PDA

View Full Version : New FP article: Time for a Spinner Hunt


AsifTheManRahman
July 12, 2012, 10:55 AM
Is spin our ultimate weapon? Is an SLA infested attack the way to go? Jeeshan Mirza dwells on the significance of spin bowling in the context of Bangladesh cricket and whether a spin-heavy attack is indeed what we need to conquer the world.

In economics, the theory of comparative advantage explains a country should specialize in making and exporting goods and services that it can produce most efficiently. In a way this idea can also apply to sports like cricket. Every cricketing nation seems to have the ability to unearth talent in certain areas much more easily than others. India has the ability to produce run scoring machines, Pakistan unearths skillful swing bowlers with ease, South Africa is known for their world class all-rounders and fielders, while Australia has always been good with genuine fast bowlers. Bangladesh too seems to have the ability to produce a category of players with ease - slow left arm spinners (SLA’s).

More (http://banglacricket.com/html/features/article.php?item=573)

Zunaid
July 12, 2012, 10:58 AM
Very well written article. Love it.

MohammedC
July 12, 2012, 11:04 AM
First to share on BC's FB. Very good article.

zinatf
July 12, 2012, 11:18 AM
Very nicely written and well analysed.

KaaL-PurusH
July 12, 2012, 11:43 AM
very well written :)

ahnaf
July 12, 2012, 11:53 AM
Well written Zee bhai..:)
<br />Posted via BC Mobile Edition (Opera Mobile)

Zunaid
July 12, 2012, 11:56 AM
Well written Zee bhai..:)
<br />Posted via BC Mobile Edition (Opera Mobile)

Jee... Not Zee.

Rifat
July 12, 2012, 04:39 PM
Amazing Article, Congratulations Jeeshan for a top class article. Alhamdulillah! Made my day :clap:
I loved the example of the Asia Cup final(Shahadat Hossain)!

BANFAN
July 12, 2012, 07:07 PM
Very well thought and nicely written... Weldone GB/ZM/JM

Zeeshan
July 12, 2012, 07:17 PM
Very well thought and nicely written... Weldone GB/ZM/JM

No seriously, it's Jeesh (http://banglacricket.com/alochona/member.php?u=991) from Colombo, Sri Lanka. And it was really written well by him.

BANFAN
July 12, 2012, 07:30 PM
No seriously, it's Jeesh (http://banglacricket.com/alochona/member.php?u=991) from Colombo, Sri Lanka. And it was really written well by him.

Really !! Thanks, didn't read the Author part before. I thought there was only one ZEESHAN/JEESHAN in BC...:)


Well that post can still Be valid for JM; "To whom it may concern". ..:)

Gowza
July 12, 2012, 07:37 PM
not many spinners are on the level of murali and warne, strike rates of under 60 in tests as spinners, not many can compare to that. saeed ajmal is potentially a great, his first few test matches weren't so good but since then he's been right up there, swann over 44 matches still has a strike rate of under 60 so he's up there to, and herath has been fairly decent to since murali's retirement.

a spinner hunt would be awesome!

BengaliPagol
July 12, 2012, 08:17 PM
fantastic read. It made all of us realise that forcing to put 3 pacers is not the way to go and we need to accumulate our strengths instead of risking the options of Shafiul etc.

playmaker
July 12, 2012, 10:14 PM
We desperately need some good off-spinners and leggies. seeing the dying art in leggies, even a quality off-spinner would do nowadays. We really need an off-spinner who can bowl like hafeez or johan botha, swann and ajmal are too good for now.

RazabQ
July 12, 2012, 11:30 PM
Nice. Well put argument for having a spinner hunt but dunno if I agree that we should go with 3 spinners. Our "part-timers" aka Riyadh is a capable bowler.

BengaliPagol
July 12, 2012, 11:59 PM
Nice. Well put argument for having a spinner hunt but dunno if I agree that we should go with 3 spinners. Our "part-timers" aka Riyadh is a capable bowler.

The problem is the captain doesnt let Riyad bowl that much. I say the bowling department in Odis should be

5. Shakib Al Hasan
7. Mahmudullah
8. Mashrafe Mortaza
9. Abdur Razzak
10. Elias Sunny
11. Nazmul/Rubel

4 spinners, 2 pacers. We would absolutely choke the opposition.

Rifat
July 12, 2012, 11:59 PM
We should definitely always have a varied bowling attack, a surprise bowling attack, depending on the pitch and conditions, we can go with three pacers or two pacers.

