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shuziburo
November 20, 2012, 04:34 PM
We have players with natural talents in our team, such as Ash and JS. But, their natural talent has not produced results, because hard work and discipline was absent. In my short life, I have seen many people with natural talents and many others with hard work and discipline. In the end, it was always the latter group that was successful.

When Sachin Tendulkar was coming up, there was another up-and-coming player named Vinod Kambli. He was considered to be equally talented, but ended up playing only 17 tests. We all know about Tendulkar. This is just one example. Michael Jordan is considered to be the best basketball player ever. But, he was not taken at #1 in the NBA draft. He was good, but over the years, became a complete player, by working hard. Look around and you'll find many good players in many sports, who have natural talent but don't work very hard. But, you would be hard-pressed to find an elite player that does not work hard.

Unfortunately, such a culture does not exist in our team. To give an example, Virat Kohli had a pretty pronounced weakness against balls outside the off stamp. He worked to correct this. Our own Shakib has had the same problem. Although he works on his batting, he has not worked hard enough to correct this. Until a culture of hard work is established among our players, we will continue to struggle with sporadic success.

shuziburo
November 20, 2012, 04:43 PM
The Kohli method (http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/581741.html) is relevant. I hope every BD batsman reads it.

kalpurush
November 20, 2012, 04:57 PM
Don't just blame the players alone Shuja bhai. Here comes the need for passionate and devoted coaches who can help to fix/correct the shortcomings/problems our players have.

Of course, our players need to work hard - isn't it an obvious elements to be successful!?


Plus, make national team selection tougher and a fair one. If selectors keep selecting the likes of Junaid/Shahadat , they will take it as granted, thus, will not do the hard work to fix their problems.

On the other hand, fair selections will motivate all the players to do better as they will know if they work hard, they will be rewarded; which will help to create a competitive environment in our cricket.

The more competition, the better players we will see in our national team with better techniques/skills.

shuziburo
November 20, 2012, 07:11 PM
Don't just blame the players alone Shuja bhai. Here comes the need for passionate and devoted coaches who can help to fix/correct the shortcomings/problems our players have.

Of course, our players need to work hard - isn't it an obvious elements to be successful!?


Plus, make national team selection tougher and a fair one. If selectors keep selecting the likes of Junaid/Shahadat , they will take it as granted, thus, will not do the hard work to fix their problems.

On the other hand, fair selections will motivate all the players to do better as they will know if they work hard, they will be rewarded; which will help to create a competitive environment in our cricket.

The more competition, the better players we will see in our national team with better techniques/skills.

Absolutely agree. I have always been a supporter of the Australian method, what have you done lately. But, for that, you need smart selectors.

Given our current system, the onus is on the players in the team. Not ideal, but that is the unfortunate reality.

shuziburo
November 20, 2012, 07:22 PM
When you think of Sehwag, you think of a man with a hammer. But, he is very methodical with his hitting especially in tests. He waits for balls in his comfort zone and then wham, unlike the indiscriminate hackers in our team. You don't average 50+ with hand-eye-coordination only. Here (http://blogs.espncricinfo.com/beyondtheblues/archives/2010/08/why_sehwag_isnt_so_hot_in_odis.php) is an interesting analysis.

Our batters need to start using their gray-cells.

shuziburo
November 20, 2012, 07:34 PM
I am not a big fan of Rahul Dravid, but there is no doubt regarding his hard work. I wish every BD batsman reads A cricketer most evolved (http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/557698.html). We need one player to show the way. Hopefully, the rest will then follow. Indian cricketers were not always known for hard work, you know.

AsifTheManRahman
November 20, 2012, 07:51 PM
I am not a big fan of Rahul Dravid, but there is no doubt regarding his hard work. I wish every BD batsman reads A cricketer most evolved (http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/557698.html). We need one player to show the way. Hopefully, the rest will then follow. Indian cricketers were not always known for hard work, you know.
Not sure if Dravid was the pioneer of hard work in India. Sachin would spend hours and hours and hours and hours practising batting even before Dravid was on the scene. But yes, the current bunch of players has set the bar at a new high and the results have shown.
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AsifTheManRahman
November 20, 2012, 07:53 PM
Btw, Ashraful has no talent. Just a world of luck.
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Max100
November 20, 2012, 08:45 PM
most hard working cricketer is matthew hayden. this guy used to practice extra hrs even though he was in best form then

SS
November 20, 2012, 09:26 PM
Shuja bhai ...you are right to the point..I have been saying these since ages that our players are not hard worker and they do not use head nor do they are intelligent enough to know that if you have lack on something you have to put 200% to be number one. Look at Shakib, he is indeed a great cricketer but he just lost the his ranking and I think Kallis or Watson earned it. Though he is unfortunate not to play games like them but still he did not rectify the problems he had with bat and especially with his bowling. He probably does not care what people say but he can not deny that if he does not work harder he won't be able to keep up the great years he had and also served BD as the best we got. Currently few promising players are rising and he can not give excuse that it is too much barden as they are helping so he should propel instead of just relax and stay where he is.

