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tonmoy.dhaka
July 5, 2016, 09:45 AM
I hope we can use this thread to discuss about the Holy Books.

I know religion has been discussed in other threads by hijacking those thread (I am guilty of that myself). The aim is to direct all religious discussions here.

If hope everyone remains civil when discussing controvesial topics. We can all learn from each other or choose to disagree with one another (that is all of our right).

Mods: If you feel that BC is no place to discuss such a topic than feel free to remove or lock the thread.

Hope no one is banned!!

Sylheti_Beta
July 5, 2016, 09:52 AM
Agreed Tonmoy, religion has played its part in our lives good or bad. Shying away from discussion regarding religion is something we are all guilty of. As as kid I was told not ask too many questions as it would lead me towards loosing my Imaan and eventual munafiqat or murtadat, may have been the case with many others here as well(I don't know for sure). I don't have that hang up anymore.If the forum rules allow for it, I am okay. If not I will have these discussions elsewhere.

regards
Sylheti Beta

mufi_02
July 5, 2016, 10:28 AM
I agree with Tonmoy. Discussion and understanding is important. Blind faith is not.

Let's be civil in our discussions. I assume there will be some disagreements but we can be respectful and civil about it.

I will start off with this understanding of mine. It might be necessarily accurate or correct and you guys might as well disagree.

---

the notion and the oft quoted statement that "Islam is a religion of peace". I have not seen that in any religious texts. I believe it was George Bush who mentioned that in the speech and popularized the term.

Islam is neither totally pacifist nor violent religion. It is just a pragmatic religion. It realizes human conflict and war is unavoidable.

The prophet and his companions were involved in many battles. But the way it set itself apart is through the conditions and stipulations that is set forth for these situations (i.e. not hurt women/children, not destroy enemies crops, not burn etc.).

p.s. I am a layman, not a scholar, semi scholar, or anything close it.

p.s.s. I am a liberal to moderate, somewhat practicing muslim.

Simin2011
July 5, 2016, 11:41 AM
I am a believer of Allah but I don't think I know a lot of detalied informations regarding Islam.
I am tempted to put forth some questions and I apologize in advance if I offend anyone. That's not the intention. First of all, what does Islam say about placing humanity above everything? I mean can a muslim be cordial/friendly to a person of LGBT community even though he does not support the idea of it?
Doesn't out religion tell, God is the ultimate decider? No mere mortals can decide who's true Imaandaar and who's not? In that case, the terroists do not have the right to call anyone kafir and neither do we have been given the privilege of declaring them un-islamic.. isn't it?
Again apologies if I offend anyone.

tonmoy.dhaka
July 5, 2016, 11:55 AM
I am a believer of Allah but I don't think I know a lot of detalied informations regarding Islam.
I am tempted to put forth some questions and I apologize in advance if I offend anyone. That's not the intention. First of all, what does Islam say about placing humanity above everything? I mean can a muslim be cordial/friendly to a person of LGBT community even though he does not support the idea of it?
Doesn't out religion tell, God is the ultimate decider? No mere mortals can decide who's true Imaandaar and who's not? In that case, the terroists do not have the right to call anyone kafir and neither do we have been given the privilege of declaring them un-islamic.. isn't it?
Again apologies if I offend anyone.

Please someone here correct me if I am wrong.

The act of homosexuality is a sin...... But it is no less or more of a sin than pre-marital sex.

My personal opinion:
It is entirely my personal belief that "homosexuality" is not a choice since I can never be homosexual even if I want to be. As a result since God made you that way so it cannot be a sin to be one. Again that is entirely my personal deduction. Most people I know would disagree with me. Take it how you want it.

roman
July 5, 2016, 01:40 PM
Good Question Simin. My personal opinion....

Homosexuality is not a choice. But quran says its a great sin. Allah destroyed a locality because of this. (The sorty of Lut pbuh). Having said that Muslims can be/SHOULD be friendly to a homosexal person. Although they share different ideology and life style but by no means they are our enemy. We should treat them with respect. We should also respect someone who does not practice our religion. Be it Hindu, Christian, agnostic or atheist. Just because someone is criticizing our religio, we have no rights to go out there and slit his throat. :(

We have no rights to call someone kafir. How can we say someone a kafir and will end up in jahannam when God is the ultimate decider? Just because one practices Islam doesnt guarantee him/her heaven. Those who say it does, has no clue.

Simin2011
July 5, 2016, 02:22 PM
Hey Roman. I pretty much share the same opinion as you do. If God is the ultimate decider, I don't see why anyone should take the responsibilty upon themselves and execute believers of other religions as if it's their imaani duty. It's sad that few verses taken totally out of context can generate so much hatred in the terrorists' hearts.

@ Tonmoy,
If Homosexuality is not a choice, then God knows the best. I won't say anything more. I don't hate them. Nobody should. They should not be given death penalties because it's not their fault in the first place.
Religion should be a personal matter. I believe in "Live and let live". As long as nobody is unjustly attacking you for your faith, there is no reason to cast terror in people's lives by brutally killing off innocents.
I don't believe God will hate me for wanting a peaceful world where nobody causes death to innocents.

tonmoy.dhaka
July 5, 2016, 02:49 PM
I request someone who is well versed in Quran to explain Slavery in Islam specifically the fact that you can have sex with female prisoners of war. Basically a concubine becomes permissible to a man who owns her. I believe it is verse 4:24 in the holy book.

regards

tonmoy.dhaka
July 5, 2016, 05:02 PM
What verses they were reading?? :-|

http://www.ctgbarta24.com/%e0%a6%ac%e0%a6%bf%e0%a6%ad%e0%a7%80%e0%a6%b7%e0%a 6%bf%e0%a6%95%e0%a6%be%e0%a6%ae%e0%a7%9f-%e0%a6%b8%e0%a7%87%e0%a6%87-%e0%a6%95%e0%a6%be%e0%a6%b2%e0%a7%8b-%e0%a6%b0%e0%a6%be%e0%a6%a4/

Hi Anik,
No one knows what the terrorist were reading...

However I can assume one of the verses they are referring to is

98:6
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures.

Source
http://quran.com/98/6


Would be really glad if someone can shed some light on this verse. What is the context?

bujhee kom
July 5, 2016, 07:21 PM
Good Question Simin. My personal opinion....

Homosexuality is not a choice. But quran says its a great sin. Allah destroyed a locality because of this. (The sorty of Lut pbuh). Having said that Muslims can be/SHOULD be friendly to a homosexal person. Although they share different ideology and life style but by no means they are our enemy. We should treat them with respect. We should also respect someone who does not practice our religion. Be it Hindu, Christian, agnostic or atheist. Just because someone is criticizing our religio, we have no rights to go out there and slit his throat. :(

We have no rights to call someone kafir. How can we say someone a kafir and will end up in jahannam when God is the ultimate decider? Just because one practices Islam doesnt guarantee him/her heaven. Those who say it does, has no clue.

My dearest Roman, an absolutely beautiful post. It shows your beautiful heart and mind. The world needs souls like yours.

---

My dearest Tonmoy, an excellent thread. You exhibit great respect to others and are asking some very thoughtful questions.

Excellent discussion going on in here...Simin, Mufstafa and Sylhety Beta...also Dolcevita from the other thread, you guys are developing a wonderful conversation in a genuinely stimulating and respectful manner.

Tigers_eye
July 5, 2016, 07:48 PM
I am a believer of Allah but I don't think I know a lot of detalied informations regarding Islam.
I am tempted to put forth some questions and I apologize in advance if I offend anyone. That's not the intention. First of all, what does Islam say about placing humanity above everything? I mean can a muslim be cordial/friendly to a person of LGBT community even though he does not support the idea of it?
Doesn't out religion tell, God is the ultimate decider? No mere mortals can decide who's true Imaandaar and who's not? In that case, the terroists do not have the right to call anyone kafir and neither do we have been given the privilege of declaring them un-islamic.. isn't it?
Again apologies if I offend anyone. To him our soul belongs, I seek refuge.

I am not a scholar. My understanding of this is, LGBT people are Allah Subhana watala's creation. Yet they cannot be as bad as "Pheraun", who declared he was "god" Astagfirullah. Even to him Musa (A) and harun (A) was sent and was told specifically to

"say (warm) to him in GENTLE WORDS".

Allah didn't ask the Prophets to go kill him, or destroy him or be his Manager.

For the people of Lut (A), Allah didn't instruct Lut (A) to destroy them, fight against them. He was only a warner, just like ALL other Prophets. It is Allah, who decrees punishment.

If the Prophets are only a warner, they how come we, the bearer of Islam, want to become more than a warner? Why do we want to take up decree on our own hands without clear instruction from Allah Subhana wa tala (via Gibreal)?

We are to be gentle, humble, gracious to others so that, may be Allah would make us good examples and change their heart.

Remember how barbaric the Quaraish was and then Allah changed their hearts.
+++
Homosexuality is a choice. One can hate the action but cannot hate the person. One should let them know about their action and warn them. That is the extent of it.
+++
None of us are a manager over others. Nor we have the power to be come one. We can only speak the truth. The Truth is in the Quran. We should all start to read, understand, apply, and convey what's in it.

Not just go to Tawaweeh and standup and sit down and not understanding anything of what is being said. Or memorize heaps of scriptures and not understand what we memorized.

Jadukor
July 5, 2016, 08:28 PM
Homosexuality is also present among animals and hence it is not a choice. People are born that way.

Jadukor
July 5, 2016, 08:38 PM
I would like to know how many of you consider Sharia to be relevant in modern society. Would you prefer Sharia law over existing man made laws?

NoName
July 5, 2016, 08:41 PM
No, Sharia law would have been apt during our prophet's time but way too many aspects of it is extremely primitive in current times. Not to mention easily abused.

Sylheti_Beta
July 6, 2016, 05:03 AM
Religion/Deen requires believers to read, introspect and be learned. The ideal goal is for all believers to have a full understanding of scripture. In addition to the 5 fards, one should strive to be faazil/a scholar (not to be misconstrued with fajlamo or faizlami in Bengali).

One of the basic aspects which deserve special attention is the actual chronology of how the Surah(s)/Ayah(s) were revealed(Nazil). Barely looking at the Surah number is not enough.

For example:

Surah Al-Faatiha is Surah number 1; but in actual chronology its number 5; it is a Mecca Surah.
Surah At-Tawba is Surah number 9; but in actual chronology its number 113; it is a Medina Surah.


What's also very important is to understand the concept of Naksh(Tafsir) or Abrogation, a concept whereby a latter verse supersedes an earlier verse. Generally, Meccan verses are early verses and Medina verses are latter day verses. There are three types of Naksh.

1- Abrogation of one Quranic verse by another.
2- Abrogation of a previous Law in a previous religion by a Quranic verse/Law.
3- Abrogation of a Quranic verse by a Hadith/sunnah. Naskh Biltafseel-This one is controversial to some who feel that it constitutes tampering with the Quran.

I have come across several folks who quote verses from scripture liberally without reviewing these concepts. Its not just Muslims who don't study their scripture, people of other faiths do the same as well. This I feel is primarily based on need and applicability from a very personalized standpoint; in modern times people can and do turn to contemporary scientific knowledge and social norms for reference. This cant be stopped.

I do not consider myself a scholar or faazil, I am just a student from my days as a teen till now. Whatever I share is based researching whatever I have, of scripture.

Sylheti_Beta
July 6, 2016, 05:13 AM
No, Sharia law would have been apt during our prophet's time but way too many aspects of it is extremely primitive in current times. Not to mention easily abused.
Very true, and yet a mere mention of this will ruffle feathers. But then in today's information age; thuggery and threats don't get very far.

Sylheti_Beta
July 6, 2016, 05:20 AM
I don't believe God will hate me for wanting a peaceful world where nobody causes death to innocents.
:applause: :clap:

Simin2011
July 6, 2016, 10:47 AM
Sylheti_Beta and Tigers_eye, thanks for such wonderful posts. Very insightful. Appreciate it.

Just read the news of one more Bangladeshi IS terrorist, residing in Syria, who was also a former student of my current educational institute. How terrifying. :(

tonmoy.dhaka
July 6, 2016, 01:17 PM
While Homosexuality has been discussed in depth both in this thread and another earlier thread, I would be glad if someone takes the time to explain these two verses as mentioned earlier in this thread. Produced below for clarity

98:6 (Non-believers and compared to the worst of creatures)


Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures

http://quran.com/98/6

and



4:24 (Permission to have sex-slaves)

And [also prohibited to you are all] married women except those your right hands possess. [This is] the decree of Allah upon you. And lawful to you are [all others] beyond these, [provided] that you seek them [in marriage] with [gifts from] your property, desiring chastity, not unlawful sexual intercourse. So for whatever you enjoy [of marriage] from them, give them their due compensation as an obligation. And there is no blame upon you for what you mutually agree to beyond the obligation. Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Wise.

http://quran.com/4/24

Tigers_eye
July 6, 2016, 02:31 PM
While Homosexuality has been discussed in depth both in this thread and another earlier thread, I would be glad if someone takes the time to explain these two verses as mentioned earlier in this thread. Produced below for clarity

98:6 (Non-believers and compared to the worst of creatures)


Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures

http://quran.com/98/6
What is your question on this one? This is as straight forward verse as it can be.

People of Scripture = Jews, Christians, Muslims. Polytheists are idol worshippers. Associating anything with Allah.

If they disbelieve, then hellfire awaits for them. Disbelieving in One God and His attributes. Putting trust on anything else other than Allah Subhana watala.

The next verse clearly mentions who will be in Heaven. Believers.

The residence in Hell-fire is forever. Just like Heaven is for ever.

Those are the fruits that we will reap. We will not be short changed. Do Good and if our deeds are heavy, by the Mercy of Allah we will be in Heaven. Do bad and Allah is free of need. He doesn't need our prayers, suplications. He is the Exalted One, the Most High. It is us who need the prayers.

Allah is the creator. We are His creation. Ending up in Hell-fire is the worst possible place can be. When we had a choice to change the course.

That is what I understand. Allah knows best.

Tigers_eye
July 6, 2016, 02:47 PM
...
4:24 (Permission to have sex-slaves)

And [also prohibited to you are all] married women except those your right hands possess. [This is] the decree of Allah upon you. And lawful to you are [all others] beyond these, [provided] that you seek them [in marriage] with [gifts from] your property, desiring chastity, not unlawful sexual intercourse. So for whatever you enjoy [of marriage] from them, give them their due compensation as an obligation. And there is no blame upon you for what you mutually agree to beyond the obligation. Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Wise.

http://quran.com/4/24
No explanation is needed on this one. We do not have slavery. This verse at this point, has no meaning to current day of affairs. We need to worry about the ones that is more related to our times. Zakat and property distribution.

tonmoy.dhaka
July 6, 2016, 02:58 PM
What is your question on this one? This is as straight forward verse as it can be.