Gowza
July 13, 2012, 12:11 AM
I think in one-dayers mash, nazmul and rubel are a solid attack with shaking and razzak/sunny. If we take only 2 pacers we need to gave a pace all rounder in the side

BengaliPagol
July 13, 2012, 01:29 AM
Its convinced me that from the article we dont need to have extra pacers which isnt our strong suit. I think 2 pacers is good because we need to set up a strategy to win the game. Having more spinners in the team will make us a stronger team because the spin department is our strong suit. No more following the rest of the other countries and having 3 pacers. Lets mix it up and play our own style of cricket. The style in which we are strong at. The more spinners the better.

jeesh
July 13, 2012, 03:14 AM
Thank you all for your kind feedback and comments. To win we need to utilize our strengths, spin is one of them. Just reminisce about our attack featuring Rafique, Razzak and Shakib in WC 2007. We even strangled India. http://www.espncricinfo.com/wc2007/engine/current/match/247464.html, http://www.espncricinfo.com/wc2007/engine/match/247490.html

Having two good seamers is good enough. The tendency to think we need 3 pacers is a mindset issue which we need to overcome. Even if the wicket is conducive for pace bowling, the limited skills of our pacers mean they will never be able to exploit it (Anyway it is rare to see three seamers finish their quota of 30 overs). So we might as well play three quality spinners. Actually we are lucky because Shakib and is an allrounder we will be able to field such a combination. If you are still not convinced learn from Pakistan. They have enough of pace bowlers to play 3-4 of them in a game. But why wont they do that? Because they know other teams will stutter against their spin- Ajmal, Abdur Rehman, Hafeez, Afridi. So they play 3 spinners in most games-ODI, Test or T20.

So maybe this is a lineup we should focus on developing-if we want to win i.e, not just compete

Tamim
Imrul
Jahurul/Rakibul/Junaid
Mushfiq
Shakib Specialist Spinner
Mahmudullah Part Time Spinner
Nasir Part Time Spinner
Mashrafe Mortaza
Abdur Razzak Specialist Spinner
Elias Sunny/Shuvo/Any Other Prospect Specialist Spinner
Nazmul Hossain/Rubel Hossain/Shafiul Islam

Pretty strong lineup dont you think?

Gowza
July 13, 2012, 04:38 AM
thing about pakistan is that afridi and hafeez wouldn't be selected as specialist spinners, they are allrounders. rehman has a horrible ODI record, ajmal is great. but you should also take note that ajmal/hafeez are offies, afridi a leggy and rehman is an SLA, much variety, much more variety than 3 SLA's.

Nadim
July 13, 2012, 04:46 AM
Great read.

A Pakistani leg spin legend once said, “A leg spinner is like a tree. You can't expect it to give you food and shade straight away. You must nurture it, protect it and eventually it will yield what you are looking for.”

Quote of the article to me. those who was bashing about Noor Hossain after the game against Afghan U19 should come and read this for a bit. Noor is the ONLY leg spinner in the country who have the potential to play in INT cricket and should be nature and protect properly even he fails every now and then.

jeesh
July 13, 2012, 04:55 AM
thing about pakistan is that afridi and hafeez wouldn't be selected as specialist spinners, they are allrounders. rehman has a horrible ODI record, ajmal is great. but you should also take note that ajmal/hafeez are offies, afridi a leggy and rehman is an SLA, much variety, much more variety than 3 SLA's.
Point taken Gowza. Which is why it is so important we find a quality LS or an OS. But its easier said than done. India has three good leg spinners in Chawla, Mishra, Sharma. None of them have been able to break into the team. It will take time, hope Saqlain Mushtaq can add a lot of value.

playmaker
July 13, 2012, 05:20 AM
Thank you all for your kind feedback and comments. To win we need to utilize our strengths, spin is one of them. Just reminisce about our attack featuring Rafique, Razzak and Shakib in WC 2007. We even strangled India. http://www.espncricinfo.com/wc2007/engine/current/match/247464.html, http://www.espncricinfo.com/wc2007/engine/match/247490.html

Having two good seamers is good enough. The tendency to think we need 3 pacers is a mindset issue which we need to overcome. Even if the wicket is conducive for pace bowling, the limited skills of our pacers mean they will never be able to exploit it (Anyway it is rare to see three seamers finish their quota of 30 overs). So we might as well play three quality spinners. Actually we are lucky because Shakib and is an allrounder we will be able to field such a combination. If you are still not convinced learn from Pakistan. They have enough of pace bowlers to play 3-4 of them in a game. But why wont they do that? Because they know other teams will stutter against their spin- Ajmal, Abdur Rehman, Hafeez, Afridi. So they play 3 spinners in most games-ODI, Test or T20.

So maybe this is a lineup we should focus on developing-if we want to win i.e, not just compete

Tamim
Imrul
Jahurul/Rakibul/Junaid
Mushfiq
Shakib Specialist Spinner
Mahmudullah Part Time Spinner
Nasir Part Time Spinner
Mashrafe Mortaza
Abdur Razzak Specialist Spinner
Elias Sunny/Shuvo/Any Other Prospect Specialist Spinner
Nazmul Hossain/Rubel Hossain/Shafiul Islam

Pretty strong lineup dont you think?

Ans: NO

Zunaid
July 13, 2012, 06:35 AM
Ans: NO

Why? .........

al Furqaan
July 13, 2012, 07:40 AM
I like the idea of plying a spin heavy attack and choking teams in limited overs affairs. However for tests unless we have wicket taking spinners no point in playing them. Still for longer version shakib, sunny, enamul sound good while noor develops

BANFAN
July 13, 2012, 07:56 AM
.......

