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razath
October 5, 2012, 10:23 AM
It was wrong decision to replace Ian Pont and Julien Fountain by Shane Jurgense and Jason Swift when our boys were improving under the coaching of Ian Pont and Julien Fountain. Replacement of Jamie Siddons was inevitable after the world cup but not Ian Pont and Julien Fountain.

I do like most about Ian Pont and Julien Fountain is that they are good professional coach but they do care for Bangladesh as well.

Thank you Ian Pont and Julien Fountain.

Mr.Cricket
October 5, 2012, 10:37 AM
Agree. Ditto. And also sensible.
<br />Posted via BC Mobile Edition (Blackberry)

mufi_02
October 5, 2012, 10:47 AM
I don't think the problem lies in coaching. The desire and the intensity is missing from the players. During WC when Ian and Julian was there, India flattened us in the opening match and 58 and 78 followed. So it wasn't all great and amazing under their tenure. In fact, except the win against ENG, our WC was very poor and we almost lost to IRE.

Julien is coaching Pakistan now and I don't see any marked improvement in their fielding. Their fielding was very poor in the Semi Final and only Shoaib Malik fielded well. Ian was offered a contract by BCB but it fell off during the negotiations.

So we can't just stay in the past and keep yearning for Ian and Julien. They are good coaches but not irreplaceable. Yes, SJ and Swift has been very poor and should be replaced. Let's hope for new coaches and move forward.

jeesh
October 5, 2012, 11:03 AM
Sorry for repeating this over and over again but SJ and JS are Law's selection. Obviously Law has worked with them in the past at some point and preferred to have them in his unit. He prioritized familiarity over the best options. Otherwise why would you get JS who only has coaching experience at county level as opposed to Fountain who has worked at the highest level.

AsifTheManRahman
October 5, 2012, 11:22 AM
I don't think the problem lies in coaching. The desire and the intensity is missing from the players. During WC when Ian and Julian was there, India flattened us in the opening match and 58 and 78 followed. So it wasn't all great and amazing under their tenure. In fact, except the win against ENG, our WC was very poor and we almost lost to IRE.

Julien is coaching Pakistan now and I don't see any marked improvement in their fielding. Their fielding was very poor in the Semi Final and only Shoaib Malik fielded well. Ian was offered a contract by BCB but it fell off during the negotiations.

So we can't just stay in the past and keep yearning for Ian and Julien. They are good coaches but not irreplaceable. Yes, SJ and Swift has been very poor and should be replaced. Let's hope for new coaches and move forward.
I don't disagree with anything you said. However, the OP says that it was a mistake to replace them with Jurgensen and Swift and that I agree with too. Players have to take responsibility for their failures but so do coaches and these two gentlemen haven't done their jobs, so we need people who can/will. I'm not sure who is available/interested at this point, but Jurgensen and Swift have had their shares of chances and it isn't working out.

BANFAN
October 5, 2012, 11:34 AM
I don't think these coaches will go soon. RP is a fav of LK and SJ, JS and the rest of the coaching staff recruited after the appointment of RP are his favs ... So I don't see them going anytime soon. Only chance that their contracts may not be renewed ... But that's a long time...

It definitely was a mistake to leave IP and JF... Big mistake. You generally don't get coaches who can show upward trend in just 6 months.... And when someone shows that, you can't disturb that chemistry for any good reason....ya it's the right chemistry between the players and the coach that matters..otherwise, no coach is less capable on paper.

simon
October 5, 2012, 12:46 PM
I don't think the problem lies in coaching. The desire and the intensity is missing from the players. During WC when Ian and Julian was there, India flattened us in the opening match and 58 and 78 followed. So it wasn't all great and amazing under their tenure. In fact, except the win against ENG, our WC was very poor and we almost lost to IRE.

Julien is coaching Pakistan now and I don't see any marked improvement in their fielding. Their fielding was very poor in the Semi Final and only Shoaib Malik fielded well. Ian was offered a contract by BCB but it fell off during the negotiations.

So we can't just stay in the past and keep yearning for Ian and Julien. They are good coaches but not irreplaceable. Yes, SJ and Swift has been very poor and should be replaced. Let's hope for new coaches and move forward.

couldn't have said it any better. 10/10

But do agree that Swift and Jog-ashon have been disappointing.

Ian Pont
October 5, 2012, 12:50 PM
During WC when Ian and Julian was there, India flattened us in the opening match and 58 and 78 followed. It wasn't all great and amazing under their tenure.

