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Ian Pont
June 2, 2012, 11:22 PM
New rule will add variation to Tigers’ bowling: Jurgensen

Atif Azam

The use of two bouncers in an over in the one-day international as recommended by the International Cricket Council’s cricket committee recently will add variation to Bangladesh’s pace bowling attack, said bowling coach Shane Jurgensen.

The ICC’s cricket committee made the recommendation at its May 30-31 meeting at Lords where a wide range of issues were also discussed.

‘It’s hard to say at this moment as we have never played a game with that rule but the advantage for the bowlers is that it will provide another variation during the new ball, during the powerplay and the death overs,’ Jurgensen told New Age on Saturday.

‘Batters may then think twice whether to switch-hit, scoop or lap yorkers if they know that another bouncer is available to be used,’ said Jurgensen, who joined the Tigers in October, 2011 replacing Ian Pont.

Jurgensen observed that the Bangladeshi pace bowlers are at par with other players of the world as far fast bowling is concerned but believed that it will not be the only criterion for becoming successful with the bouncers.

‘We have guys pushing 135-140kph just like every other country does,’ said Jurgensen, who signed a contract that would see him with the Bangladesh team upto June 2013.

‘A good bouncer is just isn’t about the pace you bowl. It’s also about the impact of the pitch it has and also being smart about when to use the bouncer as a surprise,’ he said.

‘This rule if it comes in also includes the option for a slower bouncer too,’ said the Australian.

Among many other topics it was also discussed that the powerplay will be restricted to the first 10 overs plus one five-over batting powerplay, to be completed by the 40th over.

Unlike the past there would be no bowling powerplay and Jurgensen sees both advantage and disadvantage of it for the Tigers.
‘It may provide an opportunity to use more spin during the middle overs which may suit us and make life easier for the captains as it will help control the over rates slightly,’ said Jurgensen.

‘Bowling powerplays provide a lot of opportunity for wickets, our powerplay bowling was excellent in the recently concluded Asia Cup,’ he added.

http://www.newagebd.com/detail.php?date=2012-06-03&nid=12452

Interesting observation of the fast bowlers - comparing them to anderson, roach, broad, bresnan, steyn, cummings, hilfenhaus, philander, malinga, gul, etc, etc, etc

Thoughts?

TigerEz
June 2, 2012, 11:37 PM
uhm.....i dont know if you're that great yet.....but we will be soon InshaAllah

Maysun
June 2, 2012, 11:46 PM
Did Shane include Shahadat as well while observing?

Our pacers lack the consistency to bowl wicket taking deliveries and to intimidate the batsmen.

Tigers_eye
June 3, 2012, 12:02 AM
Coach, Jurgensen forgot to wear his contacts that day. There are only few aameer, Roach, Malinga in this world. The wickets we have, we will not produce likes as such in near future. Heck we don't have a 150 wicket taker.

Night_wolf
June 3, 2012, 12:11 AM
i think shane had too much drink

series
June 3, 2012, 12:59 AM
Nice to see Mr.Shane have so much confidence in our boys.. Hope the seamers can repay the confidence by some excellent performance in the T20 world cup!

shakibrulz
June 3, 2012, 01:29 AM
Perhaps just boosting their confidence, otherwise no. But I must say it has improved a lot recently in ODIs. Bowlers were pretty decent in Asia cup and were instrumental in the wins.

Razi
June 3, 2012, 01:47 AM
And your source, Mr. Pont?

betaar
June 3, 2012, 01:48 AM
Jorgensen has learnt the art of flattery and it's effect in our society....he's hoping to get his contract extended.

Sohel
June 3, 2012, 01:49 AM
Such a kaleidoscopic view of reality -- be it fueled purely by creativity or chemically induced -- is not only postmodern, but also of a different realm in the space-time continuum. Innovations like that are cool in art, literature, music and mathematical works and meanderings, not international cricket.

crikss
June 3, 2012, 01:56 AM
so Shane found any new bowler ?

Zeeshan
June 3, 2012, 02:01 AM
I am having hard time resisting a "Shane, response?" quip, but I am echoing First Class cricketer series here.

Sohel
June 3, 2012, 02:38 AM
In all seriousness, we'll never have quality fast bowlers or develop potentially good fast bowlers into the class of bowlers mentioned in Ian's original opening post in this country, until and unless:

1) We play on better pitches beyond BKSP.

2) We develop a culture of bowlers working hard on their own because of raw passion and desire.

Guys with decent pace like Rubel, Shubhashish, Raju, Rabbi, Robbin and Tanzin will do themselves a huge favor by playing a lot of cricket in environments where the right combination of better pitches and individual responsibility is the norm, not the exception. I'd love to see these guys play cricket in England, Australia of South Africa at ANY level. Even less pacy guys like Nazmul, Babu, Dollar, Zia and Reza may become better by playing there.

I don't even wanna think about Rajib :sick:

Blah
June 3, 2012, 02:49 AM
Saying this:

Jurgensen observed that the Bangladeshi pace bowlers are at par with other players of the world as far fast bowling is concerned

Is not the same as saying:

comparing them to anderson, roach, broad, bresnan, steyn, cummings, hilfenhaus, philander, malinga, gul, etc, etc, etc

There is a difference between being as fast as others and cherry picking and comparing them to some of the best in the world.

The context here is speed not the quality of the bowling and his reference speed is 135-140kph which is IMO the average speed of good fast bowlers if you don't cherry pick the best in the world.

I think you are putting words in his mouth, he didn't say we have bowlers who are as good as the best in the world. He is not comparing them with the best in the world.

cricket_fanatic
June 3, 2012, 02:50 AM
I would be keen to know exactly what Shane said and under what context. Also since he's already in BC, I think we should ask him what did he exactly mean, rather than trying trying to analyse it ourselves.

layperson
June 3, 2012, 02:53 AM
Saying this:



Is not the same as saying:



There is a difference between being as fast as others and cherry picking and comparing them to some of the best in the world.

The context here is speed not the quality of the bowling and his reference speed is 135-140kph which is IMO the average speed of good fast bowlers if you don't cherry pick the best in the world.

I think you are putting words in his mouth, he didn't say we have bowlers who are as good as the best in the world. He is not comparing them with the best in the world.

i concur

kalpurush
June 3, 2012, 03:00 AM
I don't even wanna think about Rajib :sick:
Sohel bhai, it's not only Rajib's fault, rather it's our team management and selectors! If you don't consider the game format and select players accordingly, you lost it right there IMHO.

Sohel
June 3, 2012, 03:05 AM
Sohel bhai, it's not only Rajib's fault, rather it's our team management and selectors! If you don't consider the game format and select players accordingly, you lost it right there IMHO.

Agree 100%. Can never get a 150CC Bajjaj to race like a 500CC Ninja although they're both Kawasaki bikes. What bothers me is when the 150CC Bajjaj runs like a old man unable to control his bladder while riding a bicycle.

kalpurush
June 3, 2012, 03:07 AM
i concur:up:
+1

As usual, we are too quick to make a statement (without even reading it properly!).

