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View Full Version : Ramadan 2011: New Moon at 18:40 GMT July 30, 2011


Nasif
July 30, 2011, 08:58 AM
New Moon will be starting in few hours from now at 18:40 GMT Saturday, July 30; i.e. 2:40pm Eastern time USA; Bangladesh time 1:40am Sunday. (2011 Phases of Moon from US Naval Observatory (http://aa.usno.navy.mil/cgi-bin/aa_moonphases.pl?year=2011&ZZZ=END))

1st fasting day in USA: Sunday July 31.
1st fasting day in UK & Most of Europe: July 31
1st fasting day in Bangladesh Monday Aug 1.

If you are confused about this calculation, study what is new moon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_phase) and why you can never see it! Yet, prehistoric muslims around the world will fix their eyes on sky to see "new moon".

Crescent is there every moment after the new moon event, and it always will be on the day-side of the earth. As such, it's never visible at the onset and only becomes visible after considerable time has passed from the new moon event. If you are confused, study earth moon orientation and lunar phases: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_phase

Every Ramadan is a reminder how regressive muslims have become. Even after 40 years from lunar landing, muslims still can't find the moon and say when Ramadan will start!

God has given the Sun and the Moon for precise calculation, not for whimsical sighting decisions.

Quran Chapater 6, Verse 96: (http://www.quranix.net/?RTQ=1&TMG=1&MA=1&RK=1&SH=1&TE=1&A=1&L=en&NA=10&S=6&SA=96)
فَالِقُ الإِصْبَاحِ وَجَعَلَ اللَّيْلَ سَكَنًا وَالشَّمْسَ وَالْقَمَرَ حُسْبَانًا ذَلِكَ تَقْدِيرُ الْعَزِيزِ الْعَلِيمِ
Literal Translation: Splitter (of) the morning/day break and He made the night tranquillity/security/residence and the sun and the moon counting/calculating, that (is) predestination (of) the glorious/mighty , the knowledgeable.
Translation: Initiator of morning. He made the night to reside in, and the sun and the moon as a calculation device. Such is the measure of the Noble, the Knowledgeable.

Chapter 10, Verse 5 (http://www.quranix.net/?RTQ=1&TMG=1&MA=1&RK=1&SH=1&TE=1&A=1&L=en&NA=10&S=6&SA=96):
هُوَ الَّذِي جَعَلَ الشَّمْسَ ضِيَاءً وَالْقَمَرَ نُورًا وَقَدَّرَهُ مَنَازِلَ لِتَعْلَمُوا عَدَدَ السِّنِينَ وَالْحِسَابَ مَا خَلَقَ اللَّهُ ذَلِكَ إِلا بِالْحَقِّ يُفَصِّلُ الآيَاتِ لِقَوْمٍ يَعْلَمُونَ
Literal Translation: He is who made/put the sun light/shining and the moon a light, and He predestined/evaluated it places of descent/sequences/descents to know (the) number/numerous (of) the years and the counting/calculating, God did not create that except with the truth , He details/explains the verses/evidences to a nation knowing.
Translation: He is the One who rendered the sun radiant, and the moon a light, and He designed its phases that you may learn to count the years and to calculate. GOD did not create all this, except for a specific purpose. He explains the revelations for people who know.
Have a blessed Ramadan 2011.

Rabz
July 30, 2011, 09:25 AM
Ramadan in Bangladesh is supposed to start from 2nd of August.

Banglaguy
July 30, 2011, 09:26 AM
^^ It can never be decided until the new moon is sighted, so when they say a month prior it starts this or that date, it is a estimate following previous patterns.

Nasif
July 30, 2011, 09:40 AM
^^ It can never be decided until the new moon is sighted, so when they say a month prior it starts this or that date, it is a estimate following previous patterns.

New moon can never be sighted. Read my post above.

Nasif
July 30, 2011, 09:42 AM
Ramadan in Bangladesh is supposed to start from 2nd of August.

By then you will have missed 1 day from the actual start. "[বাংলা]চাঁদ দেখা কমিটি![/বাংলা]" What a wonderful name :)

Banglaguy
July 30, 2011, 09:42 AM
^^ You know what I mean that the predictions that it would be august the 2nd for BD is just a prediction.

BanCricFan
July 30, 2011, 03:06 PM
"Do not fast until you see the crescent-moon, and do not break the fast until you have seen the crescent moon, but if conditions are overcast for you then enumerate for it."

By the consensus of the Four Schools of Jurisprudence the actual [B]sighting of the new-moon by a sane and just muslim is the prerequsite of the fast of Ramadan. If we follow the constract of the above Hadith we see that Sighting (ruiyyah) or seeing has been mentioned first and enumeration last and, also, conditional. Furthermore, the above Hadith has been clarified by another prophetic tradition related by Imam Bukhari and other Hadith scholars, "Then complete the number of [days of] Sha`ban as thirty." This hadith clarifies what is meant by "enumerate" in the first narration is to count thirty days, for the first narration is general (mujmal), whereas the second is explicit (mubayyan), clarifying the ambiguity in the first. And, according to all 'usooli scholars mubayyan governs the mujmal.

Shaykh Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri in his famous 'umdat as-saalik has stated "If a person knows by calculations of lunar movements or the position of the stars that the next day is Ramadan, fasting is nevertheless not obligatory, though it is permissible for him alone". The advancement in astronomy or science should not be seen as an end but as a mean to facilitate our understanding. Also, a saying of Sayyidina 'Umar (radi Allahu 'unhu) might be appropriate, " If the deen was entirely based on reason then we would have wiped under the leather socks (khuffain) as opposed to on the top".

Lastly, we shouldn't resort to name calling of other muslims with whom we might have FIQHI difference of opinions. Thats not the way of the muslims. We have always accommodated and respected ikhtilaf or deffering scholarly opinions. Thats why we have more than one School of Thought. Its an wonderful blessing.

BanCricFan
July 30, 2011, 03:28 PM
<EMBED height=390 type=application/x-shockwave-flash width=640 src=http://www.youtube.com/v/OWnU9aJ0w5Y?version=3 allowScriptAccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"> (http://<object style="height: 390px; width: 640px"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/OWnU9aJ0w5Y?version=3"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/OWnU9aJ0w5Y?version=3" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="390"></object>)

Nasif
July 30, 2011, 04:05 PM
"Do not fast until you see the crescent-moon, and do not break the fast until you have seen the crescent moon, but if conditions are overcast for you then enumerate for it." [Bukhari]

Its not Bukhari's religion. God orders you to use Sun and Moon for calculation. Bukhari tells you to scratch your head and look up at the sky to find the moon. Who do you listen to?

Zeeshan
July 30, 2011, 04:46 PM
Lastly, we shouldn't resort to name calling of other muslims with whom we might have FIQHI difference of opinions. Thats not the way of the muslims. We have always accommodated and respected ikhtilaf or deffering scholarly opinions. Thats why we have more than one School of Thought. Its an wonderful blessing.