People of Scripture = Jews, Christians, Muslims. Polytheists are idol worshippers. Associating anything with Allah.

If they disbelieve, then hellfire awaits for them. Disbelieving in One God and His attributes. Putting trust on anything else other than Allah Subhana watala.

The next verse clearly mentions who will be in Heaven. Believers.

The residence in Hell-fire is forever. Just like Heaven is for ever.

Those are the fruits that we will reap. We will not be short changed. Do Good and if our deeds are heavy, by the Mercy of Allah we will be in Heaven. Do bad and Allah is free of need. He doesn't need our prayers, suplications. He is the Exalted One, the Most High. It is us who need the prayers.

Allah is the creator. We are His creation. Ending up in Hell-fire is the worst possible place can be. When we had a choice to change the course.

That is what I understand. Allah knows best.

My only reservation was calling any non-believer the "worst of creatures". That is a very stong language . It is like saying someone might be a great humanitarian but he is the worst of mankind just because he does not believe.
Anyways, it is what it is. Thanks for the clarification.

tonmoy.dhaka
July 6, 2016, 03:02 PM
No explanation is needed on this one. We do not have slavery. This verse at this point, has no meaning to current day of affairs. We need to worry about the ones that is more related to our times. Zakat and property distribution.

I hope you are right.. but it does give legitimacy in having sex slaves amongst the prisoners of war. Thanks again.

brockley
July 6, 2016, 04:31 PM
As a chrsitian I would say spiritual renewal.
I guess that could equate in Islam.

brockley
July 6, 2016, 04:35 PM
I know there are different views on homosexuality.
I'm divided Jesus to the adulterer sin no more.

To the opposite some people are just formed that way.
While I do not believe in gay marriage,I do believe what you do behind your own doors is your own business.
As to homosexuals show of affection in public I am amicable,but not to displays other than that but I am the same with hetererosexuals.
Sexual moves should be not in public homosexual or hetereo,because it makes people uncomfortable.

horizon
July 6, 2016, 05:19 PM
I don't see much issue with religion. I use my own brain to make choices. Based on those choices I live my life - peacefully I guess. I believe religious or non-religious, everyone does the same.

For the religious, if you anyway have to sort out "bad" parts of the religious books and re-interpret/contextualize them using your brain, why not use it anyway? Even if books are from God, it's interpreted by Humans with their limited ability. So implementing what's said in the book could end up being futile. Anyway, it's up to you ...

brockley
July 6, 2016, 05:30 PM
Meaning everyone let live.
I treat people as they treat me,the best policy,but remember to forgive my enemies,no matter how hard that is.

tonmoy.dhaka
July 6, 2016, 09:23 PM
I don't see much issue with religion. I use my own brain to make choices. Based on those choices I live my life - peacefully I guess. I believe religious or non-religious, everyone does the same.

For the religious, if you anyway have to sort out "bad" parts of the religious books and re-interpret/contextualize them using your brain, why not use it anyway? Even if books are from God, it's interpreted by Humans with their limited ability. So implementing what's said in the book could end up being futile. Anyway, it's up to you ...

That is not following the Holy book based religion though... that is following your own version of the religion.

Personally, my best friend is a non muslim, my scripture says he is the worst of creatures. I cannot even call him my friend if I truly believe in the holy scripture. I am sure same is the case with almost everyone. We follow our own imaginary version of the religion and we believe we are doing it right.

Sylheti_Beta
July 7, 2016, 03:28 AM
That is not following the Holy book based religion though... that is following your own version of the religion.

Personally, my best friend is a non muslim, my scripture says he is the worst of creatures. I cannot even call him my friend if I truly believe in the holy scripture. I am sure same is the case with almost everyone. We follow our own imaginary version of the religion and we believe we are doing it right.

Precisely, therein lies the conundrum. Some choose to disregard it some don't.
There are many instructions to disbelievers in general and Jews in particular; for example-Sura Al-Jumu'ah 62.6
"O you who are Jews, if you claim that you are allies of Allah , excluding the (other) people, then wish for death, if you should be truthful."

Abrahamic religions have this distinction between believers and non believers, the root from where the hatred may stem.
Many here take a benevolent view and pick/choose as per their convenience. Many others will take such distinctions otherwise and indulge in murder and mayhem. A common murderer will cite baser motives and be derided, a murdering fundamentalist will cite his understanding of scripture and be hailed by like minded zealots as a hero.

Islam does not allow for cherry picking from the Quran. One may use hadees at best for the sake of explanation/elaboration/additional information but that's about it. The moment one cherry picks she/he may be on the munafiq/mushrik tightrope. A believer is not at liberty to use imagination to follow the deen, as scripture is considered perfect, irrefutable and immutable.

As the Turkish PM Erdogan once put it across unabashedly in an interview;"These descriptions are very ugly, it is offensive and an insult to our religion. There is no moderate or immoderate Islam. Islam is Islam and that’s it." A view that scholars too will back up.

Not celebrating Eid this time, have a heavy heart.

Sylheti_Beta
July 7, 2016, 05:46 AM
Missed this one.
Surah Al-An'am [6:114]
[Say], "Then is it other than Allah I should seek as judge while it is He who has revealed to you the Book explained in detail?" And those to whom We [previously] gave the Scripture know that it is sent down from your Lord in truth, so never be among the doubters.

tonmoy.dhaka
July 7, 2016, 04:35 PM
Missed this one.
Surah Al-An'am [6:114]
[Say], "Then is it other than Allah I should seek as judge while it is He who has revealed to you the Book explained in detail?" And those to whom We [previously] gave the Scripture know that it is sent down from your Lord in truth, so never be among the doubters.

Prophet Mohammad SAW(pbuh) was at war with Jewish tribe at the time of revelation , there are quite a few verses that is specifically targetted to the Jewish people.

Sylheti_Beta
July 20, 2016, 05:35 AM
People across the world feel the importance of spirituality in their lives, but a majority remain uncommitted to organized religion.

For many of them, the reasoning is the same for not ascribing to organized religion. These people may not necessarily reject the teachings of historical figureheads of religions, like Islam, Christianity or Buddhism; au-contraire actually. Leaving Hinduism out here as no one person or Guru can claim exclusive rights as its de-facto leader.

Rather, they understand that once the spiritual paths those great teachers represent become institutionalized (organized religion), they start losing their power of enlightenment and instead become tools for violence, exploitation, and fame.

In fact, much of what humanity remembers about its collective past centers around large-scale, religiously-legitimized violence. It takes a willful ignorance of history to deny this fact. This is similar to state sponsored and legitimized violence orchestrated by Communists and Nazi socialists in history. But that’s where the similarities end. The latter can’t hold a candle in front of the genocide inspired by religion in terms of body counts or the sheer scale of depredation and bigotry.

Now, to most people religion and organized religion are one and the same. That’s primarily because non-organized religion is no longer common or recognized. And yet, there is nothing to stop anyone else from creating their own religion and never telling anyone about it.

Organized religions often bring out the worst of religion. Before you start tearing my throat out or write me off as anti-religion, hear me out. Religion is structured belief. As such, one of the problems with organized religion is that it expects all of its members to conform to the same system of belief. This is why there are so many branches of religions. When a group from a certain religion disagrees with one or more of that religion’s beliefs strongly enough, they break away and form their own religion. History is testament to this fact, in the several splits and variations that all religions have undergone.

So thinking that one size fits all is merely wishful thinking, people are different and will strive to remain so; overtly or covertly.

bujhee kom
July 20, 2016, 12:12 PM
^^That is an excellent, wonderful post by Sylhety Fuwa bhaiya! I really appreciate your posts and thoughts in the forum.

tonmoy.dhaka
July 20, 2016, 02:05 PM
People across the world feel the importance of spirituality in their lives, but a majority remain uncommitted to organized religion.

For many of them, the reasoning is the same for not ascribing to organized religion. These people may not necessarily reject the teachings of historical figureheads of religions, like Islam, Christianity or Buddhism; au-contraire actually. Leaving Hinduism out here as no one person or Guru can claim exclusive rights as its de-facto leader.

Rather, they understand that once the spiritual paths those great teachers represent become institutionalized (organized religion), they start losing their power of enlightenment and instead become tools for violence, exploitation, and fame.

In fact, much of what humanity remembers about its collective past centers around large-scale, religiously-legitimized violence. It takes a willful ignorance of history to deny this fact. This is similar to state sponsored and legitimized violence orchestrated by Communists and Nazi socialists in history. But that’s where the similarities end. The latter can’t hold a candle in front of the genocide inspired by religion in terms of body counts or the sheer scale of depredation and bigotry.

Now, to most people religion and organized religion are one and the same. That’s primarily because non-organized religion is no longer common or recognized. And yet, there is nothing to stop anyone else from creating their own religion and never telling anyone about it.

Organized religions often bring out the worst of religion. Before you start tearing my throat out or write me off as anti-religion, hear me out. Religion is structured belief. As such, one of the problems with organized religion is that it expects all of its members to conform to the same system of belief. This is why there are so many branches of religions. When a group from a certain religion disagrees with one or more of that religion’s beliefs strongly enough, they break away and form their own religion. History is testament to this fact, in the several splits and variations that all religions have undergone.

So thinking that one size fits all is merely wishful thinking, people are different and will strive to remain so; overtly or covertly.

It is really important for people to distinguish between right and wrong. And what is wrong is wrong irrespective of the person committing the wrong or where it is written.
This is the simple lesson I want my children to learn.

It is unacceptable in modern times to marry kids. Please note my grand-parents married at the age of 15 and it turned out well, however times changed .

It is unacceptable to hit women under any circumstances. Stoning amputation and beheading as forms of punishment is inhumane

Everyone from every religion (or no religion) should be equal, you are not the worst of creature because you do not subscribe to a religion of choice.

Whatever consenting adults do in the privacy of their room is their wish, it is in no way the duty of the state to judge them or punish them.

People must be free to preach anything they wish as long as the message does not propagate hate or incite people to commit crimes.

At the end, respect everyone, live and let live.

The above is all common sense but it is not that common to be honest.

bujhee kom
July 20, 2016, 05:00 PM
Absolutely beautiful post, dear Tonmoy! In total agree with everything you said. You spoke the truth.

Sylheti_Beta
July 21, 2016, 04:31 AM
The above is all common sense but it is not that common to be honest.

All valid points. And as far as common sense goes it's really not that common.
A major failure of organized religion lies in its exclusivist claims. Several religions believe in a "good place" and a "bad place". There are many that don't, but a great deal of mainstream religions do. To be eligible for the good place one must be a good person, and the opposite is true for the bad place. Yet a startling number of religions also say that one will go to the bad place simply for not believing in their religion and that one will go to the good place simply for believing in their particular religion, regardless of morality. There is also the concept of so called mercy for even the most heinous crimes committed. So many criminals ascribe to this as it allows them to commit crimes and then seek forgiveness and be redeemed. This is regardless of the blood spilled, lives taken or destroyed.

Admission to the good place, which began as a reward for good behavior, has been reduced to a gimmick. As such, the original intent of the good place and the bad place (to provide incentive for good behavior and to act as a deterrent for bad behavior, respectively) has been lost. One's morality and actions no longer matter, only their choice of belief.

Organized religions are also characterized by their need for survival. In order to survive, an organized religion must attract new members and steer people away from other religions. The way this goal is accomplished, sadly, is often through scare tactics, demonizing of competitors, and advertising. Organized religions cannot simply state their beliefs, they also tend to state that all other beliefs are wrong. In this way, religion has become difficult to distinguish from business. In fact, many of the tactics that religions employ would seem underhanded, even in the business world.
Many businesses wish they could get away with claiming that those who buy from their competitors will suffer and burn in a "bad place" for eternity after they die. :lol:

Not all organized religions are like this. Some are just a gathering of people with similar beliefs. Yet these religions tend to be smaller, largely because the tactics that other organized religions employ, while underhanded, work. To those who belong to such an accepting religion, please do not be offended by what I have said, these words are not meant for you. And to those who do belong to a mainstream organized religion, I make no judgment of you individually, only a judgment of organized religion as a whole.

dolcevita
July 21, 2016, 08:55 AM
All valid points. And as far as common sense goes it's really not that common.
A major failure of organized religion is its exclusivist claims. Several religions believe in a "good place" and a "bad place". There are many that don't, but a great deal of mainstream religions do. To be eligible for the good place one must be a good person, and the opposite is true for the bad place. Yet a startling number of religions also say that one will go to the bad place simply for not believing in their religion and that one will go to the good place simply for believing in their particular religion, regardless of morality. There is also the concept of so called mercy for even the most heinous crimes committed. So many criminals ascribe to this as it allows them to commit crimes and then seek forgiveness and be redeemed. This is regardless of the blood spilled, lives taken or destroyed.

Admission to the good place, which began as a reward for good behavior, has been reduced to a gimmick. As such, the original intent of the good place and the bad place (to provide incentive for good behavior and to act as a deterrent for bad behavior, respectively) has been lost. One's morality and actions no longer matter, only their choice of belief.

Organized religions are also characterized by their need for survival. In order to survive, an organized religion must attract new members and steer people away from other religions. The way this goal is accomplished, sadly, is often through scare tactics, demonizing of competitors, and advertising. Organized religions cannot simply state their beliefs, they also tend to state that all other beliefs are wrong. In this way, religion has become difficult to distinguish from business. In fact, many of the tactics that religions employ would seem underhanded, even in the business world.
Many businesses wish they could get away with claiming that those who buy from their competitors will suffer and burn in a "bad place" for eternity after they die. :lol:

Not all organized religions are like this. Some are just gathering of people with similar beliefs. Yet these religions tend to be smaller, largely because the tactics that other organized religions employ, while underhanded, work. To those who belong to such an accepting religion, please do not be offended by what I have said, these words are not meant for you. And to those who do belong to a mainstream organized religion, I make no judgment of you individually, only a judgment of organized religion as a whole.

The main issue with organized religions is that people who organize them, use religion to get power and do business.

For exemple : In Bangladesh religion is used for politics ( Jamaat), education (lot of islamic school, universities), finance (islamic bank, insurance), food...

