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al Furqaan
June 19, 2012, 03:05 PM
We all know the NCL is a very weak litmus test for the preparedness of our cricketers. However, recently players such as Sunny and to a lesser extent Nazimuddin have looked somewhat decent in the limited contexts we've see them thus far. That raises hopes for up and comers like Anamul Bijoy, Asif, Saqlain Sajib, Arafat Sunny, Enamul Haque Jr who've all done well in the NCL consistently.

We all know how strong Indian domestic cricket is, allegedly. They have plenty of 50+ average batsmen who will never get a navy blue cap...we have none. But the recent India A team tour to WI, proves - or rather, seems to suggest - that there is more lurking beneath the obvious.

Ranji Trophy sides are blessed to have at least a couple double centurions every season. Our entire NCL saw just a single double ton in the whole of the year (Farhad Hossain's 216). Guys like Rohit Sharma, Pujara, and Mukhund all sport career FC averages far above 50. We're not talking 50.01 or even 52, but take a look at Rohit who averages damn near 60. And if that is not enough, Tiwary and Rahane average well into the 60s. In fact, Rahane is or at least was on cricinfo's list of highest first class averages of all time.

Now conditions in the WI are not very dissimilar to those in the subcontinent. The temperatures are almost identical, humidity is similar, even hours of daylight per day is similar due to the lattitude. Pitches start turning later on, and most wickets don't offer much bounce in both countries. Obviously the wickets were not as batsman friendly in WI, but conditions, that oft-repeated boogey-man are almost identical between the Caribbean and the Subcontinent.

However, during the a 3 match series, only Cheteshwar Pujara emerged with his reputation intact. He averaged just over 50, only a few runs less than his career average. Tiwary (30.33) was the only specialist batsman who averaged above 30. Rohit Sharma averaged a very mediocre 24, and the Bradman of the Ranji, Rahane, had a six innings series aggregate (62) that is less than his first class average (63.94) and well below his 68+ average coming into the series. Mukhun, who's a veteran of Test cricket, had a single digit average (7.66).

In contrast, our tour to WI last year, was far closer. Unlike the Indians who failed to cross 277...Bangladesh A racked up a score of 422 and the first innings lead. Granted we lost the series 1-0, and India faced a stronger and slightly more experienced side, but we were only a single wicket away from a 0-0 series draw. Nasir (61), Mominul (49), and Farhad Reza (41) all averaged over 40 with the bat.

None of this means a whole lot, since its an isolated tour, where any number of things can cloud the comparison. However, it does raise interesting questions, and proves that Bangladesh's development, as slow and corrupt as it is, is still happening. But the lesson to be learned is, lets not allow the mire of our system to cause us to discredit every player it produces simply based on their nationality.

Stats:

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/averages/batting_bowling_by_team.html?id=7320;team=1832;typ e=series

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/averages/batting_bowling_by_team.html?id=6945;team=719;type =series

Rifat
June 19, 2012, 03:49 PM
Asaad,

Thank you for this wonderful thread :)

None of this means a whole lot, since its an isolated tour, where any number of things can cloud the comparison. However, it does raise interesting questions, and proves that Bangladesh's development, as slow and corrupt as it is, is still happening. But the lesson to be learned is, lets not allow the mire of our system to cause us to discredit every player it produces simply based on their nationality.

Zeeshan
June 19, 2012, 04:02 PM
***ad,

Thank you for this wonderful thread :)

Clever clever.

I think Rifat is a mole. The fire rises.

Tendulkar_Mcgrath
June 19, 2012, 04:43 PM
I liked the thread. awesome!

Kohli_Sox
June 19, 2012, 08:45 PM
It's not always given that a domestic bully will necessarily emerge as a good International player. There have been many cases that a player who had a semi decent kind of career in domestic emerged as greats. So I think it takes a lot more to be able to deliver successfully at consistent basis @ Internationals. Yes, a tally of domestic runs under the belt is important but there are also added factors for which one becomes successful in Int. circuit. So, my question is what are those factors?

