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View Full Version : The Avg. 20 Rule. Read and Discuss.


Roey Haque
March 27, 2012, 04:01 PM
Ayo,
What's cracking Tiger fans? Everything good?

Nazimuddin was terrible in the series. So you can guess my shock when I found out that his ODI avg. was just 13, and yet the selectors picked him! But picking him over Kayes, Junaid and Sharier Nafees? All with ODI averages above 20 ( 31 in Sharier's case), I just fail to see the logic. Don't get me wrong,I'm not calling sour grapes or anything. I really liked Nazim in the ICL, but picking a guy in this age to open a National Team with an average of 13 does seem a bit humiliating.

And as far as potential and talent goes, we all know that Junaid, Kayes and Sharier are all beasts as well. So why throw the average out of the window, just because they might have come across bad form recently? Have they? I don't even know. But let's make a formal rule from here on.

Never again should we pick a batsmen with an average under 20.

Peace out,

Roey

Gowza
March 27, 2012, 06:29 PM
well look at it this way, when nazimuddin was first picked for the national team it was as the t20 opener. he smashed a few balls around for a few games and did well but then started to lose form when he was picked for the ODI team. he did poorly in his original national team run and was dropped. now a few years later he's come back into the frame as a test match opener, did alright in one innings so now everyone is high about him again. due to everyone being high about his one good test match performance he was selected again as the ODI opener due to poor form from imrul.

and that is why we are where we are today.

i agree an average of 13 as an international opener is humiliating. ideally we shouldn't pick someone averaging under 20. thing is BD are short of good openers (not talent but performers).

i reckon we should bring anamul up into the team, give him a run see how he goes, he's possibly the most talented batting prospect BD have atm, i know he is young and doesn't have a good list A record but he's always been a solid player, that list A record is just about the only blip on his record if you look at what he's done in various domestic competitions and age group level stuff.

the only other person to try is asif ahmed who is probably going to be a better #3, there really aren't many other openers worth trying atm. we have some good middle order prospects and possible #3 prospects (shuvagata, mominul) but we've tried basically all of the talented openers aside from anamul and i don't think we want to go back to guys like nazmus, NI or shamsur, they need to really perform big before making a come back.

Ajfar
March 27, 2012, 07:03 PM
Yes totally Shahriar Nafees is a beast, specially against Ireland and Zim.

Is it just me or do you guys also see the random hyperlinks in the above the 2 posts? and when you click on them, you end up in some random website?

NoName
March 27, 2012, 07:05 PM
Nope, don't see the hyperlinks...uh-oh :-p

Roey Haque
March 27, 2012, 07:51 PM
Is it just me or do you guys also see the random hyperlinks in the above the 2 posts? and when you click on them, you end up in some random website?

It's you. Haha.

Roey Haque
March 27, 2012, 07:54 PM
@ Gowza

Yeah, but you are overlooking my alternate choices. Kayes, Junaid or Sharier. Just give Kayes back the spot, will ye? He's the closest thing to a Javed Omar Belim we got . Steady shot blocker with the occasional boundary. Hey, it suits me! Just give that boy Tamim some support.

Peace out,

Roey

Gowza
March 27, 2012, 08:13 PM
Yeah, but you are overlooking my alternate choices. Kayes, Junaid or Sharier. Just give Kayes back the spot, will ye? He's the closest thing to a Javed Omar Belim we got . Steady shot blocker with the occasional boundary. Hey, it suits me! Just give that boy Tamim some support.

Peace out,

Roey

well i'd give it back to one of them before bringing back types like nazmus sadat and shamsur rahman but really kayes, junaid and SN weren't performing very well either. also it's not just about the numbers, not with a team like BD, it's also about the true skill of the player and their current abilities and their potential. imrul did well for awhile but he still has a whole lot to work on, he gets a lot of edges and mistimed shots, technique issues. junaid has technique issues and SN just can't find the consistency as well as some technique issues.

we want a decent if not better than decent opener. these guys are all at a point where they are nearing their prime as players. they have soo many technical and mental issues and the thing is they've had all this time to rectify these issues and they haven't.

i will say this, if we are to go back to one of them then it should be imrul, he averages 29 against the top 8 teams which is actually better than his overall average by a couple of points but he still has major issues.

personally i think it's worth giving anamul a run, i really think he will work out, but if he doesn't then imrul would be the one i'd go back to.

