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ms01
March 23, 2013, 03:29 PM
I was very supportive of Shane Jurgensen at first. however, I have decided to agree with members here in BC that he is utterly a poor bowling coach. Bangladeshi pacers have shown NO sign of improvement under his leadership. in my honest opinion, he was very lucky that he got head coach role for one year. He does not deserve to coach bangladesh. Then again, no coach had any success in overseas condition. I want to know people's opinion on what he actually does and has the pace bowling improved or declined in performance under his leadership?

Habib
March 23, 2013, 09:45 PM
Abar Jigay. He should be fired all the way back to Australia. We have had some good Aussie coaches but he ain't one of them.

Crisis
March 23, 2013, 09:47 PM
Stuart Law .... afsos

Jadukor
March 23, 2013, 09:51 PM
We are not going to get a very good coach to commit to us for long term. I think in the recent past we tried with Law and Pybus but it didn't work out. To sort out our bowling issues we could organize bowling camps with a high profile bowler like Wasim, Waqar or Mcgrath. I think people wouldn't mind to work with us for a short time and that's what we should aim for.

jeesh
March 23, 2013, 10:11 PM
Well batting seems to be clicking, we are batting a plan, a clear purpose. We havent batted this well against Sri Lanka in the past.

Its hard to understand our bowling issues. Its easy to direct all frustration to the coach. But what can a coach do when your most experienced bowler who has 195 wickets bowls like an amateur. And selectors picking Shahadat Hossain to replace Nazmul? Just gives you a picture of the entire situation. Everyone is at fault here-the players, the coach, the selectors, BCB.

riankhan
March 23, 2013, 10:35 PM
It is a bad practice to fire coaches every now n then. He isn't experienced enough, and we very much knew it before hiring him. To me, he is doing ok. Let him finish his contracted period, and hope he will deliver better.

kalpurush
March 23, 2013, 10:39 PM
We are not going to get a very good coach to commit to us for long term. I think in the recent past we tried with Law and Pybus but it didn't work out. To sort out our bowling issues we could organize bowling camps with a high profile bowler like Wasim, Waqar or Mcgrath. I think people wouldn't mind to work with us for a short time and that's what we should aim for.

Well batting seems to be clicking, we are batting a plan, a clear purpose. We havent batted this well against Sri Lanka in the past.

Its hard to understand our bowling issues. Its easy to direct all frustration to the coach. But what can a coach do when your most experienced bowler who has 195 wickets bowls like an amateur. And selectors picking Shahadat Hossain to replace Nazmul? Just gives you a picture of the entire situation. Everyone is at fault here-the players, the coach, the selectors, BCB.
+1

We need a McGrath to teach our "Abuls" how to bowl maintaining line and length - just the basics.

Zunaid
March 23, 2013, 10:49 PM
We already had an Ian McPont and I did see an immediate impact on our pace bowlers. Even of Rubel and Shahadat that we are thinking of consigning to permanent exile or worse.

reyme
March 23, 2013, 11:07 PM
Coach gets a big F in all departments! team selection is an uttter failure: our selectors are clueless but the coach has the final say on team selection. he must select the team based on our Strength which is Spin! His 3 pacer selection was the main reason for our loss in Test.
Imagine we had Enamul, Mosharraf Rubel, Saqlain, Gazi instead of Rubel, Abul, Robiul? No way I see how we lose 2nd Test.

He has abdolutely no leadesrship skill. He is like a YES man to our star players and listen to whatever our clueless selectors has to tell him. Under his coaching our captaincy sucks big time.

As a bowling coach he was fired from New Zealand and you can all see why. He is total failure. Under Pont we made solid progress, he just ruined it.

People who thinks he can't be replaced must realized no one is irreplaceable in this world. BCB can either hire easily hire big name coaching staff series by series, or just just need to spend more through corporate sponsorships. Batting is improving due to the new batting coach, SJ has nothing to do with it.

I for one firmly believe SJ should be fired as he failed and he will continue to fail. He might be a nice guy but he simply won't be able to take this team anywhere.

Jadukor
March 23, 2013, 11:13 PM
Pacers should not behave like a herd of sheep being told what to do every single day or match situation. Rubel has receved coaching from Pont and so he knows what he needs to do at the nets. They should be able to assess the opposition batters strengths and weaknesses and develop gameplans to get them out. Running in hard and bowling short balls and acting surprised when the ball disappears to the boundary is not a gameplan. We need a pace bowling coach but we also need bowlers who can think by themselves and work on their own skills.

Sohel
March 23, 2013, 11:25 PM
Now, I'm not a huge fan of SJ but firing him is unnecessary because that in itself won't solve the issues we're witnessing out there. The combination of our bowling and fielding has regressed by a decade and we obviously need coaches of Ian and Julian's quality to stop the slide and start moving forward again. Both have proven themselves to be effective with our players in those areas AND BEYOND (the bunt and run strike rotation drills while JS was on vaca for example).

BCB already has the reputation of being the passive aggressive and unprofessional boss it is and that, coupled with the negative image of Dhaka in particular and Bangladesh in general make Bangladesh an unattractive place of employment. There are coaches who simply want the money and are willing to serve their time in purgatory with lots of paid escapes abroad. I'm not sure whether such opportunists have the passion and commitment to make the difference we want to see. Those who do are unlikely to tolerate BCB's extra contractual BS and two stepping, and therefore last long.

Blaming the coach alone for team selection is utterly unfair. Blame selectors for that. The starting XI is selected by team management and the Captain plays a decisive role in that. Then there are all those phone calls from "upstairs" to deal with.