I think you are reading too much into the "chaad dekha comity" joke. :)

Best wishes for Ramadan.

BD_2015
July 30, 2011, 04:56 PM
Its not Bukhari's religion. God orders you to use Sun and Moon for calculation. Bukhari tells you to scratch your head and look up at the sky to find the moon. Who do you listen to?

Islam is based on Quran and Hadith (saying of prophet SAW ). If something isn't clearly indicated in Quran than Scholers of Islam looked for it in Hadith and so on so.
Amongs all the Hadith books Sahih Bukhari is the most authentic and Bukhari isn't word of Imam Bukhari.It's the word prophet (Saw).
First we need to know who is Imam Bukhari (rahimahullah) and how he compiled Sahih Bukhari.
Back on the topic : We should respect those Scholers who came before us and should agree that they understood Islam better than we do now.Our knowledge regarding Islam is nothing compare to their vast Ilm.Yes there is nothing wrong in Islam regarding Ikhtilaf ( Scholarly opinions) when time and situation changes.

Ramadan Mubarak to all

BanCricFan
July 30, 2011, 06:01 PM
Its not Bukhari's religion. God orders you to use Sun and Moon for calculation. Bukhari tells you to scratch your head and look up at the sky to find the moon. Who do you listen to?

I'm sorry to say but this is one of the most absurd posts I have come across. Yes, this is not Imam Bukhari's religion nor is this his saying. If you would just put the ego in check for a sec, you will find the Imam is actually relating a saying of the prophet of Islam. You know -the Prophet you have been commanded to obey by your Creator. And, this is just not an whimsical opinion of Imam Bukhari but multiple of Hadith scholars have narrated this. This is also the opinion of hundreds of Mujtahid scholars.

The Qur'anic verses you have quoted has no explicit connection with the sighting of the moon. Please look up the context of their revelations - if you dont believe me. Rather than arrogantly declaring when the Muslims should fast or not fast based on your wikipedic understanding of astronomy wouldn't it be more appropriate to refer this matter to its more rightful authorities i.e the qualified Islamic scholars? You seriously expect us not to follow Imam Bukhari et al but YOU? Do you even know who Imam Bukhari is? If you did you wouldn't have made such disparaging comment.

If you disagree with my understanding then provide evidence from Qur'an, Sunnah and the 'Ulama (scholars) whom are heir to the prophets. Please, no Wiki. Please dont adopt the way of those who accept only those part of the scripture which is in agreement with their desire and whims. Obey Allah, the Messenger and those who are over you (uli al-amr). Ulama are over you. Of course, unless you're a Mujtahid Imam.

This Deen is not preserved by little boys but Rijaal (Great Men) like Imam Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Hanifah, Malik, Shafi'e, Ahmed, Awjawi, Ibn Rushd, Ibn Khaldun, Al Ghazali, Razi, Nawawi, Suyuti, Sharakhshi, Dhahabi, et al. Many of them were polymaths. Lets humble ourself a little bit!


I'm sorry If I have come across a little too harsh but needed to be said as muslims nowadays are losing all perspective and modesty. Ramadan Mubaarak all the same.

BanCricFan
July 30, 2011, 06:07 PM
I think you are reading too much into the "chaad dekha comity" joke. :)

Best wishes for Ramadan.

Wrong. Its the "prehistoric" joke that got me. :)

BanCricFan
July 30, 2011, 06:09 PM
<EMBED height=390 type=application/x-shockwave-flash width=640 src=http://www.youtube.com/v/FeItA_44Rgk?version=3 allowScriptAccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"> (http://<object style="height: 390px; width: 640px"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/FeItA_44Rgk?version=3"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/FeItA_44Rgk?version=3" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="390"></object>)

Rifat
July 30, 2011, 07:24 PM
:sigh: deja vu :)

Zunaid
July 30, 2011, 07:32 PM
And so we forget the true spirit of the occasion and resort to gibes about little men and endless arguments about lunar sightings. Shame.

MohammedC
July 30, 2011, 07:48 PM
Moon sighting: Something I have not experienced for nearly 21 years.........Cant wait any longer.

BanCricFan
July 30, 2011, 08:48 PM
And so we forget the true spirit of the occasion and resort to gibes about little men and endless arguments about lunar sightings. Shame.


And, many thanks for your effort towards the restoration of "true spirit" while fanning the flame, Doc!

The tone and the ego of that post irked me. Honestly, I didn't expect such simplistic, de-contextualised and immodest reply from such a seasoned poster and senior memeber like Nasif bhai. And, Its not just about lunar sighting, its about Fiqhi principles. Endless "arguments" are not inherently bad as long as the participants follow some civil and professional codes. But, anyway, thanks for the reminder about the true spirit of the occasion.

Rifat
July 30, 2011, 08:54 PM
I am one Proud Prehistoric muslim Alhamdulillah! I prefer the siwaak over the toothpaste/toothbrush, anyday! I also prefer the word Allah over the word God. :D


what other people think of me, I don't give anything about it. what Allah thinks of me, I care(At least make an attempt to care)

Zunaid
July 30, 2011, 09:46 PM
And, many thanks for your effort towards the restoration of "true spirit" while fanning the flame, Doc!


Fanning the flame or a much needed reminder about the need for civility. Consider this - would the import of your statement have been any diminished had you eschewed from the use of the snide and insulting "little boys" comment?


The tone and the ego of that post irked me. Honestly, I didn't expect such simplistic, de-contextualised and immodest reply from such a seasoned poster and senior memeber like Nasif bhai. And, Its not just about lunar sighting, its about Fiqhi principles. Endless "arguments" are not inherently bad as long as the participants follow some civil and professional codes. But, anyway, thanks for the reminder about the true spirit of the occasion.

I personally have no skin in this discussion but if you were irked by Nasif's post and felt it to be "immodest", your riposte was also a tad bit immodest.

That is all I will say on this.

- As myself

Electrequiem
July 30, 2011, 09:58 PM
It's the year 2242. Men have colonized the moon.

The Muslims there, however, have stopped fasting during Ramadan - they didn't know when to start since they can never actually see the moon.

Nasif
July 30, 2011, 10:01 PM
I'm sorry to say but this is one of the most absurd posts I have come across. Yes, this is not Imam Bukhari's religion nor is this his saying. If you would just put the ego in check for a sec, you will find the Imam is actually relating a saying of the prophet of Islam. You know -the Prophet you have been commanded to obey by your Creator. And, this is just not an whimsical opinion of Imam Bukhari but multiple of Hadith scholars have narrated this. This is also the opinion of hundreds of Mujtahid scholars.

It was supposed to be as absurd as the logic of "new moon sighting". If you have met me you would have known my ego is as high as sea level. Don't take my strong logical arguments as sign of ego. I don't like long posts, but this, unfortunately, is going to be a long one. :)

I know the so called "authentic" hadith is supposed to be Muhammad's words. Unfortunately, the fallacy of such a statement is obvious in Quran's prophetic arguments.

