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Mridul
February 26, 2004, 12:11 AM
... and I just thought how on earth the women in the Middle East can go around wearing black burkhas, head to toe, in such stiffling heat. To ask people to do that is just.. cruel.

...these women r just following their Lord's command....may be some women are forced to do so....but also there are women who r just practicing their Faith...they Love their Lord....thats why they r obeying HIM

[Edited on 12-7-2004 by nasif : subject text fix after split/merge]

Hasib
February 26, 2004, 03:28 AM
you will find that the majority of women r taught by older women in their family to wear the hijab... not inforced by men at all.

Carte Blanche
February 26, 2004, 09:12 AM
[...]

Nasif
February 26, 2004, 09:18 AM
I don't want to turn this into a religious discussion thread, but covering from head to toe is NOT the command at all.

Mridul
February 26, 2004, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by nasif
I don't want to turn this into a religious discussion thread, but covering from head to toe is NOT the command at all.

...whose command u r talking about here?

Nasif
February 26, 2004, 12:46 PM
I am talking about the command from The One and Only.

fab
February 26, 2004, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by Carte Blanche
After reading all this, amar burkha porar shokh hoise :D
Why? Do you have a tendancy to cross dress? hehehe :P

Mridul, covering from head to toe in black burkhas is "Sunath" - is it not? Either way, personally I think it is unfair that women need to tortured in this way just because some men are perverted. There is a big difference between asking someone to dress modestly/conservatively and asking them to physically impede themselves with layers and layers of cloth.

btw, isn't it ironic how Brandi cannot celebrate in the same manner as Pape Diop. If a man does it, it's because he scored the goal of his life, but if a woman does it, it's 'exposure'.. Sigh.. still living in medieval times I see.

Mridul
February 26, 2004, 07:24 PM
Mridul, covering from head to toe in black burkhas is "Sunath" - is it not?

....People who believe in Islam...God says in their Holy book (Qur'an)..

O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies. That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allah(God) is Ever Oft‑Forgiving, Most Merciful
[al-Ahzaab 33:59]

...as far as i know...and understand....Black Bukhas r traditional dresses which suits the best for the above Words of God........I think, as far as Muslim women cover their hair and body...and wear loose fitting dresses...they r following their God's commands.

fab
February 26, 2004, 07:46 PM
Originally posted by Mridul
O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies.
[al-Ahzaab 33:59]

...as far as i know...and understand....Black Bukhas r traditional dresses which suits the best for the above Words of God........I think, as far as Muslim women cover their hair and body...and wear loose fitting dresses...they r following their God's commands. Sorry, must admit I am not well versed on the subject of Islam, but from that excerpt, where did you get the requirement for covering the hair as well? Is there any other verse that explicitly states that requirement?

Mridul
February 28, 2004, 07:25 PM
Originally posted by fab
Is there any other verse that explicitly states that requirement?

"And tell the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts) and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparent , and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, necks and bosoms)

[al-Noor 24:31]

God says and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, necks and bosoms) . The jayb (pl. juyoob) is the neck opening of a garment and the khimaar (veil) is that with which a woman covers her head.

Nasif
February 28, 2004, 08:47 PM
Originally posted by Mridul

....People who believe in Islam...God says in their Holy book (Qur'an)..

O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies. That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allah(God) is Ever Oft‑Forgiving, Most Merciful
[al-Ahzaab 33:59]

...as far as i know...and understand....Black Bukhas r traditional dresses which suits the best for the above Words of God........I think, as far as Muslim women cover their hair and body...and wear loose fitting dresses...they r following their God's commands.

This is one of the most mistranslated verse in Quran. Those translators who mistranslate it, either don't know how to translate or have a hidden agenda (keeping the women down!).

Here is the original Arabic, literal translation from Arabic and most correct translation in English:
http://yaqb.lrhazi.com/images/alazhr.org/33_059.gif

Literal:
You, you the prophet, say to your wives and your daughters and the believers' women they near (lengthen) on them from their shirts/gowns/wide dresses, that (is) nearer that they be known (better than being identified), so they do not be harmed mildly/harmed, and God was/is forgiving, merciful.

English:
O prophet, tell your wives, your daughters, and the wives of the believers that they shall lengthen their garments. Thus, they will be recognized (as righteous women) and avoid being insulted. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.


This command is to dress modestly so that you aren't insulted or "fielded" at when you are outside. There is no indication of any kind of head to toe covering. It is impossible to enforce head to toe covering command based on this. :umm:

Well, I didn't want this thread to turn into Quran discussion, but it was inevitable. :)

[Edited on 29-2-2004 by nasif]

reverse_swing
February 28, 2004, 09:00 PM
excellent. Thanks.

chinaman
February 28, 2004, 11:04 PM
This thread has been created from splitting up the thread named "Tighter Soccer Uniform" in the Bangladesh Football forum.

Please let me know if you think any other post needs to be moved here from the original thread.

Thank you for your continuing co-operation and understanding.

fab
February 29, 2004, 12:57 AM
Thanks Mridul and Nasif for the clarification. One Dr. Ibrahim B. Syed, Ph.D
seems to think it is not compulsory either.(link) (http://www.islamfortoday.com/syed06.htm)

This begs the question though, why the heck is it compulsory in Saudi Arabia?

Anyhow, I think I will go with Nasif's translation since it suits me well ;)

Thank you for your continuing co-operation and understanding.
Haha.. this has to be tongue in cheek.. Right? :umm:

[Edited on 29-2-2004 by fab]

Nasif
February 29, 2004, 01:12 AM
Originally posted by fab
This begs the question though, why the heck is it compulsory in Saudi Arabia?


Simple answer to this:
Saudis are the furthest from true Islam. Whatever they are doing has nothing to do with Islam or its values.

For starters: there is no kingdomship in Islam :exclamation:

[Edited on 1-3-2004 by nasif : spelling]

crickipagol
February 29, 2004, 08:19 AM
Now a days I hear something like this....Wearing Black cloak and Veil is a cultural thing for Saudi women. For expat women around here, wearing cloak is a must but not the veil.

No way tell, who is correct who is wrong. Just live the fullest of life.

There is nothing afterwards! Atleast nobody came back to tell us anything.

chinaman
February 29, 2004, 09:02 AM
Originally posted by crickipagol

There is nothing afterwards! Atleast nobody came back to tell us anything.

You have a valid point there! Well, if you ever happen to come across something really "afterwards", don't say you were not warned "beforewards".

Arnab
March 1, 2004, 11:40 AM
I warn you that pigs will fly and I will have sex with the hottest woman in the universe sometime soon in the future.

You have been warned!

fab
March 1, 2004, 08:11 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39904000/jpg/_39904637_apiraq300.jpg
The picture is almost surreal...

On another note, the problem of being 'moderately' religious these days is that you get both ends of the spectrum trying to force their ideologies down your throat. On the one hand you have the religious zealots who praise the lord in every waking minute and bemoan your inevitable entrance into Hell, and on the other hand you have the intellectual athiests who blame all ills of the world on religion and try to convert you to athiesm else brand you as being a stupid idiot. (read The Quran and Science thread to see is a classic example of this) ;)

Come on guys, what happened to a bit of moderation? (no pun intended)

Arnab
March 1, 2004, 08:24 PM
on the other hand you have the intellectual athiests who blame all ills of the world on religion and try to convert you to athiesm else brand you as being a stupid idiot

Seeing I was the only "intellectual atheist" in that particular thread, please, fab, by all means, point out exactly where:

1. I tried to blame all ills of the world on religion.

2. I tried to "convert" somebody to an atheist, and branded somebody a stupid idiot because he didn't want to "convert".

ASSuming is fun. :)

fab
March 1, 2004, 10:12 PM
DUDe, I can't believe you walked right into this.. In a scan through the thread I found these brilliant quotes from you.

examples of the "ppl who are religious are stupid idiots" mindset:

"Is your faith SO strong that you have to brainwash yourself like that?"
"And when they go back home and say their prayers, they are back in irrational blind faith mode again."
"You are deluded, but perhaps not beyond redemption"
"you have established yourself as a closeminded fundamentalist"

Examples of attempt at conversion:
"Why are YOU taking the infinitely bigger risk of believing something that is so ILLOGICAL?"
"Because it is mostly useless. I am not changing anyone's mind here."

And saving the best for last..

"I have had constant debates with my college buddies and actually managed to convert one christian to an atheist."

DOGmatic CONviction from both sides of the camp truly are tiring for those of us in the middle :)

[Edited on 2-3-2004 by fab]

Arnab
March 1, 2004, 10:42 PM
Holy...! You are one relentless...the decorum of this forum prohibits me from saying the word. :)

OK lemme go over this again:

1. You weren't able to prove that I "blamed all the ills of the world on religion."

2. You weren't able to prove I tried to "convert" any member here on this board! Yes, I had debates with my friends in my college, NOT about Quran and Science in particular, but Atheism in general, and yes, after having debates and conversations with me throughout one whole semester on numerous occassions about various issues, one of my friends did turn to atheism. But he did it on his own will. It could be said that interactions with me made him an atheist. Hence the use of the word "convert". I didn't press him or anything and he doesn't even credit me for the "conversion." Apparently, he had doubts about God LONG BEFORE he met me.

And FYI, Atheism is not a religion. You cannot really "convert" anybody to it. It was a tongue in cheek comment. Which is exactly why I EXPLICITLY said,

"I am not changing anyone's mind here."

You even put it in bold. :duh:

-----------

And I appreciate your painstaking "research" through all my posts to find out-of-context sentences and apply your QUACK psychology on them to reveal my "mindset". Attempt at conversation? WTF does that mean? Is this a formal philosophical convention and I have to follow a certain format to write my posts? News Flash: This is a messageboard. I can "attempt to converse".

---------

But yes, by the course of this useless dialogue between you and myself that just happened, I HAVE acquired a mindset for a certain kind of people who I think are REALLY stupid. Thank you for that.

acker
March 2, 2004, 01:14 AM
Originally posted by fab
http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39904000/jpg/_39904637_apiraq300.jpg
The picture is almost surreal...

On another note, the problem of being 'moderately' religious these days is that you get both ends of the spectrum trying to force their ideologies down your throat. On the one hand you have the religious zealots who praise the lord in every waking minute and bemoan your inevitable entrance into Hell, and on the other hand you have the intellectual athiests who blame all ills of the world on religion and try to convert you to athiesm else brand you as being a stupid idiot. (read The Quran and Science thread to see is a classic example of this) ;)

Come on guys, what happened to a bit of moderation? (no pun intended)
:heart:
I think its best that the women in the picture keep thier burkah's on , It would be a terrible sight to see their flabby bits getting jammed in part of the gun mechanism...:pig::pig::pig:

fab
March 2, 2004, 02:56 AM
FFS Arnab, get a grip! You read far too much into my posts. Let me clarify one very important point: My posts do NOT revolve around making veiled swipes at you.. sheesh :duh:

It was YOU who took my GENERIC observation on religious and atheist zealots personally. I just merely obliged your request to find proof in that particular thread. I normally try to back up what I say with evidence, and that thread was an example close at hand (but i certainly would NOT have included it as an example if I'd known certain individuals would take it as a personal insult). If someone asks me a question, I answer it. Now if that makes me a relentless b*tch so be it.You even put it in bold. The context in which that quote was used, implied that the debate had become useless as you could not change anyone's mind. That is usually what happens in religious debates.. people try to change others' opinions but get no where. When you are in the middle of the field, like me, it's worse since you get both parties trying to change your mind and THAT was the whole feckin POINT of my initial post!

Where the heck did I say YOU blamed all ills of the world on religion OR that YOU tried to convert people on this board? And in case you are unaware - conveRSIon does not equal to conveRSATion.

Hasib
March 2, 2004, 04:21 AM
Fab... don't worry about Anrab... he has some... ummm... shall we say... unusual ideas... not just religion... but other incidents...

Arnab
March 2, 2004, 11:54 AM
The context in which that quote was used, implied that the debate had become useless as you could not change anyone's mind

WTF? Not at all! I did NOT enter the debate in order to "change anyone's mind"! Which is exactly what I said! Get that inside your thick skull. Don't make up your own quack psychoanalytical contexts.

You obliged at my request? What exactly was my request, eh? I asked you to prove the two points and you proved neither of them.

Lemme racap here:

You call atheists as extremist and dogmatic. That atheists think religion is to blame for all the ills in the world. And that atheists think everyone else is a stupid idiot. Sweeping comments with no actual proof that atheists really think like that.

I would have let these go, because these are simply ludicrous assumptions based on quack psychoanalysis.

But then you suggest that the "Quran and Science" page is a good example of how atheists think. Then it caught my attention. Because I was the only atheist in that thread.

You are trying to prove that I thought everybody else in that thread was a "stupid idiot".

You are trying to prove that I tried to "convert" everyone in that thread to atheism.

Both of these are WRONG ASSumptions. I didn't enter the debate to accomplish either of these tasks.

What is you point, fab?

Nothing. Nada. Zero. Zip. Zilch.

Shubho
March 2, 2004, 12:32 PM
Please, please, please STOP. Your endless squabbling is a drag. Why don't you guys just go out for dinner and discuss these issues without exchanging insults? Your little arguments lead me to think that you're a married couple or something.

Make LOVE, not WAR.

[Edited on 2-3-2004 by Shubho]

chinaman
March 2, 2004, 01:42 PM
Dear Arnab

Reminding you once again, attack the message not the messenger. And if you can't control your urge to phrase your aurgument without those ornaments, do not reply at all. If I had to edit your post even for a single word for either it's meaning or it's tone, it will become an empty post. Please do not answer to this post because I wouldn't be wasting my energy to reply. We already had enough discussions in the past. Cheers.

Arnab
March 2, 2004, 01:52 PM
If I had to edit your post even for a single word for either it's meaning or it's tone, it will become an empty post.

Look, don't give empty warnings. If you want to delete an entire post based on my "tone", go ahead. Do it.

You as a moderator are not accountable for whatever steps you take. This is clearly not a democratic forum or anything. You won't be held accountable. It's ok. I understand.

And personally, I don't rely on your judgment of the properness of my "tone".


-----------


Shubho,

lol man! I am pretty sure of that too. In fact, I think, if hypothetically fab went to my college or something and was single, I might have ended up marrying her. ;)

[Edited on 2-3-2004 by Arnab]

rafiq
March 2, 2004, 02:58 PM
:D that's hilarious! the question is, would she have married you?? :D

Hasib
March 3, 2004, 03:34 AM
I found this on the net.

Q3.Why does Islaam degrade women by keeping them behind the veil?
Answer.
The status of women in Islam is often the target of attacks in the secular media. The hijab or the Islamic dress is cited by many as an example of the subjugation of women under Islamic law. Before we analyze the reasoning behind the religiously mandated hijab, let us first study the status of women in societies before the advent of Islam.

1. In the past women were degraded and used as objects of lust
The following examples from history amply illustrate the fact that the status of women in earlier civilizations was very low to the extent that they were denied basic human dignity:
1. Babylonian Civilization:
The women were degraded and were denied all rights under the Babylonian law. If a man murdered a woman, instead of him being punished, his wife was put to death.
2. Greek Civilization:
Greek Civilization is considered the most glorious of all ancient civilizations. Under this very glorious system, women were deprived of all rights and were looked down upon. In Greek mythology, an imaginary woman called Pandora is the root cause of misfortune of human beings. The Greeks considered women to be subhuman and inferior to men. Though chastity of women was precious, and women were held in high esteem, the Greeks were later overwhelmed by ego and sexual perversions. Prostitution became a regular practice amongst all classes of Greek society.
3. Roman Civilization:
When Roman Civilization was at the zenith of its glory, a man even had the right to take the life of his wife. Prostitution and nudity were common amongst the Romans.
4. Egyptian Civilization:
The Egyptian considered women evil and as a sign of a devil.
5. Pre-Islamic Arabia:
Before Islam spread in Arabia, the Arabs looked down upon women and very often when a female child was born, she was buried alive.

2. Islam uplifted women and gave them equality and expects them to maintain their status.
Islam uplifted the status of women and granted them their just rights 1400 years ago. Islam expects women to maintain their status.

Hijab for men
People usually only discuss hijab in the context of women. However, in the Glorious Quran, Allah (swt) first mentions hijab for men before hijab for the women. The Quran mentions in Surah Noor:
"Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: and Allah is well acquainted with all that they do." [Al-Quran 24:30]

The moment a man looks at a woman and if any brazen or unashamed thought comes to his mind, he should lower his gaze.

Hijab for women.
The next verse of Surah Noor, says:
" And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands fathers, their sons..." [Al-Qur'n 24:31]

3. Six criteria for Hijab.
According to Qur'n and Sunnah there are basically six criteria for observing hijab:
1. Extent:
The first criterion is the extent of the body that should be covered. This is different for men and women. The extent of covering obligatory on the male is to cover the body at least from the navel to the knees. For women, the extent of covering obligatory is to cover the complete body except the face and the hands upto the wrist. If they wish to, they can cover even these parts of the body. Some scholars of Islam insist that the face and the hands are part of the obligatory extent of hijab.
All the remaining five criteria are the same for men and women.
2. The clothes worn should be loose and should not reveal the figure.
3. The clothes worn should not be transparent such that one can see through them.
4. The clothes worn should not be so glamorous as to attract the opposite sex.
5. The clothes worn should not resemble that of the opposite sex.
6. The clothes worn should not resemble that of the unbelievers i.e. they should not wear clothes that are specifically identities or symbols of the unbelievers religions.

4. Hijab includes conduct and behaviour among other things
Complete hijab, besides the six criteria of clothing, also includes the moral conduct, behaviour, attitude and intention of the individual. A person only fulfilling the criteria of hijab of the clothes is observing hijab in a limited sense. Hijab of the clothes should be accompanied by hijab of the eyes, hijab of the heart, hijab of thought and hijab of intention. It also includes the way a person walks, the way a person talks, the way he behaves, etc.

5. Hijab prevents molestation
The reason why Hijab is prescribed for women is mentioned in the Qur'n in the following verses of Surah Al-Ahab: "O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad); that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." [Al-Qur'n 33:59]

The Qur'n says that Hijab has been prescribed for the women so that they are recognized as modest women and this will also prevent them from being molested.

6. Example of twin sisters
Suppose two sisters who are twins, and who are equally beautiful, walk down the street. One of them is attired in the Islamic hijab i.e. the complete body is covered, except for the face and the hands up to the wrists. The other sister is wearing western clothes, a mini skirt or shorts. Just around the corner there is a hooligan or ruffian who is waiting for a catch, to tease a girl. Whom will he tease? The girl wearing the Islamic Hijab or the girl wearing the skirt or the mini? Naturally he will tease the girl wearing the skirt or the mini. Such dresses are an indirect invitation to the opposite sex for teasing and molestation. The Qur'n rightly says that hijab prevents women from being molested.

7. Capital punishment for the rapists
Under the Islamic shariah, a man convicted of having raped a woman, is given capital punishment. Many are astonished at this harsh sentence. Some even say that Islam is a ruthless, barbaric religion! I have asked a simple question to hundreds of non-Muslim men. Suppose, God forbid, someone rapes your wife, your mother or your sister. You are made the judge and the rapist is brought in front of you. What punishment would you give him? All of them said they would put him to death. Some went to the extent of saying they would torture him to death. To them I ask, if someone rapes your wife or your mother you want to put him to death. But if the same crime is committed on somebody elses wife or daughter you say capital punishment is barbaric. Why should there be double standards?

8. Western society falsely claims to have uplifted women
Western talk of womens liberalization is nothing but a disguised form of exploitation of her body, degradation of her soul, and deprivation of her honour. Western society claims to have uplifted women. On the contrary it has actually degraded them to the status of concubines, mistresses and society butterflies who are mere tools in the hands of pleasure seekers and sex marketeers, hidden behind the colourful screen of art and culture.