I hate to repeat statistics at you, but before my arrival, Bangladesh had lost 27 out of 29 games. In my time there, they won 10 out of 14. At the end of 2010, Bangladesh had won 7 out of 8 matches (including the Banglawash) which was 2nd only to India in results at that time across 8 matches.

I am not saying it is because of me, or Julien or anyone. I am simply saying you are being extremely harsh to say that wasn't amazing, because on FORM alone, Bangladesh would have been ranked in the world's TOP 3.

Teams will always lose matches. Sides get bowled out for low scores. But don't confuse that with the TREND, which was definitely upwards.

Please remember you are dealing here with Bangladesh and not a top 4 Test country. To gain any sort of consistency over 6 months is wonderful.

As far as JS and SJ are concerned, they are professional coaches but haven't really been able to make much of an impact compared to me and Julien. That doesn't mean they aren't good. It might just be that we were lucky to turn it around.

If anyone can choose to remember those 6 months, it wasn't the bowling (me) or fielding (Julien) that was the issue, but the batting. 58 and 78 reflected that, and the win over England at Chittagong in the WC was thanks to Ryad and Shafiul's saving us with the bat.

How short a memory some people have...

razath
October 5, 2012, 01:49 PM
Thank you for the clarification Ian.

zulfiqer
October 5, 2012, 02:05 PM
100% agreed with pont...

mufi_02
October 5, 2012, 02:46 PM
I hate to repeat statistics at you, but before my arrival, Bangladesh had lost 27 out of 29 games. In my time there, they won 10 out of 14. At the end of 2010, Bangladesh had won 7 out of 8 matches (including the Banglawash) which was 2nd only to India in results at that time across 8 matches.

How short a memory some people have...

I am sorry I have to repeat some stats as well.

First of all, I acknowledged the fact both you and Julian are good coaches. We all appreciate your passion and continuous expert knowledge at BC.

I don't know if you referring to ODIs by saying we lost 27 out of 29 games before your arrival (Sep 2010). We should only take ODIs as standard here because you weren't with us for any Test matches.

Our ODI record (Jul 2009 – Sep 2010)
Played – 30
Won - 14

Yes, the stats are inflated because we won most of them against Zim and weak WI side. We lost comprehensively against the G8 nations and thus nothing to be too happy about as fans.

Your tenure
Played -14
Won – 10 (4 against NZ, 4 against ZIM, 1 against IRE, 1 against NED)

The discussion here is about Pace Bowling and Fielding coach. It’s hard to get fielding stats and as you are here already we can discuss Pace bowling improvements. You are obviously credited for the wins but if we look closely, it was the spinners who were the mastermind of those wins. Our pacers were only there to make up the 50 overs.

I don’t know if we can take NZ pace bowling into account. It was mostly the spinners especially Shakib who did most of the damage. But if we do –

NZ Series
Total overs we bowled – 178.1
Pace – 51.6 (29%) ; Wickets taken – 9 out of 35 (26%)
Spin – 126.5 (71%) Wickets taken – 26 out of 35 (74%)

So we see it was mostly the spinners who crafted our win. Next up was Zimbabwe and the pacers contributed even less

Zim Series
Total overs we bowled – 193.3
Pace – 52.1 (27%) ; Wickets taken – 8 out of 34 (23.5%)
Spin – 141.2 (73%) ; Wickets taken – 26 out of 34 (76.5%)


One of the reason specialized bowling and fielding coach was hired was for of the WC. Let’s look at that

WC 2011
Total overs we bowled – 252.8
Pace – 78.6 (31%) ; Wickets taken – 11 out of 36 (31.5%)
Spin – 174.2 (69%) ; Wickets taken – 25 out of 36 (69.5%)

Our poor batting and the inability of the spinners in the big matches let us down in the WC. Finger pointing started and drastic changes were made.

In conclusion – Your tenure was a slightly better era in our history but it was mostly due to SLAs and the super in-form Shakib. But as I said before, it was not all that great and amazing. We failed to deliver where it mattered most and it was the WC. But some credits should obviously go to Siddons, you and Julian and other staff.

Navo
October 5, 2012, 03:06 PM
^ Tbf, I think you should consider two other quantitative things. Rubel & company's stats individually before Ian's tenure and during Ian's tenure. Additionally, the above stats analysis would be bolstered with consideration of Rubel and co's econ rates during Ian's tenure.