God calls Quran the best Hadith and forbids anything else. Quran, by definition, is Hadith as it came out of Muhammad's mouth. It truly is collection of Muhammad's utterances. It is the only Hadith authorized by God for your religious need.

Note God's prophetic warnings & challenges on fabricated hadiths in following verses:


Quran: 77:50 (http://www.quranix.net/?RTQ=1&TMG=1&MA=1&RK=1&SH=1&TE=1&A=1&L=en&NA=10&S=77&SA=50)
فَبِأَيِّ حَدِيثٍ بَعْدَهُ يُؤْمِنُونَ
Fabi-ayyi hadeethin baAAdahuyu/minoona
In what Hadith, after this, will they believe?

Quran 39:23 (http://www.quranix.net/?keywords=39%3A23)
...اللَّهُ نَـزَّلَ أَحْسَنَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتَابًا مُتَشَابِهًا
Allahu nazzala ahsana alhadeethikitaban mutashabihan....
GOD has revealed herein the best Hadith; a book that is consistent...

Quran: 45:6-7 (http://www.quranix.net/?RTQ=1&TMG=1&MA=1&RK=1&SH=1&TE=1&A=1&L=en&NA=10&S=45&SA=6)
...تِلْكَ آيَاتُ اللَّهِ نَتْلُوهَا عَلَيْكَ بِالْحَقِّ فَبِأَيِّ حَدِيثٍ بَعْدَ اللَّهِ وَآيَاتِهِ يُؤْمِنُونَ
Tilka ayatu Allahinatlooha AAalayka bialhaqqi fabi-ayyi hadeethinbaAAda Allahi waayatihi yu/minoona...
These are GOD's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe? Woe to every sinful fabricator.
There are more, if interested check these: 7:185 (http://www.quranix.net/?RTQ=1&TMG=1&MA=1&RK=1&SH=1&TE=1&A=1&L=en&NA=10&S=7&SA=185), 12:111 (http://www.quranix.net/?RTQ=1&TMG=1&MA=1&RK=1&SH=1&TE=1&A=1&L=en&NA=10&S=12&SA=111), and 31:6 (http://www.quranix.net/?RTQ=1&TMG=1&MA=1&RK=1&SH=1&TE=1&A=1&L=en&NA=10&S=31&SA=6) .

After all these statements against Hadith other than Quran, Bukhari still ends up calling his book "Hadith". Thus fulfilling Quran's prophetic warnings.

God wasn't waiting 250 years after prophet's death for Mr. Bukhari from Uzbekistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Bukhari) to compile and write the so called hadith books to complete God's religion.

We live in the age of information, unfortunately Muslims en-mass have sold their intellect and God's order to use their brain as ordered in 17:36 (http://www.quranix.net/?RTQ=1&TMG=1&MA=1&RK=1&SH=1&TE=1&A=1&L=en&NA=10&S=17&SA=36). As such, we are ones that are the most corrupt, illiterate and unjust all over the world. You will not find a single so called "muslim" country that holds to God's system of freedom of expression and religion.

Corrupt hadiths and lies attributed to prophet has made a progressive and enlightened religion into the most regressive.

The topic of this thread is just another reminder of this tragedy. After 14 centuries, we haven't taken to precise calculation of lunar month. Even though God explicitly mentions that the sun and the moon is for calculation; we can't bring ourselves to believe in God's word. Excuse: "12 centuries ago Bukhari's hadith said you need to see it".

Extent of lies, corruption and mockery of prophet can be seen in following hadith. It is super "sahih" as its in both Muslim and Bukhari (shortened here, click on link to see full version):

Sahih Muslim 16:4130 (http://hadithcollection.com/sahihmuslim/144-Sahih%20Muslim%20Book%2016.%20The%20Oath,%20Establ ishing%20Responsibilities%20Of%20Murders,%20Fighti ng,%20Requital/12500-sahih-muslim-book-016-hadith-number-4130.html) and Sahih Bukhari 82:796 (http://hadithcollection.com/sahihbukhari/115-Sahih%20Bukhari%20Book%2082.%20Punishment%20of%20D isbelievers%20at%20War%20with%20Allah%20and%20his% 20Apostle/6370-sahih-bukhari-volume-008-book-082-hadith-number-796.html)
Anas b. Malik: Some people from tribe of 'Uraina came to Allah's Messenger at Medina, but they found its climate uncongenial. So Allah's Messenger said to them: If you so like, you may go to the camels of Sadaqa and drink their milk and urine. (.... then they murdered someone....) This news reached Allah's Apostle and he sent (people) on their track and they were (brought) and handed over to him. He (the Holy Prophet) got their hands cut off, and their feet, and put out their eyes, and threw them on the stony ground until they died.There are more like this, but I will not post here for forum civility.

And finally here is a hadith, ordering you not to write hadith!

Muslim 42:7147 (http://hadithcollection.com/sahihmuslim/170-Sahih%20Muslim%20Book%2042.%20Piety%20and%20Soften ing%20Of%20Hearts/15360-sahih-muslim-book-042-hadith-number-7147.html)
Abu Sa'id Khudri reported that Allah's Messenger said: Do not take down anything from me, and he who took down anything from me except the Qur'an, he should efface that, for there is no harm in it and he who attributed any falsehood to me-and Hammam said: I think he also said: "deliberately"-he should in fact find his abode in the Hell-Fire.
Also, note that above hadith puts Bukhari in hell fire, as previous hadith about Muhammad asking people to drink camel's urine, and gouging their eyes cannot possibly be true! Bukhari deliberately added it in his book, thus attributed this falsehood to prophet. So according to Muslim 42:7147 he is hell bound!

Its funny, tragic and sad at the same time!

Here is a parable:
"There are six glasses of clean white water. You are told only one has poison mixed with it, but you do not know which one. Will you drink from any of those six glasses?" Reflect.

"GOD has revealed herein the best Hadith; a book that is consistent..."[Quran 39:23]; unlike man made "sahih" hadiths which are full of inconsistencies. Lets follow the best Hadith.

God bless.
--------------
Note: Above is my personal opinion and in no way reflects BC. Thanks.

Electrequiem
July 30, 2011, 10:06 PM
^Nasif, top post. I learned SO much. Thank you.

F6_Turbo
July 31, 2011, 01:30 AM
:lol:

And to think I missed all this excitement while I was banned for a month(punished twice for the same crime(I say crime, seeing as, a sentence was handed out, but I admit to nothing.... where is the justice?)

Ahh debates about Ramadhan starts/ends, reminds me of my childhood.

The Bangladeshi/Indian/Indo/Malay/African communities celebrating on one day, the Pakistanis and Saudis(along with some of the other arab countries) on a separate day....

Not being able to have unanimous agreements on such important dates, year after year :lol:

Rabz
July 31, 2011, 02:12 AM
Are bhais, ei je Chaad.

http://www.thedailystar.net/latest_photo/2009/11/18/2009-11-18__moon%202.jpg

Hoise ??