Sohel
March 23, 2013, 11:37 PM
+1

We need a McGrath to teach our "Abuls" how to bowl maintaining line and length - just the basics.

Bro, I good teacher by definition is someone who can effectively TEACH. Be it a skill, the enhancement of a preexisting skill or the rectification of flaws and then inspire proper application in the middle. The players too must have the desire to learn and work hard on their own, both physically and mentally, to upgrade their game. Most Bangladeshi players seldom do when it comes to bowling and fielding. Batsmen who work hard on their own, guys like Sir, JuSi, KaEdge and Da Rock for example, can't seem to learn anything no matter how hard they try. A coach can do only so much babysitting and only for so long in the only test playing nation where players need to come into the national team to learn the basics before our domestic FC and List A are non-competitive, farcical and inadequate affairs where you can get away with being crap while piling up undeserved FC and List A stats without those basics.

The ability to actually teach and inspire are the most important skills for an EFFECTIVE coach, not their mad skills as former players. What makes us think that a former player who showed great skill in his playing days will be a effective coach as well?

ms01
March 24, 2013, 10:39 AM
Some Stats @ Home V West Indies (Pacer)

Test Series: West Indies Pacers

1. Tino Best (12 Wickets)
2. Fidel Edwards (7 Wicket)

Test Series: Bangladeshi Pacers:

1. Rubel Hossain (4 Wickets)
2. Shahadat Hossain (1 wicket)

Crisis
March 24, 2013, 11:28 AM
Gordon Greenidge please!

Rabz
March 24, 2013, 01:48 PM
Can I apply for coaching role if they fire Shane ?

Shartaz
March 24, 2013, 04:42 PM
Oh no, here we go again with the bandwagon threads. Just coz of one bad ODI we need to fire Shane Jurgensen?

No I think Shane Jurgensen is doing an ok job, and at least he wants the job unlike the previous two coaches.

reyme
March 28, 2013, 04:46 AM
It's time Shane Jurgensen pays BCB to coach a test playing national team.

Fazal
March 28, 2013, 04:41 PM
So, can he stay up to ZIM series, or he need to go now?

To stay upto ZIM series, does he need to pay to BCB, or BCB needs to pay him based on the result for last two series against WI and now SL ?

BANFAN
March 28, 2013, 04:57 PM
Just because we won, doesn't mean Shane gets bag full of credits for that... We were having this upward trend since the Asia cup and it continues... A better coach than SJ could have probably made us look much better than how we look now... I don't feel we have had the right development from Asia cup, some areas have probably deteriorated ..like pace bowling, SJ's primary role..

So, yes let him enjoy the success as the head coach, but I don't assess him any higher than what he deserves as the pace bowling coach...his coaching standard reflects in our pace bowlers...

Even the way our batsmen were reacting to this situation, doesn't say that SJ had some impact, there was not much plan visible in them.

If there was no HC, I'm sure Mushy would have handled the team in the same way...

Tigers_eye
March 28, 2013, 05:23 PM
Some Stats @ Home V West Indies (Pacer)

Test Series: West Indies Pacers

1. Tino Best (12 Wickets)
2. Fidel Edwards (7 Wicket)

Test Series: Bangladeshi Pacers:

1. Rubel Hossain (4 Wickets)
2. Shahadat Hossain (1 wicket)
Can you give the SL fast bowlers and BD fast bowlers for the current series.

Kisu kisu manush'rey monay hoi agey duita ..lagai tar por kotha. Jotto shob.

Fazal
March 28, 2013, 05:28 PM
Yes sure all the negative stuff in the team is due to JS and all the positive stuff that is going on (end result is the proof) is nothing to do with JS .... JS was just lucky.


I understand that logic... I have seen that kind of logic plenty of times...

"ashol kotha hochhe jare dekhte nari tar choron baka"

As for me, I care more about end result... if lucky head coach brings us good results, I am ok with that....I am just a murkho fan...don't care about over-analysis of the team, as long as team brings good results... that will make me happy.

reyme
March 28, 2013, 07:18 PM
Poor team selection of 3 useless pacers for the 2nd test cost us the game.
Thats his area of expertise and I am sure he had a big say on that 3 pacer team slection.

You want to give credit where its due, but we also need to realize its his areas of
expertise: pace, strategy (captaincy), team selection (he decides the final 11 with captain)
are areas of big concern right now. I am sure if Shakib was the coach for this team the final result would have been better. Realistically we would have been much better off with McInnes.

Dilscoop
March 28, 2013, 07:27 PM
Fire JF- the bowling coach. Then idk if what he's left with is good enough to keep him.

Fazal
March 28, 2013, 07:31 PM
If someone would tell me before this away series against SL that without injured players like Sakib, SN, Mashrafee, Nazmul, Naeem, Enamul, limited Tamim we would draw one test, and have the opportunity to draw another test, tie ODI series 1-1, I would be jumping up and down.... and I would definitely consider that a successful tour.

And that's what we did. Therefore I am in no mood to find a scape goat for our failure... because in a broader sense there was not that much to complain in this series....

There will always be room for improvement after completion of any series, and this series is not any different from others. But only difference is: unlike our track record in away series, we didn't embarrass ourselves.... actually this series gave us more positives than negatives.

So far this is a successful series and all team members including the HC deserves kudos...not demand for sack in my opinion.

deshprem
March 28, 2013, 07:43 PM
yeh sure, let's keep firing and hiring.

tejkuni
March 28, 2013, 08:18 PM
Fire him as a bowling coach, but hire him as a permanent head coach. After successful series against WI and somewhat successful SL series, people want to fire him. And both are without Shakib. We have seen the results under Pybus in Holland and Scotland.

