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Ahmed_B
March 8, 2004, 01:47 PM
As said by Richard McInnes in his writings about current junior team's performance: "Without meaning any disrespect to anyone, in general there is a lack of discipline across the sub continent as a whole, with traffic being the first thing that springs to mind. Changing a mindset that is in grained from an early age is very difficult. "

the indiscipline problem in the subcontinent is true.. but how much does it realy effect the game??
anyone has opinions that differ or further elaborate this observation by our junior team coach??..

billah
March 8, 2004, 01:58 PM
The "mindset" term comes from looking at things from a broader angle. This can't be used as an excuse though. India & Pakistan has same traffic problem. They play great cricket. We don't have as long a cricket tradition as them. The Indians and Pakis have the mindset of winners. Good domestic cricket, training, dedication, application and good coaching will give us that holy grail. Blaming poor cricket performance on the general "mindset" of the subcontinent is a very poor excuse.

Ahmed_B
March 8, 2004, 02:09 PM
.. u mean just another effort to hide bigger loopholes behind silly excuses?

Piranha
March 8, 2004, 02:45 PM
<i>Well said billah</i>
India & Pakistan has same traffic problem. They play great cricket.


I agree that the subcontinetal mindset is not the only factor behind our poor performance. However, it is <strong>one of the first</strong> stumbling blocks a bangladeshi cricketer will face.

<i> nicely phrased by crickethorizon</i>

the indiscipline problem in the subcontinent is true.. but how much does it realy effect the game??


I supect that it affects the game most at the early stages. I.e at the developmental stages that McInnes is facing. If the player can overcome it, the mindset problem will eventually become a non-issue. (as is the case with many indian and pakistani criketers im sure).

The problem with us is that some players have never thought of this problem as an issue, and consequently have not overcome it.

[Edited on 8-3-2004 by Piranha]

[Edited on 8-3-2004 by Piranha : typos in my F@@@ing tags!]

[Edited on 8-3-2004 by Piranha : more typos]

SS
March 8, 2004, 02:46 PM
if you give that excuse what will you give for nepal, canada, kenya and others...they improved far better than BD

Zobair
March 8, 2004, 02:50 PM
it is not too smart to blame the current "lack of discipline" in our cricket on the apparent "general lack of discipline" in the subcontinental society. Pakistan, India and Sri Lanka certainly are cases in point. IMO, a sound "cricket culture" (or lack of) is the overriding influence. A generation or two of solid FC and age group cricket from now, and we should be well on our way to having that elusive "cricket mindset". However, this is a matter of time, and will require patience from all sides!

billah
March 8, 2004, 02:52 PM
Sorry SS, none of those countries have improved "far better" than Bangladesh. Kenya's cricket is in a very sorry state. They have no future to look forward to at the moment.

billah
March 8, 2004, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by SS
if you give that excuse what will you give for nepal, canada, kenya and others...they improved far better than BD

Nepal - Barely emerging.
Canada - Has no cricket infrastructure, imported players, amateurs.
Kenya - Depends on a total of 13.67 part-time, ageing, cricketers. Retiring. No bright new prospects. We're talking, insurance salesmen, farmers etc. No salaried managers or coaches even.

SS
March 8, 2004, 03:03 PM
Nepal -- beat BD under 19
Kenya - beat BD last 6 times out of 7
Canada -- beat BD in world cup

even farmers, part-timers play for Kenya and can win against our "professional", "hard - working", "good management controlled" team!!!

billah
March 8, 2004, 03:20 PM
They won against India too, what's your point?

billah
March 8, 2004, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by SS
Nepal -- beat BD under 19
Kenya - beat BD last 6 times out of 7
Canada -- beat BD in world cup

even farmers, part-timers play for Kenya and can win against our "professional", "hard - working", "good management controlled" team!!!

If we take your logic & expand it: kenya won against even India, and, we beat Kenya, so are we better than India? Reality is, Kenya has a few good (old) cricketers for the last 10 years. Same old names, we all know them. They play league in Dhaka. Asif Karim, Kenyan skipper at the WC, said after their impressive victory against a Test nation, that (paraphrasing here), it was a sad day for Kenyan cricket; that they had no plan in the works for future to follow up on such successes.

Optimist
March 8, 2004, 03:25 PM
Billah, you are right to some extent. But here is what I found in a kenyan website cricketsafari.com:

"Most of the Kenyan World Cup squad were over 30, but now they have blooded four or five players under the age of 22."

billah
March 8, 2004, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by Optimist
Billah, you are right to some extent. But here is what I found in a kenyan website cricketsafari.com:

"Most of the Kenyan World Cup squad were over 30, but now they have blooded four or five players under the age of 22."