For a more qualitative review, it may even be desirable to look at the CI commentary from those matches during his tenure and note how many edges, yorkers, good slower deliveries, well-directed bouncers the pacers managed. Given that it's only 14 ODIs, it shouldn't take too long. (I could volunteer to do this even)

mufi_02
October 5, 2012, 03:17 PM
^ I never discredited his contribution. Under him, Rubel improved most and Shafiul to a certain extent. I just disagreed with the fact that it was a great and amazing era in our history.

Ian started by W/L ratio and so I broke down that stats further. He came up with 27/29 and I believe that include Tests. We all know how horrible we always have been at Tests. Even as fans, our expectation is to drag any test longer and avoid innings defeat. So skewed statistics are applied to strengthen his argument.

Our team had an upward trend before they joined. Shakib was starting his amazing form and Tamim was red hot after coming from ENG. No one can question that it was Shakib and the barrage of SLAs that contributed to most of our wins. They bolstered it further and some credit should go to Siddons as well. If it was such an amazing era, we don't question Siddon's sacking but yearn for Ian and Julian who were in the same management.

I don't think even after looking at CI commentary we can get the whole picture. But you are welcome to do that. The major reason for Ian and Julian's hiring was for the big event -- WC at home. But it was total disappointment. Once again, it doesn't take away the fact that both of them are good coaches.

BCB have no interest in them. So its better for us as fans to move forward. We can't just remain in the past.

Nadim
October 5, 2012, 03:24 PM
^ I never discredited his contribution. Under him, Rubel improved most and Shafiul to a certain extent. I just disagreed with the fact that it was a great and amazing era in our history.

Ian started by W/L ratio and so I broke down that stats further. He came up with 27/29 and I believe that include Tests. We all know how horrible we always have been at Tests. Even as fans, our expectation is to drag any test longer and avoid innings defeat. So skewed statistics are applied to strengthen his argument.

Our team had an upward trend before they joined. Shakib was starting his amazing form and Tamim was red hot after coming from ENG. No one can question that it was Shakib and the barrage of SLAs that contributed to most of our wins. They bolstered it further and some credit should go to Siddons as well. If it was such an amazing era, we don't question Siddon's sacking but yearn for Ian and Julian who were in the same management.

I don't think even after looking at CI commentary we can get the whole picture. But you are welcome to do that. The major reason for Ian and Julian's hiring was for the big event -- WC at home. But it was total disappointment. Once again, it doesn't take away the fact that both of them are good coaches.

BCB have no interest in them. So its better for us as fans to move forward. We can't just remain in the past.

This may not be true for Pont. BCB did offer him to extend his contact but the salary wasn't enough for him to stay back with Bangladesh.

Source: Pont himself mentioned it in some thread few days back.

mufi_02
October 5, 2012, 03:29 PM
This may not be true for Pont. BCB did offer him to extend his contact but the salary wasn't enough for him to stay back with Bangladesh.

Source: Pont himself mentioned it in some thread few days back.

Ian was offered a contract by BCB but it fell off during the negotiations.


Yes, I mentioned it in post#3. I meant currently BCB has no interest in them.

roman
October 5, 2012, 04:58 PM
Why waste so much energy on Ian Pont? Chances are we might never see him back. He is busy with his business and other obligations. BCB and him may not be on the same boat. Yes, he was the best bowling coach we have had but its time to move on. He is not coming back anytime soon. So let's see what other options we have..

Ian is not the only coach out there..

Mr.Cricket
October 5, 2012, 05:09 PM
Why waste so much energy on Ian Pont? Chances are we might never see him back. He is busy with his business and other obligations. BCB and him may not be on the same boat. Yes, he was the best bowling coach we have had but its time to move on. He is not coming back anytime soon. So let's see what other options we have..

Ian is not the only coach out there..

We know he might not come back, but is there anyone good enough to replace him? we know Shane Jurgensen was the wrong replacement and now we're paying for it. i blame BCB for not thinking thoroughly and letting Law pick the teams coaches! bahh bcb baah :clap::notworthy::applause:

BengaliPagol
October 5, 2012, 07:32 PM
^ Tbf, I think you should consider two other quantitative things. Rubel & company's stats individually before Ian's tenure and during Ian's tenure. Additionally, the above stats analysis would be bolstered with consideration of Rubel and co's econ rates during Ian's tenure.