SN is completely horrible against good teams (average of 18) and junaid well his overall average is poor at 23 and poorer against top teams at 22.

clearly imrul has been the best so far.

Roey Haque
March 27, 2012, 08:28 PM
@ Gowza

Well said. I haven't seen Anamul play, so can't really say much. But experience always counts, doesn't it? Haven't we raped our under 19 team enough? Let those guys play in the league for at least 2 years, before donning the red and green. I don't know, but I'm just still bitter I guess. Kayes would have won it for us, that Nazimuddin had to ruin it. Plus, he's great at the slips too, safe hands.

Lol, Kayes, you better make me proud if you get your spot back after I'm backing you up so much here at the forums! Lol.

Peace out,

Roey

playmaker
March 28, 2012, 05:07 AM
I think nazimuddin should look to perform against quality bowlers in the BPL, average is not a point here

even TIK averages below 30

Gowza
March 28, 2012, 05:24 AM
the best BD players are now averaging above 30 and the average ones for the national team are averaging around 30 or just under. it's no longer just about being able to play quality bowling SOMETIMES, now it's about playing quality bowling well on a much more consistent basis, that is the only way for BD to become a more competitive team.

lets not go backwards. ashraful, alok and aftab were the era of just being able to play quality bowling sometimes. shakib, nasir etc are the era of being able to do it consistently.

btw tamim's, performance in the final bumped his average up to a touch above 30.

Roey Haque
March 28, 2012, 06:53 AM
I think nazimuddin should look to perform against quality bowlers in the BPL, average is not a point here

even TIK averages below 30


Nope,wrong. Average is the only point here. And Nazim was the only one with an avg. below 20 amongst the batsmen, and even the allrounders, barring Mortaza and Razzak, who I never considered all rounders. We are using 20 here as the barometer, tattoo that in your head, not 30. I wish we had the luxury to pick players with 30 up avg. only.

Crisis
March 28, 2012, 07:38 AM
Yes totally Shahriar Nafees is a beast, specially against Ireland and Zim.

Is it just me or do you guys also see the random hyperlinks in the above the 2 posts? and when you click on them, you end up in some random website?

Stop visiting interesting websites... :applause:

akabir77
March 28, 2012, 08:59 AM
Nazim played superbly in the test. best thing was he looked so natural in the test when most bd players looked out of water. and that justifies him being picked as a ODI player. opening position is very complicated position and picking and changing will not take us any where. Imrul, Zun or Sha all got their chances and none was able to cement their position. I wished they didn't replaced imrul but since they did I think Nazim should get his fare amount of chance before calling him what ever. remind you he did very well in dom cricket over last couple of years before getting the call. so I suggest to the trigger happy fans be cool and patient before demanding change every other game.

lamisa
March 28, 2012, 12:20 PM
that rule should only apply when the player has had fair exposure to international cricket

Zeeshan
March 28, 2012, 12:22 PM
dhurru Roy bhai...eida ki thred khullen...gaan bajnaa koi?

Roey Haque
March 28, 2012, 12:57 PM
dhurru Roy bhai...eida ki thred khullen...gaan bajnaa koi?

:). Songs, analysis, your boy will do it all.

It's Roey btw, not Roy.

Peace out,

Roey

shuziburo
March 28, 2012, 12:57 PM
Nazim played superbly in the test. best thing was he looked so natural in the test when most bd players looked out of water. and that justifies him being picked as a ODI player. opening position is very complicated position and picking and changing will not take us any where. Imrul, Zun or Sha all got their chances and none was able to cement their position. I wished they didn't replaced imrul but since they did I think Nazim should get his fare amount of chance before calling him what ever. remind you he did very well in dom cricket over last couple of years before getting the call. so I suggest to the trigger happy fans be cool and patient before demanding change every other game.