Ekhon je jar time moto deikha niyen, ar tarpor roja shuu koiren.

Ashun amra shobai mahe romjan dike monobisto hoye Allah ebong tar Rasul ke beshi beshi shoron kori and jikir, prarthonay ar ibadot e lipto hoy. Namaz pori, roja rakhi, Quran tilwat kori.

(This thread is soon diverting to Hadis/No Hadis debate.)

al Furqaan
July 31, 2011, 02:36 AM
^Nasif, top post. I learned SO much. Thank you.

as did I...top notch stuff.

I am by no means "anti-hadith" or "quran-only", but I am certainly a "quran supremacist". and its true, the new can't be seen...but i guess the absence of the moon on a cloudless night is what counts as 'seeing' it.

at any rate, we should all remember that the point of this month is not hunger, or thirst, or extra nawafil prayers, but it is to learn self restraint because that is the quintessence of piety.

idrinkh2O
July 31, 2011, 02:42 AM
Ramadan Mubarak my dear BC community:)

My wish is that maybe someday all of us muslims will be able to observe the fasting during the month of Ramadan and celebrating Eid-ul-Fitr and Eid-ul-Adha at the same time inshallah. It's really sad to see that many muslim communities don't see eye-to-eye regarding it. It really divides the community when the unity is soooooooooooo important at the moment.

BanCricFan
July 31, 2011, 02:49 AM
I am one Proud Prehistoric muslim Alhamdulillah! I prefer the siwaak over the toothpaste/toothbrush, anyday! I also prefer the word Allah over the word God. :D


Good on ya, Bro! I can assure you're not the only one. Siwaak is organic, has minerals and gentle on the gum. Hope you floss though. Which siwaak brand to you use?:D

While we are at it, I actually prefer the use of prehistoric deshi or arabic toilet, too. Squatting is good! And this is why : http://www.naturesplatform.com/health_benefits.html

Zeeshan
July 31, 2011, 03:01 AM
Yes bcf we can all see that you like squatting by the avy....no need to elaborate.

BANFAN
July 31, 2011, 03:07 AM
Its not Bukhari's religion. God orders you to use Sun and Moon for calculation. Bukhari tells you to scratch your head and look up at the sky to find the moon. Who do you listen to?

:up::up::up:

BanCricFan
July 31, 2011, 03:08 AM
Fanning the flame or a much needed reminder about the need for civility. Consider this - would the import of your statement have been any diminished had you eschewed from the use of the snide and insulting "little boys" comment?


Please, consider this, also; the 'little boys' comment wasn't meant to be "snide" or "insulting" except as a stark reminder of OUR spiritual and intellectual reality compared to those mountains of scholars who have preceded us. The hubris in us makes us blind and forget this important fact. I'm a little boy and have no problem in admitting it.

BANFAN
July 31, 2011, 03:32 AM
Islam is based on Quran and Hadith (saying of prophet SAW ). If something isn't clearly indicated in Quran than Scholers of Islam looked for it in Hadith and so on so.
Amongs all the Hadith books Sahih Bukhari is the most authentic and Bukhari isn't word of Imam Bukhari.It's the word prophet (Saw).
First we need to know who is Imam Bukhari (rahimahullah) and how he compiled Sahih Bukhari.
Back on the topic : We should respect those Scholers who came before us and should agree that they understood Islam better than we do now.Our knowledge regarding Islam is nothing compare to their vast Ilm.Yes there is nothing wrong in Islam regarding Ikhtilaf ( Scholarly opinions) when time and situation changes.

Ramadan Mubarak to all

I really dont want to enter into this disussion. We had it in detail in BC.

I can only tell you this much that everything that you have written is against Quran.

I would just ask you one question, if you contradict Allah with the help of scholars, does it make any sense to you? Like:

1. Allah says Quran is detail and complete ---- You say "if something isnt clear in quran ...." thats shirk
2. Allah says there is no Hadith other than this Quran - you say "There are sahih hadith .."

3. Did Allah authenticate that these are original? it's some people like Bukhari who wrote these Hadith for the first time from here says, after 200 years of Hijrat. Unfortunately Bible was also written down after about 200 years of Isa's death. And Allah has shown that it's beyond human ability to remember, pass on and write down any saying without error.

4. If a scholar contradicts and changes the intention of Quran, I have no respect for him. A scholar has the right to spread the message of Quran.

5. Allah says repeatedly, that Muhammad hasn't said anything other than what has been said to him and what has been said to him is in Quran, preserved by Allah.

Remember, nobody can make a writing simpler than Allah ... and that is also claimed by Allah in Quran; so I disagree to the mercenbary scholar, that they can make it clearer than Allah. That's how they earn their living.

Now you decide whom you want to follow, Allah or the lies spread by scholars in the name of Prophet Muhammad.

Again, these are my personal views and you have the complete freedom to disagree and do whatever you like. There is no force in religion of peace (Islam)

BanCricFan
July 31, 2011, 03:59 AM
Nasif,

Now its really becoming ridiculous. You're conflating the Quranic linguistic (lughawi) and specialist terminological (istilahi) usuage of the word Hadith. Thus, making a huge blunder in your understanding of the Deen and risking this life and the next in the process. Please take the huge responsibility and its consequence of misleading other muslims into your earnest consideration. And, No! Mr. Bukhari of Uzbekistan did not invent or discover the science of Hadith. Please, do try to muster a little bit of respect and forbearance. Lets not bang our heads against the mountains and have a little bit of compassion. Believe you me its much better to accept the prehistoric "backwardness" than this post-post modernist hubris or monstrosity.

Also, since you will not engage with me on the topic in hands would you please refrain from quoating the Noble Ahadith of our Prophet all out of context and with such impunity. In trying to make us look bad you're only revealing yourself. Do fear Allah! Allow me to remind you that general academic knowledge or qualification should not be mistaken as an automatic right to the high office of Islamic Ijtihad. Once again, let us all be the students of the Deen first before trying to become masters.

We ask Allah for His guidance and mercy. We ask the Most High that He grants us beneficial knowledge and seek refuge in Him from useless knowledge. We also ask Him to grant us the ability to see reality as it is. May He increase us in good actions. Peace and salutation on the Prophet and his family...Aameen!

Ramadan Kareem!

BanCricFan
July 31, 2011, 04:08 AM
Yes bcf we can all see that you like squatting by the avy....no need to elaborate.

Honestly, you should try it too. Might save you from prostate cancer.

Zunaid
July 31, 2011, 04:24 AM
Please, consider this, also; the 'little boys' comment wasn't meant to be "snide" or "insulting" except as a stark reminder of OUR spiritual and intellectual reality compared to those mountains of scholars who have preceded us. The hubris in us makes us blind and forget this important fact. I'm a little boy and have no problem in admitting it.

From the context of the post, I did not parse it as such. However, if it is as you intended, my apologies for misconstruing the meaning and tenor of the post.