For a more qualitative review, it may even be desirable to look at the CI commentary from those matches during his tenure and note how many edges, yorkers, good slower deliveries, well-directed bouncers the pacers managed. Given that it's only 14 ODIs, it shouldn't take too long. (I could volunteer to do this even)

Exactly. Its kind of worrying but our pace bowlers never get the batsmen to edge the ball (except for Mash at times). That the worrying thing. Other international players seem to be playing our pace bowlers with ease, as if they are net bowlers or something. I reckon if Mash wasnt in the team then our pace bowling would be unbelievably horrible.

Dilscoop
October 5, 2012, 07:43 PM
All I know is when JF was here, we dropped total of 2-3 catches (AFAIR). Likes of Razzak, RAZZAK, took all their catches. Including one sick catch where RAZZAK ran about 30 yards and took a sick over the head catch. Razzak! Catches won matches. Go by the recent close losses and see how many of those we lost because our fielders let it slip through their fingers.

As for Ian and bowling, by those posted ratios, it looks like our fast bowlers played no part in those wins. And that's another example of how misleading cricket stats can be. While Ian was here (except the WC-overhyped, over pumped game opener against Shewag) we'd never complained about our fast bowlers' performances. They played huge supporting role which helped the spinners boost their stats. Look at our spinners now. Same spinners. Why can't they spin the opponent anymore? Why are they getting trashed so badly recently? Because fast bowlers are all out of form. They aren't providing that support anymore. Our bowling attack has become very blunt and 1D. It is easy pickings...

Dilscoop
October 5, 2012, 07:48 PM
@Navo, you don't even have to all that. Just compare the Run-column between then and now.

Tendulkar_Mcgrath
October 5, 2012, 10:16 PM
I hate to repeat statistics at you, but before my arrival, Bangladesh had lost 27 out of 29 games. In my time there, they won 10 out of 14. At the end of 2010, Bangladesh had won 7 out of 8 matches (including the Banglawash) which was 2nd only to India in results at that time across 8 matches.

I am not saying it is because of me, or Julien or anyone. I am simply saying you are being extremely harsh to say that wasn't amazing, because on FORM alone, Bangladesh would have been ranked in the world's TOP 3.

Teams will always lose matches. Sides get bowled out for low scores. But don't confuse that with the TREND, which was definitely upwards.

Please remember you are dealing here with Bangladesh and not a top 4 Test country. To gain any sort of consistency over 6 months is wonderful.

As far as JS and SJ are concerned, they are professional coaches but haven't really been able to make much of an impact compared to me and Julien. That doesn't mean they aren't good. It might just be that we were lucky to turn it around.

If anyone can choose to remember those 6 months, it wasn't the bowling (me) or fielding (Julien) that was the issue, but the batting. 58 and 78 reflected that, and the win over England at Chittagong in the WC was thanks to Ryad and Shafiul's saving us with the bat.

How short a memory some people have...


Excellent analysis Ian.

al-Sagar
October 5, 2012, 11:08 PM
selecting good coaches for national team only wont solve our problem .......

we need good coaches for NCL teams and may be the DPL teams. also we need to set up divisional academies equipped with good coaches and facilities.

its not possible to supply foreign coaches in all the above mentioned teams/clubs/academies.

so we need to develop quality coaches in Bangladesh. the foreign coaches working in national team, a team, u-19 or academy team can help in development of local coaches.

Ian Pont
October 6, 2012, 01:17 AM
I am sorry I have to repeat some stats as well.


Played -14
Won – 10 (4 against NZ, 4 against ZIM, 1 against IRE, 1 against NED)



Bhai... 10 wins for 14 matches is ALL I care about. Any influence on the team is a positive one, and you will also recall the uplifting videos we arranged with Maverick Studios. Julien and me also worked with batters (as we are both Level 3 head coaches), but that is not what I am saying. You know that Dhaka won the BPL with that same combination.

I don't mind you trying to lessen the record by attempting to point out who the opponents are but the bottom lime is a 71% win rate is what fans care about :up:

It seems with some so called 'fans' you cannot win. If we had lost all those 14 matches, I would have been BHUA. But we win 10, which is the greatest set of results in BD history, and that's not amazing. You need to learn to enjoy the big successes of Bangladesh Cricket as they don't happen very often

PS... you missed the GREATEST win against England at Chittagong. I hope that wasn't deliberate but simply in your desperation to put the best team results down

Sohel
October 6, 2012, 02:34 AM
selecting good coaches for national team only wont solve our problem .......

we need good coaches for NCL teams and may be the DPL teams. also we need to set up divisional academies equipped with good coaches and facilities.

its not possible to supply foreign coaches in all the above mentioned teams/clubs/academies.

so we need to develop quality coaches in Bangladesh. the foreign coaches working in national team, a team, u-19 or academy team can help in development of local coaches.