MohammedC
March 28, 2013, 08:36 PM
You fire now you get nothing before IPL is over. I always said we need to keep him.

Naimul_Hd
March 28, 2013, 09:23 PM
Yes we won against SL but i am not too pleased with the approach of our boys. Every batsman seemed to be in so rush as if we were chasing 12 runs per over. Mushy, Zia, Riyad did not need to be cheeky. I don't know what instruction was given those once Anamul and Jahurul got out unnecessarily.

shuziburo
March 28, 2013, 09:35 PM
Pacers should not behave like a herd of sheep being told what to do every single day or match situation. Rubel has receved coaching from Pont and so he knows what he needs to do at the nets. They should be able to assess the opposition batters strengths and weaknesses and develop gameplans to get them out. Running in hard and bowling short balls and acting surprised when the ball disappears to the boundary is not a gameplan. We need a pace bowling coach but we also need bowlers who can think by themselves and work on their own skills.

The only two pacers bowlers who have shown this ability are Mash and Shafiul, and also the stepson. The other pacers don't have it. The only way they might bowl better if there is a real pace bowling coach working with them.

Jadukor
March 28, 2013, 09:36 PM
We dont have the luxury of hiring and firing so often. Remember SJ hiring happened because we had very few alternatives. I think the best thing for us to do is to get him a strong support staff in terms of a good pace bowling coach and physio. Under him there is at least team harmony and the young guys seem to be settling in nicely. Last thing we need is a character like Dean Jones to unsettle what we got going right now.

shuziburo
March 28, 2013, 09:38 PM
SJ is doing as well as can be expected for any available head coach. But, he failed as the bowling coach, big time. BCB should hire a good bowling coach. Saqlain probably can teach the pacers better.

shuziburo
March 28, 2013, 09:39 PM
We really should stop these knee-jerk threads!

firstlane
March 28, 2013, 09:50 PM
We are in a difficult situation now. The team is collectively progressing under SJ's guidance but not the pacers. I know we don't have a good stock of pace bowlers but there gotta be some sign of improvements if you work under a bowling coach for months. Unfortunately we haven't seen that. Now you can't hire another bowling coach because SJ won't take it very well. So what's the solution? Fire SJ? Not so easy I guess.

al-Sagar
March 29, 2013, 04:19 AM
jalo jalo agun jalo ....

wktkeeper
March 29, 2013, 04:38 AM
We dont have the luxury of hiring and firing so often. Remember SJ hiring happened because we had very few alternatives. I think the best thing for us to do is to get him a strong support staff in terms of a good pace bowling coach and physio. Under him there is at least team harmony and the young guys seem to be settling in nicely. Last thing we need is a character like Dean Jones to unsettle what we got going right now.

get pont as bowling coach :) after two success with DG, i wont mind him to guide our pacers as well as motivate players to do well.

BANFAN
March 29, 2013, 05:16 AM
The only two pacers bowlers who have shown this ability are Mash and Shafiul, and also the stepson. The other pacers don't have it. The only way they might bowl better if there is a real pace bowling coach working with them.

That's the point. SJ is our pace bowling coach for last over two years and he has failed to impact the pacer big time and even they have deteriorated from where Ian left them. S he has proven to be a crap in his own trade as a coach.

So a guy failed in his own department, can't just be assumed that he is behind our success as a team. Unless you can point that he did xx and that's why we have result yy.. Pure assumptions will be illogical due to his failure as the pace bowling coach.

The team started performing since Asia Cup under law...so it more logical to say that the team is just going through that motion or we have already achieved a standard that we will sustain irrespective of a head coach. If the head coach would be contributing, we should see marked improvement from Asia cup performance.

And if you go by departments, lets check where SJ is impacting the team and how much credit he should be given for these wins:

1. Pace Bowling: big negative for him
2. Spin Bowling: he has no business there
3. Fielding: has no business
4. Batting: I see him failing to fix problems of Mullah for example.... And pretty much regular guys performing. So can't give him much credit
5. Team strategies: he has shown major failures here, by picking 3 pacers, weird team combinations and batting orders were weird many times.. Didn't see any pro level strategies on display.
6. Misc: the only place I find he can be credited; he pursues a policy of non interference and allowing Mushy to work with all the freedom as he wants. If that's the only reason, team is winning the matches, then not having a coach could be even better.

As, he doesn't impact the team in any manner, so firing him, shouldn't matter to the team's performance...case closed.

NB: But well, since he has neither negative impact on the team, he can continue while we find out a good pace bowling coach and a head coach, who will impact the team positively; that will lift our team performance...while we will be floating as a team like this under him, with just the natural progression...

beshideshi
March 29, 2013, 07:36 AM
I think some of us expect that a magician like gandalf will come in and suddenly our pacers will become world beaters. This is not going to happen. These are international bowlers, no one needs to tell them to not bowl short in an odi.
I know some fine tuning can be done, but I don't think players like abul will ever turn into a good pacer. We havr to change our system and try and produce better pacers. Except mashrafe and shafiul no one seems to have a basic cricket brain.
We can blame jurgeson as much as we want but the truth is, the problem is with the pacers. They simply aren't good enough, specially after 2 of our best pacers are injured

jeesh
March 29, 2013, 09:48 AM
Pacers should not behave like a herd of sheep being told what to do every single day or match situation. Rubel has receved coaching from Pont and so he knows what he needs to do at the nets. They should be able to assess the opposition batters strengths and weaknesses and develop gameplans to get them out. Running in hard and bowling short balls and acting surprised when the ball disappears to the boundary is not a gameplan. We need a pace bowling coach but we also need bowlers who can think by themselves and work on their own skills.
Well said brother. Sth all of us need the realize. Look at the brilliant application from the batsmen. Do we have a world class batting coach? No guys like Nasir learn from their experience and keep improving. They use intelligence when batting. We need bowlers who can do the same.

shuziburo
March 29, 2013, 10:13 AM
We have seen our pacers regress since SJ took over. However, the team performed pretty well overall since he took over as HC. I might be a minority here, but he should be retained as the full-time HC.