Within the same timeframe, Bangladesh has produced 40-50 new cricketers of First Class standard, may be even more. It is a deceptive scenario with our winless record. My point is, we already have the process in motion to produce good future cricketers. It is working. We also have a huge supporter base. We are way ahead in my opinion. Once this win drought is over, the boosted morale will also positive effect all the younger cricketers of every stage. They same way "If Sachin can do it, Shewag can too" affects the Indians. Imran influenced every Wasim, Wakar and Sami.

Rubu
March 8, 2004, 03:34 PM
with the only exception of bangladesh and australia, there is a inverse relation between decipline and cricket quality. all the country that has good decipline is bad at cricket and countries with bad decipline is good at circket.
srilanka: a war rackaged country. good.
india & pakinstan: poverty and all other problems: good.
kenya: even more problem and dishonesty.
zim: also good even with problems.
england: deciplined. are they so good?
WI: quite deciplined. and not so good.

got the idea?

billah
March 8, 2004, 03:41 PM
Kudos, Dear Agent. Just to add to your post, the Australians, as a nation, as they like to portray themselves, "Relaxed, laid back" are downright lazy. If you ever try to deal with a business organization there, you will know. It takes one month for a foreign funded cashier's check to clear at a bank. The businesses take a long time to return phone calls. This is from personal experience. I asked several expatriot Bangladeshis, they all said the same thing: "These guys do not want to work." The cricket team, however, is quite different, it seems.

Optimist
March 8, 2004, 03:47 PM
Within the same timeframe, Bangladesh has produced 40-50 new cricketers of First Class standard, may be even more. It is a deceptive scenario with our winless record. My point is, we already have the process in motion to produce good future cricketers. It is working. We also have a huge supporter base. We are way ahead in my opinion. Once this win drought is over, the boosted morale will also positive effect all the younger cricketers of every stage. They same way "If Sachin can do it, Shewag can too" affects the Indians. Imran influenced every Wasim, Wakar and Sami.

Although I myself is quite optimistic, I can't quite agree with you. Our player base and support base was always much bigger then Kenya. Whether the current structure will work is still an open question. As seen in Zimbabwe, a much smaller player base may produce a better result. The climb to the higher ranking will need much more than whatever has been already done. As has been discussed in earlier threads improving the training facilities and consequent improvement of first class structure are the two most important things. Although we are hearing these things will be done, not much has been done (training facilities has been promised in the newly built stadiums; let's see what happen when new govt. is formed).

[Edited on 8-3-2004 by Optimist]

Rubu
March 8, 2004, 03:53 PM
thanks billah again. that means bangladesh is the only exception.

SS
March 8, 2004, 04:08 PM
if you think we don have enough funding that's wrong..as usual we just are corrupted from bottom to top level...
just wait even this Kenya may be just with few crickets will beat future BD team again..because sports personel in Kenya seemed to bbe dedicated ( as I saw them in Marathon or other events)...their gov't may be corrupted but their players are more dedicated and carry out their heritage of being "lions" but tigers just say they are "tigers" they don work for it...
as u said about Australians' bank experience..I think it'z even in other countries where processing a check requires investigations and credit checks. Neways, i just wanted to say...it's not possible with this mentality of our playes.

billah
March 8, 2004, 04:14 PM
Although I myself is quite optimistic, I can't quite agree with you. Our player base and support base was always much bigger then Kenya. Whether the current structure will work is still an open question. As seen in Zimbabwe, a much smaller player base may produce a better result. The climb to the higher ranking will need much more than whatever has been already done. As has been discussed in earlier threads improving the training facilities and consequent improvement of first class structure are the two most important things. Although we are hearing these things will be done, not much has been done (training facilities has been promised in the newly built stadiums; let's see what happen when new govt. is formed).

[Edited on 8-3-2004 by Optimist] [/quote]

The isolated, super-rich, small group of people that represent the Zimbabwe cricket community, has been playing the game for centuries longer than us, under various, assumed identity. This is not the case with Bangladesh. We have half-heartedly really gotten in to this for about 30 years, most of it being not noteworthy. So, the two cases, in my opinion, are not comparable, under the context of the present topic, where, the question of culture is being discussed.

I do agree with you 100% regarding the training, present structure and facilities. We need to speed up, for sure.

[Edited on 8-3-2004 by billah]

billah
March 8, 2004, 04:22 PM
[quote]
as u said about Australians' bank experience..I think it'z even in other countries where processing a check requires investigations and credit checks.