Nazimuddin has the perfect temperament for tests, but horrible temperament for ODI and T20. He should be played where his strength lies.

AsifTheManRahman
March 28, 2012, 01:03 PM
Ideally, we'll pick players who have averaged 40+ in the couple of years (or at least 12 months) leading up to selection. Since that is still not realistic with this bunch, we should look at picking players who have averaged at least 30+ in recent times. What they did 5 years ago is irrelevant. Someone could still average in the mid 20's because he screwed up at the beginning of his career, but what really matters is recent performance.

zsayeed
March 28, 2012, 01:07 PM
that rule should only apply when the player has had fair exposure to international cricket

Ideally, we'll pick players who have averaged 40+ in the couple of years leading up to selection. Since that is still not realistic with this bunch, we should look at picking players who have averaged at least 30+ in recent times. What they did 5 years ago is irrelevant. Someone could still average in the mid 20's because he screwed up at the beginning of his career, but what really matters is recent performance.

But Nazimuddin does not have a good List A avg ether: 23.85.
He may be good for Test, but certainly not limited overs.

AsifTheManRahman
March 28, 2012, 01:17 PM
I wasn't suggesting we pick Nazimuddin for ODI's, just laying out what I think one of the criteria for selection should be. Imrul should be the first choice opener for now. Nazimuddin should have been reserved for Tests only.

Roey Haque
March 28, 2012, 01:19 PM
I wasn't suggesting we pick Nazimuddin for ODI's, just laying out what I think one of the criteria for selection should be. Imrul should be the first choice opener for now. Nazimuddin should have been reserved for Tests only.
Yeah, that's what I was saying from the beginning.

AsifTheManRahman
March 28, 2012, 01:30 PM
Now let's look at how some of our batsmen have fared in the twelve months leading up to and including our latest ODI on 22 March this year (from Cricinfo Statsguru).

Rahim: <table class="engineTable"><tbody><tr class="data1"><td>18</td> <td>18</td> <td>4</td> <td>506</td> <td class="padAst">101</td> <td>36.14</td> <td>675</td> <td>74.96</td></tr></tbody></table>Riyad:<table class="engineTable"><tbody><tr class="data1"><td>15</td> <td>14</td> <td>7</td> <td>325</td> <td>68*</td> <td>46.42</td> <td>391</td> <td>83.12</td> <td>
</td></tr></tbody></table>Shakib:<table class="engineTable"><tbody><tr class="data1"><td>18</td> <td>17</td> <td>2</td> <td>659</td> <td class="padAst">79</td> <td>43.93</td> <td>801</td> <td>82.27</td> <td>
</td></tr></tbody></table>Tamim:<table class="engineTable"><tbody><tr class="data1"><td>18</td> <td>18</td> <td>1</td> <td>571</td> <td class="padAst">70</td> <td>33.58</td> <td>746</td> <td>76.54</td> <td>
</td></tr></tbody></table>Nasir (also his entire career so far):<table class="engineTable"><tbody><tr class="data1"><td>14</td> <td>12</td> <td>2</td> <td>419</td> <td class="padAst">100</td> <td>41.90</td> <td>576</td> <td>72.74</td></tr></tbody></table>

Gowza
March 29, 2012, 02:56 AM
^and we want to continue upwards. saying average means nothing is giving the players the choice to not care how often they perform when we want them to perform regularly.

Roey Haque
March 29, 2012, 08:21 AM
^and we want to continue upwards. saying average means nothing is giving the players the choice to not care how often they perform when we want them to perform regularly.

Exactly.

zsayeed
March 29, 2012, 12:30 PM
Now let's look at how some of our batsmen have fared in the twelve months leading up to and including our latest ODI on 22 March this year (from Cricinfo Statsguru).

