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Ian Pont
September 25, 2012, 01:26 PM
This is probably the 10th or 11th time I have mentioned this. I have written to the BCB about it. I have a approached two sponsors about it.

Let me state that setting up an "MRF" style pace academy is not only necessary but also an urgent situation.

Nothing is being done and it upsets me to think the work we did with Rubel, Shafiul, Nazmul and Shahadat in 2010 has come to nothing. We also identified other talent at that time and none of it has been brought through.

This suggests that nothing is being done to develop it.
I have made no progress with sponsors or the BCB on this subject.

My door remains wide open......

NoName
September 25, 2012, 01:38 PM
They've killed our bowlers =(

AsifTheManRahman
September 25, 2012, 01:51 PM
The BCB will get to it...in ten years, by when we'll already have lost to Armenia ten times - and as a result our Test status.

Rifat_02
September 25, 2012, 01:57 PM
Even the Afghan pacers are better than our pie chuckers currently. That Zadran guy bowled at 150kph apparently. We need some changes and fast, if BCB doesnt take necessary actions then us fans need to do something about it. Watching BD pacers bowl is a torture now

Aramaic
September 25, 2012, 03:08 PM
I agree, our pacers are pathetic!

We need to be aggressive in our approach to developing fast bowling and it needs to be done NOW

Without quality pacers, we will never be competitive in cricket

MohammedC
September 25, 2012, 03:11 PM
Not only fast bowling we need a bowling academy. But agree with Ian fast bowling academy is what we need.

mufi_02
September 25, 2012, 03:24 PM
MRF style pace academy haven't done anything for India.

Their main bowlers are -- Zaheer, Balaji, Dinda, Irfan Pathan, Umesh Yadav.
Their bench -- Praveen Kumar, Ishant Sharma, Varun Aaron.
In recent past -- Munaf Patel, Ashish Nehra, Sreesanth, RP Singh, VRV Singh, Ajit Agarkar.

Beside Zaheer, none of the bowlers are world class. They are very average. MRF is in place for 25 years and we are yet to see any amazing results.

So I think the solution lies somewhere else.

roman
September 25, 2012, 03:40 PM
Does Pakistan or SL have a fast bowling Academy? Just curious..

BCB should select a group of young pacers, let's say 7-8 of them and put them in a year long training camp under a well known fast bowling coach. In this time these players won't participate in domestic tournament. This one year should be dedicated to build them physically (Shafiul's physique is a joke) as well as mentally for bowling fast and aggressively. Send them to England, SA, Australia, expose them to some world class training facilities.
And for god's sake, build pitches that will encourage fast bowling. Tired of these slow and low dead pitches..

Like Shakib said before, we all know the cure but just don't take the medicine..

Ian Pont
September 25, 2012, 03:41 PM
MRF style pace academy haven't done anything for India.

Their main bowlers are -- Zaheer, Balaji, Dinda, Irfan Pathan, Umesh Yadav.
Their bench -- Praveen Kumar, Ishant Sharma, Varun Aaron.
In recent past -- Munaf Patel, Ashish Nehra, Sreesanth, RP Singh, VRV Singh, Ajit Agarkar.

Beside Zaheer, none of the bowlers are world class. They are very average. MRF is in place for 25 years and we are yet to see any amazing results.

So I think the solution lies somewhere else.

I agree that MRF hasn't produced bearing in mind the reported $1m a year it has spent for 25 years!. But I said MRF "STYLE" academy meaning a sponsored, stand alone, fully functioning pace academy where people can train specifically.

However, BD would accept any of the bowlers above I am sure

AsifTheManRahman
September 25, 2012, 03:42 PM
MRF style pace academy haven't done anything for India.

Their main bowlers are -- Zaheer, Balaji, Dinda, Irfan Pathan, Umesh Yadav.
Their bench -- Praveen Kumar, Ishant Sharma, Varun Aaron.
In recent past -- Munaf Patel, Ashish Nehra, Sreesanth, RP Singh, VRV Singh, Ajit Agarkar.

Beside Zaheer, none of the bowlers are world class. They are very average. MRF is in place for 25 years and we are yet to see any amazing results.
It may not have produced amazing results, but it has produced some results. We'll win more matches even if we end up getting bowlers of Dinda/Pathan/Balaji's standards. Instead, we have Abuls and Shafiuls, who won't even make it to an Indian state team. We will never know where we end up unless we try, unless we start somewhere. A pace academy is really the only way to go, or at least the only way to get started.

BrianLara7
September 25, 2012, 04:23 PM
This has been said many times before, there has NEVER been a great cricket team without atleast ONE outstanding pacer and a good one to support him. Australia- Lillee, thomson. Mcgrath, Gillespie, Fleming, Lee. West indies- Garner, Marshall, Holding. Ambrose, Walsh.
Even to a lesser extent (as a team) South Africa- Donald, Pollock.
We can have the best spin attack in the world, and still struggle (Pakistan) if we dont have a good pace attack.

al Furqaan
September 25, 2012, 04:25 PM
However, BD would accept any of the bowlers above I am sure

I think thats a bit insulting, Coach (and ATMR). Why do we need to import an Ishant Sharma when we have a Shahadat who will do the same job for 5% of Ishy's 900k IPL contract? What would we do with a Balaji?