Dear SS: We may be talking about two different scenarios, Please read my post once again on this.

Neways, i just wanted to say...it's not possible with this mentality of our playes.

I'm sorry SS, I don't have the audacity to just write-off our cricket or cricketers.

SS
March 8, 2004, 04:25 PM
agree with Mr. Billah that super rich isolated society playing for long...but in life time if a child take their bat frm 10 yrs supposedly...it has nuthing to do with how long their fore fathers are playing..even our kids started playing cricket especially kids from rich parents started way earlier in their teen years..so a if u compare a teen in Zimb who played in 80's with a teen in BD there'z no diff...teens born same time, getting cricket bat same time and playing same games with same facilities, just the diff is area where they born and how they start their thinking process.
then how come sri lanka became so good..so dedicated i know their history is for long but they are just diff frm us..a sri lankan player who plays in their domestic team gets chance after good performance..don't we follow the same methods to pick up our players...then why this much diff?

Zobair
March 8, 2004, 04:54 PM
SS bhai! if you are right then it seems we Bangladeshis are just inferior quality people, hopeless really, chimps are more worthy of better infrastructure and training than our cricketers! Let us just close shop and wait for the inevitable. Failure! Failure! and more abject failure, regradless of effort, training etc. etc. I, for one, am ready to take my chances, and hope for improvement in the near future, stay optimistic for a while yet!

billah
March 8, 2004, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by pompous
SS bhai! if you are right then it seems we Bangladeshis are just inferior quality people, hopeless really, chimps are more worthy of better infrastructure and training than our cricketers! Let us just close shop and wait for the inevitable. Failure! Failure! and more abject failure, regradless of effort, training etc. etc. I, for one, am ready to take my chances, and hope for improvement in the near future, stay optimistic for a while yet!

Ye! , & by the way SS, Sri Lanka played the role of the whippin boys for a loooong time before they finally came of age. Time, my friend, is a great remedy. We look particularly bad, only because, due to the commercialization of cricket, we are having to play much much more cricket than other nations when they were developing. So, the losing record is building fast.

Rubu
March 8, 2004, 05:10 PM
if we see the history of india, they won the first test match at their 22nd. but it took them 20 years to play these matches.
[numbers may not be correct by close]

fab
March 8, 2004, 10:31 PM
Originally posted by pompous
it is not too smart to blame the current "lack of discipline" in our cricket on the apparent "general lack of discipline" in the subcontinental society
....
However, this is a matter of time, and will require patience from all sides!
So what you are saying is that this lack of discipline in our cricket comes from our lack of experience only? Aww come on, admit it, he is right to a certain extent - the mindset problem is a mixture of both culturally ingrained indiscipline and inexperience...

[Edited on 9-3-2004 by fab]

fab
March 8, 2004, 10:42 PM
Originally posted by billah
"These guys do not want to work." The cricket team, however, is quite different, it seems.
Excuse me? I think you are wrong to make such a generalisation based on your single anecdotal experience. Yes, most Australians are generally laid back, but that does not equate them to all being lazy and indiscplined. In fact:

"According to the OECD, Australians now work the longest hours in the rich-world. Even more than the Japanese." SOURCE (http://www.crikey.com.au/business/2003/08/27-0005.html)
(Tintin :P)

With regards to sport, the mentality is TOTALLY different and not at all laid back but very competitive. Australians are sports mad - full stop. This is clearly evident in their excellent performance in international sporting events (apart from soccer). Those who are too fat to play any sport are generally glued to the TV watching it.

sage
March 9, 2004, 03:24 AM
When you are learning something, process is very important. Good university and bad university differ in the process of teaching. As a student, if you follow a good process chances of your success are higher. Arguably Thats the reason, better university create better talent.

Another analogy is riding bicycle, Once you know how to ride it you will never forget it. 10 years 15 years later if you ride a bike you will be able to control it. India and Pakistan has learned how to ride the bike. Thats why they are keep on winning. Bangladesh is still learning how to win. To achieve it you need decipline. You have a winning formula. Mcinnes australian formula is proven. Australia is winning over and over again using this formula. Our boys has to be deciplined enough to implement it.
Pakistan India also has a formula to win. But our coach is not indian or pakistani.

Thank you!:)

observer
March 9, 2004, 09:33 AM
Some really interesting comments there, make for good reading. I am in a bit of a hurry so probably did not read all as closely as i should have.