Sohel
June 3, 2012, 03:09 AM
To be fair, Ian edited his original post later and most of us were responding to that, not what's there now. This was his original post:

Interesting observation of the fast bowlers - comparing them to anderson, roach, broad, bresnan, steyn, cummings, hilfenhaus, philander, malinga, gul, etc, etc, etc

Thoughts?

I don't see Jurgensen actually mentioning those names but clearly see how his comments as reported can be interpreted the way Ian has interpreted them. Fact is, our fast bowlers have a long way to go when it comes to fast bowling in international cricket, and "just pace" is but one aspect of fast bowling at the highest level. Jurgensen's reported comment is at best a massive stretch. According to the report, he didn't say "at par with other players of the world as far as pace is concerned" but "as far as fast bowling is concerned". "Fast bowling" isn't just "bowling fast". Cherry picking seems to be happening both ways. :)

Then again, the reporter could be taking liberties here creating the ambiguity.

Blah
June 3, 2012, 03:11 AM
Such a kaleidoscopic view of reality -- be it fueled purely by creativity or chemically induced -- is not only postmodern, but also of a different realm in the space-time continuum. Innovations like that are cool in art, literature, music and mathematical works and meanderings, not international cricket.

what does this "jumbled bunch of words" haphazardly put together even mean and what does it have to do with this thread?

kalpurush
June 3, 2012, 03:19 AM
Can never get a 150CC Bajjaj to race like a 500CC Ninja although they're both Kawasaki bikes. What bothers me is when the 150CC Bajjaj runs like a old man unable to control his bladder while riding a bicycle.
So true. And here comes BCB's lack of policy and procedures in place...

I remember when Shahadat first started, he was a good prospect for Bangladesh. Once Shahadat started doing well, we made him "hero" who started to think to be "Sha Rukh Khan" leading an indiscipline lifestyle to ruin himself! BCB failed to groom him (and some others) as they have no policy in place. Sad but true.

kalpurush
June 3, 2012, 03:25 AM
To be fair, Ian edited his original post later and most of us were responding to that, not what's there now. This was his original post:



I don't see Jurgensen actually mentioning those names but clearly see how his comments as reported can be interpreted the way Ian has interpreted them. Fact is, our fast bowlers have a long way to go when it comes to fast bowling in international cricket, and "just pace" is just one aspect of fast bowling at the highest level. Jurgensen's comment is at best a massive stretch. He didn't say "with par with other players of the world as far as pace is concerned" but " as far as fast bowling is concerned" but "as good as others".Cherry picking seems to be happening both ways. :)

Then again, the reporter could be taking liberties here.
Fair enough. Didn't read Ian's unedited post. I withdraw my comment. :facepalm:

Ian Pont
June 3, 2012, 04:03 AM
Any idea what other world fast bowlers you guys think the Bangladesh pacers are on a par with? Is this just about speed (as in other bowlers bowl 125-135 so we are not slower).

It serves to show as a lesson that things taken out of context can have a different meaning.

If you have the word SPEED into the sentence: Jurgensen observed that the Bangladeshi pace bowlers SPEED is at par with other players of the world as far fast bowling is concerned... then the meaning is totally different.

I highlight this because so many people misunderstand what is sometimes said. This was a classic and deliberate example of editing someone's comments. What Shane was saying was that the local bowlers are no slower than some other bowlers in other countries. He is quite correct. Taken out of context it can simply be he is saying the pace attack is AS GOOD as others, which he never said.

This is the danger of reporting, tweeting and interviews. They can be viewed many ways.

kalpurush
June 3, 2012, 04:12 AM
Any idea what other world fast bowlers you guys think the Bangladesh pacers are on a par with? Is this just about speed (as in other bowlers bowl 125-135 so we are not slower).

.
Bangladesh pacers are on par or EVEN better than any Indian bowlers at the moment IMHO if you consider only SPEED.

Our pacers are better than any Zimbabwean also. WE aren't that behind as to Pakistani pacers as well at the mement.

Sohel
June 3, 2012, 04:15 AM
Sports reporting in general and cricket reporting in particular isn't good in Bangladesh. We have "reporters" simply writing down a narrative summery of the statistics without presenting the qualitative context. We know nothing about the type and quality of the deliveries or strokes influencing match through the reporter's description of just how those numbers came about and when. Some write well and some don't but the match reporting tends to be poor when compared to those in Cricinfo and other news sources. As a matter of fact, I cannot think of a single published Bangladeshi report with such context other than one of Mohammad Isam's written a while ago.

When it comes reports not related to a match, we tend to conflate terms and create unnecessary controversy. We have a long way to go when it comes to sports reporting also.

Blah
June 3, 2012, 04:48 AM
Any idea what other world fast bowlers you guys think the Bangladesh pacers are on a par with? Is this just about speed (as in other bowlers bowl 125-135 so we are not slower).



IMO taken these facts in to consideration that:

- Bangladesh as a cricket team or a nation is not associated with a pace boiling attack or pace bowler breading ground;
- the fact that Bangladesh rarely plays more than 2 pace bowlers in a game
- and you can literally count in one hand the number of pace attack options we have.

Bangladesh medium fast bowlers are as good as any fast bowlers in the world (minus the few that are the best).

I think its a false dichotomy to associate raw speed with quality of bowler.

If you want to speak strictly on numbers to compare bangladesh pace bowlers with others in the world. Bangladesh as a team doesn't play enough games in enough variation of condition as frequently for a long enough time to make such a comparison. The only Bangladesh player that comes in to mind is mashrafe, who has been in and out of the game more often than my last relationship.

At the end of the day you have to rely on coach's opinion and take it with a grain of salt.

fuadomar
June 3, 2012, 05:18 AM
Bangladesh pacers are on par or EVEN better than any Indian bowlers at the moment IMHO if you consider only SPEED.

Our pacers are better than any Zimbabwean also. WE aren't that behind as to Pakistani pacers as well at the mement.
Too opmistic of a comment. Let's not talk about the main pool of pacers of India. I saw Umesh Yadav, Varun Aaron, Mandeep Singh to bowl at more than 145 KM/h speed consistently in IPL. Name me some with the same speed in BD.

kalpurush
June 3, 2012, 06:06 AM
Too opmistic of a comment. Let's not talk about the main pool of pacers of India. I saw Umesh Yadav, Varun Aaron, Mandeep Singh to bowl at more than 145 KM/h speed consistently in IPL. Name me some with the same speed in BD.
I was referrng national team. And I have never seen the above bowlers bowling consistently at more than 145km/h. They bowled at 140 +, but was inconsistent.

RBX can bowl at 140 +
Even our Sha Rukh Khan can bowl at 140 + too!

Gowza
June 3, 2012, 06:40 AM
yeah don't think BD pacers are up to the mark whether it be speed or quality, especially comparing them to RSA, Eng, Aus. however there are a number of players who can hit 140+ and can consistently bowl 135+, problem is in BD there isn't the quality coaching, competition or self motivation and work ethic for these players to really hone their trade to the quality of international cricket.

they have the tools, but they don't put it all together. don't need to be a 150kph bowler to succeed internationally, 130kph+ and control, accuracy, line and length, movement, seam etc those things are jsut as important as pace at the highest level, as long as they bowl 130+ their pace is fine just need to work on the other things.