We'll win more matches even if we end up getting bowlers of Dinda/Pathan/Balaji's standards. Instead, we have Abuls and Shafiuls, who won't even make it to an Indian state team. We will never know where we end up unless we try, unless we start somewhere. A pace academy is really the only way to go, or at least the only way to get started

Dinda/Pathan couldn't even stop Mushfiqur in 2012 Asia Cup - and that wasn't a one time thing, Indian bowlers have routinely gotten stick from no name BD sissies (Riyad, Naeem, etc) - whereas even North Korea women's 2nd XI strike bowler, Sum Il Baawla yorked him for a golden duck in the in that Fillipino warm-up T20 tourney where the BCB XI finished in 4th place, behind Phillipines Paddy Fielder XI, DRK Women's 2nd XI, Inner Mongolia Urban Resident's VIII (yes we were beaten by a 8-man squad from Mongolia :facepalm:), and we only finished ahead of Yeshiva Tel Aviv Maccabees on net run rate!

Dinda-Pathan would have ensured we lost even to that 5th string ehudi side!

Ajfar
September 25, 2012, 04:32 PM
You might not like what Dinda and Pathan brings to the table when you compare them to Steyn, Morkel, Watson, Malinga. But when you compare them to our pace attack, that attack is much better. You make it sound as if BD beats up on Indian pacers day in out. Other than that Asia cup win look back at some of the other games. Dinda, Pathan, Balaji or whatever Indian pace bowling line up they have it gets the job done more times than not. Thats what important. When their batsman put up enough run they are capable of going out there doing even if it means just enough to get the job done, sure they are not the best bowler in the world. But when you look at our pace bowling up, I don't see how that's an insult.

BANFAN
September 25, 2012, 04:36 PM
It may not have produced amazing results, but it has produced some results. We'll win more matches even if we end up getting bowlers of Dinda/Pathan/Balaji's standards. Instead, we have Abuls and Shafiuls, who won't even make it to an Indian state team. We will never know where we end up unless we try, unless we start somewhere. A pace academy is really the only way to go, or at least the only way to get started.

:up::up: there can be no arguments against a pace Academy...

al Furqaan
September 25, 2012, 04:37 PM
You might not like what Dinda and Pathan when you compare them to Steyn, Morkel, Watson, Malinga. But when you compare them to our pace attack, that attack is much better. You make it sound as if BD beats up on Indian pacers day in out. Other than that Asia cup win look back at some of the other games. Dinda, Pathan, Balaji or whatever Indian bowling line up they have it gets the job done more times than not. Thats what important. When their batsman put up enough run they are capable of going out there doing even if it means just enough to get the job done, sure they are not the best bowler in the world. But when you look at our pace bowling up, I don't see how tha's an insult.

No, apart from Zaheer who has developed to be a world class seam bowler in Tests, no Indian pacer has left us gasping ever. Yes, they've gotten the job done, but thats because their batsman have always given them 300+ runs to play with. By contrast, even Sri Lankan pacers have had more success.

Sh*t, even Brian Vitori has had more success from 3 matches against our batsman than all the Indian pacers in every series combined!

Sharma, Sreesanth, Nehra, Agarkar, Patel, Pathan, Dinda, Joginder... when did they ever trouble any of our batters? Please provide some scorecards?

I can predict exactly whats going to happen. We can come back to this thread 5 years, 10 years from and see.

Zaheer will end his Test career with 350 wickets at an average of ~32 at a strike rate of 60 flat. He'll be the best Indian pacer ever after Kapil. Ishant will stick around the periphery because of lack of alternatives and because of raw potential which will never be cooked. He'll play the odd Test every series and will finish with 200-250 wickets at an average above 40 and a strike rate above 70. Yadav will earn consistent caps due to his pace, but his lack of control will mean he will be as inconsistent as Shahadat. He will take maybe 200 wickets at an average of 40, and a strike rate around 60. Varun Aaron will come and go like Sreesanth and Munaf Patel before him. Dinda will get smacked like its the last day in the history of our solar system...if he even earns a test cap. Think Shaun Tait minus 20 yards of pace.

It ain't easy to be a class Test pacer. Far more talented bowlers like Edwards, Gul, Malinga are just mediocre Test bowlers.

Zeeshan
September 25, 2012, 04:54 PM
We need help.

Keno ajke to amader mukher upor i heshe bole dilo commentator. Translation: Commentator said in to our face that Abul is not exactly a Lee, Malinga or Steyn. [Hyperbole mine emphasized.]

AsifTheManRahman
September 25, 2012, 05:18 PM
I think thats a bit insulting, Coach (and ATMR). Why do we need to import an Ishant Sharma when we have a Shahadat who will do the same job for 5% of Ishy's 900k IPL contract? What would we do with a Balaji?



Dinda/Pathan couldn't even stop Mushfiqur in 2012 Asia Cup - and that wasn't a one time thing, Indian bowlers have routinely gotten stick from no name BD sissies (Riyad, Naeem, etc) - whereas even North Korea women's 2nd XI strike bowler, Sum Il Baawla yorked him for a golden duck in the in that Fillipino warm-up T20 tourney where the BCB XI finished in 4th place, behind Phillipines Paddy Fielder XI, DRK Women's 2nd XI, Inner Mongolia Urban Resident's VIII (yes we were beaten by a 8-man squad from Mongolia :facepalm:), and we only finished ahead of Yeshiva Tel Aviv Maccabees on net run rate!

Dinda-Pathan would have ensured we lost even to that 5th string ehudi side!
If you're denying that Dinda/Nehra/Patel/Balaji are better than :facepalm:bul/Sh:facepalm:fiul/F:facepalm:rh:facepalm:d, then I really have nothing to say, because it's already a lost cause and you and I will never agree. But overall stats do speak for themselves. Look at Shafiul's ER today, look at Abul's. The Indian bowlers aren't pace Gods, but I think we did put ourselves in a position today where we could have won (if not qualified) even with a bunch of average fast bowlers. The ones we have are a) not fast and b) well below average.