Religion should be a private affair

Sylheti_Beta
July 22, 2016, 04:07 AM
The main issue with organized religions is that people who organize them, use religion to get power and do business.
Always has been and always will be the case with organized religion. It used to be the prime tool of emperors and kings to control the populace in the past. It is still used to great effect by modern day politicians and new age demagogic preachers.

The rulers have changed, the tool remains the same. To expect anything different, no matter how puritanical the populace gets in adhering to religion is futile. Disguised/Open hatred and threats, diktats, pseudo moral policing and thuggish mob behavior in general are unleashed with unfailing regularity under the umbrella of organized religion.

The underlying rot in organized religion stems from the fact that, its hates to be wrong. It’s always supposed to be right; “stress on the word always”. Any admission of error is dismissed and denied because it’s tantamount to challenging divinity.

Science is often used to justify organized religion, a trend that has increased tremendously nowadays. Funnily enough science prides itself in being wrong and adapting to change. It is mutable, so for immutable organized religion to seek respite in mutable science is quite amusing and contrarian. This change which is of recent vintage is a slow but sure step in the right direction for Humanity, away from organized religion.
Religion should be a private affair
And that my friend is the only solution.

brockley
July 22, 2016, 01:49 PM
I don't actively look to share my opinion or bash in public.
Maybe I am more open on here.
I freely admit I am a christian,people generally comment on this whether negative or positive.
I am generally asked questions,or asked to explain why.
In a secular society it is an oddity to be religious these days,and most people want to know why.
Like why I don't get drunk,that is common.

tonmoy.dhaka
July 22, 2016, 01:58 PM
I don't actively look to share my opinion or bash in public.
Maybe I am more open on here.
I freely admit I am a christian,people generally comment on this whether negative or positive.
I am generally asked questions,or asked to explain why.
In a secular society it is an oddity to be religious these days,and most people want to know why.
Like why I don't get drunk,that is common.

In a secular society, the worst they can do is ask you "why? "....
However your rights will still be protected like the rights of every other individual from all religion (or no religion). In societies like Bangladesh, your life will be threatened if you ask legitimate questions even quoting straight out of Quran.

Jadukor
July 23, 2016, 12:41 AM
I sometimes wonder what the perspective of the creator of this massive universe would be. Would the creator be so worried about jews non believers?... shouldnt there be more focus on sharing the mysteries of this universe, answers to questions regarding purpose of life, how it was created etc. More info on aliens, black holes, gravity, solar systems. Unverse was created in 7 days. Thats all we get? All i hear is a lot of pray, worship, dont do this and that, threats of hellfire, awesomeness of paradise.

tonmoy.dhaka
July 24, 2016, 02:40 PM
I sometimes wonder what the perspective of the creator of this massive universe would be. Would the creator be so worried about jews non believers?... shouldnt there be more focus on sharing the mysteries of this universe, answers to questions regarding purpose of life, how it was created etc. More info on aliens, black holes, gravity, solar systems. Unverse was created in 7 days. Thats all we get? All i hear is a lot of pray, worship, dont do this and that, threats of hellfire, awesomeness of paradise.

A very interesting question would be "Seven days with respect to what"?

I just want to state that time is relative, time is different relative to space . Time slows down with speed and gravity. So what does it mean that God created the universe in 7 days?

bodrul
July 26, 2016, 09:51 AM
I sometimes wonder what the perspective of the creator of this massive universe would be. Would the creator be so worried about jews non believers?... shouldnt there be more focus on sharing the mysteries of this universe, answers to questions regarding purpose of life, how it was created etc. More info on aliens, black holes, gravity, solar systems. Unverse was created in 7 days. Thats all we get? All i hear is a lot of pray, worship, dont do this and that, threats of hellfire, awesomeness of paradise.

If you can make it to the Paradise, you can learn about mysteries of this universe, its creation, answers to questions regarding purpose of life, aliens and much more.

However, if you cannot make it to Paradise....(we know the rest).

tonmoy.dhaka
July 26, 2016, 12:01 PM
If you can make it to the Paradise, you can learn about mysteries of this universe, its creation, answers to questions regarding purpose of life, aliens and much more.

However, if you cannot make it to Paradise....(we know the rest).

If he does not make it to Paradise and you do, than please request God to bring him into paradise.. since in heaven all your wishes are fulfilled. (problem solved).

:up:

bodrul
July 26, 2016, 12:41 PM
If he does not make it to Paradise and you do, than please request God to bring him into paradise.. since in heaven all your wishes are fulfilled. (problem solved).

:up:

The people of paradise will not fulfill the wishes of the people of hell, as Allah has vividly described in the Quran:

And the companions of the Fire will call to the companions of Paradise, "Pour upon us some water or from whatever Allah has provided you." They will say, "Indeed, Allah has forbidden them both to the disbelievers." Who took their religion as distraction and amusement and whom the worldly life deluded." So today We will forget them just as they forgot the meeting of this Day of theirs and for having rejected Our verses. [The Noble Quran 7:51-52]

kalpurush
July 26, 2016, 12:44 PM
However, if you cannot make it to Paradise....(we know the rest).

All i hear is ... threats of hellfire

^^^ that's how the business is run!

tonmoy.dhaka
July 26, 2016, 01:10 PM
The people of paradise will not fulfill the wishes of the people of hell, as Allah has vividly described in the Quran:

And the companions of the Fire will call to the companions of Paradise, "Pour upon us some water or from whatever Allah has provided you." They will say, "Indeed, Allah has forbidden them both to the disbelievers." Who took their religion as distraction and amusement and whom the worldly life deluded." So today We will forget them just as they forgot the meeting of this Day of theirs and for having rejected Our verses. [The Noble Quran 7:51-52]

So you are telling me that my mother (if she is in Paradise) would reject me water if I am in hell?
She would be happy in Paradise and not at all concerned that her son is in hell?

lol... Ok

tonmoy.dhaka
July 26, 2016, 01:20 PM
^^^ that's how the business is run!

The business aspect is actually extremely profitable in Bangladesh.

Capture government land illegally, build your own property and include a mosque in strategic location... no government would ever be able to demolish it.....you will also be known as a great man for donating land for a place of worship... your life in earth and after life is all taken care of.

bodrul
July 26, 2016, 02:18 PM
So you are telling me that my mother (if she is in Paradise) would reject me water if I am in hell?
She would be happy in Paradise and not at all concerned that her son is in hell?

lol... Ok

This is how Allah has described the Day of Judgement. When people will see the severity of Allah's punishment, all ties of kinship will be cut off. On that day, mother will try to ransom herself through her son and vice versa. Allah has said:

On the Day the sky will be like murky oil,
And the mountains will be like wool,
And no friend will ask [anything of] a friend,
They will be shown each other. The criminal will wish that he could be ransomed from the punishment of that Day by his children,
And his wife and his brother,
And his nearest kindred who shelter him
And whoever is on earth entirely [so] then it could save him. [The Noble Quran 70:8-14]

Tigers_eye
July 26, 2016, 02:35 PM
It is really important for people to distinguish between right and wrong. And what is wrong is wrong irrespective of the person committing the wrong or where it is written.
This is the simple lesson I want my children to learn. ...
The greatest of all wrong is not recognizing the Creator of everything, His (no gender) attributes, abilities and Power. Not recognizing the Cherisher, the Nourisher and His favor upon us. Not giving the thanks that only in return helps us and us alone. Without his mercy there is no salvation. That is the ultimate "wrong".
Everyone from every religion (or no religion) should be equal, you are not the worst of creature because you do not subscribe to a religion of choice.

Whatever consenting adults do in the privacy of their room is their wish, it is in no way the duty of the state to judge them or punish them.At Birth, everyone in every religion are equal. Even those who proclaim not to have any religion later on. Men and Women. One becomes the worst of creature as he or she forgets where he or she came from and where soon he or she would end up. That is only after the message has reached to him or her.

And to those where the Almighty Lord's true religion hasn't shined, those peoples' fate is with Him and He is the Most Just.

Homosexuality: my stand is, you must be a warner. Softly and/or firmly whatever it takes to get the message across. If they continue to engage which our Lord has forbidden then it is all on them. Same goes for Alcoholic and Drug addicts. If the state has a law, for or against, we have to abide by it. If it doesn't go by one's belief then they can try to change the law or leave the land. At no circumstances you can impose your understanding on to others. Even to the disbelievers.
The above is all common sense but it is not that common to be honest.Common sense can not be seen by everyone. How about the following common senses:

With a good intention, you give (something good) and you gain (the same thing) in multiple folds but not in your time (It could be money, time, effort anything). You have to patiently wait.

When you help others, you are actually helping yourselves (soul).

You forgive someone for the sake of your Lord (when you are on top), the Lord will forgive you for similar type of offense.

You hide someone's fault (not spreading gossip), then your faults will be hidden.

When you back bite to hurt someone, you are actually hurting yourself immensely.

These only apply for Believers. The disbelievers are on their own.

Tigers_eye
July 26, 2016, 02:46 PM
The business aspect is actually extremely profitable in Bangladesh.

Capture government land illegally, build your own property and include a mosque in strategic location... no government would ever be able to demolish it.....you will also be known as a great man for donating land for a place of worship... your life in earth and after life is all taken care of.The Bold part is wrong.

Any illegal money/wealth can not be purified by ANY means.

For example: Say someone makes $100 from bribe (illegal/haram). He or she invests it and makes $1,000. He gives away $500 to a charity say to fund an orphanage. None of his donation will help him in the court of his Lord. The only way to repent is to give the entire 1,000 that he made from that illegal acquisition and sincerely repent and seek forgiveness to make a case to his Lord.

Allah Subhana wa tala is the Most Merciful and it is up to Him to forgive that person or not.

If the foundation is bad the whole structure will collapse after certain stage.

Nasif
July 26, 2016, 03:12 PM
I sometimes wonder what the perspective of the creator of this massive universe would be. Would the creator be so worried about jews non believers?... shouldnt there be more focus on sharing the mysteries of this universe, answers to questions regarding purpose of life, how it was created etc. More info on aliens, black holes, gravity, solar systems. Unverse was created in 7 days. Thats all we get? All i hear is a lot of pray, worship, dont do this and that, threats of hellfire, awesomeness of paradise.

Excellent point. Unfortunately, religion of every kind has always been hijacked by clergy/religious-leaders. When you have lots of "do this" and "don't do that", pray this way, pray that way, and rituals for everything (even how to go to restroom) then you have a good base for profitable clergy business. This can then be used to program willing robots; who then will repeat and follow the clergy blindly in hopes of easy pass to heaven in afterlife. Even pay money for magic chants which can erase past sins! This is the norm for all religions, regardless of how much justification one comes up with his/her own base.

I can only speak in terms of Quran, as that is the one I have studied. Whatever we see all around us promoted as religion of Islam; has very little to do with the essence and message of Quran. Static knowledge of past of generations paused the progressive ideologies and made the religion into a repressive religion. It has been hijacked generations ago. In reality, Islam as it is practiced today is mostly ritual centric social activity.

Discussing and studying religion on an online platform is a challenging activity as most do not come with an open mind. Most of us are happy with our "own team", "do what our ancestors have been doing". How can all of them make any mistake?

In all my years of online discussions of similar topics, I have only seen few individuals with open view. Usually these type discussions end up with "my way or high way". Hopefully this one will be a better one :)

And one must always remember, "Being wrong is a path to being right!"

Rifat
July 26, 2016, 03:51 PM
... Even pay money for magic chants which can erase past sins! ....


About the underlined portion there is absolutely no evidence in Islam for this...nowhere to be found, people made it up to make a quick buck and beguile the innocent, gullible. Only Allah forgive(s) sins.

Jadukor
July 27, 2016, 12:02 AM
Excellent point. Unfortunately, religion of every kind has always been hijacked by clergy/religious-leaders. When you have lots of "do this" and "don't do that", pray this way, pray that way, and rituals for everything (even how to go to restroom) then you have a good base for profitable clergy business. This can then be used to program willing robots; who then will repeat and follow the clergy blindly in hopes of easy pass to heaven in afterlife. Even pay money for magic chants which can erase past sins! This is the norm for all religions, regardless of how much justification one comes up with his/her own base.

I can only speak in terms of Quran, as that is the one I have studied. Whatever we see all around us promoted as religion of Islam; has very little to do with the essence and message of Quran. Static knowledge of past of generations paused the progressive ideologies and made the religion into a repressive religion. It has been hijacked generations ago. In reality, Islam as it is practiced today is mostly ritual centric social activity.

Discussing and studying religion on an online platform is a challenging activity as most do not come with an open mind. Most of us are happy with our "own team", "do what our ancestors have been doing". How can all of them make any mistake?

In all my years of online discussions of similar topics, I have only seen few individuals with open view. Usually these type discussions end up with "my way or high way". Hopefully this one will be a better one :)

And one must always remember, "Being wrong is a path to being right!"

Thank you Nasif bhai. Open minded people are indeed hard to find in deshi communities.

Homosexuality is common among animals. National Geographic did a documentary on it. Youtube ei thakar kotha. I wonder oishob gorilla, shingho gula dojokh naki behest jabey

I have many questions. Sometimes people will quote some common sense stuff fron their holy text and act as if it is mind blowing! " You shall not kill other human beings"... wow what a revelation! As if without it we would be engaged in a blood bath right now. As if a billion chinese are mass murdering each other on the streets.

Are we inherently evil that we either need the lure of paradise or the threat of hell to do good things and be a good person in life? Can we not help a poor person without the incentive of getting soab. Why everything needs to be incentivized? And more importantly, how much of that threat of hell is working on people and making them better? Muslims states dont have a good record on corruption, human rights, treatment of women or anything like that in particular.

bodrul
July 27, 2016, 03:07 AM
Are we inherently evil that we either need the lure of paradise or the threat of hell to do good things and be a good person in life? Can we not help a poor person without the incentive of getting soab. Why everything needs to be incentivized? And more importantly, how much of that threat of hell is working on people and making them better? Muslims states dont have a good record on corruption, human rights, treatment of women or anything like that in particular.

It is not as simple as you make it out to be. If there is no God, no Hell Fire, and no Paradise, liberal progressives and atheists simply CANNOT answer why I should be good. After all, if there is no objective morality, I have no reason to be a good person, especially if I can get way with my wrong doings.

For example, suppose I am a very powerful person. I am a tyrant. I can kill people, take their money, and use it to better my life. Why should I not do it?

If there is no hell fire and punishment, or if there is no God, what is the problem if I kill a person? After all, we are product of evolution, happen to live here randomly, and through killing someone, I am only rearranging the molecules and nothing more.