Kohli_Sox
June 3, 2012, 07:44 AM
party time for Sharapova but he bowls 6 bouncers or short pitches anyway so for Sharapova it's all same

Night_wolf
June 3, 2012, 07:48 AM
Even our Sha Rukh Khan can bowl at 140 + too!

i think indian sha rukh khan can bowl faster then ours KP bhai...forget 140k+

zinatf
June 3, 2012, 08:03 AM
^:lol: Nekre!
Good thread Ian :up:

Rubel's pretty fast....Mash was as well, but thanks to the series of injuries he had....he won't be bowling with that pace unless he wants to limp permanently

Ian Pont
June 3, 2012, 08:07 AM
I think its a false dichotomy to associate raw speed with quality of bowler.



This where I really disagree with you. To bowl quick isn't some kind of random act. I don't know ANY genuinely fast bowlers who are not quality.

Let's keep it simple and take the fastest balls of all time by bowler, and you tell me if the bowlers are not quality:

1. Shoaib Akthar 161.3
2. Brett Lee 160.8
3. Shaun Tait 160.7
4. Jeff Thomson 160.4
5. Andy Roberts 159.5
6. Fidel Edwards 157.7
7. Mohammed Sami 156.4
7. Shane Bond 156.4
9. Dale Steyn 155.7
9. Lasith Malinga 155.7

I guarantee you this: if any Bangladeshi bowler bowled at these speeds he would be quality.

Speed gives you an undeniable asset on even the flattest, friendliest bowling pitches.

Don't get sucked into the camp that says 128 kph is 'quality'. The truth is, if you bowl that slowly, you have to have amazing control, swing and movement. If the Bangladesh attack gets smoked it's usually Nazmul (or Mash) who we praise because they have been effective compared to the rest.

The 10 bowlers listed above prove your theory quite wrong and in fact you can associate high speed with quality of bowler. It's not a dichotomy to be be a genuine speed bowler and quality as the two are often associated. It's simply that so few coaches can coach speed into bowlers that we don't focus on it.

Navo
June 3, 2012, 08:42 AM
Ian, I agree that speed is definitely a factor but how much speed do you need?

Among the 10 you listed, how many would you pick in your all time xi? Andy Roberts, Jeff Thompson or Steyn maybe? The others have been very good, without becoming all time greats. Shaun Tait is usually very wayward when he bowls at his fastest and Bond was always prone to injury. Lee and Malinga (in ODIs and T20) have lived up to their potential somewhat but the remaining have not.

Many of the bowlers who are spoken of when all time xis are made are usually a bit slower than the above but admittedly, not by much. You have the Wasims, Waqars, Holdings etc. Towards the end of their careers, Wasim and Waqar still took a sizable number of wickets despite their pace easing up.

Kohli_Sox
June 3, 2012, 08:42 AM
This where I really disagree with you. To bowl quick isn't some kind of random act. I don't know ANY genuinely fast bowlers who are not quality.

Let's keep it simple and take the fastest balls of all time by bowler, and you tell me if the bowlers are not quality:

1. Shoaib Akthar 161.3
2. Brett Lee 160.8
3. Shaun Tait 160.7
4. Jeff Thomson 160.4
5. Andy Roberts 159.5
6. Fidel Edwards 157.7
7. Mohammed Sami 156.4
7. Shane Bond 156.4
9. Dale Steyn 155.7
9. Lasith Malinga 155.7

I guarantee you this: if any Bangladeshi bowler bowled at these speeds he would be quality.

Speed gives you an undeniable asset on even the flattest, friendliest bowling pitches.

Don's get sucked into the camp that says 128 kph is 'quality'. The truth is, if you bowl that slowly, you have to have amazing control, swing and movement. If the Bangladesh attack gets smoked it's usually Nazmul (or Mash) who we praise because they have been effective compared to the rest.

The 10 bowlers listed above prove your theory quite wrong and in fact you can associate high speed with quality of bowler. It's not a dichotomy to be be a genuine speed bowler and quality as the two are often associated. It's simply that so few coaches can coach speed into bowlers that we don't focus on it.

Yes but one important thing to note. When we discuss about speed, the speed range is also important. I agree that high speed brings quality inevitably given one can atleast pitch the ball in line but for this equation of speed and quality, bowler needs to hit 150 mark regularly. There are many bowlers in the range of 135-145 who are pretty average. So if a bowler hits 150 and pitch the ball in line, quality comes in automatically.

Ian Pont
June 3, 2012, 08:47 AM
Yes but one important thing to note. When we discuss about speed, the speed range is also important. I agree that high speed brings quality inevitably given one can atleast pitch the ball in line but for this equation of speed and quality, bowler needs to hit 150 mark regularly. There are many bowlers in the range of 135-145 who are pretty average. So if a bowler hits 150 and pitch the ball in line, quality comes in automatically.

Thats my point. I am talking about raw pace... the poster (Blah) said raw speed doesn't mean quality. I am saying it virtually always does. 135-145 isn't 'raw speed'. Bowling above 90 mph is 'speed' which is in the 148-158 range

Ian Pont
June 3, 2012, 08:55 AM
Ian, I agree that speed is definitely a factor but how much speed do you need?

Among the 10 you listed, how many would you pick in your all time xi? Andy Roberts, Jeff Thompson or Steyn maybe? The others have been very good, without becoming all time greats. Shaun Tait is usually very wayward when he bowls at his fastest and Bond was always prone to injury. Lee and Malinga (in ODIs and T20) have lived up to their potential somewhat but the remaining have not.

Many of the bowlers who are spoken of when all time xis are made are usually a bit slower than the above but admittedly, not by much. You have the Wasims, Waqars, Holdings etc. Towards the end of their careers, Wasim and Waqar still took a sizable number of wickets despite their pace easing up.

Everyone you mentioned bowled 145 kph and above. In history, the greatest fast bowlers were also those who bowled these speeds.

In the modern game, it is only McGrath (who bowled 128-135) and Pollock (who started at 145 then dropped to 134) who can be classed as legends as bowlers who deserve legendary status - but they were not STRICTLY pace bowlers anyway.

Blah's argument is so flawed because to be classified as truly 'fast' you are bowling above 145. None of the Bangladesh bowlers can do that regularly. Only Rubel has crossed that a few times. So none can be classified thus as fast bowlers.

A great fast bowler can drop his speed and swing the ball about (Steyn, Donald, Anderson) if they need to. A medium pace bowler cannot suddenly find 10-15 kph from nowhere.

Night_wolf
June 3, 2012, 10:54 AM
^but you told us you saw sahadat bowl 145+ in nets

BD Rox
June 3, 2012, 12:38 PM
I don't think we've speed guns during nets.

Ian Pont
June 3, 2012, 12:47 PM
^but you told us you saw sahadat bowl 145+ in nets

Sadly NW, he has never been able to translate this into matches. And I feel that he is now stuck between trying to bowl a line and length or going for pace. His speed has again dropped and I notice he is back to his old habit of collapsing his front leg - something we had worked on and was having success with, hence the upgraded speeds.

BD Rox
June 3, 2012, 12:52 PM
We should all now forget Shahadat. Let him be where he is. No need to have any sort of headache for him. Chapter closed.