So maybe this is a lineup we should focus on developing-if we want to win i.e, not just compete

Tamim
Imrul/Ash
Jahurul/Rakibul/Junaid
Mushfiq
Shakib Specialist Spinner
Mahmudullah - Specialist Spinner
Nasir Part Time Spinner
Mashrafe Mortaza
Zia - Medium Pace Allrounder
Abdur Razzak Specialist Spinner/Elias Sunny/Shuvo/Any Other Prospect Specialist Spinner
Nazmul Hossain/Rubel Hossain/Shafiul Islam

Pretty strong lineup dont you think?

Now, There are 3 specialist spinners and 2 part time spinners if you include Ash. While we have only 2 specialist pacers and no part timers... So the pace department is too vulnerable. Bowling will look too one dimensional. If we can have one part time medium pacer/ Alrounder, that would make this line up stronger. Because he can be an option if another pacer has a bad day or injury during match.

While I completely agree that we should have 3 specialist spinner and spin should be our main attack to win matches. Bcoz that's what we have in abundance.

Zia could be that Medium pace Allrounder.... Kapil dev of the team...:) Mullah is as good as Razzak with ball, if not better at times. He should be used as a specialist spinner. So it's between Razzak/Sunny to chose the third specialist spinner.

Gowza
July 13, 2012, 08:30 AM
Now, There are 3 specialist spinners and 2 part time spinners if you include Ash. While we have only 2 specialist pacers and no part timers... So the pace department is too vulnerable. Bowling will look too one dimensional. If we can have one part time medium pacer/ Alrounder, that would make this line up stronger. Because he can be an option if another pacer has a bad day or injury during match.

While I completely agree that we should have 3 specialist spinner and spin should be our main attack to win matches. Bcoz that's what we have in abundance.

Zia could be that Medium pace Allrounder.... Kapil dev of the team...:) Mullah is as good as Razzak with ball, if not better at times. He should be used as a specialist spinner. So it's between Razzak/Sunny to chose the third specialist spinner.

this is what i meant when i said if we only take 2 specialist pacers going in you need an allrounder or one of your batsmen to be a capable enough pacer to fill in if needed.

BengaliPagol
July 13, 2012, 08:51 AM
thats the mindset issue guys. We dont need a pacer allrounder. Just stick with Nazmul/Mashrafe and Rubel as pacers and all out spin attazk can be Shakib, Mahmudullah, Razzak and Elias.

BengaliPagol
July 13, 2012, 08:52 AM
Ans: NO

How about you name us a better lineup.

jeesh
July 13, 2012, 09:15 AM
One reason why we were successful in 2007 guys, even in the bouncy wickets of WI. Unfortunately our batting let us down, otherwise we could have upset a few more teams.

But i agree it ll be good to have a pace bowling all rounder in the squad. Sri Lanka benefits from three of them-Maharoof, Mathews, and now Thisira Perera. We can rotate the third spinner with the pace bowling all rounder depending on wicket and opposition. If Saqlain con work on the bowling of Nasir and Mahmudullah then we could have a very competitive squad-coach and captain will have a lot of options

BANFAN
July 13, 2012, 09:27 AM
thats the mindset issue guys. We dont need a pacer allrounder. Just stick with Nazmul/Mashrafe and Rubel as pacers and all out spin attazk can be Shakib, Mahmudullah, Razzak and Elias.

It's not the mind set issue; what do you do if Mash or any pacer gets injured in first delivery or anytime early in his spell?? Or a pacer has a seriously bad day?? Then it becomes all spinners ... Even if the spin is your main weapon, you need pacers to unsettle them and not allow them to get set with spinners..you genuinely need a backup pacer even with two specialists... Or it will be like gambling..

Agree to Gowza and Jeesh here.

jeesh
July 13, 2012, 09:37 AM
To be honest BANFAN sometimes our spinners put more fear in opposition batsmen than our pace bowlers. Usually our pace bowlers get unsettled by batsmen, not the other way round :D. Sometimes its a treat for opposition batsmen to bat against guys like Shafiul and Shahadat. But anyway get your point. It is essential we develop Zia or find someone similar. Azhar Mahmood, Abdul Razzaq, Angelo Matthews, Flintoff, Chigumbara, Bravo, Albie Morkel, Oram etc add(ed) a lot of value to their teams.

RazabQ
July 13, 2012, 11:51 AM
jeesh, the Caribbean wickets are hardly bouncy these days. They are low and slow. Hence the success of spinners in the Carib first class and the emergence of spinners such as Narine. The "choke 'em" approach is a negative, easy-win. It only works on certain pitches, some of the time. It's not for nothing that even with the great spin attack of the 70s and 80s, India did not start winning away matches until their spinners were complemented by decent pace attacks.

Yes the Razzak, Rafique, Shak attack was very effective but it wasn't formidable - as in inducing fear in the opposition. Annoyance would be the more appropriate emotion I'd posit.

Ian - who is a better evaluator of bowling attacks than you or I - has waxed poetic on the many reasons why BD needs to field 3 pacers in the team and to challenge our pipeline to make that possible.