Rahim: <table class="engineTable"><tbody><tr class="data1"><td>18</td> <td>18</td> <td>4</td> <td>506</td> <td class="padAst">101</td> <td>36.14</td> <td>675</td> <td>74.96</td></tr></tbody></table>Riyad:<table class="engineTable"><tbody><tr class="data1"><td>15</td> <td>14</td> <td>7</td> <td>325</td> <td>68*</td> <td>46.42</td> <td>391</td> <td>83.12</td> <td>
</td></tr></tbody></table>Shakib:<table class="engineTable"><tbody><tr class="data1"><td>18</td> <td>17</td> <td>2</td> <td>659</td> <td class="padAst">79</td> <td>43.93</td> <td>801</td> <td>82.27</td> <td>
</td></tr></tbody></table>Tamim:<table class="engineTable"><tbody><tr class="data1"><td>18</td> <td>18</td> <td>1</td> <td>571</td> <td class="padAst">70</td> <td>33.58</td> <td>746</td> <td>76.54</td> <td>
</td></tr></tbody></table>Nasir (also his entire career so far):<table class="engineTable"><tbody><tr class="data1"><td>14</td> <td>12</td> <td>2</td> <td>419</td> <td class="padAst">100</td> <td>41.90</td> <td>576</td> <td>72.74</td></tr></tbody></table>

In fact if you look at the last 12 months for BD batsmen against G8 only then Nasir stands out.

http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff430/zsayeed/last12bd.jpg
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=2;filter=advanced;opposition=1;op position=2;opposition=3;opposition=4;opposition=5; opposition=6;opposition=7;opposition=8;orderby=bat ting_average;spanmin1=29+Mar+2011;spanval1=span;te am=25;template=results;type=batting

AsifTheManRahman
March 29, 2012, 04:17 PM
Woah - Riyad = goriber Bevan?
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Navo
March 29, 2012, 04:42 PM
With 1 50 and 1 duck, I don't think Riyad is goriber Bevan. Though his Strike Rate is more impressive than people give him credit for. But tbh, as he comes at 7, his SR should be even higher as he should be scoring of every ball and hitting boundaries more frequently at the death

22Yards
March 29, 2012, 05:16 PM
Riyads stats suggest how selfish he has been throughout the past. 60 average phushh

zsayeed
March 29, 2012, 06:00 PM
No, that is because of Riyadh's 6 Not Outs.... he has a knack for doing that. It's actually 243/10 = 24.3 average...to think of it.

Gowza
March 29, 2012, 06:23 PM
i know riyad's stats make him look a bit selfish but look at runs scored, innings played and strike rate.

he's got 243 runs in 10 innings, mushy one of our better batsmen has got only 55 more runs (298) but has played 3 more innings, strike rate of 75 to riyad's 83. mushy also has 4 not outs.

these stats put riyad on a similar level to mushy. of course if i had to pick one of them to finish off a match or even just generally bat for me i'd be picking mushy but stats wise riyad is pretty close to mushy and we consider mushy to be our 3rd best batsman atm (unless nasir has jumped ahead of him).

AsifTheManRahman
March 29, 2012, 06:31 PM
Riyad still needs to do quite a bit of work to become a solid #6/#7. Might be worth the investment though.
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Navo
March 29, 2012, 08:27 PM
The thing is, when you see him bat, you know he can bat. It's whether he has the ability to take a match by the horns and steer it Bangladesh's way - THAT is the question.

Tiger444
March 29, 2012, 10:14 PM
i know riyad's stats make him look a bit selfish but look at runs scored, innings played and strike rate.

he's got 243 runs in 10 innings, mushy one of our better batsmen has got only 55 more runs (298) but has played 3 more innings, strike rate of 75 to riyad's 83. mushy also has 4 not outs.

these stats put riyad on a similar level to mushy. of course if i had to pick one of them to finish off a match or even just generally bat for me i'd be picking mushy but stats wise riyad is pretty close to mushy and we consider mushy to be our 3rd best batsman atm (unless nasir has jumped ahead of him).

