestors un naturals deaths? May god bless u and may the departed souls of millions excuse you, including your uncle & grand pa.

Come again?

My question was rhetorical...the point was, how ridiculous it is for anyone to equate what was done to 'us' with any sufferings Pakistanis might have faced during the war.

My uncles death just seems an incident of war for me? <--- what does this even mean? His death, no his execution, has shaped our family, our thoughts, our feelings and continues to even 40 years after the fact.

As for not wanting the apology of the current generation - it's because I want those who committed the crimes(and so many are still alive) to apologize 1st.

Zunaid
November 25, 2011, 12:12 AM
Are we responsible for the sins of our fathers? Sometimes, we are. When, knowing the facts, we continue to remain unrepentant. When we have not tried to make those who have sinned atone for their deeds.

I do not personally hold Pakistanis of the current generation responsible for the acts committed by others of their nation before they were born or old enough to stop the genocide. However, I do wish to see an acknowledgement and acceptance of the evil that was done.

The Germans of today are not held responsible for the Nazis. But, the German nation has apologized for the acts committed by them, and made every effort to make amends for the actions of people with whom a majority of the Germans do not have anything in common. It's easier to forgive a nation this way. But, many will not ever forget.

shaad
November 25, 2011, 12:58 AM
Are we responsible for the sins of our fathers? Sometimes, we are. When, knowing the facts, we continue to remain unrepentant. When we have not tried to make those who have sinned atone for their deeds.

Zunaid, I think you raise a critical point here, that of their "knowing the facts." The impression that I've received from speaking with many, relatively younger Pakistanis, those who weren't born until much after 1971, is that they don't have a very clear notion of either what led to our struggle for independence, or the atrocities committed by their forces. Their schoolbooks and curriculum at the elementary and secondary school levels are geared towards foisting a skewed version of history -- one in which the events of 1971 are viewed simply as political sabotage carried out by India. As such, I'm impressed whenever any one of them can get past the childhood brainwashing/propaganda to examine their own history with an unbiased eye.

As for myself, I believe in not forgetting -- I think there's hardly anyone of our generation who has not lost someone in 1971. But I believe we need to look forward, to focus on developing the sovereign and independent nation that our fathers and uncles fought and died for, instead of getting mired in waiting for apologies or acknowledgements from a failed/failing state that might never be forthcoming. I suspect that too is what our freedom fighters and martyrs would have wanted -- they gained us our independence; our task is to strive to create the "Shonar Bangla" they dreamed of.

BANFAN
November 25, 2011, 03:08 AM
If a current generation Pakistani supports the war in 71 and takes that side, they share the blame equally. If they don't align themselves with their ancestors, they must separate themselves with a loud and clear apology. Is there a second option? I don't see.

Night_wolf
November 25, 2011, 03:24 AM
lol i just guessed who dig this thread up from the graves and i was right:D

Zeeshan
November 25, 2011, 03:28 AM
And I don't even have to guess your anti-Indian sentiments before clicking on WI tour of India to see that you will put some lame thing against Tendulkar..... :|

simon
November 25, 2011, 07:02 AM
^ ashole jader apon keo ashob e shikar tara chara atar pain khokonoi keo bujhbena.. Jafar iqbal sir (his father died at that time) o akbar pa te likechilo je uni pakistan namtai shojjo korte paren na..
Thats why i cant support pak in any aspects even its sports.. You just cant ignore the fact by saying its just sports if you really know what they did to us and still never bother to apologise..
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this is a very good post.
jader 71 e keo victim hoise tarai shob cheye bhalo bujhbe, kintu amar kono close friend or blood related keo 71 e suffer korenai bole ami baki lakh lakh manush er koshter kotha bhule giye Pak ke support korbo etato hote pare na,this is why I cannot support Pak in anything.

Equinox
November 25, 2011, 07:19 AM
If and when Pakistan does apologise it won't be because of morals but economics. I believe that day is coming soon. Our economy is surging while their's is on the verge of collapse. So all this discussion on whether they should apologise and repent for what they did is pointless IMO. The apology if and when it comes will be for ulterior motives and not sincere and there will remain some deluded idiots who will continue denying what happened. Hence an apology from their side has no meaning for me but I can understand if it will provide some solace to the actual victims.

Night_wolf
November 25, 2011, 08:30 AM
And I don't even have to guess your anti-Indian sentiments before clicking on WI tour of India to see that you will put some lame thing against Tendulkar..... :|

lol..got me there:D

roman
November 25, 2011, 12:16 PM
Ameer Abdullah Khan Niazi's interview. Good read.

What do you say about the commission's findings that your troops in East Pakistan indulged in loot, arson, rape and killings?
Immediately after taking command in East Pakistan, I heard numerous reports of troops indulging in loot and arson, killing people at random and without reason in areas cleared of anti-state elements. Realizing the gravity of the situation, I approached my bosses through a letter dated April 15, 1971, informing them of the mess being created. I clearly wrote in my letter that there have been reports of rapes and even the West Pakistanis are not being spared. I informed my seniors that even officers have been suspected of indulging in this shameful activity.
However, despite repeated warnings and instructions, the respective commanders failed to curb this alarming state of indiscipline. And this trend definitely undermined our troops' battle efficiency.

************************/news/2004/feb/02inter1.htm

HereWeGo
November 25, 2011, 03:06 PM
What if the majority of the population is apologetic, but the government itself is adamant in "saving face" on the international stage? Personally, I don't believe in holding the citizens responsible for their government actions, especially in undemocratic societies.

Pakistanis are like any other people, there are good and bad folks amongst them. Out of all the US born/raised Pakistanis I've met (and I've met dozens), I've only met one who harbors unsavory attitudes against Bengalis. He displayed the stereotypical Punjabocracy and ghowrami attitudes that we come to associate with all Pakistanis, forgetting that there are millions of Balochis, Sindhis, Pathans, and Shias in Pakistan who are still experiencing the same struggle we did.

I had one friend who once stated "both sides did some bad things" which is technically true, but his tone of tit for tat, was more out of innocent ignorance than one of racist justification. I don't think he's a bad person. No different than if some dada from Calcutta who innocently reflects that his country helped us gain freedom. I wouldn't hate on him unless he held that over my head with a righteous sense of condescention.

"Saving face at international stage??" ... I dont think it can get worse for Pakistan than it is at this time...

Anyways if majority of the people were actually apologetic than you would imagine a democratically elected government to respond positively to their wishes......
Also you would expect more than a 100 participant atleast when a well known Pakistani journalist "hamid mir" showed up with an apology banner in the street of Pakistan a couple years back.

Plus no ruler in Pakistan shall ever have the guts to take the Army to task in Pakistan, and the economic implication of such an apology would be enormous. It might overwhelm Pakistans already fragile economy..

Zeeshan
November 25, 2011, 03:54 PM
I know I trashed this thread by ranting against the forum with my badge in threat, but still I have to acknowledge that it is the most tolerant forum of many.

Tolerance is itself a virtue and hallmark of evolution, imho.

shuziburo
November 25, 2011, 06:14 PM
Yeah, can't change the past, but can definitely make amends for it. Pakistan hasn't. Unfortunately, that can be said about not just the government but at least some portion of the population as well.

At least Mosharrof apologized, although the other leaders had the opportunity for 35+ years. However, none wanted to offer reparations for what they did. The western newspapers reported 500,000 killed in 1971. Our own estimate is 3M. The true number is somewhere in between.

I have had a chance to talk to many educated, rational Pakistanis. You'll be surprised how misinformed they are. Pakistan government and media still tell them a fairy tale where Pakistani army attacked us only after we stormed the barracks, snatched the wives/daughters of the officers, molested them! That the whole thing was because of India's messing with Pakistan and not Bhutto or Yahiya/Tikka Khan's doing! The "bir shrestho" and all others are portrayed as the biggest traitors! It is my policy to never start a shouting match in these situations. You cannot gain anything that way. I tell them that I would like to have a more informed discussion with them. But, they should brush up their history about the 1970 election and Bhutto's role after AL got absolute majority in Pakistan. I also tell them, please find out why AL won so big. I tell them that don't read from any of the subcontinental sources, but use the western newspapers of 1971; you'll be ashamed at what you find out about your own people. Some went out and tried to educate themselves. The majority wanted to keep their heads buried in sand.

shuziburo
November 25, 2011, 06:22 PM
War makes normal everyday people do horrible things, and terrible things happen to normal people. But the barbarity our muslim 'brothers' showed towards us goes beyond soldiers simply losing control and feeding off a mob mentality.

Their brutality and barbaric acts were carried our according to plan. They knew what they were doing, and did it in a cold and calculated manner.

Were they as efficient as Hitler and the Nazis...no, but how many are? But from the start right to the end, and the murder of our intellectuals, they did everything not only to defeat us in the field of battle, but to destroy us as a people.

So the rest of you can hold hands and sing Kumbaya, but for me it'll always be

Never Forget and Never Forgive


I do not subscribe to this motto. I feel that it is important to leave the past behind, without forgetting what happened. Otherwise, we'll always be in reverse gear.
They were more efficient than Hitler! It took him 6+ years to do the killings. Our "brothers" killed at least 500,000 of us in 9 months!
My father was a college professor and my nana was a retired magistrate. Both would have been killed if Pakistan did not surrender for another 7 days.

shuziburo
November 25, 2011, 06:46 PM
^ ashole jader apon keo ashob e shikar tara chara atar pain khokonoi keo bujhbena.. Jafar iqbal sir (his father died at that time) o akbar pa te likechilo je uni pakistan namtai shojjo korte paren na..
Thats why i cant support pak in any aspects even its sports.. You just cant ignore the fact by saying its just sports if you really know what they did to us and still never bother to apologise..
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I wish you did not bring Dr. Iqbal into this discussion. He is a great writer and I have many of his books. But, his irrational hatred against the religious people makes no sense. According to him (or at least many of his juvenile novels), Islam equals girls being kept at home. Uneducated. There are some "religious" people in our country who profess that. But, in Islam, it obligatory on everyone, man or woman, to seek knowledge. After the Prophet (SAWS) died, people used to ask the knowledgeable companions any religious questions that arose. Everyday there will be a long line of people asking questions in front of two houses. One belonged to Abdullah-Ibn-Abbas and the other belonged to Ayesha Siddiqua. Yes, one of the two biggest scholars at that time was a woman.