Can i just clarify one point, i was certainly not saying the "Cultural lack of discipline' was an excuse, merley a contributing factor. In my observations of international cricket, probably only 15years or so, far less than some of you no doubt. It is commonly observed that the subcontinent teams, can crack under pressure, when the chips are down. the often begin to fight amongst themselves etc and the game plan goes out the window. To me this is a lack of discipline. Don't get me wrong the Australians do it as well at times, but i would estimate less frequently and hence is why they tend to win tight games more often then not. Australia is certainly not a perfect country and neither are the players, but one thing they do well is stick together when things are tough. This may be due to our convict heritage i do not know. But when the chips a down, everyone grabs the person beside them and helps out. This is something i have tried to instill into the players, it is something we do before we walk on the field before every match. Form a circle, arm in arm, look at the player either side of you, and those two are your responsibility for the day. You have to help them, when they need it, if they mis field or drop a catch, you need to keep them going, don't let them slip away. My observations to date, are that when things get tough, many of our players go inside themselves, close up and withdraw from what is happening. Unfortunately this will not win you too many games. I definitely think we are geting better in this area, but as with most things it takes time to be able to do it consistently.

Long term success at the senior level will only come when we have a highly competitive, good quality domestic competition, played on good wickets, between teams that are well prepared. To do this requires a massive amount of work from numerous different areas. I would be keen to hear some ideas from you on how best this can be approached. Is it possible to make the National League 4 day competition the premier competition in the country? How does the all powerful Dhaka league then fit in?

Look forward to your ideas and really enjoy reading your thoughts on cricket. Very enlightening.

Apologies for any typing areas.
Cheers

chinaman
March 9, 2004, 09:45 AM
Originally posted by observer

My observations to date, are that when things get tough, many of our players go inside themselves, close up and withdraw from what is happening.

Excellent observation! Could not have said any better. We need to get out of that vicious cycle and get out fast.

SS
March 9, 2004, 10:14 AM
you guys are just way to good in observations and explanations..lolz
hats off to u..i am not that good
but with my simple words i can say..
we need to create a cricket fantasy world ..like the worlds in fiction books or movies...like in incubator...where we kept our players in a "world" not affected by our thinking, our politics, our poverty, our indiscipline behav(!!), mental weakness and everything. It should be a world where all are dedicated inhabitants are like only criketers beyond any restrictions...just a thought

Rubu
March 9, 2004, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by SS
you guys are just way to good in observations and explanations..lolz
hats off to u..i am not that good
but with my simple words i can say..
we need to create a cricket fantasy world ..like the worlds in fiction books or movies...like in incubator...where we kept our players in a "world" not affected by our thinking, our politics, our poverty, our indiscipline behav(!!), mental weakness and everything. It should be a world where all are dedicated inhabitants are like only criketers beyond any restrictions...just a thought

u r welcome to donate your first child to that world as the first inhibitant! lol

billah
March 9, 2004, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by fab
Originally posted by billah
"These guys do not want to work." The cricket team, however, is quite different, it seems.
Excuse me? I think you are wrong to make such a generalisation based on your single anecdotal experience. Yes, most Australians are generally laid back, but that does not equate them to all being lazy and indiscplined. In fact:

"According to the OECD, Australians now work the longest hours in the rich-world. Even more than the Japanese." SOURCE (http://www.crikey.com.au/business/2003/08/27-0005.html)
(Tintin :P)

With regards to sport, the mentality is TOTALLY different and not at all laid back but very competitive. Australians are sports mad - full stop. This is clearly evident in their excellent performance in international sporting events (apart from soccer). Those who are too fat to play any sport are generally glued to the TV watching it.

Excuse me fab, I wasn't making a generalization, I was merely reporting someone else's generalization. I myself have several "anecdotal" experiences in dealing with the Australians. ((edited)). My apologies.

[Edited on 10-3-2004 by pompous : Apologies accepted Billah bhai but I am deleting the line! :P you should know better bro!]

[Edited on 10-3-2004 by pompous]

fab
March 10, 2004, 01:55 AM
(((edited - quote)))
Yikes. Your statement sounds like spite :)

Anyhow, I fail to see how the work ethics of Australians have anything to do with our cricketers needing to learn DISCIPLINE.

[Edited on 10-3-2004 by fab : need to be decent]


[Edited on 10-3-2004 by Zunaid : recursive edit; felt it was needed]

billah
March 10, 2004, 04:17 AM
Anyhow, I fail to see how the work ethics of Australians have anything to do with our cricketers needing to learn DISCIPLINE.

That's exactly what I was saying also. I'm sure I was a bit too candid with my last one. Sorry.:)

sunny747
March 10, 2004, 11:02 AM
Why i'm not able to hold my tears??:fanflag: