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Gowza
May 8, 2012, 10:43 PM
let's start by listing the best form each country and discuss from there.

West Indies: hall, roberts, holding, croft, garner, marshall, walsh, ambrose, bishop. notable mentions are griffith, clarke, gilchrist, daniel, stephenson, patterson.

Australia: lillee, lindwall, davidson, mcgrath, miller, thomson

Sri Lanka: malinga, vaas

South Africa: peter pollock, shaun pollock, donald, steyn. notable mentions philander, Vince van der Bijl (one of the best to never play test cricket).

New Zealand: Hadlee. notable mention bond.

India: dev, nissar

Bangladesh: mortaza

Zimbabwe: streak

England: larwood, trueman, statham, tyson, snow, willis. might leave barnes out since it's disputed whether he was a pacer or a spinner.

Pakistan: waqar, imran, wasim, akhtar, asif, fazal mahmood. notables zahid

if i've missed anyone don't hesitate to bring up names.

Roey Haque
May 8, 2012, 10:49 PM
I'll just stay with Bd here. Okay?

Monjurul Islam could really swing the ball. His action was mad cool as well. I always imagined our team with him and mashrafe spearheading our bowling attack.

Gowza
May 8, 2012, 10:49 PM
just to be clear we are talking test cricket here.

now with no disrespect i believe we can cut streak, dev, nissar, mortaza, akhtar, asif, vaas and malinga. if anyone has arguments as to cutting these guys then please bring it up and tell us why they should be in the running.

normally i would cut thomson but the fact that he was so fast and partnered with lillee he was part of one of the best pace duo's ever he gets a look in, i mean if you want someone for pure pace he'd be your man i wouldn't personally pick him as a great but i can see an argument for him.

Night_wolf
May 8, 2012, 11:16 PM
if we are discussing about The greatest fast bowler of all time i think we can drop bowlers from BD,Zim and SL out of this discussion totally. Ind could have also been dropped but kapil saved them

Zunaid
May 8, 2012, 11:30 PM
You can't really do this, but I can name my top 10:

McGrath
Marshall
Holding
Walsh
Akram
Younis
Hadlee
Donald
Garner
Imran

Never saw Trueman but he migh have displaced one of the above.

Ajfar
May 9, 2012, 12:03 AM
if we are discussing about The greatest fast bowler of all time i think we can drop bowlers from BD,Zim and SL out of this discussion totally. Ind could have also been dropped but kapil saved them

Thats true, but you can't overlook Vaas completely. Sure comparing him to some of the other greats might not be the best comparison, but he carried the srilankan pace attack pretty much all by himself for the most of his career and did a pretty good job at it too. That has to count for something.

Gowza
May 9, 2012, 01:39 AM
You can't really do this, but I can name my top 10:

McGrath
Marshall
Holding
Walsh
Akram
Younis
Hadlee
Donald
Garner
Imran

Never saw Trueman but he migh have displaced one of the above.

it is really tough to do even a top 10, i mean there are 7 0r 8 WI fast bowlers alone who contend for a top 10 place. then pakistan have waqar, wasim and imran who could easily be in a top 10.

i'm glad you named donald, i think he's a bit under-rated, i know he's thought highly of but he definitely pushes his name for a top 10 place and i think most dismiss him and don't put him quite with that crowd.

surprisingly i think trueman is the best of the englishmen. tyson was fast and had a great record, larwood was fast, snow was a great bowler but really it's quite tough to find a place for an englishman in the top 10 imo.

i'd narrow it down to these guys (in no order):

1 roberts
2 holding
3 garner
4 marshall
5 walsh
6 ambrose
7 croft (reckon he's underrated because his career wasn't the longest but average of 23, strike rate of 49, 4.6 wickets a match is real quality).
9 lillee
10 mcgrath
11 donald
12 hadlee
13 waqar
14 imran
15 steyn

really tough to cut names but maybe i'd take steyn off because he's still playing and not finished yet, croft because no one else rates him as an all timer, that would drop it to 13 but from their it's really tough.

Gowza
May 9, 2012, 01:43 AM
Thats true, but you can't overlook Vaas completely. Sure comparing him to some of the other greats might not be the best comparison, but he carried the srilankan pace attack pretty much all by himself for the most of his career and did a pretty good job at it too. That has to count for something.

vaas was a very good bowler but a top 10 all time? pretty tough to rate him in the top 10 imo.

Dilscoop
May 9, 2012, 02:10 AM
I'm a n00b on this subject. But from what I've seen in my lifetime:

Waqar-McGrath opening followed by Wasim. They can and will kill in all 3 formats. But for thrill and crowd riser I'd get Brett Lee, Shoaib Akhtar and Lasith Malinga/Dale Styen

Gowza
May 9, 2012, 02:30 AM
I'm a n00b on this subject. But from what I've seen in my lifetime:

Waqar-McGrath opening followed by Wasim. They can and will kill in all 3 formats. But for thrill and crowd riser I'd get Brett Lee, Shoaib Akhtar and Lasith Malinga/Dale Styen

i always enjoy watching malinga bowl. for me waqar in his pomp is the most exciting fast bowler to watch. mcgrath is a very good bowler, one of the greatest no doubt but the thing about mcgrath is i didn't really find him that interesting to watch, he wasn't especially fasst, he didn't seam or swing the ball too much he just niggled at the off stump at a good length, decent pace, awkward bounce height and that was his thing and it worked tremendously. but for me there are soo many more more exciting fast bowlers to watch. for me the WI pacers, the pakistani's (waqar and imran) and donald are probably the most exciting to watch.

as far as a bowling unit waqar, Mcgrath and wasim would be killer.

i wouldn't mind an attack of waqar, donald and lillee or maybe marshall or even imran instead of lillee. i can imagine the pace of waqar with his movement reverse and late swing and the pace of donald with his line and length, bounce and aggression wouldn't be a scary duo to face. then add lillee or marshall two of the most complete fast bowlers ever.

BengaliPagol
May 9, 2012, 04:34 AM
Maybe Philander might be with the best at the rate he is going.

Gowza
May 9, 2012, 04:38 AM
Maybe Philander might be with the best at the rate he is going.

this is true, something i've contemplated but he hasn't played enough and he's so early on in his career we don't really know how he will turn out. steyn we have an indication because he's played for a lengthy time already. but i am a philander supporter.

BengaliPagol
May 9, 2012, 04:47 AM
McGrath showed that you dont have to be an express bowler to be the best. Line and length is more important.

Night_wolf
May 9, 2012, 05:08 AM
Thats true, but you can't overlook Vaas completely. Sure comparing him to some of the other greats might not be the best comparison, but he carried the srilankan pace attack pretty much all by himself for the most of his career and did a pretty good job at it too. That has to count for something.

vass was great, Tbh he was one of the best ODI bowlers of all time and he wasn't a noob in test cricket either. But if you want to pick the greatest fast bowler test cricket is the place too look IMHO. and though vass was good but he wasn't great in test cricket..thats why i dropped him out of discussion, thats why malinga isn't there too

Gowza
May 9, 2012, 05:12 AM
i agree mcgrath showed you don't need express pace to be the best, but if you're making a top 10 i think it comes into consideration, i mean the more weapons the better imo as long as they are effective. i think when you're looking at narrowing down the greats you take stats first the most telling being average, strike-rate and wickets per match ratio, also where they took wickets (lillee's downfall is he didn't do amazingly in certain places, same with ambrose), then after you've narrowed them down with stats you start looking at their weapons.

also hadlee had to carry the NZ pace attack and he truly is an all time great, he didn't have the best spinner ever with him either as vaas did (murali).

Gowza
May 9, 2012, 05:33 AM
vass was great, Tbh he was one of the best ODI bowlers of all time and he wasn't a noob in test cricket either. But if you want to pick the greatest fast bowler test cricket is the place too look IMHO. and though vass was good but he wasn't great in test cricket..thats why i dropped him out of discussion, thats why malinga isn't there too

and also longevity plays a role to that's why players like bond isn't being considered because he didn't really play to much and philander isn't really in the discussion as he hasn't been playing test cricket/international cricket long enough to know whether he can keep it up.

Naimul_Hd
May 10, 2012, 04:55 AM
My Top 15 (not any particular order):

Dennis Lillee
Wasim
Jeff Thomson
Marshall
Holding
Kapil Dev
Walsh
McGrath
Waqar
Hadlee
Donald
J. Garner
Imran Khan
Curtly Ambrose
Dale Steyn

Gowza
May 10, 2012, 09:36 AM
My Top 15 (not any particular order):

Dennis Lillee
Wasim
Jeff Thomson
Marshall
Holding
Kapil Dev
Walsh
McGrath
Waqar
Hadlee
Donald
J. Garner
Imran Khan
Curtly Ambrose
Dale Steyn

tomson and dev in your top 15? what's your reasoning for them being in the top 15 over others?

Naimul_Hd
May 10, 2012, 06:38 PM
tomson and dev in your top 15? what's your reasoning for them being in the top 15 over others?

You are questioning 'Jeff Thomson' ???? He is one of the fastest bowlers ever produced and played in Test Cricket. Dennis Lillee and Thomson was one of the deadliest pair of all time along with Wasim and Akram. He's not in Top 15, rather in Top 10, i may say.

and for Kapil, my reasoning is the same as Ajfar mentioned for Vaas:

Sure comparing him to some of the other greats might not be the best comparison, but he carried the srilankan pace attack pretty much all by himself for the most of his career and did a pretty good job at it too. That has to count for something.

Gowza
May 10, 2012, 10:35 PM
You are questioning 'Jeff Thomson' ???? He is one of the fastest bowlers ever produced and played in Test Cricket. Dennis Lillee and Thomson was one of the deadliest pair of all time along with Wasim and Akram. He's not in Top 15, rather in Top 10, i may say.

and for Kapil, my reasoning is the same as Ajfar mentioned for Vaas:

i know tomson was part of one of the dealiest pairs, i mentioned it myself erly in the thread but we aren't picking players as a duo or a unit we're picking them as individuals and i'm not sure thomo warrants to be ranked that high as an individual, sure he was fast and scary but there are a lot of other fast bowlers with better averages, better strike rates, more wickets per match and were still fast and intimidating for batsmen.

as far as the dev thing, well dev and vaas were both really good bowlers but not in that top echelon, hadlee was in similar circumstances and he excelled and is one of the best of all time but he did a lot better than vaas and dev.

Gowza
May 12, 2012, 03:29 AM
frank tyson was considered possibly the fastest ever, richie benaud said he's the fastest he's ever seen, and has great stats way better than thomo's so why not pick tyson instead? the fastest aren't always the best. when you're rating all timers you have to take both stats and their physical ability's on board. i mean if someone was picking an all time XI they probably wouldn't pick a bowler averaging 28 and a strike rate of 52 even if he's the quickest because there are other fast bowlers who have averages in the low 20s with strike rates in the 40s.

mar umpire
May 20, 2012, 06:34 AM
I'll just stay with Bd here. Okay?

Monjurul Islam could really swing the ball. His action was mad cool as well. I always imagined our team with him and mashrafe spearheading our bowling attack.

My dad was his coach in his teens and junior years-good guy, knew him well (if he's the same one we're thinking of)

Gowza
May 22, 2012, 02:53 AM
it is really tough to do even a top 10, i mean there are 7 0r 8 WI fast bowlers alone who contend for a top 10 place. then pakistan have waqar, wasim and imran who could easily be in a top 10.

i'm glad you named donald, i think he's a bit under-rated, i know he's thought highly of but he definitely pushes his name for a top 10 place and i think most dismiss him and don't put him quite with that crowd.

surprisingly i think trueman is the best of the englishmen. tyson was fast and had a great record, larwood was fast, snow was a great bowler but really it's quite tough to find a place for an englishman in the top 10 imo.

i'd narrow it down to these guys (in no order):

1 roberts
2 holding
3 garner
4 marshall
5 walsh
6 ambrose
7 croft (reckon he's underrated because his career wasn't the longest but average of 23, strike rate of 49, 4.6 wickets a match is real quality).
9 lillee
10 mcgrath
11 donald
12 hadlee
13 waqar
14 imran
15 steyn

really tough to cut names but maybe i'd take steyn off because he's still playing and not finished yet, croft because no one else rates him as an all timer, that would drop it to 13 but from their it's really tough.

Thinking about it more I guess I would cut Roberts, steyn, and croft to drop it to a top 12, McGrath, lillee and hadlee fight for the #10 spot

Gowza
May 23, 2012, 01:52 AM
Hadlee was a great but I think his rating went up because he could bat. Who to pick out of McGrath and lillee? McGrath had impeccable line and length but lillee was one of the most complete fast bowlers ever, maybe only 2nd to Marshall

World Champs
May 29, 2012, 01:12 AM
The greatest fast bowlers that i have seen are

Mcgrath
Dale Steyn
Akram
Waqar
Donald
Lee
Shoaib
Shane bond
Ambrose

but the greatest of all of them is vinay Kumar.:D

Night_wolf
May 29, 2012, 07:56 AM
but the greatest of all of them is vinay Kumar.:D

lol you forgot Sir Sreesanth:notworthy:

TigerEz
May 29, 2012, 05:41 PM
DALE STEYN....end of story

from Bangla: Mashrafe and Rubel

Gowza
May 29, 2012, 06:40 PM
DALE STEYN....end of story

from Bangla: Mashrafe and Rubel

No doubt the best at current and one of the best strike rates ever for wickets taken and matches played but some of the former greats were just as good or better imo

Jadukor
May 30, 2012, 01:03 AM
I would say out of the bowlers i have seen since the 90s it would have to be Wasim Akram.
From the older generations I guess it would be Malcom Marshall based on the video footages I have seen of him as well his stats.

This is my criteria
Pace: Wasim had plenty of pace even during the later years with a shortened run-up
Swing: He was the absolute master of swinging the ball both ways in any condition
Accuracy: I have rarely seen him get hit for sixes, he generally maintained a superb line and length always attacking the stumps always looking for lbws
Variety: He knew how to bowl every delivery... the special one was the reverse swinging yorkers he would bowl at the death overs in ODIs and also in Test cricket to the tail enders.
Fitness: He is one guy that rarely got injured even though he played in both ODI and Tests

Zeeshan
May 30, 2012, 01:43 AM
Malinga

Sohel
May 30, 2012, 02:54 AM
My XI from the ones I've seen:

1. Holding
2. Lillee
3. Ambrose
4. Garner
5. Croft
6. Bishop
7. Wasim
8. Waqar
9. Steyn
10. Donald
11. Malinga

Nasty, vicious deliveries always threatening to take a wicket.

Jadukor
May 30, 2012, 02:59 AM
Malinga

Malinga looks the best of the current lot in T-20 format but is he really test quality?
He picks wickets with his yorkers and short balls in a format where batters have to take risks.
If you look at his test stats it is nothing great... averaging 33 per wicket
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/player/49758.html

Gowza
May 30, 2012, 04:21 AM
My XI from the ones I've seen:

1. Holding
2. Lillee
3. Ambrose
4. Garner
5. Croft
6. Bishop
7. Wasim
8. Waqar
9. Steyn
10. Donald
11. Malinga

Nasty, vicious deliveries always threatening to take a wicket.

yes some of those bowlers did hurl down vicious deliveries, there's some footage on youtube of alan donald bowling to the waugh brothers and that was vicious! croft was certainly vicious and ferocious to, waqar with his yorkers, late swing and pace, garner was one of the best yorker bowlers of all time as well, wasim was awesome with the old ball, steyn is a pretty complete bowler as is lillee, ambrose was just awesome as was holding, malinga is terrific but struggles with the fitness and holding is one of the best ever, bishop unfortunately had the injuries but was great nonetheless.

courtney walsh was really good to.

Sohel
May 30, 2012, 04:30 AM
Hadlee (after he compromised initial pace, became more accurate, and finally a champion bowler in the process), Walsh, McGrath, Vaas and now Gul are five of my favorite bowlers, but that has more to do with their artfully intelligent scripting than raw-n-steady nastiness. Facing any one of the ones in that XI must be/have been like facing a firing squad with a wooden spoon. That being said, the five guys in this post also bowled more than their fair share of nasty deliveries :)

I'd love to see Malinga play tests again.

Gowza
May 30, 2012, 04:42 AM
Hadlee (after he compromised initial pace, became more accurate, and finally a champion bowler in the process), Walsh, McGrath, Vaas and now Gul are five of my favorite bowlers, but that has more to do with their artfully intelligent scripting than raw-n-steady nastiness. Facing any one of the ones in that XI must be/have been like facing a firing squad with a wooden spoon. That being said, the five guys in this post also bowled more than their fair share of nasty deliveries :)

I'd love to see Malinga play tests again.

yeah walsh is one who could bowl some really nasty delivieries, moreso than the others i'd say but they're all quality bowlers.

Zeeshan
May 30, 2012, 12:34 PM
Malinga looks the best of the current lot in T-20 format but is he really test quality?
He picks wickets with his yorkers and short balls in a format where batters have to take risks.
If you look at his test stats it is nothing great... averaging 33 per wicket
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/player/49758.html

Yeah I forgot that we are dealing with Tests....

Navo
May 30, 2012, 04:09 PM
I always felt Mohammad Amir could have been a great bowler. He had so much potential, but greed came in the way..

Gowza
May 30, 2012, 07:00 PM
I always felt Mohammad Amir could have been a great bowler. He had so much potential, but greed came in the way..

he had great oace for someone so young and had pretty decent line and length, he certainly had the potential, as much as anyone around. we may actually see him back to it sooner than we expect.

TimAus
May 31, 2012, 02:28 AM
Marshall
Lillee
Ambrose
McGrath
Akram
Garner
Hadlee
Imran
Truman
Donald

For your original list I'd add these names:
Australia: McDermott, Gillespie
England: Botham, Barnes (he wasn't a spinner)
South Africa: Ntini

Mortaza, Malinga, Nissar, Asif, Akhtar and Streak just seem to be there to make up the numbers for their countries. A great should be considered great no matter what team he played for. If they're on this list you have to assume they would have been a great even if they played for West Indies in the 80s, or at least been next in line after Marshall, Croft, Garner and Holding.

Gowza
May 31, 2012, 03:24 AM
Marshall
Lillee
Ambrose
McGrath
Akram
Garner
Hadlee
Imran
Truman
Donald

For your original list I'd add these names:
Australia: McDermott, Gillespie
England: Botham, Barnes (he wasn't a spinner)
South Africa: Ntini

Mortaza, Malinga, Nissar, Asif, Akhtar and Streak just seem to be there to make up the numbers for their countries. A great should be considered great no matter what team he played for. If they're on this list you have to assume they would have been a great even if they played for West Indies in the 80s, or at least been next in line after Marshall, Croft, Garner and Holding.

my method was to pick the best from each country and wittle it down from their that's why malinga, mortaza, nissar etc were in the original post. as far as barnes is concerned there are definitely people who argue that he was a spinner, even his cricinfo profile says he could bowl the off-spinner and leg break, he had a lot more variety and people have said he didn't just cut the ball he actually spun it, just did it at a quicker pace than anyone else. i'm not saying he definitely isn't a pacer but there is definitely enough information to suggest he could be labelled a spinner. but basically he could bowl anything.

