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BanCricFan
June 1, 2011, 10:00 AM
The unofficial line to our history which needs to be explored and studied in my opinion:

RAW and Bangladesh

by Mohammad Zainal Abedin
(Monday, November 28, 2005)
CHAPTER – 1
KOUTILLAYA, RAW AND INDIAN FOREIGN POLICY
The main sources of inspiration for the Indian Intelligence agencies and its foreign policy are ancient Hindu pundit and politician Koutillaya and his book ‘Arthshastra’ (Economy). Koutillaya is also known as Chanakya and Vishnugupta. He was the Prime Minister of Chandra Gupta. He had written his’ book ‘Arthshastra’ between the era 321 and 300 before the birth of Christ.’ The book is divided into 15 parts and has 180 chapters. Koutillaya had applied his treacherous diplomacy to subdue and annex other states. As a result the Mourya Empire vastly expanded under his advice and supervision.
For occupation of other states Koutillaya laid down the following guidelines:

a. When your country is weak, pursue the policy of peace.
b. When your country becomes militarily strong, follow the policy of war.
c. When another state seeks your help, apply double standards.
In his book Koutillaya has recommended six principles as the basis for foreign policy.
These are: peace, war, neutrality, military preparedness, formation of alliance and duel policy. He recommends:
a. Peace should be’ established with other states through agreements.
b . War should be pursued through relentless attacks on the enemy.
c. Neutrality means complacence and indifference.
d. The ‘power of the state should be enhanced by expanding military preparedness.
e. Other states should be lured and forced into formation of alliance or friendship to seek common shelter and security.
f. Duel policy means to make peace (friendship) with one and enmity with the other (The Daily AI Mujadded : November 3, 1994).

Even two thousand three hundred years after theMoyura rule the Indian rulers of today continue to follow the Koutillaya’s policy. Koutillaya’s dictum ‘power is the ultimate truth and the main aim of an organised state should be to obtain power’, has been followed by all Indian rulers. Since Koutillaya era till today all Hindu states have been relying mainly on muscle power. In the entire history of the Hindus it is difficult, to find a single Hindu king who had followed the policy of non-violence.

Present day India has also adopted the same policy, though in pursuance of principle of dual policy, Indian rulers keep propagating about following policy of non-violence. This is done with lot of gusto to deceive the outside world about their true motives.
Indira Ghandhi was an ardent follower of ‘Koutll1aya doctrine’. She subscribed fully to Koutillaya’s policy of waging ‘battles of intrigues’ and ‘secret wars’ to achieve her unholy objectives. She created RAW, a secret intelligence agency functioning directly under the Prime Minister, to pursue her ambitious but nefarious agenda particularly in South Asian region.

The Research and Analysis Wing (RAW) was raised in September 1968 from the skeleton of Foreign Intelligence Desk of Intelligence Bureau (IB). Mr. Rameshwar Nath Kao was appointed as its first head. The new agency(RAW) was assigned the task of collection, collation and analysis of ‘intelligence from beyond India’s national frontiers. A ‘Special Operations Branch’ was also included in its organization for conducting secret and covert operations. RAW started its journey with an annual budget of two crore rupees and a staff of 250 persons: The organization grew rapidly and by 1990 its strength of officers ‘and staff had exceeded 8 thousand persons while its annual visible budget was above 500 crore rupees. RAW’s present budget is estimated to be around Rs 1500 crores. It has its own aircrafts and helicopters. RAW’s headquarters is located’ in an eleven story building in Lodhi Estate, New Delhi. Mr. A. S. Siyali, a Sikh is its current head (Director as he is officially known).

RAW is not accountable to the Indian parliament i.e. Lok Sabha and Rajya Sabha. Both Lok Sabha and Rajya Sabha have no legal right to question its activities. Neither the Public Service Commission nor the Staff Commission has any role in appointing the officers and staff of RAW. As a matter of fact RAW is one of the few organisations in
India which is absolutely sovereign. It also has the power to carry out supervisory functions on othey organisations. Theoretically RAW is accountable to the Prime Minister, but in practice, it is free from any supervisory influence. As a result RAW is known to be following its own agenda particularly concerning neighboring countries.

RAW also has great influence in formulation of external policy of India. Since the last few years RAW has become so powerful and influential that it has emerged as a major player in the internal politics as well. Besides usual functions as intelligence agency, RAW is relentlessly working for attainment of following objectives :

a. To extend Indian sovereignty over unprotected and vulnerable smaller neighbours.
b. To enhance Indian. influence particularly in the Indian Ocean region militarily, politically and culturally, so as to project and develop India as a future super power.
c. To implement the Brahmanic dream of establishment of ‘Akhand Bharat’.
RAW’s popularity, acceptability and influence increased manifold after its success in disintegration of Pakistan in 1971 and annexation of Sikkim in 1975. However, its image suffered some set backs due to debacle in Sri Lanka during 1987 and failure to enlist Pakistan as a terrorist state. Nevertheless, it has retained its image as the country’s premier intelligence agency and still wields lot of influence in policy formulation, particularly in matters relating to foreign affairs and internal security. Some observers believe that in actual fact, the foreign policy ofIndia is conceived and planned by RAW, while Ministry of External Affairs is merely an implementing body. The cardinal principles of RAW inspired foreign policy are:

a. To exert influence on other countries under the cover of friendship and co-operation.
b. To play fake role of friendship while secretly pursuing enmity .
c. To resort to threat and coercion to achieve desired objective if necessity arises.
d. To insist on the policy of bilateralism.
e. To delay resolution of problems when own moral and legal position is weak.
f. To work as a lackey of a powerful country but present itself as a super power to the weaker countries.
g. To keep the South Asian – region free from foreign influence and interference.
Now let us see as to how RAW is working to attain its usual as well as special objectives:

a. Conducting extensive espionage ‘activities by the under cover diplomats and staff posted in the Indian Missions abroad.
b. Recruiting leaders and other important persons of enemy countries. The agents include politicians, military officers and personnel, Government officials, lawyers, litterateurs, journalists, cultural workers, trade union leaders, teachers etc. Use of well trained women agents, offering temptations, blackmailing and threatening the ‘targets’ are ‘common tactics for ensuring their allegiance.
c. Putting pressure or luring through incentives to the desired country for entering into unequal and incompatible agreements.
d. Offering training to civilian and military officers of other countries and recruit agents from amongst them..
e. Brain washing the intellectuals of foreign countries by arranging scholarships and study tours for them.
f. Spreading cultural influence through video films, TV and radio programmes, newspapers, magazines and journals etc.
g. Promoting internal clashes and violence in the target countries through tribals, aboroginals and minority communities.
h. Developing and promoting separatist movements and to arrange shelter, money: arms and training to terrorists and separatist elements in target countries.
i. Influencing the Government, members of parliament and Government officials of other countries with a view tQ make them tilt towards India. If some one resists the influence, he is made target of intense pressure exerted through diverse means.
j. Encouraging own agents to form pressure groups and through them organise hartal, strike, seige, gherao etc. to create instability and lawlessness in target countries.
k. Spreading false, baseless and distorted news through local and international news media about the target countries to hurt their economic interests as well as . their general prestige and image.
l. Arranging assassination of important personalities including head of Government or state, if he is considered to be faltering rather excessively. This is done to bring desirable changes in the Government and officials, besides serving as warning to the others.
m. Sponsoring military coups or political agitations etc. to bring down a Government which is considered hostile.
n. Waging intense propaganda warfare to further own interests.

RAW, ever since its inception has been playing a yital role in formulation and implementation of Indian foreign policies. In consonance with Koutillaya’s precepts, RAW has been waging relentless secret wars against smaller neighbouring countries. Over the years it has worked assiduously and fulfilled its tasks skillfully and ruthlessly. Nevertheless it has many weaknesses and vulnerabilities too. A detailed knowledge about its objectives, working systems and modus operandi can help in effectively countering its menacing onslaught.

http://www.savebd.com/articles/raw-and-bangladesh/

Neel Here
June 1, 2011, 09:17 PM
RAW clueless about the elusive officer who has been screwing Pakistan

New Delhi. After Pakistan blamed terrorist activities, internal unrest, cultural degeneration, faltering economy, massive floods, and now match-fixing on the Indian intelligence agencies, RAW has been desperately trying to spot that person or group of officials within their ranks, who have been consistently screwing Pakistan on all possible fronts.

Members of the Pakistani society, establishment, military, and media have been coming up with these accusations against Indian agencies in the past few years, which has now pushed RAW to do some soul-searching.

“Well, if they have maintained this line consistently for so many years now, maybe they are right.” said K C Verma, Director, RAW, as he trawled through heap of files scanning profiles of all the official, secret and alleged members of RAW, who are working round the clock non-stop to destabilize Pakistan and screw its happiness and prosperity.
Veena Malik

Some in Pakistan believe that Veena Malik, the ex-girlfriend of Pakistani cricketer Mohammad Asif, could also be a secret RAW agent

Mr. Verma had no success even as he went through the files and profiles of hundreds of persons that included secret agents in Pakistan, whose contributions to the intelligence gathering activities were even more secret.

“Look at this guy called Abdul, whom we had sent to spy in Pakistan three years ago. He’s now nicely settled in Karachi and running a profitable business of selling pirated CDs and mobile MMS clips. Yesterday I asked him to send some updates and he sent me a clip titled veena_malik_hot_mujra.mp4! What am I supposed to do with that?” Mr. Verma flashed one of the files with anger and frustration.

With a sigh, Mr. Verma recalled that much of the Indian spy network in Pakistan was destroyed under General Zia’s regime and a covert counterintelligence team directed against Pakistan was aborted on the orders of the then Prime Minister I K Gujral in 1997.

“All that was left in Pakistan was officers like Madhuri Gupta, who were in fact spying for Pakistan!” rued Mr. Verma, adding, “But I’m really keen to know who these guys are, who have been consistently carrying out one operation after another under our name.”