However, we need a real pace-bowling coach. Someone like Ian Pont or Aqib Javed or Vaas (unavailable).

shuziburo
March 29, 2013, 10:14 AM
Well said brother. Sth all of us need the realize. Look at the brilliant application from the batsmen. Do we have a world class batting coach? No guys like Nasir learn from their experience and keep improving. They use intelligence when batting. We need bowlers who can do the same.

We only have two of that mold, Mash and Shafiul. Rubel and Abul has the physical capability, but not the rest of the package.

Dhurr
March 30, 2013, 02:19 AM
Hai re, Bangali!

If you fire Shane Jurgensen, who will you hire then?

How many A-list (or B-list or C-list) coaches are knocking down BCB's doors for this EXTREMELY LUCRATIVE job in an AMAZING, EXPAT-FRIENDLY city?

Tigers_eye
March 30, 2013, 03:05 AM
We really should stop these knee-jerk threads!
Troll thread. :down: He didn't answer my question. Mod hoiso kono kamer na.

reyme
March 30, 2013, 05:56 AM
We already had an Ian McPont and I did see an immediate impact on our pace bowlers. Even of Rubel and Shahadat that we are thinking of consigning to permanent exile or worse.

This! As banfan pointed out nicely, SJ has not much to offer for this team as a head coach or a bowling coach. For those who thinks there is no one better out there who would be interested, I have a few suggestions: Ian Pont and McInnes.

wktkeeper
March 30, 2013, 06:01 AM
This! As banfan pointed out nicely, SJ has not much to offer for this team as a head coach or a bowling coach. For those who thinks there is no one better out there who would be interested, I have a few suggestions: Ian Pont and McInnes.

I also doubt about SJ's choice of pacers for last ODI. i would not even consider shahdat for any ODI or T20 match no matter how worst the situation is.

reyme
March 30, 2013, 06:08 AM
His 3 pacer selection cost us 2nd Test. He fails miserably when it comes to strategy. His fails to improve our pacers yet, pack the team with more pacers. He just does not get it. Sure we did okay in SL, but I firmly believe under Pont we probably would have done a lot better.

wktkeeper
March 30, 2013, 06:25 AM
His 3 pacer selection cost us 2nd Test. He fails miserably when it comes to strategy. His fails to improve our pacers yet, pack the team with more pacers. He just does not get it. Sure we did okay in SL, but I firmly believe under Pont we probably would have done a lot better.

100% agree.

simon
March 30, 2013, 07:03 AM
He is a good for nothing coach.
No I was wrong, good for nothing are those who are not good not bad, this guy is rather bad.
Our fast bowling is on the back gear, didn't hear from any cricketer that he did something extraordinary or even something praise worthy.

Tigers_eye
March 30, 2013, 07:09 AM
This! As banfan pointed out nicely, SJ has not much to offer for this team as a head coach or a bowling coach. For those who thinks there is no one better out there who would be interested, I have a few suggestions: Ian Pont and McInnes.
1. Fans don't choose nor they have any say on who is to coach a national team.

2. Our coach has a year contract with BCB. Unless he resigns, you and others can't get your wish fulfilled - which I doubt will happen. The current team results show he deserves something good instead of this 'fire him' thread.

Tigers_eye
March 30, 2013, 07:16 AM
Yes sure all the negative stuff in the team is due to JS and all the positive stuff that is going on (end result is the proof) is nothing to do with JS .... JS was just lucky.


I understand that logic... I have seen that kind of logic plenty of times...

"ashol kotha hochhe jare dekhte nari tar choron baka"

As for me, I care more about end result... if lucky head coach brings us good results, I am ok with that....I am just a murkho fan...don't care about over-analysis of the team, as long as team brings good results... that will make me happy.

:goal: :goal: :goal: :up:

ms01
March 30, 2013, 09:31 AM
Can you give the SL fast bowlers and BD fast bowlers for the current series.

Kisu kisu manush'rey monay hoi agey duita ..lagai tar por kotha. Jotto shob.

Test Series V Sri Lanka (SL Pacers)

1. RMS Eranga (6 wickets @ 66.6 SR)
2. KMDN Kulasekara ( 5 Wickets @ 73.2 SR)

Test Series V Sri Lanka (BD Pacers)

1. Abul Hasan ( 3 wickets @ 128.0 SR)
2. Shahadat Hossain (1 wicket @ 180 SR)

Both Robiul and Rubel stats not included as they did not play first test. In the first test pacers of Sri Lanka dominated our pacers on a batting paradise. I think Bangladesh pacers deserves credit for the second test as they did better than SL pacers, then again should SJ take credit for Robiul?