9. USA has one of the highest rates of rape
United States of America is supposed to be one of the most advanced countries of the world. It also has one of the highest rates of rape in any country in the world. According to a FBI report, in the year 1990, every day on an average 1756 cases of rape were committed in U.S.A alone. Later another report said that on an average everyday 1900 cases of rapes are committed in USA. The year was not mentioned. May be it was 1992 or 1993. May be the Americans got bolder in the following years.

Consider a scenario where the Islamic hijab is followed in America. Whenever a man looks at a woman and any brazen or unashamed thought comes to his mind, he lowers his gaze. Every woman wears the Islamic hijab, that is the complete body is covered except the face and the hands up to the wrist. After this if any man commits rape he is given capital punishment. I ask you, in such a scenario, will the rate of rape in America increase, will it remain the same, or will it decrease?

10. Implementation of Islamic Sharee'ah will reduce the rate of rapes
Naturally as soon as Islamic Sharee'ah is implemented positive results will be inevitable. If Islamic Sharee'ah is implemented in any part of the world, whether it is America or Europe, society will breathe easier. Hijab does not degrade a woman but uplifts a woman and protects her modesty and chastity.

Source- Allaahuakbar (http://www.allaahuakbar.net/misconceptions/)

acker
March 4, 2004, 08:07 PM
No matter how u argue for it , it appears to be done for the benifit of a lot of insecure men who are paranoid that their women will desert them for another man.
You may as well make them walk around in a cardboard box with a peep hole cut out of it.
Since these people have lost their identity already.
As for the post about how much better America , Australia , etc would be with sharia law
Well mmmm I dont agree totally but I do think a shift on a few laws to something along those lines would not be such a bad thing.
Re. Automatic sentencing and punishments for Rape , Child molestation , Murder , Assault etc
Because the Western legal system has lost touch with reality and with the average person.

fab
March 4, 2004, 10:03 PM
Thanks for the post Hasib, it was interesting.
Originally posted by acker
Re. Automatic sentencing and punishments for.. What do you mean by 'automatic sentencing'?

acker
March 4, 2004, 11:32 PM
"Automatic sentencing"
A set of punishments pre determined
For instance
"Murder"
(a) 15 years ( say accomplice )
(b) 25 years ( say 2nd degree homicide )
(c) Life ( say 1st degree homicide )
Once the severity has been judged the sentence automatically gets set at the above catagory that the judgement falls into.
The jury determines guilt or innocense and the severity of the crime.
This takes away the abnormalities of different judges dealing different penalties for simular crimes.
It will also take away the right of appeal against the punishment because the punishment is pre-set.
The only appeal can be against the guilty / not guilty verdict.
Their seems to be a lot of cases currently in the news here , where appeals board judges are overturning jury verdicts and sentencing on "points of law" in some cases causing needless re-trials where guilt still stands.
Some Australian judges may as well practice law on Mars , because thats how far out of touch they are with the Australian community.
Thats what I mean by "automatic sentencing" or a limited form of sharia.
It will also save heaps of money thats going down the throats of legal parasites.

fab
March 5, 2004, 01:18 AM
I think they tried something similar to what you are proposing in the NT for juvenile offenders. I don't think it worked out that well as they ended up sending first time offenders who stole packets of biscuits to gaol! The punishment should really fit the crime, and that type of pre-set punishment leaves little room for flexibility..

I also don't understand why the general public should have a say in the punishment of a crime.. Surely judges, barristers etc who have spent most of their lives studying the law would know better than lay people?

[Edited on 5-3-2004 by fab : ugh - can't spell]

Zobair
March 5, 2004, 04:21 PM
the article hasib posted says that according to a report published (FBI?) 1900 rape cases are reported on average per day. That makes for a staggering 693500 cases per year!!!!! That is absolutely shocking for an advanced democracy like US, with a apparently stable law and order system!!!! Makes you think!

[Edited on 5-3-2004 by pompous]

acker
March 5, 2004, 07:32 PM
Originally posted by fab


I also don't understand why the general public should have a say in the punishment of a crime.. Surely judges, barristers etc who have spent most of their lives studying the law would know better than lay people?

[Edited on 5-3-2004 by fab : ugh - can't spell]

Fab the general publics taxes pay for the judges , so I think they should have quite a bit of say on how the justice system they are paying for performs. Also if you look at the system a bit closer u may notice that the rich who can afford better legal representation get away with more than the poorer folk who can not afford as much legal power. A lot of the money the richer folk use to spend on this is from tax savings from minimizing what they pay the government in taxes. And a lot of the time they end up in court is because of disputes about how much tax they are paying. And the court system is mainly funded by the general public who cant afford the legal power those people can.
This is a vicious circle screwing the middle & poorer classes in this country , and making fat cats fatter from their toil , and letting the delinquent children of the fat cats enjoy the prospect of getting away with crimes that the rest of the community would be punished for.
The legal system in Australia is in urgent need of total overhaul.. :ninja:

Ockey
March 6, 2004, 06:44 PM
Fab the general publics taxes pay for the judges


The general publics taxes also pay for the public health care system and hence the general public has the right to determine what kind of surgery a patient should undertake!

acker
March 6, 2004, 06:55 PM
The general public has the right to have its opinion heard in relationship as to who is eligiable to receive the benifits of public health care , I would think their would be a tax payer uproar if it was discovered that Kerry & James Packer or Rupert & Lachlan Murdoch were getting their GP's to bulk bill their visits.

Ockey
March 6, 2004, 07:15 PM
By the same token the general public has the right to define what constitues a crime in a society but to actually take part in the legal proceeding and assign predetermined sentences for every possible crime is doing the job of the legal system.

Also, no two crime are the same and hence assigning predetermined prison terms for a crime would be unjust.

acker
March 6, 2004, 08:05 PM
scenario
2 identical crimes are committed by 2 identical villians
the only difference is that
villian (a) is rich and can spend $1 million dollars on his legal defence
villian (b) is poor and gets a legal defence provided by legal aid
I would expect villian (a) would get a much lighter sentance than villian (b)
Thats why I beleive the legal system stinks because it has been tainted by greed and money. And money tends to sway the verdicts handed out.

Hasib
March 6, 2004, 08:36 PM
geez... talk about changing topics!!! 1st it started of with tighter soccer uniforms. From there Veil... now the legal system!!!:fire:

crickipagol
March 7, 2004, 04:41 AM
Here is a bit of stat for you guys:

In Saudi Arabia, 60% marriages end up in divorce every year.

I guess, when the veil comes off, the truth comes out ;)

And to add more juice to it. In today's news, country's law makers are having tough time to control obesity among middle aged women. I guess, this group is the rest of the 40%, who survivied the marriage. :lol:

acker
March 7, 2004, 06:51 PM
then again maybe its the 60% who did'nt
maybe the veil is ok , but the shapeless body clothing has to go.
At least we've got back to the original topic , abiet for a brief detour..

reinausagi
March 7, 2004, 10:17 PM
Since the advent of sunscreen I have found the use of a veil to be redundant.

Both my grandmothers wore Burkhas and veils. My mother wore one until she was married. I believe that my dad advised her that she was a beautiful woman and neither the general populace of Dacca nor, that of Karachi would recoil in horror, should she show her face in public due to it's hediousness...

fab
March 8, 2004, 03:09 AM
acker, media sensationalisation or not, that kid was sent to prison for stealing some biscuits. What could they sensationalise about that? Even without the juicy bits the punishment just did not fit the crime..
tough time to control obesity among middle aged women.
Ugh.. while the skinny poor of the world starve, the fat rich folks eat their way to death. Humans are such nasty creatures, aren't we?

acker
March 8, 2004, 07:05 PM
So on 3 seperate occasions he stole buiscuts Fab ?
Probably addicted to Tim Tams.

fab
March 8, 2004, 10:17 PM
indeed.. THAT, or perhaps he planned to sell the biscuits at 500% profit and use the money to fund his petrol sniffing addiction.
(if i remember correctly, i think the first time he stole some stationery)

say
March 9, 2004, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by Hasib
I found this on the net.

Q3.Why does Islaam degrade women by keeping them behind the veil?


Hasib, you are one of the liveliest participants of this forum. I am really saddened to see you falling for this Propaganda material.

I know its not easy to discuss/question about the logical flaws of the Islamic thinking (Everyone will start thinking I am anti-religious or something like that ) but if you take a deeper look at these logics/arguments yourself, you'll see many of them doesn't make sense and are nothing but cheap propaganda.

Hasib
March 11, 2004, 01:30 AM
Everything is propaganda... somethings r good propaganda some r bad. Propaganda is something that is designed to change ppls minds

acker
March 11, 2004, 02:14 AM
Originally posted by fab
indeed.. THAT, or perhaps he planned to sell the biscuits at 500% profit and use the money to fund his petrol sniffing addiction.
(if i remember correctly, i think the first time he stole some stationery)

About time he steals a cigarette lighter then Fab.

Nasif
March 18, 2004, 11:20 PM
This article will shed more light on this topic. It is clean concise and to the point. I urge everyone to read it completely.

<hr>
INTRODUCTION:
God, the Most Gracious, Most Merciful, insists on making His religion easy, practical and enjoyable for His true believers.

God also told us that those who reject Him or His books are making life miserable for themselves and for their loved ones who follow in their footsteps. He reminds us in the Quran that He has placed no hardship on us in practicing our religion (see 22:78).

"You shall strive for the cause of GOD as you should strive for His cause. He has chosen you and has placed no hardship on you in practicing your religion - the religion of your father Abraham. ................................" 22:78


<b>THREE RULES FOR WOMEN DRESS CODE IN ISLAM </b>

1. THE BEST GARMENT, FIRST RULE :
[7:26] "O children of Adam, we have provided you with garments to cover your bodies, as well as for luxury. But the best garment is the garment of righteousness. These are some of GOD's signs, that they may take heed."

This is the BASIC rule of DRESS CODE in the Quran. This is the first rule in WOMEN DRESS CODE in Islam.

2. SECOND RULE, COVER YOUR BOSOMS:
The second rule can be found in 24:31. Here God orders the women to cover their bosoms whenever they dress up. But before quoting 24:31 let us review some crucial words that are always mentioned with this topic, namely "Hijab" and "Khimar"

2.1 THE WORD "HIJAB" in the QURAN
"Hijab" is the term used by many Muslims women to describe their head cover that may or may not include covering their face except their eyes, and sometimes covering also one eye. The Arabic word "Hijab" can be translated into veil or yashmak. Other meanings for the word "Hijab" include, screen, cover(ing), mantle, curtain, drapes, partition, division,
divider.

Can we find the word "Hijab" in the Quran?

The word "Hijab" appeared in the Quran 7 times, five of them as "Hijab" and two times as "Hijaban," these are 7:46, 33:53, 38:32, 41:5, 42:51, 17:45 & 19:17.

None of these "Hijab" words are used in the Quran in reference to what the traditional Muslims call today (Hijab) as a dress code for the Muslim woman.

Hijab in the Quran has nothing to do with the Muslim Women dress code.

2.2 HISTORICAL BACKGROUND:
While many Muslims call "Hijab", an Islamic dress code, they completely ignore the fact that, Hijab as a dress code has nothing to do with Islam and nothing to do with QURAN.

In reality "Hijab" is an old Jewish tradition that infiltrated into the hadith books like many innovations that contaminated Islam through alleged Hadith and Sunna. These in reality, came from Jewish origin. Any student of the Jewish traditions or religious books will see that head cover for the Jewish woman is encouraged by the Rabbis and religious leaders. Religious Jewish women still cover their heads most of the time and specially in the synagogues, weddings, and religious festivities.

Christian women cover their heads in many religious occasions while the nuns cover their heads all the time. This religious practice of covering the head was established from traditions thousands of years before the Muslim scholars claimed the Hijab as a Muslim dress code.

The traditional Arabs, of all religions, Jews, Christians and Muslims used to wear "Hijab," not because of Islam, but because of tradition. In Saudi Arabia, up to this minute most of the men cover their head , not because of Islam but because of tradition. Thank God this tradition has not been counted as Islamic dress code yet.

North Africa is known for its Tribe (Tuareg) that have the Muslim men wearing "Hijab" instead of women. Here the tradition has the hijab in reverse.

In brief, hijab is a traditional dress and has nothing to do with Islam or religion. In certain areas of the world, men are the ones who wear the hijab while in others the women do.

2.3 THE WORD "KHIMAR" in the QURAN:
"Khimar" is an Arabic word that can be found in the Quran in 24:31 While the first basic rule of Dress Code for the Muslim Women can be found in 7:26, the second rule of the DRESS CODE FOR WOMEN can be found in 24:31. Some Muslims quote verse 31 of sura 24 as containing the Hijab, or head cover, by pointing to the word, khomoorehenna, (from Khimar), forgetting that God already used the word Hijab, several times in the Quran.

Those blessed by God can see that the use of the word "Khimar" in this verse is not for "Hijab" or for head cover. Those who quote this verse usually add (Head cover) (veil) after the word Khomoorehenna, and usually between ( ), because it is their addition to the verse not God's.

2.4 THE VERSE
Here it is 24:31;
"And tell the believing women to subdue their eyes, and maintain their chastity. They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary. They shall cover their chests, (with their Khimar) and shall not relax this code in the presence of other than their husbands, their fathers, the fathers of their husbands, their sons, the sons of their husbands, their brothers, the sons of their brothers, the sons of their sisters, other women, the male servants or employees whose sexual drive has been nullified, or the children who have not reached puberty. They shall not strike their feet when they walk in order to shake and reveal certain details of their bodies. All of you shall repent to GOD, O you believers, that you may succeed."

"Khimar" is an Arabic word that means, cover, any cover, a curtain is a Khimar, a dress is a Khimar, a table cloth that covers the top of a table is a Khimar, a blanket can be used as a Khimar..etc. The word KHAMRA used for intoxicant in Arabic has the same root with Khimar, because both covers, the Khimar covers (a window, a body, a table . etc.) while KHAMRA covers the state of mind. Most of the translators, obviously influenced by Hadith (fabrications) translate the word as VEIL and thus mislead most people to believe that this verse is advocating the covering of the head.

In 24:31 God is asking the women to use their cover (khimar)( being a dress, a coat, a shawl, a shirt, a blouse, a scarf . . . etc.) to cover their bosoms, not their heads or their hairs. If God so willed to order the women to cover their heads or their hair, nothing would have prevented Him from doing so. GOD does not run out of words. GOD does not forget.

God did not order the women to cover their heads or their hair. He was not waiting for a Scholar to put the words for Him.

The Arabic word for CHEST, GAYB is in the verse (24:31), but the Arabic words for HEAD, (RAAS) or HAIR, (SHAAR) are NOT in this verse. The commandment in the verse is clear - COVER YOUR CHEST OR BOSOMS, but also the fabrication of the scholars and most of the translators is clear by claiming- cover your head or hair.

The last part of the verse (24:31) translates as, "They shall not strike their feet when they walk in order to shake and reveal certain details of their bodies." The details of the body can be revealed or not revealed by the dress you wear, not by your head cover.

Notice also the expression in 24:31, "They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary." This expression may sound vague to many because they have not understood the mercy of God.

Again God here used this very general term to give us the freedom to decide according to our own circumstances the definition of "Which is necessary". It is not up to a scholar or to any particular person to define this term. God wants to leave it personal for every woman and no one can take it away from her.

Women who follow the basic rule number one i.e. righteousness, will have no problem making the right decision to reveal only which is necessary. The word "zeenatahunna" in this verse refers to the woman's body parts (beauty) and not to ornaments and decorations as some people interpret it or translate it.

At the end of the verse, God told the women not to strike with their feet to show their "zeenatahunna". You do not need to strike your feet to show your ornaments but the way you strike your feet while walking can expose or shake certain parts of the body that do not need to be emphasized.

3. THIRD RULE OF DRESS CODE FOR WOMEN:
The first regulation of DRESS CODE for Muslim women is in 7:26, the second is in 24:31 and the third is in 33:59.

"O prophet, tell your wives, your daughters, and the wives of the believers that they shall LENGTHEN their
garments. Thus, they will be recognized and avoid being insulted. God is Forgiver, Most Merciful." 33:59

In 33:59, God sets the other regulation for the dress code for the Muslim women during the prophet's life. Although the verse is talking to the prophet which means this regulation applies to the time of the prophet, just like the order in 49:2, the description fits the spirit of Islam, and can teach us a great deal.

If you reflect on this verse and how God ordered the prophet to tell his wives, his daughters and the wives of the believers to lengthen their garments, you would understand the great wisdom of the MOST WISE, the MOST MERCIFUL. In this verse, God, DELIBERATELY, (and all the TRUE believers know that everything GOD says, does, or did is DELIBERATE) said, tell them, to lengthen their garments, and never said how long is long.

God could have said tell them to lengthen their garments to their ankles or to their mid-calf or to their knees, but HE DID NOT. He did not, OUT OF HIS MERCY, not because HE FORGOT as God does not forget. God knows that we will be living in different communities and have different cultures and insists that the minor details of this dress code will be left for the people of every community to hammer for themselves.

It is clear from the above verses that the DRESS CODE for the Muslim women according to the Quran is righteousness and modesty. God knows that this modesty will be understood differently in different communities and that is why He left it open to us to decide for ourselves.

Decide, after righteousness what is modesty. Modesty for a woman who lives in New York may not be accepted by a woman who lives in Pakistan. Modesty of a woman who lives in Cairo, Egypt may not be accepted by a woman who lives in Saudi Arabia. Modesty of a woman who lives in Jidda in Saudi Arabia may not be accepted by a woman who lives in a desert oasis in the same country.

This difference in the way we perceive modesty is well known to God, he created us, and He put NO hardship on us in this great religion. He left it to us to decide what modesty would be. For any person, knowledgeable or not to draw a line and make conclusion for God about the definition of modesty is to admit that he/she knows better than God. God left it open for us and no-one has the authority to restrict it, it has to stay open.

4. RELAXING THE DRESS CODE:
In the family setting, God put no hardship on the women, and permitted them to relax their dress code. If you reflect on the verses, 33:35 and 24:60, you will see that God did not give details of what this relaxation is, because every situation is different. A woman may relax her dress code in front of the four-year-old son of her brother but not as much in front of the 16 year old son.

[33:55] "The women may relax (their dress code) around their fathers, their sons, their brothers, the sons of
their brothers, the sons of their sisters, the other women, and their (female) servants. They shall reverence GOD. GOD witnesses all things."

[24:60] "The elderly women who do not expect to get married commit nothing wrong by relaxing their dress code, provided they do not reveal too much of their bodies. To maintain modesty is better for them. GOD is Hearer, Knower."

4. DRESS CODE FOR THE MOSQUES (MASJIDS):
[7:31] "O children of Adam, you shall be clean and dress nicely when you go to the masjid. And eat and
drink moderately; Surely, He does not love the gluttons."

5. HARDSHIP IN THIS RELIGION:
God, the MOST GRACIOUS, MOST MERCIFUL decided that those who will reject His complete book and go look for other sources for guidance will suffer in this life and in the HEREAFTER by their choice. God never put any hardship on the believers, but the scholars did, they invented their own laws in defiance of God, to regulate everything from the side of bed you sleep on, to which foot should step in the house, to what to do with a fly in your soup, to what to say when having intercourse with your spouse.

6. CONCLUSION:
God, the Most Merciful, gave us three basic rules for the Dress Code for Women in Islam,

(1) The BEST garment is the garment of righteousness.
(2) Whenever you dress , cover your chest (bosoms).
(3) Lengthen your garment.

While these three BASIC rules may not sound enough for those who do not trust God, the TRUE believers know that God is ENOUGH. God could have given us more details to the point of having graphs, designs and color rules, but He , the Most Merciful, wants to give us exactly these very basic rules and leave the rest for us. After these three basic rules every woman is more aware of her circumstances and can adjust her dress for her situation. Any addition to these basic Quranic rules is an attempt to correct God or improve on His merciful design.

We have no obligation to follow but God's rules. Innovations and fabrications that added thousands of rules to the women dress code are nothing but lies in the name of religion and should be refused.