I am not a 100% clear on another thing. His father was actually called from home by a rajakar and was likely called by them as well. Hating a whole nation of people who may not even have been responsible for this death?

I personally try to educate the Pakistanis I know about what happened. Many are unwilling to find out what really happened, but many have. I admired Imran Khan as a player, but never liked him as a person. That is, until, I watched this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fmq8yz_Ahk. It took a big man to admit what he admitted in that TV interview.

shuziburo
November 25, 2011, 06:47 PM
So I don't log in for one day and suddenly see a new banner of BD Womebn achieving ODI status...

May be I am the black sheep of the family. LOL. You guys are better off without me. :p

Zee, this should teach you never let a day pass without BC!

shuziburo
November 25, 2011, 06:52 PM
Your post is very much self contradicting. I'm all for friendly relations with Pak without any apology, but what do u gain from that? Does Pak have anything to offer our economy? If US money stops, Pak is a begged.

We are much better of having good relation with India and enjoy a 1.2 billion market size. Pak will follow you for it's own benefit. We don't need Pak, they need Bangladesh for their own benefits. So why do we even have to think of them? Whether u are born before or after liberation is immaterial.

It is potentially a huge market. But, in practice, it is closed to Bangladeshi goods. Anytime a Bangladeshi good starts gaining market share, they raise its price by imposing tariff at state level. We carry all Indian channels, but no cable carrier in West Bengal carries Bangladeshi channel, although there is demand, especially for the TV natoks.

ahnaf
November 26, 2011, 08:11 AM
I wish you did not bring Dr. Iqbal into this discussion. He is a great writer and I have many of his books. But, his irrational hatred against the religious people makes no sense. According to him (or at least many of his juvenile novels), Islam equals girls being kept at home. Uneducated. There are some "religious" people in our country who profess that. But, in Islam, it obligatory on everyone, man or woman, to seek knowledge. After the Prophet (SAWS) died, people used to ask the knowledgeable companions any religious questions that arose. Everyday there will be a long line of people asking questions in front of two houses. One belonged to Abdullah-Ibn-Abbas and the other belonged to Ayesha Siddiqua. Yes, one of the two biggest scholars at that time was a woman.

I am not a 100% clear on another thing. His father was actually called from home by a rajakar and was likely called by them as well. Hating a whole nation of people who may not even have been responsible for this death?

I personally try to educate the Pakistanis I know about what happened. Many are unwilling to find out what really happened, but many have. I admired Imran Khan as a player, but never liked him as a person. That is, until, I watched this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fmq8yz_Ahk. It took a big man to admit what he admitted in that TV interview.

really? Where he told that or wrote something like that?
I have read almost every single books of him.. I dont miss his coloums that pa publishes regularly..but
I never read such things ..
Sorry.. You are totally wrong on this.. I dont know from where you have got this info.. His father was a freedom fighter..
You can say what you want but If your father had died in 71 than im sure you'll also say the same thing..
And finally i failed to understand why you've bought our religion into this??
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shuziburo
November 26, 2011, 12:13 PM
really? Where he told that or wrote something like that?
I have read almost every single books of him.. I dont miss his coloums that pa publishes regularly..but
I never read such things ..
Sorry.. You are totally wrong on this.. I dont know from where you have got this info.. His father was a freedom fighter..
You can say what you want but If your father had died in 71 than im sure you'll also say the same thing..
And finally i failed to understand why you've bought our religion into this??
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I have all his books published until 2010. (He is a very powerful writer and I like his writing, but not these underlying "stuff.") He brings these anti-religious "stuff" quite effectively and subtly. For example, you could go back and read "[বাংলা]বুবুনের বাবা[/বাংলা]" and "[বাংলা]রাজু ও আগুনালির ভুত[/বাংলা]". Clearly, he is an atheist, but I wish he did not try to push this into the [বাংলা]সুকোমল[/বাংলা] minds of the children. I can bring a lot more details from his writings, but this is neither the time nor the place.

You could be right, but necessarily. I know families that never got over the scars of losing loved ones in 1971, but I also know some who managed to put the trauma behind them and moved forward with their lives.

I guess it is impossible to leave religion out responding to the point you made. :) Pakistan was created on the basis of religion. The 1971 rulers of Pakistan wanted to kill us all on the basis of religion, alleging that we were all hindus and all hindus had to be killed!!!!

You probably feel strongly about this, but so do I. I am a scientist by profession and proclivity, but also somewhat religious. As a result, I do react when I see the religion attacked unfairly or in a uninformed manner. If we cannot agree on some these issues, let us agree to disagree. I can live with others not agreeing with me. BTW, I'll probably buy his books again during my next trip and get peeved reading certain portions of those books. No one ever said that we have to be rational all the time.

shuziburo
November 26, 2011, 02:54 PM
I am a member of several other online forums, but this is the only one where I am active. Why? Not because we never have disagreements here, but because for the most part, we are able to talk rationally about the controversial issues. Mutual respect is the key, I believe. Also, the moderators do a great job to take control if any thread might be at risk of running out of control.

ahnaf
November 26, 2011, 03:59 PM
I have all his books published until 2010. (He is a very powerful writer and I like his writing, but not these underlying "stuff.") He brings these anti-religious "stuff" quite effectively and subtly. For example, you could go back and read "[বাংলা]বুবুনের বাবা[/বাংলা]" and "[বাংলা]রাজু ও আগুনালির ভুত[/বাংলা]". Clearly, he is an atheist, but I wish he did not try to push this into the [বাংলা]সুকোমল[/বাংলা] minds of the children. I can bring a lot more details from his writings, but this is neither the time nor the place.

You could be right, but necessarily. I know families that never got over the scars of losing loved ones in 1971, but I also know some who managed to put the trauma behind them and moved forward with their lives.

I guess it is impossible to leave religion out responding to the point you made. :) Pakistan was created on the basis of religion. The 1971 rulers of Pakistan wanted to kill us all on the basis of religion, alleging that we were all hindus and all hindus had to be killed!!!!

You probably feel strongly about this, but so do I. I am a scientist by profession and proclivity, but also somewhat religious. As a result, I do react when I see the religion attacked unfairly or in a uninformed manner. If we cannot agree on some these issues, let us agree to disagree. I can live with others not agreeing with me. BTW, I'll probably buy his books again during my next trip and get peeved reading certain portions of those books. No one ever said that we have to be rational all the time.

im not saying he do believe in holly quran or in allah..may he do may be not but its totally wrong to say he hate those who believe and follow these...
Yeah..some may forget and move forward but most cant.. you should also know after saying that he apologised also for his blind hatred towards pakistan..
I meant i was just quoting jafar iqbal's feelings about pak because i wanted to show only a victim of 71 knows the pain of loosing someone they love..(may be you thought he hate pak not only for war but also its a muslim country which he didnt meant neither i)..
I think i'll be minimum 10 year younger than you..surely you know many things in details than me but from what i know pakistan rulers wanted to kill us because they thought most of us were hindu i dont agree with this..

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Banglatiger84
November 27, 2011, 04:15 AM
but from what i know pakistan rulers wanted to kill us because they thought most of us were hindu i dont agree with this..




Thuis bit of what you know couldnt be more distorted than what actually happened....

riankhan
November 27, 2011, 05:12 AM
im not saying he do believe in holly quran or in allah..may he do may be not but its totally wrong to say he hate those who believe and follow these...
Yeah..some may forget and move forward but most cant.. you should also know after saying that he apologised also for his blind hatred towards pakistan..
I meant i was just quoting jafar iqbal's feelings about pak because i wanted to show only a victim of 71 knows the pain of loosing someone they love..(may be you thought he hate pak not only for war but also its a muslim country which he didnt meant neither i)..
I think i'll be minimum 10 year younger than you..surely you know many things in details than me but from what i know pakistan rulers wanted to kill us because they thought most of us were hindu i dont agree with this..

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I was following Suziburo vai's posts for a while, and smiling as I had similar experiences with my Pakistani friends in EU (most of them are post graduates). They read a complete different history about 71 in schools. However, some of them did seek for the truth and some times showed their apologetic explanations as well!

I am a big fan of Jafar Iqbal sir's writings. But I guess, no one is perfect. Regarding him, I will go with Suziburo vai this time :up:

Zunaid
November 27, 2011, 05:57 AM
I am a big fan of Jafar Iqbal sir's writings. But I guess, no one is perfect. Regarding him, I will go with Suziburo vai this time :up:

A bit off-topic.

I am a big fan of Shuja bhai - I have met him a number of times.
I am a big fan of Jafar Iqbal - I have met him a number of times.

I am even a fan of you - I have not met you yet, though.

But - yes, no one is perfect. Just because someone doesn't believe in religion does not make that person imperfect. Or, Just because someone believes in religion does not make that person imperfect either.

It is what you do with those beliefs that can cause issues.

F6_Turbo
November 27, 2011, 06:13 AM
Militant Atheists :smh:

riankhan
November 27, 2011, 07:54 AM
A bit off-topic.

I am a big fan of Shuja bhai - I have met him a number of times.
I am a big fan of Jafar Iqbal - I have met him a number of times.