Habib
March 31, 2013, 09:55 AM
I would like to know what's the coach's logic behind bringing in Rubel to replace Zia? It's almost as if he is hoping against hope the pacers will come good so that he will take the credit. Didn't turn out that way at all, right Shane?
Even if we win the match in the end, SJ will still be at fault for choosing Rubel and SRK.

Fazal
March 31, 2013, 10:22 AM
I would like to know what's the coach's logic behind bringing in Rubel to replace Zia? It's almost as if he is hoping against hope the pacers will come good so that he will take the credit. Didn't turn out that way at all, right Shane?
Even if we win the match in the end, SJ will still be at fault for choosing Rubel and SRK.


I would also like to ask the same question to the team selector. Why not zia? But unlike you, I cannot exclusively direct that question to JS only. Because I am not sure its JS, who exclusively selects the final 11. He is still interim HC, I doubt he has the same power as a typical HC. I have a felling Mushfiq, some selctors has/have lot to say about the team selection.


Plus see the other thread about justification about Musfiq about his bowling rotation. You can have a strategy suggested by the coach, but its the captain who makes decision on the field based on ever changing situation on the field, there is little a coach can do in that aspect ... after all a coach is not a fortune teller cannot spoon feed the captain exactly how the game will turn out over by over while the team is fielding.

So yes there are questions, but some of these questions should not be exclusively directed to JS only. There may be multiple culprits.

Habib
March 31, 2013, 10:28 AM
Blaming the selectors and the captain? Sure thing. They suck. But now that the squad has been given to SJ, the least he can do is to pick the best XI from that which he doesn't do most of the time IMO. Just because the captain and selectors suck, doesn't mean the coach is above criticism, especially the HC.

Fazal
March 31, 2013, 10:38 AM
There are two questions:

1. Are you happy with the selections of the bowlers in T20? If not, then your blame should be directed towards everybody that was involved in the selection of the team. Unless we know for sure that it was JS who exclusively selected the team or made some specific decision, I think its not fair to just blaming him.

2. Are you happy with the bowling rotation and the usage of part timers? If not, then the blame should be mainly directed towards Musfiq, not JS.

Fazal
March 31, 2013, 10:42 AM
Blaming the selectors and the captain? Sure thing. They suck. But now that the squad has been given to SJ, the least he can do is to pick the best XI from that which he doesn't do most of the time IMO. Just because the captain and selectors suck, doesn't mean the coach is above criticism, especially the HC.

Are you sure he was given the exclusive power to select the team? You really believe that?

Please check your message. You were only blaming JS for that, not even mentioning about other possible culprits. And that was my point.

Unless you know some inside information that tends you to believable that its only JS who selected the team, I tend to believe Musfiq as well as selectors were involved along with the coach.

Habib
March 31, 2013, 11:01 AM
There are two questions:

1. Are you happy with the selections of the bowlers in T20? If no, it should be directed towards everybody that was involved in the selection of the team. Unless we know for sure that it was JS who exclusively selected the team, I think its not fair to just blaming him.

2. Are you happy with the bowling rotation and the usage of pert timers? If not, then the blame should be mainly directed towards Musfiq, not JS.

1. No. In fact I am not happy with the selections in all 3 formats.

2. No.

Now I have some questions:

1. After the squad has been given, can we not expect the HC to select the best XI from that and not choose proven culprits like Shahadat and Rubel over MH rubel and Zia?

2. Can the HC not give our captain advise regarding the usage of part timers?

3. Since our HC is also a pace bowling coach, has there been any improvement with the pacers?

4. If the HC is not involved with the selection, can't advise the captain on strategy, can't improve the pacers, what exactly is his role in the team management?

BD_TigerZ
March 31, 2013, 11:14 AM
Facts

Batting-nothing
Bowling-nothing
Fielding-nothing

Strategies-nothing

Thats the fact..but we still be stuck with him since he has been with the team some time.
:mad:

Fazal
March 31, 2013, 11:15 AM
Now I have some questions:

1. After the squad has been given, can we not expect the HC to select the best XI from that and not choosing proven culprits like Shahadat and Rubel over MH rubel and Zia?

2. Can the HC not give Mushy advise regarding the usage of part timers?

3. Since our HC is also a pace bowling coach, has there been any improvement with the pacers?

4. If he is not involved with the selection, can't advise the captain on strategy, can't improve the pacers, what exactly is his role in the team?

1. Yes you can expect, but the reality is different. And we need to live in real world. We know from past: a) selectors are often involved in influencing final 11. b) Captain have lot to say about final 11, b) We have an established and accomplished Captain and interim coach who may not be staying beyond 1 year. So it not hard to guess why JS will have less influence selecting the final 11 than a typical HC in an ideal situation.

2. Yes he can give advice to Captain about part timers, but ultimate responsibility lies on Mushfiq. We don't know whether JS has given that advice to not. Do we have any information about that one way or another? If we don't know, then blaming him not giving advice is just speculation, nothing much.

3. We all agree the answer is no. Also we all agree as a bowling coach its not much he has accomplished. But as a HC, its a different story. There are multiple issues: and that's why some people already suggested to hire a good Fb coach, BCB need to make some grass root activities to finds new talent with brian, etc.

4. Please read my messages. As a coach, he should have some part of responsibility about selection of the final 11, but he is not the only one who exclusively selects the final 11, its fair to assume. Again read your message and my message.... where you exclusively blaming only JS, I am saying there were multiple people who most likely selected the team and should share the blame.

Habib
March 31, 2013, 11:26 AM
^Sorry Fazal bhai, but I didn't get the answer to my 4th question- what is his role in the team management exactly?
Surely not taking the salary at the end of each month?