“You know, it’s so much like that movie Kranti, where both Dilip Kumar and Manoj Kumar were screwing the British under the same name.” Mr. Verma thought for a while and didn’t rule out existence of a breakaway faction of RAW in Pakistan, with no official connection with the Indian agencies.

“Yes, non-state actors.” said Mr. Verma.-------------------------

replace pakistan with Bangladesh and you get a very good idea of what RAW is up to in BD.

Source: Fakingnews>> (http://www.fakingnews.com/2010/09/raw-clueless-about-the-elusive-officer-who-has-been-screwing-pakistan/)

RazabQ
June 1, 2011, 09:59 PM
Neel surely you are not naive enough to believe that RAW is totally innocent of some of things it is accused of?

HereWeGo
June 1, 2011, 10:50 PM
^^^ Razab, could you be a little specific abt your accusation against RAW? And may be provide a good source to substantiate your argument. Otherwise, baseless accusations really hold no weight and shall never change hearts and minds. :)

RazabQ
June 1, 2011, 10:51 PM
@HWG - been there done that. Just search around on BC first.

RazabQ
June 1, 2011, 10:52 PM
Also, you may note I haven't accused RAW of anything per se. I merely asked Neel if he believed RAW was totally innocent of _some_ of the charges levied against it.

Zunaid
June 1, 2011, 10:59 PM
Both RAW and ISI have meddled in Bangladesh and continue to do so. The main charges against RAW earlier used to be instigating the insurrections in the Hill Tracts. And ISI is the culprit behind the religious extremist ala Bangla Bhai et al.

The great game goes on.

RazabQ
June 1, 2011, 10:59 PM
I felt bad about not at least giving one example - sorry in a rush to go to cricket practice. Read http://defenceforumindia.com/foreign-relations/4411-india-bangladesh-relations.html#post54783 - where RAW plans to assassinate Ziaur Rahman are discussed.

HereWeGo
June 1, 2011, 10:59 PM
Also, you may note I haven't accused RAW of anything per se. I merely asked Neel if he believed RAW was totally innocent of _some_ of the charges levied against it.

Do you think DGFI's are saints
Do you think Sheikh Hasina, Sheikh Mujib, Zia etc etc...anyone as a saint
Forget them, do you think Mahatma Gandhi or Dr Yunus never made a bad decision in their life?

When you place a question like that, the answer is always NO.... :)

Zunaid
June 1, 2011, 11:01 PM
HereWeGo - not sure why you need to jump in RAW's defense. Both RAW and ISI have been meddling in Bangladesh's internal affairs for a while.

HereWeGo
June 1, 2011, 11:02 PM
I felt bad about not at least giving one example - sorry in a rush to go to cricket practice. Read http://defenceforumindia.com/foreign-relations/4411-india-bangladesh-relations.html#post54783 - where RAW plans to assassinate Ziaur Rahman are discussed.


Haha... and guess what, her widow accused Hussain Muhammad Ershad of assassinating Ziaur Rahman, not to mention Dr B. Chowdhury was also a suspect. And yet at some time or the other both those men became close to the widow.

And forum is not a good source....
:)

HereWeGo
June 1, 2011, 11:05 PM
HereWeGo - not sure why you need to jump in RAW's defense. Both RAW and ISI have been meddling in Bangladesh's internal affairs for a while.

Sorry doc...I am not denying it!!!
Its true RAW did meddle in our internal politics...... I am not impervious to that fact...

Neel Here
June 1, 2011, 11:10 PM
Neel surely you are not naive enough to believe that RAW is totally innocent of some of things it is accused of? which is what exactly?

R&AW was active till early 90's but BD was never a focus area for R&AW which has always primarily dealt with pakistan and to a much lesser extent china. the fact is it was always a very small organisation which operated as a department of the cabinet secretariat (in fact as a dept of the prime minister's office) and staffed with police officers of the national cadre on deputation. not exactly your average intel organisation is it ?
it was and remains primarily an intelligence gathering organisation, the only time it was given permission for hard action abroad was in sindh in the 80's as a tit for tat for pakistan backed operations in punjab. unlike, say CIA or mossad it does not have the permission or resources to carry out operations abroad.

most importantly, in mid 90's our peacenik prime minister IK gujral unilaterally disbanded all R&AW resources abroad as a sop to neighbours (fat load of good it did us, pakistan continued its ambition of killing Indians and most Bangladeshis have nothing but ill-will for India), a fact that is lamented about again and again by security experts that we have no covert resources to retaliate against pakistan for incidents like 26/11.
as of now, R&AW, like any other intel agency maintains a station officer under official cover at diplomatic institutions abroad, whose job is to gather open source intel from sources like newspapers etc and the occasional cocktail party chatter.
India's intel gathering primarily depends on technical intelligence, where we have good resources, not humint. the kind of things that R&AW is alleged of doing by pakistan and their mirror images in BD is impossible without humint.