Or a soft example. My company is making billions in profit. What is the problem if I steal a million? It will not harm anyone. If I can steal and get away with it, why should I not steal?

The bottom line is, simple statements like why we need God, Hell, Heaven to be good and do good seems appealing at the surface level, but the real truth is, in the absence of God, Hell, and Paradise, there is no OBJECTIVE morality, and without objective morality, good or bad has no meaning.

dolcevita
July 27, 2016, 05:51 AM
It is not as simple as you make it out to be. If there is no God, no Hell Fire, and no Paradise, liberal progressives and atheists simply CANNOT answer why I should be good. After all, if there is no objective morality, I have no reason to be a good person, especially if I can get way with my wrong doings.

For example, suppose I am a very powerful person. I am a tyrant. I can kill people, take their money, and use it to better my life. Why should I not do it?

If there is no hell fire and punishment, or if there is no God, what is the problem if I kill a person? After all, we are product of evolution, happen to live here randomly, and through killing someone, I am only rearranging the molecules and nothing more.

Or a soft example. My company is making billions in profit. What is the problem if I steal a million? It will not harm anyone. If I can steal and get away with it, why should I not steal?

The bottom line is, simple statements like why we need God, Hell, Heaven to be good and do good seems appealing at the surface level, but the real truth is, in the absence of God, Hell, and Paradise, there is no OBJECTIVE morality, and without objective morality, good or bad has no meaning.

That's what Dostoevsky said in "The Brothers Karamazov" : without God all thing are permissible".
In a post modern society what you could do or not do are described by "positive law" (human made law).

tonmoy.dhaka
July 27, 2016, 08:32 AM
Some of the comments are mind boggling...
not sure where to start or what to write anymore....

So TigerEye bhai, please tell me what is the creator of everything? Is it blasphemy to ask how the creator of everything was created? Or do I become a non believer because I asked a question that a 5 year old would also wonder and when they ask their parents, they would be warned against asking that question ever again?

Is it a blasphemy if I ask why would the most knowing, the most merciful make you burn in hell fire for eternity just for being an unbeliever (but a good human being)? People like Mother Teresa, Nelson Mandela has done more for mankind and people than almost any believer I know. How can they be worst of creatures that deserves to be in hell?

And Bodrul Bhai, fear can be a deterrent... but the greatest deterrent is good education. I cannot recall a person ever dreaming to migrate and live in a Muslim country... Even the syrians want to move to Germany although they are closer to the GCC countries..... Why migrate so far to the land of the unbelievers if they have no fear of God and can engage in bloodbath any moment?

Rifat
July 27, 2016, 10:37 AM
The notion that the creator has a beginning or the creator was "created" contradicts the sole definition of God, then he wouldn't be God to begin with because that implies that there was an entity who existed before him. That implies that he has someone more powerful that him. God is the uncaused cause, he existed before anything ever existed. God transcends the concept of time...

Ultimately, God determines who goes to heaven and who goes to hell.

Most people migrate to Europe/US/Canada/Australia or any other technologically developed countries for money, worldly comfort, education. Most Muslim countries do not focus on developing comfort for worldly life as much as they focus on spirituality... there are very few people who actually migrate to Muslim countries but mostly for business reasons. The only exceptions to these rules may be Turkey, Malaysia, Saudi and UAE...other than that most Muslim countries are not as concerned about the comforts of worldly life...

Above every possessor of knowledge, there is someone more knowing. (paraphrased attempted translation of a verse from Qur'an in Surah Yusuf)

Banglatiger84
July 27, 2016, 12:31 PM
Most people migrate to Europe/US/Canada/Australia or any other technologically developed countries for money, worldly comfort, education. Most Muslim countries do not focus on developing comfort for worldly life as much as they focus on spirituality... th)

Have to disagree that "most" Muslim countries focus on spirituality :)

They are just 3rd world countries that happen to be Muslims which is why no one wants to migrate there ....

Rifat
July 27, 2016, 01:42 PM
^^correct. thanks for the correction :)

Tigers_eye
July 27, 2016, 02:34 PM
Some of the comments are mind boggling...
not sure where to start or what to write anymore....

So TigerEye bhai, please tell me what is the creator of everything? Is it blasphemy to ask how the creator of everything was created? Or do I become a non believer because I asked a question that a 5 year old would also wonder and when they ask their parents, they would be warned against asking that question ever again?

Is it a blasphemy if I ask why would the most knowing, the most merciful make you burn in hell fire for eternity just for being an unbeliever (but a good human being)? People like Mother Teresa, Nelson Mandela has done more for mankind and people than almost any believer I know. How can they be worst of creatures that deserves to be in hell?I will try to answer the second part first. Nelson Mandela, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., Mother Teresa, Gandhi, you, me, my Mother, my father, Nasif, idumb, imam of our local mosque, Imam abu hanifa, Imam Ahmed, Imam Malik, Imam Shafi, Hazrat Shah Jalal, Popes, Gurus, this pir, that pir, xyz, anyone, and everyone doesn't have a ticket to go to heaven. None.
No mortal knows in what situation others (those who passed away) are and what is in our heart (those who are living). If anyone tells you that so and so is in heaven who was born a generation after Prophet (PBUH) had passed away, then he or she is lying. It is up to our Lord who he will allow to enter in HIS paradise. That is why it is better not to get in to discussion about something that we have no knowledge of on who specifically is going to heaven if you are truthful.

This is His show. We human have no power. Our prayers, good or bad work doesn't effect Him, the Magnificent. It only effects us.

You believe in one God, the Omnipresent, the Omnipotent, His Books, His angles, His prophets, and the Unseen, and judgment day; you do good and stay away from bad/wrong; then you are not among the Worst of creatures. This makes you a believer.

If you are worried for your relatives, your children, your friends - then warn them and spread the above simple message. You have no power to change anyone. Even your loved ones. Just like Nuh (A) /Noah had no power to change his wife and son; Just like Ibrahim (A) Abraham had no power to change his father, just like Prophet (PBUH) could not change a single Arab. They all delivered the message that was given to them and that was their job. It is by the Mercy of Our Lord that people see the light. He doesn't just pick A over B. It is the person intention and work that elevates his status and God's help comes to him. and the opposite happens as well.

+++
Now for the first part:
To a 5 year old boy asking; you will say, God is One and only. He is self-sufficient. He is Eternal-refuge. He doesn't have any children nor was He born. Nothing is comparable to Him. Glory to Him the Most high. High from any association. He was there when there was nothing. He created everything that is known and unknown. He has the supreme control over everything. He has no Need. He creates whatever he wishes and it is not difficult for Him to do so. To Him we all shall return.

If the boy still asks you where Allah came from, you tell him softly, that He didn't come from anyone or any being. If the boy asks multiple times your answer should not change because that is what was communicated to us. Do not be angry and dismiss his query.

Rifat has explained better than me. Thank you.

+++
t.d, As yourself have mentioned that there is no alternative on education, may I suggest, make some time and start reading the Quran (meaning Bengali and English versions). It is never too late. You make a sincere effort to learn, Allah subhana watala will make it even easier for you to learn. Ultimately, He is the One who gives knowledge whomever He wishes.

Tigers_eye
July 27, 2016, 03:00 PM
Taha 51 and 52:
<SMALL class=times-new data-reactid=".1wb6y6pksu8.2.2.0.1.2:$20-51-ayah.1.1:$0.1.0">[Pharaoh] said, "Then what is the case of the former generations?"</SMALL>

<SMALL class=times-new data-reactid=".1wb6y6pksu8.2.2.0.1.2:$20-51-ayah.1.1:$0.1.0"><SMALL class=times-new data-reactid=".1wb6y6pksu8.2.2.0.1.2:$20-52-ayah.1.1:$0.1.0">[Moses] said, "The knowledge thereof is with my Lord in a record. My Lord neither errs nor forgets."</SMALL>

</SMALL>

tonmoy.dhaka
July 27, 2016, 03:22 PM
I will try to answer the second part first. Nelson Mandela, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., Mother Teresa, Gandhi, you, me, my Mother, my father, Nasif, idumb, imam of our local mosque, Imam abu hanifa, Imam Ahmed, Imam Malik, Imam Shafi, Hazrat Shah Jalal, Popes, Gurus, this pir, that pir, xyz, anyone, and everyone doesn't have a ticket to go to heaven. None.
No mortal knows in what situation others (those who passed away) are and what is in our heart (those who are living). If anyone tells you that so and so is in heaven who was born a generation after Prophet (PBUH) had passed away, then he or she is lying. It is up to our Lord who he will allow to enter in HIS paradise. That is why it is better not to get in to discussion about something that we have no knowledge of on who specifically is going to heaven if you are truthful.

This is His show. We human have no power. Our prayers, good or bad work doesn't effect Him, the Magnificent. It only effects us.

You believe in one God, the Omnipresent, the Omnipotent, His Books, His angles, His prophets, and the Unseen, and judgment day; you do good and stay away from bad/wrong; then you are not among the Worst of creatures. This makes you a believer.

If you are worried for your relatives, your children, your friends - then warn them and spread the above simple message. You have no power to change anyone. Even your loved ones. Just like Nuh (A) /Noah had no power to change his wife and son; Just like Ibrahim (A) Abraham had no power to change his father, just like Prophet (PBUH) could not change a single Arab. They all delivered the message that was given to them and that was their job. It is by the Mercy of Our Lord that people see the light. He doesn't just pick A over B. It is the person intention and work that elevates his status and God's help comes to him. and the opposite happens as well.

+++
Now for the first part:
To a 5 year old boy asking; you will say, God is One and only. He is self-sufficient. He is Eternal-refuge. He doesn't have any children nor was He born. Nothing is comparable to Him. Glory to Him the Most high. High from any association. He was there when there was nothing. He created everything that is known and unknown. He has the supreme control over everything. He has no Need. He creates whatever he wishes and it is not difficult for Him to do so. To Him we all shall return.

If the boy still asks you where Allah came from, you tell him softly, that He didn't come from anyone or any being. If the boy asks multiple times your answer should not change because that is what was communicated to us. Do not be angry and dismiss his query.

Rifat has explained better than me. Thank you.

+++
t.d, As yourself have mentioned that there is no alternative on education, may I suggest, make some time and start reading the Quran (meaning Bengali and English versions). It is never too late. You make a sincere effort to learn, Allah subhana watala will make it even easier for you to learn. Ultimately, He is the One who gives knowledge whomever He wishes.


Why does one needs to believe in God to be the best or worst of creature? It makes no sense to me. I like Warren Buffett for many reasons. He would suddenly not become the worst of creature if he states that he is an unbeliever. Believing in God has no impact on how good or bad a person is (or atleast that is what I will tech my children).

I want to quote a very old bengali poem
শুনরে মানুষ ভাই
সবার উপরে মানুষ সত্য
তাহার উপরে নাই


I have read the Quran (meaning), I do not agree with all of it (which I know is a Sin) but I can assure you that most of the people (even the most pious muslims) will not agree with all of it. I will never teach my children that his friend and their family are bad people because they follow judaism. I will not teach them that it is okay to get married at pre puberty age just because the religious book does not forbid it. I will not use scare tactics for them to follow religion .

I will not teach my kids that God is the most merciful and then teach him that if you do not do as you are told, he will burn you in hell fire for eternity (that is sadistic).

Also if would be unwise to think that the radicals who are killing in the name of God has never read the book.

And Rifat Bhai , sorry I cannot agree with your statement
" Muslim countries do not focus on developing comfort for worldly life as much as they focus on spirituality" Infact All the rich muslim countries are building the tallest and most luxurious buildings and hotels in this world. And none of those countries are rich because of their effort or ability, they are rich serendipitously because of natural resource .

Ajfar
July 27, 2016, 05:57 PM
Why does one needs to believe in God to be the best or worst of creature? It makes no sense to me. I like Warren Buffett for many reasons. He would suddenly not become the worst of creature if he states that he is an unbeliever. Believing in God has no impact on how good or bad a person is (or atleast that is what I will tech my children).

I think people get confused when it comes to this. I'll try to explain as best as I can. I (as a believer) am in no position to judge what someone's value is to Allah. The term phrase, "worst of creature", is not for me to go around saying, hey you don't believe in Allah, you are the worst of creature. That's not my place. Allah is the ultimate decider. The sad reality is, when I read the Quran and I come across a warning, the FIRST thing I should be thinking about is myself, not oh snap I totally know who needs to hear this warning. Tonmoy, I am in no position to go around telling anyone they are the worst of creature, when I myself have no idea what's in store from me. Worst of creature isn't for someone in this world to point to others to belittle them, that's there as a warning for the disbelievers from Allah. A lot of times us muslims think when strong words are used in the Quran, we are in the position to use those same words toward other people. That's not right at all. If I do that, than I have taken Allah out of the picture and made those my words.

People (myself included) forget that one of the most beloved person to our Prophet (SAW), was his uncle, who was a disbeliever. So did the Prophet (SAW) hate his uncle because he didn't become muslim.

tonmoy.dhaka
July 27, 2016, 06:42 PM
I think people get confused when it comes to this. I'll try to explain as best as I can. I (as a believer) am in no position to judge what someone's value is to Allah. The term phrase, "worst of creature", is not for me to go around saying, hey you don't believe in Allah, you are the worst of creature. That's not my place. Allah is the ultimate decider. The sad reality is, when I read the Quran and I come across a warning, the FIRST thing I should be thinking about is myself, not oh snap I totally know who needs to hear this warning. Tonmoy, I am in no position to go around telling anyone they are the worst of creature, when I myself have no idea what's in store from me. Worst of creature isn't for someone in this world to point to others to belittle them, that's there as a warning for the disbelievers from Allah. A lot of times us muslims think when strong words are used in the Quran, we are in the position to use those same words toward other people. That's not right at all. If I do that, than I have taken Allah out of the picture and made those my words.

People (myself included) forget that one of the most beloved person to our Prophet (SAW), was his uncle, who was a disbeliever. So did the Prophet (SAW) hate his uncle because he didn't become muslim.

A person who claims to be a believer might be a non believer... But how can someone who openly calls himself a non believer (or believer of another religion) can ever be confused?

Here is verse 9:30 for you

http://quran.com/9/30

The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah "; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah ." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?

Ajfar
July 27, 2016, 09:07 PM
Tonmoy I don't think you understood my post. I'm not trying to get in a debate with you regarding what Allah said in the Quran. You already said you don't agree with things in the Quran.