STAY WITH GOD, that is where the winners go. May God bless us with His mercy and guidance.
<hr>

acker
March 19, 2004, 01:46 AM
"the male servants or employees whose sexual drive has been nullified"

I've cut the balls out of sheep , maybe I can make a few dollars by cutting them out of people.
Would someone like to send me , GeorgeW & Osama to cop a good old fashioned neutering.

Nasif
March 19, 2004, 01:57 AM
Originally posted by acker
"the male servants or employees whose sexual drive has been nullified"

I've cut the balls out of sheep , maybe I can make a few dollars by cutting them out of people.
Would someone like to send me , GeorgeW & Osama to cop a good old fashioned neutering.

Amazed at your thought process! This sentence is talking about the workers who are too young or too old to be sexually attracted to their employee.

Orpheus
March 19, 2004, 09:39 AM
I've cut the balls out of sheep , maybe I can make a few dollars by cutting them out of people.
the big question is- what were you doing with a sheep? You devil!





I think I need to go to bed or school. Need to stop Hasibbing in this forum!

[Edited on 19-3-2004 by Orpheus]

acker
March 19, 2004, 06:26 PM
Originally posted by Orpheus
I've cut the balls out of sheep , maybe I can make a few dollars by cutting them out of people.
the big question is- what were you doing with a sheep? You devil!"

Purely commercial purposes Orpheus , I grew up on a farm , male calves and lambs were always "marked" (an Australian grazing term for castrated).
Please also note I am from Australia not NEW ZEALAND where apparently men can marry thier sheep and probably often do.





I think I need to go to bed or school. Need to stop Hasibbing in this forum!

[Edited on 19-3-2004 by Orpheus]

sage
March 22, 2004, 08:33 PM
Originally posted by reinausagi
Since the advent of sunscreen I have found the use of a veil to be redundant.

Both my grandmothers wore Burkhas and veils. My mother wore one until she was married. I believe that my dad advised her that she was a beautiful woman and neither the general populace of Dacca nor, that of Karachi would recoil in horror, should she show her face in public due to it's hediousness...

That is the true use of Burkha. If you look at Arab male dress they also cover neck to toe. These dresses are to protect people from dessert heat. They where using this type of dress even before Islam. :cool:

Mridul
March 23, 2004, 09:14 AM
Originally posted by nasif
This article will shed more light on this topic. It is clean concise and to the point. I urge everyone to read it completely.

<hr>
INTRODUCTION:
God, the Most Gracious, Most Merciful, insists on making His religion easy, practical and enjoyable for His true believers.

God also told us that those who reject Him or His books are making life miserable for themselves and for their loved ones who follow in their footsteps. He reminds us in the Quran that He has placed no hardship on us in practicing our religion (see 22:78).

"You shall strive for the cause of GOD as you should strive for His cause. He has chosen you and has placed no hardship on you in practicing your religion - the religion of your father Abraham. ................................" 22:78


<b>THREE RULES FOR WOMEN DRESS CODE IN ISLAM </b>

1. THE BEST GARMENT, FIRST RULE :
[7:26] "O children of Adam, we have provided you with garments to cover your bodies, as well as for luxury. But the best garment is the garment of righteousness. These are some of GOD's signs, that they may take heed."

This is the BASIC rule of DRESS CODE in the Quran. This is the first rule in WOMEN DRESS CODE in Islam.

2. SECOND RULE, COVER YOUR BOSOMS:
The second rule can be found in 24:31. Here God orders the women to cover their bosoms whenever they dress up. But before quoting 24:31 let us review some crucial words that are always mentioned with this topic, namely "Hijab" and "Khimar"

2.1 THE WORD "HIJAB" in the QURAN
"Hijab" is the term used by many Muslims women to describe their head cover that may or may not include covering their face except their eyes, and sometimes covering also one eye. The Arabic word "Hijab" can be translated into veil or yashmak. Other meanings for the word "Hijab" include, screen, cover(ing), mantle, curtain, drapes, partition, division,
divider.

Can we find the word "Hijab" in the Quran?

The word "Hijab" appeared in the Quran 7 times, five of them as "Hijab" and two times as "Hijaban," these are 7:46, 33:53, 38:32, 41:5, 42:51, 17:45 & 19:17.

None of these "Hijab" words are used in the Quran in reference to what the traditional Muslims call today (Hijab) as a dress code for the Muslim woman.

Hijab in the Quran has nothing to do with the Muslim Women dress code.

2.2 HISTORICAL BACKGROUND:
While many Muslims call "Hijab", an Islamic dress code, they completely ignore the fact that, Hijab as a dress code has nothing to do with Islam and nothing to do with QURAN.

In reality "Hijab" is an old Jewish tradition that infiltrated into the hadith books like many innovations that contaminated Islam through alleged Hadith and Sunna. These in reality, came from Jewish origin. Any student of the Jewish traditions or religious books will see that head cover for the Jewish woman is encouraged by the Rabbis and religious leaders. Religious Jewish women still cover their heads most of the time and specially in the synagogues, weddings, and religious festivities.

Christian women cover their heads in many religious occasions while the nuns cover their heads all the time. This religious practice of covering the head was established from traditions thousands of years before the Muslim scholars claimed the Hijab as a Muslim dress code.

The traditional Arabs, of all religions, Jews, Christians and Muslims used to wear "Hijab," not because of Islam, but because of tradition. In Saudi Arabia, up to this minute most of the men cover their head , not because of Islam but because of tradition. Thank God this tradition has not been counted as Islamic dress code yet.

North Africa is known for its Tribe (Tuareg) that have the Muslim men wearing "Hijab" instead of women. Here the tradition has the hijab in reverse.

In brief, hijab is a traditional dress and has nothing to do with Islam or religion. In certain areas of the world, men are the ones who wear the hijab while in others the women do.

2.3 THE WORD "KHIMAR" in the QURAN:
"Khimar" is an Arabic word that can be found in the Quran in 24:31 While the first basic rule of Dress Code for the Muslim Women can be found in 7:26, the second rule of the DRESS CODE FOR WOMEN can be found in 24:31. Some Muslims quote verse 31 of sura 24 as containing the Hijab, or head cover, by pointing to the word, khomoorehenna, (from Khimar), forgetting that God already used the word Hijab, several times in the Quran.

Those blessed by God can see that the use of the word "Khimar" in this verse is not for "Hijab" or for head cover. Those who quote this verse usually add (Head cover) (veil) after the word Khomoorehenna, and usually between ( ), because it is their addition to the verse not God's.

2.4 THE VERSE
Here it is 24:31;
"And tell the believing women to subdue their eyes, and maintain their chastity. They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary. They shall cover their chests, (with their Khimar) and shall not relax this code in the presence of other than their husbands, their fathers, the fathers of their husbands, their sons, the sons of their husbands, their brothers, the sons of their brothers, the sons of their sisters, other women, the male servants or employees whose sexual drive has been nullified, or the children who have not reached puberty. They shall not strike their feet when they walk in order to shake and reveal certain details of their bodies. All of you shall repent to GOD, O you believers, that you may succeed."

"Khimar" is an Arabic word that means, cover, any cover, a curtain is a Khimar, a dress is a Khimar, a table cloth that covers the top of a table is a Khimar, a blanket can be used as a Khimar..etc. The word KHAMRA used for intoxicant in Arabic has the same root with Khimar, because both covers, the Khimar covers (a window, a body, a table . etc.) while KHAMRA covers the state of mind. Most of the translators, obviously influenced by Hadith (fabrications) translate the word as VEIL and thus mislead most people to believe that this verse is advocating the covering of the head.

In 24:31 God is asking the women to use their cover (khimar)( being a dress, a coat, a shawl, a shirt, a blouse, a scarf . . . etc.) to cover their bosoms, not their heads or their hairs. If God so willed to order the women to cover their heads or their hair, nothing would have prevented Him from doing so. GOD does not run out of words. GOD does not forget.

God did not order the women to cover their heads or their hair. He was not waiting for a Scholar to put the words for Him.

The Arabic word for CHEST, GAYB is in the verse (24:31), but the Arabic words for HEAD, (RAAS) or HAIR, (SHAAR) are NOT in this verse. The commandment in the verse is clear - COVER YOUR CHEST OR BOSOMS, but also the fabrication of the scholars and most of the translators is clear by claiming- cover your head or hair.

The last part of the verse (24:31) translates as, "They shall not strike their feet when they walk in order to shake and reveal certain details of their bodies." The details of the body can be revealed or not revealed by the dress you wear, not by your head cover.

Notice also the expression in 24:31, "They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary." This expression may sound vague to many because they have not understood the mercy of God.

Again God here used this very general term to give us the freedom to decide according to our own circumstances the definition of "Which is necessary". It is not up to a scholar or to any particular person to define this term. God wants to leave it personal for every woman and no one can take it away from her.

Women who follow the basic rule number one i.e. righteousness, will have no problem making the right decision to reveal only which is necessary. The word "zeenatahunna" in this verse refers to the woman's body parts (beauty) and not to ornaments and decorations as some people interpret it or translate it.

At the end of the verse, God told the women not to strike with their feet to show their "zeenatahunna". You do not need to strike your feet to show your ornaments but the way you strike your feet while walking can expose or shake certain parts of the body that do not need to be emphasized.

3. THIRD RULE OF DRESS CODE FOR WOMEN:
The first regulation of DRESS CODE for Muslim women is in 7:26, the second is in 24:31 and the third is in 33:59.

"O prophet, tell your wives, your daughters, and the wives of the believers that they shall LENGTHEN their
garments. Thus, they will be recognized and avoid being insulted. God is Forgiver, Most Merciful." 33:59

In 33:59, God sets the other regulation for the dress code for the Muslim women during the prophet's life. Although the verse is talking to the prophet which means this regulation applies to the time of the prophet, just like the order in 49:2, the description fits the spirit of Islam, and can teach us a great deal.

If you reflect on this verse and how God ordered the prophet to tell his wives, his daughters and the wives of the believers to lengthen their garments, you would understand the great wisdom of the MOST WISE, the MOST MERCIFUL. In this verse, God, DELIBERATELY, (and all the TRUE believers know that everything GOD says, does, or did is DELIBERATE) said, tell them, to lengthen their garments, and never said how long is long.

God could have said tell them to lengthen their garments to their ankles or to their mid-calf or to their knees, but HE DID NOT. He did not, OUT OF HIS MERCY, not because HE FORGOT as God does not forget. God knows that we will be living in different communities and have different cultures and insists that the minor details of this dress code will be left for the people of every community to hammer for themselves.

It is clear from the above verses that the DRESS CODE for the Muslim women according to the Quran is righteousness and modesty. God knows that this modesty will be understood differently in different communities and that is why He left it open to us to decide for ourselves.

Decide, after righteousness what is modesty. Modesty for a woman who lives in New York may not be accepted by a woman who lives in Pakistan. Modesty of a woman who lives in Cairo, Egypt may not be accepted by a woman who lives in Saudi Arabia. Modesty of a woman who lives in Jidda in Saudi Arabia may not be accepted by a woman who lives in a desert oasis in the same country.

This difference in the way we perceive modesty is well known to God, he created us, and He put NO hardship on us in this great religion. He left it to us to decide what modesty would be. For any person, knowledgeable or not to draw a line and make conclusion for God about the definition of modesty is to admit that he/she knows better than God. God left it open for us and no-one has the authority to restrict it, it has to stay open.

4. RELAXING THE DRESS CODE:
In the family setting, God put no hardship on the women, and permitted them to relax their dress code. If you reflect on the verses, 33:35 and 24:60, you will see that God did not give details of what this relaxation is, because every situation is different. A woman may relax her dress code in front of the four-year-old son of her brother but not as much in front of the 16 year old son.

[33:55] "The women may relax (their dress code) around their fathers, their sons, their brothers, the sons of
their brothers, the sons of their sisters, the other women, and their (female) servants. They shall reverence GOD. GOD witnesses all things."

[24:60] "The elderly women who do not expect to get married commit nothing wrong by relaxing their dress code, provided they do not reveal too much of their bodies. To maintain modesty is better for them. GOD is Hearer, Knower."

4. DRESS CODE FOR THE MOSQUES (MASJIDS):
[7:31] "O children of Adam, you shall be clean and dress nicely when you go to the masjid. And eat and
drink moderately; Surely, He does not love the gluttons."

5. HARDSHIP IN THIS RELIGION:
God, the MOST GRACIOUS, MOST MERCIFUL decided that those who will reject His complete book and go look for other sources for guidance will suffer in this life and in the HEREAFTER by their choice. God never put any hardship on the believers, but the scholars did, they invented their own laws in defiance of God, to regulate everything from the side of bed you sleep on, to which foot should step in the house, to what to do with a fly in your soup, to what to say when having intercourse with your spouse.

6. CONCLUSION:
God, the Most Merciful, gave us three basic rules for the Dress Code for Women in Islam,

(1) The BEST garment is the garment of righteousness.
(2) Whenever you dress , cover your chest (bosoms).
(3) Lengthen your garment.

While these three BASIC rules may not sound enough for those who do not trust God, the TRUE believers know that God is ENOUGH. God could have given us more details to the point of having graphs, designs and color rules, but He , the Most Merciful, wants to give us exactly these very basic rules and leave the rest for us. After these three basic rules every woman is more aware of her circumstances and can adjust her dress for her situation. Any addition to these basic Quranic rules is an attempt to correct God or improve on His merciful design.

We have no obligation to follow but God's rules. Innovations and fabrications that added thousands of rules to the women dress code are nothing but lies in the name of religion and should be refused.

STAY WITH GOD, that is where the winners go. May God bless us with His mercy and guidance.
<hr>


this arcticle is taken from 'submission'...right? r not we also sopposed to look at the hadith for this topic to see what Prophet Muhammed (Peacebe upon him) said about dress code for Muslim women?

al Furqaan
April 13, 2004, 01:39 PM
"This command is to dress modestly so that you aren't insulted or "fielded" at when you are outside. There is no indication of any kind of head to toe covering. It is impossible to enforce head to toe covering command based on this.

Well, I didn't want this thread to turn into Quran discussion, but it was inevitable."

this was said by someone in a previous post (i will edit my post and put that persons name).

if the object of long clothes is to be modest, then one should infer that the longer and looser the clothing the more modest the dress. and being a muslim, should we not strive to be as modest as possible? then we can conclude that even if a burkha is not required by whatever liberal interepretation of the quran we have, it cannot be haram. in fact, a women who chooses to wear a burkha has infinitely more respect than these semi-nude western women!

Nasif
April 13, 2004, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by al Furqaan
this was said by someone in a previous post (i will edit my post and put that persons name).

if the object of long clothes is to be modest, then one should infer that the longer and looser the clothing the more modest the dress. and being a muslim, should we not strive to be as modest as possible? then we can conclude that even if a burkha is not required by whatever liberal interepretation of the quran we have, it cannot be haram. in fact, a women who chooses to wear a burkha has infinitely more respect than these semi-nude western women!

That someone is me. Your point is valid so long as one does not say wearing burka is a religious requirement. You can not create laws that is not authorized by God. If a woman want to wear burka for herself, there's nothing wrong with it. But when a mullah or religious leader says that every woman must wear burka then we have a problem. Because that is not an Islamic law.

There is difference between what is personal preference and what is a general law. The general law of dressing in Islam is modesty (which is defined by the culture a woman is in). And no one has any authority to create religious laws, other than God. So you see, you can't come up with a law that says every woman must wear burka.

fab
May 17, 2004, 10:53 PM
We didn't WE think of this!

Rabbis spark wig burning rumpus
Orthodox Jews in New York and Israel have been burning wigs made of Indian human hair after rabbis ruled they may contravene religious law.

Hundreds gathered in the Brooklyn suburb of Williamsburg on Sunday to ignite a bonfire of more than 300 wigs.

Orthodox women often wear wigs because custom requires that they cover their own hair in public once married.

Indian wigs were declared non-kosher after Israeli rabbis discovered the hair was often cut at Hindu ceremonies.

Orthodox law forbids use of any items used in what they consider to be idol worship.

Last Wednesday, a revered Israeli Orthodox Jewish rabbi, Shalom Yosef Elyashiv, issued the ban on wigs made with the offending hair.

'100% kosher'

In Israel, lists were drawn up of places where banned wigs were sold and, in the religious city of Bnei Brak, some people gathered up offending wigs and cast them into fires, Haaretz newspaper reported.

Wig shops in New York City, with its large Orthodox Jewish community, are facing a similar concern.

Owners said frantic customers have been phoning to check where their wigs came from.

And some women have resorted to wearing less comfortable synthetic wigs or have adopted hats or hair nets.

But it is not merely religious concerns that are prompting the panic - human hair wigs can cost up to $1,000 and it could prove expensive if a woman finds her wig does not conform to the ruling.

Not taking any chances, Yaffa's Quality Wigs shop in New York left a recorded message on its phone, reassuring customers its wigs were "100% kosher".

Nasif
May 17, 2004, 11:28 PM
LOL :D

Loop hole in the law ;)

priests, rabbis, mullahs, hujurs shob eki goru, ek ghate jol khai


PS: Williamsburg area is around 12/13 miles from i live

[Edited on 18-5-2004 by nasif]

Mridul
May 20, 2004, 12:23 AM
priests, rabbis, mullahs, hujurs shob eki goru, ek ghate jol khai


[Edited on 18-5-2004 by nasif]


they all r not same...some of them are good......u should respect them atleast

Nasif
May 20, 2004, 12:37 AM
No doubt there are good ones. Personally, I am yet to see one.

I dislike anyone who makes a living out of religious preaching. This is my personal feeling. No one should make money/living out of spreading God's word/message. When someone does that, they usally end up corrupting themselves when they are faced with situation where they have to protect their career. As their career is religion they end up corrupting it.

God's religion is not for sale. :)

say
May 20, 2004, 09:25 AM
Originally posted by nasif
No doubt there are good ones. Personally, I am yet to see one.

I dislike anyone who makes a living out of religious preaching. This is my personal feeling. No one should make money/living out of spreading God's word/message. When someone does that, they usally end up corrupting themselves when they are faced with situation where they have to protect their career. As their career is religion they end up corrupting it.

God's religion is not for sale. :)

Amen!!

Nasif, you are one mullah I'm becoming a fan of :P:P:P

rafiq
May 20, 2004, 04:53 PM
Nasif lead us out the darkness and we shall follow!

The 100% kosher wig story is 100% identical to the 100% halal soap issue in Bangladesh. There are orthodox jews and orthodox Bangladeshi Muslims apparently ready to die for this. I wish they would burn themselves along with the offending wigs and soap.

Custom and law are two separate things. Much of religion is open to interpretation, otherwise we would all be in agreement.

Mridul
July 12, 2004, 12:33 AM
The Veil (http://members.optusnet.com.au/mohamad85/Hijab/)

Nasif
July 12, 2004, 01:03 AM
I will reiterate that veil is a personal and cultural choice. This is not part of faith. God never forced an order of veil on women. Attributing this fake order to God is a severe offense in sight of Quran.

Inventing prohibitions/orders and attributing them to God is strictly forbidden.
Quran

[16:116]
You shall not utter lies with your own tongues stating: "This is lawful, and this is unlawful," to fabricate lies and attribute them to GOD. Surely, those who fabricate lies and attribute them to GOD will never succeed.

[5:103]
GOD did not prohibit livestock that begets certain combinations of males and females, nor livestock liberated by an oath, nor the one that begets two males in a row, nor the bull that fathers ten. It is the disbelievers who invented such lies about GOD. Most of them do not understand.

[6:93]
Who is more evil than one who fabricates lies and attributes them to GOD,... <i>(This verse is repeated several times throughout the Quran)</i>

[6:144]
".... Were you witnesses when GOD decreed such prohibitions for you? Who is more evil than those who invent such lies and attribute them to GOD? They thus mislead the people without knowledge. GOD does not guide such evil people."