To recap:

I agree with you that we need a spinner hunt. Other than Shak, I don't rate any of our spinners as "attacking".
I agree with you that Noor Hossain _has_ to be nurtured. Leggies are rare.
I don't agree that a 3-spinner attack, given the next WC is in Australia, is our best investment. Especially given we have very good spin-bowling all-rounders. And it is absolutely the wrong call for our Test attack - whenever we get the rare chance to play one.

Mash, Rubel, Nazmul, Shafiul, Rabbi, Ziaur, Shahadat, Abu Hossain - 3 of these guys will have to be primed and good to go for next WC and playing in every match. (Except Darwin perhaps)

AsifTheManRahman
July 13, 2012, 12:05 PM
I do agree with Razab bhai here. A spin-heavy attack may be the way to go on slow, low wickets in ODIs, but we do need good pacers to be able to win ODIs in conditions alien to us and Tests anywhere in the world. We need the sort of penetration that only raw pace and /or swing can provide and risk the chance of fielding a very one-dimensional attack by packing it with spinners. Drying up the runs and choking the opposition won't always work, especially in Tests, where batsmen have all the damn time in the world.

Once Rubel is back, Nazmul finds a father who won't treat him like he's someone else's and Mash mans the heck up, we will have a decent pace attack. We do, however, still need another really good spinner or two. Elias might make it in the longest version, but too early to tell. Perhaps Enamul?

al Furqaan
July 13, 2012, 07:23 PM
I do agree with Razab bhai here. A spin-heavy attack may be the way to go on slow, low wickets in ODIs, but we do need good pacers to be able to win ODIs in conditions alien to us and Tests anywhere in the world. We need the sort of penetration that only raw pace and /or swing can provide and risk the chance of fielding a very one-dimensional attack by packing it with spinners. Drying up the runs and choking the opposition won't always work, especially in Tests, where batsmen have all the damn time in the world.

Once Rubel is back, Nazmul finds a father who won't treat him like he's someone else's and Mash mans the heck up, we will have a decent pace attack. We do, however, still need another really good spinner or two. Elias might make it in the longest version, but too early to tell. Perhaps Enamul?

Our Test pace attack looks scary. And thats not a good thing. Only Nazmul looks competent. Its amazing how Rubel with his pace and reverse swing has such a poor average and strike rate. I hope he improves as he's done in ODIs. I've lost hope on Shahadat as his average and strike rates continue to skyrocket. Robiul doesn't look like he merits another shot, but I'd like to give Shafiul another look. I hope Mash can play again, and maybe he could retire from limited overs to extend a test career. I have a feeling pace-wise, we will very soon be forced to turn to Rabbi, Abul, and Taskin in Tests.

By contrast our ODI pace attack seems very settled and productive.

jeesh
July 13, 2012, 10:29 PM
Its all about strategy. As the underdog you need to do unconventional things to win.

Those who are familiar with basketball maybe know about the full court press which a lot of weaker teams employ to defeat the stronger sides. Check this excellent article by Malcolm Gladwell on David Beats Goliath (http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/05/11/090511fa_fact_gladwell). This is unconventional, and not something you will get in the coaching books, or see other teams do

In cricket you also get such strategies. For example: How Sri Lanka won the WC in 1996 by changing the nature of game (First 15 overs bashing). NZ used to bowl off spinner Deepak Patel from 2nd over-a trend we see a lot of teams following these days.

Thats what he have to keep in mind. Sometimes the conventional strategies wont work for a weaker team like us. So if it means playing 2 spinners or 3 spinners or even 4 spinners-whatever makes us distinct and hard to play and what results in a win-thats the important thing. We tend to think 3 SLA's will make our attack one dimensional. But would you rather have 3 SLA's who only give 120 runs in ODI's in 30 overs or 2 SLA's and a pacer who will give 140 runs in 30 overs (Sometimes the pacers dont even fill their quota, and part timers have to fill in). These extra 20 runs often make a big difference.

Anyway great debate. Whatever lineup, combination as long as we win i am happy. Thanks all again for your feedback. Appreciated. Go tigers!

BengaliPagol
July 13, 2012, 10:30 PM
Maybe i should start bowling leg spin to get into the Bangladeshi team.

all_rounder
July 14, 2012, 12:17 AM
What happened to Enamul Haque Jr? Does he have the potential to be better then Razzak?

Gowza
July 14, 2012, 04:07 AM
What happened to Enamul Haque Jr? Does he have the potential to be better then Razzak?

Had chances already in the national team and didn't do so well but has done well domestically, but he always did that. Elias sunny has done well the chances he has been given, if he is given a permanent spot in the team I reckon he'll be one of the best in the world in a couple of years

kalpurush
July 14, 2012, 04:50 AM
So maybe this is a lineup we should focus on developing-if we want to win i.e, not just compete

Tamim
Imrul
Jahurul/Rakibul/Junaid
Mushfiq
Shakib Specialist Spinner
Mahmudullah Part Time Spinner
Nasir Part Time Spinner
Mashrafe Mortaza
Abdur Razzak Specialist Spinner
Elias Sunny/Shuvo/Any Other Prospect Specialist Spinner
Nazmul Hossain/Rubel Hossain/Shafiul Islam

Pretty strong lineup dont you think?
Yes. For ODIs though.