You were giving an example of how Warren Buffet is considered a worst of human being because he is a disbeliever and you want to teach your kids not to hate people. I was just trying to point out to you, as a believer I'm in no position to consider Warren Buffet to be the worst of creature, nor should I hate him because he is a disbeliever. The words in Quran are from Allah as a warning to people, not for me to use and spread hatred. I should not take those words and start labeling people as that, because that's not why those words are there for. The reason for my post is you are making it sound like Islam tells you to teach kids so and so is a bad person and you should hate them. That's not the case at all. And again I reiterate to you, prophet (SAW) beloved uncle who he loved dearly, was a non believer and he died as a non believer.

Not trying to get myself in a religious debate, just clarifying. We get visitors from all over the place, someone might read what you wrote and take it as yes looks like Islam does teach kids to hate people because someone who read the meaning of Quran said so.

Jadukor
July 27, 2016, 09:44 PM
We get visitors from all over the place, someone might read what you wrote and take it as yes looks like Islam does teach kids to hate people because someone who read the meaning of Quran said so.

Tonmoy's post being misunderstood is the least to worry about right now. All anybody needs to do is just read global news to form an opinion about what young kids are learning out of islam.

I think the discussion is interesting if it avoids going into specific verses. Verses without the context can have whole different meanings so i am personally not interested to get into those.

Jadukor
July 27, 2016, 10:16 PM
1. Do we refrain from murdering people because god says it is bad and will punish you if you do it?
2. Or is it that killing people is bad and thats why god also forbids it and punish you for it?

This is a question of which comes first, morality or religion.

With reference to point 1, If you are commanded to do something then you are not making a decision or making a judgement on the right or wrongness of that decision. You have left that part upto god to decide because god is by definition good and devoid of evil. The problem with this is that this is also how people can hack non believers to death. Because they are actually following a command rather than making a proper moral decision.

Sylheti_Beta
July 28, 2016, 06:06 AM
The problem with this is that this is also how people can hack non believers to death. Because they are actually following a command rather than making a proper moral decision.
Precisely, :applause:

Apologists get their knickers in a twist trying to disassociate from this quandary.
Whenever something bad is done by religious people or theocratic/religious countries; otherwise well intention-ed folks as well as religious demagogues will keep parroting any/all of the following immediately:

1. Fundamentalists destroying places of worship of any other religion have nothing to do with real organized religion.
2. Fundamentalists killing children and women have nothing to do with real organized religion.
3. The forcible conversion of helpless people have nothing to do with real organized religion.
4. The genocide being perpetrated by fundamentalists "anywhere" has nothing to do with with real organized religion.
5. Country a, b, c’s political and social fallacies have nothing to do with real organized religion.
6. Bomb-blasts in places of worship; have nothing to do with real organized religion.
7. The unwillingness of theocracies to give actual weight-age to women's rights has nothing to do with real organized religion.
8. Sectarian violence nothing to do with real organized religion.
9. Having sex with slave girls in theocratic countries nothing to do with real organized religion.
10. Women oppression and inequality with men has nothing to do with real organized religion.
11. The decapitations of the inhabitants of entire villages by fundamentalists in Algeria nothing to do with real organized religion.
12. Acts of terror committed frequently around the world in the name of real organized religion have nothing to do with real organized religion.
13. My personal favorite, the book/teachings (of any given organized religion) is infallible, simple, perfect etc; but wait not everyone can understand the book/teachings.
14.Another fallacy used by organized religion a lot is the God of the Gaps argument. All fields of science have unanswered questions. Real Scientists typically view these as open research questions. Organized religion argues that if science can’t explain how something happened, then God must be the explanation. Such arguments are called “god-of-the-gaps” arguments.
In this regard science is more honest and says it doesn’t know and needs to find out. Organized religion speaks from self-righteous authority and chooses to assert that it knows the answer instead of sticking to the straight and narrow. That’s why Science and organized religion are divergent though organized religion likes to use Science as a crutch :facepalm:.
As I said previously in another post-
Science is often used to justify organized religion, a trend that has increased tremendously nowadays. Funnily enough science prides itself in being wrong and adapting to change. It is mutable, so for immutable organized religion to seek respite in mutable science is quite amusing and contrarian.

All of this is standard stuff you will get to hear with unfailing regularity. Organized religion is a quagmire of cognitive dissonance and denial.
Excuses like these will keep getting added; until one day it will come to such a pass that some random guy may end up saying real organized religion has nothing to do with real organized religion. :lol: That day is not far off.

Tigers_eye
July 28, 2016, 07:11 AM
Why does one needs to believe in God to be the best or worst of creature? It makes no sense to me. I like Warren Buffett for many reasons. He would suddenly not become the worst of creature if he states that he is an unbeliever. Believing in God has no impact on how good or bad a person is (or atleast that is what I will tech my children).

I have read the Quran (meaning), I do not agree with all of it (which I know is a Sin) but I can assure you that most of the people (even the most pious muslims) will not agree with all of it. I will never teach my children that his friend and their family are bad people because they follow judaism. I will not teach them that it is okay to get married at pre puberty age just because the religious book does not forbid it. I will not use scare tactics for them to follow religion .

I will not teach my kids that God is the most merciful and then teach him that if you do not do as you are told, he will burn you in hell fire for eternity (that is sadistic).

Also if would be unwise to think that the radicals who are killing in the name of God has never read the book. ....what you do is entirely up to you. What you will face is entirely be upon your deeds and intention. The issue you do not understand is, you or me do not decide who is the worst of creatures. I totally failed in my previous lengthy post.

If you do not agree with the verses of Quran, I can't make you. Whatever you teach to your next generations or your friends and family, you will have to answer for it to your Creator, if you believe that there is one.

The father of Ignorance, Abu Lahab, heard verses of the Quran. Yet he didn't come out right. So just "reading the quran" doesn't make the person pure and do the right things only.
Why does one needs to believe in God to be the best or worst of creature? It makes no sense to me.
I have explained who is My God and some of His attributes. My God is the one Who decides who is the best of HIS creation and who is the worst. Again this is His show. So now I ask you, Who is your God? What attributes does he have? since we clearly are speaking of two different being.

Mridul
July 28, 2016, 08:17 AM
God has complete power over everything. HE is our creator, owner, nourisher, cherisher, sustainer. Whatever good happens to us is from God and whatever bad happens to us is from God.

God has given us this life and HE will take it away. Only HE knows when. So let us all believe and follow HIM before it is too late.

Am I ready to die?

Are you ready to die?

Sylheti_Beta
July 28, 2016, 08:43 AM
I have explained who is My God and some of His attributes. My God is the one Who decides who is the best of HIS creation and who is the worst.

If a god decides who is the best and who is the worst, why are the worst made/created in the first place ? A god is supposed to be omnipresent and omnipotent, so if a god continues to create humans who turn out bad even after so many centuries of experience with human creation, whose fault is it? Can god not end this cycle and create everyone perfectly in line with the standards of perfection attributed to a god.
A simple potter making imperfect pots is subject to more scrutiny.

Again this is His show.
Do we know for sure if god as an entity is male. A formless god is what is preached and prescribed. Can a formless entity have a gender ?

Sylheti_Beta
July 28, 2016, 08:56 AM
Whatever good happens to us is from God and whatever bad happens to us is from God.

Q:How many generations have withstood the bad ?
A:Countless and continuing

Q:How many innocent men,kids and women have withstood the bad.
A:Countless and continuing
People like to call this a test. Its a test that never ends.

Q:But why do we need this test ?
A:Because we are not made perfect.

Q:Who made us?
A:A perfect entity

Q:So isn't a perfect entity supposed to come up with a perfect uniform creation ?
A: Yes, oh wait...maybe.

More of the same ad nauseum.

tonmoy.dhaka
July 28, 2016, 09:00 AM
what you do is entirely up to you. What you will face is entirely be upon your deeds and intention. The issue you do not understand is, you or me do not decide who is the worst of creatures. I totally failed in my previous lengthy post.

If you do not agree with the verses of Quran, I can't make you. Whatever you teach to your next generations or your friends and family, you will have to answer for it to your Creator, if you believe that there is one.

The father of Ignorance, Abu Lahab, heard verses of the Quran. Yet he didn't come out right. So just "reading the quran" doesn't make the person pure and do the right things only.

I have explained who is My God and some of His attributes. My God is the one Who decides who is the best of HIS creation and who is the worst. Again this is His show. So now I ask you, Who is your God? What attributes does he have? since we clearly are speaking of two different being.


Do you agree with the verses of Quran? Do you agree with Sahih Hadith?

If you do, than do you agree with stoning , beheading and amputation as forms of punishment? Do you agree with child marriage? Are you homophobic? Do you agree with honor killing? Do you agree with having concubines?

Please answer... and dont be vague like "God is all knowing all merciful, we believe him trust him ....yada yada" and not answer the above directly... it is purely a yes and no question.

roman
July 28, 2016, 12:04 PM
If you do, than do you agree with stoning , beheading and amputation as forms of punishment? Do you agree with child marriage? Are you homophobic? Do you agree with honor killing? Do you agree with having concubines?

Please answer... and dont be vague like "God is all knowing all merciful, we believe him trust him ....yada yada" and not answer the above directly... it is purely a yes and no question.

There is a myth that the page that contained the verses of stoning someone to death for fornication was eaten by a goat and as a result there is no such verse in quran that tells us to do so.


Reported 'Aisha (RA): the verse of stoning and of suckling an adult ten times was revealed, and they were (written) on a paper and kept under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) expired and we were occupied by his death, a goat entered and ate away the paper.’ (Sunan Ibn Majah, Hadith 1944)

Tigers_eye
July 28, 2016, 10:51 PM
...
Do we know for sure if god as an entity is male. A formless god is what is preached and prescribed. Can a formless entity have a gender ?Post 51. 1st line.

Tigers_eye
July 28, 2016, 11:00 PM
Do you agree with the verses of Quran? Yes. Do you agree with Sahih Hadith? Only if it has a reference in Quran.

If you do, than do you agree with stoning , beheading and amputation as forms of punishment? Do you agree with child marriage? Are you homophobic? Do you agree with honor killing? Do you agree with having concubines?

Please answer... and dont be vague like "God is all knowing all merciful, we believe him trust him ....yada yada" and not answer the above directly... it is purely a yes and no question.Stoning Yes, only in a true Islamic Govt. which in modern day we don't have. Beheading and amputation, No.
no.
no.
no.
no.

I have answered all your questions truthfully. You haven't answered mine yet. Who is your God? What attributes does He have?

Jadukor
July 29, 2016, 12:54 AM
I wonder since God created the earth and the human beings in it. Why did he only send his message to a fraction of the population instead of a worldwide circulation? I would think it could have been in-built in all life forms from birth.. where we pop out of the womb and we instantly know there is a book to be read/message to be heard... sort of like the software licence agreement before installation.

Does god provide protection to ordinary individuals and grant wishes? We pray for cricket match victory, we pray to be safe when out on the road too. Looking at the world today where will our safety be on god's priority list? It has to be below the priority reserved for innocent children and mothers i would think. So when mothers and children are getting murdered and blown off by bombs in Iraq and children are starving in syria is there any use seeking for it? Clearly more deserving people arent getting it right now.

bujhee kom
July 29, 2016, 02:56 AM
I wonder since God created the earth and the human beings in it. Why did he only send his message to a fraction of the population instead of a worldwide circulation? ...
I believe it is because God does NOT always work in mysterious ways. God knew one day, in due time, all (good and bad) information will be readily available through internet.

Sylheti_Beta
July 29, 2016, 04:12 AM
Post 51. 1st line.
Noted :).

So why can a perfect entity not build a perfect creation ?
Thousands of years of imperfection in the creations surely show a pattern which even imperfect beings like us can see clearly.

Imperfections which cause the following for example:

Inability to follow divinely ordained guidelines.
Inability to not indulge in wrongful actions.
Inability to adhere to a single divinely ordained path.


If a perfect entity who wants nothing but good for whats created does not rectify these faults, does it not betray indifference and/or perfunctory behavior ?

Tigers_eye
July 29, 2016, 07:02 AM
So why can a perfect entity not build a perfect creation ?As'salamu Alaikum.

Are we playing "devil's advocate" game here?

You Believe in Angels? A Perfect Entity CAN make perfection who doesn't do anything wrong.

Thousands of years of imperfection in the creations surely show a pattern which even imperfect beings like us can see clearly.

Imperfections which cause the following for example:

Inability to follow divinely ordained guidelines.
Inability to not indulge in wrongful actions.
Inability to adhere to a single divinely ordained path.

Human do have the capability to follow divinely ordained guidelines, adhere to a single divinely ordained path, and not indulge in wrongful actions. That is faith. We do have the freedom of choice. Surely you are not asking for examples!
If a perfect entity who wants nothing but good for whats created does not rectify these faults, does it not betray indifference and/or perfunctory behavior ?
The Lord of All worlds did send messengers and books to rectify faults guide the rest of people to the single ordained path.

Mercy!

Tigers_eye
July 29, 2016, 07:06 AM
I believe it is because God does NOT always work in mysterious ways. God knew one day, in due time, all (good and bad) information will be readily available through internet.Sheikh Google. :lol:

tonmoy.dhaka
July 29, 2016, 08:41 AM
Yes.Only if it has a reference in Quran.
Stoning Yes, only in a true Islamic Govt. which in modern day we don't have. Beheading and amputation, No.
no.
no.
no.
no.

I have answered all your questions truthfully. You haven't answered mine yet. Who is your God? What attributes does He have?

I am surprised that you support stoning although it is not referenced in Quran but only in authentic Hadith.

On the other hand
You say you do NOT agree to beheading/amputation although Quran references it in (Quran 8:12). So do you really believe everything that is in Quran?

Prophet (pbuh) married Ayesha when she was really young..
Just want you to note that my own Grandparents also married really young... but I do not support it. So I do not support something that Prophet Mohammad(pbuh) himself did and you do not either. Where as we are all supposed to follow his life.

Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) also had concubines. You can read up "a sealed nectar" , probably the best biography on the prophet. And again you do not agree with him. Please note: I am not saying that he did something wrong, may be it was the time. Hence Islam needs reformation. I believe in that.. although saying that is blasphemous.


Finally you asked "Who is my God"... to answer your question, my family is devout muslim and I am taught only to follow Allah... I am still trying to discover him and searching him..

tonmoy.dhaka
July 29, 2016, 08:43 AM
[QUOTE=Jadukor;1911143]
I believe it is because God does NOT always work in mysterious ways. God knew one day, in due time, all (good and bad) information will be readily available through internet.

what happens till than...
What happens to the tribes inside Amazon who has no connection to the outside world? Are they destined for hell ?