Blah
June 3, 2012, 01:41 PM
This where I really disagree with you. To bowl quick isn't some kind of random act. I don't know ANY genuinely fast bowlers who are not quality.

Let's keep it simple and take the fastest balls of all time by bowler, and you tell me if the bowlers are not quality:

1. Shoaib Akthar 161.3
2. Brett Lee 160.8
3. Shaun Tait 160.7
4. Jeff Thomson 160.4
5. Andy Roberts 159.5
6. Fidel Edwards 157.7
7. Mohammed Sami 156.4
7. Shane Bond 156.4
9. Dale Steyn 155.7
9. Lasith Malinga 155.7

I guarantee you this: if any Bangladeshi bowler bowled at these speeds he would be quality.

Speed gives you an undeniable asset on even the flattest, friendliest bowling pitches.

Don't get sucked into the camp that says 128 kph is 'quality'. The truth is, if you bowl that slowly, you have to have amazing control, swing and movement. If the Bangladesh attack gets smoked it's usually Nazmul (or Mash) who we praise because they have been effective compared to the rest.

The 10 bowlers listed above prove your theory quite wrong and in fact you can associate high speed with quality of bowler. It's not a dichotomy to be be a genuine speed bowler and quality as the two are often associated. It's simply that so few coaches can coach speed into bowlers that we don't focus on it.

I spend a good part of 30 minutes writing a thoughtful reply with examples and stats from cricinfo statsguru but unfortunately I accidently closed the tab with a keyboard shortcut. :(

So I will make it short.

When I said :


I think its a false dichotomy to associate raw speed with quality of bowler.

I meant to say is that raw speed can be one of the qualities of a good bowler but having raw speed alone doesn't make one (or a pre-requisite to be) a quality bowler; hence the association of raw speed with quality of bowler is wrong.

How many winning games was a fast bowler involved with (http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?bowling_pacespin=1;class=1;filter=advan ced;orderby=wickets;qualmin1=100;qualval1=wickets; result=1;template=results;type=bowling) (but also look at their avg)?

I can only see 3 from the top 10 who consistently bowled 145+, most others had their best career when they actually slowed down.

al Furqaan
June 3, 2012, 01:44 PM
In the Asia cup shahadat was bowling at his usual pace of 135, occaisionally approaching closer to 140. He hasn't bowled Thant quick in a few years.

Kohli_Sox
June 3, 2012, 02:26 PM
^but you told us you saw sahadat bowl 145+ in nets

maybe those balls were all going right over the batsman's head out goes over the wall and right into the roof of double decker bus

fiasnahk
June 3, 2012, 02:52 PM
^ Lol, People lost sight of the ball after a Shahadat Hussain super bouncer due to distractions met by his annoying scream. The ball was sighted on the moon.

TigerEz
June 3, 2012, 03:17 PM
i remember virat kohli was struggling big time against shahadats bowling in asia cup :p

Kohli_Sox
June 3, 2012, 04:32 PM
^ Lol, People lost sight of the ball after a Shahadat Hussain super bouncer due to distractions met by his annoying scream. The ball was sighted on the moon.

The NASA sighted the ball as another planet, some of them arguably thought at last scientists were able to find a living place but to massive disappointment of much anticipated crowds gathered on a rainy day in Alabama and Alaska, they denied the whole matter but reports confirmed that they will still continue to assess the condition and later might send a pathfinder to know the actual facts.

Ian Pont
June 3, 2012, 10:21 PM
I
I meant to say is that raw speed can be one of the qualities of a good bowler but having raw speed alone doesn't make one (or a pre-requisite to be) a quality bowler; hence the association of raw speed with quality of bowler is wrong.

How many winning games was a fast bowler involved with (http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?bowling_pacespin=1;class=1;filter=advan ced;orderby=wickets;qualmin1=100;qualval1=wickets; result=1;template=results;type=bowling) (but also look at their avg)?

I can only see 3 from the top 10 who consistently bowled 145+, most others had their best career when they actually slowed down.

...and you can make any comments to change the argument to suit you, bhai.

Fact is, if you can bowl 150 kph plus, you are a pretty special bowler, not some random chump who doesn't know what he is doing. If you understand biomechanics you would know this.

I fully understand you are trying to make the age old argument of 'slow down bowl a line and length' in general. My stance is if you can bowl excess speeds you are LIKELY to be a quality bowler. If you can only bowl 128 then you are not, unless you have amazing control, swing, movement etc etc etc.

If the Bangladesh attack all bowled in excess of 150 kph (like West Indies did in the 1980s) then it would be a completely different bowling attack to now and would forever alter how Bangladesh was perceived in the world.

Case closed.

BengaliPagol
June 4, 2012, 12:01 AM
...and you can make any comments to change the argument to suit you, bhai.

Fact is, if you can bowl 150 kph plus, you are a pretty special bowler, not some random chump who doesn't know what he is doing. If you understand biomechanics you would know this.

I fully understand you are trying to make the age old argument of 'slow down bowl a line and length' in general. My stance is if you can bowl excess speeds you are LIKELY to be a quality bowler. If you can only bowl 128 then you are not, unless you have amazing control, swing, movement etc etc etc.

If the Bangladesh attack all bowled in excess of 150 kph (like West Indies did in the 1980s) then it would be a completely different bowling attack to now and would forever alter how Bangladesh was perceived in the world.

Case closed.

So why cant Bangladesh produce 150k+ bowlers?
<br />Posted via BC Mobile Edition (Opera Mobile)

TimAus
June 4, 2012, 01:22 AM
A coach can't walk in and say that none of his players are any good. I don't think Bangladesh have the talent in the fast bowling arena that some other teams have, especially Australia, South Africa and England, but I also don't believe they're as terrible as some results would suggest. Bangladesh pace bowlers need to make sure they're constantly improving and are bowling the right lines and lengths. I think apart from Shahadat Hossain they have a good group of accurate medium fast guys who could be successful internationally. Just look at what Chaminda Vaas, Zaheer Khan and Chris Martin have achieved bowling in the low 130s. The key for them is planning, discipline and more experience.


Interesting observation of the fast bowlers - comparing them to anderson, roach, broad, bresnan, steyn, cummings, hilfenhaus, philander, malinga, gul, etc, etc, etc

Thoughts?

Who is Cummings? Unless you mean Pat Cummins but he's a teenager who's only played 4 first class games so it's tough to compare him to anyone, let alone the best in the world. If you wanted another Aussie it should have been Siddle, he's our best and fastest quick.

fiasnahk
June 4, 2012, 02:18 AM
Speed is good but accuracy and swing is much more vital. All the legends who had speed also had good accuracy. Waqar wouldnt have been famous for his yorkers if he didnt get them on target of the stumps. Similarly people like Sami and Tait arent in their squads because they are wayward. People have built entire careers based on accuracy, like Mcgrath, but people wnt be able to do so with only pace.

World Champs
June 4, 2012, 07:42 AM
Bangladesh pacers are on par or EVEN better than any Indian bowlers at the moment IMHO if you consider only SPEED.



LOL.... :lol:

Blah
June 4, 2012, 10:37 AM
Fact is, if you can bowl 150 kph plus, you are a pretty special bowler, not some random chump who doesn't know what he is doing.