little known fact : just before mujib's assasination, India had received intel that Mujib's life was under threat. R&AW's first director, RN Kao himself decided to pass on that warning to Mujib, because he was concerned that Mujib's inner circle had been penetrated. He went to dhaka under cover as a sari salesman and informed Mujib of the threat at his residence. By this time Mujib harboured a distrust of India and chose to ignore the warning. he was assassinated within the month.

now I don't expect you to believe any of this but I will tell you this, if India wanted to annex BD, the best time was in 1971, our army was already in bangladesh, our military intelligence knew the movers of MB inside out and west pakistan was on its knees (Indian army was a few KM away from lahore). if that was what we wanted there was very little anyone could have done to stop us. yes, it would have been bloody but militarily it was very much possible (I can expand on this if you want). what made it impossible was that any type of expansionist agenda was completely unacceptable to the Indian populace and Indian politicians.

again, I am pretty sure that doesn't convince you of India's generally benevolent attitude towards BD. unfortunately there is no way to convince a person who has already decided what to believe. and bangladesh' large number of people who thrive on an anti-India canard makes it difficult for even otherwise rational people to separate the BS from reality. and that comes in the way bangladesh moving forward.

I will give you an example. you were talking in the other thread about trade imbalance with India. you are absolutely right, it's an issue of major concern. but is it something that is India's fault ? we run a major trade deficit with china, is it china's fault that they produce more goods that we need at competitive prices than we do ? what is the solution, blame china or try to improve our own economy so that it can compete with china ?
take the case of India Sri Lanka trade, 10 years ago they had a trade imbalance with India that was as bad or worse than BD has (I don't remember the figures but I have posted it here before). to rectify that problem India offered Sri Lanka mutual tariff free trade and they agreed.
around the same time the FTA with SL happened, India offered BD a near identical agreement. what happened ? there was a nationwide campaign about 'eveeeel eendians out to destroy our economy' and the whole thing was dropped like a hot potato.

what's the result ? 5 years on not only has sri lanka's trade gap with India reduced to almost zero, companies from around the world are investing in sri lanka to make use of their cheap labour and favourable exchange rate with Indian currency to attack the Indian market.
and bangladesh is still crying about trade imbalance and eveel eendians.
I literally cry with frustration when I see that bangladesh is throwing away an opportunity of a lifetime because of nothing more substantial than a defensive mindset and a lack of confidence in the country !! whose fault is that ?
when companies from all over the world are stepping over each other for access to the Indian market, BD right next to it closes the door to free trade with India and refuses a FTA on favourable terms on nothing more than mindless paranoia and prejudice !!!!

coming back to the OP, I will only hope that BD doesn't go pakistan's way, where conspiracy theory is mainstream and everything bad is due to US India and Israel. even though I am a proud Indian, there is some unexplainable connection that I feel to Bangladesh and still very much want to see a Bangladesh that is confident in its abilities and all over the world will be known by its rightful name, sonar bangla.
to see BD go the pakistan way will kill a little part of me. I don't think the threat is gone yet.

coming back to your question,
"Razab Bhai, surely you are not naive enough to believe that RAW is responsible for even a % of things it is accused of? " :D

HereWeGo
June 1, 2011, 11:13 PM
Haha... and guess what, her widow accused Hussain Muhammad Ershad of assassinating Ziaur Rahman, not to mention Dr B. Chowdhury was also a suspect. And yet at some time or the other both those men became close to the widow.

And forum is not a good source....
:)

My bad!!!
it does provide sources on the next post!!!

Neel Here
June 1, 2011, 11:17 PM
I felt bad about not at least giving one example - sorry in a rush to go to cricket practice. Read http://defenceforumindia.com/foreign-relations/4411-india-bangladesh-relations.html#post54783 - where RAW plans to assassinate Ziaur Rahman are discussed.

please don't say you just posted a post in a teenage forum which quotes something thought up by one rifat ul ahsan as an example !! :floor:

Both RAW and ISI have meddled in Bangladesh and continue to do so. The main charges against RAW earlier used to be instigating the insurrections in the Hill Tracts. And ISI is the culprit behind the religious extremist ala Bangla Bhai et al.

The great game goes on.
it's a game two can play. BD similarly supported a plethora of insurgent groups in NE with active help from ISI. which started right after mujib was assassinated.
can you really blame R&AW unilaterally for a tit for tat ?

Zunaid
June 1, 2011, 11:19 PM
My bad!!!
it does provide sources on the next post!!!

Yeah but one of the reference cited is: RAW and Bangladesh :: Final ::by Mohammad Zainal Abedin

Will never pass peer review. That's the problem with forums like these and online "discussions", many people hold opinions based on unsubstantiated assertions but cite other unsubstantiated assertions to provide credibility.

The best way to realize the truth is to read a wide variety of sources and learn to recognize those of provenance.

Zunaid
June 1, 2011, 11:21 PM
please don't say you just posted a post in a teenage forum which quotes something thought up by one rifat ul ahsan as an example !! :floor:


it's a game two can play. BD similarly supported a plethora of insurgent groups in NE with active help from ISI. which started right after mujib was assassinated.
can you really blame R&AW unilaterally for a tit for tat ?