I would replaced Imrul with either Mominul /Anamul or some one else and remove Razzak from Test team though.

For T20, Ash, Alok, Zia, Nazimuddin, Shabbir would be considered as well.


BTW, nice article :up:
Though, I still think we need quality "pacers" to win matches! :)

jeesh
July 14, 2012, 10:09 PM
What happened to Enamul Haque Jr? Does he have the potential to be better then Razzak?
Richard McIness had once said this guy could become one of the best in the world. He had an exciting first few matches. Picked up wickets against Zimbabwe gave trouble to the English. After that something happened to him.

He used to be able to turn the ball quite a bit. He used the bowling crease very well (Sometimes delivery point was wide, sometimes he bowled close to the wicket). Had a decent arm ball. Then the lull period. Fortunately he had a good BPL and had a bit of success in domestic cricket. Maybe Saqlain and McIness can help him out. But BCB needs to give him a long run in the team. They tend to pick him, then drop him, pick him, then drop him. This wont work. At least in test matches this guy should be selected ahead of Elias and Razzak. There is still time for him to develop

deshimon
July 15, 2012, 05:15 PM
In Test matches Enamul is always effective. He was the youngest bowler who took 12 wickets in Test match. It happened our first test win ever in 2005 against Zimbabwe at Chittagong. He was rewarded as man of the series. But unfortunately he was dropped next series due to his miserable record in abroad.

Gowza
July 15, 2012, 06:45 PM
In Test matches Enamul is always effective. He was the youngest bowler who took 12 wickets in Test match. It happened our first test win ever in 2005 against Zimbabwe at Chittagong. He was rewarded as man of the series. But unfortunately he was dropped next series due to his miserable record in abroad.

14 matches, strike rate of 77.7, average of 39.24 says that he isn't always effective in test matches. has potential but hasn't realised it at the highest level yet.

jeesh
July 15, 2012, 10:34 PM
Something happened to him-personal issue, mindset problem, lack of confidence sth. He stopped doing a lot of things which made him successful during his under 19 and early international days. Simple example is how he used the angles the point of delivery-with which he always kept the batsmen guessing. Sometimes he bowled wide of the crease, sometimes closer.

This is a huge problem in Bangladeshi cricket. Youngsters have lot of talent, potential (Maybe they are even better than their counterparts in other countries at 17, 18, 19). The problem is they dont develop mentally. This is where someone like McIness can come and make a huge difference. McIness played a huge role in Enamul's development. Ali De Winter and Shaun Williams were also impressed by him. But after they all left we lacked a mentor to guide them on a full time basis. BCB has made a fantastic move with McIness and Saqlain who will definitely make a difference in the area.

RazabQ
July 15, 2012, 10:48 PM
When you can bowl all the deliveries, sometimes you try to bowl all the deliveries. In one over. That's what happened at Enam. Watching him bowl in the later years, as a fellow SLA, I got the sense that he wasn't operating on a rhythm. Every ball he was aiming for the magic delivery. Hitting the right areas and building up pressure is not just the catch phrase of ball-rollers like Rafique. Even Swann and Warne got their wickets by setting batsman up. Each ball in the same spot. One slower, one quicker per over perhaps. With the propensity to bowl differently each ball, he lost his action a little bit, and the loss of action, he lost his "rip". If I were Enam, here's what I'd do
I'd go to the nets and bowl 2 hours of solid, orthodox SLA, aiming for off and middle and hitting the top of the bails.
Every ball.
No variation in pace, or angles or lengths. Video that sucker.

If he is able to do that for couple of hours then I would get in the routine where he practices 45 minutes of that, 30 min of variation and then again 15 minutes of the stock delivery.
Do that for a week. Get Nasu or the analyst to come back and see if there is any change to his action for stock delivery. That baseline has to be rooted.

If all good then bring in batsmen to bowl after 1 more week.

In 2-3 weeks he'd have his mojo back.

BengaliPagol
July 16, 2012, 12:24 AM
^sounds easy.

RazabQ
July 16, 2012, 12:43 AM
try the 2 hrs first and see how easy it is :)

BANFAN
July 16, 2012, 03:19 PM
...".........".....:
Though, I still think we need quality "pacers" to win matches! :)

We definitely need. But the point is, till we have those quality pacers, we must have a spin focused attack, since our spinners are much more effective than our pacers...no point loading the team with three pacers leaving out a better bowler, because he is spinner.

jeesh
July 16, 2012, 10:51 PM
Easy example- see what happened in the first 2 matches in European tour. Even in the pace friendly wickets our pacers were easy (Except Mashrafe) to play. But our spinners kept it tight-Sunny, Razzak, Mahumudullah.

Thats the point i have tried to make in the article. Our pacers except 1-2 dont have the quality to do well even in green or bouncy wickets. So we d rather play spinners. Time and time again this will happen.