Perfectly put and I couldn't agree more wholeheartedly. That being said, we must consider:

1) The ability of a coach to effectively assess and coach our players with the basic ability to sustain success at the highest level. Results are everything and therefore the coach must be accountable for effectively communicating and inspiring better workrate in and out of coaching camp, and consistent application in the middle.

2) The passion, desire and ability of our players become coachable for their own good, especially when it comes to working hard on their own.

Rabz
October 6, 2012, 05:13 AM
Thought they weren't that big of a disappointment when we reached the Asia Cup final, which is unarguably our biggest success so far.

Naimul_Hd
October 6, 2012, 05:44 AM
Once our players will start performing well (similar to Asia Cup performance), all will look rosy again !

mehedi
October 6, 2012, 06:34 AM
had to post this video as someone said our pace bowlers did not contribute much in matches that we won during Ian Pont's tenure as national team's bowling coach

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/hdZtKvHTRss" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

thank you Ian :up:

Ajfar
October 6, 2012, 09:48 AM
I don't mind you trying to lessen the record by attempting to point out who the opponents are but the bottom lime is a 71% win rate is what fans care about :up:

It seems with some so called 'fans' you cannot win. If we had lost all those 14 matches, I would have been BHUA. But we win 10, which is the greatest set of results in BD history, and that's not amazing.

If the strength of the opposition does not matter than that is not the greatest set of results in BD cricket history. The greatest set of result in BD history was from October 13, 2006 to March 25, 2007. Leading up to the WC 2007 to the end of the group stages of WC 2007. We won 15 out of 17 games in that time frame and that puts the winning percentage at 88%.

mufi_02
October 6, 2012, 11:25 AM
It seems with some so called 'fans' you cannot win. If we had lost all those 14 matches, I would have been BHUA


Now, please don't take my stats and argument personally. There is no doubt you have more cricket knowledge than me. But when it comes to being a fan of BD cricket, I think now I have to learn the definition of fans, true fans, so called fans from you. Your implicit accusation of calling some of us so called fans isn't really appreciated.




PS... you missed the GREATEST win against England at Chittagong. I hope that wasn't deliberate but simply in your desperation to put the best team results down

I also didn't mention 58,78, and the embarrassment against India, narrow escape against IRE in that post as well. Bhai, I have no desperation to put down the achievement of my team.

but before my arrival, Bangladesh had lost 27 out of 29 games. In my time there, they won 10 out of 14. At the end of 2010, Bangladesh had won 7 out of 8 matches (including the Banglawash) which was 2nd only to India in results at that time across 8 matches.


Which isn't true, as I explained it here

I don't know if you referring to ODIs by saying we lost 27 out of 29 games before your arrival (Sep 2010). We should only take ODIs as standard here because you weren't with us for any Test matches.

Our ODI record (Jul 2009 – Sep 2010)
Played – 30
Won - 14




greatest set of results in BD history,

Thought they weren't that big of a disappointment when we reached the Asia Cup final, which is unarguably our biggest success so far.

If the strength of the opposition does not matter than that is not the greatest set of results in BD cricket history. The greatest set of result in BD history was from October 13, 2006 to March 25, 2007. Leading up to the WC 2007 to the end of the group stages of WC 2007. We won 15 out of 17 games in that time frame and that puts the winning percentage at 88%.

I hate to repeat statistics at you

I hate to repeat statistic to you as well.

Also, if opposition also don't matter, then by W/L ratio our we also had another better period.

From Jan 2009 - Aug 2009
ODIs played - 13 ; Won - 11 ; Ratio - 85%
Our first overseas Test Series win also occured during this period

So who cares about opponents, both by ratio and significance this period was better than yours.



How short a memory some people have...

Your accusation of calling some so called fans and memory problems is really interesting. I never took any personal attack to you but that didn't stop you. In fact, if you go back you will see many times I said you and Julien are good coaches. I merely presented some statistics and you came with 'so called fans' and 'memory problems'.

BrianLara7
October 6, 2012, 11:43 AM
And what great work have Ian pont and Julien fountain done since they left? No offense but for all their greatness, Ian pont hasn't even been hired by any test team and Julien fountain hasn't really done anything for Pakistan. Pakistan still has arguable the worst fielding team among all in top 8. Jergunsen and Swift are even worse, we need to hire coaches who have good track record as being coaches of test teams and that shouldnt be a problem (Bcb has enough money).