BanCricFan
July 31, 2011, 05:14 AM
^its all good, bhai. :)

Banglatiger84
July 31, 2011, 06:20 AM
At the end of the day, a Muslim can never be sure that 100% of what is in Sahih Bukhari is exactly what the Prophet saws spoke.

95 or even 99% of it may be exact, but we considering Sahih Bukhari as infallible and 100% transmission of the Prophet saws' words means we are elevating it to the Qurans status.

Banglatiger84
July 31, 2011, 06:24 AM
Also, note that above hadith puts Bukhari in hell fire, as previous hadith about Muhammad asking people to drink camel's urine, and gouging their eyes cannot possibly be true! Bukhari deliberately added it in his book, thus attributed this falsehood to prophet. So according to Muslim 42:7147 he is hell bound!
.


We cannot blame Imam Bukhari, he may have had the best of intentions, but the fact that he lived many years after the Prophet saws' death means there is every chance that some weak ahadith would be considered strong no matter how hard he may haev tried. The Quran says Allah has protected it, but it does not say that ahadith are protected similarly by Allah. So there is always some chance that a weak narration became a strong narration

All blind believers in Ahadith always say one line "Do you know how hard Imam Bukhari worked and how strcitly he filtered ahadith"?

My answer is :yes, he had worked very hard and may Allah swt reward him for that. However I will never consider Ahadith narrated in Bukhari as 100% the words of Prophet saws as he was merely a human and its very likely some mistakes may have been made.

And Allah knows best

Tigers_eye
July 31, 2011, 06:59 AM
Ramadan Mubarak.

Some of the posts should have been behind the screen. BC has the capability. Say like Personal Messages. That is all I ask. It is not like I win and you lose. It is the most civic way.

Do not over eat at iftar. That is what I am trying to do in this Ramadan and encourage others. Remember those who were among us in last Ramadan or in the previous ones. Islam is very simple. Allah subhanawa tala did not make this religion to burden us. He is the All Knowing.

Thanks Nasif for creating this thread.

shaad
July 31, 2011, 10:04 AM
Honestly, you should try it too. Might save you from prostate cancer.

BCF, no offense intended, but prostate cancer is not caused by your posture in the toilet. We actually have a rather good understanding of the causes (the gradual collection of multiple mutations in the relevant tissue), and if one is a male and lives long enough (i.e. does not die due to some other ailment), it is one that we are likely to have.

You have, in your posts, emphasized the importance of generations of Islamic scholars. Perhaps you could extend that same benefit to biomedical scholars. The gentleman who is cited in your link, Mr. Wallace Bowles, does not have the benefit of an education in biology or medicine, and while I am generally willing to examine theories from neophytes in the field, I find the conflation of correlation with causation quite mistaken. Briefly, the article you cite tries to imply that the greater incidence of prostate cancer in the West is a consequence of posture, without (i) providing any relevant data (e.g. PSA levels in populations using different postures controlled for other factors), or (ii) taking into consideration other factors that we know to be relevant and different between the West and other societies (e.g. genotypes, concentrations of carcinogenic material, etc.).

BanCricFan
July 31, 2011, 11:01 AM
Shaad,

My post was more of a tongue and cheek one. Perhaps, should have cited colon cancer instead. ;)

Having said that, I do believe squatting is more of a natural and conducive posture than sitting on a toilet. My approach to these kind of articles/papers is not to take it as "Ten Commandments" nor dismiss it totally out of hand. I do as much research as possible as a layman and then follow a middle path. I happened to have a qualified doctor and graduates of biology, micro-biology and biochemistry (from reputable British univerisities) from amongst my ex-students. I do consult them whenever there is an opportunity.

Yes, my respect does extend to all reputable biomedical scholars or scholars of any other fields as long as they are honest, sincere, humble, independent and not slaves to the industry. Also. they must have a broad knowledge of other fields beside the area of their specialisation, particularly, the social sciences. Gosh...almost sounds like a mail order bride ad there!

BD_2015
July 31, 2011, 11:03 AM
I'm sorry to say but this is one of the most absurd posts I have come across. Yes, this is not Imam Bukhari's religion nor is this his saying. If you would just put the ego in check for a sec, you will find the Imam is actually relating a saying of the prophet of Islam. You know -the Prophet you have been commanded to obey by your Creator. And, this is just not an whimsical opinion of Imam Bukhari but multiple of Hadith scholars have narrated this. This is also the opinion of hundreds of Mujtahid scholars.

The Qur'anic verses you have quoted has no explicit connection with the sighting of the moon. Please look up the context of their revelations - if you dont believe me. Rather than arrogantly declaring when the Muslims should fast or not fast based on your wikipedic understanding of astronomy wouldn't it be more appropriate to refer this matter to its more rightful authorities i.e the qualified Islamic scholars? You seriously expect us not to follow Imam Bukhari et al but YOU?:) Do you even know who Imam Bukhari is? If you did you wouldn't have made such disparaging comment.

If you disagree with my understanding then provide evidence from Qur'an, Sunnah and the 'Ulama (scholars) whom are heir to the prophets. Please, no Wiki. Please dont adopt the way of those who accept only those part of the scripture which is in agreement with their desire and whims. Obey Allah, the Messenger and those who are over you (uli al-amr). Ulama are over you. Of course, unless you're a Mujtahid Imam.:)

This Deen is not preserved by little boys but Rijaal (Great Men) like Imam Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Hanifah, Malik, Shafi'e, Ahmed, Awjawi, Ibn Rushd, Ibn Khaldun, Al Ghazali, Razi, Nawawi, Suyuti, Sharakhshi, Dhahabi, et al. Many of them were polymaths. Lets humble ourself a little bit!


I'm sorry If I have come across a little too harsh but needed to be said as muslims nowadays are losing all perspective and modesty. Ramadan Mubaarak all the same.


Jazakallahu Khair, great explanation brother

BD_2015
July 31, 2011, 11:48 AM
I really dont want to enter into this disussion. We had it in detail in BC.

I can only tell you this much that everything that you have written is against Quran.
I would just ask you one question, if you contradict Allah with the help of scholars, does it make any sense to you? Like:

1. Allah says Quran is detail and complete ---- You say "if something isnt clear in quran ...." thats shirk

A.I think you miss understood me.Are you a Scholar of Islam ?
1.Do you know Fiqh?
Exp:Quran doesn't say anything about Tv, so what would you say about Tv? Watching tv is Halal or Haram? How would you answer this question without Hadith and help of Scholars?
2.Do you consider yourself more knowledgeble than all great previous Scholars?
3. Are you a Mujtahid?
4. Which type of Shirk is it? Shirk fijjat or Shirk fissifat?

2. Allah says there is no Hadith other than this Quran - you say "There are sahih hadith .."
B. So are you dening all Hadiths by Imam Bukhari (Rahmatullahi Alaih)) ?
1.Which verse Allah (SWT) says there is no Hadith other than this Quran?