Navo
June 19, 2012, 09:54 PM
It's not always given that a domestic bully will necessarily emerge as a good International player. There have been many cases that a player who had a semi decent kind of career in domestic emerged as greats. So I think it takes a lot more to be able to deliver successfully at consistent basis @ Internationals. Yes, a tally of domestic runs under the belt is important but there are also added factors for which one becomes successful in Int. circuit. So, my question is what are those factors?

An ability to learn from your own mistakes quickly + a constant desire to improve and be the best you can be

Plain and simple guts and courage too

Night_wolf
June 19, 2012, 10:05 PM
we can show stats after stats, we can compare with the world but as long as they dont perform in the int stage nothing matters

Sohel
June 19, 2012, 10:24 PM
FC cricket amongst the test playing nations isn't all the same, obviously. So FC stats always need to be contextualized.

We lack real professionalism in Bangladesh and our alleged FC is referred to as picnic cricket by most cricketers and organizers alike. It isn't taken seriously. Naturally we have guys with limited ability do well there while others with better ability do not do as well when they ought to do better. The fact that our selection process is also rather arbitrary, often based on nepotism and lobbying, adds to the lack of seriousness. A VERY sad and exasperating situation indeed, but we need to consider its impact because it is there. So until we develop better professionalism and the quality of the cricket also improves, we cannot rely on the "conventional wisdom" from those cricket cultures VERY different from our own.

One good way to put the numbers in context from affairs such as the NCL is to think about how and under which circumstances runs were scored or wickets were taken based on acceptable criterion and actual observation. That will give us a more clear idea as to the ability of a given player to survive at the highest level with all of its high quality and intense pressure.

One needs to watch those matches for such observation to take place and needs to be knowledgeable enough about the criterion of what constitutes the type of ability that can enable a player to possibly sustain success in international cricket.

If it isn't possible to watch those matches, then we must rely on match reports. The better, CI type reports rather than our own DS/PA/Whatever type statistical summaries. The CI reports not only highlight key match situations and exactly how a batsman or a bowler responds to them with specific strokes and deliveries. We know the quality of the runs and wickets. We know whether they were streaky (unsustainable edges, dismissals due to unforced batting error rather than quality delivery) or classy (sustainable because of high percentage shotmaking, dismissals due to good bowling).

We need our reporters to go to the matches and accurately REPORT the game in terms of the actual ACTION out there. Not just summarize the scorecard and then put down their opinion the way they usually do. Until then, we'll be in the dark as to who's purely a domestic bully.

Kohli_Sox
June 19, 2012, 10:59 PM
One good way to put the numbers from affairs such as the NCL is to think about how and under which circumstances runs were scored or wickets were taken based on acceptable criterion and actual observation. That will give us a more clear idea as to the ability of a given player to survive at the highest level with all of its high quality and intense pressure.


plus one to this

playmaker
June 19, 2012, 11:35 PM
I think it comes down to temperament. Are the boys mentally prepared? How nervous are they?

Another thing is whether they are prepared to face the challenges of intl and whether they will work hard on their weakness. That is why some players fail to perform at the inlt level

Gowza
June 19, 2012, 11:46 PM
Yeah players need to constantly improve, they may perform well to begin with but once the international bowlers find any weakness they will jump on it and batsmen need to work to improve it.

Kohli_Sox
June 19, 2012, 11:57 PM
Also some finds it difficult to maintain the level of intensity they face @ International level

BANFAN
June 20, 2012, 12:33 AM
Who is a domestic bully?? None of our players are...even to be termed as a domestic bully, they need to do more...a fifty and a century here and there isn't worth calling someone a domestic bully...need regular doubles and triples in domestic, to be termed a bully...u get a lot of them in Indian domestic...

shakibrulz
June 20, 2012, 01:47 AM
Although a direct comparison is hard, I agree with the sentiments. Our domestic cricket is far from great, and we have plenty of domestic bullies around - like Wasim Jaffer, Akash Chopra, Joginder Sharma etc. Although to be fair, Rohit Sharma has a lot of potential, I hope he doesn't end up as Jaffer/Chopra 2.0.