for the other names you brought up, i wouldn't consider mcdermott an all time great, one of australia's best though. gillespie in his prime was awesome an again one of australia's best but not an all timer. botham was a great allrounder a a really good pacer but again like with mcdermott and gillespie not up there with the all times for the world. now ntini, he was very good for south africa but again not an all timer. they could have been mentioned in my first post but my criteria for that was the question, could they have been rated as the all time best for their country? i actually did think about putting ntini, mcdermott and gillespie, with barnes it was as i said i left him how due to that dispute but obviously to a person that considered him a pacer he is one of the best ever if not the best ever.

Gowza
July 23, 2012, 07:23 PM
walsh i feel is terribly underrated, just shy of 4 wickets a test match, might not of had quite the pace of some of the other west indian greats but garner didn't either and people still rate him, mcgrath also didn't have that blistering pace but is considered great. at one stage walsh was bowling very quickly but his movement off the seam and his accurate and consistent line and length are what made him great. i often here people say walsh is very good but not a great, first to 500 wickets, just shy of 4 wickets a test, average of 24 puts him as a great for me, not a top 10er but still a great.

al Furqaan
July 23, 2012, 09:48 PM
I think Steyn should be higher up than he is. He has a strike in the early 40s...in today's era of flat tracks and with all the crazy good batsman around the world. And he doesn't stop taking wickets. I'd rate him higher than a lot of other greats who played in more bowling-friendly wickets against batsman who didn't have helmets and when an average of 45 meant you were godly. Same reason I rank Waqar higher than Wasim (though I've never watched either of them). Even Shoaib had an insane strike rate and it was still far higher than Steyn's. Only man who could match Steyn's penchant for wicket taking was Shane Bond.

This is purely a statistical thing, but I think at the end of the day that should count most heavily.

Gowza
July 23, 2012, 09:57 PM
yes steyn has an astonishing strike rate, for so many matches and he's closing in on 300 tests wickets, but he is still in the middle of his career, great atm, wonder what it will be by the end of his career. i remember when it was still under 40, it's not far off but it's slowly going upwards and if he is like most fast bowlers they drop pace in the last few years which for a lot of them makes them a little bit less dangerous (though still great bowlers).

i also rate waqar better than wasim, waqar also has an incredible strike rate and his in swingers were incredible, he also had blistering pace. i watched both waqar and wasim and definitely put waqar ahead of wasim. i haven't personally done much research on wasim, but from what i've heard people have said he was effective later in an innings with the ball reversing but not nearly as effective early on in an innings. my opinion on wasim has been mainly from basic stats and what i have seen.

waqar imo, is the most destructive fast bowler of all time. i wouldn't call any other fast bowler "destructive". a few of them can dismantle an opposition, scare them and take bags of wickets, but i wouldn't necessarily describe them as destructive, yet when i think of waqar that's the first word that pops into my head.

Jadukor
July 23, 2012, 10:03 PM
^^haven't seen Waqar or Wasim? wow how young are you?

As a Test bowler Steyn will definitely be there with the greats once he finishes. He might not be the greatest pace bowler for South Africa since there is Donald as a competitor but personally having seen both Donald and Steyn I would rate them both as equally good.

The only criticism I have of Steyn is his lack of impact in the ODIs. The greats in the above list never got whacked around in any format but Steyn seems to really get hammered when he is not in rhythm.

Gowza
July 24, 2012, 12:00 AM
^^haven't seen Waqar or Wasim? wow how young are you?

As a Test bowler Steyn will definitely be there with the greats once he finishes. He might not be the greatest pace bowler for South Africa since there is Donald as a competitor but personally having seen both Donald and Steyn I would rate them both as equally good.

The only criticism I have of Steyn is his lack of impact in the ODIs. The greats in the above list never got whacked around in any format but Steyn seems to really get hammered when he is not in rhythm.

donald and steyn are different bowlers so tough to pick a winner there, but i always liked donalds aggression and nastiness, ok it's not nice for a batsman but that's what made cricket exciting in the 70s and 80s, the WI quicks were terrorising batsmen, it's something that doesn't happen these days. i'll tell you if the england bowlers the other day chucked in some nasty deliveries when they weren't able to get the wickets then they would have actually got some. i guess it's more sporting.....nicer....but it does take away from the battle between batsman and bowler imo.

steyn if he's to continue on as he is no question will be a great, but really he's only done half his career, he's got 5 years left in him if not more unless he decides to hang up his whites early.