I will take a match winner over a pretty special bowler any day of the week.

I will take a philander/mcgrath over a tait/lee any day of the week.

Ian Pont
June 4, 2012, 11:37 AM
I will take a match winner over a pretty special bowler any day of the week.

I will take a philander/mcgrath over a tait/lee any day of the week.

The basic premise of this discussion was, "if the bangladesh bowlers had raw pace, would it be better".. As you appear not to have categorised Shaun Tait and Brett Lee as match winners (amazingly) would you prefer them to Nazmul, Shafiul, Mash or Rubel?

I would love to have Tait and Lee in their prime over almost every other bowler playing International cricket bowling in Dhaka. And to have two Bangladeshis this pace would be unbelievable.

Philander (perhaps in time) and McGrath (historically) are massively efficient bowlers. Tait and Lee massively explosive and quick. On Dhaka pitches it is the pace through the air that unsettles batsmen, not movement off a flat pitch. After a while, the spinners replace the medium pacers as we all know, because they are not that effective on Dhaka and Chittagong pitches unless they swing it. Philander and McGrath are not massive swing bowlers. Steyn and Anderson yes, but not those two.

The argument of pace in Bangladesh is a moot one anyway as there is not a desire to bowl quick. But extreme pace would definitely make a massive difference in Bangladesh - just ask any of the batsmen.

If you rely on movement off the pitch you need a bit of grass which isn't there in Dhaka. If you rely on speed, you just need the ball. the pitch doesn't matter if you got gas. Mohammed Sami showed this at the BPL.

mufi_02
June 4, 2012, 11:45 AM
Good discussion.

Ian, why do you think there is this reluctance to bowl quick in BD? Is it because of the slow pitches? I don't know about pitches in Pak or SL, but they seem to produce bowlers with "raw speed". But you don't need the assistance of pitches if you want to bowl with extreme speed. If you have the ability, then you don't depend on pitches. You just rush in and bowl quick. So in that way, we can't blame the pitches. So in conclusion, I think its the lack of desire or passion. Most of the youngsters either dream of becoming a batsmen or SLAs.

Kohli_Sox
June 4, 2012, 11:59 AM
I might be totally wrong but strong "born" stamina also requires. Some people are born with strong power in biceps. Lol again I might be wrong. I would like to know more of this from Ian Pont about the effectiveness of born "stamina" in fast bowling. Also broad shoulders require I think.

Navo
June 4, 2012, 01:36 PM
I think part of the issue is that domestic coaches encourage their proteges to become SLAs or batsmen because they think that will increase the players chances of getting higher cricketing honors. A recent article posted on BC spoke about this. Besides Pacer Hunts, maybe the BCB should invest in special incentives for fast bowlers so that more kids dream of becoming a fast bowler?

Also, Ian, does Rubel have the ability to be a 150+ kmph bowler? (Assuming he recovers fully from his shoulder operation) Does he have the desire? Because otherwise he seems to be in good shape?

Ian Pont
June 4, 2012, 08:41 PM
Good discussion.

Ian, why do you think there is this reluctance to bowl quick in BD? Is it because of the slow pitches? I don't know about pitches in Pak or SL, but they seem to produce bowlers with "raw speed". But you don't need the assistance of pitches if you want to bowl with extreme speed. If you have the ability, then you don't depend on pitches. You just rush in and bowl quick. So in that way, we can't blame the pitches. So in conclusion, I think its the lack of desire or passion. Most of the youngsters either dream of becoming a batsmen or SLAs.

When a kid is playing tape ball cricket or street cricket he knows nothing of slow pitches in the DPL. I think it is not slow pitches that stop him. And you are right to point out that it has to be a desire. It is whether someone grows wanting to be a fast bowler that motivates them. Young bowlers need heros. Bangladesh doesn't have any 150 kph fast bowling heros of its own.

Someone, somewhere must be passionate about pace bowling in Bangladesh for them to have the heart and desire to do the work needed to become a fast bowler. I just haven't seen that yet.

Ian Pont
June 4, 2012, 08:44 PM
I might be totally wrong but strong "born" stamina also requires. Some people are born with strong power in biceps. Lol again I might be wrong. I would like to know more of this from Ian Pont about the effectiveness of born "stamina" in fast bowling. Also broad shoulders require I think.

Everything you need to be a fast bowler you can develop. Whether it is strength, stamina, desire, drive, ambition, flexibility, etc. Understanding what to do and how to do it, is really the key to bowling fast.

Ian Pont
June 4, 2012, 08:56 PM
I think part of the issue is that domestic coaches encourage their proteges to become SLAs or batsmen because they think that will increase the players chances of getting higher cricketing honors. A recent article posted on BC spoke about this. Besides Pacer Hunts, maybe the BCB should invest in special incentives for fast bowlers so that more kids dream of becoming a fast bowler?

Also, Ian, does Rubel have the ability to be a 150+ kmph bowler? (Assuming he recovers fully from his shoulder operation) Does he have the desire? Because otherwise he seems to be in good shape?

It is fine to have a pacer hunt and ID potential, but what do you do to develop that into a world class fast bowler? Unless you are going to be coaching speed into bowlers how are they going to get their pace up to 150 kph? Supreme understanding of biomechanics and how that works for each bowler you coach has to be there, otherwise the bowlers will not develop fully. This is partly why coaches encourage batting and slow bowling, and fast bowling coaches teach run up and how to hold a cricket ball, mindset and strength training because you don't need to understand biomechanics to do that.

A pacer hunt and spending time coaching potential quicks only works if what you coach them actually increases their pace. Otherwise you are simply relying on what they came with.

Rubel bowled a ball at 149 kph in the WC in 2011 against West Indies. He is a reluctant fast bowler though. Often his speed will be around 135 kph so I feel he does the minimum required in his training and whilst he does what he is told to do, the point about desire is that it comes from inside you. My personal view is Rubel, if he chose to be, could be a seriously quick fast bowler. It might just all be a bit too hard work for him. He's a great lad and always happy and smiling. But underachieves when he has more to offer. I am hoping his injury gives him the chance to build up and come back stronger, keener and with a huge passion for pace.

mufi_02
June 5, 2012, 09:03 AM
Everything you need to be a fast bowler you can develop. Whether it is strength, stamina, desire, drive, ambition, flexibility, etc. Understanding what to do and how to do it, is really the key to bowling fast.

This is good to hear. I am not that built. My top speed is only 115 kph but I never had any formal training. This winter I practiced in the indoor facility in NJ and I saw you did some coaching courses there last year. If I knew, I would have definitely came and got some tips :)

As you said, it takes a lot to be a fast bowler. Out of the current lot, I like Peter Siddle's aggression and passion. Even if its the last over in the day (Test), he will run hard and bowl his heart out.

Navo
June 5, 2012, 09:07 AM
Dale Steyn too - whether it is a Test match or an IPL T20, he really steams in. His match winning spell for the Deccan Chargers against the Delhi Daredevils (I think) was incredible to watch. Such hostility and skill.

BD Rox
June 5, 2012, 02:10 PM
I might be totally wrong but strong "born" stamina also requires. Some people are born with strong power in biceps. Lol again I might be wrong. I would like to know more of this from Ian Pont about the effectiveness of born "stamina" in fast bowling. Also broad shoulders require I think.