RazabQ
July 16, 2012, 11:24 PM
Jeesh, look at the Irish bowling. They also used at least 3 spinners in both match and they bowled a fair # of overs and some of them had decent figured. I'd hazard there was plenty in it for the spinners (bounce and going by the texture of the pitch from pics, some turn too). Not having seen visual evidence I am not ready concede yet :)

RazabQ
July 16, 2012, 11:34 PM
Plus with Shak, Razzak, Riyadh and Nasir and a bit of Ash thrown in, we have 5 viable spin options. We need to have at least 3 pacers from that perspective. Zia is getting the Farhaz Reza slot to show what he can do.

WarWolf
July 17, 2012, 03:41 AM
Good work Jee.

BANFAN
July 17, 2012, 03:49 AM
Plus with Shak, Razzak, Riyadh and Nasir and a bit of Ash thrown in, we have 5 viable spin options. We need to have at least 3 pacers from that perspective. Zia is getting the Farhaz Reza slot to show what he can do.

Zia isn't getting in as a specialist pacer, rather a part timer.. That much back up pace department must have even if we play with 2 specialist pacers.

Gowza
July 17, 2012, 04:21 AM
that's the thing, if you go with 2 specialist pacers they have to be quality and turn up everyday otherwise you need a 3rd pace option even if they are just a part timer, they need to be at least reasonable though.

the fact is BD are very fortunate to have shakib, a guy who is good enough of a batsman to be in the top 5 and a good enough bowler to basically be the #1 bowler it means BD should be able to take an extra bowling option. so we have shakib and sunny/razzak and 2 specialist pacers. that should be a definate, the final spot can then be decided on pitch, if it's a pacers pitch then take another pacer, if it's a spinners one then go with a spinner.

in one-dayers and t20s we can probably take shakib, sunny and razzak into a match but in tests we can't, razzak has shown he's not a test match bowler. what it comes down to in tests is taking wickets, you have to take 20 wickets to win, so really whoever is the better wicket-taker should be that last spot. a spinner who can't take wickets in test will be just as much of a liability (perhaps more) than a pacer who can't take wickets. why perhaps more? because the opposition will probably score slower against them meaning they'll take longer to get their runs and thus declare leaving less time for BD to chase the runs (even thought that's a really bad way of thinking and i realise this means more chance of drawing but we want to win not draw).

and shahadat is not an option he has a test match strike rate of 71, he is not a wicket-taking bowler, he might take a haul of wickets on occassion but it's balanced out by his overall high strike rate. i'd take a bowler who takes 3 wickets every match over a bowler who takes no wickets for 5 matches then a 5 wicket haul in the next match.

Rifat
July 18, 2012, 05:48 AM
Bangladesh Spin options:

Shakib
Razzak
Elias Sunny
Riyad
Nasir
Ashraful


Alhamdulillah! All of them have proven to be effective many times, you have a lot of variety already here. It should suffiseth me thinks...

deshimon
July 18, 2012, 07:15 AM
We don't need more than one specialist spinners. Because we have Shakib for any type of matches. Ryad also effective in all types but he isn't used enough in Test matches. He even got five wickets in a Test match innings against West Indies at his debut in 2009. Nasir also joined the team as a alrounder and effective as well. Ashraful's leg spin can give break through. So only one can be selected from Razzak or Sunny.
On te other hand Ziaur can support the pacers with his medium. And only one pacer should be taken as a partner of Mashrafi.

jeesh
July 18, 2012, 10:40 AM
That ll make a balanced side-if we can find a big hitting pace bowling allrounder-not sure if Ziaur is there yet. And also if we can work on the skills of Mahmudullah and Nasir. Its never too late to develop. Spin bowling is a lot to do with mindset and approach. If one of our two off spinners can perform like Hafeez then we have a very decentlineup.

BANFAN
July 18, 2012, 04:47 PM
that's the thing, if you go with 2 specialist pacers they have to be quality and turn up everyday otherwise you need a 3rd pace option even if they are just a part timer, they need to be at least reasonable though.

Even if you have 2 quality specialist pacers, still you need to have a pace/medium pace part timer preferably an all rounder. Because you need to also cater for injury during Mach, Off days even of a quality pacer, too pace friendly conditions etc Question here is about a 3rd specialist pacer or a third part time pacer.

the fact is BD are very fortunate to have shakib, a guy who is good enough of a batsman to be in the top 5 and a good enough bowler to basically be the #1 bowler it means BD should be able to take an extra bowling option. so we have shakib and sunny/razzak and 2 specialist pacers. that should be a definate, the final spot can then be decided on pitch, if it's a pacers pitch then take another pacer, if it's a spinners one then go with a spinner.