Shehwar
July 24, 2012, 12:58 AM
From what I have seen in my lifetime it has to be Wasim and Waqar. They were easily the most fearsome duo in both format. Used to routinely bowl out opposition together. Wasim was a magician with the bowl and is probably the greatest left arm fast bowler of all time while an on song Waqar Younis was a sight to behold! So many times they will win matches where the opposition needed something ridiculously easy like 35-40 runs from 60 balls in ODIs with 6-7 wickets left! It was surreal!

Jadukor
July 24, 2012, 01:32 AM
From what I have seen in my lifetime it has to be Wasim and Waqar. They were easily the most fearsome duo in both format. Used to routinely bowl out opposition together. Wasim was a magician with the bowl and is probably the greatest left arm fast bowler of all time while an on song Waqar Younis was a sight to behold! So many times they will win matches where the opposition needed something ridiculously easy like 35-40 runs from 60 balls in ODIs with 6-7 wickets left! It was surreal!

Agreed. The sight of Wasim terrorizing left handers and Waqar's unplayable yorkers was pace bowling at it's best. With those two around Pakistan knew that could win from virtually any position.

Gowza
July 24, 2012, 08:18 AM
yep when it comes to best opening pairs waqar and wasim are in with a shout. also have lillee and thomson and mcgrath and gillespie were a decent pair, otherwise pollock and donald and then the great WI pacemen, any of them paired together were great.

Sohel
July 24, 2012, 12:46 PM
I think Shahadat and Abul will give everyone a run for their money, past, present and future.

Kohli_Sox
July 24, 2012, 12:47 PM
If I had to list it down:

1) Richard Hadlee (Tremendous line and length; one of the best outswingers in the game, his record in both away and home stands out)

2) Malcolm Marshall (What a champion bowler)

3) Dennis Lillee (Revolutionized fast bowling big time; started with raw pace early in his career then due to injury had to cut down some pace but still took regular wickets with great strike rate)

4) Ray Lindwall (Member of Bradman's "The Invincibles" team; had ability to bowl with serious pace with late outswingers, his action is rated as one of the best- Poetry In Motion)

5) Tie between Curtly Ambrose and Glenn Mcgrath

RazabQ
July 24, 2012, 05:06 PM
1) Malcolm Marshal, first and foremost. I rate him higher than the other Windies great because he could seam _and_ swing and was as nasty and quick as any of them
2) Wasim Akram. Read interviews of every top batsman from late 80s to early Noughties ...when asked who the hated to face the most, the most likely response was Akram. Rated by even the old fogies (Benauds, Boycotts) as the best left arm fast bowler of all time.
3) Holding. Whispering death would just make you stupid. Ask Mr. Boycott
4) McGrath. No, pace, no extravagant movement? So what. If bowling is brain surgery then he was the master.
5) Larwood. Caused more cricket rules to be changed than any other bowler with his combination of pace, hostility and accuracy. Made Bradman mortal for a brief while.

layperson
July 25, 2012, 12:12 AM
I started watching cricket in the 90's and based on the bowlers I have seen, it has to be Wasim Akram. Most versatile fast bowler that I have seen. He has so much in his repertoire that he is one of the only bowlers who could bowl 6 different deliveries in an over. He was a sight. The sultan of swing and had deadly pace too. No comparison as far as I am concerned.

Kohli_Sox
July 25, 2012, 11:53 AM
1) Malcolm Marshal, first and foremost. I rate him higher than the other Windies great because he could seam _and_ swing and was as nasty and quick as any of them
2) Wasim Akram. Read interviews of every top batsman from late 80s to early Noughties ...when asked who the hated to face the most, the most likely response was Akram. Rated by even the old fogies (Benauds, Boycotts) as the best left arm fast bowler of all time.
3) Holding. Whispering death would just make you stupid. Ask Mr. Boycott
4) McGrath. No, pace, no extravagant movement? So what. If bowling is brain surgery then he was the master.
5) Larwood. Caused more cricket rules to be changed than any other bowler with his combination of pace, hostility and accuracy. Made Bradman mortal for a brief while.

Great to see Larwood being mentioned. "Bodyline" tactics had some impact on overall world cricket

Gowza
July 25, 2012, 10:22 PM
yeah good to see larwoods name, though for mine even though he was fast and furious there are still a number of other pacers ahead of him, not quite top 10 imo but a great no doubt and yes his tactics in bodyline did influence future pace bowling, that should make him a great in itself.

Ajfar
July 26, 2012, 04:03 PM
I came across a really interesting article yesterday on Cricbuzz.com. They put together the some really interesting stat, and based on them Steyn is already best of the best.