Ian Pont
October 6, 2012, 12:21 PM
And what great work have Ian pont and Julien fountain done since they left? No offense but for all their greatness, Ian pont hasn't even been hired by any test team and Julien fountain hasn't really done anything for Pakistan. Pakistan still has arguable the worst fielding team among all in top 8. Jergunsen and Swift are even worse, we need to hire coaches who have good track record as being coaches of test teams and that shouldnt be a problem (Bcb has enough money).

Yeah very true.

No International team is employing me at the moment, which just proves how bhua I am as a coach. You are absolutely correct.

Dennis Lillee is also a really crappy coach by the same measurement, as is Glenn McGrath, Craig McDermott, Waqar Younis, Wasim Akram, Michael Bevan, Tom Moody, TA Sekar, Darren Lehmann plus hundreds of other coaches like me who have project work, short term contracts and private coaching commitments developing talent elsewhere.

By the same token then David Sekar, Joe Dawes, Mohammed Akram, Ottis Gibson, Champaka Ramanayake are the very FINEST bowling coaches in the world because they hold national posts?

Coaches often apply for roles because they wish to find out how much money is on offer. Others apply to get their name known to those boards whether they get shortlisted or not.

This sort of post above really winds me up as it shows little understanding of what makes a good coach or not.

Ian Pont
October 6, 2012, 12:24 PM
mufi_02... I stand corrected.

My tenure with the national team is the second best win record in the history of Bangladesh Cricket.

I will settle for that - end of discussion :-)

BrianLara7
October 6, 2012, 12:29 PM
Yeah very true.

No International team is employing me at the moment, which just proves how bhua I am as a coach. You are absolutely correct.

Dennis Lillee is also a really crappy coach by the same measurement, as is Glenn McGrath, Craig McDermott, Waqar Younis, Wasim Akram, Michael Bevan, Tom Moody, TA Sekar, Darren Lehmann plus hundreds of other coaches like me who have project work, short term contracts and private coaching commitments developing talent elsewhere.

Coaches often apply for roles because they wish to find out how much money is on offer. Others apply to get their name known to those boards whether they get shortlisted or not.

This sort of post above really winds me up as it shows little understanding of what makes a good coach or not.

How about the fact that likes of Moody, Mcdermott, Waqar have all been succesful coaches for TOP TEAMS before? It's not because of their lack of credentials as coach of test teams that they don't have a coaching job currently. Some of the other guys don't really have any record as coaching top national teams so I don't think it shows anything really (great player doesn't mean great coach). I have just posted my opinion, you don't need to feel offended by it.

Ian Pont
October 6, 2012, 12:36 PM
How about the fact that likes of Moody, Mcdermott, Waqar have all been succesful coaches for TOP TEAMS before? It's not because of their lack of credentials as coach of test teams that they don't have a coaching job currently. Some of the other guys don't really have any record as coaching top national teams so I don't think it shows anything really (great player doesn't mean great coach). I have just posted my opinion, you don't need to feel offended by it.

HMMM let me see what I shouldn't feel offended by:

"what great work have Ian pont and Julien fountain done since they left? No offense but for all their greatness, Ian pont hasn't even been hired by any test team"

You are implying I am not a good coach bhai because I am not with a national team and my work is poor because of that. You don't even know me dost so please be very careful about what you say.

This is not opinion based on any fact. I don't criticise what you do in your life as not being very good. In fact I don't care. But I do have to defend myself against such crappy comments that attack my credibility.

Most friends tell me I shouldn't bother responding to such tripe, but I cannot let you get away with saying what you said.

At least mufi_02 had the decency to argue his point (somewhat laboriously but nonetheless with some sense).

Matribhasha
October 6, 2012, 12:38 PM
I want to keep it simple here. I feel that Safiul Islam's bowling in the WC was the reason behind the debacle. And this can be tied to Ian Pont. We basically gave up the game within the first 3 overs.

But clearly, all else seemed to be good when they were here to help. The vibe was good. We had no fast bowlers, but they seemed to be getting some success with Rubel and Shafiul. Fans were optimistic with their future (the 2 bowlers). As a unit they did gel well.

And the same thing can be said about Julian.

I think Ian has many holes in his conversations here. But they have been by any measure, the best deputy coaches we have had. If I had a pocket full of money (and more), I would like to have asked them back for 18 months, for their help, under some general agreements though.