Your post is a typical overreaction to what I said and you've taken my words out of context. What I meant was given our lack of fast bowling talent, we need to start somewhere, and even if we get a bunch of bowlers the quality of Dinda/Nehra/Balaji as the first batch of graduates from our new pace academy, that will be better than nothing (which is where we are at present) for a few years. It's not where we want to be, but it's a start. At the end of the day, just because the MRF has churned out a bunch of average pacers doesn't mean that we will too. I have my opinions on why India doesn't have great fast bowlers (maybe later), and don't think that those reasons will apply to us as well. I think we can still get pacers of Gul/Zaheer's quality (if no better) with some very good coaching at the grass roots.

BrianLara7
September 25, 2012, 05:59 PM
I am sorry but you have to be pretty naive to compare likes of Shahadat (statistically one of the worst bowlers ever) to guys like Ishant and Pathan who undoubtedly are average bowlers but have far better records than the mediocrity known as Shahadat. We have no test seamer as good as even praveen, ishant or pathan. Never mind zaheer (who is just a good bowler considering average of 30)

al Furqaan
September 25, 2012, 06:42 PM
If you're denying that Dinda/Nehra/Patel/Balaji are better than :facepalm:bul/Sh:facepalm:fiul/F:facepalm:rh:facepalm:d, then I really have nothing to say, because it's already a lost cause and you and I will never agree. But overall stats do speak for themselves. Look at Shafiul's ER today, look at Abul's. The Indian bowlers aren't pace Gods, but I think we did put ourselves in a position today where we could have won (if not qualified) even with a bunch of average fast bowlers. The ones we have are a) not fast and b) well below average.


They may not be exactly as fast as some others, but all 3 of our pacers cracked 85 mph today. Yes, I am absolutely denying that Dinda-Patel-Balaji are not significantly better than Shafiul or Shahadat and well worse than Mashrafe. Farhad and Abul are too crappy to enter this discussion. Almost every Bangladeshi batter has his HS against India, and maybe thats a product of laying out highways whenever we play India, but I think its a bit more than coincidence when the sample size is greater than 5.

Also note that I'm leaving Zaheer and Praveen out as they are better than all our pacers with only Mashrafe and Rubel (in ODIs) keeping it close. People point to how India reached a #1 peak for a good 2 years or so as evidence that their pace attack is good. Its not terrible and it is better than Bangladesh's or Zimbabwe's, but its not world's better. If Hamid Hasan could lead our attack, he could definitely be India's 3rd seamer and possibly share the new ball with Zaheer.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?bowling_pacespin=1;class=1;filter=advan ced;host=1;host=2;host=3;orderby=wickets;spanmin1= 01+jan+2007;spanval1=span;team=6;template=results; type=bowling

Thats a list of Indian pacers over the last 5 years in AUS, ENG, and SA. As you can see, Zaheer is world class. Praveen has been good but only played 3 matches. RP and Yadav are the only other ones with averages under 40 and they both average 39. Ishant averages over 60, Sreesanth 47. They actually probably have somewhat better stats in India, ironically, but I would venture that the cushion of huge totals from their batsman on home pitches helps somewhat.

None of our bowlers have bowled much in those countries, but for what its worth:

Mash averages 48
Talha 54
Shahadat 57
Rubel 117
Tapash 124


As for today's game, I don't think we were ever in a position to win after the first 10 overs of our innings. At 10 rpo, we should have finished with 190. NZ had scored 40 in the first 6 and still crossed 190. We scored 60. This was a FLAT pitch. When Gul goes for 12 an over, a) you know the pitch is flat b) can't expect much better from Abul and Shafiul, who I agree are crap, but not much crappier than Indian pacers.

Your post is a typical overreaction to what I said and you've taken my words out of context. What I meant was given our lack of fast bowling talent, we need to start somewhere, and even if we get a bunch of bowlers the quality of Dinda/Nehra/Balaji as the first batch of graduates from our new pace academy, that will be better than nothing (which is where we are at present) for a few years.

OK, I can somewhat agree on that although I will still maintain that, across all formats and holding all variables constant, I wouldn't say there is a huge difference between Sreesanth/Munaf/Pathan/Balaji/Joginder/Unadkat/VRV/RP and Shafiul-Shahadat-Nazmul-Rubel. Sure, they're on average 5-7 km faster but I wouldn't say they are even one notch better. Maybe a half a notch.

It's not where we want to be, but it's a start. At the end of the day, just because the MRF has churned out a bunch of average pacers doesn't mean that we will too. I have my opinions on why India doesn't have great fast bowlers (maybe later), and don't think that those reasons will apply to us as well. I think we can still get pacers of Gul/Zaheer's quality (if no better) with some very good coaching at the grass roots.

Thats great, I think so too. But most of your posts of late have been a tad misleading in that regard. I get the frustration, but when your last 500 posts sound like Mridul bhai's its hard to know if you've undergone a change in belief or just venting the depression of being a BD cricket fan.

al Furqaan
September 25, 2012, 06:45 PM
I am sorry but you have to be pretty naive to compare likes of Shahadat (statistically one of the worst bowlers ever) to guys like Ishant and Pathan who undoubtedly are average bowlers but have far better records than the mediocrity known as Shahadat. We have no test seamer as good as even praveen, ishant or pathan. Never mind zaheer (who is just a good bowler considering average of 30)

Not really. Shahadat averages 50, Ishant averages 40. Based on strike rates, its even closer. The fact that Ishant plays stronger teams more often probably balances with the fact that Shahadat rarely gets a total to defend. Better, ok fine. Leagues better, only Zaheer.