Fazal
March 31, 2013, 11:34 AM
Let me try again:

>>4. If he is not involved with the selection, can't advise the captain on strategy, can't improve the pacers, what exactly is his role in the team?


4. he should be involved and I am pretty sure he is involved. But I am also sure that other people were also involved in the team selection. About strategy, yes he can and he should give advice. But a) Coach cannot spoon feed every possible scenarios while the team is fielding; b) Coach cannot force the captain to follow the strategy. We have other past coaches in our team publicly claimed that our players doesn't listen to their instructions. And that is our tract record of our players.

If you ask me, if you can support the HC with some good specialized coaches, the role of the HC can be something that Dav provided. That's why I am saying there is no point to spent lots of money in high profile HC. Lets spent the money by providing him with some good specialized coaches.

Habib
March 31, 2013, 11:46 AM
Let me try again:

>>4. If he is not involved with the selection, can't advise the captain on strategy, can't improve the pacers, what exactly is his role in the team?


4. he should be involved and I am pretty sure he is involved. But I am also sure that other people were also involved in the team selection. About strategy, yes he can and he should give advice. But a) Coach cannot spoon feed every possible scenarios while the team is fielding; b) Coach cannot force the captain to follow the strategy. We have other coached in out team and they at some points publicly claimed that our players doesn't listen to their instructions. And that is our tract record of pour players.

If you ask me, if you can support the HC with some good specialized coaches, the role of the HC can be something that Dav provided. That's why I am saying there is no point to spent lots of money in high profile HC. Lets spent the money by providing him with some good specialized coaches.

So he will basically take the credit for the work of other specialized coaches? Awesome. Since you were saying we need to live in real world, you should also know BCB never hire any specialized coach having the same specialization as the HC and personally I agree with them. Siddons asked for a batting coach too and didn't get any.
Alright, let's agree to disagree (strongly on my part) on this issue since neither of us will change the mind of the other.

Fazal
March 31, 2013, 12:12 PM
So he will basically take the credit for the work of other specialized coaches? Awesome. Since you were saying we need to live in real world, you should also know BCB never hire any specialized coach having the same specialization as the HC and personally I agree with them. Siddons asked for a batting coach too and didn't get any.
Alright, let's agree to disagree (strongly on my part) on this issue since neither of us will change the mind of the other.

If a FB coach under him excels, the FB coach should get the credit, that's what we are always doing, don't we?

Rightfully or wrongfully, the HC should get credit based on overall performance of the team.


About Siddon, he was a good batting coach but a lousy HC. If Siddon was still here you wouldn't see all these new players. He prefered to work with a smaller core players and he publickly said that if he is extended he would like to keep the same core players. Also he publicy said that 230 is a good score for us (in ODI). Now atleast we are seeing we are targeting bigger score and winning some exciting games. Also we are seeing really great new talent in the team.... and I see hope at the end of the tunnel. Ofcourse FB is a concern, But it was always a concern to us and it will be regardless whoever we get as HC.


If I have a choice , I will take JS over Siddon as HC


Today we lost for three main reasons:

1. Choice of FBs. Don't know if Zia was fit to play or not.
2. Rotation of bowlers and use/non-use of part time bowlers
3. bad umpiring.

One one has something to do with JS (with other co-culprits)

Habib
March 31, 2013, 12:20 PM
I dunno why you are criticizing JS (Jamie Siddons) here since I brought him up just as an example of BCB's policy, not to debate whether he is better than SJ(Shane Jurgensen) or not. As I said I can't agree with your logic behind supporting SJ and you are in favor of him, so let's agree to disagree.

zsayeed
March 31, 2013, 12:25 PM
BanglaCricket Auntie ‏@BCAuntie 2h
@TheJurgs Mr. Coacher do u need the help with coaching our the pacers? They r looking like very helpless like orphan. #bdvssl #helpwanting

Mav
March 31, 2013, 12:27 PM
should fire their own butts

ms01
March 31, 2013, 12:32 PM
Below average coach was rumoured to be sacked as Bowling coach and then become head coach.

ReZ_1
March 31, 2013, 12:35 PM
SJ being a fast bowler gives preference to our fast bowlers even if they are worst in quality than the spinners.. and he successfully installed it in mushy's head

bujhee kom
March 31, 2013, 12:36 PM
BanglaCricket Auntie ‏@BCAuntie 2h
@TheJurgs Mr. Coacher do u need the help with coaching our the pacers? They r looking like very helpless like orphan. #bdvssl #helpwanting

Arrey Sayeed mama, apni-i shei BCAuntie dekhi!!! I thought it was our Zinat all this time...Eitaki mami's account? You and mami both are bloggers, big writers' family!!:up:

zsayeed
March 31, 2013, 12:37 PM
Arrey Sayeed mama, apni-i shei BCAuntie dekhi!!! I thought it was our Zinat all this time...Eitaki mami's account? You and mami both are bloggers, big writers' family!!:up:

narey dada - ki jey bolen - amar eto imagination nai!

ms01
March 31, 2013, 12:39 PM
The day Yes Voters outclass NO voters will be the end of SJ Era.

AsifTheManRahman
March 31, 2013, 01:03 PM
This nonsense has to stop. It doesn't take a genius to realize that our pacers are crap and have no future. Yet the selectors pick the same brainless pie chuckers, our coach doesn't do jack to help them, the management keeps picking them in the XI and our captain keeps bowling them. How much failure do they need to experience before they get that our pacers are no good?