Ian Pont
October 6, 2012, 12:45 PM
I want to keep it simple here. I feel that Safiul Islam's bowling in the WC was the reason behind the debacle. And this can be tied to Ian Pont. We basically gave up the game within the first 3 overs.

But clearly, all else seemed to be good when they were here to help. The vibe was good. We had no fast bowlers, but they seemed to be getting some success with Rubel and Shafiul. Fans were optimistic with their future (the 2 bowlers). As a unit they did gel well.

And the same thing can be said about Julian.

I think Ian has many holes in his conversations here. But they have been by any measure, the best deputy coaches we have had. If I had a pocket full of money (and more), I would like to have asked them back for 18 months, for their help, under some general agreements though.

Thanks for the partial vote of confidence.. but just one thing....

Just sometimes, how about Shafiul Islam being responsible for his own performance?

mufi_02
October 6, 2012, 01:33 PM
I will settle for that - end of discussion :-)

Yes, lets call it end of discussion :)




At least mufi_02 had the decency to argue his point (somewhat laboriously but nonetheless with some sense).

I guess, thanks. Yes I hope I made some sense. You are a good coach and yes there was some improvemnt in Shafiul and most in Rubel under your tenure.

SS
October 6, 2012, 02:58 PM
Jogra fesad koira ki luv ase....ignore korlei to hoi...Hope Mods steps in...

NoName
October 6, 2012, 03:19 PM
How does one forget how to catch a ball, just cause they have a different coach.

Zeeshan
October 6, 2012, 03:57 PM
Jogra fesad koira ki luv ase....ignore korlei to hoi...Hope Mods steps in...

shetai. I was thinking hard: If Ian posts before the lock, would it be 'Ian before the lock?'

http://cdn0.sbnation.com/imported_assets/561342/gil-head-explode-again.gif

meazz1
October 6, 2012, 04:58 PM
We all are are entitled to our openion and here's mine. The fact is, during Pont's tenure we had seen better cricket from the boys which has been going downhill ever since he left. it could be simpley that the boys were more confident having Ian around which is a sure miss right now.

Dilscoop
October 6, 2012, 05:16 PM
^ Yup, if you look at the pic from pre WC11, you will notice how happy Rubel and Shafiul looked around Ian.

BengaliPagol
October 6, 2012, 05:58 PM
Whats with this arguing about when we were good at bowling and win/ratio and disndat. Were are a crap team and the truth is if we dont get a really good specialist coach particularly for pace bowling we are going to get even worse...

reyme
October 6, 2012, 06:04 PM
All I want to say, regardless of the W/L ratio, Ian, Julien, Sujan, Siddons was the best set of coaches we have had till now. Ian and Julien made immediate impact, Siddons was doing good with batting (but he lacks head coaching quality)...and Sujan definitely helped a lot by bringing the team together. Sujan was the architect for awesome results in WI, our first whitewash series. The team was playing amazing as a unit. Now sure we were disappointing in the world cup 2011...but we still played as complete team!

And today, that same old team spirit is just not there...with the very same set of players. What's the difference? Simple: a new set of coaches, the one who have apparently no control over this team, no solid gameplan in any games, terrible performance in all 3 departments. These might be good coaches, but they won't work out for a team like ours. We needs more hands on coaches.

Isnaad
October 6, 2012, 10:38 PM
I hope Shane Jurgensen and Jason Swift see this thread and step up soon. They are still our bowling & fielding coaches and yes they have had a bad tour. I'm waiting eagerly to see 1 more series. Looking back would only be a solution if Ian Pont and Julien Fountain had any chance of coming back and/or if BCB would reconsider them again. None of that is happening in the near future.
...
Another thing, while you all are jumping into the wagon of criticism of SJ, one has to take into consideration the fact that our 2nd best bowler is injured and hasn't had a go for a pretty long time now. Under SJ's tenure, he has done pretty well too. With such a shallow pipeline, it is really hard to gel a bowling attack with the likes of Rubel being injured. Spare a thought too because our pace bowling was not bad at all during the Asia cup that too with Rubel injured.
...
As for Jason Swift, I don't know what he is doing. Fielding has really been poor recently.

BengaliPagol
October 6, 2012, 11:00 PM
Maybe you cant just vent your frustration on the coaches. The coaches might teach them everything their is in training but on the field the players cant execute. If thats the case then its not the coaches fault.