Here is my favorite part of the article
He may have the most un-fancy of physiques for a fast bowler, is one of the shorter ones in height but certainly not in stature! Having been born in an era when it is increasingly becoming rare to find good quality fast bowlers, where their numbers are dwindling faster than of the tigers in India, where the game is almost totally skewed in favour of batsmen with short boundaries, restrictions on bouncers, fancy helmets and protective guards, broader and meatier tailor-made bats, unhelpful and dead wickets, fast outfields, where the influx of 20-20 and IPL have tempted the young generation to emulate a Pollard rather than a Roach, it is an absolute privilege to see a fast bowler of Steyn's quality rip through famed batting attacks all over the world.


read the rest here: http://www.cricbuzz.com/cricket-news/51984/a-dale-amongst-goliaths

Gowza
July 26, 2012, 07:17 PM
read it yesterday, yes he's got impressive stats, 5 wickets a test match on average, strike rate of 41, 279 wickets. but we can't forget he still has 5+ years of his career left, if he was to retire today he'd be right up their but we can't say whether he'll maintain things, get worse, or get better.

al Furqaan
July 31, 2012, 07:29 PM
read it yesterday, yes he's got impressive stats, 5 wickets a test match on average, strike rate of 41, 279 wickets. but we can't forget he still has 5+ years of his career left, if he was to retire today he'd be right up their but we can't say whether he'll maintain things, get worse, or get better.

He hasn't gotten worse throughout the 6-7 years of his career thus far, or however long he's been playing. No reason to believe he will. Not unless he plays till age 45. But I think with his level of fitness, he can bowl at 35 just as effectively as he can at age 25. And he's bowled majority of his career against top class batsman (Tendulkar, Dravid, Laxman, Sehwag, Ponting, Hussey, Hayden, Cook, Strauss, KP, Jayawardene, Sangakara) + the general flatness of pitches these days + all the protective equipment batsman have.

Gowza
August 1, 2012, 04:29 AM
True but most fast bowlers fall away a bit in their later years they often have to reinvent their game, I'm just saying we can't say for sure he will continue as he has done.

bujhee kom
August 4, 2012, 01:21 AM
1. http://www.spiritofsport.co.uk/media/gbu0/prodlg/1273.jpgJoel Garner
2. http://img.skysports.com/09/06/640/Bob-Willis-Fifth-Test-Four-Wicket-Defeat-The-_2321183.jpgBob Wilis
3. http://www.espncricinfo.com/db/PICTURES/CMS/52500/52503.jpgMichael Holding
4. http://www.btvision.bt.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/411.jpgRichard Hadlee

NoName
August 4, 2012, 02:03 PM
Ashok Dinda.

al Furqaan
August 4, 2012, 08:01 PM
True but most fast bowlers fall away a bit in their later years they often have to reinvent their game, I'm just saying we can't say for sure he will continue as he has done.

I feel like he could be like Brett Lee...bowls at 35 the way most tearaways bowl at 22.

Tigers_eye
August 4, 2012, 10:19 PM
...

1 roberts
2 holding
3 garner
4 marshall
5 walsh
6 ambrose
7 croft (reckon he's underrated because his career wasn't the longest but average of 23, strike rate of 49, 4.6 wickets a match is real quality).
9 lillee
10 mcgrath
11 donald
12 hadlee
13 waqar
14 imran
15 steyn
....
No Wasim Akram? With the exception of Marshal I don't think anyone can hang with Wasim.

Gowza
August 5, 2012, 09:12 AM
Wasim bowled magic balls no doubt and had a lot of variety but he was a much better old ball bowler, one of if not the best left armers so he's definitely up there but for me it's tough to put him in the top 10 and there are just so many great fast bowlers, wasim isn't the only one missing.

Gowza
August 15, 2012, 06:52 AM
No Wasim Akram? With the exception of Marshal I don't think anyone can hang with Wasim.

i could swap croft for wasim, even though i think croft is underrated. it's tough though, i mean trueman is missing, lindwall, just so many great fast bowlers.

Gowza
August 15, 2012, 06:57 AM
interesting discussion going on at cricketweb right now:
http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/cricket-chat/57649-alan-donald-vs-joel-garner.html

donald V garner.

both great bowlers, different types of bowlers garner with line, length, accuracy and bounce. donald with pace, accuracy, bounce and ferocity.

ammark
August 28, 2012, 12:25 PM
I completely missed this thread.... But I've been reliving the 'Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse' stories lately.

Check this video (http://youtu.be/bPDW7hj1yfs) out from 1979. Presented by Richie Benaud - the World's Fastest Bowlers!

Given my somewhat selective cricket viewing that only covers games on video from the 70s onwards till the early 2000s, I'd leave Fred Trueman, Wes Hall and Larwood out of my list. Yes, I've watched the bodyline videos and read about it at length, but I'd rather be neutral and not sully their names or throw them in a competition with the next generation that spawned.

Another thing, most great bowlers were heavily complemented by another great bowler from the other end. Its a pity that Vaas did not have that sort of support till much later.

All time great pairs as such can be:

- Dennis Lillee and Jeff Thomson - they were the pioneers of pace and aggressive bowling that set the Windies up for world domination after 1975. They ensured the birth of go-for-the-kill professionalism attitude in world cricket.

- Allan Donald and Shaun Pollock - Allan Donald was deadly, aggressive and would send your stumps cartwheeling away. I wouldnt call him White Lightning for nothing.