BrianLara7
September 25, 2012, 07:50 PM
Not really. Shahadat averages 50, Ishant averages 40. Based on strike rates, its even closer. The fact that Ishant plays stronger teams more often probably balances with the fact that Shahadat rarely gets a total to defend. Better, ok fine. Leagues better, only Zaheer.

so average difference of 10 isnt big? Then I guess Wasim akram and gul are just about equal.

al Furqaan
September 25, 2012, 08:17 PM
so average difference of 10 isnt big? Then I guess Wasim akram and gul are just about equal.

I think you ought to go back to the 3rd grade and work on your fractions.

50/40 = 1.25

30/20 = 1.5

tejkuni
September 25, 2012, 08:39 PM
How about Banglacricket.com Pace Academy? We can start generating funds here, we can try to get sponsorship. Or we can try to convince Tony Mia or Khaled Masud Pilot to open a Pace Dept. in their
Sylhet and Rajshahi academies. This may be a good way to help Bangladesh.

BengaliPagol
September 25, 2012, 09:27 PM
How about Banglacricket.com Pace Academy? We can start generating funds here, we can try to get sponsorship. Or we can try to convince Tony Mia or Khaled Masud Pilot to open a Pace Dept. in their
Sylhet and Rajshahi academies. This may be a good way to help Bangladesh.

Not a bad idea. Ian can be head of the pace academy. But how are we gonna get funds?

firstlane
September 25, 2012, 09:27 PM
Why can't we just get a fast bowling coach for our existing NCA for now? I am sure BCB can hunt some young pace bowlers and put them under contract/salary. That way those fast bowlers can learn other aspects of cricket from Richard McInnes and academy batters get to practice more against fast bowling. Just setting up a fast bowling academy won't do wonders. In the long run BCB need to prepare pace friendly pitches, keep pacers out of that stupid pool in domestic leagues/tournaments, developing fast bowling coaches etc. Coaches/captains will then be encouraged to play pace bowlers instead of just stocking the teams with loads of left hand spinners. The bottom line is a fast bowling culture need to be developed.

jeesh
September 25, 2012, 11:15 PM
I think Ian Pont has got his palm in his face reading some of these comments. That may be where our problem lies. We think too highly of ourselves. It would be a dream to have guys like Ishant Sharma, Yadav, Aaron, Munaf Patel in our lineup-especially after what we had to see yesterday. And why does every bowler have to be world class? Is any Pakistani quick in their lineup world class? Can they be compared to Wasims, Waqars? But Gul and co will get the job done. They might not be world class, but they are good enough to win matches. MRF might have not produced Wasim Akrams and McGraths, but has done enough to change the culture in a country which previously would have been satisfied with medium pacers. It has done enough to produce bowlers who win matches for their team. Abul Hasan is supposedly one of our brightest pace prospects. Apologies for being over candid-but he's just an ordinary Harry in India or Sri Lanka. Forget Pakistan, there part timers can bowl at his pace if neeeded. So lets be down to earth, accept we have a major problem and find a solution. The solution is like what Ian Pont suggested a full fledged pace academy which will work 12 months with NT pace bowlers, A Team pace bowlers, Under 19 and Emerging pace bowlers. Until and unless we do this we will continue to see Shafiuls and Abuls ruining our chances in winning matches.

Somebody asked whether SL and Pakistan have pace academies. Not sure about Pakistan, but Sri Lanka has one-it is a division of their high performance unit which has dedicated coaching and fitness personnel for pacers. Previously they too would send young prospects to India etc for training. But they stopped that and started something on their own in the early 2000's. Now look at the result. They have so many quality pace bowlers who are coming from the system. But wait...then again most of you guys will say Kulasekara is not world class, nothing special!!!

F6_Turbo
September 25, 2012, 11:24 PM
Jeesh :up:

World Champs
September 26, 2012, 12:09 AM
No, apart from Zaheer who has developed to be a world class seam bowler in Tests, no Indian pacer has left us gasping ever. Yes, they've gotten the job done, but thats because their batsman have always given them 300+ runs to play with. By contrast, even Sri Lankan pacers have had more success.

Sh*t, even Brian Vitori has had more success from 3 matches against our batsman than all the Indian pacers in every series combined!

Sharma, Sreesanth, Nehra, Agarkar, Patel, Pathan, Dinda, Joginder... when did they ever trouble any of our batters? Please provide some scorecards?

I can predict exactly whats going to happen. We can come back to this thread 5 years, 10 years from and see.

Zaheer will end his Test career with 350 wickets at an average of ~32 at a strike rate of 60 flat. He'll be the best Indian pacer ever after Kapil. Ishant will stick around the periphery because of lack of alternatives and because of raw potential which will never be cooked. He'll play the odd Test every series and will finish with 200-250 wickets at an average above 40 and a strike rate above 70. Yadav will earn consistent caps due to his pace, but his lack of control will mean he will be as inconsistent as Shahadat. He will take maybe 200 wickets at an average of 40, and a strike rate around 60. Varun Aaron will come and go like Sreesanth and Munaf Patel before him. Dinda will get smacked like its the last day in the history of our solar system...if he even earns a test cap. Think Shaun Tait minus 20 yards of pace.

It ain't easy to be a class Test pacer. Far more talented bowlers like Edwards, Gul, Malinga are just mediocre Test bowlers.
The bowlers you have mentioned has helped us win matches away from home.

Ind bowled out SAfrica in SAfrica for 72 in a test match because of Sreesanths bowling

We won a test match in Aus bcause of agarkar's brilliant 6 wickets haul

Ishant sharma was Man of the series against aus on Indian wickets.