BengaliPagol
June 20, 2012, 03:07 AM
What about Brad Hodge of Australia? Was absolutely killing it in the Australian FC cricket for a long period of time (averaging 48.81 after 223 FC matches) but only played 11 innings for Australia. From those 11 innings he averages 55.88 with a 203*.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/5674.html

Sohel
June 20, 2012, 03:10 AM
Siddons.

Sohel
June 20, 2012, 03:19 AM
Although a direct comparison is hard, I agree with the sentiments. Our domestic cricket is far from great, and we have plenty of domestic bullies around - like Wasim Jaffer, Akash Chopra, Joginder Sharma etc. Although to be fair, Rohit Sharma has a lot of potential, I hope he doesn't end up as Jaffer/Chopra 2.0.

Some of my Indian cousins have given up on him much in the same way many of us have given up on M:facepalm:tin. To be fair, the man they call No-hit Sharma didn't, couldn't and wouldn't get the chances the Bashabo Bomber keeps getting after "performing" in significantly lower quality domestics in Bangladesh.

playmaker
June 20, 2012, 03:45 AM
Forget all the structure and stuffs, what our boys really need is continuous cricket. We need to double the number of FC matches played per year. The month of ramadan can used for rest. The monsoon season can be good for practices, and away tours for A team, academy team and U-19 team

WarWolf
June 20, 2012, 06:21 AM
Do we have any real domestic bully? None of our boys have 50+ domestic average for 3 consecutive seasons.

None of them are successful big hitters too. Hitting a few fours or sixes and getting out in most of the matches doesn't make anyone a good big hitter. We are still far away from producing domestic bullies.

Tigers_eye
June 20, 2012, 06:36 AM
The current crop performed better than Imrul and Tushar Imran couple of years back?

The structure is pura "foul'er er foul"; emnei chipa goli....tarpor abar picnic'er bus miss. uff!!

M.H.Rubel
June 20, 2012, 08:14 AM
Well we dont have any good batsman in our domestic circuit those who have good batting averages.But we have lot of bowlers here who have good domestic averages but internationally they are very poor bowlers.In our local leagues Saqlain Shozib,Mohammad Sharif,Tarek Aziz Khan,Tapash Baishya are good quality bowlers but they just disappear in international or any other standard cricket.Not only these guys but some players like ASH,Tushar Imran,Riyadd,Nasir Hossain Shuvagoto Hom,Farhad Reza and many others regarded as quality allrounder but in reality none of them are near about an allrounder.

World Champs
June 20, 2012, 08:25 AM
Good to see Bangladesh A being competitive on that tour. Any impressive players from that tour that should be in the Bangladesh team???

Coming back to this Indian tour, I had great hopes from the likes of Rahane and Sharma, but they really disappointed. Among the positives, Pujara is now almost a certainity to replace Dravid in the Indian team and hopefully will play against Nz in the upcoming series and the continuous rise of fast bowler Shami Ahmed who really is growing as a player day by day.

betaar
June 20, 2012, 12:10 PM
Great write up Al, CI material.

Though from coaching POV basics make any player successful, in most level and condition, but it's the x factor (temperament) that makes one successful.
Shakib is not a domestic bully but he's more successful in international cricket where as players like Ash are not equal with their ability to turn talent into performance. For some players it takes big occassions to be at their best where as for others big occassions kill their natural ability. So in the end, a good combination of basic and temperament is the key for every players success.

Tiger444
June 20, 2012, 12:38 PM
A very nice article al furquaan. We're similar to the indians in that way. Both will score runs when the pitches have low bounce and flat but once there are pitches have a decent bounce or are just not very batting friendly, then they struggle. I think you see the Indians with much higher averages because their pitches are much better quality. Our pitches just suck period and doesn't suit any player. Overall, I would say talent wise our players, despite coming from a much poorer domestic set up are similar to the Indians.

Tiger444
June 20, 2012, 12:56 PM
Good to see Bangladesh A being competitive on that tour. Any impressive players from that tour that should be in the Bangladesh team???

Coming back to this Indian tour, I had great hopes from the likes of Rahane and Sharma, but they really disappointed. Among the positives, Pujara is now almost a certainity to replace Dravid in the Indian team and hopefully will play against Nz in the upcoming series and the continuous rise of fast bowler Shami Ahmed who really is growing as a player day by day.