We BD people eat 'Dal-Bhat'.....LOL.

Gowza
June 5, 2012, 09:03 PM
glad that the coach is involving himself in the fast bowling camps, aside from improving local coaches knowledge this is a great way to impart knowledge onto the players and also scope out the talent and the prospects.

Ian Pont
June 5, 2012, 11:50 PM
glad that the coach is involving himself in the fast bowling camps, aside from improving local coaches knowledge this is a great way to impart knowledge onto the players and also scope out the talent and the prospects.

I wouldn't get too excited about camps like these except for meeting and greeting the locals.

It is a good way to see local boys and discover if there is some raw talent (as you say 'scoping' out the prospects) , but you cannot do much very meaningful except pass on tips. That doesn't really impact and is not 'coaching' cricket. This is why when you have a "big name" come in for a workshop or camp, the impact is almost nil. That's because the work has to be done for long, hard hours under supervision and guidance over a long period of time.

As an example, I am currently in India working with Ranji team Haryana. I have had 17 quicks for one month almost and we are starting to see some good progress. But this is every single day, drills, nets, video reviews and interaction. It is taking this long and that depth of intervention and support, to see positive and lasting progression. Plus of course, my coaching methods are highly advanced and I have to educate the bowlers first.

I am doing here, what I was never able to do in Bangladesh - get access to players for long enough to make the difference I would have wanted. I cannot imagine the progression in Nazmul, Rubel, Shahadat and Shafiul plus Babu, Faisal Rabbi and others like Emon Ahmed, if I had a one month intense camp like this one here.

So whilst it is terrific to see coaches seeing fresh faces and passing on some tips about how to hold a cricket ball or what line to bowl, I don't think the local coaches or the players will suddenly develop into International stars.

The secret of successful coaching is about two things:

1. The time you can spend with a player (access)
2. What you actually coach in that time (content)

Having run a successful cricket academy for 19 years, I can say that workshops and camps are not the answer. Only a long-term, well-structured, fully-funded programme is.

Sohel
June 6, 2012, 12:13 AM
Having run a successful cricket academy for 19 years, I can say that workshops and camps are not the answer. Only a long-term, well-structured, fully-funded programme is.

Absofreakinlutely coach. Couldn't agree more :)

Gowza
June 6, 2012, 01:20 AM
Of course I agree the longer you get to spend with a player the better and results don't happen overnight but at least the coach is going to the camp and involving himself in more than just the national team itself

Tigers_eye
June 6, 2012, 08:08 AM
Our COUCHING is done in the national team. A little too late.

mufi_02
June 6, 2012, 08:47 AM
I agree that a long-term programme will find and nurture the talent. Is Haryana academy funded by BCCI or state board? I heard that you were in talks with Tommy Miah for a similar academy in Sylhet. It was in the news that Ian Botham will come and open it. What is going on with it?

zinatf
June 6, 2012, 10:06 AM
I agree that a long-term programme will find and nurture the talent. Is Haryana academy funded by BCCI or state board? I heard that you were in talks with Tommy Miah for a similar academy in Sylhet. It was in the news that Ian Botham will come and open it. What is going on with it?

Sounds great! Ian please do reply...would love to hear if there's any update to it.....

Ian Pont
June 6, 2012, 10:19 AM
I agree that a long-term programme will find and nurture the talent. Is Haryana academy funded by BCCI or state board? I heard that you were in talks with Tommy Miah for a similar academy in Sylhet. It was in the news that Ian Botham will come and open it. What is going on with it?

Working with the HCA is their own initiative. It's a long term plan to ID and produce pace bowlers. Apart from Harshal Patel (who debuted for Royal Challengers Banglaore in the IPL) who is a great prospect, we have Mohit Sharma who is someone that could go on to play for India in the next year or so.

With regard to TMCA, it is disappointing to report that I have heard nothing, or had a response from Tommy, for almost a year. I guess he is doing his own thing and I wish him well though. I know he was trying to get some big names involved for PR and publicity. If it all goes ahead as planned it will be a great facility. Let's hope the local lads can all benefit.

LateCut
June 6, 2012, 11:21 AM
"Shane is inSane" if he is comparing our dibbly-dobbly pacers with frontline bowlers outside the subcontinent. We touch the speed of the fringe bowlers of those nations but never apporach consitency and accuracy that are commonly observed there. You cannot develop quickies when openning the innings with SLAs bring success in the slow and low pitches prevelant here.

fiasnahk
June 7, 2012, 05:57 PM
Ian isnt it time for another pacer hunt? The last time we did it we got someone like rubel to come through. Its been about 3-4 years so maybe we should try it again and see if there are any new prospects out there? Because i think things like seam and swing can be taught whereas speed is something which is inborn...

tiger1000
June 7, 2012, 06:44 PM
It is fine to have a pacer hunt and ID potential, but what do you do to develop that into a world class fast bowler? Unless you are going to be coaching speed into bowlers how are they going to get their pace up to 150 kph? Supreme understanding of biomechanics and how that works for each bowler you coach has to be there, otherwise the bowlers will not develop fully. This is partly why coaches encourage batting and slow bowling, and fast bowling coaches teach run up and how to hold a cricket ball, mindset and strength training because you don't need to understand biomechanics to do that.

A pacer hunt and spending time coaching potential quicks only works if what you coach them actually increases their pace. Otherwise you are simply relying on what they came with.

Rubel bowled a ball at 149 kph in the WC in 2011 against West Indies. He is a reluctant fast bowler though. Often his speed will be around 135 kph so I feel he does the minimum required in his training and whilst he does what he is told to do, the point about desire is that it comes from inside you. My personal view is Rubel, if he chose to be, could be a seriously quick fast bowler. It might just all be a bit too hard work for him. He's a great lad and always happy and smiling. But underachieves when he has more to offer. I am hoping his injury gives him the chance to build up and come back stronger, keener and with a huge passion for pace.

You talk alot about speed, people ask alot about why BD can't produce 150+ Fast bowlers - Surley that has to do with their genes and physical capability - obviously I don't know anything close to what you know about bowling, but I have talk to many fitness trainers and coach's of other sports (mainly MMA and Boxing), most things I get is that Explosive Power is down to what you are born with - With correct technique you can add a small percentage to this and you are able to use more of your muscles, but it would still would be dictated by what you are born with - in cricketing terms does that mean a 135 bowler can never exceed 145, to touch one 150 you need to be naturally able to bowl over 140 without too much difficulty?

Fitness trainers of boxing/MMA (who have degree's to back up their knowledge (I cant remember the exact degree)) say that most normal people only use about 25% of their muscle capacity or Strength when they want to fully use it due to lack of technique, most professional athletes use only 50-60%, with improved technique they can improve on their powers, but a average strength person will never be as naturally gifted in this department as a Powerfull person and even with training and technique you wont be able to match the powerfull athletes - I want to know how much of this actually translates into cricket?