But who titted first? BD didn't tat. Why do we have to see mutual relationships in terms of tits and tats?

Neel Here
June 1, 2011, 11:36 PM
are you sure on who 'titted' first ?
post mujib BD govts were virulently anti-Indian (and anti hindu for that matter, 100's of families fled BD in 70's and 80's to escape the life of a 2nd class citizen. many of whom I know personally) I am sure I don't have to remind you how enemy properties act was misused to deprive many minority families of their land and belongings, to give but one example.
in CHT, there was a demographic aggression going on against the tribal people, a point no one but the most blindly patriotic would refuse to admit. if India's help to MB was justifiable, the help to these people was also justifiable on humanitarian grounds.

more importantly, all that ended in the 80's, India has not supported any such group since those days. BD however continued to harbour and support the functionaries of dozens of anti-India groups. there was no reprisal by India because govt had already decided against such moves in spite of the quite grave provocation.
Why do we have to see mutual relationships in terms of tits and tats? we don't. it's anyway a matter of the past. but it's not something that can be done unilaterally. I believe India has long crossed half way and waiting to meet BD there.

PoorFan
June 1, 2011, 11:50 PM
I dont see a single word named Bangladesh in that report! - finance, environment, articles with so called never-heard-anywhere research etc., in that link shows clear pattern. To me its a promotion of that propaganda tool using Banglacricke. That link and the kind of Ultra-genius-never-heard-historians always fail to recognize that those millions who made their own choice, took up arms, and fought, and sacrificed were never confused as these people are, nor as dumb as they intend to demean.

Ultra genius as well as confused people were in numbers back then, and now even growing in free-land, ironically off that huge unquestionable sacrifice. These people and their intention, activity IMO needs to be detect and studied.

I rather wish to see these kind of threads get strictly restricted.


The unofficial line to our history which needs to be explored and studied in my opinion:

RAW and Bangladesh

Zunaid
June 1, 2011, 11:50 PM
I believe India has long crossed half way and waiting to meet BD there.

This is where we will have to respectfully disagree. You being Indian hold that view and we hold the reverse. Your world view is different than mine.

There is a whole laundry list of issues that cloud the bilateral relationship between the two countries where it was incumbent upon India to make the right move, from Talpattia and other enclaves, from Farakka and Teesta barrages, from the Tipaimukh dams, support for destabilizers lile Kader bahini et al, much could have been done to show the hand of friendship like in 1971. According to Janes' (need to find the copy of the exact issue for reference), the first stone that was cast in the insurgency/counter insurgency game happened right then as Bangladesh switched over into the other orbit. Charan Singh was the culprit at that time.

When Morarji Desai and the Janata Party came to power in 1977, there was a brief honeymoon between Bangladesh and India and some of the contentious issues were tried to be resolved between his government and Zia's. That is why we did have the tin-bigha corridor agreement but that took another decade before India actually ratified it.

Neel - it is not all black and white. I understand that being Indian you do need to stand up for your country. But there are shades of gray that you must realize and try a different pair of glasses - not colored by your nationality. And I also urge Bangladeshis to do the same. For example, there is no point in pretending we didn't help ULFA at avrious points in time.

Zunaid
June 1, 2011, 11:56 PM
I dont see a single word named Bangladesh in that report! - finance, environment, articles with so called never-heard-anywhere research etc., in that link shows clear pattern. To me its a promotion of that propaganda tool using Banglacricke. That link and the kind of Ultra-genius-never-heard-historians always fail to recognize that those millions who made their own choice, took up arms, and fought, and sacrificed were never confused as these people are, nor as dumb as they intend to demean.

Ultra genius as well as confused people were in numbers back then, and now even growing in free-land, ironically off that huge unquestionable sacrifice. These people and their intention, activity IMO needs to be detect and studied.

I rather wish to see these kind of threads get strictly restricted.



I agree with most except for the restriction part. Nothing hateful - yet. And the subsequent discussion might be informative for some.

Neel Here
June 1, 2011, 11:59 PM
Dr Z, I have clearly admitted a number of the grey areas and added some more that people are not aware of. surely that tells you that I am not exactly wearing tricolour glasses.
I am a little undecided on farakka because I never saw a really objective factual report, with the data about seasonal flows, agreement etc that would help make up my mind. all I saw was the usual propaganda piece. would be grateful if you point out a few such articles.
most if not all of the other issues you raise too can be countered. btw, you didn't respond to my comments about trade.

off topic. I am still bummed that you warned me for responding to a guy who personally attacked me.

Zunaid
June 2, 2011, 12:09 AM
Dr Z, I have clearly admitted a number of the grey areas and added some more that people are not aware of. surely that tells you that I am not exactly wearing tricolour glasses.
I am a little undecided on farakka because I never saw a really objective factual report, with the data about seasonal flows, agreement etc that would help make up my mind. all I saw was the usual propaganda piece. would be grateful if you point out a few such articles.
most if not all of the other issues you raise too can be countered. btw, you didn't respond to my comments about trade.