I am even a fan of you - I have not met you yet, though.

But - yes, no one is perfect. Just because someone doesn't believe in religion does not make that person imperfect. Or, Just because someone believes in religion does not make that person imperfect either.

It is what you do with those beliefs that can cause issues.

Thanks for your appreciation Doc :)

Its not about his (Iqbal Sir's) personal belief, or his own conception towards a specific religion. Instead, its some of his written arguments (or statements?) towards religion, which disturbed me. IMO, he may not have a proper knowledge on some religious facts.

Any ways, its a bit uncomfortable to bring his name, as he's one of the rare respectable man in BD, for me :(

shuziburo
November 27, 2011, 09:31 PM
Thanks for your appreciation Doc :)

Its not about his (Iqbal Sir's) personal belief, or his own conception towards a specific religion. Instead, its some of his written arguments (or statements?) towards religion, which disturbed me. IMO, he may not have a proper knowledge on some religious facts.

Any ways, its a bit uncomfortable to bring his name, as he's one of the rare respectable man in BD, for me :(

Absolutely. There are things I don't like about his writing, but one should look at what else he has done. He had a very good job in the USA and he left it to teach in Bangladesh. Having been a teacher before coming here and having done it last year, I know teaching in Bangladesh is a truly thankless job. He has been doing this without complaining for many years.

shuziburo
November 27, 2011, 09:50 PM
A bit off-topic.

I am a big fan of Shuja bhai - I have met him a number of times.
I am a big fan of Jafar Iqbal - I have met him a number of times.

I am even a fan of you - I have not met you yet, though.

But - yes, no one is perfect. Just because someone doesn't believe in religion does not make that person imperfect. Or, Just because someone believes in religion does not make that person imperfect either.

It is what you do with those beliefs that can cause issues.

Thank you, Zunaid. We all know what those beliefs can do. Probably more than 50% of all the problems in today's world is due to religious intolerance (including the intolerance of the atheists about the religious people). These idiots are not willing to live by "Live and let live."

You all know where I stand where religion is concerned. But, I cannot tolerate extremist religious people. Everyone is entitled to one's beliefs. The Qur'an clearly states: "There is no compulsion in religion." [2:256] I believe I need to let others know about my religion, but in a manner that is not offensive to anyone. If anyone shows interest in learning more, I am open to pointing them to other sources. I am not knowledgeable to answer to many questions anyway. Otherwise, I don't bring up my religion again.

I am sure that Professor Iqbal feels that he needs to educate the kids so that they don't become [বাংলা]ধর্মান্ধ[/বাংলা]. I guess he does not fully realize that there could be a middle ground. One can believe in science and God. (For example, earthquake happens because of the movement of tectonic plates, but God can make the plates move to cause earthquake.) But, that is a whole new topic.

As I already mentioned, I admire many things about him. Otherwise, I would not have all his books (until 2010) in my collection.

simon
November 29, 2011, 09:07 AM
I am hoping that La-misa our most Re-Lie-Able source & Fahmim bro will give us some info about the crowd who were cheering for Pak. :waiting:

Night_wolf
November 29, 2011, 09:16 AM
I am hoping that La-misa our most Re-Lie-Able source & Fahmim bro will give us some info about the crowd who were cheering for Pak. :waiting:

ahem but will u survive to hear about that?...specially after u called La-Misa our most Re-LIE-Able source?

mufi_02
November 29, 2011, 09:37 AM
There were some disgusting crowds waving Pak flags today.

simon
November 29, 2011, 09:40 AM
ahem but will u survive to hear about that?...specially after u called La-Misa our most Re-LIE-Able source?

for your kind information I don't live in Dhaka,near/at Mirpur & Lamisa doesn't know my domicile addrsse either. ;)

mufi_02
November 29, 2011, 09:44 AM
I think Mods locked the Match Thread. It was getting out of control with BD and Pak fans.

Night_wolf
November 29, 2011, 09:51 AM
for your kind information I don't live in Dhaka,near/at Mirpur & Lamisa doesn't know my domicile addrsse either. ;)

brother u left me!!..who is gona save me now from Curse of the scorpion queen??

F6_Turbo
November 29, 2011, 10:06 AM
There were some disgusting crowds waving Pak flags today.

But... But...they only support Pakistan because they love to watch exciting cricket. :lol:

shuziburo
November 29, 2011, 02:25 PM
There were some disgusting crowds waving Pak flags today.

I hope they are Pakistanis. If Bangladeshis were waving Pakistani flags, we have done a poor job of educating our young generation about our Liberation War.

HereWeGo
November 29, 2011, 02:48 PM
I hope they are Pakistanis. If Bangladeshis were waving Pakistani flags, we have done a poor job of educating our young generation about our Liberation War.

What do you expect when our history books get rewritten every 5 years based on the political party on power... Heck these guys cant even agree on who declared independence... What do u expect from a generation of kids who has always been misguided.

But its sickening to see Pakistani flags being waved like that in your own backyard with home team playing...

mufi_02
November 29, 2011, 02:57 PM
We need the younger generations to watch this video on a weekly basis!!

Every time I watch this video, I get so excited! One of the best Bangla song in my opinion.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/SXDGWN_YJEg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

roman
November 29, 2011, 03:25 PM
How do we know that those who were waving Pakistani flags were not actually Pakistani? We have seen many Indian Flags in the stadium during India's tour. I understand that we have an unforgiving past with them but acting like this wont make us any more patriotic. Patriotism is much deeper, much bigger than this.

We have sacrificed 3 million lives for our independence ( my uncle was one of them, I grew up listening to stories about how he left Pakistan Army and joined Mukti Bahini and how brutally he was killed), so I just dont want to believe that any sane Bangladeshi will wave Pakistani flag when Bangladesh is playing against Pakistan. I simply cant...

ahnaf
November 29, 2011, 03:30 PM
Ato rag lagtechilo jhokon dheklam kichu foreigner amader flag niye eshe support korche but nijer desher lokra amader ak akta wicket porar sathe nachanachi korche..pakistan er flag niye ashche math e.. Hayre bangali..
amar jodi power thakto agulo shob gulo re dhore amon shikka ditam jibone e bhulto na...
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ahnaf
November 29, 2011, 03:31 PM
How do we know that those who were waving Pakistani flags were not actually Pakistani? We have seen many Indian Flags in the stadium during India's tour. I understand that we have an unforgiving past with them but acting like this wont make us any more patriotic. Patriotism is much deeper, much bigger than this.

We have sacrificed 3 million lives for our independence ( my uncle was one of them, I grew up listening to stories about how he left Pakistan Army and joined Mukti Bahini and how brutally he was killed), so I just dont want to believe that any sane Bangladeshi will wave Pakistani flag when Bangladesh is playing against Pakistan. I simply cant...

but there are who will do that..actually doing..its true..
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roman
November 29, 2011, 03:36 PM
but there are who will do that..actually doing..its true..

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in that case they are not Bangladeshi in my book. We had Razakars. were they Bangladeshi? I still believe that a sane Bangladeshi will never ever wave Pakistani flag when Bangladesh is playing against Pakistan.

Equinox
November 29, 2011, 03:40 PM
I hope they are Pakistanis. If Bangladeshis were waving Pakistani flags, we have done a poor job of educating our young generation about our Liberation War.
Almost 40 - 45 percent (if not 50) seemed like Pakistani supporters to me. Now there may be a quota awarded to the Pakistani High Commission and dignitories but I doubt it'd be that high and most were seated in the general stands so it's safe to assume that the majority of people supporting Pakistan today in the stadium were Bangladeshis.

ahnaf
November 29, 2011, 03:49 PM
in that case they are not Bangladeshi in my book. We had Razakars. were they Bangladeshi? I still believe that a sane Bangladeshi will never ever wave Pakistani flag when Bangladesh is playing against Pakistan.

ajke match harar cheyeo amader stadium people gulor reaction dheke onek beshi kosto paisi.. Seriously as a nation we dont have any self respect..thats why we are not improving..
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simon
November 29, 2011, 04:15 PM
ajke match harar cheyeo amader stadium people gulor reaction dheke onek beshi kosto paisi.. Seriously as a nation we dont have any self respect..thats why we are not improving..
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very true Ahnaf :(

akabir77
November 29, 2011, 05:00 PM
There is a big bhiari group lives in mirpur though... I am just trying to justify my self... could not believe my eyes...I wish i had a gun and could go to the stadium and ask each one of those to show their passport or face the music...

shuziburo
November 29, 2011, 06:51 PM
Even after 40 years!

Dilscoop
November 29, 2011, 09:30 PM
How do we know that those who were waving Pakistani flags were not actually Pakistani? (...)
Well we don't. But what bothers me is when the whole ground cheers for Pakistan, not just the ones with Pak flags. Everyone went nuts when Afridi hit that 6s. I can understand girls going crazy for him (even though I don't get why..) but what about the guys?