I know alot of power is natural because from experience in boxing you can get guys in perfect shape - but couldn't punch through a wet paper bag, then you get guy's with a wiry skinny frame, who are not that fast nor do they have very good technique, but a clean punch could switch your lights off

Ian Pont
June 7, 2012, 08:49 PM
You talk alot about speed, people ask alot about why BD can't produce 150+ Fast bowlers - Surley that has to do with their genes and physical capability - obviously I don't know anything close to what you know about bowling, but I have talk to many fitness trainers and coach's of other sports (mainly MMA and Boxing), most things I get is that Explosive Power is down to what you are born with - With correct technique you can add a small percentage to this and you are able to use more of your muscles, but it would still would be dictated by what you are born with - in cricketing terms does that mean a 135 bowler can never exceed 145, to touch one 150 you need to be naturally able to bowl over 140 without too much difficulty?

Fitness trainers of boxing/MMA (who have degree's to back up their knowledge (I cant remember the exact degree)) say that most normal people only use about 25% of their muscle capacity or Strength when they want to fully use it due to lack of technique, most professional athletes use only 50-60%, with improved technique they can improve on their powers, but a average strength person will never be as naturally gifted in this department as a Powerfull person and even with training and technique you wont be able to match the powerfull athletes - I want to know how much of this actually translates into cricket?

I know alot of power is natural because from experience in boxing you can get guys in perfect shape - but couldn't punch through a wet paper bag, then you get guy's with a wiry skinny frame, who are not that fast nor do they have very good technique, but a clean punch could switch your lights off

Without getting into a huge amount of detail you need to be clear on a few things.

1. Fast bowling is a process, and like any process it can be learned
2. No one is 'born' anything. All skills we develop are from seeing, learning and doing
3. What is 'natural' can be changed if you practice it a different way enough times
4. Humans jump higher, throw further, hit harder, run faster - all by learning how to
5. It is useful to have an athletic, strong frame to bowl fast. But it isn't the most important thing
6. Some people have different inherent abilities, but that doesn't stop anyone from being a successful fast bowler
7. A capacity to 'learn', have a passion for fast bowling and a big heart, are as important as anything

I have bowlers who have increased speed 15-20 kph from learning the right biomechanical way to bowl. With the correct help and knowledge, any bowler can make themselves faster. Just as long as the seven points above are understood.

The issue really is, can coaches understand how to teach speed? Those that don't know how to coach pace, believe pace is all natural. If this was true then in other sports like swimming, running and throwing, coaches would have nothing to do.

Ace of BD
June 8, 2012, 03:22 AM
Without getting into a huge amount of detail you need to be clear on a few things.

1. Fast bowling is a process, and like any process it can be learned
2. No one is 'born' anything. All skills we develop are from seeing, learning and doing
3. What is 'natural' can be changed if you practice it a different way enough times
4. Humans jump higher, throw further, hit harder, run faster - all by learning how to
5. It is useful to have an athletic, strong frame to bowl fast. But it isn't the most important thing
6. Some people have different inherent abilities, but that doesn't stop anyone from being a successful fast bowler
7. A capacity to 'learn', have a passion for fast bowling and a big heart, are as important as anything

I have bowlers who have increased speed 15-20 kph from learning the right biomechanical way to bowl. With the correct help and knowledge, any bowler can make themselves faster. Just as long as the seven points above are understood.

The issue really is, can coaches understand how to teach speed? Those that don't know how to coach pace, believe pace is all natural. If this was true then in other sports like swimming, running and throwing, coaches would have nothing to do.

The best statement ever coach!!!

tiger1000
June 8, 2012, 05:06 AM
Without getting into a huge amount of detail you need to be clear on a few things.

1. Fast bowling is a process, and like any process it can be learned
2. No one is 'born' anything. All skills we develop are from seeing, learning and doing
3. What is 'natural' can be changed if you practice it a different way enough times
4. Humans jump higher, throw further, hit harder, run faster - all by learning how to
5. It is useful to have an athletic, strong frame to bowl fast. But it isn't the most important thing
6. Some people have different inherent abilities, but that doesn't stop anyone from being a successful fast bowler
7. A capacity to 'learn', have a passion for fast bowling and a big heart, are as important as anything

I have bowlers who have increased speed 15-20 kph from learning the right biomechanical way to bowl. With the correct help and knowledge, any bowler can make themselves faster. Just as long as the seven points above are understood.

The issue really is, can coaches understand how to teach speed? Those that don't know how to coach pace, believe pace is all natural. If this was true then in other sports like swimming, running and throwing, coaches would have nothing to do.

2- I don't really agree with this, did guys like Brian Lara not have great natural gifts, How did George Foreman hit harder than Joe louis - Louis had the greatest technique of them all in punching.

4- Humans don't actually hit harder (in terms of punching) - there hasn't been a harder puncher than ernie shavers in 30 years

the point you are making is hard work can get you anywhere and that's good to tell school kids, but I believe pure special talent will get you there, Hardwork will help you mantain and improve on it.

I got a quesiton on the bowlers who bowled 15-20 faster, how much was it due to pure technique, how much was due to them not understanding their body correctly -hence not using the all the correct muscle's they have.

Obviously in bowling alot has to do with technique, but you can't ignore the fact some are born with natural gifts, surely you've come across a guy who doesn't have the build or technique but is able to bowl much quicker than what is expected.

Alot of my knowledge comes from combat sports, I do understand the fact it may not relate into cricket.

When I played cricket (U-16) I was much quicker than most, I wasn't nessecarily big nor did I practice more - everyone I played with played most of the year around, I played infrequently, I also didn't put in extra effort I just released it with ease and it came out fast - now people with same build - maybe bigger/better shape put in more effort couldn't get the same speed - just not U-16, in club cricket guys that were in early 20's couldn't get the speed I could get, I didn't practice day and night

Ian Pont
June 9, 2012, 09:14 AM
2- I don't really agree with this, did guys like Brian Lara not have great natural gifts, How did George Foreman hit harder than Joe louis - Louis had the greatest technique of them all in punching.

4- Humans don't actually hit harder (in terms of punching) - there hasn't been a harder puncher than ernie shavers in 30 years

the point you are making is hard work can get you anywhere and that's good to tell school kids, but I believe pure special talent will get you there, Hardwork will help you mantain and improve on it.

I got a quesiton on the bowlers who bowled 15-20 faster, how much was it due to pure technique, how much was due to them not understanding their body correctly -hence not using the all the correct muscle's they have.

Obviously in bowling alot has to do with technique, but you can't ignore the fact some are born with natural gifts, surely you've come across a guy who doesn't have the build or technique but is able to bowl much quicker than what is expected.

Alot of my knowledge comes from combat sports, I do understand the fact it may not relate into cricket.

When I played cricket (U-16) I was much quicker than most, I wasn't nessecarily big nor did I practice more - everyone I played with played most of the year around, I played infrequently, I also didn't put in extra effort I just released it with ease and it came out fast - now people with same build - maybe bigger/better shape put in more effort couldn't get the same speed - just not U-16, in club cricket guys that were in early 20's couldn't get the speed I could get, I didn't practice day and night

I don't claim to have all the answers, but coaching fast bowling for 19 years has given me a deep insight into the human psyche.

What is fact is that humans learn everything in life and are not 'imprinted' with a skill. Clearly some learn faster than others, some have better aptitude for retain complex information and some seem to 'like' a skill more than someone else. But basically, a combination of the points I made covers it all.