Banglatiger84
July 29, 2016, 09:02 AM
No one knows who is destined for hell and who not ....

Sylheti_Beta
July 29, 2016, 03:13 PM
Are we playing "devil's advocate" game here?
Absolutely not Bhaijaan,I am not taking an opposing view just for the sake of argument. All my viewpoints are genuine and without malice :big_hug:. I still read up on religion when I have a chance, still wake up every morning around fajr time as a matter of habit. I used to do Dawah but don't do so anymore. Anyway don't want to digress anymore.

A Perfect Entity CAN make perfection who doesn't do anything wrong.
Human do have the capability to follow divinely ordained guidelines, adhere to a single divinely ordained path, and not indulge in wrongful actions. That is faith. We do have the freedom of choice. Surely you are not asking for examples!
That's where the logic falls apart. There's the pesky little thing called :lol: free will which is quite often cited in organized religion, we will come to that later.

Back to the creation aspect, if so many centuries of trying out "Free Will" has brought misfortune upon humanity. Free will which acts like a bull in a China shop and upsets the divine plan. A perfect creator would know better and come up with an alternative instead of perfunctorily churning out more of the same pain, suffering, hunger and misery ad infinitum.

The free will concept is a fallacy, because God is omniscient(knows all things from the beginning to the end). For example he knew the devil was going to rebel against him before he created him and still went ahead to create the devil. He also knew whether we will all go to heaven or hell before creating us yet he did. Within the limit of man, we can just talk about free will because we don't know our tomorrow since we are not omniscient, how do we really know its free. How do we know for sure that its still not outside the omniscience and will of God.

When a knower of everything gives free will, despite knowing whats going to happen in future its contrary to reason. If someone has created a game, created its rules, and the players, then how can any player be free?


Because God being all knowing, knows completely what choices we will make regardless of whether we do right or wrong.
Because God being all knowing, knows completely what choices we will make regardless of free will.

So if someone says God doesn’t know how we will exercise free will, then he/she is saying that God is not all knowing.
So now that this point is settled that God does know everything about everyone, why does this perfunctory churning out of same pain, suffering, hunger and misery continue ad infinitum.


The Lord of All worlds did send messengers and books to rectify faults guide the rest of people to the single ordained path.
Mercy!
Clearly, that hasn't helped. A different approach is mandatory.

One World
July 29, 2016, 04:09 PM
Hereby I declare death of my prefrontal cortex. Hula hoop, Amygdala.

simon
July 29, 2016, 04:18 PM
[QUOTE=bujhee kom;1911148]

what happens till than...
What happens to the tribes inside Amazon who has no connection to the outside world? Are they destined for hell ?
I bought stuff online from there, I am sure they have internet connexion.
<br />Posted via BC Mobile Edition (Android)

bujhee kom
July 29, 2016, 09:11 PM
I believe it is because God does NOT always work in mysterious ways. God knew one day, in due time, all (good and bad) information will be readily available through internet.


what happens till than...
What happens to the tribes inside Amazon who has no connection to the outside world? Are they destined for hell ?

Absolutely right you are dear Tonmoy, I know I shouldn't have been joking, it is an excellent thread, with some great discussion going on here. But you know I was just joking around with the internet thing.

But that was an excellent question from Jadukor da. I always asked this question since the 70's and never received an answer, exactly what you said here. What happen to the Inuits, Eskimos or to the tribes in the deep Amazon rainforest, let's say in the 19th century, when they wouldn't even have absolutely NO chance of being exposed to the western religions (probably already got exposed to Christianity to a certain extent, here I am mainly speaking of Islam). How would God make them accountable? What was God's plan for them?

I never got an answer from any people who claim to have deep knowledge about the religion(s).

Banglatiger84
July 30, 2016, 01:29 AM
. I always asked this question since the 70's and never received an answer, exactly what you said here. What happen to the Inuits, Eskimos or to the tribes in the deep Amazon rainforest, let's say in the 19th century, when they wouldn't even have absolutely NO chance of being exposed to the western religions (probably already got exposed to Christianity to a certain extent, here I am mainly speaking of Islam). How would God make them accountable? What was God's plan for them?

I never got an answer from any people who claim to have deep knowledge about the religion(s).

How would you (get an answer) ?:)

Someone who really has deep knowledge of Islam would know that only Allah can decide what would happen to such tribes or even anyone else ..... there is always a chance someone fully "connected" to the normal world but who is a non-Muslim would be "forgiven" ....and spared from hell .....

we just do not know and to claim otherwise is to be arrogant

Banglatiger84
July 30, 2016, 01:34 AM
May Allah forgive me for thinking this way, but i always felt the punishment of stoning for adultery, particularly the way it is described, is a bit too gruesome. Yes, affairs are bad, but even then how much worse are they than than child killers, or those who initiate genocide .....

i think there is a good reason it is not mentioned in the Quran, and yes, that "hadith" about goats eating a verse on stoning is very weak and hence likely fabricated ...

Anik SH
July 30, 2016, 03:36 AM
সর্ষের মধ্যেই ভূত


সচ্ছল পরিবারের সন্তান এবং অভিজাত শিক্ষাপ্রতিষ্ঠানের এসব ছাত্ররা কেন এ পথে গেল? দারিদ্র্যের কারণে বা বিশেষ একটি শিক্ষায় শিক্ষিতরাই জঙ্গিবাদে আকৃষ্ট হয়—এই ধারণা সঠিক নয়। যাঁরা জঙ্গিবাদের আকৃষ্ট হচ্ছেন, তাঁরা অর্থ বা জাগতিক কোনো কারণে ওই পথে যাচ্ছেন, এমনটা নয়। তরুণদের প্রথমে ধর্মের প্রতি অনুরক্ত করা হয় এবং পরে ধর্মের ভুল ব্যাখ্যা দিয়ে উদ্বুদ্ধ করা হয়। সামাজিক অবস্থান এ ক্ষেত্রে কোনো কাজে আসে না।

এসব তরুণকে ফিরিয়ে আনতে হলে ধর্মেরই সঠিক ব্যাখ্যা দিয়ে ফিরিয়ে আনতে হবে। তাঁদের চক্র ভেঙে ফেলতে হবে। একই সঙ্গে সঠিক মূল্যবোধসম্পন্ন মানুষ হিসেবে গড়ে তুলতে হবে। পরিবারকে সচেতন হবে এবং সাংস্কৃতিক কর্মকাণ্ড দিয়ে জঙ্গিবিরোধী মানসিকতা গড়তে হবে।

ahnaf
July 30, 2016, 05:46 AM
May Allah forgive me for thinking this way, but i always felt the punishment of stoning for adultery, particularly the way it is described, is a bit too gruesome. Yes, affairs are bad, but even then how much worse are they than than child killers, or those who initiate genocide .....

i think there is a good reason it is not mentioned in the Quran, and yes, that "hadith" about goats eating a verse on stoning is very weak and hence likely fabricated ...

Its supposed to scare to people off. Its supposed to explain the gravity of this particular sin.
Mufti menk explained this beautifully in this video

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/OXvbgU3ils8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

tonmoy.dhaka
July 30, 2016, 10:04 AM
The question one must always ask is if "the magnitude of the crime deserves the punishment that is prescribed ? "

No matter how you word it, the answer is a big NO

Punishment like this will only please the inhuman Barbaric Sadistic men (uneducated and uncultured tribes people).

Tigers_eye
July 30, 2016, 10:11 AM
...Q. You do not clean up with water after a nature's call, correct? ONLY "yes" or "no" answer please.

If the answer is "no", well lol.... the questioner has succeeded to paint a filthy picture. The intention was bad to begin with and the person answering didn't see it coming.

If the answer is "yes" well in a follow up question Q. What would you do when you are in the middle of the desert with no water and you just had 'go'? The person answering becomes a "liar" now.

It seems to me you weren't sincere with your queries. You ask a blanket question first then put parameters around it. Not a good way to learn on any subject. Put forth your concern/question all at one time so the person answering knows what knowledge you are seeking. At any rate, I will be answering to the best of my capability.
I am surprised that you support stoning although it is not referenced in Quran but only in authentic Hadith. Stoning was a form of death sentence for all three Abrahamic religion. In modern times, we do have other methods of death sentences. Be it firing squad, electric chair or plain old rope (hanging). Nothing wrong with any of them. These are all executed by the State. Electric chair on live TV is horrific. If the law of a land permits stoning, then I have no problem with it. Just like I don't have a problem with all other forms of death penalties.

On the other hand
You say you do NOT agree to beheading/amputation although Quran references it in (Quran 8:12). So do you really believe everything that is in Quran?Yes. That verse is describing a war and wartime situation. Your generic question which I had to answer with ONLY a Yes or no doesn't specify a wartime situation. Are we at war? I thought you asked me if I support beheading and amputation period. Like what is going on at many places. Had I said "yes" you would then label me as the monsters supporting terrorists. I will be more careful from here on.

Prophet (pbuh) married Ayesha when she was really young...
Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) also had concubines. ...
Please do not imply any slander your own prophet and things that you have no knowledge about. You are saying "Peace be upon him" yet in the same sentence you are questioning his character.

What is your original source of these accusations? Check it first before accusing a prophet of any wrong doings. That is the scientific method isn't it? To check and recheck to get to the truth?

What do you mean by "really young"? I am not going to fall for your traps any more. You need to explain your queries/statement better. I would decimate any of your false claims on my Prophet (PBUH). I am not angry. I am speaking the truth. For starters, try to understand a direct command of Allah regarding Marriage to the believers. A Messenger of Allah, who brought the message, wouldn't follow it?

Chapter 4 (sura Nisa - The Woman) verse 19:
"O you who have believed, it is not lawful for you to inherit women by compulsion. And do not make difficulties for them in order to take [back] part of what you gave them unless they commit a clear immorality. And live with them in kindness. For if you dislike them - perhaps you dislike a thing and Allah makes therein much good."

tonmoy.dhaka
July 30, 2016, 10:59 AM
Q. You do not clean up with water after a nature's call, correct? ONLY "yes" or "no" answer please.

If the answer is "no", well lol.... the questioner has succeeded to paint a filthy picture. The intention was bad to begin with and the person answering didn't see it coming.

If the answer is "yes" well in a follow up question Q. What would you do when you are in the middle of the desert with no water and you just had 'go'? The person answering becomes a "liar" now.

It seems to me you weren't sincere with your queries. You ask a blanket question first then put parameters around it. Not a good way to learn on any subject. Put forth your concern/question all at one time so the person answering knows what knowledge you are seeking. At any rate, I will be answering to the best of my capability.
Stoning was a form of death sentence for all three Abrahamic religion. In modern times, we do have other methods of death sentences. Be it firing squad, electric chair or plain old rope (hanging). Nothing wrong with any of them. These are all executed by the State. Electric chair on live TV is horrific. If the law of a land permits stoning, then I have problem with it. Just like I don't have a problem with all other forms of death penalties.
Yes. That verse is describing a war and wartime situation. Your generic question which I had to answer with ONLY a Yes or no doesn't specify a wartime situation. Are we at war? I thought you asked me if I support beheading and amputation period. Like what is going on at many places. Had I said "yes" you would then label me as the monsters supporting terrorists. I will be more careful from here on.


Please do not imply any slander your own prophet and things that you have no knowledge about. You are saying "Peace be upon him" yet in the same sentence you are questioning his character.

What is your original source of these accusations? Check it first before accusing a prophet of any wrong doings. That is the scientific method isn't it? To check and recheck to get to the truth?

What do you mean by "really young"? I am not going to fall for your traps any more. You need to explain your queries/statement better. I would decimate any of your false claims on my Prophet (PBUH). I am not angry. I am speaking the truth. For starters, try to understand a direct command of Allah regarding Marriage to the believers. A Messenger of Allah, who brought the message, wouldn't follow it?

Chapter 4 (sura Nisa - The Woman) verse 19:
"O you who have believed, it is not lawful for you to inherit women by compulsion. And do not make difficulties for them in order to take [back] part of what you gave them unless they commit a clear immorality. And live with them in kindness. For if you dislike them - perhaps you dislike a thing and Allah makes therein much good."

To answer your question... yes I am hygenic... And I would not go to a desert unprepared. That is stupid... and if there is no water in desert than I have much more pressing issue.

Secondly, I did not try to trick you into anything.. I was just surprised at your knowledge of the religion.

You stated, you only agree to hadith if it has reference in Quran, I merely stated that I am surprised that you support stoning although it has no reference in Quran. And other abrahamic religion is vilified in many verses in Quran. If you want I can put forward the references but I suggest you read the book.

Thirdly, Stoning is a form of punishment for Adultary... Must add that any relationship between consenting adults should not be a matter of state. There is no form of punishment for adultary in any civilised nation, not sure where you got Electric chair as a form of punishment for this crime. Again, stoning only serves happiness for sadistic people.

Fouth and finally, I did not insult the prophet. I merely stated a fact. I said very young instead of saying an age is because the historians disagree with the actual age.. it ranges from 6 years to 12+ .
I have also stated that my grand parents also married young.. and I am not against this practise if it happened 100 of years back... but in modern times it is not acceptable. You and I both agree to it.. so if we agree than why cannot islam be reformed?

Also read up on the history of the prophet.. it is the least you can do.

Last thing: So I take it that you do support beheading in situations of war?

Tigers_eye
July 30, 2016, 12:07 PM
Thirdly, Stoning is a form of punishment for Adultary... Must add that any relationship between consenting adults should not be a matter of state. There is no form of punishment for adultary in any civilised nation, not sure where you got Electric chair as a form of punishment for this crime. Again, stoning only serves happiness for sadistic people. Consenting Adults? This shows you don't even know what Adultery even means. It destroys the societies smallest legal unit - marriage.
+++
Stoning was a form of death penalty during that time. Electric chair is also a form of death penalty in current times in many countries. Is it that hard to understand? You abide by the law of the Land where (time and place) you live. So if you are okay with Electric chair for a death penalty, or injection, or hanging in current times, why is it hard to accept stoning where the LAW of the land states accepts the method?

Now if you are against death penalty that is a totally different issue.

Fouth and finally, I did not insult the prophet. I merely stated a fact. I said very young instead of saying an age is because the historians disagree with the actual age.. it ranges from 6 years to 12+ .
I have also stated that my grand parents also married young.. and I am not against this practise if it happened 100 of years back... but in modern times it is not acceptable. You and I both agree to it.. so if we agree than why cannot islam be reformed?
Fact? or fabricated insulting opinion? Give me your original source. God willing, I am not going to shy away from any false accusation you make.
+++
There is nothing to be reformed in Islam. Islam NEVER accepted "CHILD MARRIAGE". Do you want me to repeat it? Do not just assume. Did I not give a translation of a verse in the previous post?