Irfan Pathan has a very decent Odi record and even has a Man of the match performance in test match in aus.
Ashish nehra and Munaf has the same ODI record as James anderson despite playing on flat wickets of India, then I guess you wouldn't even take Anderson in Bdesh team.

Our bowlers may not be world beaters, but they will easily walk in your team. And it will be a step up from the current lot you have. Our bowlers may not have set the world on fire with their performance but they have performed here and there to help India win.

And I need a big face palm smiley for you just for comparing shahadat with Yadav.

beshideshi
September 26, 2012, 12:23 AM
I think this situation needs a deep research. What is it that sets us so apart from Pakistan? Don't yell out physical strength, because we have 6'2,6'3'' bowlers who still bowl pies. And I am sure Shahadat can take down Umar Gul in a fist fight, the problem lies somewhere else.

One of the main problems I have seen is the reluctance to use pacers in the domestic arena. From 3rd division to premier to NCL, teams use spinners for 90-95% of the overs. And suddenly you have a national team from this setup that demands 50% from the pacers, this is not going to happen that easily.

And we can not produce seaming conditions like Australia, South Africa etc. I think one thing we could try is, we can mandate domestic teams to have 40% of their overs bowled by pacers. Regardless of the match situation, conditions, quick bowlers will have to bowl 40% of the overs. This will ensure that the domestic teams actually invest more in pacers and ensure that they get the best out of those overs.

This is an approach used by several football clubs, who play the same formation throughout their ranks. In that sense, using pacers for 40% of the overs can be followed through from bottom up.

And no offence to Ian or anyone who thinks pace academy will do wonders,I don't think it is the best solution out there. Because no matter how much you train, unless you use your knowledge in the middle, it is quite useless.

Navo
September 26, 2012, 12:32 AM
^ Beshideshi, year-long pace academies will not only help our pace bowler's skills but also their mindset. At the moment, they only seem to train seriously immediately before an international series. Do you think Southee learned how to bowl yorkers flat and fast outside of off stump at the death just through match practice? (I won't even talk about more talented fast bowlers like Steyn, Malinga) Year round practice, facilitated by the structure of a pace academy, could do wonders for our beleaguered pace unit.

al Furqaan
September 26, 2012, 12:41 AM
I think Ian Pont has got his palm in his face reading some of these comments. That may be where our problem lies. We think too highly of ourselves. It would be a dream to have guys like Ishant Sharma, Yadav, Aaron, Munaf Patel in our lineup-especially after what we had to see yesterday. And why does every bowler have to be world class? Is any Pakistani quick in their lineup world class? Can they be compared to Wasims, Waqars? But Gul and co will get the job done. They might not be world class, but they are good enough to win matches. MRF might have not produced Wasim Akrams and McGraths, but has done enough to change the culture in a country which previously would have been satisfied with medium pacers. It has done enough to produce bowlers who win matches for their team. Abul Hasan is supposedly one of our brightest pace prospects. Apologies for being over candid-but he's just an ordinary Harry in India or Sri Lanka. Forget Pakistan, there part timers can bowl at his pace if neeeded. So lets be down to earth, accept we have a major problem and find a solution. The solution is like what Ian Pont suggested a full fledged pace academy which will work 12 months with NT pace bowlers, A Team pace bowlers, Under 19 and Emerging pace bowlers. Until and unless we do this we will continue to see Shafiuls and Abuls ruining our chances in winning matches.

Somebody asked whether SL and Pakistan have pace academies. Not sure about Pakistan, but Sri Lanka has one-it is a division of their high performance unit which has dedicated coaching and fitness personnel for pacers. Previously they too would send young prospects to India etc for training. But they stopped that and started something on their own in the early 2000's. Now look at the result. They have so many quality pace bowlers who are coming from the system. But wait...then again most of you guys will say Kulasekara is not world class, nothing special!!!

If we think so lowly of ourselves then perhaps Purohit's tripe about "inferiority complexes" are somewhat true. Ishant, Yadav, Sreesanth are just a tad bit better than our bowlers. Thats also with the benefit of better fielders, better umpiring decisions, and having the pressure of a mountain and half of runs to defend. Sure they are 5-7 km faster but pace isn't everything. Barring Zaheer, do any of the Indian pacers bowl a consistent line and length? Barring Zaheer, do any of them have a mastery of swing? Barring Ishant, do any of them generate uncomfortable bounce? Barring Yadav, are any of them geniunely consistently quick?

And Kulesekara is indeed nothing special. He hasn't even taken a 5 wicket haul yet. Let him take 300 wickets at strike of 60 and an average under 32. He will then be merely quite good. Not even great. Malinga is/was good. Vaas was better, but still not great.

Don't get me wrong, I would gladly take even a mediocre bowler instead of the crap fodder-feeders we have now. But the only thing Indian and SL quicks have that we should be envious of is an extra 2-3 yards of pace - which the SL quicks apart from Malinga and Fernando don't even have!

Don't get wrong, I'm not against a pace academy...far from it. I just don't think we should have the wrong models to emulate. Can you imagine a young batsman taking Sarwan as a standard over a guy like Dravid or even Dhoni simply because the best we have to offer is Ashraful?

Navo
September 26, 2012, 01:00 AM
^ Al_F, the Indian and SL fast bowlers can at least defend a good total set by their batsmen while our 'fodder-feeders', as you so aptly called them, cannot even manage that during the vast majority of matches.