As a coach, I developed with the ECB's 5 part "success" pie chart that has the following compartments: technical, tactical, physical, mental and lifestyle. Each is interactive upon the other and each has an importance is developing world class cricketers. Put simply, a player who demonstrates high scores in all areas is likely to be hugely successful. A player weak in some areas, not likely. England currently sits at number 1 in Test cricket.

There will always be someone unique who is prolific even when doing things 'incorrectly'. There will always be someone just 'has what it takes' by not seemingly learning it the conventional way. We cannot cater for the oddities in the world and there will always be some who appear not to practice yet become terrific players. But they are not the benchmark we seek. Those that disprove the rule don't make the guidelines any less true.

Fast bowling is never definitive. However, you can learn the process and skills you need to be the best version of yourself. Otherwise a coach is just a waste of time.

I am guessing that a brilliant surgeon, wonderful lawyer or genius racing driver share the relative fundamentals for their chosen profession, of many of the points I originally made. There will always be people who don't fit the mold. And the world is more interesting due to them.

al Furqaan
June 9, 2012, 10:46 AM
Rubel bowled a ball at 149 kph in the WC in 2011 against West Indies. He is a reluctant fast bowler though. Often his speed will be around 135 kph so I feel he does the minimum required in his training and whilst he does what he is told to do, the point about desire is that it comes from inside you. My personal view is Rubel, if he chose to be, could be a seriously quick fast bowler. It might just all be a bit too hard work for him. He's a great lad and always happy and smiling. But underachieves when he has more to offer. I am hoping his injury gives him the chance to build up and come back stronger, keener and with a huge passion for pace.

Coach, I saw a replay of that 149 k delivery, and my first impression was it was probably a speed gun error since it seemed so random. I know Rubel is capable of such a speed, but its probably his absolute fastest effort ball. It would be great if I am wrong.

Rubel did hit 148k in England during the WT20 warm up matches in 2009.

tiger1000
June 9, 2012, 05:23 PM
I don't claim to have all the answers, but coaching fast bowling for 19 years has given me a deep insight into the human psyche.

What is fact is that humans learn everything in life and are not 'imprinted' with a skill. Clearly some learn faster than others, some have better aptitude for retain complex information and some seem to 'like' a skill more than someone else. But basically, a combination of the points I made covers it all.

As a coach, I developed with the ECB's 5 part "success" pie chart that has the following compartments: technical, tactical, physical, mental and lifestyle. Each is interactive upon the other and each has an importance is developing world class cricketers. Put simply, a player who demonstrates high scores in all areas is likely to be hugely successful. A player weak in some areas, not likely. England currently sits at number 1 in Test cricket.

There will always be someone unique who is prolific even when doing things 'incorrectly'. There will always be someone just 'has what it takes' by not seemingly learning it the conventional way. We cannot cater for the oddities in the world and there will always be some who appear not to practice yet become terrific players. But they are not the benchmark we seek. Those that disprove the rule don't make the guidelines any less true.

Fast bowling is never definitive. However, you can learn the process and skills you need to be the best version of yourself. Otherwise a coach is just a waste of time.

I am guessing that a brilliant surgeon, wonderful lawyer or genius racing driver share the relative fundamentals for their chosen profession, of many of the points I originally made. There will always be people who don't fit the mold. And the world is more interesting due to them.

I agree with most of what you said in this post, It's just another case of Nature vs Nurture - I just feel they both have huge impact, as a estimate I believe Nature gives About 35-40% obviously you think Nearly all of it for most comes from Nurture.:up:

TigerEz
June 10, 2012, 12:15 AM
This thread is causing a lot of problems at ICF....

Sohel
June 10, 2012, 03:09 AM
With a mesomorphic body type coming from a pretty athletic family on my father's side, I was seen as an athlete with way above average ability in high school and through college in terms of both power and endurance. I ran the 400m, 800m, 1500m, 3k, 5k, 10k, sculled and played soccer and ice hockey well with minimal practice. I was always focused on my studies and used that as an excuse to underachieve. Then as a business professional at age 30, I became a decent tube surfer and that led to middle distance triathlon. I HAD to work very hard for that through an endless training and active rest program between bi-monthly races, and guess what? My times on the track and performance on the ice, the water and the field were better than ever more than 6 years after college! I have no regret, but know now what I may have achieved had I worked harder. I could have represented Bangladesh or the USA in the 3-5k and sculling for sure if I had the sense.

Now at 45, the neglect over the past 6 years and caught up with me, and it will take years before I can even look at myself again without becoming profoundly disappointed. But I'm looking forward to the end of my procrastination and doing what I must.

What I'm trying to say is this: there's nothing mutually exclusive about nature versus nurture because both are deeply related when it comes to really accomplishing something in a competitive environment, and then sustain it over a period of time. Sachin Tendulkar practices harder than anyone else as if he has no talent. The result is there for all to see. That way, nurture is certainly more important.

Anyway, please accept my apologies for talking about myself and relating my personal experiences to illustrate a point I believe in. It is downright embarrassing to talk about the past now that I'm the Mayor of Moob City, Bangladesh.

BengaliPagol
June 10, 2012, 03:54 AM
^^I have an ectomorphic body type. Will that help me become a natural athlete like you?

Sohel
June 10, 2012, 04:18 AM
^^I have an ectomorphic body type. Will that help me become a natural athlete like you?

Ectomorphs are built for endurance, and with proper training, can excel at longer distance events. My weakest event in OD triathlon was the 40k bike followed by the 10k run with the 1.5k swim being the strongest. It will naturally be the opposite for you. My SD (750m swim, 5k run, 20k bike) triathlon times were the best by far perhaps because the shorter distances were more suited to my body type back then. The ectomorphs whom I raced with, guys who beat me regularly at OD distances, usually could not do nearly as well in the shortest version. Then again, they could also do the LC (1.9 swim, 21.1k run, 90k bike) and UD (3.8k swim, 42.2k run, 180k bike) triathlons I never could.

Anyway, there are always exceptions to the perceived rule. For example, in Sadarghat and elsewhere in Bangladesh, I see our ectomorphs bearing incredible loads for 8 hours straight in the heat, dust and pollution. That's superhuman strength and ability if you ask me.

BengaliPagol
June 10, 2012, 04:38 AM
Ectomorphs are built for endurance, and with proper training, can excel at longer distance events. My weakest event in OD triathlon was the 40k bike followed by the 10k run with the 1.5k swim being the strongest. It will naturally be the opposite for you. My SD (750m swim, 5k run, 20k bike) triathlon times were the best by far perhaps because the shorter distances were more suited to my body type back then. The ectomorphs whom I raced with, guys who beat me regularly at OD distances, usually could not do nearly as well in the shortest version. Then again, they could also do the LC (1.9 swim, 21.1k run, 90k bike) and UD (3.8k swim, 42.2k run, 180k bike) triathlons I never could.

Anyway, there are always exceptions to the perceived rule. For example, in Sadarghat and elsewhere in Bangladesh, I see our ectomorphs bearing incredible loads for 8 hours straight in the heat, dust and pollution. That's superhuman strength and ability if you ask me.

Im a natural long distance runner. That explains it because im not a natural sprinter.