Sometimes I wonder why we lack this ethics, I have no clue!

Sohel
November 20, 2012, 09:47 PM
I don't subscribe to the "versus" in this thread title. The two aren't mutually exclusive in my book. Natural ability such as hand-eye coordination or generating pace and swing can only be harnessed and then consistently applied in the middle through hard work and discipline. Sachin Tendulkar is an excellent example of that. The supremely talented batting maestro became a genius because of his hard work. He practices with the determination and will of someone with no ability and that makes him what he is.

As much as some love to celebrate mediocrity perhaps because that's what they are, hard work and discipline without ability won't get you to the very top. It will only make you less mediocre. Hard work and discipline can make what you have perform optimally, not upgrade.

BrianLara7
November 20, 2012, 10:46 PM
The Kohli method (http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/581741.html) is relevant. I hope every BD batsman reads it.

Do they even know how to read Bangla (forget about English) ?

al Furqaan
November 20, 2012, 11:38 PM
I am always a proponent of natural talent for a couple of reasons. Natural talent is inborn, therefore it appears early and lets a player have a maximally long career. Little to no need for him to spend years refining his game at the domestic/academy level. Secondly, natural talent has a higher ceiling...players possessing it have a higher maximum potential.

That said, the difference in what Ashraful has produced versus that which has been produced by Naeem Islam should suffice to say what Bangladesh needs right now, barring the odd exception (Anamul, Taskin). We need the best possible consistent results, no longer the jodi laigga jai magic of Cardiff. That was ok for us at that time, not now when the world expects more from us. We should expect more from ourselves.

That being said, natural talent is natural talent and there isn't any substitute for it. Should Ashraful regain serious form at anytime in the future, I'll be supporting him again.

jeesh
November 22, 2012, 03:26 AM
Anyone read this book- http://www.amazon.com/Outliers-Story-Success-Malcolm-Gladwell/dp/0316017930

Gives a good explanation of the title

BANFAN
November 22, 2012, 03:34 AM
Natural talent without discipline & hard work is useless. Because Hard work and discipline is needed to turn his talent into skills.... So, a talented but unskilled guy has nothing to contribute, other than looking talented....

Gowza
November 22, 2012, 03:36 AM
you need both to succeed. some are more naturally talented than others but you won't make it in international cricket without your own natural talent, hard work makes it all happen though.

AsifTheManRahman
November 22, 2012, 09:18 AM
Hard work korbo ken? Tesht piliyar hoichi ki hard work koira? Hard work koira keu kono din borolok hoy nai. Ken Ashraful bhai re dekhen na?

M.H.Rubel
November 22, 2012, 10:08 AM
Nice thread Suja vai.
Rule No 1 : Without hard work and discipline you can not succeed any where.
Rule No 2: Is it possible to succeed only by hard work and discipline and hard work? Answer is no.
So, Both talent and proper nursing are equally needed. In fact to succeed any where 50% depends on talent and 50% depends on hard work+discipline.

shuziburo
November 28, 2012, 01:10 PM
Clearly, you need some talent. But, the most talented ones are not always successful. Despite Shachin's inimitable career, I consider Gavaskar the best Indian batsman of all time. Clearly, he had talent. Otherwise, how could he handle the hostile pace bowling in WI in 1971 without ever facing a pacer on a bouncy pitch? People call him a boring batsman, but he had to be one. He knew that if he got out India would be in big trouble. I wonder how many records he would have broken if he had any support in the batting order earlier during his career. Anyone remember the thrashing he gave Ewen Chatfield (career economy: 3.57) during the 1987 WC? He used to be the hardest worker in the team.