This was the last game of the tour. Our pacers had already been beaten up badly regardless of the format. Why couldn't we, under these circumstances, go with only one useless pacer instead of two? Why couldn't we play Zia, have him open the bowling, given that the last time he had bowled in a T20 his SR was 4.5? Why did we have to go with someone who scores 50s and 100s left and right with his bowling? Zia is not a permanent solution, but maybe we would have won the match today if he had bowled instead of SRK. Why couldn't we just use him as a stop gap solution for this one match?

And Mushy, how incompetent of a captain can you be? Do you really think Shohag/Razzak would have given away more runs than SRK had they bowled in the death? If you do, that means you have the kind of faith in SRK's ability that can only indicate there's something very wrong with your head. Do you really believe Nasir/Ash would have given away 25 RPO if given the ball in the middle of the inning? Eshob kon dhoroner ahammoki ami bujhi na.

Yes, our best pacers are injured. Yes, the rest of them are crap. But seriously, a few minor adjustments here and there could have ensured we win this match (or even the ODI series) if our management had the brains to realize our pacers aren't any good early enough. Even if that meant we'd be using stop gap solutions, it would have been worth it and it would have seen us through at least this tour.

I don't know if Shane should be fired, but this sort of mindlessness has to stop. The pacers come in and bowl rubbish after glorious rubbish every delivery, get whipped and act like they are surprised. There's no strategy and the coach isn't doing his job at all.

HereWeGo
March 31, 2013, 01:12 PM
I am just wondering...who dropped our only T20 specialist in the team (Zia) to accommodate a bowler who is regarded amongst the selectors circle as a Test Specialist (Shahadat)...

Also Not give a chance to the bowler who has been one of the most economical in BPL T20 tournament (Mosharraf), to accommodate the batsman who probably had the worst record in the recently concluded bplt20 (mominul)... :D

ReZ_1
March 31, 2013, 01:33 PM
I am just wondering...who dropped our only T20 specialist in the team (Zia) to accommodate a bowler who is regarded amongst the selectors circle as a Test Specialist (Shahadat)...

Also Not give a chance to the bowler who has been one of the most economical in BPL T20 tournament (Mosharraf), to accommodate the batsman who probably had the worst record in the recently concluded bplt20 (mominul)... :D

spoke my mind:up:

BD Tigers
March 31, 2013, 01:37 PM
I am just wondering...who dropped our only T20 specialist in the team (Zia) to accommodate a bowler who is regarded amongst the selectors circle as a Test Specialist (Shahadat)...

Also Not give a chance to the bowler who has been one of the most economical in BPL T20 tournament (Mosharraf), to accommodate the batsman who probably had the worst record in the recently concluded bplt20 (mominul)... :D

Absolutely spot on...some of the think tanks are over thinking themselves...unbelievable :facepalm:

Tiger Manc
March 31, 2013, 02:42 PM
I am just wondering...who dropped our only T20 specialist in the team (Zia) to accommodate a bowler who is regarded amongst the selectors circle as a Test Specialist (Shahadat)...

Also Not give a chance to the bowler who has been one of the most economical in BPL T20 tournament (Mosharraf), to accommodate the batsman who probably had the worst record in the recently concluded bplt20 (mominul)... :D

Pretty much said what I was thinking. We've seen some really strange decisions on this tour. Picking Shahadat in the ODIs and then picking him for the T20 AFTER he got smashed in the ODI. Picking Ziaur for the ODIs but then dropping him for the T20.

BANFAN
March 31, 2013, 03:38 PM
1. Yes you can expect, but the reality is different. And we need to live in real world. We know from past: a) selectors are often involved in influencing final 11. b) Captain have lot to say about final 11, . to make some grass root activities to finds new talent with brian, etc.

.....................

Eishob assumption bondho korle bhalo lage..... They never dictate coach and captain, they can suggest, but coach and captain is the final authority... Let him come out and say that, since it's his job.... Assumption Koira support deyar dorkar nai....taile we all can assume one this or the other to establish anything....

It's clear, the selectors never select a playing 11 like a dictator...that has been spoken enough...

BANFAN
March 31, 2013, 03:40 PM
It was very simple to go with Zia instead of Shahadat....bowling and batting both way...everyone knows, reducing pace is necessary in T20 ... If a coach doesn't have this much ability or spine to establish that...then he is a dead wood...

reyme
March 31, 2013, 04:27 PM
1. Yes you can expect, but the reality is different. And we need to live in real world. We know from past: a) selectors are often involved in influencing final 11. b) Captain have lot to say about final 11, b) We have an established and accomplished Captain and interim coach who may not be staying beyond 1 year. So it not hard to guess why JS will have less influence selecting the final 11 than a typical HC in an ideal situation..

1. So basically he does not select final 11. Its the selectors and Captain does. He has his "say" but since "apparently" he has no "say", he is NOT responsible for team selection. So he cant be blamed.

2. He is a pace bowling coach. So what pace bowling sucks? He needs specialized pace bowling coach. Also our paces our useless, so it cant be blamed to pace bowling coach. Its all our pacers fault.

3. Mushy captaincy sucks. So coach cant be blamed since Mushy dont listen to the coach. All wrong decisions on the field should be blamed to the captain.

4. There are improvement in batting which is simply not his specilization, and if we do well, and HC gets full credit!

Question: So basically you have a HC coach who dont have any say on final 11, and is forced to cave in selectors and captains demand. What kind of a yes man deadwood incompetent HC is this? why is in in this post if he has no freedom?