That should give us the queue to put Mushy back at #6 and put Mahmudullah at #4. Not saying we should put this as permanent but at least give Mahmudullah a try there. Mushy has gotten his chances at #4 and hasn't really capitalized. Also I like Mushy a lot as a finisher and has looked good as a finisher. So let him just worry about finishing rather then constructing the innings. Mahmudullah is more of a builder then a finisher and needs more time to build his innings then Mushy. So I think it would be good to put Mahmudullah up the order and see what he can do.

Gowza
March 29, 2012, 10:26 PM
That should give us the queue to put Mushy back at #6 and put Mahmudullah at #4. Not saying we should put this as permanent but at least give Mahmudullah a try there. Mushy has gotten his chances at #4 and hasn't really capitalized. Also I like Mushy a lot as a finisher and has looked good as a finisher. So let him just worry about finishing rather then constructing the innings. Mahmudullah is more of a builder then a finisher and needs more time to build his innings then Mushy. So I think it would be good to put Mahmudullah up the order and see what he can do.

you're probably right but it's a bit of a scary thought to me since the team is doing so well with the current order of things. but yes mushy is a better finisher and riyad is more of an innings builder.

riyad has batted once (for some reason i thought he had done it more often) at #4 against australia and scored 68* and he's batted once at #5 against zimbabwe scoring 7. he also batted once at #3 scoring 35 against pakistan.

i thought riyad had batted up the order more often...why do people say he's failed up the order....3 innings batting top 5 and that's a 55 average and if you just take the twice he batted top 4 (the innings where he batted at #5 isn't as relevant since we are talking about him batting at #4) then he did even better.

obviously it is a tiny sample size but batting riyad at 4 and mushy at 6 could very well be worth the trial....

Tiger444
March 29, 2012, 10:53 PM
you're probably right but it's a bit of a scary thought to me since the team is doing so well with the current order of things. but yes mushy is a better finisher and riyad is more of an innings builder.

riyad has batted once (for some reason i thought he had done it more often) at #4 against australia and scored 68* and he's batted once at #5 against zimbabwe scoring 7. he also batted once at #3 scoring 35 against pakistan.

i thought riyad had batted up the order more often...why do people say he's failed up the order....3 innings batting top 5 and that's a 55 average and if you just take the twice he batted top 4 (the innings where he batted at #5 isn't as relevant since we are talking about him batting at #4) then he did even better.

obviously it is a tiny sample size but batting riyad at 4 and mushy at 6 could very well be worth the trial....

Yup I definitely think its worth a shot. The #4 spot has been a question mark for a while now so its time we try something different. Since Mahmudullah has done well there once already, might as well try again.
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playmaker
March 29, 2012, 11:26 PM
kinda dissappointed with mushy, its best that he comes at no. 4 but thats not the way we shud look at it. He shud come at a time between 25-40 overs because thats when he looks good

and as for lullah, well, he needs to hit some sixes and search for the boundary

Gowza
March 29, 2012, 11:44 PM
Yup I definitely think its worth a shot. The #4 spot has been a question mark for a while now so its time we try something different. Since Mahmudullah has done well there once already, might as well try again.
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yeah try it out i guess. i reckon mominul will be a great future #4 for BD. but if we try it riyad really needs to make it his own position if he doesn't then we'll prob have to go back to mushy at #4 or nasir otherwise bring in a youngster like mominul.

and if we don't try it then riyad needs to improve his finishing game real quickly.

Tiger444
March 30, 2012, 12:58 AM
yeah try it out i guess. i reckon mominul will be a great future #4 for BD. but if we try it riyad really needs to make it his own position if he doesn't then we'll prob have to go back to mushy at #4 or nasir otherwise bring in a youngster like mominul.

and if we don't try it then riyad needs to improve his finishing game real quickly.