Child marriage is a cultural thing which Islam never supported.

In Islam, one can't marry without the consent of the WOMAN. Meaning she is an adult, who can think and understand for herself and who already had puberty and can carry babies. Children cannot make decisions by themselves on what is right or wrong nor can they have babies.

Also read up on the history of the prophet.. it is the least you can do.Stop. I have read up on the History of Prophet (S). There is nothing suggest what you falsely claim. Put forth your source. You will see the false with in the source. No logic at all.

Last thing: So I take it that you do support beheading in situations of war?Again, what would be the next question, Genocide? Tell me the trap ahead of time.

Jadukor
July 30, 2016, 01:16 PM
Can we get back to the broader aspects of religion and it's relevance before this inscreasingly personal nature of questions and responses spiral into a full blown jhogra?

tonoy
July 30, 2016, 02:28 PM
FYI, one of the fundamental belief of Islam and quran is accepting all that is said within the Quran. One has to accept that Islam was the finalized version of God and it is perfect. You can't nit-pick a certain quote. If you can't accept that then I'm sorry but that is breaking the core value of Islam. There is no reformation of Islam and never should be.

tonmoy.dhaka
July 30, 2016, 02:53 PM
FYI, one of the fundamental belief of Islam and quran is accepting all that is said within the Quran. One has to accept that Islam was the finalized version of God and it is perfect. You can't nit-pick a certain quote. If you can't accept that then I'm sorry but that is breaking the core value of Islam. There is no reformation of Islam and never should be.

I do not want things to get personal like Jadukor asked...

I did not open it with the intention to malign anything or anyone... please be a little more specific with quotes and comments I made and I will happily oblige to answer.

There are problems in this world that stems from some belief that is quoted in religious texts.... Hence I want those quotes/verses to be revisited and explained.

I have asked some fundamental questions. Questions that are valid to ask.
You may agree with Stoning , beheading , child marriage etc but those beliefs are unacceptable if you have a spec of humanity inside you. It is not about being liberalism or whatever fancy word you guys come up with. It is about being humane.

Goodnight.

Banglatiger84
July 30, 2016, 11:54 PM
Consenting Adults? This shows you don't even know what Adultery even means. It destroys the societies smallest legal unit - marriage.
+++
Stoning was a form of death penalty during that time. Electric chair is also a form of death penalty in current times in many countries. Is it that hard to understand? You abide by the law of the Land where (time and place) you live. So if you are okay with Electric chair for a death penalty, or injection, or hanging in current times, why is it hard to accept stoning where the LAW of the land states accepts the method?
.

Adultery is pretty much relations a married person pursues, outside marriage ...

It is wrong, and i agree it destroys marriages, (though I would dare to guess the majority of cases of "adultery" never come out, and everyone is happier for it) ... but I just cannot think that my Lord, the one who is so merciful in other aspects would want stoning the way it has been prescribed in Sharia (and not Quran)

You don't have to look far, the Taliban have done it in recent times (and earned praise from many western Muslims for implementing "Sharia") ... dig up a hole, put the convicts in it, make sure the stones are not too big so they do not pass out, and make sure they are not too small so it injures enough to kill them ....

sometimes they cry when being stoned and eventually pass out because of the broken skull and bleeding, other times they scream, the screams growing lower in intensity as they near death

and of course make sure the pious stoners are screaming Allahu Akbar when throwing the stones

now, what do we do, whenever any westerner points it out, we say "that is not Islam, you cannot implement such laws without this and that condition being met"

or we say "we need 4 witnesses to witness the actual act, the burden of proof is on the accusers etc"

but at the end of the day, what do we supposedly believe? That if such and such conditions are met, then a person who has relations with a person who is not legally married to him/her has to be stoned to death, in public ......

but within ourselves we think it is ok, <SIC>after all Sharia, when implemented properly brings about peace (sic) <SIC
It may be cruel to stone a person to death, but at least their sins are forgiven, its all ok, now lets focus on other more serene stuff on how Islam is peace and not dwell too much on such harsh matters, lest we start to feel bad for the victims .... and that is wrong as Islam looks out for society's greater good and not pesky "western-style human rights" that glorify criminals such as adulterers. (sic)<SIC>

Banglatiger84
July 30, 2016, 11:58 PM
FYI, one of the fundamental belief of Islam and quran is accepting all that is said within the Quran. One has to accept that Islam was the finalized version of God and it is perfect. You can't nit-pick a certain quote. If you can't accept that then I'm sorry but that is breaking the core value of Islam. There is no reformation of Islam and never should be.

There is no reformation, but there are differences on how stuff is interpreted, and multiple opinions based on that. And the trend is for the interpretations to become liberal and relaxed over time ...

ahnaf
July 31, 2016, 03:28 AM
Adultery is pretty much relations a married person pursues, outside marriage ...

It is wrong, and i agree it destroys marriages, (though I would dare to guess the majority of cases of "adultery" never come out, and everyone is happier for it) ... but I just cannot think that my Lord, the one who is so merciful in other aspects would want stoning the way it has been prescribed in Sharia (and not Quran)

You don't have to look far, the Taliban have done it in recent times (and earned praise from many western Muslims for implementing "Sharia") ... dig up a hole, put the convicts in it, make sure the stones are not too big so they do not pass out, and make sure they are not too small so it injures enough to kill them ....

sometimes they cry when being stoned and eventually pass out because of the broken skull and bleeding, other times they scream, the screams growing lower in intensity as they near death

and of course make sure the pious stoners are screaming Allahu Akbar when throwing the stones

now, what do we do, whenever any westerner points it out, we say "that is not Islam, you cannot implement such laws without this and that condition being met"

or we say "we need 4 witnesses to witness the actual act, the burden of proof is on the accusers etc"

but at the end of the day, what do we supposedly believe? That if such and such conditions are met, then a person who has relations with a person who is not legally married to him/her has to be stoned to death, in public ......

but within ourselves we think it is ok, <SIC>after all Sharia, when implemented properly brings about peace (sic) <SIC
It may be cruel to stone a person to death, but at least their sins are forgiven, its all ok, now lets focus on other more serene stuff on how Islam is peace and not dwell too much on such harsh matters, lest we start to feel bad for the victims .... and that is wrong as Islam looks out for society's greater good and not pesky "western-style human rights" that glorify criminals such as adulterers. (sic)<SIC>

As mufti menk already pointed out unless there's a confession its totally impossible to implement this punishment. If someone knowingly come ahead with confession or some nations/group of people decide to misuse the law, who's fault is that?

Jadukor
July 31, 2016, 04:01 AM
There should always be room for reformation of any religion. There are many things like beheading, slavery etc etc that are referenced in the holy book which are not relevant any longer. Fundamentalists will of course resist but the majority must fight and make it happen. Or else there wont be any place where muslims will find friends or be treated with respect.

Banglatiger84
July 31, 2016, 07:04 AM
As mufti menk already pointed out unless there's a confession its totally impossible to implement this punishment. If someone knowingly come ahead with confession or some nations/group of people decide to misuse the law, who's fault is that?

I don't know about fault, all I know is the way stoning is supposed to take place just feels not right.



I just cannot associate that with the mercy of Allah that we know,

I believe in ahadith, but for some reason the spirit in some ahadith is way harsher than what you find in the Quran ...

E.g. there was a supposed case of a woman who wrote poems against the Prophet pbuh, and she was killed by a blind man after he came at night and took away her suckling baby, when i read it the first time it seemed so out of place with the Islam I knew, later I read that it was likely a fabricated event, as with many ahadith, there is a lot of scope for error either in what happened or whether it happened at all ...

Tigers_eye
July 31, 2016, 07:45 AM
Bismillahi Rahmanir Rahim (in the name of Allah, the Most Gracious and Most Merciful):
All praise and gratitude belongs to Allah. Anything truth we say it is because of the knowledge that was bestowed upon us (a favor from our Lord) and anything UNKNOWINGLY wrong we say it is because of our short comings. We seek refuge to You, oh our Lord! Forgive us, guide us, and save us.
++++
This is the real problem:
We have no issues in accepting Allah Subhanawa tala as our Creator, Sustainer, Cherisher, Provider. We also mostly do not have any issues with Prophet (PBUH) - Inshallah I will get to the accusations if time permit.

The issue is some of our worldly desires are in direct conflict with the MESSAGE. The arrogance we have, the audacity we have to challenge our own Creator who owns everything. And what is the message?

"COMPLETE submission to the will of Allah."

Who is the one challenged Allah first? Satan didn't bow to Adam when he was asked to. Then Allah gives him another chance by asking "what prevented you?" He had time to say, "Forgive me, I am sorry" but he didn't. His arrogance made him think he was better than Adam. And satan starts to argue with his Creator.

We think we know better. We forget our own creation and we become these arrogant prick, and start yelling and arguing about the laws that has been set for us by our Creator (Bangla translation - shey tar nijer jonmay'er kotha buley jai ar hoye jai prokassho bak-bitonda kari.)

It is a complete submission. No nitpicking. Accepting some and not accepting others make us Hypocrites, worst of creatures, resident of Hell.

++++
So all gloomy future we are heading to? Since human will make mistakes and we are not angels, and our filthy desires pushes us toward arrogance?

We have to learn how to be humble, sincere, forgiving and have PATIENCE. Practice that in our worldly affairs. Don't we practice this in the Month of Ramadan anyways? So it is achievable. The only way to do that is go back to the Quran and read, understand, practice and convey. No one enters paradise without being tested. We actually make our own destiny.

Never lose hope. He is the MOST MERIFUL. Our Lord has made it compulsion on Him to forgive those who SINCERELY seek repentance. If you sincerely repent then you can't do it again. By chance, if you do it again, then ask forgiveness again. Be satisfied with what God has given us. It is His mercy we breathe. It is His Mercy that our hearts pump blood, lungs inflate and deflate. We cannot count the blessing that He has given us. That is why one of the most repeated verse in the Quran is "So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny?" From here on, if you hear the above verse anywhere, answer it with saying "we do not deny any of our Lord's favors". monay monay bolley kono khoti nai.

And if you are forgiven, imagine what awaits for you. It is the knowledge that your Lord is satisfied with you. What more can be achieved? Why wouldn't that bring peace in your heart? One wouldn't have any worries then. He is under the protection of Allah. No harm can touch him unless his Lord wants to test him more to put him in higher pedestal. May Allah Subhana watala accept our sincere repentance, and keep us in the right path.

ahnaf
July 31, 2016, 08:11 AM
I don't know about fault, all I know is the way stoning is supposed to take place just feels not right.



I just cannot associate that with the mercy of Allah that we know,

I believe in ahadith, but for some reason the spirit in some ahadith is way harsher than what you find in the Quran ...

well, as mufti menk said on the very same lecture, the only time this punishment happened in our Islamic history, that was too during the time of our beloved Prophet (sw),when a women confessed multiple times despite being told to go away,maybe you didn't do this,allah kept your sin hidden for a reason. So, i cant see how one can question the authenticity of this matter.

tonmoy.dhaka
July 31, 2016, 10:36 AM
I am not a very emotional person, but I went into the washroom and cried after watching the movie "The Stoning of Soraya M" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1277737/) (inspired by true events) . I suggest people watching it if you ever get the chance.

brockley
July 31, 2016, 01:35 PM
I believe in reformation too Jadukor.
In the old testament or Torah it says to kill homosexuals,and suffer not for a witch to burn.
Jesus made Christianity possible that these things like these don't happen.

After the Spanish inquisation came Luther and a number of other scholars in the reformation.
The Catholic church killed millions in its persecution using the old testament values.Many muslims we're killed.
But the Catholic church evolved and then came the jesuits who are more liberal.

Jadukor
July 31, 2016, 08:11 PM
There is no way you can contextualize and legitimize stoning.

The woman was of bad character, not much different to electric chair etc etc. Nothing about this horrific act is godly. This is cruel to the extreme and horribly disproportionate for something like an adultery. Worst case scenario adultery destroys your marriage, would you want your wife/husband stoned to death for it as a sane person? No you wouldnt, you would be angry and heartbroken but you wouldnt have that person killed for it.

tonoy
August 1, 2016, 05:57 AM
Tonmoy and co, I just wanted to be clear that I am completely fine with a thread questioning of Islam or heck even a thread where a reformation of Islam could genuinely be discussed. It just seemed to me that this thread, although is named as questioning of religion in modern society, seemed to just question Islam's nature and seems to allude to suggesting about reformation of Islam. If that isn't the case, I would like to apologize for reading it differently.
I just want to start off by mentioning that when it comes to the study of Islam, I would be one of the least qualified person to speak about it. I do not know most of the hadith and specific quotes about beheading and the 72 virgins etc. In modern society, concepts such as these will definitely seem barbaric and uncultured and I'm not denying that or advocating it what so ever. However, to pretend as though it was never mentioned in Quran or hadith and deny it's existence is in itself a fundamental belief that there is a fault within islam. To me, reformation means finding a flaw in the core idea or value, which in turn needs to be corrected. I am a firm believer that no part of the quran should ever need to be changed or be censored as it is the word of Allah.

That's not to say I am advocating any such barbaric acts. Practices as such these could have been justified at a time such as the medieval age, where strong centralized governance was lacking and law was left on an individual. However, there is no such excuse to continue that in this day and age. And I wished we had more Imams and scholars convey that message and not just a few in youtube. If that is the type of reformation that you are speaking of, then I'm all on board. A reformation where a believer questions his resolve and determination and then tries to change his approach of life. A reformation where the believer acknowledges his humanity and accepts its frailty. A reformation where a believer understands that although Islam itself is perfected, one's faith is a never ending pursuit of learning. I sincerely believe that Islam today has some of the most ignorant and uninformed followers within its group.