Ya Pujara looks like he'll be a very good batsman in all forms but particularly Tests. Surprised to see Rahane doing so badly. I thought he would do a lot better. Same with Rohit. Expected to see Dhawan and Mukund struggle.

Regarding our players. Mominul scored a 150 on that tour and performed better than our other players. He's 1 our big middle order prospects and is having tough time making it since our middle order is well set. Shuvagata is also a good batsman but unfortunately hasn't played well in either domestics or the A team despite a very impressive series against Zimbabwe.

Kamrul Islam is a pacer and also has a very bright future. Expect him to be there soon in our national team.

playmaker
June 20, 2012, 02:24 PM
Great write up Al, CI material.

Though from coaching POV basics make any player successful, in most level and condition, but it's the x factor (temperament) that makes one successful.
Shakib is not a domestic bully but he's more successful in international cricket where as players like Ash are not equal with their ability to turn talent into performance. For some players it takes big occassions to be at their best where as for others big occassions kill their natural ability. So in the end, a good combination of basic and temperament is the key for every players success.

Have to agree. Temperament is something that seperates men from boys. When Nasir came into the intl scene he probably didnt have the domestics stat to back up his inclusion into the team ahead of many other prospects but boy did he have the temperament one needs to be an international standard batsman. He seems one of those who is undaunted by pressure and is so cool and calm. Remember, he averages 40+ in intl cricket :up:

We need players with the temparement like nasir. Hopefully, anamul will be as good temparement wise as Nasir. And after seeing his batting, inshallah he will solve our No. 3 problem

World Champs
June 21, 2012, 12:10 AM
A very nice article al furquaan. We're similar to the indians in that way. Both will score runs when the pitches have low bounce and flat but once there are pitches have a decent bounce or are just not very batting friendly, then they struggle. I think you see the Indians with much higher averages because their pitches are much better quality. Our pitches just suck period and doesn't suit any player. Overall, I would say talent wise our players, despite coming from a much poorer domestic set up are similar to the Indians.

You are right that Sub continent batsmen struggle when ball starts bouncing or swinging and many of them gets exposed badly. But India have continued to produce good batsmen in spite of these flat pitches and the Indian A team batsmen have scored runs in Eng and Aus on their last tours, so its not that they haven't scored in tough conditions before that's why everyone is shocked at their performance particularly Rahane and Sharma and to some extent Mukund. No one expects much from the likes of Tiwary and Dhawan. They are not good enough.

But this tour certainly shows the quality of young West Indian fast bowlers. Likes of Holder, Mclean and Johnson very highly rated in WI domestic cricket. And in IMO every A team could have struggled against these bowlers. I hope WI team build itself to top level team once again. They do need to find some good young batsmen though.

Tiger444
June 21, 2012, 12:34 AM
You are right that Sub continent batsmen struggle when ball starts bouncing or swinging and many of them gets exposed badly. But India have continued to produce good batsmen in spite of these flat pitches and the Indian A team batsmen have scored runs in Eng and Aus on their last tours, so its not that they haven't scored in tough conditions before that's why everyone is shocked at their performance particularly Rahane and Sharma and to some extent Mukund. No one expects much from the likes of Tiwary and Dhawan. They are not good enough.

But this tour certainly shows the quality of young West Indian fast bowlers. Likes of Holder, Mclean and Johnson very highly rated in WI domestic cricket. And in IMO every A team could have struggled against these bowlers. I hope WI team build itself to top level team once again. They do need to find some good young batsmen though.

Ya Sharma's got skill but is just inconsistent. I think he'll become a good batsman. Rahane will be good as well.

I agree WI is developing some good young talent and most important good pacers. I think Powell, Brathwaite and Thomas will end up being good batsmen at the international level as well.
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TimAus
June 21, 2012, 06:20 AM
The biggest domestic bully of all time I can think of was Graham Hick. Bangladesh really don't have any guys dominating domestic cricket with the bat, although some bowlers could be classed as domestic bullies.