- Michael Holding+ Andy Roberts+Colin Croft+Joel Garner - of these I would rate Andy Roberts as being as good as Holding. Simply because he was the mentor to the younger Michael Holding and shaped the Whispering Death in form and shape. No doubt Holding can claim spot no.1 on his own merits, but to leave out Roberts as a close number 2 would be injustice given the context of their times.

- Malcolm Marshall - for sure he took on after Croft and Roberts had gone. But he was undoubtedly the best after Holding got older in the 80s.

- Ambrose and Walsh - Both of them were intense. Walsh may have been slower than Ambrose, but they inherited the legacy of the Four Horsemen, they had Marshall with them and they went at it continuing to knocking the blocks off the batsmen.
- Waqar & Wasim - 'nuff said ; toe crushers, swing, pace, mixing of deliveries, setting up batsmen for the kill, accuracy, you name it!

- Imran Khan - he raised up Wasim and Waqar and alone was an amazing bowler. As a result I'm torn between listing him individually here or adding him to the bullet points above or below.

- Richard Hadlee / Glenn McGrath / Kapil Dev- not just the stats, but their bowling acumen speak for themselves. One man show for bowling in the absence of a dedicated paired partner at the other end. As Gowza said, you had the bursts - whether McDermott/Gillespie/Reiffel for Aus to complement McGrath, but individually they all shone through.

tbh, bowlers like Vaas, Shoaib Akhtar, Brett Lee, Chris Cairns, Dale Steyn, Ntini, , Shane Bond, Flintoff, Harmy, etc are all superb and great bowlers but in comparison to the retired ones in the list above, are yet to leave the lasting legacy to join that list in my mind.

Gowza
August 28, 2012, 06:42 PM
I completely missed this thread.... But I've been reliving the 'Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse' stories lately.

Check this video (http://youtu.be/bPDW7hj1yfs) out from 1979. Presented by Richie Benaud - the World's Fastest Bowlers!

Given my somewhat selective cricket viewing that only covers games on video from the 70s onwards till the early 2000s, I'd leave Fred Trueman, Wes Hall and Larwood out of my list. Yes, I've watched the bodyline videos and read about it at length, but I'd rather be neutral and not sully their names or throw them in a competition with the next generation that spawned.

Another thing, most great bowlers were heavily complemented by another great bowler from the other end. Its a pity that Vaas did not have that sort of support till much later.

All time great pairs as such can be:

- Dennis Lillee and Jeff Thomson - they were the pioneers of pace and aggressive bowling that set the Windies up for world domination after 1975. They ensured the birth of go-for-the-kill professionalism attitude in world cricket.

- Allan Donald and Shaun Pollock - Allan Donald was deadly, aggressive and would send your stumps cartwheeling away. I wouldnt call him White Lightning for nothing.

- Michael Holding+ Andy Roberts+Colin Croft+Joel Garner - of these I would rate Andy Roberts as being as good as Holding. Simply because he was the mentor to the younger Michael Holding and shaped the Whispering Death in form and shape. No doubt Holding can claim spot no.1 on his own merits, but to leave out Roberts as a close number 2 would be injustice given the context of their times.

- Malcolm Marshall - for sure he took on after Croft and Roberts had gone. But he was undoubtedly the best after Holding got older in the 80s.

- Ambrose and Walsh - Both of them were intense. Walsh may have been slower than Ambrose, but they inherited the legacy of the Four Horsemen, they had Marshall with them and they went at it continuing to knocking the blocks off the batsmen.
- Waqar & Wasim - 'nuff said ; toe crushers, swing, pace, mixing of deliveries, setting up batsmen for the kill, accuracy, you name it!

- Imran Khan - he raised up Wasim and Waqar and alone was an amazing bowler. As a result I'm torn between listing him individually here or adding him to the bullet points above or below.

- Richard Hadlee / Glenn McGrath / Kapil Dev- not just the stats, but their bowling acumen speak for themselves. One man show for bowling in the absence of a dedicated paired partner at the other end. As Gowza said, you had the bursts - whether McDermott/Gillespie/Reiffel for Aus to complement McGrath, but individually they all shone through.

tbh, bowlers like Vaas, Shoaib Akhtar, Brett Lee, Chris Cairns, Dale Steyn, Ntini, , Shane Bond, Flintoff, Harmy, etc are all superb and great bowlers but in comparison to the retired ones in the list above, are yet to leave the lasting legacy to join that list in my mind.

top post, i like it. great write up, great analysis :up:

Gowza
September 6, 2012, 09:56 PM
i think atm my top 8 in no order would be lillee, waqar, marshall, garner, roberts, holding, donald and barnes (presuming he's a pacer but the more i read about him the more i hear about how he spun the ball, i'm starting to think he was a carrom spinner, much like mendis and like this new sri lankan kid Akila Dananjaya).