I don't subscribe to the "versus" in this thread title. The two aren't mutually exclusive in my book. Natural ability such as hand-eye coordination or generating pace and swing can only be harnessed and then consistently applied in the middle through hard work and discipline. Sachin Tendulkar is an excellent example of that. The supremely talented batting maestro became a genius because of his hard work. He practices with the determination and will of someone with no ability and that makes him what he is.

As much as some love to celebrate mediocrity perhaps because that's what they are, hard work and discipline without ability won't get you to the very top. It will only make you less mediocre. Hard work and discipline can make what you have perform optimally, not upgrade.

shuziburo
November 28, 2012, 01:17 PM
I read that McGrath used to put a coin on the pitch and bowl on it.
You think Waqar Younis bowled his lethal inswinging yorkers without practicing them? Malinga developed his the same way.
Of the current crop, Kohli and Amla comes to mind easily.

shuziburo
November 28, 2012, 01:18 PM
Btw, Ashraful has no talent. Just a world of luck.
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Huh? :wow:

zsayeed
November 28, 2012, 01:30 PM
Btw, Ashraful has no talent. Just a world of luck.
<br />Posted via BC Mobile Edition (Blackberry)

Huh? :wow:

It takes some talent for the top half and some doing to accomplish the lower 10th as well.
http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff430/zsayeed/ash-1.jpg

oronnya
November 28, 2012, 10:05 PM
Shuja bhai ...you are right to the point..I have been saying these since ages that our players are not hard worker and they do not use head nor do they are intelligent enough to know that if you have lack on something you have to put 200% to be number one. Look at Shakib, he is indeed a great cricketer but he just lost the his ranking and I think Kallis or Watson earned it. Though he is unfortunate not to play games like them but still he did not rectify the problems he had with bat and especially with his bowling. He probably does not care what people say but he can not deny that if he does not work harder he won't be able to keep up the great years he had and also served BD as the best we got. Currently few promising players are rising and he can not give excuse that it is too much barden as they are helping so he should propel instead of just relax and stay where he is.

Sometimes I wonder why we lack this ethics, I have no clue!

Just wanted to point out that Shakib didn't lose his ODI ranking to Watson again rather he went past Watson after his Asia Cup heroics. So that's a wrong information. Everytime Watson goes up the ranking Shakib just snatches it from him. So don't tell me he didn't work hard to get his #1 ranking back. It's just we take it for granted. We should give credit where it's due and criticize the aspects of a player which might hold him back from being a great cricketer.

Yes he still makes the same mistakes and your rest of the argument remains valid as he still could do better.

zsayeed
November 28, 2012, 10:16 PM
Just wanted to point out that Shakib didn't lose his ODI ranking to Watson again rather he went past Watson after his Asia Cup heroics. So that's a wrong information. Everytime Watson goes up the ranking Shakib just snatches it from him. So don't tell me he didn't work hard to get his #1 ranking back. It's just we take it for granted. We should give credit where it's due and criticize the aspects of a player which might hold him back from being a great cricketer.

Yes he still makes the same mistakes and your rest of the argument remains valid as he still could do better.

but he did lose it to Kallis in tests.

oronnya
November 28, 2012, 10:28 PM
but he did lose it to Kallis in tests.

I only pointed out the Watson part which is a wrong info.

Sohel
November 28, 2012, 11:57 PM
Clearly, you need some talent. But, the most talented ones are not always successful. Despite Shachin's inimitable career, I consider Gavaskar the best Indian batsman of all time. Clearly, he had talent. Otherwise, how could he handle the hostile pace bowling in WI in 1971 without ever facing a pacer on a bouncy pitch? People call him a boring batsman, but he had to be one. He knew that if he got out India would be in big trouble. I wonder how many records he would have broken if he had any support in the batting order earlier during his career. Anyone remember the thrashing he gave Ewen Chatfield (career economy: 3.57) during the 1987 WC? He used to be the hardest worker in the team.

Shuza Bhai, let me clarify what I mean by natural ability for batsmen. I mean the ability to sight the ball early and respond, not react to that delivery with a high percentage shot, be it a hook, a backward defensive or a good leave . Some batsmen can do it as early as it leaves the bowler's hand, and then accurately anticipate the torsion, pace, line and length of the delivery. With desire, discipline and hard work, they can harness that talent and play the ball according its particular merit with either high percentage shot, not by trying to execute a premeditated script irrespective of that merit in a particular match situation. This requires exactly the sort of temperament that makes a successful batsman with numbers that back-up his success.