And look at some of the details World Champs mentioned. Someone widely derided for not fulfilling their talent, Ishant Sharma, still managed a Man of the Series against Australia in India. Our best pace bowler Mashrafe has yet to claim a 5 wicket haul in an innings after bowling in more than 51 Test innings!

Just compare their overall bowling figures:
Test
Ishant - 78 innings - 133 wickets - 6/55 BBI - 10/108 BBM - 37.87 Avg. - 66.4 SR
Mash - 51 innings - 78 wickets - 4/60 BBI - 5/88 BBM - 41.52 Avg - 76.7 SR

No one is saying that emulating Indian fast bowlers should be our ultimate goal but we have to recognise that our pace bowlers are not better than their ones head to head - even though we mostly play against low ranked countries (and recently in home conditions as well)

beshideshi
September 26, 2012, 02:43 AM
^ Beshideshi, year-long pace academies will not only help our pace bowler's skills but also their mindset. At the moment, they only seem to train seriously immediately before an international series. Do you think Southee learned how to bowl yorkers flat and fast outside of off stump at the death just through match practice? (I won't even talk about more talented fast bowlers like Steyn, Malinga) Year round practice, facilitated by the structure of a pace academy, could do wonders for our beleaguered pace unit.

I am not saying academies are a bad idea. They obviously help keep the bowlers fit, correct their technique and others. But the mentality, the ability to bowl yorkers after yorkers are learnt in a game, and not in the nets.

No matter how much you train in the academy, it can't prepare you fully to bowl a death over where you defend 6 runs. A lot is learnt outside the nets.

I am not a master in cricket, but I have played at state U21 level in Australia, and know lots of other professional cricketers. And trust me, no matter how much you train, you learn more from a game than you could in a month in the nets.

jeesh
September 26, 2012, 02:58 AM
Not refuting your point too beshideshi. Sorry to digress from cricket-but a good analogy would be an MBA program. Just because you suck up theory and case studies doesnt make you a better manager. You must be able to implement what you learn in real life. Our pace academy would be like the MBA program, and the real business/work life is our domestic cricket, nature of wickets etc. You need both to develop both for high quality output. Your point is taken, but the academy would be a good starting point. At least the guys need a place to hone their skills and get their basics.

Naimul_Hd
September 26, 2012, 03:08 AM
Fast bowling academy won't be effective unless until we change our slow and low pitches. Very first thing we have to do is to change those spinning friendly pitches to sporting wickets with pace and bounce.

Ian Pont
September 26, 2012, 03:10 AM
What a complex lot you are! OMG

This is easy guys, trust me:

1. Implement a training programme and put pacers through it
2. Use a coaching system (very important) that is proven and works
3. Teach the bowlers the skills they need to be successful
4. Let them go out and try to implement those skills and review, correct as necessary

The 'secret' of having a successful pace academy is not the facility or the building. It is the quality of coaching. If you teach the right things to be fast & accurate and that becomes the expectation, then you have a success.

It seems that the mindset of not only the players and administrators need to change, but also fans and the media. You learn your skills in practices where it doesn't matter how many times you get it wrong. Then you go and try that out in matches.

To all those who say you learn more in matches, you gain experience in matches but skill is gained in practice. If you keep getting smacked in matches you don't learn any skill, you just have bad experiences. The T20 is all the proof you need. Matches are where you apply what skill you have learned.

In England, every county (18 teams) has a fast bowling academy. There is an emerging Player Programme (EPP) at each and a full county Academy at each. Above this, the ECB has a national Emerging Fast Bowling Group (EFBG) for those from the counties who are the better ones. There is also age group national camps, England Lions (A side) and women's teams, who are all part of a cohesive plan fed through a single Lead Fast Bowling Coach, who creates the bowling protocols alongside strength & conditioning coaches.

Under THAT system, if there are any prospects, they will be found and developed.

It is not about diet, genetics, weather, pitches or other such things. It is purely and simply about HOW you coach pace bowling and WHAT you teach. The fact is that few coaches, if any, in Bangladesh, know how or what to teach.

That's why a stand alone Pace Academy, to educate the players and the local coaches, is the fastest way forward.

You can only develop fast bowlers if you know how to do that. No point comparing what others do though because all that matters is what Bangladesh does. And so far, I don't see any hope if things remain the same>

Dare, Fail, Learn, Adapt, Succeed, Repeat - this is the formula

F6_Turbo
September 26, 2012, 03:11 AM
I am not saying academies are a bad idea. They obviously help keep the bowlers fit, correct their technique and others. But the mentality, the ability to bowl yorkers after yorkers are learnt in a game, and not in the nets.

No matter how much you train in the academy, it can't prepare you fully to bowl a death over where you defend 6 runs. A lot is learnt outside the nets.

I am not a master in cricket, but I have played at state U21 level in Australia, and know lots of other professional cricketers. And trust me, no matter how much you train, you learn more from a game than you could in a month in the nets.

And again you're correct...but the w****rs we have at the moment...don't possess the basic skills - let alone testing them in match situations.

The Academy might be too late for the current crop(I'm no coach...so happy to be corrected) but it should help the next crop coming through learn and advance those basic skills.

jeesh
September 26, 2012, 03:18 AM
If we think so lowly of ourselves then perhaps Purohit's tripe about "inferiority complexes" are somewhat true. Ishant, Yadav, Sreesanth are just a tad bit better than our bowlers. Thats also with the benefit of better fielders, better umpiring decisions, and having the pressure of a mountain and half of runs to defend. Sure they are 5-7 km faster but pace isn't everything. Barring Zaheer, do any of the Indian pacers bowl a consistent line and length? Barring Zaheer, do any of them have a mastery of swing? Barring Ishant, do any of them generate uncomfortable bounce? Barring Yadav, are any of them geniunely consistently quick?