Zeeshan
November 29, 2011, 09:44 PM
I know it makes us queasy to see them fly the flags, but what made my day was the foreigners who showed support for us... and of course the photogenic chick who hogged 90% of photo op time

Dilscoop
November 29, 2011, 10:39 PM
Someone give them the espn3 link so they can see themselves

sufism
November 30, 2011, 12:57 AM
I thought this would be a good place to share this. A Pakistani friend sent these links to me about a year ago. It's a Pakistani documentary about what happened in 71. I was surprised to see there are some very sane people in Pakistan. According to my friend, most individuals interviewed in this documentary are highly regarded. I still felt it does not tell the entire story. Nevertheless, I must give credit to some of those individuals interviewed. A word of caution, it is in Urdu. I would not understand even 30% of it if my friend did not help. And finally, if you do not have time just watch part 4 from 4:00 and on wards. That gentleman sums it up about the genocide.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHEZRXgn4j4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hIV2jfH5U0&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3P-3R6jh4Lw&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzYOXwPfMEg&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuzFtItXmEk&feature=relmfu

Razi
November 30, 2011, 02:24 PM
Feeling ashamed of myself knowing that these (https://www.facebook.com/notes/%E0%A6%8F%E0%A6%A6%E0%A7%87%E0%A6%B0-%E0%A6%9A%E0%A6%BF%E0%A6%A8%E0%A7%87-%E0%A6%B0%E0%A6%BE%E0%A6%96%E0%A7%81%E0%A6%A8-%E0%A6%8F%E0%A6%B0%E0%A6%BE-%E0%A6%A6%E0%A7%87%E0%A6%B6%E0%A7%87%E0%A6%B0-%E0%A6%B6%E0%A6%A4%E0%A7%8D%E0%A6%B0%E0%A7%81/%E0%A6%8F%E0%A6%A6%E0%A7%87%E0%A6%B0-%E0%A6%9A%E0%A6%BF%E0%A6%A8%E0%A7%87-%E0%A6%B0%E0%A6%BE%E0%A6%96%E0%A7%81%E0%A6%A8-%E0%A6%8F%E0%A6%B0%E0%A6%BE-%E0%A6%A8%E0%A6%AC%E0%A7%8D%E0%A6%AF-%E0%A6%B0%E0%A6%BE%E0%A6%9C%E0%A6%BE%E0%A6%95%E0%A 6%BE%E0%A6%B0/144938308943082) are my fellow countrymen.

ahnaf
November 30, 2011, 03:12 PM
^thanks for sharing
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simon
November 30, 2011, 03:33 PM
good share Razi
i knew some bloggers & FBers will start digging,not that I'm not liking it,au contraire it's good

al Furqaan
November 30, 2011, 04:01 PM
Well we don't. But what bothers me is when the whole ground cheers for Pakistan, not just the ones with Pak flags. Everyone went nuts when Afridi hit that 6s. I can understand girls going crazy for him (even though I don't get why..) but what about the guys?

i didn't hear the whole ground cheering when Afridi hit the six. granted that one girl waving the flag was probably bangladeshi. but i don't mere flag waving at a game is a great indicator of things, even though i stated earler that i'd be suprised if any Bangladeshis waved the Pakistan flag during this series. But i don't see anything wrong if poeple can paint there faces in the BD and other countries flag. Its the same thing to me barring any other evidence of high treason.

al Furqaan
November 30, 2011, 04:11 PM
Zee - the South Africans have made peace with the past or have you forgotten that there is majority rule in SAF and the ANC is in power? have you forgotten the truth and reconciliation sessions for restorative justice? They have more than made amends for their past. They have atoned it. As have Germany of today. Keep things in perspective and context.

Your rant does not wash.

I agree with Doc, as compassionate as Zeeshan's post is, crimes against others are just as wrong and should be condemned, but crimes committed against oneself is of paramount importance. Of course there is the fact of atonement, which also leads to reverse atonement...which is why I choose to hold India under the same microscope as Pakistan of 1971 or today. Millions are today effected by India's legal (and illegal) but brutal policies across the border. Are there millions somehow less than the millions of 71? Are their victims less victimized? I think standards should be equal across the board regardless of "identity". "Self above ALL others" if you are concerned with Bangladeshi national interest I say.

simon
November 30, 2011, 04:25 PM
Well we don't. But what bothers me is when the whole ground cheers for Pakistan, not just the ones with Pak flags. Everyone went nuts when Afridi hit that 6s. I can understand girls going crazy for him (even though I don't get why..) but what about the guys?

Dilscoop,did u hear the cheer when Afridi went for another 6 but caught by Nasir, it was the loudest in that match.:flag:

shuziburo
November 30, 2011, 06:57 PM
Dilscoop,did u hear the cheer when Afridi went for another 6 but caught by Nasir, it was the loudest in that match.:flag:

That is how it should be!

NoName
November 30, 2011, 09:44 PM
Geez, I'm not uber-patriotic of BD, nor have I ever lived or grown up there (was born there though), but even I support BD in their cricket matches ever since I started watching cricket (that time there was only Habibul and Ash that had any skills) regardless if they sucked. Sad to see people born and raised there supporting another team over their own.

Jadukor
November 30, 2011, 10:08 PM
We don't need to act so insecure over this whole pak celebration thing. We as a nation have nothing to prove to Pakistan. We fought, gave lives and won our liberation. Lets simply be proud of who we are and not worry about few delusional individuals. After all it's a sports ground and people have the right to enjoy themselves. Even if the entire stadium rooted for Pakistan it won't change our history or the status of our independence.

Naimul_Hd
November 30, 2011, 10:26 PM
We don't need to act so insecure over this whole pak celebration thing. We as a nation have nothing to prove to Pakistan. We fought, gave lives and won our liberation. Lets simply be proud of who we are and not worry about few delusional individuals. After all it's a sports ground and people have the right to enjoy themselves. Even if the entire stadium rooted for Pakistan it won't change our history or the status of our independence.

It wont change the history, but very few people will remain to cherish that history. Then whats the point of having that history if people hardly care about ?

PoorFan
November 30, 2011, 10:33 PM
Feeling ashamed of myself knowing that these (https://www.facebook.com/notes/%E0%A6%8F%E0%A6%A6%E0%A7%87%E0%A6%B0-%E0%A6%9A%E0%A6%BF%E0%A6%A8%E0%A7%87-%E0%A6%B0%E0%A6%BE%E0%A6%96%E0%A7%81%E0%A6%A8-%E0%A6%8F%E0%A6%B0%E0%A6%BE-%E0%A6%A6%E0%A7%87%E0%A6%B6%E0%A7%87%E0%A6%B0-%E0%A6%B6%E0%A6%A4%E0%A7%8D%E0%A6%B0%E0%A7%81/%E0%A6%8F%E0%A6%A6%E0%A7%87%E0%A6%B0-%E0%A6%9A%E0%A6%BF%E0%A6%A8%E0%A7%87-%E0%A6%B0%E0%A6%BE%E0%A6%96%E0%A7%81%E0%A6%A8-%E0%A6%8F%E0%A6%B0%E0%A6%BE-%E0%A6%A8%E0%A6%AC%E0%A7%8D%E0%A6%AF-%E0%A6%B0%E0%A6%BE%E0%A6%9C%E0%A6%BE%E0%A6%95%E0%A 6%BE%E0%A6%B0/144938308943082) are my fellow countrymen.

We don't need to act so insecure over this whole pak celebration thing. We as a nation have nothing to prove to Pakistan. We fought, gave lives and won our liberation. Lets simply be proud of who we are and not worry about few delusional individuals. After all it's a sports ground and people have the right to enjoy themselves. Even if the entire stadium rooted for Pakistan it won't change our history or the status of our independence.
Well said. Those are teenage attention seeker like those girls who are desperate to be on TV screen by waving "Marry me Afridi". Its an 20+ years old method started from west then spread India and subcontinent. Nothing new really, I have seen it happened a decade ago in India. Those boys could have paint both Bangladesh and Pakistan flag on their cheek, instead decided to show off that they are different, and its feel "cool" getting eyes from the crowd.

Really, we should not bother at all on such pathetic attention seeker, rather should laugh on their face of their desperateness. Soon they will get to know that they are looked down by all as a pathetic, not as a cool at all.

Jadukor
November 30, 2011, 10:39 PM
Yes if the majority of the population behaved or had the mindset of the individuals we so on tv then it would be a cause for worry but we are a huge population and the behavior of a handful of young kids is not indicative of how we view things as a nation.

Zeeshan
November 30, 2011, 10:45 PM
I have to whole-heartedly agree with Jadukor and PF. At the risk of being tad philosophical, but what do YOU care if others go to hell? Because then it just brings motive of a person getting fodder for hate. Then it becomes question of if someone really wants to find some scapegoat for their hate and channel it there because of personal loss of family in the war. I am not saying one should have turn-the-other-cheek-mentality but the fact that when the martyrs died- as Shaad mentioned- it was for their vision of the best possible land.

I am all for patriotism. But bashing some lowlifes (pardon the language) just reflects a personal hatred. Surely there are many other avenue of patriotism than giving them undeserved attention?

Ajfar
November 30, 2011, 10:51 PM
I have to whole-heartedly agree with Jadukor and PF. At the risk of being tad philosophical, but what do YOU care if others go to hell? Because then it just brings motive of a person getting fodder for hate. Then it becomes question of if someone really wants to find some scapegoat for their hate and channel it there because of personal loss of family in the war. I am not saying one should have turn-the-other-cheek-mentality but the fact that when the martyrs died- as Shaad mentioned- it was for their vision of the best possible land.

I am all for patriotism. But bashing some lowlifes (pardon the language) just reflects a personal hatred. Surely there are many other avenue of patriotism than giving them undeserved attention?

Well Said!
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PoorFan
November 30, 2011, 10:51 PM
Geez, I'm not uber-patriotic of BD, nor have I ever lived or grown up there (was born there though), but even I support BD in their cricket matches ever since I started watching cricket (that time there was only Habibul and Ash that had any skills) regardless if they sucked. Sad to see people born and raised there supporting another team over their own.
Dont be sad, becouse our moron cricketers plays like morons, and some moron fans wants to feel good supporting non-morons. Let them be moron as long as they feel good.

Night_wolf
November 30, 2011, 11:21 PM
Dont be sad, becouse our moron cricketers plays like morons, and some moron fans wants to feel good supporting non-morons. Let them be moron as long as they feel good.

if this was the case then it would have been applicable in every series...just the series before we had a different scenario vs WI...