Ian Pont
October 7, 2012, 12:41 AM
...
Another thing, while you all are jumping into the wagon of criticism of SJ, one has to take into consideration the fact that our 2nd best bowler is injured and hasn't had a go for a pretty long time now. Under SJ's tenure, he has done pretty well too. With such a shallow pipeline, it is really hard to gel a bowling attack with the likes of Rubel being injured. Spare a thought too because our pace bowling was not bad at all during the Asia cup that too with Rubel injured.


It's a good point. Without making excuses for anyone it is hard if you are missing a bowler like Rubel as the pipeline is so small behind him. I can recall fans saying Rubel was wayward and not effective when I arrived in the role, so we shouldn't forget that not everyone is a fan of Rubel. I love the guy... as I do Nazmul, who has been so poorly treated by successive selection policies.

I recall being told Mash was our best bowler yet we Banglawashed the Kiwis without him and this is where I feel Shafiul and Rubel gained genuine confidence and belief for the first time.

The problem comes from clutching at straws when a bowler has a decent match. Instead of backing a fast bowler and working with him to develop his skills, they get discarded almost series by series - yet there is no place they can go be be developed outside of the national team where it isn't the role of a national coach to do hard-nosed development work for players who are meant to be internationals. SJ just wouldn't have the time.

My first viewing of Bangladesh bowlers in 2010 had Mash (carrying a knee injury and lost the captaincy), Shafiul, Rubel, Shahadat, Nazmul, Syed Rasel, Dollar, Robin and some promising net bowlers.

The fast bowling relies now on just Mash and Shafiul.

Gowza
October 8, 2012, 01:25 AM
this is why an academy would be good, however, there needs to be quality coaching in the domestic tournaments as well and there also needs to be good coaches for the age group teams.

jeesh
October 8, 2012, 02:04 AM
Anyone noticed Sri Lanka's overall fielding in WC T20. Its been exceptional. Probably the best amongst the 4 subcontinental teams. Guess who is their fielding coach? A guy called Ruwan Kalpage who was at one point our academy coach, and if i am not mistaken fielding coach for a short while.

My point is sometimes even with the best coaches we wont see improvement, unless and until the players have the intent to learn and improve. I bet none of you would want Kalpage as our fielding coach or Ramanayake (Again) as our bowling coach. But see how disciplined Sri Lanka's pace attack is. Even their all rounders have more skill, variety and consistency than our front line bowlers.

So while i am not praising or supporting SJ and JS, all i am saying sometimes it is very easy to blame coaches and make them scapegoats. But are our guys working hard enough or learning, or are they even interested? A couple of days ago there was an interview of A Team coach Stuart Barnes who also made the same point. Guys have plenty of talent and ability but they just dont seem to be interested to learn and grow-they seem happy with 50's and 60's. They cannot become world class cricketers if they dont have the desire and ambition.

Gowza
October 8, 2012, 02:44 AM
we need more shakib's, nasir's and mushy's. players who want to work and want to improve, i believe that rubel is one that has a strong desire to improve, his results and improvement suggest that. it's a real shame, some good talents are going to waste and it doesn't have to be like that, but they have to want it.

SS
October 8, 2012, 09:02 AM
Anyone noticed Sri Lanka's overall fielding in WC T20. Its been exceptional. Probably the best amongst the 4 subcontinental teams. Guess who is their fielding coach? A guy called Ruwan Kalpage who was at one point our academy coach, and if i am not mistaken fielding coach for a short while.

My point is sometimes even with the best coaches we wont see improvement, unless and until the players have the intent to learn and improve. I bet none of you would want Kalpage as our fielding coach or Ramanayake (Again) as our bowling coach. But see how disciplined Sri Lanka's pace attack is. Even their all rounders have more skill, variety and consistency than our front line bowlers.

So while i am not praising or supporting SJ and JS, all i am saying sometimes it is very easy to blame coaches and make them scapegoats. But are our guys working hard enough or learning, or are they even interested? A couple of days ago there was an interview of A Team coach Stuart Barnes who also made the same point. Guys have plenty of talent and ability but they just dont seem to be interested to learn and grow-they seem happy with 50's and 60's. They cannot become world class cricketers if they dont have the desire and ambition.

Interesting observation..but how we can change our genes over night...i wish we had Aladdin cherag to make it happen to our players to our people to the administrator to the management...that will be long term planning and also you are talking about BD cricket management's long term planning!!! As it is not a possiblility we want dynamic coaches who can spoon feed our players and bring out everything from them...same way we used to need to go to good teachers who used to bring the best results from the students during our early days in BD. Even nowadays so many students get perfect As with the help of good teacher (I am not talking about talents who are exceptions rather I am not about the average people)