It is not about being "boring" or "exciting". I am partial to "exciting" batsmen with generally a positive approach such as Sir Viv, Greg Chappell, Zahir Abbas, Lara, Ponting, Tendulkar, De Silva, Dravid, VVS Laxman, Mahela Jayawardene, Michael Clarke, Kumar Sangakkara, Kevin Pietersen, AB Devilliers, Hashim Amla and Virat Kohli. I also appreciate "boring" guys like Gavaskar, Chaderpaul and Trott with their far more cautious approach. Whatever works in a particular match situation without harming the team's cause at the time is good batting.

One must remember that it is also about putting runs on the board and unorthodox forces of nature such as Javed Miandad, Sanath Jayasuriya, Chis Gayle and Virender Sehwag are also great players to be appreciated in their own right.

As far as our Bangladeshi batsmen are concerned, I feel Shakib, Tamim and Bijoy have what it takes to become our versions of reliable match winners like Miandad, Hayden and Clarke in that order, possibly between the age of 27-37, provided they overcome many of the damaging things about our cricket culture. I also believe that guys like Mushfiq, Riyad, Nasir, Hom, Soumya, Sohan and possibly Shourobh can become consistently useful contributors capable of retiring with more than decent numbers provided that they too work just as hard on all aspects of batting to optimize what they have.

Each of them needs to be vigilant against complacency, premeditation and work hard on their own. Each needs to consolidate his strength and rectify his flaws to become the best he can be, as consistently he can be. It is not only about rectifying biomechanic issues such as footwork, backlift and handspeed; but also psychosomatic ones such as calmness and judgement that can make him read the match situation, and then respond positively and decisively to that situation with the right high percentage stroke within his particular ability. It is all bout playing each ball according to its merit with best possible high percentage shot under the circumstances.

We cannot have talented AND hardworking guys like Ashraful simply throw their wicket away because of poor judgement and other psychosomatic inadequacies, or someone like Mohammad Nazimuddin who doesn't see the ball until it hits his bat. Both are equally harmful as is a premeditated slog sweep or a premeditated block in response to a full toss or a half volley. Both need desire and hardwork before they're overcome.

shuziburo
November 29, 2012, 06:49 PM
One must remember that it is also about putting runs on the board and unorthodox forces of nature such as Javed Miandad, Sanath Jayasuriya, Chis Gayle and Virender Sehwag are also great players to be appreciated in their own right.
Actually, Miandad was one of the smartest cricketers. He could hit, but almost never slogged. Jayasuriya and Gayle are from a different breed. Sehwag is a great hitter, but he looks for the right ball, which is why he has a 50+ test average despite scoring fast.

As far as our Bangladeshi batsmen are concerned, I feel Shakib, Tamim and Bijoy have what it takes to become our versions of reliable match winners like Miandad, Hayden and Clarke in that order, possibly between the age of 27-37, provided they overcome many of the damaging things about our cricket culture. I also believe that guys like Mushfiq, Riyad, Nasir, Hom, Soumya, Sohan and possibly Shourobh can become consistently useful contributors capable of retiring with more than decent numbers provided that they too work just as hard on all aspects of batting to optimize what they have.
Of your list, I have confidence in Nasir. Actually, I think he already has almost (but not quite, yet) the same aura as Shakib. Riyad has been consistent in recent matches. Mushfiq has to let go of his keeping. I think keeping and captaincy is draining him and he has become a 30-and-gone type of batsman. I am not convinced about the rest. They have to show more before I can be a believer.

Each of them needs to be vigilant against complacency, premeditation and work hard on their own. Each needs to consolidate his strength and rectify his flaws to become the best he can be, as consistently he can be. It is not only about rectifying biomechanic issues such as footwork, backlift and handspeed; but also psychosomatic ones such as calmness and judgement that can make him read the match situation, and then respond positively and decisively to that situation with the right high percentage stroke within his particular ability. It is all bout playing each ball according to its merit with best possible high percentage shot under the circumstances.
In other words, emulate Dravid. BTW, I am not a fan of Dravid the person. But, if one wants to reach his ceiling as a batsman, there is no better model.

We cannot have talented AND hardworking guys like Ashraful simply throw their wicket away because of poor judgement and other psychosomatic inadequacies, or someone like Mohammad Nazimuddin who doesn't see the ball until it hits his bat. Both are equally harmful as is a premeditated slog sweep or a premeditated block in response to a full toss or a half volley. Both need desire and hardwork before they're overcome.
Wow! You have Ash and Nazimuddin in the same sentence!