3. Did Allah authenticate that these are original? it's some people like Bukhari who wrote these Hadith for the first time from here says, after 200 years of Hijrat. Unfortunately Bible was also written down after about 200 years of Isa's death. And Allah has shown that it's beyond human ability to remember, pass on and write down any saying without error.

4. If a scholar contradicts and changes the intention of Quran, I have no respect for him. A scholar has the right to spread the message of Quran.

C.In my post I never said Quran contradict with hadit.Astagfirullah .Quran will never be conradict with hadith cause everything Rasulullah (SW) said is from Allah.Unless hadith is false.
How would you know which Scholars and which verses meaning has been changed by Mufassirin? Unless you think you are more knowledgble than previous great scholars or you think you are a Mujtahid?

5. Allah says repeatedly, that Muhammad hasn't said anything other than what has been said to him and what has been said to him is in Quran, preserved by Allah.

Remember, nobody can make a writing simpler than Allah ... and that is also claimed by Allah in Quran; so I disagree to the mercenbary scholar, that they can make it clearer than Allah. That's how they earn their living.

D. Ya Allah brother are you considering all great previous Scholars mercenary and lived their life doing this.Astagfirullah
They were more beloved my Allah(SWT) than we are .Don't think cause we are living in 21st century that's why we are more knowledgeble than they are or we consider our self as Shaikh Google.

Now you decide whom you want to follow, Allah or the lies spread by scholars in the name of Prophet Muhammad.

E.Now do you expect us to follow you (Mujtahid) and are you dening Madhabs?

Again, these are my personal views and you have the complete freedom to disagree and do whatever you like. There is no force in religion of peace (Islam).

I think this thread topic has gone beyond ramadan .I pray to Allah that he unite Muslim ummah and gives us true understanding of Islam.Amin

Rifat
July 31, 2011, 12:08 PM
I want to share this beautiful poem my friend wrote(Zabih Mamun):


Deliver us to Ramadan
by Zabih Mamun

I got about a week or so,
to reform this weaker soul
we could disect it and patch up its holes
or we could just do as we are told
this advice is for the young and the old
for all types of souls...
maybe we could call up dr. scholls?
naa i didnt say sneaker soles
im talking a seeker's woe's





the seeker seeking a never ceasing pleasure
whether its 100 degrees or below freezing weather
whether its barefoot or snakeskin leather
neither will ever be better
then what the seeker seeks for His pleasure





coming close are the doors to mercy and grace
and mercy always comes at a greater pace
then the pace you put forward towards his face
a single step and you will get a taste
walk towards it and you it will chase
not one step will ever be at waste





I ask to just make it to one blessed day
OH Allah Deliver us to Ramadan







I said Oh Allah deliver us to ramadan,





Deliver us to the month where you chained Shaytaan
where you Revealed unto your noble Slave (pbuh), the Quran
where you prescribed during its days Al-Siyaam
and you adorned its nights with Qiyaam.
Oh Allah I thank you for guiding me to Islaam,
now just deliver me to another month of Ihsaan





Where we can pray all night, with no end in sight
and as my legs get tight, the angels can write,
the pain i endured to give you your right.
Allah you are the light, and to you belongs my life





I ask you whose hands my soul is between,
i have become a fene, can somebody say charlie sheen
and the more close we get, the more i ween,
what if i dont make it, it makes 1/5 of my deen
OH lord of the unseen, deliver this human being





Oh Allah deliver us to Ramadan





Deliver us to the month of patience,
My hearts been achin, it needs medication
many have i tried, but what better can i find,
then what you have prescribed
upon us and those before who have died,
Fasting is an obligation, which without i cannot survive
because its for you, and you will reward those who strived,
i never felt deprived, so i was surprised,
when some of them said they cant decide,
if they should fast or follow their desires.
I ask you for Jannah, and seek protection from the fire
keep on my tongue words of repentance
and words that praise your sole existence
This is what my messenger taught and extended
to do four things in this month, intensive
and with every struggle there is an incentive
you dont have to do much to be impressive
just give a sip to drink and the rewards extensive
you wanna know dont you, so listen up time to be attentive,





On a day when the sun will be over your head,
everyone will be brought back from the dead
all taken into account for what they said
with no guarantee on what's ahead
no shade for those misled,
no place to escape blindly they will tread,
with no end in sight sinking in their sweat,
i repeat they will be sinkin in their sweat!!,
except.... except for the ones who accepted the oath
to give iftaar whether it was a loaf
of bread, or if it was water he fed,
Then Allah will provide a drink, from a fountain
whose water will have effects of a mountain,
when your thirst will need some quenchin,
this is not sprite, cuz that has its ending,
while this drink will keep you thirst free
till the brink of Jannah, where after everything you see,
you will want to be thirsty.
So firstly, I ask oh Allah to resurrect me,
amongst those who gained your mercy,
and save me from where the worst will be
and just deliver me......





Oh Allah Deliver us all to the month of Ramadan.





Deliver us to the first 10 days filled with rahmat wa Ihsaan
deliver us to the middle days, where you are @fwan wa ghufraan
Deliver us to the last days, where you free the souls from al-neeran
Deliver us to laylatal qadr





where 1 night = 1000 and more
where my deeds multiply out the door,
where that night I will take out my sword and go to war,
asking for more and more with my forehead on the floor,
until i may seem like a bore,
and wont come back till the clock strikes 4:44 (approximate fajr time on laylutl qadr nights)
this is what i will do for forgiveness or,
what i will do for your rewards,
i just ask that you deliver this servant of yours





OH Allah deliver us to Ramdaan....





again.... and again... and again...

shaad
July 31, 2011, 12:59 PM
Having said that, I do believe squatting is more of a natural and conducive posture than sitting on a toilet.
That, I am inclined to agree with. And there is some data to suggest that such a posture is healthier.

Yes, my respect does extend to all reputable biomedical scholars or scholars of any other fields as long as they are honest, sincere, humble, independent and not slaves to the industry. Also. they must have a broad knowledge of other fields beside the area of their specialisation, particularly, the social sciences. Gosh...almost sounds like a mail order bride ad there!

Well, I do have a Chinese postdoc in the lab thinking about getting a mail order bride :)

al Furqaan
July 31, 2011, 01:50 PM
At the end of the day, a Muslim can never be sure that 100% of what is in Sahih Bukhari is exactly what the Prophet saws spoke.

95 or even 99% of it may be exact, but we considering Sahih Bukhari as infallible and 100% transmission of the Prophet saws' words means we are elevating it to the Qurans status.

+++++

how and why is this so hard to understand? i understand why islamophobes hold the Hadith up as gospel (pun intended) because they wish to portray Rasulullah as a mysogynist, rapist, murderer, and looter. but why from muslims?

Rifat
July 31, 2011, 07:07 PM
....