Rabz
November 30, 2011, 11:54 PM
খেলার সাথে রাজনীতি মেলানো ঠিক না (!!!) ও ফাকিপ্রেমের পক্ষে অন্যান্য যুক্তি খন্ডন
২৯ শে নভেম্বর, ২০১১


যুক্তি ১: পাকিস্তান কে যদি এতই ঘৃণা করেন তাহলে তাদের সাথে সম্পর্ক ছিন্ন করলেই হয় ! রাষ্ট্রিয় ভাবে তাদের দেশে আমন্ত্রন জানানো হয় কেন ??

খন্ডন ১ : আর্জেন্টিনার রাস্ট্রপ্রধান যখন ইংল্যান্ডে যায় অথবা ইংল্যান্ডের রাস্ট্রপ্রধান যখন আর্জেন্টিনা যায় তখনও রাস্ট্রীয় আতিথেয়তা দেয়া হয়,তাই বলে কোন আর্জেন্টাইন ইংল্যান্ডকে সমর্থন করেনা,তেমনি ইংল্যান্ড আর্জেন্টিনার সাপোর্ট করেনা।

রাশিয়ার সাথে তো জার্মানীর ভালো সম্পর্ক ,কারন জার্মানরা নিজেদের সংশোধন করছে, যুদ্ধের ক্ষতিপূরন ও দিয়েছে আবার মাফ চাইছে , সেই সাথে নিজের দেশের অপরাধীদের বিচার করছে ।

পক্ষান্তরে ফাকিস্তান এখনো ক্ষমা চায় নি , আর দেয়ার মধ্যে দিয়া গেছে কতগুলা পাকি জারজ, যারা বিভিন্ন ছুতায় ফাকিস্তানের গুনগান গায় ।

যুক্তি ২: খেলা তো খেলাই । এর সাথে রাজনীতি মেশানোর কোনো দরকার নেই ।

খন্ডন ২.১: খেলার সাথে রাজনীতি আলাদা করে দেখার কোন উপায়ই নাই। বাংলাদেশ দল বলেন বা ভারত বা ইংল্যান্ড, দুনিয়ার প্রত্যেকটা টীমই একটা রাষ্ট্রের বা রাষ্ট্রপুঞ্জের প্রতিনিধিত্ব করে, আর রাষ্ট্র ব্যাপারটাই রাজনৈতিক। খেলার সাথে রাজনীতি যদি না-ই মিশত, তবে ভারত পাকিস্তান খেলা নিয়া সবার এত আগ্রহ থাকতনা, ইংল্যান্ড অস্ট্রেলিয়ার এ্যাশেজ নিয়া এত মাতামাতি হতনা। রাজনৈতিকভাবে বা সাংস্কৃতিকভাবে এরা শত্রু বলেই এদের খেলাগুলোতেও সেই উত্তাপ ছড়ায় ।

খন্ডন ২.২: একটি কথোপকথন থেকে ব্যাপারটা আরও বোঝার চেষ্টা করি ।

রাস্তা দিয়ে হেটে যাচ্ছি এক বন্ধুর সাথে … কথা হচ্ছে …

আমিঃ আচ্ছা ক্রিকেটে এখন World Champion কে রে ?

বন্ধুঃ কেন অষ্ট্রেলিয়া

আমিঃ অষ্ট্রেলিয়া নাকি অষ্ট্রেলিয়া ক্রিকেট টিম ???

বন্ধুঃ একই তো কথা …

আমিঃ কেন এক হবে কেন ? খেললো তো ওরা ১১ জন … বড়োজোড় দলের ১৫ সদস্য আর কোচ ( যদিও অধিকাংশ কোচ আন্য দেশের হয়ে থাকে ) কে World Champion বলা যাতে পারে … তাই বলে পুরো অষ্ট্রেলিয়াকে !!!!!!

বন্ধুঃ আরে গাধা … এই যে বাংলাদেশের খেলা হচ্ছে তো ওরা কি শুধু ১১ জন খেলছে … আমরা … !!! ওরা খারাপ করলে আমরা ১৬ কোটি মানুষ হতাশায় ডুবি … ওরা ভালো করলে ১৬ কোটি মানুষ সারা দিন রাত উল্লাস করি … এই যে ওদের সমর্থন এর জন্য কত কিছু … কেন করি … কারন ওদের সাথেই জরিয়ে আছে আমাদের সবকিছু … ওদের হাতেই আজ বাংলাদেশের পতাকা … ওরা বাংলাদেশ কে তুলে ধরছে সারা বিশ্ব এর কাছে …

আমিঃ তাই নাকি !!! আচ্ছা বন্ধু তাহলে অন্য দেশ গুলোও নিশ্চয় ওদের দেশ কে তুলে ধরার জন্য খেলে ???

বন্ধুঃ তুই যে এতো গাধা আগে জানতাম না … শোন যে কোন খেলায় দেশ ভিত্তিতে কেন এসেছে জানিস ??? ঐ দেশকে সারা পৃথিবীর সামনে তুলে ধরার জন্য … তাহলে তো শুধু একা একা খেললেই পারতো তাই না … আর আজকের যত নামি দামি খেলা যেমন - ফুটবল , ক্রিকেট এসব খেলা যে কিভাবে একটা দেশকে সারা বিশ্বের কাছে নিজের দেশ কে রিপ্রেজেন্ট করে চিন্তাও করা যায় না … এই যেমন ধর পৃথিবীর মানুষ কি বাংলাদেশ কে চিনতো … এই ক্রিকেট দিয়েই তো চিনলো …

আমিঃ হুম তাহলে ক্রিকেট শুধু ঐ ১৫ কে না পুরো জাতি বা দেশকেই তুলে ধরে … ??? আজ যদি বাংলাদেশ বিশ্বকাপ জেতে তাহলে ওরা শুধু ১৫ জন ই বিশ্বকাপ জিতবে না … জিতবে পুরো জাতি … পুরো বাংলাদেশ …!!!

বন্ধুঃ অবশ্যই …

আমিঃ আচ্ছা বন্ধু তোমার কি মনে হয় না ৭১ এর জন্য পাকিস্থানের ক্ষমা চাওয়া উচিত ???

বন্ধুঃ হঠাত এ প্রসংগ ??? উচিত তো … ওরা যা করেছে তা তো যুদ্ধ নয় গনহত্যা … নির্মম গণহত্যা … ওদের এই গণহত্যা পৃথিবীর ইতিহাসে বিরল নিকৃষ্ট ঘৃন্যতম অপরাধ …

আমিঃ তাহলে যে তুমি ক্রিকেটে পাকিস্থান কে সমর্থন কর !!! আজ না পাকিস্থান নিয়ে কত লাফালাফি করলে !!!

বন্ধুঃ আরে ওটা তো ক্রিকেট … ক্রিকেটে সমর্থন করলেই কি পাকিস্থানকে সমর্থন করা হয় নাকি ???

আমিঃ কেন তুমি যে বললে ক্রিকেট শুধু ১১ জন এর খেলা না … পুরো জাতির খেলা … ক্রিকেট রিপ্রেজেন্ট করে পুরো জাতি কেই ??? বাংলাদেশ ক্রিকেট দল বিশ্বকাপ জিতলে তা হবে বাংলাদেশের জয় ??? ??? ??? ???

খন্ডন ২.৩: একজন পাকিস্তান সাপোর্টার কে যদি জিজ্ঞেস করি ভারত সাপোর্ট করেন না কেন - সেখানে তিনি অবশ্যই ভারতের বর্তমানে বাংলাদেশের সাথে অমানবিক আচরণের বিষয়টি তুলে আনবেন । সীমান্ত হত্যা, টিপাইমুখ সহ অনেক বিষয় আনবেন । তখন তাদের যদি বলা হয় - আপনি নিজেই তো রাজনৈতিক কারনে ভারত কে সাপোর্ট করছেন না - তো আমাকে কেন খেলার সাথে রাজনীতি মেশাতে নিষেধ করছেন ???

খন্ডন ২.৪: বাংলাদেশ খেললে সাপোর্ট দেন কেন ? নিজের "দেশ", নিজের "রাষ্ট্র" জিনিসটা কি একটা পলিটিক্যাল এনটিটি না ?

যুক্তি ৩: পাকিস্তান ভালো খেলে/খেলা ভালো লাগে ।

খন্ডন ৩: নো কমেন্ট। ভালো লাগলে সাপোর্ট কর গিয়া । কিন্তু আমি বলবো তুমি খেলা বোঝ না । পাকিস্তান এমন বিশেষ কোন ভালো খেলে না । অস্ট্রেলিয়া-সাউথ -আফ্রিকা-ইংল্যান্ড এরা পাকিস্তানের থেকে অনেক ভালো টিম ।

যুক্তি ৪: পাকিস্তান প্রতিবেশী দেশ ।

খন্ডন ৪: ভারত-শ্রীলন্কা আরো নিকট প্রতিবেশী । এই যুক্তিতে পাকিস্তানের চেয়ে বেশি সাপোর্ট ভারত বা শ্রীলঙ্কা পাওয়ার যোগ্যতা রাখে ।

যুক্তি ৫: ধর্মীয় কারণ ।

খন্ডন ৫: বিশ্বকাপ ফুটবলে সৌদি আরব, ইরান, তুরষ্ক, তিউনিশিয়া সহ অনেক মুসলিম দেশ খেলে । সেখানে বেশির ভাগ লোককেই ব্রাজিল-আর্জেন্টিনা অথবা জার্মানি-ইটালি-স্পেন এসব দলকেই সাপোর্ট করতে দেখা যায় । সুতরাং তাদের এটা ধর্মপ্রেম নাকি পাকি প্রেম সেটা অবশ্যই সন্দেহের বিষয় ।

যুক্তি ৬: ধান ভানতে শিবের গীত এর মত ভারত টেনে আনা ।

খন্ডন ৬: ভাব দেখলে মনে হয় ক্রিকেট পৃথিবীর দুইটা দেশই খেলে - ভারত আর পাকিস্তান । পাকিস্তানের বিরোধিতা করা মানেই নাকি ভারত সাপোর্ট করা !! এই জন্য নাকি তারা পাকিস্তান সাপোর্ট করেন !! হাউ ফানি !!!!!!!!