Here is an old one. http://www.lhup.edu/mkhalequ/Research/FARAKKA.pdf

The reason I give you this is because I have read it myself and I know the author. We were in grad school around the same time and he is now a professor at a college in the US. Follow the references too. I won't ask you to change your mind but keep an open one.

A simple search on Google Scholar will give you tons of peer reviewed articles.


off topic. I am still bummed that you warned me for responding to a guy who personally attacked me.

I wasn't going to respond to this one but I felt this is a teachable instant. We urge everyone not to react to provocations and to report it to the mods. In one's reaction one often stoops to the same level as the provocateur. And one usually makes it worse.

We, as mods and admins, have to be fair and yield the enforce the rules as we see fit. The provocateur may have faced the ban hammer and you, young man, got a private warning. It is NOT my problem that obhiman kore BC koeckdin tyack korle and are still bummed about it. Get over it.

Zeeshan
June 2, 2011, 12:17 AM
Boss er mejaj bigrale Neel bhai ke Ghrina Mel gulo pathaben apnara shobai.... :-|

Neel Here
June 2, 2011, 12:25 AM
joto dosh nondo ghosh, naki ?

p.s reports are often ignored.

Jadukor
June 2, 2011, 02:48 AM
apologies in advance for my 'general' rambling...

The whole border skirmish and "strong meddling in the affairs of the weak" concept is quite old news don't you think? In international news you would see frequently stories of mexicans getting killed in the american border, cambodians getting killed in thai border.

Global super powers meddle in internal affairs of other countries globally... the regional super powers do it regionally. Frankly I don't see a difference between policies of U.S, China, India, Russia etc. If you ask all the neigbors of the countries i mentioned they would all cite their grievances about unfair treatment.

My point is, we should also build partnerships that serves our own self interest. At the heart of it all we must think what is the best way forward that will benefit our nation. The parameters of partnerships should not be based on who is Hindu or Muslim or which political party is in power. It should not also be for the personal or political gain of the leadership. The parameters should only be related to environmentally sustainable economic growth that can be achieved via the relationship with neighbors.

The world is not fair it never was. Our own history tells us so. Every country acts in its own self interest and try to expand its sphere of influence. It is how regional politics work. We cannot simply hope that politians of regional super powers like India and China would wake up one night all sweaty and think to themselves we must be fair to smaller economies from now on. At a time when resources are becoming more and more scarce we will see the uglier sides of our neighbors more and more. For us its more about strategically aligning with these regional superpowers, produce goods that complement those markets and try grow at a consistent rate alongside our rich and powerful neighbors.

Spy agencies carrying out the dirty work on behalf of governments is not something new either. We accuse RAW of supporting hill tract guerillas... they accuse us of supporting ULFA... we blame ISI of supporting terrorist groups within bd... i am sure Pakis have some complain about us too... doesn't matter if its KGB, CIA, MOSAD, MSS... they all have their skeletons in the closet

Neel Here
June 2, 2011, 06:47 AM
Here is an old one. http://www.lhup.edu/mkhalequ/Research/FARAKKA.pdf
it really is, because the link doesn't seem to work. is it possible to upload it someplace like rapidshare ?

90% of the time google scholar does not have the full article, only abstracts.

Zunaid
June 2, 2011, 07:05 AM
it really is, because the link doesn't seem to work. is it possible to upload it someplace like rapidshare ?

90% of the time google scholar does not have the full article, only abstracts.

I will have to ask Khaleque bhai for permission. Even bettter, I'll ask him for a definitive set of scholarly articles and will post them on BC. I will also get in touch with Ainun Nishar Sir over at NSU - he taught Water Resources Engineering when I was in BUET in the 80s and I think he is the VC at NSU now. He is a world reknowned expert in water and riparian issues.
<br />Posted via BC Mobile Edition

Neel Here
June 2, 2011, 07:34 AM
that would be fantastic ! I would be grateful if you can get hold of similar articles on tipaimukh as well.

Tintin
June 2, 2011, 08:33 AM
it really is, because the link doesn't seem to work. is it possible to upload it someplace like rapidshare ?

90% of the time google scholar does not have the full article, only abstracts.

That works for me.

What about http://www.lhup.edu/mkhalequ/khaleq-homepage/FARAKKA.doc ?

Beamer
June 2, 2011, 11:34 AM
ki je shuru korsen apnara with RAW and ISI. Kam kaj nai naki karo ? I think we as a nation need to bark less and bite more. How do we do that? Improve our basic needs and infrastructures : Health care, Education, Economy, Standard of living, Power, Rule of Law..etc..If we can work towards achieving those goals for our own self determination, we will have less time thinking about external spy networks and get into fisticuffs here at BC. A strong economically viable democratic nation has little existential threat in this new world.

Off topic : RAW spelled backwards is WAR, whereas, ISI spelled backwards is still ISI..Freaking morons can't even use deception properly. And, how about our SB ( Special Branch ) spelled backwards?? Ha ha..

Everyone take it easy. Nobody is out to get us. Only weak scared people jump at their own shadow. There are foreign elements in every country of the world doing their govt's work. It is to be expected. But, to keep it at a minimum, you need to make sure that your country doesn't become an Yemen or Afghanistan or Pakistan. Only we can prevent that.