That's the main premise of this discussion. I feel even if its a pace friendly pitch still we need to go with above setup. Because our pacers can hardly use the conditions and the third specialist pacer will just be a waste of a position, while the third spinner is still expected to do better than him. While the MP all rounder won't do that bad than a third specialist pacer with ball and be usefull with the bat.

in one-dayers and t20s we can probably take shakib, sunny and razzak into a match but in tests we can't, razzak has shown he's not a test match bowler. what it comes down to in tests is taking wickets, you have to take 20 wickets to win, so really whoever is the better wicket-taker should be that last spot. a spinner who can't take wickets in test will be just as much of a liability (perhaps more) than a pacer who can't take wickets. why perhaps more? because the opposition will probably score slower against them meaning they'll take longer to get their runs and thus declare leaving less time for BD to chase the runs (even thought that's a really bad way of thinking and i realise this means more chance of drawing but we want to win not draw).

We have a lots of wicket taking spinning options to replace razzak in test matches, than an additional specialist pacer as the 5 th bowler.

and shahadat is not an option he has a test match strike rate of 71, he is not a wicket-taking bowler, he might take a haul of wickets on occassion but it's balanced out by his overall high strike rate. i'd take a bowler who takes 3 wickets every match over a bowler who takes no wickets for 5 matches then a 5 wicket haul in the next match.

I would love to have that too... Theoretically that makes good sense. Practically we don't have a pacer who will take 3 wickets every match, so we have to take a pacer who make occasional but miraculous performance and that gives us a fair chance to win the match.... Any way we aren't able to create a winning situation even once in a blue moon. So that occasional performer can create that situation once in a while at least. So at this moment I will go for the later, the best type currently available....

Zeeshan
July 18, 2012, 05:20 PM
I dream of our Murali, Mendis and Warne in one team..

Well done, Sunny!

jeesh
July 18, 2012, 09:54 PM
3 spinners anyone? Hehe.

RazabQ
July 18, 2012, 10:10 PM
touche jeesh :) But shobai to ar Irish na.

jeesh
July 19, 2012, 04:32 AM
Yesterday we played an interesting combination a lot of us didnt anticipate.

Batsman
Batsman
All Rounder Spin
Keeper Batsman
All Rounder Spin
All Rounder Spin
All Rounder Pace
Bowler Pace
Bowler Spin
Bowler Spin
Bowler Pace

Its good for T20. We just have to sacrifice 1 bowler or 1 all rounder for a batsmen in ODI's. But we can work on Zia's batting, and maybe of Mashrafe and Elias (Who avgs 23 in FC) this could even work in ODIs

Gowza
July 19, 2012, 05:17 AM
Yesterday we played an interesting combination a lot of us didnt anticipate.

Batsman
Batsman
All Rounder Spin
Keeper Batsman
All Rounder Spin
All Rounder Spin
All Rounder Pace
Bowler Pace
Bowler Spin
Bowler Spin
Bowler Pace

Its good for T20. We just have to sacrifice 1 bowler or 1 all rounder for a batsmen in ODI's. But we can work on Zia's batting, and maybe of Mashrafe and Elias (Who avgs 23 in FC) this could even work in ODIs

let elias focus on his bowling for now, he's doing great, don't want anything interfering atm, when he's more experienced and has put in the great performances and has proven he can handle it all long term then maybe work on his batting, atm he gets in as a specialist bowler, we have others to bat.

jeesh
September 24, 2012, 10:16 PM
Good 7 wicket hall for Enamul Haque Jnr. When on song the guy is the best spinner in the country. But the trouble is getting him on song. Too inconsistent. Still he is 25 and has over 300 first class wickets. We still have time to sort him out. At least he could be a part of our test team.

Tiger444
September 24, 2012, 10:22 PM
Good 7 wicket hall for Enamul Haque Jnr. When on song the guy is the best spinner in the country. But the trouble is getting him on song. Too inconsistent. Still he is 25 and has over 300 first class wickets. We still have time to sort him out. At least he could be a part of our test team.

He's definitely earned his spot for the Test team against the WI. Razzak is just in limited overs games so that helps Enamul.

jeesh
September 24, 2012, 11:47 PM
This is debatable but i feel technically Enamul is the best spinner in the country. Most of our SLA's wait for the batsman to make mistakes. Enamul is a rare type who can actually force the batsman to make mistakes. Big difference between the two approaches. The guy can extract a lot of turn, has a good arm ball. Needs to add some variation, maybe the one which turns the other way.

At Under 19 level, the guy was the best bowler/spinner in the tournament. RM had said this guy has the potential to become one of the best spinners in the world. Would be beneficial for Enamul to work with the likes of RM and Saqlain. Still plenty of time. Guys like Swann, Herath, Ajmal, Botha have all bloomed in their late 20's.

jeesh
September 24, 2012, 11:53 PM
This is what he can do what so many of our other bowlers cant

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE2tdQP9U9Q

Zeeshan
September 24, 2012, 11:58 PM
Absolutely Jeesh bro. Debatable. I haven't compared stats of Shakib with Elias yet but in terms of hustling wickets and runs and performing when it matters Shakib would outperform Alias "Sydney Bristow" Sunny anyday.

Good dig, but then again had you not dug it up, it wud'uv remained in obscurity and thus has no leverage in terms of Tiger's uphill rising to upcoming Superstardom in World Cricket

SS
September 25, 2012, 01:53 AM
We have all bits and pieces spinners like Shakib, Riyad in the team for their all round capabilities, but Raz and Sunny was brought in as specialist spinners but they sometimes contribute by taking wickets but still not effective like Ajmal or hafeez.