সকল পাকি, নব্য পাকি, পাকিগো প্রতি সহানুভূতিশীল, পাকি প্রেমী ... আপনাদের সদয় অবগতির জন্য জানাচ্ছি,একাত্তরে যুদ্ধাপরাধ,হত্যা,ধ র্ষণ,নির্যাতন এবং ক্ষয়ক্ষতির জন্য পাকিস্তানের পক্ষ থেকে রাষ্ট্রীয়ভাবে নিঃশর্ত ক্ষমা প্রার্থনা এবং যথোপযুক্ত ক্ষতিপূরণ প্রাপ্তির আগে কোন ধরণের বন্ধুত্ব বা হৃদয়বৃত্তিক চর্চা করতে আমরা অপারগ। সে পর্যন্ত আমাদের তরফ থেকে আপনাদের জন্য একমাত্র বরাদ্দ বিশুদ্ধ ঘৃণা। জাস্ট গো এন্ড **** ইয়োরসেলফ ।

Source : http://www.somewhereinblog.net/blog/kisholoyrocks/29493076

PoorFan
November 30, 2011, 11:57 PM
if this was the case then it would have been applicable in every series...just the series before we had a different scenario vs WI...
You are right, though supporting WI wont seek much attention as Pak does I guess.

Naimul_Hd
December 1, 2011, 12:18 AM
খেলার সাথে রাজনীতি মেলানো ঠিক না (!!!) ও ফাকিপ্রেমের পক্ষে অন্যান্য যুক্তি খন্ডন
২৯ শে নভেম্বর, ২০১১


যুক্তি ১: পাকিস্তান কে যদি এতই ঘৃণা করেন তাহলে তাদের সাথে সম্পর্ক ছিন্ন করলেই হয় ! রাষ্ট্রিয় ভাবে তাদের দেশে আমন্ত্রন জানানো হয় কেন ??

খন্ডন ১ : আর্জেন্টিনার রাস্ট্রপ্রধান যখন ইংল্যান্ডে যায় অথবা ইংল্যান্ডের রাস্ট্রপ্রধান যখন আর্জেন্টিনা যায় তখনও রাস্ট্রীয় আতিথেয়তা দেয়া হয়,তাই বলে কোন আর্জেন্টাইন ইংল্যান্ডকে সমর্থন করেনা,তেমনি ইংল্যান্ড আর্জেন্টিনার সাপোর্ট করেনা।

রাশিয়ার সাথে তো জার্মানীর ভালো সম্পর্ক ,কারন জার্মানরা নিজেদের সংশোধন করছে, যুদ্ধের ক্ষতিপূরন ও দিয়েছে আবার মাফ চাইছে , সেই সাথে নিজের দেশের অপরাধীদের বিচার করছে ।

পক্ষান্তরে ফাকিস্তান এখনো ক্ষমা চায় নি , আর দেয়ার মধ্যে দিয়া গেছে কতগুলা পাকি জারজ, যারা বিভিন্ন ছুতায় ফাকিস্তানের গুনগান গায় ।

যুক্তি ২: খেলা তো খেলাই । এর সাথে রাজনীতি মেশানোর কোনো দরকার নেই ।

খন্ডন ২.১: খেলার সাথে রাজনীতি আলাদা করে দেখার কোন উপায়ই নাই। বাংলাদেশ দল বলেন বা ভারত বা ইংল্যান্ড, দুনিয়ার প্রত্যেকটা টীমই একটা রাষ্ট্রের বা রাষ্ট্রপুঞ্জের প্রতিনিধিত্ব করে, আর রাষ্ট্র ব্যাপারটাই রাজনৈতিক। খেলার সাথে রাজনীতি যদি না-ই মিশত, তবে ভারত পাকিস্তান খেলা নিয়া সবার এত আগ্রহ থাকতনা, ইংল্যান্ড অস্ট্রেলিয়ার এ্যাশেজ নিয়া এত মাতামাতি হতনা। রাজনৈতিকভাবে বা সাংস্কৃতিকভাবে এরা শত্রু বলেই এদের খেলাগুলোতেও সেই উত্তাপ ছড়ায় ।

খন্ডন ২.২: একটি কথোপকথন থেকে ব্যাপারটা আরও বোঝার চেষ্টা করি ।

রাস্তা দিয়ে হেটে যাচ্ছি এক বন্ধুর সাথে … কথা হচ্ছে …

আমিঃ আচ্ছা ক্রিকেটে এখন World Champion কে রে ?

বন্ধুঃ কেন অষ্ট্রেলিয়া

আমিঃ অষ্ট্রেলিয়া নাকি অষ্ট্রেলিয়া ক্রিকেট টিম ???

বন্ধুঃ একই তো কথা …

আমিঃ কেন এক হবে কেন ? খেললো তো ওরা ১১ জন … বড়োজোড় দলের ১৫ সদস্য আর কোচ ( যদিও অধিকাংশ কোচ আন্য দেশের হয়ে থাকে ) কে World Champion বলা যাতে পারে … তাই বলে পুরো অষ্ট্রেলিয়াকে !!!!!!

বন্ধুঃ আরে গাধা … এই যে বাংলাদেশের খেলা হচ্ছে তো ওরা কি শুধু ১১ জন খেলছে … আমরা … !!! ওরা খারাপ করলে আমরা ১৬ কোটি মানুষ হতাশায় ডুবি … ওরা ভালো করলে ১৬ কোটি মানুষ সারা দিন রাত উল্লাস করি … এই যে ওদের সমর্থন এর জন্য কত কিছু … কেন করি … কারন ওদের সাথেই জরিয়ে আছে আমাদের সবকিছু … ওদের হাতেই আজ বাংলাদেশের পতাকা … ওরা বাংলাদেশ কে তুলে ধরছে সারা বিশ্ব এর কাছে …

আমিঃ তাই নাকি !!! আচ্ছা বন্ধু তাহলে অন্য দেশ গুলোও নিশ্চয় ওদের দেশ কে তুলে ধরার জন্য খেলে ???

বন্ধুঃ তুই যে এতো গাধা আগে জানতাম না … শোন যে কোন খেলায় দেশ ভিত্তিতে কেন এসেছে জানিস ??? ঐ দেশকে সারা পৃথিবীর সামনে তুলে ধরার জন্য … তাহলে তো শুধু একা একা খেললেই পারতো তাই না … আর আজকের যত নামি দামি খেলা যেমন - ফুটবল , ক্রিকেট এসব খেলা যে কিভাবে একটা দেশকে সারা বিশ্বের কাছে নিজের দেশ কে রিপ্রেজেন্ট করে চিন্তাও করা যায় না … এই যেমন ধর পৃথিবীর মানুষ কি বাংলাদেশ কে চিনতো … এই ক্রিকেট দিয়েই তো চিনলো …

আমিঃ হুম তাহলে ক্রিকেট শুধু ঐ ১৫ কে না পুরো জাতি বা দেশকেই তুলে ধরে … ??? আজ যদি বাংলাদেশ বিশ্বকাপ জেতে তাহলে ওরা শুধু ১৫ জন ই বিশ্বকাপ জিতবে না … জিতবে পুরো জাতি … পুরো বাংলাদেশ …!!!

বন্ধুঃ অবশ্যই …

আমিঃ আচ্ছা বন্ধু তোমার কি মনে হয় না ৭১ এর জন্য পাকিস্থানের ক্ষমা চাওয়া উচিত ???

বন্ধুঃ হঠাত এ প্রসংগ ??? উচিত তো … ওরা যা করেছে তা তো যুদ্ধ নয় গনহত্যা … নির্মম গণহত্যা … ওদের এই গণহত্যা পৃথিবীর ইতিহাসে বিরল নিকৃষ্ট ঘৃন্যতম অপরাধ …

আমিঃ তাহলে যে তুমি ক্রিকেটে পাকিস্থান কে সমর্থন কর !!! আজ না পাকিস্থান নিয়ে কত লাফালাফি করলে !!!

বন্ধুঃ আরে ওটা তো ক্রিকেট … ক্রিকেটে সমর্থন করলেই কি পাকিস্থানকে সমর্থন করা হয় নাকি ???

আমিঃ কেন তুমি যে বললে ক্রিকেট শুধু ১১ জন এর খেলা না … পুরো জাতির খেলা … ক্রিকেট রিপ্রেজেন্ট করে পুরো জাতি কেই ??? বাংলাদেশ ক্রিকেট দল বিশ্বকাপ জিতলে তা হবে বাংলাদেশের জয় ??? ??? ??? ???

খন্ডন ২.৩: একজন পাকিস্তান সাপোর্টার কে যদি জিজ্ঞেস করি ভারত সাপোর্ট করেন না কেন - সেখানে তিনি অবশ্যই ভারতের বর্তমানে বাংলাদেশের সাথে অমানবিক আচরণের বিষয়টি তুলে আনবেন । সীমান্ত হত্যা, টিপাইমুখ সহ অনেক বিষয় আনবেন । তখন তাদের যদি বলা হয় - আপনি নিজেই তো রাজনৈতিক কারনে ভারত কে সাপোর্ট করছেন না - তো আমাকে কেন খেলার সাথে রাজনীতি মেশাতে নিষেধ করছেন ???

খন্ডন ২.৪: বাংলাদেশ খেললে সাপোর্ট দেন কেন ? নিজের "দেশ", নিজের "রাষ্ট্র" জিনিসটা কি একটা পলিটিক্যাল এনটিটি না ?