And finally here is a hadith, ordering you not to write hadith!
Also, note that above hadith puts Bukhari in hell fire, as previous hadith about Muhammad asking people to drink camel's urine, and gouging their eyes cannot possibly be true! Bukhari deliberately added it in his book, thus attributed this falsehood to prophet. So according to Muslim 42:7147 he is hell bound!

Its funny, tragic and sad at the same time!
...
Note: Above is my personal opinion and in no way reflects BC. Thanks.

Nasif bhai, With all due respect, I disagree with you on a certain point and here is why:

DISCLAIMER:

please do not be offended that when i am quoting this post, I cut off some parts with "..." it may look Like I am ignoring you but in reality i have done so only to focus on the part of the post i disagree with


this is the ahadith according to the link you have provided:
Sahih Muslim Hadith of RasulUllah(SalAllahu A'laihe wasallam) (http://hadithcollection.com/sahihmuslim/170-Sahih%20Muslim%20Book%2042.%20Piety%20and%20Soften ing%20Of%20Hearts/15360-sahih-muslim-book-042-hadith-number-7147.html)

and this is what it states as per the link:
Sahih Muslim Book 042, Hadith Number 7147.
Sahih Muslim Book 42. Piety and Softening Of Hearts
Print

Chapter : To state Hadith after Its verification and recording of "Knowledge".

Abu Sa'id Khudri reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Do not take down anything from me, and he who took down anything from me except the Qur'an, he should efface that and narrate from me, for there is no harm in it and he who attributed any falsehood to me-and Hammam said: I think he also said: "deliberately"-he should in fact find his abode in the Hell-Fire.

First of all, RasulUllah(SalAllahu a'laihe wasallam) has commanded that do not take down anything from me except Qur'an, which is exactly why ahadith was not something written down until after 250 years death of RasulUllah(SalAllahu A'laihe wasallam) died when it was necessary to preserve the traditions. during the time of RasulUllah(SalAllahu A'laihe waslallam) there was no need to record ahadith by scrolls and scribes because he was alive and his closest companions were also alive, if there was any issue, you would go ask him,you had the walking qur'an right in front of you. Not only that Allah would reveal verses of Qur'an through angel Gabriel to prophet Mohammad(SalAllahu a'laihe wasallam). according to this hadith a person is hell-bound IF:

that person attributed false sayings unto the prophet(SalAllahu A'laihe wasallam). You have stated that cutting off eyes and commanding a group of people to drink milk and camel urine cannot be true without showing evidence that they are false. you just said they can't be true because it doesn't sound "true". Therefore, I will not accept your ruling that "mr. Bukhari"(may Allah have mercy on him) is hell-bound just based on that argument. I am not in that authority to make that judgement to say who is heavenly or from the fire of hell. that information only belongs to Allah, as he is the most conclusive of all judges.

secondly, (about the camel urine hadith), they were murdered because they are apostates, on top of that they are murderers! according to Qur'an Allah says:

http://c00022506.cdn1.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/9_12.png
And if they break their oaths after their treaty and defame your religion, then fight the leaders of disbelief, for indeed, there are no oaths [sacred] to them; [fight them that] they might cease.

http://c00022506.cdn1.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/9_13.png
Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and determined to expel the Messenger, and they had begun [the attack upon] you the first time? Do you fear them? But Allah has more right that you should fear Him, if you are [truly] believers.

Surah Tawbah Ayahs 12-13
Chapter 9, verses 12-13

imna
July 31, 2011, 10:30 PM
.

I think this thread topic has gone beyond ramadan .I pray to Allah that he unite Muslim ummah and gives us true understanding of Islam.Amin

:floor::floor:

Zunaid
July 31, 2011, 10:34 PM
:floor::floor:

What is so funny?

- as Admin
<br />Posted via BC Mobile Edition (iPhone)

BANFAN
August 2, 2011, 02:54 AM
My Friend, your logics and allegations are all preconceived to suit your point of view. So you ask some questions which has been answered already in my post or by others in this thread.

.
A.I think you miss understood me.Are you a Scholar of Islam ?
BF: Could be. But very unlikely after your this post.

.1.Do you know Fiqh?
Exp:Quran doesn't say anything about Tv, so what would you say about Tv? Watching tv is Halal or Haram? How would you answer this question without Hadith and help of Scholars?

BF: I know fiqh and that's derived from / based on Quran.

What’s TV? Is it something different than the things you face/see every day in life? Don’tyou know what to see and what not to see in this world? Hasn’t Quran given that guidelines? Why do we need a different fatwa for TV?

Quran also didn’t tell if we will make our food spicy or not. Do you need a Hadith for that? Allah has given us the freedom to cook according to our taste, may be u need a Hadith to curtail that freedom granted by Allah? That’s shirk. So when a scholar says that something isn't mentioned in the Quran, that only indicates that the scholar failed to understand the very essence of Quran. Because Quran is a complete code of conduct for Muslims and that's claimed in Quran as well.

2.Do you consider yourself more knowledgeable than all great previous Scholars?

BF: No. But I consider Quran to be much superior and incomparable to all scholars put together.

3. Are you a Mujtahid?
BF: NO; But why do u ask this? If following Quran is the sign of being Mujtahid, then I am. These terms and definitions are shackles created by scholars to keep people sticking to what they say, through enormous social pressure.

4. Which type of Shirk is it? Shirk fijjat or Shirk fissifat?

Shirk is a Shirk. Whenever you compare anyone with Allah, or worship him or contradict Quran/Allah that amounts to making partners’ with Allah, that's shirk. Because none in this world (Even The Prophet) had the authority to change Allah's orders or contradict Allah. That’s according to Quran. You or me or a scholar cannot define a lesser or higher degree of it, since Allah didn’t. It’s a religion of Allah and the book of law & Guidance is Quran, given by Allah. It's not like this that; if you worship 'Idols of Brahma' that's a 100% shirk and if you idolize Muhammad/Scholars that's 25% shirk. Shirk is a shirk and I don't go by your definition. It's an absolute thing and 1% and 100% makes no difference.

You are in the deep whole of the religion created by Scholars. Islam is not a religion of Scholars.

B. So are you dening all Hadiths by Imam Bukhari (Rahmatullahi Alaih)) ?
BF: Do you want me to believe some hearsays collected after 200 years? Do you remember anything of your own forefathers 200 years back and verbatim what they said? Is that possible? Study communication, you will know if it is humanly possible for anyone after 200 years. There may be elements of truth in some Hadith but if that book contains 1% of error I don't follow it. Then what's the problem following Bible? That has also a lot of things which are right in the light of Quran and that also came through a mighty messenger.

1.Which verse Allah (SWT) says there is no Hadith other than this Quran?

BF: Read, Nasif’s Posts, he has already Quoted that in this thread. And I’m tired of quoting these verses again and again on BC, please dig into the older threads on this debate in BC, you will get more.

C.In my post I never said Quran contradict with hadit.Astagfirullah .Quran will never be conradict with hadith cause everything Rasulullah (SW) said is from Allah.Unless hadith is false. How would you know which Scholars and which verses meaning has been changed by Mufassirin? Unless you think you are more knowledgble than previous great scholars or you think you are a Mujtahid?