And Kulesekara is indeed nothing special. He hasn't even taken a 5 wicket haul yet. Let him take 300 wickets at strike of 60 and an average under 32. He will then be merely quite good. Not even great. Malinga is/was good. Vaas was better, but still not great.

Don't get me wrong, I would gladly take even a mediocre bowler instead of the crap fodder-feeders we have now. But the only thing Indian and SL quicks have that we should be envious of is an extra 2-3 yards of pace - which the SL quicks apart from Malinga and Fernando don't even have!

Don't get wrong, I'm not against a pace academy...far from it. I just don't think we should have the wrong models to emulate. Can you imagine a young batsman taking Sarwan as a standard over a guy like Dravid or even Dhoni simply because the best we have to offer is Ashraful?
Appreciate your feedback. Our arguments differ only on one point-who to take us a benchmark. You obviously would benchmark the best-which is not wrong in anyway.

But i still think you are understating the ability of guys like Ishant Sharma, Yadav, Kulasekara. Just dont look at statistics, look at their skill, ability to bowl in different wickets, performance against different teams. It would be fantastic to have someone with the ability of Ishant, Kulasekera in the BD team. They are far ahead of our guys. Its not just pace, its skill, mental attributes etc. I am not Indian fan, heck i would cheer any team against them. But you have to appreciate talent-and they have it.

Mav
September 26, 2012, 03:40 AM
If you want to get the approval of BCB, then link the program with some upcoming program where BCB is planning to play some corruption game and pocket some money, for example - the stadium they are planning to build in khulna and coxes bazar.

If you ask for an additional facility to be built for Bowling, like new pitches, pacer hunt challenges, bowling machines, residence for bowlers...it might only be included with an already existing plan.

Since we are corrupted, that's how you have to link it.
And the BCB boss Kamal is known to be one of the corrupt giant in the country, not only in BCB but also in the share market, where he looted hundreds of millions of $$$.

So how do you motivate a guy like him and his slaves?
= You gotta show them, they can bag a few million here too.

al Furqaan
September 26, 2012, 04:43 AM
But i still think you are understating the ability of guys like Ishant Sharma, Yadav, Kulasekara. Just dont look at statistics, look at their skill, ability to bowl in different wickets, performance against different teams. It would be fantastic to have someone with the ability of Ishant, Kulasekera in the BD team. They are far ahead of our guys. Its not just pace, its skill, mental attributes etc. I am not Indian fan, heck i would cheer any team against them. But you have to appreciate talent-and they have it.

Oh, I think many of the Indian quicks are supremely talented, don't get me wrong! Ishant was a gem of a find, he had height, pace, and movement off the deck. But he never developed beyond raw talent. At first it was attributed to luck, edges not finding the fielders hands and I bought it, just like everyone else. After all the law of averages will eventually make a good bowler look good and a poor one look poor. But matches turned into series, and the months into years. Shahadat had all these things too once upon a time, perhaps not in quite the same abundance but he was quite close. But he just never developed beyond raw talent. In fact the parallels in their career trajectories is as uncanny as it is unfortunate.

Yadav, IMO, is less talented than Ishant. Yadav - and please don't laugh - reminds me of youtube videos of Waqar. Similar build, similar pace, similar approach to the crease. However, Yadav has economy rate that would make Shahadat jealous. I think Yadav will be able to get wickets due to sheer pace, and will occaisionally get them in boatloads. But unless he improves his skillset, he will be a very one-dimensional bowler who like Ishant will get hit in 5 spells for every Pfeiffer he grabs.

Aaron is too unknown to comment, but then again his relative anonymity might speak volumes for how good he really is.

Sreesanth is another guy who had unlimited potential but couldn't harness it. His career is largely done.

Irfan never got his groove back after his rookie year and now he's just a trundler who will occaisionally take 4-fers in ODIs.

Munaf was never as talented as the above guys although in his heyday he was pretty darn quick. Sadly, he just wasn't good enough.

Praveen, IMO, and albeit I don't know much, is India's second best pacer after Zaheer (who btw is Asia's best quick by a fair margin).

But to me Ashok Dinda couldn't even hold a candle to Tino Best or Andre Nel or Kulesekara. What is the difference between Dinda and Md Sami?

Now when people first started raving about Mohammad Amir, I thought he was just an over-hyped kid. And at first his stats indicated he was just decent, nothing special. But then he started ripping wickets before his 18th birthday and his guile and skill was simply Wasim-like. Its clear that if they were playing, both Amir and Asif would head and shoulders above any other pacer in the subcontinent. They would make Zaheer Khan - an exceptional bowler - look like the current Mashrafe Mortaza.

al Furqaan
September 26, 2012, 04:54 AM
^ Al_F, the Indian and SL fast bowlers can at least defend a good total set by their batsmen while our 'fodder-feeders', as you so aptly called them, cannot even manage that during the vast majority of matches.

And look at some of the details World Champs mentioned. Someone widely derided for not fulfilling their talent, Ishant Sharma, still managed a Man of the Series against Australia in India. Our best pace bowler Mashrafe has yet to claim a 5 wicket haul in an innings after bowling in more than 51 Test innings!

Just compare their overall bowling figures:
Test
Ishant - 78 innings - 133 wickets - 6/55 BBI - 10/108 BBM - 37.87 Avg. - 66.4 SR
Mash - 51 innings - 78 wickets - 4/60 BBI - 5/88 BBM - 41.52 Avg - 76.7 SR

No one is saying that emulating Indian fast bowlers should be our ultimate goal but we have to recognise that our pace bowlers are not better than their ones head to head - even though we mostly play against low ranked countries (and recently in home conditions as well)

To be frank I'm probably not interested in what world champs might say and we'll just have to agree to disagree.