যুক্তি ৩: পাকিস্তান ভালো খেলে/খেলা ভালো লাগে ।

খন্ডন ৩: নো কমেন্ট। ভালো লাগলে সাপোর্ট কর গিয়া । কিন্তু আমি বলবো তুমি খেলা বোঝ না । পাকিস্তান এমন বিশেষ কোন ভালো খেলে না । অস্ট্রেলিয়া-সাউথ -আফ্রিকা-ইংল্যান্ড এরা পাকিস্তানের থেকে অনেক ভালো টিম ।

যুক্তি ৪: পাকিস্তান প্রতিবেশী দেশ ।

খন্ডন ৪: ভারত-শ্রীলন্কা আরো নিকট প্রতিবেশী । এই যুক্তিতে পাকিস্তানের চেয়ে বেশি সাপোর্ট ভারত বা শ্রীলঙ্কা পাওয়ার যোগ্যতা রাখে ।

যুক্তি ৫: ধর্মীয় কারণ ।

খন্ডন ৫: বিশ্বকাপ ফুটবলে সৌদি আরব, ইরান, তুরষ্ক, তিউনিশিয়া সহ অনেক মুসলিম দেশ খেলে । সেখানে বেশির ভাগ লোককেই ব্রাজিল-আর্জেন্টিনা অথবা জার্মানি-ইটালি-স্পেন এসব দলকেই সাপোর্ট করতে দেখা যায় । সুতরাং তাদের এটা ধর্মপ্রেম নাকি পাকি প্রেম সেটা অবশ্যই সন্দেহের বিষয় ।

যুক্তি ৬: ধান ভানতে শিবের গীত এর মত ভারত টেনে আনা ।

খন্ডন ৬: ভাব দেখলে মনে হয় ক্রিকেট পৃথিবীর দুইটা দেশই খেলে - ভারত আর পাকিস্তান । পাকিস্তানের বিরোধিতা করা মানেই নাকি ভারত সাপোর্ট করা !! এই জন্য নাকি তারা পাকিস্তান সাপোর্ট করেন !! হাউ ফানি !!!!!!!!

সকল পাকি, নব্য পাকি, পাকিগো প্রতি সহানুভূতিশীল, পাকি প্রেমী ... আপনাদের সদয় অবগতির জন্য জানাচ্ছি,একাত্তরে যুদ্ধাপরাধ,হত্যা,ধ র্ষণ,নির্যাতন এবং ক্ষয়ক্ষতির জন্য পাকিস্তানের পক্ষ থেকে রাষ্ট্রীয়ভাবে নিঃশর্ত ক্ষমা প্রার্থনা এবং যথোপযুক্ত ক্ষতিপূরণ প্রাপ্তির আগে কোন ধরণের বন্ধুত্ব বা হৃদয়বৃত্তিক চর্চা করতে আমরা অপারগ। সে পর্যন্ত আমাদের তরফ থেকে আপনাদের জন্য একমাত্র বরাদ্দ বিশুদ্ধ ঘৃণা। জাস্ট গো এন্ড **** ইয়োরসেলফ ।

Source : http://www.somewhereinblog.net/blog/kisholoyrocks/29493076\

thanks for sharing. :up:

mufi_02
December 1, 2011, 09:50 AM
Lol at the way the bangla article referred Pakistan as F*#%istan. That's how I refer to that country within my close circles.

shuziburo
December 1, 2011, 07:30 PM
We don't need to act so insecure over this whole pak celebration thing. We as a nation have nothing to prove to Pakistan. We fought, gave lives and won our liberation. Lets simply be proud of who we are and not worry about few delusional individuals. After all it's a sports ground and people have the right to enjoy themselves. Even if the entire stadium rooted for Pakistan it won't change our history or the status of our independence.

When PAK plays another team, I don't mind if someone supports them. But, for a Bangladeshi to support PAK against BD is completely unacceptable to me. This is where I draw the line.

shuziburo
December 1, 2011, 07:34 PM
খেলার সাথে রাজনীতি মেলানো ঠিক না (!!!) ও ফাকিপ্রেমের পক্ষে অন্যান্য যুক্তি খন্ডন
২৯ শে নভেম্বর, ২০১১

[snipped]

সকল পাকি, নব্য পাকি, পাকিগো প্রতি সহানুভূতিশীল, পাকি প্রেমী ... আপনাদের সদয় অবগতির জন্য জানাচ্ছি,একাত্তরে যুদ্ধাপরাধ,হত্যা,ধ র্ষণ,নির্যাতন এবং ক্ষয়ক্ষতির জন্য পাকিস্তানের পক্ষ থেকে রাষ্ট্রীয়ভাবে নিঃশর্ত ক্ষমা প্রার্থনা এবং যথোপযুক্ত ক্ষতিপূরণ প্রাপ্তির আগে কোন ধরণের বন্ধুত্ব বা হৃদয়বৃত্তিক চর্চা করতে আমরা অপারগ। সে পর্যন্ত আমাদের তরফ থেকে আপনাদের জন্য একমাত্র বরাদ্দ বিশুদ্ধ ঘৃণা। জাস্ট গো এন্ড **** ইয়োরসেলফ ।

Source : http://www.somewhereinblog.net/blog/kisholoyrocks/29493076

Don't agree with every point, but it makes an interesting case.

Rifat
December 1, 2011, 08:03 PM
If I was Alive in 1971, by Allah and if I had good health, I would have fought in the muktibahini along with my uncles(who by the infinite grace of the almighty are still alive today).

shuziburo
December 1, 2011, 10:53 PM
If I was Alive in 1971, by Allah and if I had good health, I would have fought in the muktibahini along with my uncles(who by the infinite grace of the almighty are still alive today).

I was alive, but was only 7+ at the time. Another 5-6 years older and I probably would have joined the war and become a martyr. :100:

CricketPagolChele
December 13, 2011, 11:20 AM
খেলার সাথে রাজনীতি মেলানো ঠিক না (!!!) ও ফাকিপ্রেমের পক্ষে অন্যান্য যুক্তি খন্ডন
২৯ শে নভেম্বর, ২০১১


যুক্তি ১: পাকিস্তান কে যদি এতই ঘৃণা করেন তাহলে তাদের সাথে সম্পর্ক ছিন্ন করলেই হয় ! রাষ্ট্রিয় ভাবে তাদের দেশে আমন্ত্রন জানানো হয় কেন ??

খন্ডন ১ : আর্জেন্টিনার রাস্ট্রপ্রধান যখন ইংল্যান্ডে যায় অথবা ইংল্যান্ডের রাস্ট্রপ্রধান যখন আর্জেন্টিনা যায় তখনও রাস্ট্রীয় আতিথেয়তা দেয়া হয়,তাই বলে কোন আর্জেন্টাইন ইংল্যান্ডকে সমর্থন করেনা,তেমনি ইংল্যান্ড আর্জেন্টিনার সাপোর্ট করেনা।

রাশিয়ার সাথে তো জার্মানীর ভালো সম্পর্ক ,কারন জার্মানরা নিজেদের সংশোধন করছে, যুদ্ধের ক্ষতিপূরন ও দিয়েছে আবার মাফ চাইছে , সেই সাথে নিজের দেশের অপরাধীদের বিচার করছে ।

পক্ষান্তরে ফাকিস্তান এখনো ক্ষমা চায় নি , আর দেয়ার মধ্যে দিয়া গেছে কতগুলা পাকি জারজ, যারা বিভিন্ন ছুতায় ফাকিস্তানের গুনগান গায় ।

যুক্তি ২: খেলা তো খেলাই । এর সাথে রাজনীতি মেশানোর কোনো দরকার নেই ।

খন্ডন ২.১: খেলার সাথে রাজনীতি আলাদা করে দেখার কোন উপায়ই নাই। বাংলাদেশ দল বলেন বা ভারত বা ইংল্যান্ড, দুনিয়ার প্রত্যেকটা টীমই একটা রাষ্ট্রের বা রাষ্ট্রপুঞ্জের প্রতিনিধিত্ব করে, আর রাষ্ট্র ব্যাপারটাই রাজনৈতিক। খেলার সাথে রাজনীতি যদি না-ই মিশত, তবে ভারত পাকিস্তান খেলা নিয়া সবার এত আগ্রহ থাকতনা, ইংল্যান্ড অস্ট্রেলিয়ার এ্যাশেজ নিয়া এত মাতামাতি হতনা। রাজনৈতিকভাবে বা সাংস্কৃতিকভাবে এরা শত্রু বলেই এদের খেলাগুলোতেও সেই উত্তাপ ছড়ায় ।

খন্ডন ২.২: একটি কথোপকথন থেকে ব্যাপারটা আরও বোঝার চেষ্টা করি ।

রাস্তা দিয়ে হেটে যাচ্ছি এক বন্ধুর সাথে … কথা হচ্ছে …

আমিঃ আচ্ছা ক্রিকেটে এখন World Champion কে রে ?

বন্ধুঃ কেন অষ্ট্রেলিয়া

আমিঃ অষ্ট্রেলিয়া নাকি অষ্ট্রেলিয়া ক্রিকেট টিম ???

বন্ধুঃ একই তো কথা …

আমিঃ কেন এক হবে কেন ? খেললো তো ওরা ১১ জন … বড়োজোড় দলের ১৫ সদস্য আর কোচ ( যদিও অধিকাংশ কোচ আন্য দেশের হয়ে থাকে ) কে World Champion বলা যাতে পারে … তাই বলে পুরো অষ্ট্রেলিয়াকে !!!!!!