I agree. If Riyad doesn't do well at #4 then he should go. Having him at #7 seems to be a waste because he's proven he's not a PP slogger. He's been only good when wickets are all down and he needs to finish out the game with not many runs left and a lot of balls left. Again that's more of a job for a #4. If it doesn't work out then we should definitely bring in either Mominul or Shuvagata. Let's hope team management does try it and hope that Riyad does well there.
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Gowza
March 30, 2012, 01:09 AM
I agree. If Riyad doesn't do well at #4 then he should go. Having him at #7 seems to be a waste because he's proven he's not a PP slogger. He's been only good when wickets are all down and he needs to finish out the game with not many runs left and a lot of balls left. Again that's more of a job for a #4. If it doesn't work out then we should definitely bring in either Mominul or Shuvagata. Let's hope team management does try it and hope that Riyad does well there.
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oh yeah, shuvagata, why did i forget him? i'm a fan of mominul but he's still inexperienced. shuvagata is more experienced, more mature and has a lot of talent himself.

M.H.Rubel
March 30, 2012, 01:18 AM
I agree. If Riyad doesn't do well at #4 then he should go. Having him at #7 seems to be a waste because he's proven he's not a PP slogger. He's been only good when wickets are all down and he needs to finish out the game with not many runs left and a lot of balls left. Again that's more of a job for a #4. If it doesn't work out then we should definitely bring in either Mominul or Shuvagata. Let's hope team management does try it and hope that Riyad does well there.
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This is a very valid point.Currently riyad is batting at #6-7 this is a spot for finisher.Riyad has good average in batting but he is a poor finisher.
To me we lost the asia cup due to riyad.24 runs needed in 18 balls with one batsman in one ens.A team should not lose the match.Riyad totally failed to finish the game.Even he was not able to hit a boundary in last 3 overs.
Definately he is a good test batsman.Siddons find something in him as finisher ant tried him there.Several times Riyad was offered to play up but he have refused.It is totaly a negative mindset.
He is not a finisher so as a senior member of the team either he should bat up,otherwise hard time is waiting for him.

22Yards
March 30, 2012, 10:24 PM
Forget 4 or 6, what Riyad needs to do is man up and take responsibility. It high time and even more as after being appointed as the Vice captain. He still does his tuk tuk and "35 not outs" which is not helpful for the team (but boosts up his averages very well).
What i see he is a very useful cricketer. His off spins are underrated and he is more a capable bat than what he has shown. He is a perfect example of talent being wasted.
As the posted above me points out, for some reason he doesn't like batting up the order (I take it as "doesnt like to take responsibility") but then again he is not a good finisher so I say exchange him for milon or zia in near future if he still continues to be sissy.

Gowza
March 30, 2012, 11:57 PM
Forget 4 or 6, what Riyad needs to do is man up and take responsibility. It high time and even more as after being appointed as the Vice captain. He still does his tuk tuk and "35 not outs" which is not helpful for the team (but boosts up his averages very well).
What i see he is a very useful cricketer. His off spins are underrated and he is more a capable bat than what he has shown. He is a perfect example of talent being wasted.
As the posted above me points out, for some reason he doesn't like batting up the order (I take it as "doesnt like to take responsibility") but then again he is not a good finisher so I say exchange him for milon or zia in near future if he still continues to be sissy.

or sabbir rahman or sohag gazi or even shuvagata since he does bowl a bit in domestics. someone who can hit the ball against a quality attack and can chip in with a couple of overs if need be. what happened to naeem? he was that player at the beginning of his international career then his batting went the way of riyad's.

zinatf
March 31, 2012, 03:22 AM
We don't need to go to all these efforts in doing quantitative analysis if the players themselves take responsibility and start rotating the strike.

Tiger444
March 31, 2012, 03:48 PM
Yup its not like riyad is the only middle order batsman around. There is also mominul, shuvagata, shabbir, milon, and ziaur who are waiting for their chances to prove themselves. So riyad has some pressure on him and needs to continue to play well to block out the other players.
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