16:116 specifically states that we cannot attribute a law to God's name if it is not in Quran. People's personal opinion/interpretation is not God's law.

5:103, 6:93, 6:144 gives examples of previous generations who have invented fake prohibitions and attributed them to God.

Therefore, we should not say hijab is part of faith. Rather, it is a traditional, cultural, and personal choice; originally used by Arab jew women long before Muhammad's time. They kept the tradition alive even after they were converted.

[Edited on 12-7-2004 by nasif]

Mridul
July 12, 2004, 06:31 AM
Question:

Could u please supply me with some qoutes from the Hadith and Quran on the impotance of hijab for women.

Answer:

Praise be to Allaah.

Verses that have to do with hijab:

1 Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

And tell the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts) and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparent (like both eyes for necessity to see the way, or outer palms of hands or one eye or dress like veil, gloves, headcover, apron), and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms) and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husbands fathers, or their sons, or their husbands sons, or their brothers or their brothers sons, or their sisters sons, or their (Muslim) women (i.e. their sisters in Islam), or the (female) slaves whom their right hands possess, or old male servants who lack vigour, or small children who have no sense of feminine sex. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And all of you beg Allaah to forgive you all, O believers, that you may be successful

[al-Noor 24:31]

2 Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

And as for women past childbearing who do not expect wedlock, it is no sin on them if they discard their (outer) clothing in such a way as not to show their adornment. But to refrain (i.e. not to discard their outer clothing) is better for them. And Allaah is All‑Hearer, All‑Knower

[al-Noor 24:60]

Women past childbearing are those who no longer menstruate, so they can no longer get pregnant or bear children.

We shall see below the words of Hafsah bint Sireen and the way in which she interpreted this verse.

3 Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies (i.e. screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allaah is Ever Oft‑Forgiving, Most Merciful

[al-Ahzaab 33:59]

4 Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

O you who believe! Enter not the Prophets houses, unless permission is given to you for a meal, (and then) not (so early as) to wait for its preparation. But when you are invited, enter, and when you have taken your meal, disperse without sitting for a talk. Verily, such (behaviour) annoys the Prophet, and he is shy of (asking) you (to go); but Allaah is not shy of (telling you) the truth. And when you ask (his wives) for anything you want, ask them from behind a screen, that is purer for your hearts and for their hearts. And it is not (right) for you that you should annoy Allaahs Messenger, nor that you should ever marry his wives after him (his death). Verily, with Allaah that shall be an enormity

[al-Ahzaab 33:53]

With regard to the Ahaadeeth:

1 It was narrated from Safiyyah bint Shaybah that Aaishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) used to say: When these words were revealed and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms) they took their izaars (a kind of garment) and tore them from the edges and covered their faces with them.

Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4481. The following version was narrated by Abu Dawood (4102):

May Allaah have mercy on the Muhaajir women. When Allaah revealed the words and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms), they tore the thickest of their aprons (a kind of garment) and covered their faces with them.

Shaykh Muhammad al-Ameen al-Shanqeeti (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

This hadeeth clearly states that what the Sahaabi women mentioned here understood from this verse and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms) was that they were to cover their faces, and that they tore their garments and covered their faces with them, in obedience to the command of Allaah in the verse where He said and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms) which meant covering their faces. Thus the fair-minded person will understand that womans observing hijab and covering her face in front of men is established in the saheeh Sunnah that explains the Book of Allaah. Aaishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) praised those women for hastening to follow the command of Allaah given in His Book. It is known that their understanding of the words and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms) as meaning covering the face came from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), because he was there and they asked him about everything that they did not understand about their religion. And Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

And We have also sent down unto you (O Muhammad) the Dhikr [reminder and the advice (i.e. the Quraan)], that you may explain clearly to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought

[al-Nahl 16:44]

Ibn Hajar said in Fath al-Baari: There is a report of Ibn Abi Haatim via Abd-Allaah ibn Uthmaan ibn Khaytham from Safiyyah that explains that. This report says: We mentioned the women of Quraysh and their virtues in the presence of Aaishah and she said: The women of Quraysh are good, but by Allaah I have never seen any better than the women of the Ansaar, or any who believed the Book of Allaah more strongly or had more faith in the Revelation. When Soorat al-Noor was revealed and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms) their menfolk came to them and recited to them what had been revealed, and there was not one woman among them who did not go to her apron, and the following morning they prayed wrapped up as if there were crows on their heads. It was also narrated clearly in the report of al-Bukhaari narrated above, where we see Aaishah (may Allaah be pleased with her), who was so knowledgeable and pious, praising them in this manner and stating that she had never seen any women who believed the Book of Allaah more strongly or had more faith in the Revelation. This clearly indicates that they understood from this verse and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms) that it was obligatory to cover their faces and that this stemmed from their belief in the Book of Allaah and their faith in the Revelation. It also indicates that womens observing hijab in front of men and covering their faces is an act of belief in the Book of Allaah and faith in the Revelation. It is very strange indeed that some of those who claim to have knowledge say that there is nothing in the Quraan or Sunnah that says that women have to cover their faces in front of non-mahram men, even though the Sahaabi women did that in obedience to the command of Allaah in His Book, out of faith in the Revelation, and that this meaning is also firmly entrenched in the Sunnah, as in the report from al-Bukhaari quoted above. This is among the strongest evidence that all Muslim women are obliged to observe hijab.

Adwa al-Bayaan, 6/594-595.

2 It was narrated from Aaishah that the wives of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to go out at night to al-Manaasi (well known places in the direction of al-Baqee) to relieve themselves and Umar used to say to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), Let your wives be veiled. But the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did not do that. Then one night Sawdah bint Zamah, the wife of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), went out at Isha time and she was a tall woman. Umar called out to her: We have recognized you, O Sawdah! hoping that hijab would be revealed, then Allaah revealed the verse of hijab.

Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 146; Muslim, 2170.

3 It was narrated from Ibn Shihaab that Anas said: I am the most knowledgeable of people about hijab. Ubayy ibn Kab used to ask me about it. When the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) married Zaynab bint Jahsh, whom he married in Madeenah, he invited the people to a meal after the sun had risen. The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) sat down and some men sat around him after the people had left, until the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) stood up and walked a while, and I walked with him, until he reached the door of Aaishahs apartment. Then he thought that they had left so he went back and I went back with him, and they were still sitting there. He went back again, and I went with him, until he reached the door of Aaishahs apartment, then he came back and I came back with him, and they had left. Then he drew a curtain between me and him, and the verse of hijab was revealed.

Al-Bukhaari, 5149; Muslim, 1428.

4 It was narrated from Urwah that Aaishah said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to pray Fajr and the believing women would attend (the prayer) with him, wrapped in their aprons, then they would go back to their houses and no one would recognize them.

Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 365; Muslim, 645.

5 It was narrated that Aaishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) said: The riders used to pass by us when we were with the Messenger of Allaah (S) in ihraam, and when they drew near to us we would lower our jilbabs from our heads over our faces, then when they had passed we would uncover them again.

Narrated by Abu Dawood, 1833; Ibn Maajah, 2935; classed as saheeh by Ibn Khuzaymah (4,203) and by al-Albaani in Kitaab Jilbaab al-Marah al-Muslimah.

6 It was narrated that Asma bint Abi Bakr said: We used to cover our faces in front of men.

Narrated by Ibn Khuzaymah, 4/203; al-Haakim, 1/624. He classed it as saheeh and al-Dhahabi agreed with him. It was also classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Jilbaab al-Marah al-Muslimah.

7 It was narrated that Aasim al-Ahwaal said: We used to enter upon Hafsah bint Sireen who had put her jilbab thus and covered her face with it, and we would say to her: May Allaah have mercy on you. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): And as for women past childbearing who do not expect wedlock, it is no sin on them if they discard their (outer) clothing in such a way as not to show their adornment [al-Noor 24:60]. And she would say to us: What comes after that? We would say: But to refrain (i.e. not to discard their outer clothing) is better for them. And she would say: That is confirming the idea of hijab.

Narrated by al-Bayhaqi, 7/93.

For more information please see Question no. 6991.

And Allaah knows best.



Islam Q&A (www.islam-qa.com)

Mridul
July 12, 2004, 06:33 AM
Question 6991

Question :


I wanted to know about a matter consurning the RIGHT hijaab
What is the proper hijaab? I mean so many differnt hijaabs are to choose from, And I have this friend from Denmark and she converted to Islam for a while now, and she's pleased ( ALhamduli_Allah) and she want to wear the right Hijaab.
Could you please tell us wear it says that the hijaab SHOULD be LONG (JILBAAB) over the cheas! she really needs this! thank you


Answer:

Praise be to Allaah.

Shaykh al-Albaani (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

The conditions of hijaab:

Firstly:

(It should cover all the body apart from whatever has been exempted).

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies (i.e. screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allaah is Ever Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

This aayah clearly states that it is obligatory to cover all of a womans beauty and adornments and not to display any part of that before non-mahram men (strangers) except for whatever appears unintentionally, in which case there will be no sin on them if they hasten to cover it up.

Al-Haafiz ibn Katheer said in his Tafseer:

This means that they should not display any part of their adornment to non-mahrams, apart from that which it is impossible to conceal. Ibn Masood said: such as the cloak and robe, i.e., what the women of the Arabs used to wear, an outer garment which covered whatever the woman was wearing, except for whatever appeared from beneath the outer garment. There is no sin on a woman with regard to this because it is impossible to conceal it.

Secondly

(it should not be an adornment in and of itself).

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

and not to show off their adornment [al-Noor 24:31]. The general meaning of this phrase includes the outer garment, because if it is decorated it will attract mens attention to her. This is supported by the aayah in Soorat al-Ahzaab (interpretation of the meaning):

And stay in your houses, and do not display yourselves like that of the times of ignorance [al-Ahzaab 33:33]. It is also supported by the hadeeth in which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: There are three, do not ask me about them: a man who leaves the jamaaah, disobeys his leader and dies disobedient; a female or male slave who runs away then dies; and a woman whose husband is absent and left her with everything she needs, and after he left she made a wanton display of herself. Do not ask about them.

(Narrated by al-Haakim, 1/119; Ahmad, 6/19; from the hadeeth of Faddaalah bint Ubayd. Its isnaad is saheeh and it is in al-Adab al-Mufrad).

Thirdly:

(It should be thick and not transparent or see-thru)

- because it cannot cover properly otherwise. Transparent or see-thru clothing makes a woman more tempting and beautiful. Concerning this the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: During the last days of my ummah there will be women who are clothed but naked, with something on their heads like the humps of camels. Curse them, for they are cursed. Another hadeeth adds: They will not enter Paradise or even smell its fragrance, although its fragrance can be detected from such and such a distance.

(Narrated by Muslim from the report of Abu Hurayrah).

Ibn Abd al-Barr said: what the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) meant was women who wear clothes made of light fabric which describes and does not cover. They are clothed in name but naked in reality.

Transmitted by al-Suyooti in Tanweer al-Hawaalik, 3/103.

Fourthly:

(It should be loose, not tight so that it describes any part of the body).

The purpose of clothing is to prevent fitnah (temptation), and this can only be achieved if clothes are wide and loose. Tight clothes, even if they conceal the colour of the skin, still describe the size and shape of the body or part of it, and create a vivid image in the minds of men. The corruption or invitation to corruption that is inherent in that is quite obvious. So the clothes must be wide. Usaamah ibn Zayd said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) gave me a thick Egyptian garment that was one of the gifts given to him by Duhyat al-Kalbi, and I gave it to my wife to wear. He said, Why do I not see you wearing that Egyptian garment? I said, I gave it to my wife to wear. He said, Tell her to wear a gown underneath it, for I am afraid that it may describe the size of her bones. (Narrated by al-Diyaa al-Maqdisi in al-Ahaadeeth al-Mukhtaarah, 1/442, and by Ahmad and al-Bayhaqi, with a hasan isnaad).

Fifthly:

(It should not be perfumed with bakhoor or fragrance)

There are many ahaadeeth which forbid women to wear perfume when they go out of their houses. We will quote here some of those which have saheeh isnaads:

Abu Moosa al-Ashari said: the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: Any woman who puts on perfume then passes by people so that they can smell her fragrance, is an adulteress.

Zaynab al-Thaqafiyyah reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: If any one of you (women) goes out to the Masjid, let her not touch any perfume.

Abu Hurayrah said: the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: Any woman who has scented herself with bakhoor (incense), let her not attend Ishaa prayers with us.

Moosa ibn Yassaar said that a woman passed by Abu Hurayrah and her scent was overpowering. He said, O female slave of al-Jabbaar, are you going to the Masjid? She said, Yes, He said, And have you put on perfume because of that? She said, Yes. He said, Go back and wash yourself, for I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: If a woman comes out to the Masjid and her fragrance is overpowering, Allaah will not accept any prayer from her until she goes home and washes herself.

These ahaadeeth are general in implication. Just as the prohibition covers perfume applied to the body, it also covers perfume applied to the clothes, especially in the third hadeeth, where bakhoor (incense) is mentioned, because incense is used specifically to perfume the clothes.

The reason for this prohibition is quite clear, which is that womens fragrance may cause undue provocation of desires. The scholars also included other things under this heading of things to be avoided by women who want to go to the Masjid, such as beautiful clothes, jewellery that can be seen, excessive adornments and mingling with men. See Fath al-Baari, 2/279.

Ibn Daqeeq al-Eed said:

This indicates that it is forbidden for a woman who wants to go to the Masjid to wear perfume, because this causes provocation of mens desires. This was reported by al-Manaawi in Fayd al-Qadeer, in the commentary on the first hadeeth of Abu Hurayrah quoted above.

Sixthly:

(It should not resemble the clothing of men)

It was reported in the saheeh ahaadeeth that a woman who imitates men in dress or in other ways is cursed. There follow some of the ahaadeeth that we know:

Abu Hurayrah said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) cursed the man who wears womens clothes, and the woman who wears mens clothes.

Abd-Allaah ibn Amr said: I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: They are not part of us, the women who imitate men and the men who imitate women.

Ibn Abbaas said: The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) cursed effeminate men and masculine women. He said, Throw them out of your houses. He said: The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) expelled So and so, and Umar expelled So and so. According to another version: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) cursed men who imitate women and women who imitate men.

Abd-Allaah ibn Amr said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: There are three who will not enter Paradise and Allaah will not even look at them on the Day of Resurrection: one who disobeys his parents, a woman who imitates men, and the duyooth (cuckold, weak man who feels no jealousy over his womenfolk).

Ibn Abi Maleekah whose name was Abd-Allaah ibn Ubayd-Allaah said: It was said to Aaishah (may Allaah be pleased with her), What if a woman wears (mens) sandals? She said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) cursed women who act like men.

These ahaadeeth clearly indicate that it is forbidden for women to imitate men and vice versa, This usually includes dress and other matters, apart from the first hadeeth quoted above, which refers to dress only.

Abu Dawood said, in Masaail al-Imaam Ahmad (p. 261): I heard Ahmad being asked about a man who dresses his slave woman in a tunic. He said, Do not clothe her in mens garments, do not make her look like a man. Abu Dawood said: I said to Ahmad, Can he give her bachelor sandals to wear? He said, No, unless she wears them to do wudoo. I said, What about for beauty? He said, No. I said, Can he cut her hair short? He said, No.

Seventhly:

(It should not resemble the dress of kaafir women).

It is stated in shareeah that Muslims, men and women alike, should not resemble or imitate the kuffaar with regard to worship, festivals or clothing that is specific to them. This is an important Islamic principle which nowadays, unfortunately, is neglected by many Muslims, even those who care about religion and calling others to Islam. This is due either to ignorance of their religion, or because they are following their own whims and desires, or because of deviation, combined with modern customs and imitation of kaafir Europe. This was one of the causes of the Muslims decline and weakness, which enabled the foreigners to overwhelm and colonize them. Verily, Allaah will not change the condition of a people as long as they do not change their state themselves [al-Rad 13:11 interpretation of the meaning]. If only they knew.

It should be known that there is a great deal of saheeh evidence for these important rules in the Quraan and Sunnah, and that the evidence in the Quraan is elaborated upon in the Sunnah, as is always the case.

Eighthly:

(It should not be a garment of fame and vanity).

Ibn Umar (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: Whoever wears a garment of fame and vanity in this world, Allaah will clothe him in a garment of humiliation on the Day of Resurrection, then He will cause Fire to flame up around him.

(Hijaab al-Marah al-Muslimah, p. 54-67).

And Allaah knows best.



Hijaab al-Marah al-Muslimah, p. 54-67 (www.islam-qa.com)

Navarene
July 12, 2004, 07:11 AM
http://graphics.nytimes.com/library/world/mideast/082600for-kash.1.jpg

Mridul, is this the way you want to see women in general to be covered?

About being veiled or un-veiled, I find it simple and clear: my body and purity is all MINE. Now leave me alone and let me decide whether to put myself in veil or not.

[Edited on 12-7-2004 by Navarene]

Mridul
July 12, 2004, 07:58 AM
Originally posted by Navarene
http://graphics.nytimes.com/library/world/mideast/082600for-kash.1.jpg

Mridul, is this the way you want to see women in general to be covered?

About being veiled or un-veiled, I find it simple and clear: my body and purity is all MINE. Now leave me alone and let me decide whether to put myself in veil or not.

[Edited on 12-7-2004 by Navarene]

In my personal opinion, covering the face is better. And as far as I understand, it is not compulsury on muslim women to cover their face. I may be wrong though and Allah knows best.

BushidoTiger
July 17, 2004, 07:26 AM
I'd been trying hard not to read this thread knowing very well that it could be a controversial one. Sure enough, there are several points of views presented from all kind of religious scholars.

Contrary to Western media report, Muslims are not a monolithical group and we vary in our opinions on this sensative topic.

I've found (and happened to agree quite a bit) on the Hijab issue in the following article - which will give yet another viewpoint:
*******************************

WOMEN DRESS CODE IN ISLAM

by Ahmed Okla

SUMMARY:

Quran is very clear about the dress code for the believers. Innovations and fabrication intorduced Hijab (veil) to Islam (submission.) Hijab (veil) is a traditional, not religious head cover that dates back to ancient civilizations, and is not supported or advocated by the Quran.

INTRODUCTION:

God, the Most Gracious, Most Merciful, insists on making His religion easy, practical and enjoyable for His true believers. God also told us that those who reject Him or His books are making life miserable for themselves and for their loved ones who follow in their footsteps.

He reminds us in the Quran that He has placed no hardship on us in practicing our religion (see 22:78).

"You shall strive for the cause of GOD as you should strive for His cause. He has chosen you and has placed no hardship on you in practicing your religion - the religion of your father Abraham. ................................" 22:78

God established also several rules in His book, the Quran, for His TRUE believers. Breaking any of His rules or refusing any of them means loss, misguidance, misery and eternal suffering. To understand a topic like the DRESS CODE for Muslim Women, we need to review quickly some of these rules established by our Creator, God Almighty, to whom we will be responsible for our deeds. Every rule is important and every rule is meant to be.

(1) The Quran is a complete book, See 6:19,38,114, 115, 12:111 and 50:45.

Remember that when God says that His book is complete, it means 100% complete.

"..........We did not leave ANYTHING out of this book." 6:38

"The word of your Lord is COMPLETE, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient." 6:115

(2) The Quran is perfect; no mistakes, no falsehood, no nonsense.

"No falsehood could enter it (Quran), in the past or in the future; a revelation from a Most Wise, Praiseworthy." 41:42

".......All ruling belongs to God, and He has ruled that you shall not worship except Him. This is the PERFECT RELIGION, but most people do not know." 12:40 (see also 30:30, 30:43 and 98:5).

(3) The Quran is detailed, and when God says He detailed His book it means FULLY detailed. God does not do half jobs.

"Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt." 6:114 (See also, 7:52, 11:1, 41:3, 10:37 and 12:111)

(4) God does not need any addition to His book. God teaches us in the Quran that He does not run out of words and that if He so willed He could have given us hundreds, thousands or millions of books besides the Quran (see 18:109). Since the Quran is complete, perfect and fully detailed, God did not give us any more books.

(5) God calls His book, the Quran, the BEST HADITH. HE called on His true believers to accept no other hadiths as a source of this perfect religion . See 7:185, 31:6, 39:23, 45:6, and 77:50.

"Have they not looked at the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all the things God has created? Does it ever occur to them that the end of their life may be near? Which HADITH, besides this (Quran) do they believe in?" 7:185

(6) God calls on His true believers to make sure not to fall in the trap of idol-worship by following the words of the scholars instead of the words of God (see 9:31).

(7) God calls those who prohibit what He did not prohibit, aggressors, liars and idol-worshipers. Idol-worship is the only unforgivable sin, if maintained till death. See, 5:87, 9:37, 7:32, 6:119, 6:140 and 10:59.

"O you who believe, do not prohibit good things that are made lawful by God, and do not aggress; God dislikes the aggressors." 5:87

"Say, "Did you note how God sends down to you all kinds of provisions, then you render some of them unlawful, and some lawful?" Say, "Did God give you permission to do this? Or, do you fabricate lies and attribute them to God?" 10:59

(8) Muhammed is represented only by the Quran. The Prophet Muhammed was the last Prophet and a messenger of God (33:40). He was not the messenger of God because of who he (Muhammed) was, but because he was given the Quran (the message) to deliver to the world. The religion of Islam is a religion of God, not about Muhammed, who was blessed by God with the delivery of the message of the Quran. He did not have an agenda of his own. His job was to deliver to the world what God was giving him, the Quran. See 42:48, 13:40, 5:99-100

Muhammed cannot prohibit things, or make lawful things on his own. When he tried to do that God admonished him publicly, see 66:1

"O you prophet, why do you prohibit what GOD has made lawful for you, just to please your wives? GOD is Forgiver, Merciful." 66:1

66:1 reminds us that God is the only ONE to prohibit or make things lawful. NO ONE can attribute to Muhammed a prohibition that God did not give him in the Quran. Anyone who tries to do so is admitting his/her refusal of God's words and commandments in the Quran.

(9) The TRUE believers KNOW that when God says something, He means it, and when He does not, he means it as well. Everything given to us in the Quran was done deliberately and everything left out was also left out deliberately.

God does not forget. See 19:64. We are not to add to this religion what God deliberately left out and claim it to be from Him or His messenger. His messenger has only ONE message, the Quran. God already told us He does not run out of words. 18:109

(10) God does not need us to improve on His book, the Quran, but we very much need Him for every aspect of our lives. Those who think they have some improvement on the Quran are but asking for recognition of their idols as gods besides the ONE and ONLY GOD.

Fabricated hadiths tried to add to Islam (Submission) what the disbelievers thought God forgot to mention in the Quran.

(11) God calls on His TRUE believers to verify every piece of information they see, hear or read, see 17:36.

"You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them." 17:36

So, Please VERIFY for yourself.


THREE RULES FOR WOMEN DRESS CODE

IN ISLAM

FIRST RULE : THE BEST GARMENT

[7:26] "O children of Adam, we have provided you with garments to cover your bodies, as well as for luxury. But the best garment is the garment of righteousness. These are some of GOD's signs, that they may take heed."

This is the BASIC rule of DRESS CODE in the Quran. This is the first rule in WOMEN DRESS CODE in Islam (Submission).

SECOND RULE : COVER YOUR BOSOMS

The second rule can be found in 24:31. Here God orders the women to cover their bosoms whenever they dress up. But before quoting 24:31 let us review some crucial words that are always mentioned with this topic, namely "Hijab" and "Khimar"

THE WORD "HIJAB" in the QURAN

"Hijab" is the term used by many Muslims women to describe their head cover that may or may not include covering their face except their eyes, and sometimes covering also one eye. The Arabic word "Hijab" can be translated into veil or yashmak. Other meanings for the word "Hijab" include, screen, cover(ing), mantle, curtain, drapes, partition, division, divider.

Can we find the word "Hijab" in the Quran??

The word "Hijab" appeared in the Quran 7 times, five of them as "Hijab" and two times as "Hijaban," these are 7:46, 33:53, 38:32, 41:5, 42:51, 17:45 & 19:17.

None of these "Hijab" words are used in the Quran in reference to what the traditional Muslims call today (Hijab) as a dress code for the Muslim woman.

God knows that generations after Muhammed's death the Muslims will use the word "Hijab" to invent a dress code that He never authorized. God used the word "Hijab" ahead of them just as He used the word "Hadith" ahead of them.

Hijab in the Quran has nothing to do with the Muslim Women dress code.

HISTORICAL BACKGROUND:

While many Muslims call "Hijab", an Islamic dress code, they completely ignore the fact that, Hijab as a dress code has nothing to do with Islam and nothing to do with QURAN.

"Hijab" or veil can be traced back to early civilizations. It can be found in early and late Roman and Greek art. The evidence can be seen in archeological discoveries whether in pottery fragments, paintings or recorded civil laws. In Greco-Roman culture, both women and men wore head covering in religious contexts. The tradition of wearing the veil (by women) and the headcover (by men) was then adopted by the Jews who wrote it in the Talmud (Talmud equals the Hadiths and Sunna, neither are the words of God) then the Christians adopted the same. A well respected Rabbi once explained to a group of Jewish young women, "We do not find a direct command in the Torah mandating that women cover their heads, but we do know that this has been the continuing custom for thousands of years." After the prophet Muhammad's death , the writers of the hadith books adopted and encouraged the ancient tradition of head covering. Hadith book' writers took after the Jews as they did with many other traditions , and alleged them to the prophet since the Quran did not command it.

Any student of the Jewish traditions or religious books will see that head cover for the Jewish woman (and men) has been encouraged by the Rabbis and religious leaders. Observant Jewish women still cover their heads most of the time and specially in the synagogues, weddings, and religious festivities.

Christian women cover their heads in many religious occasions while the nuns cover their heads all the time.

As we can expect the traditional Arabs, of all religions, Jews, Christians and Muslims used to wear head cover, or "Hijab," not because of Islam, but because of tradition. In Saudi Arabia, up to this day most of the men cover their heads , not because of Islam but because of tradition.

North Africa is known for its Tribe (Tuareg) that have the Muslim men wearing "Hijab" instead of women. Here the tradition has the hijab in reverse. If wearing Hijab is the sign of the pious and righteous Muslim woman, Mother Teresa would have been the first woman to be counted.

In brief, hijab is a traditional dress and has nothing to do with Islam or religion. In certain areas of the world, men are the ones who wear the hijab while in others the women do.

Mixing religion with tradition is a form of idolworship, since the followers of traditions are following laws from sources other than God's scriptures and claim it to be from God. Idolworship is the only unforgivable sin if maintained till death.

Ignoring what God asks you to do in His book, or following innovated laws not stated in the the Quran, is a clear sign of disregarding God and His message.

When tradition supersedes God's commandment, the true religion takes a second place. God never accepts to be second, God has to be always the FIRST and to HIM there is no second.

THE WORD "KHIMAR" in the QURAN:

"Khimar" is an Arabic word that can be found in the Quran in 24:31 While the first basic rule of Dress Code for the Muslim Women can be found in 7:26, the second rule of the DRESS CODE FOR WOMEN can be found in 24:31. Some Muslims quote verse 31 of sura 24 as containing the Hijab, or head cover, by pointing to the word, khomoorehenna, (from Khimar), forgetting that God already used the word Hijab, several times in the Quran. Those blessed by God can see that the use of the word "Khimar" in this verse is not for "Hijab" or for head cover. Those who quote this verse usually add (Head cover) (veil) after the word Khomoorehenna, and usually between ( ), because it is their addition to the verse not God's. Here is 24:31,

"And tell the believing women to subdue their eyes, and maintain their chastity. They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary. They shall cover their chests, (with their Khimar) and shall not relax this code in the presence of other than their husbands, their fathers, the fathers of their husbands, their sons, the sons of their husbands, their brothers, the sons of their brothers, the sons of their sisters, other women, the male servants or employees whose sexual drive has been nullified, or the children who have not reached puberty. They shall not strike their feet when they walk in order to shake and reveal certain details of their bodies. All of you shall repent to GOD, O you believers, that you may succeed." 24:31 Khalifa's translation.

Here is Yousuf Ali's translation, but the word KHIMAR was put back in place instead of (veils), so the verse would look as it should have been before adding Ali's own interpretation:

"And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments ....... . . that they should draw their KHIMAR over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands.........."

Y. Ali's translation, with the word khimar put back in place.

"Khimar" is an Arabic word that means, cover, any cover, a curtain is a Khimar, a dress is a Khimar, a table cloth that covers the top of a table is a Khimar, a blanket can be used as a Khimar..etc. The word KHAMRA used for intoxicant in Arabic has the same root with Khimar, because both covers, the Khimar covers (a window, a body, a table . . . etc.) while KHAMRA covers the state of mind. Most of the translators, obviously influenced by Hadith (fabrications) translate the word as VEIL and thus mislead most people to believe that this verse is advocating the covering of the head.

In 24:31 God is asking the women to use their cover (khimar)( being a dress, a coat, a shawl, a shirt, a blouse, a tie, a scarf . . . etc.) to cover their bosoms, not their heads or their hairs. If God so willed to order the women to cover their heads or their hair, nothing would have prevented Him from doing so. GOD does not run out of words. GOD does not forget. God did not order the women to cover their heads or their hair.

God does not wait for a Scholar to put the correct words for Him!

The Arabic word for CHEST, GAYB is in the verse (24:31), but the Arabic words for HEAD, (RAAS) or HAIR, (SHAAR) are NOT in the verse. The commandment in the verse is clear - COVER YOUR CHEST OR BOSOMS, but also the fabrication of the scholars and most of the translators is clear by claiming- cover your head or hair.

The last part of the verse (24:31) translates as, "They shall not strike their feet when they walk in order to shake and reveal certain details of their bodies." The details of the body can be revealed or not revealed by the dress you wear, not by your head cover.

Notice also the expression in 24:31,

"They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary."

This expression may sound vague to many because they have not understood the mercy of God. Again God here used this very general term to give us the freedom to decide according to our own circumstances the definition of "What is necessary".

It is not up to a scholar or to any particular person to define this term. God wants to leave it personal for every woman and no one can take it away from her. Women who follow the basic rule number one i.e. righteousness, will have no problem making the right decision to reveal only which is necessary.

The word "zeenatahunna" in this verse refers to the woman's body parts (beauty) that can be exaggerated by the movement of the body while walking and not to the artificial ornaments and decorations as some people interpret it or translate it. At the end of the verse, God told the women not to strike with their feet to show their "zeenatahunna." Striking the feet while walking can emphasize , exaggerate or shake certain parts of the body that do not need to be emphasized. It is important to remember that striking the feet while walking does not have this effect on the head, hair or face, they are not part of what God calls in this verse the hidden zeena.

Accepting orders from anybody but God, means idol-worship. That is how serious the matter of Hijab/khimar is. Women who wear Hijab because of tradition or because they like it for personal reasons commit no sin, as long as they know that it is not part of this perfect religion. Those who are wearing it because they think God ordered it are committing Idol-worship, as God did not order it, the scholars did. These women have found for themselves another god than the One who revealed the Quran, complete, perfect and FULLY detailed to tell them they have to cover their heads to be Muslims.

Idol-worship is the only unforgivable sin, if maintained till death, 4:48.

THIRD RULE : LENGTHEN YOUR GARMENTS

The first regulation of DRESS CODE for Muslim women is in 7:26, the second is in 24:31 and the third is in

33:59

"O prophet, tell your wives, your daughters, and the wives of the believers that they shall LENGTHEN their garments. Thus, they will be recognized and avoid being insulted. God is Forgiver, Most Merciful." 33:59

In 33:59, God sets the other regulation for the dress code for the Muslim women during the prophet's life.

Although the verse is talking to the prophet which means this regulation applies to the time of the prophet, just like the order in 49:2, the description fits the spirit of Islam (Submission in English), and can teach us a great deal.

If you reflect on this verse and how God ordered the prophet to tell his wives, his daughters and the wives of the believers to lengthen their garments, you would understand the great wisdom of the MOST WISE, the MOST MERCIFUL. In this verse, God, DELIBERATELY, (and all the TRUE believers know that everything GOD says, does, or did is DELIBERATE) said, tell them, to lengthen their garments, and never said how long is long. God could have said tell them to lengthen their garments to their ankles or to their mid-calf or to their knees, but HE DID NOT. He did not, OUT OF HIS MERCY, not because HE FORGOT as God does not forget. God knows that we will be living in different communities and have different cultures and insists that the minor details of this dress code will be left for the people of every community to hammer for themselves.

It is clear from the above verses that the DRESS CODE for the Muslim women (Submitters) according to the Quran is righteousness and modesty. God knows that this modesty will be understood differently in different communities and that is why He left it open to us to decide for ourselves. Decide, after righteousness what is modesty. Modesty for a woman who lives in New York may not be accepted by a woman who lives in Cairo Egypt. Modesty of a woman who lives in Cairo, Egypt may not be accepted by a woman who lives in Saudi Arabia.

Modesty of a woman who lives in Jidda in Saudi Arabia may not be accepted by a woman who lives in a desert oasis in the same country. This difference in the way we perceive modesty is well known to God, He created us, and He put NO hardship on us in this great religion. He left it to us to decide what modesty would be. For any person, knowledgeable or not to draw a line and make conclusion for God about the definition of modesty is to admit that he/she knows better than God.

God left it open for us and no-one has the authority to restrict it, it has to stay open.

RELAXING THE DRESS CODE:

In the family setting, God put no hardship on the women, and permitted them to relax their dress code. If you reflect on the verses, 33:35 and 24:60, you will see that God did not give details of what this relaxation is, because every situation is different.

A woman may relax her dress code in front of the four-year-old son of her brother but not as much in front of the 16 year old son.

"The women may relax (their dress code) around their fathers, their sons, their brothers, the sons of their brothers, the sons of their sisters, the other women, and their (female) servants. They shall reverence GOD. GOD witnesses all things." 33:55

"The elderly women who do not expect to get married commit nothing wrong by relaxing their dress code, provided they do not reveal too much of their bodies. To maintain modesty is better for them. GOD is Hearer, Knower." 24:60

DRESS CODE FOR THE MOSQUES (MASJIDS):

"O children of Adam, you shall be clean and dress nicely when you go to the masjid. And eat and drink moderately; Surely, He does not love the gluttons." 7:31

HARDSHIP IN THIS RELIGION:

God, the MOST GRACIOUS, MOST MERCIFUL decided that those who will reject His complete book and go look for other sources for guidance will suffer in this life and in the HEREAFTER by their choice. God never put any hardship on the believers, but the scholars did, they invented their own laws in defiance of God, to regulate everything from the side of bed you sleep on, to which foot should step in the house, to what to do with a fly in your soup, to what to say when having intercourse with your spouse.

Those who believe God and believe that His book is COMPLETE, PERFECT AND FULLY DETAILED, will have everything easy for them as God promised, See 10:62-64, 16:97 while those who could not believe God and have been seeking other sources than the Quran will have all the hardship of this life and the life to come. In the Hereafter they will complain to God, "we were not idol-worshipers," but God knows best, He knows they were See 6:22-24

"On the day when we summon them all, we will ask the idol worshipers, "Where are the idols you set up?" Their disastrous response will be, "By GOD our Lord, we never were idol worshipers." Note how they lied to themselves, and how the idols they had invented have abandoned them." 6:22-24

CONCLUSION:

God, the Most Merciful, gave us three basic rules for the Dress Code for Women in Islam (Submission),

(1) The BEST garment is the garment of righteousness.

(2) Whenever you dress , cover your chest (bosoms).

(3) Lengthen your garment.

While these three BASIC rules may not sound enough for those who do not trust God, the TRUE believers know that God is ENOUGH. God could have given us more details to the point of having graphs, designs and color rules, but He , the Most Merciful, wants to give us exactly these very basic rules and leave the rest for us. After these three basic rules every woman is more aware of her circumstances and can adjust her dress for her situation. Any addition to these basic Quranic rules is an attempt to correct God or improve on His merciful design.

We have no obligation to follow but God's rules, just as His messenger did all the time. Innovations and fabrications that added thousands of rules to the women dress code are nothing but idol-worship and should be refused.

STAY WITH GOD, that is where the winners go.

May God bless us with His mercy and guidance.

*********************************

chinaman
July 17, 2004, 11:41 AM
The above article appears to be quoted from http://www.submission.org/ (http://www.submission.org/dress.html). That site has long been known to be operated by the Shiite community. Hence there is every possibility that the site mostly, if not exclusively, uses Quranic translation from Rashad Khalifa.

Traditionally, the Sunni community does not take Rashad Khalifa's translation as being accurate as a whole, rather, it appears to be Yousuf Ali (3 versions), Pickthal and Shakir whose translations are considered more acceptable.

I'd urge all to keep these in mind when reading or quoting from that site.

These comments do not refect my views on the subject matter of the current discussion in any way or form. Thank you.

BushidoTiger
July 18, 2004, 02:18 AM
Originally posted by chinaman
The above article appears to be quoted from http://www.submission.org/ (http://www.submission.org/dress.html). That site has long been known to be operated by the Shiite community. Hence there is every possibility that the site mostly, if not exclusively, uses Quranic translation from Rashad Khalifa.

Traditionally, the Sunni community does not take Rashad Khalifa's translation as being accurate as a whole, rather, it appears to be Yousuf Ali (3 versions), Pickthal and Shakir whose translations are considered more acceptable.

I'd urge all to keep these in mind when reading or quoting from that site.

These comments do not refect my views on the subject matter of the current discussion in any way or form. Thank you.

I'm not one of those so called submitters (ala Rashad Khalifa & co.). I definitely don't subscribe to his obsession w/ so called 19 miracles.

But, I don't think they are Shi'te though..RK was from Egypt.

I bumped into that article about a year ago while doing some search on this particular topic.

Upon reading it through, and based on my previous bias on this topic, I happened to agree with the author's reasoning and his arguments( supporting his view) based on cultural/historical perspective.

When it comes to Islamic discussion, I try to keep an open mind about things...I'm game if anybody can convince me w/ the logic/reason based on the Quran to make his/her case...be that be a Sunni or from other school(s) of thoughts within the Islamic umbrella.

I'm neither Shi'te nor 'Khalafite'..but I don't think, we, the Sunnis have a copyright on Quranic interpretations either. I'm open to listen to any of those schools of thought as long as its not in direct violation of the core beliefs of Islam and has merit in arguments based on Quran NOT culture/tradition.

Hope this clarifies my position..:)

Navarene
September 20, 2004, 11:36 AM
This press release was sent to me a few days ago. Where are we heading with our heads tucked under the heavily politicized dirty hijab? Note the presence of the busy-body Islamist, S. A. Hannan, polluting the religious atmosphere of Bangladesh.

September 8, 2004

PRESS RELEASE ON HIJAB SOLIDARITY DAY OBSERVED
IN DHAKA, BANGLADESH



[The Conference was addressed by Justice Abdur Rouf, Chairman of the
committee & former Chief Election Commissioner, Mr. Shah Abdul Hannan, Vice
Chairman & former Secretary Govt. of Bangladesh, Dr. Razia Akhter Banu, Vice
Chairman & Professor Political Science, Dhaka University. A large number of
Journalists attended the Press conference.]

In connection with observance of International hijab solidarity day, BANGLADESH chapter of International Solidarity Day Observation Committee arranged a seminar at the Press club in Dhaka .The chief guest of the function was Justice Abdur Rouf, Ex Justice of Appellate Division of the Supreme Court and former chief election commissioner.

The meeting was presided over by Dr Razia Akter Banu, Professor of Political Science in the Dhaka University . Mr. Shah Abdul Hannan, former secretary, Govt. of Bangladesh presented a paper. A number of intellectuals, journalists, poets, women leaders and human rights activists were present in the meeting. Mr. Mahbubul Haq (a senior journalist), Mr. Motiur Rahman Mollik(a poet), Nasima Hasan(a university teacher), Dr Sultana Razia,(Asst professor of BUET ,Engineering university ), Prof Chemon Ara (writer & teacher) spoke on the occasion. They expressed great concern regarding the Hijab ban and termed it as against human fundamental, religions rights and also against UN Declaration of Human rights. They demanded to the French Govt. to revoke the law and the UN to put pressure on the French Govt. They also condemned the ban on use of Hijab in the educational institutions, offices and the Parliament by the Turkish authorities.

Shah Abdul Hannan
Vice-Chairman
International Hijab Solidarity Committee
&
Former Secretary
Govt. of Bangladesh

>>I think it is imperative to raise our voice against hijab valiantly for the sake of our Muslim women. If a woman choose to wear hijab, no problem but if it is imposed by the name of religion, we must protest it.

Edited on, September 20, 2004, 4:57 PM GMT, by Navarene.

Zobair
September 21, 2004, 12:38 AM
Nav! May be I missed something but I can't find anything in the press release that advocates the forcible introduction of Hijab in Bangladesh! I don't see anything wrong is speaking out against forcible ban of hijab which is rightly a violation of human rights. The hijab ban is being protested the world over not just in Bangladesh.


Originally posted by Navarene
This press release was sent to me a few days ago. Where are we heading with our heads tucked under the heavily politicized dirty hijab? Note the presence of the busy-body Islamist, S. A. Hannan, polluting the religious atmosphere of Bangladesh.

September 8, 2004

PRESS RELEASE ON HIJAB SOLIDARITY DAY OBSERVED
IN DHAKA, BANGLADESH

......................


>>I think it is imperative to raise our voice against hijab valiantly for the sake of our Muslim women. If a woman choose to wear hijab, no problem but if it is imposed by the name of religion, we must protest it.

Edited on, September 20, 2004, 4:57 PM GMT, by Navarene.

nihi
September 21, 2004, 11:30 AM
Yeah, can't relate Nav's imperative with the press release. The press release sounds like speaking against a ban (on whatever it is). Do you mean to protest that? Not quite getting it. Please explicate.

rafiq
September 21, 2004, 02:43 PM
I think the comments in bold were by the original poster on another board, and are probably not Navarene's comments.

kaisermatin
May 14, 2006, 10:40 AM
to veil or not veil what is the answer?

A. Obelisk!
B. Phallus!
C. P....!

mhferdaus
May 15, 2006, 11:02 PM
to veil or not veil what is the answer?

A. Obelisk!
B. Phallus!
C. P....!

if you truly want to be Muslim then INSHA-ALLAH ALLAH-TA-ALA will show you what path to take, do your own research people, do not try to force your issue on the others, rather show your evidence and keep it there, and like brother Mridul said, keep an open and thinking mind about issues cuz we can not be perfect ( not at once anyway ), so we must tend to be going perfect ( yes tend to the infinity ), may ALLAH TA-ALA show us the path and give us HIDAYAH, JAZAK-ALLAH KHAIR.

jabbar
May 16, 2006, 03:30 AM
Literal:
You, you the prophet, say to your wives and your daughters and the believers' women they near (lengthen) on them from their shirts/gowns/wide dresses, that (is) nearer that they be known (better than being identified), so they do not be harmed mildly/harmed, and God was/is forgiving, merciful.

English:
O prophet, tell your wives, your daughters, and the wives of the believers that they shall lengthen their garments. Thus, they will be recognized (as righteous women) and avoid being insulted. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.


This command is to dress modestly so that you aren't insulted or "fielded" at when you are outside. There is no indication of any kind of head to toe covering. It is impossible to enforce head to toe covering command based on this. :umm:

[Edited on 29-2-2004 by nasif]

Most insightful.

I agree that the burkha is not a mandatopry dress code for Islamic women. I am not an expert (although I try to follow Islam to the best of my ability), but can someone shed some light on whether the hijab (head scarf) is madatory or not? (This is a separate issue from the burkha, which is an all over cover (head to toe)).

Fazal
May 16, 2006, 02:43 PM
To Veil or Not To Veil

.... no objection with "To Veil", but just wondering how they are going to drive? Because without unveiling, they are not going to get pictured driver's license.

Tigers_eye
May 16, 2006, 03:17 PM
Kmatin,
where did you find this thread?
I loved the fab-arnab fight. according to my scorecard its 3-3.

Mridul ebong Bushido Tiger are pagols. Their long posts took out the joy of reading the entire thread. But must thank Mridul to open the thread.

Nasif bhaia = Mollah??

RazabQ
May 16, 2006, 03:40 PM
I believe there was an issure regarding this in FL. The matter was resolved in the sense that eyes and some facial features had to be evident. Too lazy to google it though.

Nasif
May 16, 2006, 03:43 PM
Nasif bhaia = Mollah??
Cat bhai, if I am mollah, then you will have to redefine the word mollah to mean "someone who can use brain cells" ;)

Faceoff
May 16, 2006, 03:59 PM
Most of the mollah's here got banned already.

Nasif bhai is an Ash fan. So he can't be a mollah :)

Tigers_eye
May 16, 2006, 04:07 PM
Amen!!

Nasif, you are one mullah I'm becoming a fan of :P:P:P
I was only questioning "say"! :)
Since the person was a BC member long before I was, thought may be that person knew something that I don't, lol.

Fazal
May 16, 2006, 04:13 PM
I was only questioning "say"! :)
Since he was a BC member long before I was, thought may be he knows something that I don't, lol.

But He is a She

mhferdaus
May 16, 2006, 04:50 PM
a lot of us forgot to mention the veil of eyes, or chokher porda it is very important that men control their eyes along with women control their dress to make a chaos free community, just can not count how many times when a woman passed around the corner where a group of okomma men was sitting idle, the woman had to be verbally insulted, in some cases of course it becomes more serious than this, do the people have nothing better to do than make mess with their private parts, are we not supposed to be souls too, or are the people have really become that hopeless?

dosadeel
May 20, 2006, 02:52 AM
Assalamu Alaykum,

A an amazing video lecture primarily for the muslims to learn how to respond to such questions:
http://www.emanrush.com/broadcasting.htm

Speaker: Shaykh Yasir Qadhi
Yasir Qadhi was born in Houston, Texas and completed his primary and secondary education in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia. He graduated with a B.Sc. in Chemical Engineering from the University of Houston, after which he was accepted as a student at the Islamic University of Madinah. After completing a diploma in Arabic, he graduated with a B.A. from the College of Hadith and Islamic Sciences.

Thereafter, he completed a M.A. in Islamic Theology from the College of Dawah.
His published works include Riya'a: The Hidden Shirk, Du'aa: The Weapon of the Believer, and An Introduction to the Sciences of the Qur'an.

Yasir Qadhi currently resides with his family in Houston, TX and is an instructor at AlMaghrib Institute, an organization that provides trademark double-weekend seminars leading students towards a bachelor's degree in Islamic Studies. His courses include the Light of Guidance (http://www.almaghrib.org/log.php), which focuses on aqeedah. In the fall of this year, he will begin pursuing his doctorate in Islamic Studies at Yale University in New Haven, CT.

WaterBoilsAt100DegsC
October 15, 2006, 08:44 PM
When one immigrates to a different country, one should adapt to that country's culture at least on the outside or risk having one's loyalties questioned. While the veil and traditional Muslim garb may be suitable for attending mosques,and other Islamic events, it should not be used as everyday wear.

It sets one apart and focuses on their difference and refusal to adapt to their new adopted nation's style of dress for everyday use. I am not saying that Muslims are disloyal, so do not try to insert a racial card into my post/views. I only note that their refusal to adapt to their new country breeds suspicion and distrust. It is self defeating.

They moved because they wanted a better life, well then adapt to your new country's standards of dress, etc. No one is saying they have to wear miniskirts, leather, boots. You can dress quite conservatively if you feel the need to and still fit in to your new adopted society.

al Furqaan
October 15, 2006, 09:34 PM
When one immigrates to a different country, one should adapt to that country's culture at least on the outside or risk having one's loyalties questioned. While the veil and traditional Muslim garb may be suitable for attending mosques,and other Islamic events, it should not be used as everyday wear.

It sets one apart and focuses on their difference and refusal to adapt to their new adopted nation's style of dress for everyday use. I am not saying that Muslims are disloyal, so do not try to insert a racial card into my post/views. I only note that their refusal to adapt to their new country breeds suspicion and distrust. It is self defeating.

They moved because they wanted a better life, well then adapt to your new country's standards of dress, etc. No one is saying they have to wear miniskirts, leather, boots. You can dress quite conservatively if you feel the need to and still fit in to your new adopted society.

when my parents immigrated, they weren't told by the immigration officials "if you live here, since you have chosen to live here, you can not wear the veil or keep a beard."

now if that is what the immigration officials say beforehand, then as ridiculous as it is, at least they have a legit excuse of saying no veil...because all those who came previously agreed they wouldn't wear it.

as far as values concerned, are we really trying to build a society where everyone is of the same values? isn't that what afghanistan used to be like: everyone having the same values forced upon them?

in truth, all societies should leave people alone so long as their values aren't causing any harm. no one is condoning that sadistic serial killers' values be tolerated by society because they are people too.

Banglatiger84
October 15, 2006, 11:50 PM
When one immigrates to a different country, one should adapt to that country's culture at least on the outside or risk having one's loyalties questioned. While the veil and traditional Muslim garb may be suitable for attending mosques,and other Islamic events, it should not be used as everyday wear.




Teh problem is that their loyalties will eb questioned even if thety dont don the Hijab. Things like not visiting pubs, not visiting beaches in bikinis and not dating in high school, are all taken as signs of separation and refusal to "mix"

imtiaz82
November 6, 2006, 02:13 AM
I didn't want to create a new thread on religion but thought about sharing this article, since nowadays we are having lot of discussions regarding "clash of civlizations". Muslims are increasingly being targetted for hate crimes which in turn has made some of us to hate/dislike all non-muslims.

As Muslims we take our guidance from the Quran and Sunnah and example of the pious predecessors and since Islam is a complete way of life till the end of time there is no situation, no condition and no moment in this world that has ever risen or will arise for which Islam does not have a position or a guideline.

The topic of how we view and treat non-Muslims and what our attitude should be towards them is not something requiring original ijtihad or debate by us. By the mercy and grace of Allaah our scholars have gathered evidences from the Quran and Sunnah and the example of the Sahabah and the pious predecessors and laid down guidelines and principles for us to follow. As laymen we tend to often take unfair and extreme opinions, either on the side of harshness or on the side of negligence, taking from the sources those evidences that suit our preconceived beliefs that are often based on personal experiences or predilections.
The article below talks on this subject:

Praise be to Allaah.
1- Islam is the religion of mercy and justice.

2- Muslims are commanded to call non-Muslims to Islam with wisdom and beautiful preaching and by debating in a manner that is better. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And argue not with the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), unless it be in (a way) that is better (with good words and in good manner, inviting them to Islamic Monotheism with His Verses), except with such of them as do wrong”
[al-‘Ankaboot 29:46]

3- Allaah does not accept any religion other than Islam. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers”
[Aal ‘Imraan 3:85]

4- The Muslims should give the kaafirs the opportunity to hear the words of Allaah. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And if anyone of the Mushrikoon (polytheists, idolaters, pagans, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allaah) seeks your protection then grant him protection so that he may hear the Word of Allaah (the Qur’aan) and then escort him to where he can be secure”
[al-Tawbah 9:6]

5- The Muslims should differentiate between different kinds of kaafirs in their dealings with them. They should make peace with those who make peace, and wage war against those who wage war, and wage jihad against those who stand in the way of spreading the message of Islam and causing it to prevail of earth.

6- With regard to matters of love and hate in the heart, the Muslims’ attitude towards non-Muslims is based on the latter’s attitude towards Allaah. If they worship Allaah and do not associate anything in worship with Him, then they love them. If they associate others in worship with Him, or disbelieve in Him, or worship others alongside Him, or are hostile towards His religion and hate the truth, then it is obligatory to hate them in our hearts.

7- Hating them in our hearts does not mean that we should oppress or mistreat them under any circumstances, because Allaah said to His Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), describing what his attitude should be towards the People of the Book:
“and I am commanded to do justice among you. Allaah is our Lord and your Lord. For us our deeds and for you your deeds”
[al-Shoora 42:15 – interpretation of the meaning]
even though he is a Muslim and they are following Judaism or Christianity.

8- The Muslims believe that it is not permissible, under any circumstances whatsoever, for a Muslim to mistreat a non-Muslim who is not hostile towards Islam; so the Muslim should not commit aggression against him, or frighten him, or terrorize him, or steal his wealth, or embezzle him, or deprive him of his rights, or deny him his trust, or deny him his wages, or withhold from him the price of his goods when buying from him or withhold the profits of a partnership if he is in a business partnership with him.

9- The Muslims believe that it is obligatory upon the Muslims to honour treaties or agreements made with a non-Muslim party. If a Muslim has agreed to their conditions when seeking permission to enter their country (i.e., a visa) and has promised to adhere to that, then it is not permissible for him to commit mischief in their land, to betray anyone, to steal, to kill or to do any destructive action, and so on.

10-The Muslims believe that in the case of non-Muslims who wage war against them and drive them out of their homes, or help others to do so, it is permissible for Muslims to shed the blood of these non-Muslims and confiscate their wealth.

11-The Muslims believe that it is permissible for a Muslim to treat kindly those non-Muslims who are not hostile, whether by offering financial help, feeding the hungry, giving them loans if needed or interceding with regard to permissible matters, or speaking kindly to them or returning their greetings, and so on. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“Allaah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion nor drove you out of your homes. Verily, Allaah loves those who deal with equity”
[al-Mumtahanah 60:8]

12-There is no reason why Muslims should not cooperate with non-Muslims with regard to establishing truth and combating falsehood, to support the oppressed and ward off danger from mankind, such as cooperating to fight pollution or to protect the environment, or to combat epidemic diseases and so on.

13-The Muslims believe that there are differences between Muslims and non-Muslims in specific rulings such as diyah (blood money), inheritance, marriage, guardianship in marriage, entering Makkah etc., as is explained in the books of Islamic fiqh (jurisprudence) . This is based on the commands of Allaah and His Messenger Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). We cannot regard as equal one who believes in Allaah alone with no partner or associate and one who disbelieves in Allaah or one who disbelieves in Allaah and joins others in worship with Him, or who turns away from the true religion.

14-Muslims are commanded to call people to Allaah in all the Muslim countries and other lands. They must convey the true religion of Allaah to the world and build mosques in all parts of the world, and send daa’iyahs (callers) to non-Muslim countries and invite their leaders to enter the religion of Allaah.

15-The Muslims believe that other people who are following other religions are not following any true religion, so the Muslims do not allow others to send missionaries to build churches in Muslim countries. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“Is then he who is a believer like him who is a Faasiq (disbeliever and disobedient to Allaah)? Not equal are they”
[al-Sajdah 32:18][/i]
Whoever thinks that Islam is equal to other religions is making a serious mistake. But the Muslim scholars have opened the door to debate with non-Muslims and allow the opportunity to discuss with and listen to non-Muslims and explain the truth to them.
Finally, Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“Say (O Muhammad): O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but Allaah (Alone), and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides Allaah.’ Then, if they turn away, say: ‘Bear witness that we are Muslims’”
[Aal ‘Imraan 3:64]
“And had the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) believed, it would have been better for them”
[Aal ‘Imraan 3:110].
Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid
http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=26721&ln=eng

Kabir
October 23, 2007, 11:47 AM
Here's a piece I read in Toronto Star last Sunday, and I'm quite impressed with the view of the author, a Muslim girl. Please read the whole thing before making any comments, as what she's saying in such short space is quite interesting and warrants digging into this from this perspective.

Full article: The sanctification of the burka (http://www.thestar.com/article/268824)

From: Toronto Star

The sanctification of the burka: Frequently overlooked amid heated debate, the Muslim garment's intricate past goes a long way toward illuminating an often controversial present

By: Farzana Hassan

[boring intro snipped...read full article if interested]

According to professor Nikkie Keddie of the University of California, however, the full veil was imposed on Muslim women only gradually. Her contention is supported by history. She states that initially, in the early periods of Islamic history, women had considerable freedom to roam unveiled.

Moreover, Bedouin men and women were both accustomed to covering their hair to protect themselves from the scorching sun, a practice that had nothing to do with religion.

Additionally, she points out that the full veiling of women, in fact, predates Islam. It is therefore not intrinsically Islamic and is rooted more in ancient Greek and Byzantine culture.

Among these rather elitist cultures, women were secluded based on class and social standing – the underlying assumption being that women of nobility would have far more to lose if they were dishonoured.

When Islam spread to these lands, it adopted some of the local customs and mores. Qur'anic injunctions on modesty, though quite vague in their terminology, came to be interpreted in light of these cultural practices. Nevertheless, slaves and nomadic peoples were barred form veiling entirely. In fact, if they violated this rule, they were duly punished.

A universal decree stipulating the face veil for Muslim women came much later around the time of the Mamelukes of Egypt who ruled the country in the 13th century. These rulers issued several decrees imposing the full veil on women when they appeared in public. Hence, what was once a mark of aristocracy and nobility, now came to be imposed on the commoner as religious dogma.

The rigid observance of these edicts has never been challenged since. Many parts of the Islamic world abound with women who, were they to appear in public without the full veil, would surely suffer dire consequences under the law, apart from experiencing social ostracism.

Moreover, once the practice of the full veil came to be firmly established, interpretations of the Qur'an that would endorse its continuation began to emerge from the conservative elements of Islamic society. Salvation for Muslim women came to be vested in their anonymity and invisibility.

The strictest applications of these interpretations are now to be seen in Saudi Arabia, where women cannot drive because they are fully veiled.

Similar interpretations have made their way into Canada, where a school run by female theologian Farhat Hashmi endorses this philosophy. Practices that were originally cultural and tribal have come to assume a fundamentalist religious tenor.

The subject of much heated debate, as seen in the recent Elections Canada decision that allowed burka-clad women to vote without removing their face veils, the burka has come to be sanctified, both by conservative forces within Islam and the Western left that endorses it in the name of multiculturalism.

The historical antecedents of the burka or full veil are rarely invoked in these debates.

Sohel
October 23, 2007, 12:01 PM
Here's a view for all those genuinely interested: -

WOMEN'S DRESS CODE IN ISLAM

INTRODUCTION:

God, the Most Gracious, Most Merciful, insists on making His religion easy, practical and enjoyable for His true believers. God also told us that those who reject Him or His books are making life miserable for themselves and for their loved ones who follow in their footsteps. He reminds us in the Quran that He has placed no hardship on us in practicing our religion (see 22:78).

"You shall strive for the cause of GOD as you should strive for His cause. He has chosen you and has placed no hardship on you in practicing your religion - the religion of your father Abraham..." 22:78

God established also several rules in His book, the Quran, for His TRUE believers. Breaking any of His rules or refusing any of them means loss, misguidance, misery and eternal suffering. To understand a topic like the DRESS CODE for Muslim Women, we need to review quickly some of these rules established by our Creator, God Almighty, to whom we will be responsible for our deeds. Every rule is important and every rule is meant to be.

(1) Quran is a complete book, See 6:19,38,114, 115, 12:111 and 50:45. Remember that when God says that His book is complete, it means 100% complete.

"..........We did not leave ANYTHING out of this book." 6:38

"The word of your Lord is COMPLETE, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient." 6:115

(2) Quran is perfect; no mistakes, no falsehood, no nonsense.

"No falsehood could enter it (Quran), in the past or in the future; a revelation from a Most Wise, Praiseworthy." 41:42

".......All ruling belongs to God, and He has ruled that you shall not worship except Him. This is the PERFECT RELIGION, but most people do not know.: 12:40 (see also 30:30, 30:43 and 98:5).

(3) Quran is detailed, and when God says He detailed His book it means FULLY detailed. God does not do half jobs.

"Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt." 6:114, See also, 7:52, 11:1, 41:3, 10:37 and 12:111

(4) God does not need any addition to His book. God teaches us in the Quran that He does not run out of words and that if He so willed He could have given us hundreds, thousands or millions of books besides the Quran (see 18:109). Since the Quran is complete, perfect and fully detailed, God did not give us any more books.

(5) God calls His book, the Quran, the BEST HADITH. HE called on His true believers to accept no other hadiths as a source of this perfect religion . See 7:185, 31:6, 39:23, 45:6, and 77:50.

"Have they not looked at the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all the things God has created? Does it ever occur to them that the end of their life may be near? Which HADITH, besides this (Quran) do they believe in?" 7:185

(6) God calls on His true believers to make sure not to fall in the trap of idol-worship by following the words of the scholars instead of the words of God (see 9:31).

(7) God calls those who prohibit what He did not prohibit, agressors, liars and idol-worshipers. Idol-worship is the only unforgivable sin, if maintained till death. See, 5:87, 9:37, 7:32, 6:119, 6:140 and 10:59.

"O you who believe, do not prohibit good things that are made lawful by God, and do not agress; God dislikes the aggressors." 5:87

"Say, "Did you note how God sends down to you all kinds of provisions, then you render some of them unlawful, and some lawful?" Say, "Did God give you permission to do this? Or, do you fabricate lies and attribute them to God?" 10:59

(8) Muhammed is represented only by the Quran. The Prophet Muhammed was the last Prophet and a messenger of God (33:40). He was not the messenger of God because of who he (Muhammed) was, but because he was given the Quran (the message) to deliver to the world. The religion of Islam is a religion of God, not about Muhammed, who was blessed by God with the delivery of the message of the Quran. He did not have an agenda of his own.

His job was to deliver to the world what God was giving him, the Quran. See 42:48, 13:40, 5:99-100, Muhammed cannot prohibit things, or make lawful things on his own. When he tried to do that God admonished him publicly, 66:1, 66:1 reminds us that God is the only ONE to prohibit or make things lawful.

NO ONE can attribute to Muhammed a prohibition that God did not give him in the Quran. Anyone who tries to do so is admitting his/her refusal of God's words and commandments in the Quran.

(9) The TRUE believers KNOW that when God says something, He means it, and when He does not, he means it as well. Everything given to us in the Quran was done deliberately and everything left out was also left out deliberately.

God does not forget. See 19:64. We are not to add to this religion what God deliberately left out and claim it to be from Him or His messenger. His messenger has only ONE message, the Quran. God already told us He does not run out of words. 18:109

(10) God does not need us to improve on His book, the Quran, but we very much need Him for every aspect of our lives. Those who think they have some improvement on the Quran are but asking for recognition of their idols as gods besides the ONE and ONLY GOD. Fabricated hadiths tried to add to Islam (Submission) what the disbelievers thought God forgot to mention in the Quran.

(11) God calls on His TRUE believers to verify every piece of information they see, hear or read, see 17:36.

"You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them." 17:36 So, VERIFY.

THREE RULES FOR WOMEN DRESS CODE IN ISLAM

THE BEST GARMENT, FIRST RULE :

[7:26] "O children of Adam, we have provided you with garments to cover your bodies, as well as for luxury. But the best garment is the garment of righteousness. These are some of GOD's signs, that they may take heed."

This is the BASIC rule of DRESS CODE in the Quran. This is the first rule in WOMEN DRESS CODE in Islam (Submission).

SECOND RULE, COVER YOUR BOSOMS:

The second rule can be found in 24:31. Here God orders the women to cover their bosoms whenever they dress up. But before quoting 24:31 let us review some crucial words that are always mentioned with this topic, namely "Hijab" and "Khimar"

THE WORD "HIJAB" in the QURAN

"Hijab" is the term used by many Muslims women to describe their head cover that may or may not include covering their face except their eyes, and sometimes covering also one eye. The Arabic word "Hijab" can be translated into veil or yashmak. Other meanings for the word "Hijab" include, screen, cover(ing), mantle, curtain, drapes, partition, division, divider.

Can we find the word "Hijab" in the Quran??

The word "Hijab" appeared in the Quran 7 times, five of them as "Hijab" and two times as "Hijaban," these are 7:46, 33:53, 38:32, 41:5, 42:51, 17:45 & 19:17.

None of these "Hijab" words are used in the Quran in reference to what the traditional Muslims call today (Hijab) as a dress code for the Muslim woman.

God knows that generations after Muhammed's death the Muslims will use the word "Hijab" to invent a dress code that He never authorized. God used the word "Hijab" ahead of them just as He used the word "Hadith" ahead of them.

Hijab in the Quran has nothing to do with the Muslim Women dress code.

HISTORICAL BACKGROUND:

While many Muslims call "Hijab", an Islamic dress code, they completely ignore the fact that, Hijab as a dress code has nothing to do with Islam and nothing to do with QURAN.

In reality "Hijab" is an old Jewish tradition that infiltrated into the hadith books like many innovations that contaminated Islam through alleged Hadith and Sunna. These in reality, came from Jewish origin. Any student of the Jewish traditions or religious books will see that head cover for the Jewish woman is encouraged by the Rabbis and religious leaders. Religious Jewish women still cover their heads most of the time and specially in the synagogues, weddings, and religious festivities.

Christian women cover their heads in many religious occasions while the nuns cover their heads all the time. This religious practice of covering the head was established from traditions thousands of years before the Muslim scholars claimed the Hijab as a Muslim dress code.

The traditional Arabs, of all religions, Jews, Christians and Muslims used to wear "Hijab," not because of Islam, but because of tradition. In Saudi Arabia, up to this minute most of the men cover their head , not because of Islam but because of tradition. Thank God this tradition has not been counted as Islamic dress code yet.

North Africa is known for its Tribe (Tuareg) that have the Muslim men wearing "Hijab" instead of women. Here the tradition has the hijab in reverse. If wearing Hijab is the sign of the pious and righteous Muslim woman, Mother Teresa would have been the first woman to be counted.

In brief, hijab is a traditional dress and has nothing to do with Islam or religion. In certain areas of the world, men are the ones who wear the hijab while in others the women do.

Mixing religion with tradition is a form of idol-worship, because not knowing (or not trying to find out) what God asked you to do in His book, the Quran, is a sign of disregarding God and His message. When tradition supersedes God's commandment, the true religion takes a second place. God never accepts to be second, God has to be always the FIRST and to HIM there is no second..

THE WORD "KHIMAR" in the QURAN:

"Khimar" is an Arabic word that can be found in the Quran in 24:31 While the first basic rule of Dress Code for the Muslim Women can be found in 7:26, the second rule of the DRESS CODE FOR WOMEN can be found in 24:31. Some Muslims quote verse 31 of sura 24 as containing the Hijab, or head cover, by pointing to the word, khomoorehenna, (from Khimar), forgetting that God already used the word Hijab, several times in the Quran.

Those blessed by God can see that the use of the word "Khimar" in this verse is not for "Hijab" or for head cover. Those who quote this verse usually add (Head cover) (veil) after the word Khomoorehenna, and usually between ( ), because it is their addition to the verse not God's.

Here it is 24:31;

"And tell the believing women to subdue their eyes, and maintain their chastity. They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary. They shall cover their chests, (with their Khimar) and shall not relax this code in the presence of other than their husbands, their fathers, the fathers of their husbands, their sons, the sons of their husbands, their brothers, the sons of their brothers, the sons of their sisters, other women, the male servants or employees whose sexual drive has been nullified, or the children who have not reached puberty. They shall not strike their feet when they walk in order to shake and reveal certain details of their bodies. All of you shall repent to GOD, O you believers, that you may succeed." 24:31

Here is Yousuf Ali's translation, but the word KHIMAR was put back in place instead of (veils), so the verse would look as it should have been before adding Ali's own interpretation:

"And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments ... that they should draw their KHIMAR over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands.." Y. Ali's translation, with the word khimar put back in place.

"Khimar" is an Arabic word that means, cover, any cover, a curtain is a Khimar, a dress is a Khimar, a table cloth that covers the top of a table is a Khimar, a blanket can be used as a Khimar..etc. The word KHAMRA used for intoxicant in Arabic has the same root with Khimar, because both covers, the Khimar covers (a window, a body, a table . etc.) while KHAMRA covers the state of mind. Most of the translators, obviously influenced by Hadith (fabrications) translate the word as VEIL and thus mislead most people to believe that this verse is advocating the covering of the head.

In 24:31 God is asking the women to use their cover (khimar)( being a dress, a coat, a shawl, a shirt, a blouse, a tie, a scarf . . . etc.) to cover their bosoms, not their heads or their hairs. If God so willed to order the women to cover their heads or their hair, nothing would have prevented Him from doing so. GOD does not run out of words. GOD does not forget.

God did not order the women to cover their heads or their hair. He was not waiting for a Scholar to put the words for Him.

The Arabic word for CHEST, GAYB is in the verse (24:31), but the Arabic words for HEAD, (RAAS) or HAIR, (SHAAR) are NOT in the verse. The commandment in the verse is clear - COVER YOUR CHEST OR BOSOMS, but also the fabrication of the scholars and most of the translators is clear by claiming- cover your head or hair.

The last part of the verse (24:31) translates as, "They shall not strike their feet when they walk in order to shake and reveal certain details of their bodies." The details of the body can be revealed or not revealed by the dress you wear, not by your head cover.

Notice also the expression in 24:31, "They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary." This expression may sound vague to many because they have not understood the mercy of God.

Again God here used this very general term to give us the freedom to decide according to our own circumstances the definition of "Which is necessary". It is not up to a scholar or to any particular person to define this term. God wants to leave it personal for every woman and no one can take it away from her.

Women who follow the basic rule number one i.e. righteousness, will have no problem making the right decision to reveal only which is necessary. The word "zeenatahunna" in this verse refers to the woman's body parts (beauty) and not to ornaments and decorations as some people interpret it or translate it.

At the end of the verse, God told the women not to strike with their feet to show their "zeenatahunna". You do not need to strike your feet to show your ornaments but the way you strike your feet while walking can expose or shake certain parts of the body that do not need to be emphasized.

Accepting orders from anybody but God, means idol-worship. That is how serious the matter of Hijab/ khimar is. Women who wear Hijab because of tradition or because they like it for personal reasons commit no sin, as long as they know that it is not part of this perfect religion. Those who are wearing it because they think God ordered it are committing Idol-worship, as God did not order it, the scholars did. These women have found for themselves another god than the One who revealed the Quran, complete, perfect and FULLY detailed to tell them they have to cover their heads to be Muslims.

Idol-worship is the only unforgivable sin, if maintained till death, 4:48.

THIRD RULE OF DRESS CODE FOR WOMEN:

The first regulation of DRESS CODE for Muslim women is in 7:26, the second is in 24:31 and the third is in 33:59.

"O prophet, tell your wives, your daughters, and the wives of the believers that they shall LENGTHEN their garments. Thus, they will be recognized and avoid being insulted. God is Forgiver, Most Merciful." 33:59

In 33:59, God sets the other regulation for the dress code for the Muslim women during the prophet's life. Although the verse is talking to the prophet which means this regulation applies to the time of the prophet, just like the order in 49:2, the description fits the spirit of Islam, and can teach us a great deal.

If you reflect on this verse and how God ordered the prophet to tell his wives, his daughters and the wives of the believers to lengthen their garments, you would understand the great wisdom of the MOST WISE, the MOST MERCIFUL. In this verse, God, DELIBERATELY, (and all the TRUE believers know that everything GOD says, does, or did is DELIBERATE) said, tell them, to lengthen their garments, and never said how long is long.

God could have said tell them to lengthen their garments to their ankles or to their mid-calf or to their knees, but HE DID NOT. He did not, OUT OF HIS MERCY, not because HE FORGOT as God does not forget. God knows that we will be living in different communities and have different cultures and insists that the minor details of this dress code will be left for the people of every community to hammer for themselves.

It is clear from the above verses that the DRESS CODE for the Muslim women (Submitters) according to the Quran is righteousness and modesty. God knows that this modesty will be understood differently in different communities and that is why He left it open to us to decide for ourselves.

Decide, after righteousness what is modesty. Modesty for a woman who lives in New York may not be accepted by a woman who lives in Cairo Egypt. Modesty of a woman who lives in Cairo, Egypt may not be accepted by a woman who lives in Saudi Arabia. Modesty of a woman who lives in Jidda in Saudi Arabia may not be accepted by a woman who lives in a desert oasis in the same country.

This difference in the way we perceive modesty is well known to God, he created us, and He put NO hardship on us in this great religion. He left it to us to decide what modesty would be. For any person, knowledgeable or not to draw a line and make conclusion for God about the definition of modesty is to admit that he/she knows better than God. God left it open for us and no-one has the authority to restrict it, it has to stay open.

RELAXING THE DRESS CODE:

In the family setting, God put no hardship on the women, and permitted them to relax their dress code. If you reflect on the verses, 33:35 and 24:60, you will see that God did not give details of what this relaxation is, because every situation is different. A woman may relax her dress code in front of the four-year-old son of her brother but not as much in front of the 16 year old son.

[33:55] "The women may relax (their dress code) around their fathers, their sons, their brothers, the sons of their brothers, the sons of their sisters, the other women, and their (female) servants. They shall reverence GOD. GOD witnesses all things."

[24:60] "The elderly women who do not expect to get married commit nothing wrong by relaxing their dress code, provided they do not reveal too much of their bodies. To maintain modesty is better for them. GOD is Hearer, Knower."

DRESS CODE FOR THE MOSQUES (MASJIDS):

[7:31] "O children of Adam, you shall be clean and dress nicely when you go to the masjid. And eat and drink moderately; Surely, He does not love the gluttons."

HARDSHIP IN THIS RELIGION:

God, the MOST GRACIOUS, MOST MERCIFUL decided that those who will reject His complete book and go look for other sources for guidance will suffer in this life and in the HEREAFTER by their choice. God never put any hardship on the believers, but the scholars did, they invented their own laws in defiance of God, to regulate everything from the side of bed you sleep on, to which foot should step in the house, to what to do with a fly in your soup, to what to say when having intercourse with your spouse.

Those who believe God and believe that His book is COMPLETE, PERFECT AND FULLY DETAILED, will have everything easy for them as God promised, See 10:62-64, 16:97 while those who could not believe God and have been seeking other sources than the Quran will have all the hardship of this life and the life to come. In the Hereafter they will complain to God, "we were not idol-worshipers," but God knows best, He knows they were See 6:22-24

"On the day when we summon them all, we will ask the idol worshipers, "Where are the idols you set up?" Their disastrous response will be, "By GOD our Lord, we never were idol worshipers." Note how they lied to themselves, and how the idols they had invented have abandoned them." 6:22-24

CONCLUSION:

God, the Most Merciful, gave us three basic rules for the Dress Code for Women in Islam (Submission),

(1) The BEST garment is the garment of righteousness.
(2) Whenever you dress , cover your chest (bosoms).
(3) Lengthen your garment.

While these three BASIC rules may not sound enough for those who do not trust God, the TRUE believers know that God is ENOUGH. God could have given us more details to the point of having graphs, designs and color rules, but He , the Most Merciful, wants to give us exactly these very basic rules and leave the rest for us. After these three basic rules every woman is more aware of her circumstances and can adjust her dress for her situation. Any addition to these basic Quranic rules is an attempt to correct God or improve on His merciful design.

We have no obligation to follow but God's rules. Innovations and fabrications that added thousands of rules to the women dress code are nothing but idol-worship and should be refused.

STAY WITH GOD, that is where the winners go.

May God bless us with His mercy and guidance.

http://www.free-minds.org/women/scarf.htm

It's all about intent, choices and consequences. Personally, I support Muslim women, especially in the West at this particular juncture, who voluntarily and without any coercion whatsoever, choose to use the hijab as a spiritual statement against vanity, as well as a political statement of identity against hostile and often racist elements of the post 9/11 West.

Rumz_01
October 23, 2007, 12:44 PM
I wear hijab n burka to college everyday. My hijab is like a part of me, without it i feel awkward, n so i have it on almost all the time. Thing is, i chose to wear it..n im very happy wearing it...n iv seen the way people look, even some of the Muslims..bu i dnt really care to be honest..bcause to me..its a way of being closer to Allah.. n thas wat matter most...
There are many girls have seen who wear the hijab..n then dress in such a way that i kind of defeats the point of the hijab..n so whats the point..?

Fazal
October 23, 2007, 12:50 PM
I prefer Veal.

Kabir
October 23, 2007, 01:10 PM
Sohel bhai, that was a great reading (although I read it from half of the literature onwards).

It's interesting that what you're quoting talks about essentially the same thing as what I'm quoting. Except that, what you're quoting here talks about it more deeply and goes in the three specific points of interest.

I'm happy coz today I have cleared out my own misconception about what Islam requires us to do vs. what we've been told that Islam requires us to do. Certainly, the best way to verify a fact is to verify yourself, and not depend on a Scholar to tell you what they think we should do.

Thanks Sohel bhai :)

Kabir
October 23, 2007, 01:13 PM
Rumz apu,

As the quote in Sohel bhai's post says, it's completely upto you what you wear. But wearing hijab and the extent to which you cover yourself up shouldn't be connected to Islam. If you prefer this way, then go ahead with it by all means.

Rumz_01
October 23, 2007, 01:23 PM
Rumz apu,

As the quote in Sohel bhai's post says, it's completely upto you what you wear. But wearing hijab and the extent to which you cover yourself up shouldn't be connected to Islam. If you prefer this way, then go ahead with it by all means.


i jus feel more comfortable...
n Bhaiyya as I am younger it shud be me callin u bhai..not u callin me apu..so jus use my name..thnx..! (sounded extremely sweet tho)

Kabir
October 23, 2007, 01:36 PM
i jus feel more comfortable...

Exactly, you being comfortable is the reason. That's exactly what I was referring to :)

n Bhaiyya as I am younger it shud be me callin u bhai..not u callin me apu..so jus use my name..thnx..! (sounded extremely sweet tho)

Like you, I feel comfortable calling younger ones bhaiya and apu. Hope my younger ones don't mind :)

Tigers_eye
October 23, 2007, 01:40 PM
I prefer Veal.
hmmm!!! dui dat hoiley oshobidha asey. Must have char dat.

Sohel bhai, thanks for the info.

Rumz_01
October 23, 2007, 01:47 PM
Like you, I feel comfortable calling younger ones bhaiya and apu. Hope my younger ones don't mind :)

aww bless..ur too kool!!

Sohel
October 23, 2007, 02:13 PM
I wear hijab n burka to college everyday. My hijab is like a part of me, without it i feel awkward, n so i have it on almost all the time. Thing is, i chose to wear it..n im very happy wearing it...n iv seen the way people look, even some of the Muslims..bu i dnt really care to be honest..bcause to me..its a way of being closer to Allah.. n thas wat matter most...
There are many girls have seen who wear the hijab..n then dress in such a way that i kind of defeats the point of the hijab..n so whats the point..?

Right on SISTAH ... :up:


It's all about intent, choices and consequences. Personally, I support Muslim women, especially in the West at this particular juncture, who voluntarily and without any coercion whatsoever, choose to use the hijab as a spiritual statement against vanity, as well as a political statement of identity against hostile and often racist elements of the post 9/11 West.

Sohel
October 23, 2007, 02:14 PM
... Sohel bhai, thanks for the info.

Anytime Mijan ... :)

Sohel
October 23, 2007, 02:16 PM
Sohel bhai, that was a great reading (although I read it from half of the literature onwards).

It's interesting that what you're quoting talks about essentially the same thing as what I'm quoting. Except that, what you're quoting here talks about it more deeply and goes in the three specific points of interest.

I'm happy coz today I have cleared out my own misconception about what Islam requires us to do vs. what we've been told that Islam requires us to do. Certainly, the best way to verify a fact is to verify yourself, and not depend on a Scholar to tell you what they think we should do.

Thanks Sohel bhai :)

You're most welcome K ... :)

Scholars and scholarship are important, as long as WE don't empower them to do what is forbidden, namely appoint them as de facto "partners", "intermediaries" or "priests" between Allah and our personal salvation as free submitters to His Will as revealed in the Quran. The Quran is for EVERYONE to understand, internalize and follow according to to his or her SINCERE ability to be kind, pious and just ... period.

Peace, Sohel.

zahid
October 23, 2007, 02:19 PM
2 years puran thread dig marlo keda?

Btw, I don't prefer Muslim girls who wear Burkhas or wear Scarf. You do not have to show others that " Yes, I am a religious Muslim ". You can be a religious Muslim girl at heart and that's what counts.

HOWEVER, I do not approve of Muslim girls in skin-tight Jeans, leather boots, etc.

tonoy
October 23, 2007, 02:36 PM
Bujhi na kano, kinto amar kache borkha ebong Hijab pora mei der ke aro beshi shundor lage. Theres just some inner mystery about them which I find quite appealing. Its like a wrapped present and you dont know whats in the present. Personally though I think women should consider wearing atleast a veil when they are going to present themselves in an outside world. I know I would(if I was a girl that is).

Kabir
October 23, 2007, 02:55 PM
2 years puran thread dig marlo keda?

I'm the culprit :)

HOWEVER, I do not approve of Muslim girls in skin-tight Jeans, leather boots, etc.

It's your right to have your own views of it. But the cited literature urges, we can't impose our views on women; women must have their own choice to do what they want, within the boundaries of the religion (which apparently is possible when they wear tight-jeans and leather boots).

Wearing tight jeans and leather booths by themselves don't go outside the boundaries suggested by the Quran. In our society however, there could be some reasons for you to be against it. But then again, the society is changing, and whether you like it or not, girls will wear these :)

Fazal
October 23, 2007, 04:22 PM
I know ... I know... who am i to talk about this topic...I am neither a female nor a subject matter expert like Sohel NR or Kabir...


But if you ask me anyway, I would say .....too much veil kill the thrill... plus don't know what you are getting into before its too late.... specially now a days too many people with obesity problem.

Ehsan
October 23, 2007, 09:09 PM
Initially, I also had few doubts if one is to ONLY follow Quran and hadith may not be of high importance. But after few people talked to me in this regard, I was convinced that both are necessary. Its true few hadith were only meant for past generation as scholar Shabbir Ally says. Torontonians can catch him on Omni TV in Canada. Forgot what time they used to show his program. But only scholars will have the right knowledge to interpret which hadith were only meant for the past generation. However, I believe its only few of them.

There is nothing wrong with the article Sohail bhai has posted. Only just that it is not accounting for the hadiths. Being a human we always try to make things go our way and the website Sohel bhai has quoted appears to revolutionize Islam. But Quran and Hadith that we have are forever. It is not Islam that needs to be revolutionized, its the muslims. It's all about the choices we make. Allah has given us the brain and we must use it wisely. Again, it is upto to us what we wanna believe. For rest, Allah knows the best.

Allow me to quote the last few things our Holy Prophet had to say in his last sermon:

O People, NO PROPHET OR APOSTLE WILL COME AFTER ME AND NO NEW FAITH WILL BE BORN. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand words which I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the QURAN and my example, the SUNNAH and if you follow these you will never go astray. Source: http://www.islamicity.com/Mosque/lastserm.HTM

Rumz, proud of you sis!

Sohel
October 24, 2007, 05:01 AM
Initially, I also had few doubts if one is to ONLY follow Quran and hadith may not be of high importance. But after few people talked to me in this regard, I was convinced that both are necessary. Its true few hadith were only meant for past generation as scholar Shabbir Ally says. Torontonians can catch him on Omni TV in Canada. Forgot what time they used to show his program. But only scholars will have the right knowledge to interpret which hadith were only meant for the past generation. However, I believe its only few of them.

There is nothing wrong with the article Sohail bhai has posted. Only just that it is not accounting for the hadiths. Being a human we always try to make things go our way and the website Sohel bhai has quoted appears to revolutionize Islam. But Quran and Hadith that we have are forever. It is not Islam that needs to be revolutionized, its the muslims. It's all about the choices we make. Allah has given us the brain and we must use it wisely. Again, it is upto to us what we wanna believe. For rest, Allah knows the best.

Allow me to quote the last few things our Holy Prophet had to say in his last sermon:
Source: http://www.islamicity.com/Mosque/lastserm.HTM

Rumz, proud of you sis!

Dear Ehsan,

Focusing on what I've underlined in your post, it is indeed all about choices and consequences. You hit the nail right on the head and as a fellow Muslim, Bangladeshi and Dhakaiya - I am proud of you for posting those words and feelings. I'm also very proud of young sister Rumana as posted before.

When it comes to the Hadith and other important traditions and works of Islamic erudition and scholarship, in my humble opinion it is not about their importance - of course they are important and can add value to our submission if we so chose.

It is about believing in our hearts and spiritual practices as Muslims, that Quran is the ONLY DIVINE, INFALLIBLE, COMPLETE AND FINAL REVELATION FROM GOD for all of mankind - a revelation that supercedes all divine revelations of the past - and subsequently being thoughtful about the de facto roles we assign as responsible Muslims inside our hearts and practices when it comes to NON-DIVINE albeit important works and traditions such as the Hadith, something we perhaps must do WITHIN the Quranic context and not the other way around.

As a Muslim, I believe that our religion is Islam as revealed to Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), the seal of His messengers, in the Quran, and not "Mohamedanism" as revealed in the important but not infallible traditions of the Hadith and other works of erudition and scholarship. Our religion does not allow for formal or de facto partners, priests, intermediaries or interceders between Allah and our individual salvation. We are responsible for our own submission and all of the consequences thereof, whatever they may be in GOD's judgment in this life and beyond.

As a Muslim, I feel that scholars, teachers and other exemplary people committed to kindness, piety and justice can and do shed important light in that process, and indeed help us stay on "the path" of submission - but that "path" can ONLY be DEFINED by the Holy Quran, the SEAL of DIVINE REVELATIONS, revealed for all of mankind with the capacity to understand, internalize and follow its guidance according his or her potential as ordained by GOD. That original light should come from within ourselves as GOD's creations, and present us with real choices in our daily lives as we do the thinking for ourselves as responsible, sentient and non-complacent Muslims beyond all cultural traditions and comforts, and ultimately all identities other than that of a submitter. In short, the onus is not on the scholars and their scholarship but on US and the roles WE empower them to play in our spiritual lives within the context.

I believe that in this Information Age when both literacy, access to information, and more detailed, context and semiotics-based translations and transliterations of Quranic Arabic are becoming more and more commonplace, the roles of scholars in Islam - already limited because of Islam’s prohibition of priesthood – must evolve accordingly in order to accommodate these Information Age realities very different from perhaps any other age in human history. We as Muslims, perhaps have better opportunities than ever before to overcome some of our intellectual and other complacencies when it comes to our inherited religion and read the Quran in good faith as responsible Muslims. Traditions, scholars and their erudition of various Madhabs can play either a positive or a negative part in that endeavor, depending on how WE use that information in our lives and with what sort of intent.

In my opinion, it is not about following or not following a Madhab, but how and why we follow whatever we choose to in our hearts, and to what end. A Madhab can be a light that illuminates the Word of GOD, but NEVER assigns itself as an intermediary between GOD in the either the heart or the mind of a Muslim who follows its erudite interpretations and norms.

Then again, there is not much a Madhab can do when the individual Muslim is blinded by his own desire to seek ephemeral comforts of de facto idolatry in a private world where he/she hears only what reinforces their blindness. The "input" always matches the "expectation" as he/she perhaps inadvertently assigns 1) de facto "partners" in the process, 2) has all of the thinking conveniently done for him by those "partners" of his making, and 3) becomes too entangled in the "branches" before neglecting the "root" of the faith.

From personal experience, I believe that most genuine scholars know this and often go out of their way in making sure that we do too. On the other hand, there are also those scholars, both Sunni and Shia, in the extreme minority even within their own sect who intentionally and inadvertently benefit from divisions and exclusionary practices, and seem ultimately interested in nothing other than the conviction of their vanity. This age perhaps makes it easier than ever for a Muslim to navigate what is out there and make the right choices, again according to the DIVINE REVELATION of the QURAN, for themselves as individuals. THAT is the revolution and it is underway as it has always been since time immemorial. It is just being televised and spread across cyberspace in this particular age, with all of the subsequent effects of such global "distribution" and "availability" of ideas and information.

I have posted other comments on these matters and if if have the desire or the time, please feel free to check them out. Here's (http://www.banglacricket.com/alochona/showthread.php?t=24064) a particularly lively discussion ... :)

Take care bro and good to see you posting again.

Peace, Sohel.

Ehsan
October 24, 2007, 12:28 PM
Sohel bhai,

Thank you for your kind comments. I am just posting here and there on topics that are inciting a response from me. I am back to school from my workterm and that's why I have been pretty busy which has resulted in lack of posting. Having you, my Dhakaiya fellow, on this board is a great pleasure. With you, you bring us your massive knowledge and experience you have gathered through out your life. I hope to go through the loooong Madhab thread once I am done this semester and go back to my workterm again in January.

Yes, there is no doubt that Quran is the ONLY Divine source. Quran was revelead to Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) by Allah. Prophet (PBUH) is the most perfect and closest being to Allah. Therefore, I for one would not dare not to follow what the Prophet prescribes. One can understand the real value of Hadith and Sunnah if you read the quote I had from Prophet's last sermon.

I believe Islam always had great roles for leaders which can be observed through all the Prophet that God has sent. Islam did not have a central leader after the Prophet died. All Madhabs that now exist are direct result of it. If ONLY we did have a leader. My personal feeling is that it does not matter what madhabs you follow, it should suffice as long as you follow one. All the Madhabs are just different interpretation of what the Prophet has prescribed. What should matter is that we are ALL MUSLIMS.

As far as your comment on everything being available to us in this information age, we must ask ourselves one question, how many of us would have the time to go through it all by ourselves in our hectic life? :)

-Ehsan

al Furqaan
October 24, 2007, 02:43 PM
Sohel bhai,

Thank you for your kind comments. I am just posting here and there on topics that are inciting a response from me. I am back to school from my workterm and that's why I have been pretty busy which has resulted in lack of posting. Having you, my Dhakaiya fellow, on this board is a great pleasure. With you, you bring us your massive knowledge and experience you have gathered through out your life. I hope to go through the loooong Madhab thread once I am done this semester and go back to my workterm again in January.

Yes, there is no doubt that Quran is the ONLY Divine source. Quran was revelead to Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) by Allah. Prophet (PBUH) is the most perfect and closest being to Allah. Therefore, I for one would not dare not to follow what the Prophet prescribes. One can understand the real value of Hadith and Sunnah if you read the quote I had from Prophet's last sermon.

I believe Islam always had great roles for leaders which can be observed through all the Prophet that God has sent. Islam did not have a central leader after the Prophet died. All Madhabs that now exist are direct result of it. If ONLY we did have a leader. My personal feeling is that it does not matter what madhabs you follow, it should suffice as long as you follow one. All the Madhabs are just different interpretation of what the Prophet has prescribed. What should matter is that we are ALL MUSLIMS.

As far as your comment on everything being available to us in this information age, we must ask ourselves one question, how many of us would have the time to go through it all by ourselves in our hectic life? :)

-Ehsan

well said, Ehsan bhai.

:applause::big_hug:

BanCricFan
October 25, 2007, 01:54 PM
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Couldn't have agreed more with your post! Jazak Allah, my dear brother!

BTW- Hazrat Abu bakr, Umar, Uthman and Ali ARE agreed upon as "khulafa' Ar-Rashidun" or rightly guided leaders (successors). Some traditional scholars considered Abdullah ibn Umar also a "Khalifa Ar-Rashid".
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Sohel
October 26, 2007, 04:50 PM
Sohel bhai,

Thank you for your kind comments. I am just posting here and there on topics that are inciting a response from me. I am back to school from my workterm and that's why I have been pretty busy which has resulted in lack of posting. Having you, my Dhakaiya fellow, on this board is a great pleasure. With you, you bring us your massive knowledge and experience you have gathered through out your life. I hope to go through the loooong Madhab thread once I am done this semester and go back to my workterm again in January.

Yes, there is no doubt that Quran is the ONLY Divine source. Quran was revelead to Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) by Allah. Prophet (PBUH) is the most perfect and closest being to Allah. Therefore, I for one would not dare not to follow what the Prophet prescribes. One can understand the real value of Hadith and Sunnah if you read the quote I had from Prophet's last sermon.

I believe Islam always had great roles for leaders which can be observed through all the Prophet that God has sent. Islam did not have a central leader after the Prophet died. All Madhabs that now exist are direct result of it. If ONLY we did have a leader. My personal feeling is that it does not matter what madhabs you follow, it should suffice as long as you follow one. All the Madhabs are just different interpretation of what the Prophet has prescribed. What should matter is that we are ALL MUSLIMS.

Dear Ehsan,

Thank you for the wonderful and thoughtful post. My prayers are with you and may Allah continue to grace you with His blessings. You are indeed a fine and considerate young man with his heart in the right place, and I wish you success.

Only Allah is Infallible and Perfect as is His Divine Message revealed to Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), His Messenger. That is why we must follow the Messenger, as written in the Divine book. The Prophet (PBUH) naturally made that infinitely clear during the course of his blessed life and made NO claims of infallibility and perfection as a man, not as a testament to his "perfection", but as the demonstration of his "submission" to Allah ONLY as His chosen Messenger.

"Whoever obeys the messenger has obeyed God; and whoever turns away, We have not sent you as a guardian over them." (The Message 4:80)

What is so sadly neglected is that the most critical aspects of the messenger’s life have been recorded and captured in the most detailed manner…not in the books of Hadith or tradition…but in the Holy Book itself. The questions that he was asked, and the answers (inspired by God) that he gave:

"They ask you about intoxicants and gambling. Say: 'In them is great harm, and a benefit for mankind; but their harm is greater than their benefit.' And they ask you how much are they to give, Say: 'The excess.' It is thus that God clarifies for you the revelations that you may think." (The Message 2:219)

"And they ask you concerning the Spirit. Say: 'The Spirit is from the command on my Lord, and the knowledge you were given was but very little.'" (The Message 17:85)

The list of questions and answers goes on throughout the Book of God…This is the life of the Messenger, and this is the ‘obedience’ of the messenger…Without ‘obeying the messenger’, we would inadvertently ignore nearly 1/3 of the Book of God which deals with his most authentic narrations authorized and inspired by God which we have been commanded to follow…

“Nor does he speak from personal desire. It is a divine inspiration." (The Message 53:3-4)

LINK (http://www.free-minds.org/)

Allah and His COMPLETE Revelation has no "partners". Islam as per the Revelation also assigns no priests or intermediaries between Allah and salvation as individuals, placing the onus firmly on us. ONLY Allah is Omniscient and Omnipotent, the SOLE AUTHORITY and Judge. That has been made infinitely clear in the Holy Quran. In fact, the article I posted from the "Quranist" website goes into it quite effectively IMHO.

"...O people of the Scripture, let us come to a common agreement between us and between you; that 1) we do not serve except God, and 2) do not set up anything at all with Him, and 3) that none of us takes each other as patrons besides God...." (The Message 3:64)

"And We have sent down to you the Scripture with truth, authenticating what is present of the Scripture and superseding it. So judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their desires from what has come to you of the truth. For each of you We have made laws, and a structure; and had God willed, He would have made you all one nation, but He tests you with what He has given you; so strive to do good. To God you will return all of you, and He will inform you regarding that in which you dispute." (The Message 5:48)

"Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt." 6:114, See also, 7:52, 11:1, 41:3, 10:37 and 12:111

"Have they not looked at the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all the things God has created? Does it ever occur to them that the end of their life may be near? Which HADITH, besides this (Quran) do they believe in?" 7:185

"You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them." 17:36

Such clarity obviously restricts the role scholars and scholarship, irrespective of how valuable they are in our individual as well as cultural lives, as that restriction can also prevent us from going astray. So, IMHO it is not at all about the importance of following a particular Madhab, but about "how" we’re doing the "following" in our hearts and actions.

"And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!" (The Message 39:45)

"And who is more wicked than one who is reminded of his Lord’s verses but he turned away from them, and he forgot what his hands had done. We have made veils upon their hearts from understanding them, and a deafness in their ears. And if you invite them to the guidance, they will never be guided." (The Message 18:57)

For what it's worth, the wonderful absence of anger, sectarianism, malice and impiety in your kind and considerate tone in your post makes me think you are following your convictions correctly, and THAT is why I am proud of you as a fellow Muslim among other things ... :)

Only Allah knows what is truly in the hearts of His creations.

As far as your comment on everything being available to us in this information age, we must ask ourselves one question, how many of us would have the time to go through it all by ourselves in our hectic life?

-Ehsan

If I may humbly suggest from personal experience, it may be worth our while to FIND the time to read the Quran in good faith for a wide variety of reasons. Once we do, we increase our faith and consequently increase peace and compassion in our hearts through sincere acts of piety, and that is "guaranteed" help us manage some of the stress presented by the hectic life we know too well.

Take care bro, and best of luck with your studies. I leave you with some food for thought, whenever you have the time.

Peace and best possible regards, Sohel Bhai ... :)

AL-IKHLAS: (THE DECLARATION OF [GOD'S] PERFECTION)

THE HUNDRED-TWELFH SURAH

Total Verses: 4

MECCA PERIOD

Introduction

AS REPORTED in a great number of authentic Traditions, the Prophet was wont to describe this suruh as "equivalent to one-third of the whole Qur'an" (Bukhari, Muslim, Ibn Hanbal, Abu Da'ud, Nasa'i, Tirmidhi, Ibn Majah). It seems to have been revealed in the early part of the Mecca period.

IN THE NAME OF GOD, THE MOST GRACIOUS, THE DISPENSER OF GRACE

(1) SAY: "He is the One God:

(2) "God the Eternal, the Uncaused Cause of All Being. 1

(3) "He begets not, and neither is He begotten;

(4) "and there is nothing that could be compared with Him. 2

1 This rendering gives no more than an approximate meaning of the term as-samad, which occurs in the Qur'an only once, and is applied to God alone. It comprises the concepts of Primary Cause and eternal, independent Being, combined with the idea that everything existing or conceivable goes back to Him as its source and is therefore, dependent on Him for its beginning as well as for its continued existence.

2 Cf. note 2 on 89:3, as well as surah 19, note 77. The fact that God is one and unique in every respect, without beginning and without end, has its logical correlate in the statement that "there is nothing that could be compared with Him" - thus precluding any possibility of describing or defining Him (see note 88 on the last sentence of 6:100). Consequently, the quality of His Being is beyond the range of human comprehension or imagination: which also explains why any attempt at "depicting" God by means of figurative representations or even abstract symbols must be qualified as a blasphemous denial of the truth.

LINK (http://www.geocities.com/masad02/112.html)

Chapter 112

In the name of God, the Almighty, the Merciful.

112:1 Say: "He is God, the One,"

112:2 "God, the Absolute,"

112:3 "He does not beget, nor was He begotten,"

112:4 "And there is none who are His equal."

LINK (http://www.free-minds.org/quran/PM/112)

cricket_pagol
October 26, 2007, 05:05 PM
sohel bhai, thanks for all the info. http://www.free-minds.org (http://www.free-minds.org/women/scarf.htm) is a great dig!

Sohel
October 26, 2007, 05:12 PM
sohel bhai, thanks for all the info. http://www.free-minds.org (http://www.free-minds.org/women/scarf.htm) is a great dig!

My pleasure bro ... :)