বন্ধুঃ আরে গাধা … এই যে বাংলাদেশের খেলা হচ্ছে তো ওরা কি শুধু ১১ জন খেলছে … আমরা … !!! ওরা খারাপ করলে আমরা ১৬ কোটি মানুষ হতাশায় ডুবি … ওরা ভালো করলে ১৬ কোটি মানুষ সারা দিন রাত উল্লাস করি … এই যে ওদের সমর্থন এর জন্য কত কিছু … কেন করি … কারন ওদের সাথেই জরিয়ে আছে আমাদের সবকিছু … ওদের হাতেই আজ বাংলাদেশের পতাকা … ওরা বাংলাদেশ কে তুলে ধরছে সারা বিশ্ব এর কাছে …

আমিঃ তাই নাকি !!! আচ্ছা বন্ধু তাহলে অন্য দেশ গুলোও নিশ্চয় ওদের দেশ কে তুলে ধরার জন্য খেলে ???

বন্ধুঃ তুই যে এতো গাধা আগে জানতাম না … শোন যে কোন খেলায় দেশ ভিত্তিতে কেন এসেছে জানিস ??? ঐ দেশকে সারা পৃথিবীর সামনে তুলে ধরার জন্য … তাহলে তো শুধু একা একা খেললেই পারতো তাই না … আর আজকের যত নামি দামি খেলা যেমন - ফুটবল , ক্রিকেট এসব খেলা যে কিভাবে একটা দেশকে সারা বিশ্বের কাছে নিজের দেশ কে রিপ্রেজেন্ট করে চিন্তাও করা যায় না … এই যেমন ধর পৃথিবীর মানুষ কি বাংলাদেশ কে চিনতো … এই ক্রিকেট দিয়েই তো চিনলো …

আমিঃ হুম তাহলে ক্রিকেট শুধু ঐ ১৫ কে না পুরো জাতি বা দেশকেই তুলে ধরে … ??? আজ যদি বাংলাদেশ বিশ্বকাপ জেতে তাহলে ওরা শুধু ১৫ জন ই বিশ্বকাপ জিতবে না … জিতবে পুরো জাতি … পুরো বাংলাদেশ …!!!

বন্ধুঃ অবশ্যই …

আমিঃ আচ্ছা বন্ধু তোমার কি মনে হয় না ৭১ এর জন্য পাকিস্থানের ক্ষমা চাওয়া উচিত ???

বন্ধুঃ হঠাত এ প্রসংগ ??? উচিত তো … ওরা যা করেছে তা তো যুদ্ধ নয় গনহত্যা … নির্মম গণহত্যা … ওদের এই গণহত্যা পৃথিবীর ইতিহাসে বিরল নিকৃষ্ট ঘৃন্যতম অপরাধ …

আমিঃ তাহলে যে তুমি ক্রিকেটে পাকিস্থান কে সমর্থন কর !!! আজ না পাকিস্থান নিয়ে কত লাফালাফি করলে !!!

বন্ধুঃ আরে ওটা তো ক্রিকেট … ক্রিকেটে সমর্থন করলেই কি পাকিস্থানকে সমর্থন করা হয় নাকি ???

আমিঃ কেন তুমি যে বললে ক্রিকেট শুধু ১১ জন এর খেলা না … পুরো জাতির খেলা … ক্রিকেট রিপ্রেজেন্ট করে পুরো জাতি কেই ??? বাংলাদেশ ক্রিকেট দল বিশ্বকাপ জিতলে তা হবে বাংলাদেশের জয় ??? ??? ??? ???

খন্ডন ২.৩: একজন পাকিস্তান সাপোর্টার কে যদি জিজ্ঞেস করি ভারত সাপোর্ট করেন না কেন - সেখানে তিনি অবশ্যই ভারতের বর্তমানে বাংলাদেশের সাথে অমানবিক আচরণের বিষয়টি তুলে আনবেন । সীমান্ত হত্যা, টিপাইমুখ সহ অনেক বিষয় আনবেন । তখন তাদের যদি বলা হয় - আপনি নিজেই তো রাজনৈতিক কারনে ভারত কে সাপোর্ট করছেন না - তো আমাকে কেন খেলার সাথে রাজনীতি মেশাতে নিষেধ করছেন ???

খন্ডন ২.৪: বাংলাদেশ খেললে সাপোর্ট দেন কেন ? নিজের "দেশ", নিজের "রাষ্ট্র" জিনিসটা কি একটা পলিটিক্যাল এনটিটি না ?

যুক্তি ৩: পাকিস্তান ভালো খেলে/খেলা ভালো লাগে ।

খন্ডন ৩: নো কমেন্ট। ভালো লাগলে সাপোর্ট কর গিয়া । কিন্তু আমি বলবো তুমি খেলা বোঝ না । পাকিস্তান এমন বিশেষ কোন ভালো খেলে না । অস্ট্রেলিয়া-সাউথ -আফ্রিকা-ইংল্যান্ড এরা পাকিস্তানের থেকে অনেক ভালো টিম ।

যুক্তি ৪: পাকিস্তান প্রতিবেশী দেশ ।

খন্ডন ৪: ভারত-শ্রীলন্কা আরো নিকট প্রতিবেশী । এই যুক্তিতে পাকিস্তানের চেয়ে বেশি সাপোর্ট ভারত বা শ্রীলঙ্কা পাওয়ার যোগ্যতা রাখে ।

যুক্তি ৫: ধর্মীয় কারণ ।

খন্ডন ৫: বিশ্বকাপ ফুটবলে সৌদি আরব, ইরান, তুরষ্ক, তিউনিশিয়া সহ অনেক মুসলিম দেশ খেলে । সেখানে বেশির ভাগ লোককেই ব্রাজিল-আর্জেন্টিনা অথবা জার্মানি-ইটালি-স্পেন এসব দলকেই সাপোর্ট করতে দেখা যায় । সুতরাং তাদের এটা ধর্মপ্রেম নাকি পাকি প্রেম সেটা অবশ্যই সন্দেহের বিষয় ।

যুক্তি ৬: ধান ভানতে শিবের গীত এর মত ভারত টেনে আনা ।

খন্ডন ৬: ভাব দেখলে মনে হয় ক্রিকেট পৃথিবীর দুইটা দেশই খেলে - ভারত আর পাকিস্তান । পাকিস্তানের বিরোধিতা করা মানেই নাকি ভারত সাপোর্ট করা !! এই জন্য নাকি তারা পাকিস্তান সাপোর্ট করেন !! হাউ ফানি !!!!!!!!

সকল পাকি, নব্য পাকি, পাকিগো প্রতি সহানুভূতিশীল, পাকি প্রেমী ... আপনাদের সদয় অবগতির জন্য জানাচ্ছি,একাত্তরে যুদ্ধাপরাধ,হত্যা,ধ র্ষণ,নির্যাতন এবং ক্ষয়ক্ষতির জন্য পাকিস্তানের পক্ষ থেকে রাষ্ট্রীয়ভাবে নিঃশর্ত ক্ষমা প্রার্থনা এবং যথোপযুক্ত ক্ষতিপূরণ প্রাপ্তির আগে কোন ধরণের বন্ধুত্ব বা হৃদয়বৃত্তিক চর্চা করতে আমরা অপারগ। সে পর্যন্ত আমাদের তরফ থেকে আপনাদের জন্য একমাত্র বরাদ্দ বিশুদ্ধ ঘৃণা। জাস্ট গো এন্ড **** ইয়োরসেলফ ।

Source : http://www.somewhereinblog.net/blog/kisholoyrocks/29493076

If I take/apply your logic, in that case it will be "HARAM" to support even India. Indian cricket team aslo represent India same as Pakistanis, and India have been harming us since 1971, just like pakistanis did upto 1971. So in my personal opinion we Bangladeshi should not support any foreign teams at all, period (unless it benifits us). We have our own team to support. Go Bangladesh Go............ Hate all (who are so called Bangladeshi) Paki and India supporter !

RazabQ
December 13, 2011, 10:27 PM
Funny how the thread has evolved into a discussion into religious tolerance, atheism and such. But then again most FC threads go either in this direction or into the food zone.

As for my position on the cricketing topics discussed, I think samircreep's post echoes the most. So here are my commandments on sports, politics and pakistan

1) Pick an identity or two or three.

Don't go all pan-theistic, pan-nationalistic. At the end of the day, all of us originated from somewhere and will end up getting buried somewhere and guess what, we _will_ get labeled. Better you pick them then someone else does it for you. I am a Father, a Husband, a Humanist, Muslim, an American,a Musician, a Bangladeshi and a Sportsman, with the last 5-6 in no particular order.

2) Once you pick a set of identities, wear them proudly.

Know your history. Know the finer points. Know the key cultural, industrial, etc. elements. And don't back down on a contrarian view unless provided with a ton of empirical evidence. If so, re-consider and re-evaluate.

3) Don't betray your identity knowingly

You betray yourself.


So from that prism I find those here to be unwilling to pick any position of sort to be engaging in intellectual cowardice. Caveat your position. Offer some "outs", lest you are planning to run for office. But like George W's best asset, don't let anyone be in doubt as to where you stand on important issues

And again from these commandments, I find those that would support any team when it is playing against Bangladesh (or in my case USA as well) to be lacking loyalty. And remember just because you _can_ yet fire in a crowded cinema-hall doesn't mean you shoot. Just because you are rooting for Pakistan against Windies doesn't mean you need to do so in a manner that would be "dhristikotu"

al Furqaan
December 14, 2011, 02:45 PM
If I was alive in 1971, I probably would have taken up arms as well. At least I'd have liked to think that I would be brave enough. But that doesn't mean I'm anti-Pakistani or hate Pakistanis. Far from it (as anyone can tell from my posts).

Oh and I should add that I don't see any contradiction between that and my utmost duty of and for Islamic brotherhood.