Question: He has a lot of power, and HE selects the team. what kind of an idiotic decisons are these playing wrong team in all fomats of crickets all the time? If he is selcting the team, then HC simply lacks basic cricket and common sense.

Quesion: Blame the captain for on field decision. Clue: Captain is out there to implement coaches game plan. If the captain is making mistakes the coach should be blamed for this 100%. If the plan was to use only regular bowlers regardless how much they suck they I would question coach'es gameplan. So you want a coach whom the captain dont listen to or the coach is too clueless to have a basic gameplan. when will he relaize Spin is our strength? we are no Aussie or NZ and we must play to our strength: Spin!

Summay: Shane Jurgenses is no Ian Pont, Jamie Siddons, Dav Whatmore, Saqlain Mushtaq, Gordon Greenidge or not even as low as Mohsin Kamal. To me he the worst ever coach who has no positive impact what so ever. There was a reason he was fired from NZ and no other team wants him. There was a reason why he was so happy when given this 1 year deal. You play without him and we wont lose a single positive thing. Rather we will have better team selection, our useless pacers will be sidelined until they are ready and possibly we will have a much better gameplan before going each and every game.

Trust me there are plenty of local coaches out there who would do much better than him for free. Thats why no BPL team showed any interest for him. It does not matter how much one supports SJ, it is not hard to realize he is NOT the right person for the HC position. Heis a wonderful person, and I like him as a person too but he is just not good enough to be a HC for a TEST playing team.

akabir77
March 31, 2013, 06:07 PM
What is this coach doing? We wants answers. Why was Mizan not picked? Why was shahadat picked on what basis. Some one needs to answer this.

cricbook
March 31, 2013, 09:03 PM
I think i wana give him one more chance... He did his best... What he will do ... When our pacer called aunty pace ???

Fazal
March 31, 2013, 10:03 PM
1. So basically he does not select final 11. Its the selectors and Captain does. He has his "say" but since "apparently" he has no "say", he is NOT responsible for team selection. So he cant be blamed.

That's not what I said. Please don't make up stuff. Please re-read what I said. When Habib was complaining team selection solely balming the coach, I pointed it out most likely the team of 11 is selected based on feedback from coach, captain and some of the selectors.




2. He is a pace bowling coach. So what pace bowling sucks? He needs specialized pace bowling coach. Also our paces our useless, so it cant be blamed to pace bowling coach. Its all our pacers fault.

Why you are bringing this up? Almost all of us agree that SJ track record as a bowling coach with us is not good. So what's your point here when we all agree in this point?


3. Mushy captaincy sucks. So coach cant be blamed since Mushy dont listen to the coach. All wrong decisions on the field should be blamed to the captain.

Whether Mushy's captaincy suck or not that's a different issue. But if on-field bowling rotation and bowler usage is at question, captain is the one mainly responsible. In cricket establsih captain carry lots of weight, and Mushy is an established and accomplished captain. So its fair to say for on-field decisions, good or bad, Mushy is mainly responsible .


4. There are improvement in batting which is simply not his specilization, and if we do well, and HC gets full credit!

Sure. HC is judged by over-all performance of the series. And I am happy with overall performance of the series.


Question: So basically you have a HC coach who dont have any say on final 11, and is forced to cave in selectors and captains demand. What kind of a yes man deadwood incompetent HC is this? why is in in this post if he has no freedom?

Please check out previous head coaches. And very few selected the 11 by there own. It used to be a combined decision, and its fair to assume its still the same. And as an interim HC its also fair to say, that he may have less to say.


If the "Yes man dead wood" can give me a better result than a dictator HC who may not be interested to stay here long term anyway , I am ok with that so called economically cheaper deadwood HC who can give me better end result than some of our past live-wood HCs.





Question: He has a lot of power, and HE selects the team. what kind of an idiotic decisons are these playing wrong team in all fomats of crickets all the time? If he is selcting the team, then HC simply lacks basic cricket and common sense.

Please rephrase your question, its hard to understand what you are trying to ask.

We always used to select wrong team in all fomats of crickets all the time in the past. Actually now it's kind of giving in the right direction (a bit) in recent times. Please check past team selections under different coaches in the past and you will see how absurd some of the selections were in the past.




Quesion: Blame the captain for on field decision. Clue: Captain is out there to implement coaches game plan. If the captain is making mistakes the coach should be blamed for this 100%. If the plan was to use only regular bowlers regardless how much they suck they I would question coach'es gameplan. So you want a coach whom the captain dont listen to or the coach is too clueless to have a basic gameplan. when will he relaize Spin is our strength? we are no Aussie or NZ and we must play to our strength: Spin!

Clue to you question: We had exactly same type of questions raised by fans against other past HC and captions. We also have public accusation by ex-coaches that our players doesn't listen to the coach's instruction.

My point is JS may not be the best coach, but he is eager, available, cheap and showing some good overall team result. Don't expect to get a BMW for the price of KIA. We don't have the money to purchase BMW, nor the BMW car dealer are interested in us because of our background, He is what he is and he is bringing some results for us, so lets wait and see what he brings in his one year.

While you may choose to complain and whine all you want, I would prefer evaluate a HC based on end results as so far I can see is nothing but positive end result in this series... I also saw positive results in WI series.....So I tend to disagree with you. May be he is lucky....then I would rather have a lucky coach in my team.


And I am so happy that so far in the poll more fans agree with me than you. Its too early to ask for his sack.... he is young, inexpensive but eager... we gave him 1 year... and I am going be wait for the full one year.... but so far I see the team is working more like a team than anytime in past.... and its bringing some good results even with all those injuries.