BF: You don’t have to say. I didn’t tell about you. There are neumerous Hadith which are scientifically wrong and contradicts Quran. So I told about Hadith written by scholars, not you. Ya that Bold and underlined part is the key. They didnt change the Quran, but they have put some words into the mouth of prophet (Hadith) after his death which are mostly purpose oriented under the rulers. That's how scholars got initially divided into Shia and Sunni.

D. Ya Allah brother are you considering all great previous Scholars mercenary and lived their life doing this.Astagfirullah They were more beloved my Allah(SWT) than we are .Don't think cause we are living in 21st century that's why we are more knowledgeble than they are or we consider our self as Shaikh Google.

BF: Surely the one who got the favours of Kings and flourished, are. Do you know the profession of any Mullah today? Even today they get paid (99%) for saying prayer & earn talking/preaching Islam. How do you know all scholars are better than you or me? You only know about their external face, do you know what was in their heart? and then did you get a copy of judgementday that you know they are more beloved? You are just assuming, let us have the patience to have their judgement from Allah.

Do you find any independent scholar (Religious) even in this free world of 21st century?

21st century knowledge has helped us to understand many scientific leads in Quran, which were never understood by any scholars before or even the prophet. Like the lead of ‘Big Bang’ in sura Al Tawba and the stages of a child growth in the womb described in Sura Al Nisa etc etc. And definitely 21st century scholars are more equipped to understand everything much better. But that’s not something we are discussing. We are talking about collection process and purpose of hadith and claiming it to be Sahih & the very need of it.

If Muhammad’s words were important to be preserved or he said something additional to the Quran and needed to be preserved, Allah would have inspired us much earlier than 200 years to record it directly from the people who heard him. Just see what he did for the Quran to preserve it. Whereas, it was forbidden during Muhammad's time to write down what Muhammad said except the revelations (Al Quran).


E.Now do you expect us to follow you (Mujtahid) and are you dening Madhabs?

I told "WE MUST FOLLOW QURAN AND NOTHING BUT THE QURAN" Does that mean I told you to follow me? You are putting a scholar/Mullah style social pressure on me by calling me Mujtahid, if I argue more you will call me Murtad and ask for my head etc etc. Or you are doing Hadith style, putting words into my mouth.

Your scholars have tought you to call someone Mujtahid or something when ever you contradict them. See; even you as a lay man are creating social pressure on me. Think how much power these scholars can put for someone who doesn’t perceive Islam as they say. It is because of them that we are divided into Madhabs and fractions. What Madhab the prophet was from? What did he follow? Aren’t we supposed to follow him? He followed Quran and nothing but the Quran (That's said in Quran).

Have you ever tried to study and understand Quran or just holding to the scholars? If you read and understand Quran, you may be surprised seeing the amount of contradiction with Quran and the Scholars. So most of the time they justify their preachings through Hadith rather than Quran. That‘s so convenient. Remove the Hadith, most of these scholars will look to be liars in the light of Quran. Please read the Quran and none can write better than Allah, He only made it easy for us to understand. The only things you will not understand is the life hearafter and the scientific leads will become clearer depending upon how much knowledge of science the mankind could acquire of the universe. Rest, the does and don'ts are as simple as clear water. Try once, the original book, i hope you had enough of scholars.

Look, all your questions are personal and you are trying to undermine me or trying to find out some irrelevant holes so that you can attack me on that, instead of reasoning the need for additional source than Quran or the autheticity or need for Hadith.

Whatever Allah wanted us to follow of Muhammad, is very much recorded in Quran, why do I need scholars for that? Isn't Quran enough? I could be passionate listener of a scholar if he is reading and discussing Quran, but not Hadith of Bukhari.

NB: Again, these are my personal views and you have the complete freedom to disagree and do whatever you like. There is no force in religion of peace (Islam). I have done my bit by reminding you to follow Quran and not the hearsays, rest is upto you..

Alien
August 2, 2011, 03:15 AM
Theres about 5 ramadan related threads right now in FC.

Banglatiger84
August 2, 2011, 04:36 AM
At the end of the day a lot depends on 2 contrasting schools of thought :

1) That a person always needs scholars to follow islam properly and that most of us are not knowledgable enough to understand the Quran, so we need scholars.
So if some scholar says Sahih Bukhari is 100% correct , we believe that, because the scholar is more knowledgable than us.
Similarly if some scholar says Shrimps are Makruh, using cameras is Haram, or its haram to vote in any election, we dont question simply because the scholar is more knowledgable than us
Debates between this Muslim and someone who doesnt believe in it often ends up in him asking the latter "do you think you know more than Scholar ....." ?


2) Every Muslim has a brain and conscience to understand Allah's message. he may need scholar's opinions from time to time on unclear issues, but at the end of the day he follows most aspects of Islam by reading and understanding himself and not "because this Alim told me so and so" or "That Alim said this is Haram". He does not have an absolute right to judge what is Haram and what isnt, but he can check scholarly opinions and formulate one on that basis, even if it may contradict with the majority opinion.

Of course Type 2 can morph into some people too arrogant to understand Islam and so they declare Haram things as Halal as long as it suits them and vice versa

BanCricFan
August 2, 2011, 06:44 PM
Banglatiger84,

In the matter of basic 'aqeedah or creed every person must have their own belief or knowledge. Generally, Taqleed isn't allowed there. But, when it comes to extracting legal opinions from the scripture its a different kettle of fish. You wouldn't expect a layperson without proper qualification allowed to practice law in any land. Islamic jurisprudence (Fiqh) is no different to that. One must be trained and qualified.

Reading the text i.e the Qur'an or Prophetic traditions (ahadith) is something but having an expert and authoritative understanding of those text is quite something different. For example, one must know which Quranic verse or Hadith is absolute, comprehensive, explicit, general, specific, implicit, restricted, conditional, equivocal and singular in meaning, unequivocal and open to more than one meaning, abrogating and abrogated verses...so on and so forth. I'm sure you will agree this not a child's play and would require thorough training. Also this automatically assumes a mastery of classical Arabic language. Hence, the need for authoritative scholarship and scholars ('Ulama).

Three kinds of people who doesn't follow scholars:

a) qualified absolute scholars (mujtahid mutlaq)

b) sincere but misguided arrogant individuals

c) hypocrites (munafiqun) masquerading as believers to sow the seed of discord from within.

As for as those who deny the validity of Hadith in Shar'i matters either they are sincere but fatalistically ignorant or simply belongs to "c" above.

BANFAN
August 5, 2011, 12:10 AM
At the end of the day a lot depends on 2 contrasting schools of thought :

.....................

Of course Type 2 can morph into some people too arrogant to understand Islam and so they declare Haram things as Halal as long as it suits them and vice versa

WRONG. as long as it is consistant with the Quran.

There is nothing about suiting a person or not in Islam.