Beamer
June 2, 2011, 11:42 AM
BCF bhai..

This Zainal Abedin ( writer of your article ), as some cynics say, draws his paycheck from ISI. Just wanted to throw it out there. I have read some of his articles from time to time, and needless to say, I am inclined to believe that allegation.

Neel Here
June 2, 2011, 07:21 PM
That works for me.

What about http://www.lhup.edu/mkhalequ/khaleq-homepage/FARAKKA.doc ?

still doesn't work. could you upload it somewhere please ? thanks.

ki je shuru korsen apnara with RAW and ISI. Kam kaj nai naki karo ? I think we as a nation need to bark less and bite more. How do we do that? Improve our basic needs and infrastructures : Health care, Education, Economy, Standard of living, Power, Rule of Law..etc..If we can work towards achieving those goals for our own self determination, we will have less time thinking about external spy networks and get into fisticuffs here at BC. A strong economically viable democratic nation has little existential threat in this new world.

Off topic : RAW spelled backwards is WAR, whereas, ISI spelled backwards is still ISI..Freaking morons can't even use deception properly. And, how about our SB ( Special Branch ) spelled backwards?? Ha ha..

Everyone take it easy. Nobody is out to get us. Only weak scared people jump at their own shadow. There are foreign elements in every country of the world doing their govt's work. It is to be expected. But, to keep it at a minimum, you need to make sure that your country doesn't become an Yemen or Afghanistan or Pakistan. Only we can prevent that.

:up: THIS ! post of the thread.

BanCricFan
June 3, 2011, 05:37 AM
BCF bhai..

This Zainal Abedin ( writer of your article ), as some cynics say, draws his paycheck from ISI. Just wanted to throw it out there. I have read some of his articles from time to time, and needless to say, I am inclined to believe that allegation.

Nothing is beyond the realm of possibility. But until your claim/accusation is proved beyond any doubt we must assume him to be upright and innocent. Specially, a freedom fighter should deserve our benifit of doubts. Additionally, perhaps, we ought to be more concerned about the message and not the messenger.

"Off topic : RAW spelled backwards is WAR, whereas, ISI spelled backwards is still ISI..Freaking morons can't even use deception properly. And, how about our SB ( Special Branch ) spelled backwards?? Ha ha.." :lol:

PoorFan
June 5, 2011, 10:26 PM
4 June 2011 Last updated at 00:02 GMT
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<SCRIPT type=text/javascript> <!--$render("page-bookmark-links","page-bookmark-links-head",{ useForgeShareTools:"true", position:"top", site:'News', headline:'BBC News - Can anyone control Pakistan\'s ISI spies?', storyId:'13638478', sectionId:'99126', url:'http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13638478', edition:'International'}); --></SCRIPT>Can anyone control Pakistan's ISI spies?

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/53100000/jpg/_53100172_012118939-1.jpg Protests against the killing have taken place all over the country
Continue reading the main story (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13638478#story_continues_1) Related Stories