Gowza
September 25, 2012, 05:11 AM
We have all bits and pieces spinners like Shakib, Riyad in the team for their all round capabilities, but Raz and Sunny was brought in as specialist spinners but they sometimes contribute by taking wickets but still not effective like Ajmal or hafeez.

think it's harsh to call shakib a bits and pieces spinner, he's a genuine allrounder and is one of the best spinners in tests and ODIs. sunny hasn't been around long enough to figure out, he's had some great performances and some just ok ones. raz is a ODI and t20 spinner only.

also ajmal is the best spinner in the world atm by a margin, so tough to compare the average spinner to him, most won't get to his standard.

jeesh
September 25, 2012, 06:41 AM
Rafique had tipped Mosharraf Hossain Rubel as his successor. He was actually pretty decent until his silly decision to retire to play for ICL. In that time Shakib has established himself as our number 1 spin bowler. He has surged ahead, and like Gowza said is way ahead of our other spinners. BCB now seems to be keen on developing Elias Sunny-which is fair considering the guys impressive start. Razzak should be the other choice in ODI/T20's while we should try Enamul as third choice in tests.

After that Arafat Sunny, Shuvo, Saqlain Sajib, Nabil Samad. Unfortunately its all SLA's. This is why Saqlain needs to spend time with guys like Sohag Gazi, Noor Hossain. Unless we add variety to our attack we will remain very predictable and one dimensional

jeesh
September 27, 2012, 11:39 PM
One clear outcome from World Cup T20-we need to improve our variety in spin bowling. BCB seems to be missing the trick. They have picked Enamul Jnr and Saqlain Sajib for the A team. Its true these two deserve to be picked-they are the next 2 best spinners in line. But we should take a chance with guys like Sohag Gazi and Noor Hossain. Unless we take a chance with OS and LS, we will never get.

Sri Lanka for instance has taken a massive risk in playing Akila Dananjaya. He hasnt even played a FC match. But the guy could end up huge spin prospect for Sri Lanka. SL may not have a Murali but they have three potent OS in Senanayake, Randiv and Akila. They have a quality SLA in Herath. A good underrated leggie in form of Kaushal Lokuarachchi. And then the mysterious Ajantha Mendis. So talk about variety in spin.

BCB is just not getting it. Forget short term success with WI. Take a chance with offies and leggies.

Gowza
September 27, 2012, 11:44 PM
Yes guys like sohag, mahmudul and nur also need chances to develop. We have good SLAs but the other varieties need to be ready if we need to introduce variety so they definitely need to be given experience and development to.

Gowza
September 27, 2012, 11:46 PM
One clear outcome from World Cup T20-we need to improve our variety in spin bowling. BCB seems to be missing the trick. They have picked Enamul Jnr and Saqlain Sajib for the A team. Its true these two deserve to be picked-they are the next 2 best spinners in line. But we should take a chance with guys like Sohag Gazi and Noor Hossain. Unless we take a chance with OS and LS, we will never get.

Sri Lanka for instance has taken a massive risk in playing Akila Dananjaya. He hasnt even played a FC match. But the guy could end up huge spin prospect for Sri Lanka. SL may not have a Murali but they have three potent OS in Senanayake, Randiv and Akila. They have a quality SLA in Herath. A good underrated leggie in form of Kaushal Lokuarachchi. And then the mysterious Ajantha Mendis. So talk about variety in spin.

BCB is just not getting it. Forget short term success with WI. Take a chance with offies and leggies.

S prasanna is another good leg spin prospect for SL.

Tiger444
September 28, 2012, 08:43 AM
Well said Jeesh bhai. Sohag and Noor should be in the team. We need variety in our team. We should continue to develop them so they can come in to the national team and add variety.

Gowza
September 29, 2012, 11:26 PM
Sohag has basically just just as well as any of the SLAs in domestics, plus he's had a couple of good innings with the bat so it's really a no brainer to select him for A team duties due to variety reasons but also due to performance.

BANFAN
September 30, 2012, 03:48 PM
think it's harsh to call shakib a bits and pieces spinner, he's a genuine allrounder and is one of the best spinners in tests and ODIs. sunny hasn't been around long enough to figure out, he's had some great performances and some just ok ones. raz is a ODI and t20 spinner only.

also ajmal is the best spinner in the world atm by a margin, so tough to compare the average spinner to him, most won't get to his standard.

I don't think SS meant Shakib in that. But to be frank, Shakib also struggles in dead pitches. Like he did in this T20 WC. But while all the other class spinners had better success against even the same teams in the same pitch.

Still he was our best, but the rest of the bunch surely are bits and pieces spinners. They only can cause some trouble when the pitch is helping them. When the pitch stops helping a class spinner causes trouble with his brain... Change of angle, pace variation, length variation etc etc but our bowlers spin/pace alike are brainless, just like our batsmen... Just leave Shakib and look at the team...