However, do me a difference of 4 runs in the average department doesn't indicate a huge difference. Yes an average of of 22 vs 26 makes a significant difference, but between 38 and 42? I don't think it matters much.

Its true Ishant had that one great series. But the numbers in all other series haven't stacked up. Apart from WI and Bangladesh, his averages would be well over 40. In fact his average vs top 8 is probably the same as Mortaza's if not worse!

I also listed averages - despite our guys having tiny sample sizes - in AUS, ENG, SA:

Zaheer = 26
Yadav = 39
Mashrafe = 47
Sreesanth = 47
Talha = 54
Shahadat = 57
Ishant = 61

I don't think that makes India's look so much better than ours given they've got such a stronger team, been playing so much longer, have a pace academny, and have competent batsman to back them up.

Jadukor
September 26, 2012, 05:25 AM
The argument of Indian pace bowlers only being a tad better than ours is ridiculous. We cannot take 20 wickets yet as a test side. The results show how effective our pace bowlers are as opposed to theirs. Even though they got hammered by Australia and England, they were at one point the no. 1 test ranked team and they still manage to win Test series against weaker opponents like NZ and West Indies with important contributions from their pace unit. Not too long ago they drew test series in South Africa as well. If our bowlers were anything close to their bowlers in terms of both spin or pace, then we would have a lot more test and ODI wins to our names by now.

World Champs
September 26, 2012, 07:09 AM
Oh, I think many of the Indian quicks are supremely talented, don't get me wrong! Ishant was a gem of a find, he had height, pace, and movement off the deck. But he never developed beyond raw talent. At first it was attributed to luck, edges not finding the fielders hands and I bought it, just like everyone else. After all the law of averages will eventually make a good bowler look good and a poor one look poor. But matches turned into series, and the months into years. Shahadat had all these things too once upon a time, perhaps not in quite the same abundance but he was quite close. But he just never developed beyond raw talent. In fact the parallels in their career trajectories is as uncanny as it is unfortunate.

Yadav, IMO, is less talented than Ishant. Yadav - and please don't laugh - reminds me of youtube videos of Waqar. Similar build, similar pace, similar approach to the crease. However, Yadav has economy rate that would make Shahadat jealous. I think Yadav will be able to get wickets due to sheer pace, and will occaisionally get them in boatloads. But unless he improves his skillset, he will be a very one-dimensional bowler who like Ishant will get hit in 5 spells for every Pfeiffer he grabs.

Aaron is too unknown to comment, but then again his relative anonymity might speak volumes for how good he really is.

Sreesanth is another guy who had unlimited potential but couldn't harness it. His career is largely done.

Irfan never got his groove back after his rookie year and now he's just a trundler who will occaisionally take 4-fers in ODIs.

Munaf was never as talented as the above guys although in his heyday he was pretty darn quick. Sadly, he just wasn't good enough.

Praveen, IMO, and albeit I don't know much, is India's second best pacer after Zaheer (who btw is Asia's best quick by a fair margin).

But to me Ashok Dinda couldn't even hold a candle to Tino Best or Andre Nel or Kulesekara. What is the difference between Dinda and Md Sami?

Now when people first started raving about Mohammad Amir, I thought he was just an over-hyped kid. And at first his stats indicated he was just decent, nothing special. But then he started ripping wickets before his 18th birthday and his guile and skill was simply Wasim-like. Its clear that if they were playing, both Amir and Asif would head and shoulders above any other pacer in the subcontinent. They would make Zaheer Khan - an exceptional bowler - look like the current Mashrafe Mortaza.
Let's see who else wouldn't be welcomed in Bdesh team according to you in tests

Fidel edwards
Jerome taylor
Tim southee
Wahab Riaz

And Odi's

Peter siddle
Ben hilfenhaus
Tim bresnan
Tim southee
James anderson

jeesh
September 26, 2012, 08:11 AM
Enough of debating. Can we not make ourselves useful and do the following?

- Get a reporter of well known newspaper on why we should have a pace academy. Time is right. Who here knows reporters from the leading dailies?
- Can we not sign a petition, do a proposal and take it to BCB. I bet after last nights debacle we will get a million people to support this.
- Can we not submit the same to GP or any other loaded corporate which would be interested in developing cricket. I bet there are members here who have contacts in big companies

Sounds rosy and easy. It isnt! But at least we ll make our voices heard. I bet BCB knows we need an academy. This will make that ring in their ears harder. We can all sit here and debate all we want. But lets make ourselves useful by something productive. At least get a few newspaper stories out on the benefit of a pace academy and how it has helped other countries.

AsifTheManRahman
September 26, 2012, 10:19 AM
Isam frequents these forums, but he's a Cricinfo employee now and no longer with the Daily Star. Not sure if a Cricinfo article will have quite the same impact as that printed in a local daily. Actually, knowing the BCB, I doubt any article anywhere will have an impact unless it threatens the President's seat.

Rabeed Imam is also a member here, but he works for the BCB. Utpol Shubhro is too busy writing Kaler Kontho like articles and love letters about Shakib's handsomeness. So basically we're screwed and should avoid playing the Philippines lest we get humiliated yet again.

jeesh
September 26, 2012, 10:59 AM
No articles/petitions will work, but at least let the ideas get into their head. It always helps when more than one media paints the same picture. Already informed Md Islam. Lets see if he can come up with a story