Pakistan ISI denies murder claims (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13612101)
Shahzad flirted with danger (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13608971)
Pakistan's shadowy secret service, the ISI (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13272009)
Pakistan's dreaded spy agency, the ISI, is back in the spotlight, accused of murdering journalist Saleem Shahzad. The agency's engagement with the media has become progressively more virulent as the "war on terror" has progressed. BBC Urdu editor Aamer Ahmed Khan asks whether anyone can bring the ISI under control.
ISI officials deny involvement in the murder of Saleem Shahzad. One said there is nothing sinister about their reported contacts with him. The agency, the official said, is mandated to remain in contact with journalists "for provision of accurate information on matters of national security".
But he would be hard pressed to find a Pakistani journalist willing to buy that - unless we agree that "sinister" is a matter of perspective.
I once received a phone call reminding me what a lovely family I had after I published a story for The Herald magazine on ISI-Taliban links. It had clearly upset someone at the ISI.
A panicked phone call home established all was well - and a few more calls to the relevant people from my powerful publisher ensured that the man who introduced himself as Col Tariq never called again.
But there was a catch - I had to go to the ISI's heavily fortified headquarters in Islamabad and meet the "internal security" people there. I could not shake off a creepy feeling that someone in the building had ordered that my family be monitored and watched.
Continue reading the main story (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13638478#story_continues_2) “Start Quote
It was only when officials stopped answering our calls that we realised it must have been the work of the ISI”
End Quote
Shot in the head
Spend an evening in any press club in the country and you are likely to walk away with stories that will sit comfortably in the pages of an underworld chronicle.
Tales of journalists who were made to write suicide notes for reporting on the suspected presence of India's most wanted man in Karachi. Accounts of correspondents who became hit-and-run victims after reporting on the agency's involvement in electoral malpractice.
I still remember the time when our tribal areas correspondent was picked up by the ISI and only released after being severely tortured for more than 36 hours.
Within the first few hours, we had made contact with every government official we knew, from the local police officer to the interior minister.
And it was only when they stopped answering our calls that we realised it must have been the work of bhai loag or "brothers", as ISI officials are commonly referred to.
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/53090000/jpg/_53090644_012115542-1.jpg Saleem Shahzad had complained of ISI threats
In between, I received a call from a journalist I knew was in close contact with the ISI. He told me that a dead body fitting my correspondent's description had been taken to a hospital in the garrison city of Rawalpindi and that we had better check it out.
It took me 40 minutes to drive to the hospital, 40 of the most difficult minutes of my life as a journalist. When I saw the dead body, I could have hugged it.
I was so relieved that it wasn't my colleague. And when he was released the next evening, I found myself saying a silent thank you to his tormentors for letting him live.
Then there were the three bizarre days I spent in North Waziristan in July 2006 after a 30-year-old tribal journalist, Hayatullah, was killed.
He had been abducted from outside a local college, held for six months, then shot in the head and dumped by the roadside.
What struck me about that incident was that everyone in the area seemed to know the exact identity of his kidnappers.
Some even mentioned a name, supposedly an ISI major who, it was said, would often call Hayatullah's family and tell them that he had not yet made up his mind whether to release him or kill him.
ISI immunity
It is not without reason that Saleem Shahzad's death has immediately led to allegations against the ISI. The entire journalist community in Pakistan knows how closely the agency monitors media and journalists.
They also know how immensely powerful it is, the extent of the immunity it enjoys and the fact that journalists are only a small part of its overarching remit.
Nearly 200 political activists have been abducted, tortured and killed in the troubled province of Balochistan over the past two years merely for demanding their political rights.
Their families are almost unanimous in their opinion that the ISI is involved. Yet the killings continue unabated.
Even the Supreme Court has tried to intervene to recover some of those kidnapped - but to no avail. It has merely come to be known as the case of the missing people.
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/53231000/jpg/_53231475_45063930.jpg ISI chief Gen Pasha's offer to resign over Bin Laden was declined
Former ISI officials proudly recount tales of how they engineered political alliances and brought down elected governments to "protect the national interest".
Yet after every general election, politicians from all political parties make a beeline for the ISI headquarters in the hope of securing a place in the cabinet.
The present government made a feeble attempt last year to bring the ISI under the control of the interior ministry.
But the agency reacted so sharply that the notification was withdrawn within hours. Since then, it has been business as usual.
In the aftermath of Bin Laden's killing, the current ISI chief, Gen Shuja Pasha, offered to resign after publicly admitting a complete intelligence failure. His offer was politely declined not just by the army chief but also by the entire parliament.
Still, there are some incorrigible optimists who believe that Saleem Shahzad's death can change all this. They point to the growing public criticism of the agency, fuelled by a steadily rising anger within a very dynamic media at its total lack of accountability.
One of Pakistan's most influential and respected publishers, Hameed Haroon, told the BBC that the situation had reached breaking point. "This has to end," he fumed. "They cannot treat our journalists, our intellectual assets like this."
The question is, who is going to end it?

BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13638478)

BanCricFan
June 7, 2011, 04:11 PM
I cant really see the relevance of the above post with this particular thread. Perhaps, we should start to post the "exploits" of KGB, CIA or MI5 here, too?

Banglatiger84
June 8, 2011, 12:15 AM
I cant really see the relevance of the above post with this particular thread. Perhaps, we should start to post the "exploits" of KGB, CIA or MI5 here, too?

Just to show how ruthless ISI can be......

And in any discussion of RAW's effect on Bangladesh, there is a good chance that ISI (or CIA) will come up, as those 3 agencies have more influence in Bangladesh compared to KGB

PoorFan
June 8, 2011, 12:57 AM
Just to show how ruthless ISI can be......

Clueless and cruel I would say.

And in any discussion of RAW's effect on Bangladesh, there is a good chance that ISI (or CIA) will come up, as those 3 agencies have more influence in Bangladesh compared to KGB
Internally, as well as globally recognized threat unlike other 'neighbor' agency on OP ... is another relevance I thought.

auntu
June 8, 2011, 11:00 AM
I read a book on RAW's involvement in Bangladesh written by Major General (Rtd.) Abdul Matin, former DG, DGFI and former adviser to the last Caretaker government. He was the DG of DGFI at the time of General Nasim's failed coup in 1996.

It was a very good book with loads of facts. I forgot the name of the book. Let me get it and I would try to post it.

Neel Here
June 8, 2011, 02:37 PM
speaking of R&AW, this what Lt Gen JFR Jacob has to say about its contribution to the 1971 war. Jacob does not have any praise for the Research and Analysis Wing because “We got very little hard intelligence... and they actually provided us with just two half sheets of data during the entire period (of the war)”

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1110520/jsp/opinion/story_13997756.jsp

to those who are unaware, he was chief of staff of Indian Army eastern command during the liberation war and instrumental in formulating tactics that led to the rapid capitulation of pakistan army in erstwhile east pakistan. he also happens to be a jew. (insert tinfoil hat conspiracy theory here :D )