I honestly don't have the perfect answer to many questions raised by posters here and I'm not going to pretend to know them. At the end of the day, I am just a man with many flaws. I don't pray five times a day nor do I perform many tasks that are expected of a good muslim. But I do believe in Allah and my belief in him has been stronger than ever due to many personal experiences in various facets of my life.I'm all for questioning one's interpretation and adaptation. But attacking the core idea of a faith by attempting to allude to a flaw within it is where I draw the line. I won't of course resort to censorship or intimidation for expressing their opinion. But I hope that I am allowed to at least express my disapproval for such notion. I should not need to apologize or feel guilty for someone committing heinous crime because of his perversion of Islam. I should only be grieving for the loss of so many innocent lives.

roman
August 1, 2016, 11:11 AM
I have never seen any Imam talk about the verses that are indeed controversial and need clarification. Never have I seen any Imam explaining financing in details, what should be our opinion about LGBT and many more. We see this surge of terrorism because we are very vulnerable. We do not have basic knowledge about Islam (including me). Hardly any Jummah khutbah focuses on our daily challenges and what steps we need to take to overcome those.They always focus on very limited topics, like how Adam PBUH was created, how many hoors we will get in paradise, how terrible the jahannam really is and so on. As a result it is very easy to manipulate us, brain wash us

I do understand that we can always do our own research and get educated, but I think our Mosques should play an important role in developing our knowledge about Islam. But unfortunately I see them more focused on collecting donations and building new mosques. What is the purpose of building mosques if you do nothing to fill the mosques with knowledgeable pious men and women?

Tigers_eye
August 1, 2016, 02:27 PM
Accepted Repentance - Noman Ali Khan. That is the way to get to heaven. We truly deceive ourselves with making excuses.

https://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylc=X3oDMTFiN25laTRvBF9TAzIwMjM1MzgwNzUEaX RjAzEEc2VjA3NyY2hfcWEEc2xrA3NyY2h3ZWI-?p=noman+ali+khan+khutba&fr=yfp-t-m&fp=1&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8

Powerful khutba - in English.

Rifat
August 2, 2016, 08:01 AM
I have never seen any Imam talk about the verses that are indeed controversial and need clarification. Never have I seen any Imam explaining financing in details, what should be our opinion about LGBT and many more. We see this surge of terrorism because we are very vulnerable. We do not have basic knowledge about Islam (including me). Hardly any Jummah khutbah focuses on our daily challenges and what steps we need to take to overcome those.They always focus on very limited topics, like how Adam PBUH was created, how many hoors we will get in paradise, how terrible the jahannam really is and so on. As a result it is very easy to manipulate us, brain wash us

I do understand that we can always do our own research and get educated, but I think our Mosques should play an important role in developing our knowledge about Islam. But unfortunately I see them more focused on collecting donations and building new mosques. What is the purpose of building mosques if you do nothing to fill the mosques with knowledgeable pious men and women?

You are mostly correct for what you said except i would add that it really depends on what community you live in. Some Muslim communities in Dallas, California and even in New York have amazing qualified imams who tackle all of the above mentioned issues.

With All due respect, Many masjids are very very ethno-centric and the Imams may be very qualified from a Islamic Theory point of view but they may not necessarily be well versed in American culture or dissecting the needs of the people. Hence why many of them fail to give khutbahs that people can relate to.

Rifat
August 2, 2016, 08:41 AM
I am a believer of Allah but I don't think I know a lot of detalied informations regarding Islam.
I am tempted to put forth some questions and I apologize in advance if I offend anyone. That's not the intention. First of all, what does Islam say about placing humanity above everything? I mean can a muslim be cordial/friendly to a person of LGBT community even though he does not support the idea of it?
Doesn't out religion tell, God is the ultimate decider? No mere mortals can decide who's true Imaandaar and who's not? In that case, the terroists do not have the right to call anyone kafir and neither do we have been given the privilege of declaring them un-islamic.. isn't it?
Again apologies if I offend anyone.

So on face value, Islam teaches us to be nice to everyone. Quran 2:83... At the same time as an obedient slave of Allah and a Muslim we should never assist in sin, nor should we ever encouraging sin. That's how you draw the line between being nice to people and at the same time staying true to the teachings of Islam. There is a principle in Islam called (husnus Dhwaan)(Making good assumptions of your fellow Muslims) combine this principle with hiding sins meaning the bad things I do not know about you stays hidden and I will continue to be nice to you and assume only good things.

Having desires does not necessarily mean i have to always fulfill it. that's what distinguishes humans from Animals. On the other extreme, Suppressing desires all the time is not good. Islam teaches us to channel those desires in the proper way(marriage).

According to Qur'an, the wife of Lot was destroyed not because she herself was homosexual but because she assisted others in that act. I am not going to sugercoat what Qur'an says on this topic.

I know what i say will offend some people, but when when prophets(God's peace and blessings be upon them)(I am human and i have tons of shortcomings) brought the message to the people they were met with hostility and harsh criticism... facing criticism online from people i barely know is nothing compared to that :)

In summary, you should be nice to everyone as long as you are not assisting in sin. You can sympathize with All human lives and beings, be part of the collective human phyche and human experience and still maintain your imaan/Islam. for example, when a jewish women died, the beloved Prophet of Allah(SalAllahu A'laihe wasallam) cried profusely...he was upset that he was unable to save her from the hellfire....this is our prophet, who cried for people he never even met.

ahnaf
August 2, 2016, 08:53 AM
Perfectly goes with this topic.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/FB0fPgytIWc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Modad
August 3, 2016, 08:39 AM
i love this lecture from professor Matt Davis about the basics and fundamental beliefs within Islam. well articulated and vastly on point.

Part 1- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhGnglI4Ktg
part 2 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMzYtz8DUzo
part 3 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UZHiJY91Vs

Tigers_eye
August 4, 2016, 08:55 AM
Thank you Modad. The videos are long but explains perfectly to the Christian audience by a Christian. This should be posted in every facebook account so that the misguided youngs of the country know what Islam is suppose to be.

tonmoy.dhaka
August 4, 2016, 02:52 PM
Perfectly goes with this topic.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/FB0fPgytIWc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


As always, a very educational video from Nouman Ali Khan , he is my personal favorite among-st all the Islamic scholars. I must add that I despise most of the scholars because of their innate nature to blame everything on the west and become a terrorist apologist themselves.


I do not know if it is true, but apparently Nouman Ali Khan also once said that there can even be video games inside mosque to inspire kids to come to mosque, educate themselves about God and also have entertainment for them . (again, not sure if that is true). I really think the world needs more men like him

Finally, please share if there are any video's where he discussed the other topics that was put forward (beheading, Child marriage etc), I would love to get his views. Also if someone here can enlighten, I have heard that in Islam, a women who accuses a man of rape must also produce 4 witnesses... Is that true?

Banglatiger84
August 5, 2016, 06:27 AM
As always, a very educational video from Nouman Ali Khan , he is my personal favorite among-st all the Islamic scholars. I must add that I despise most of the scholars because of their innate nature to blame everything on the west and become a terrorist apologist themselves.




Not just scholars, but common so called "educated" people, including bengalis, many living in the West used to consider acts like 9-11, UK attacks, and violence through the 00's as "frustrated Muslims angry with American foreign policy".

And gullible western liberals used to pick on that say "if the US stops its support for Israel, all such attacks will stop:, yea right ......

It is only recently when acts have become more random and violent that those people are realizing that there are people who want to kill regardless of western foreign policy, a lot of which is evil.

Tigers_eye
August 5, 2016, 08:47 AM
As always, a very educational video from Nouman Ali Khan , he is my personal favorite among-st all the Islamic scholars. ...http://www.bing.com/search?q=understanding+Islam+Nauman+Ali+Khan&src=IE-SearchBox&FORM=IENTTR&conversationid=

Understanding Islam by Nauman Ali Khan. Some more Video links.

I do not know if it is true, but apparently Nouman Ali Khan also once said that there can even be video games inside mosque to inspire kids to come to mosque, educate themselves about God and also have entertainment for them . (again, not sure if that is true). I really think the world needs more men like himNAK lives in Plano, TX. He is affiliated with Baiyyana Institute (his project). This has courses that teaches Quranic Arabic language (Classical). The grammar, the words origin, and how Arabic language can be interpreted etc. I am not sure if they have online courses or not.

He has visited our Mosque several times for fundraisers. Attached to our Mosque at Little Rock, AR we have a Islamic School which is one of the best (Academically: English, Math, Science etc.) in the State. The School has a gymnasium where we pray our Friday Ju'ma prayers. We have a Youth center in the Gym where kids can play Table tennis, video games (PS3, Nintendo), Arcade etc. Yes, NAK would do anything to attract kids to the mosque. He played Basketball with our kids while he stayed here almost every time (except in the Ramadan). This is part of his mission. As long as any activity that does not prevent someone to forget to pray, any games are permissible. Be it watching/playing Cricket - Football - Carom - Chess - Suduku etc. (something not obscene/indecent.) Playing Cards (game of chance) should be okay if there is no Money involved. The key is, not being distracted and forgetting to pray.

Finally, please share if there are any video's where he discussed the other topics that was put forward (beheading, Child marriage etc), I would love to get his views. Also if someone here can enlighten, I have heard that in Islam, a women who accuses a man of rape must also produce 4 witnesses... Is that true?Why would you want people to share videos that is un-Islamic in this thread? I told you already that Islam doesn't allow child marriage. It is a cultural thing. There is a verse that I posted in this thread already.

If one is to accuse someone for Adultery, the accuser must produce 4 witnesses. Because of the seriousness of the accusation and the consequences. You see, this is already talking about Prostitution because that is the only place you can bring in 4 witnesses. We need to understand when the verses were revealed and why it was revealed. Allah Subhana watala do not impose hardship on anyone.

tonmoy.dhaka
August 5, 2016, 02:22 PM
http://www.bing.com/search?q=understanding+Islam+Nauman+Ali+Khan&src=IE-SearchBox&FORM=IENTTR&conversationid=

I told you already that Islam doesn't allow child marriage. It is a cultural thing. There is a verse that I posted in this thread already.



https://www.rt.com/news/329157-pakistan-child-marriage-law-islam/

Please read the news I posted above (it is from this year)

Again, there is no way to word it without sounding offensive. But the Prophet himself had a wife whom he married when she was 6 (although that age is disputed between 6 and 12 ).

Rifat
August 5, 2016, 03:17 PM
https://www.rt.com/news/329157-pakistan-child-marriage-law-islam/

Please read the news I posted above (it is from this year)

Again, there is no way to word it without sounding offensive. But the Prophet himself had a wife whom he married when she was 6 (although that age is disputed between 6 and 12 ).

Please note the couple of following points:

Islam was under severe criticism and almost to the point of extinction (battle of Badr was divinely protected, if Muslims lost that battle Islam would not have existed today). There were many people during the Prophet SalAllahu A'laihe wasallam's time wanted to exterminate Islam from the face of the planet. They accused the Prophet SalAllahu A'laihe wasllam of all kinds of blasphemous things such as he was a madman, poet, magician....but they never ever made fun of the fact that he married a very young women... It was common in that time that Women reach puberty very early. In very hot humid conditions, women can reach puberty as early as 8 years old. The point I am trying to make is that if Marrying A'yesha was something people use to make fun at the Prophet (SalAllahu A'laihe wasallam) the makkan polytheists and islamophobes would have done so...but they didn't.

Intellectual maturity: Women at that time used to mature very very early.

Laws establishing a legal age of marriage was not established in many states in the US except within the last 100 years. Today, even in some states, such law does not exist.

Last point: A'yesha(may Allah be pleased with her) narrated the most of the Hadiths and the traditions of the Prophet (SalAllahu A'laihe wasallam)...tell any women to write a biography about her husband and see how many of the pages are filled with complaints/faults and yet all Ayesha has nothing to say about her husband except good. It was the order of Allah that Prophet Mohammad(SalAllahu A'laihe wasallam) married her after seeing a dream(Prophet's are not ordinary people, their dreams are revelation). Not only that her father Abu Bakr and her mother approved. Not only that, half of Islaam was preserved through her. It was Allah's wisdom that Allah chose her to carry the legacy of Islaam.


Dear Tonmoy, I do not know you. I do not know who you are. There is no point convincing you about the truth of the message of Islaam. but know this, Islam is truth and Islam is divinely protected and regardless of whether we believe it or not God almighty who created the universe will protect its message and there is nothing we can do to oppose that. Day of Judgement will happen and there is not much we can do about it when it does happen.


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2012/sep/17/muhammad-aisha-truth

tonmoy.dhaka
August 5, 2016, 03:32 PM
Dear Rifat,
I am not sure if you read my previous post but I please note I have said the exact thing that you quoted.

I said that even my grandparents married young and they had a long fruitful life and relationship.
Where we may disagree is the fact that while this was accepted in the past, it is not acceptable anymore. Hence Islam needs REFORMATION...

If you do not reform Islam, many girls would suffer in conservative societies in Pakistan, Saudi, Bangladesh etc.

Rifat
August 5, 2016, 03:51 PM
Dear Rifat,
I am not sure if you read my previous post but I please note I have said the exact thing that you quoted.

I said that even my grandparents married young and they had a long fruitful life and relationship.
Where we may disagree is the fact that while this was accepted in the past, it is not acceptable anymore. Hence Islam needs REFORMATION...

If you do not reform Islam, many girls would suffer in conservative societies in Pakistan, Saudi, Bangladesh etc.

What type of reformation are we talking about? The core message of Islam will be protected by God. The problem is culture....lots of cultural things meshed up with Islam caused a lot of problems and still causing loads of problems. So, yes I am all for decoupling culture from Islam. That kind of Reformation is very much needed.

Let's find common ground. I also agree that our Understanding of Islam as a whole needs to evolve in the sense that there are things only applicable to Prophet SalAllahu A'laihe wasallam or his time(many Reputable if not all mainstream scholars of Islam will agree with me on this point) . People need to read the Qur'an as a whole instead of nitpicking verses...People need to study the life of Prophet SalAllahu A"laihe wasallam as a whole not just nitpicking events here and there. we need to have a holistic approach to Islam. When I say these things I am talking about the whole world, whole Muslim ummah not individuals specifically because according to a verse in Qur'an the Prophet (SalAllahu A'laihe wasallam) will complain to God that "My Lord, My people have deserted this Qur'an" in the day of judgement

People are not saints. People with corrupt intentions will take religion into their own hand and cause mischief and corruption on earth and give the religion a bad name. Not everybody is a saint. The highest form of corruption is spiritual corruption.

There is no compulsion is Islam

tonmoy.dhaka
August 5, 2016, 06:28 PM
What type of reformation are we talking about? The core message of Islam will be protected by God. The problem is culture....lots of cultural things meshed up with Islam caused a lot of problems and still causing loads of problems. So, yes I am all for decoupling culture from Islam. That kind of Reformation is very much needed.

Let's find common ground. I also agree that our Understanding of Islam as a whole needs to evolve in the sense that there are things only applicable to Prophet SalAllahu A'laihe wasallam or his time(many Reputable if not all mainstream scholars of Islam will agree with me on this point) . People need to read the Qur'an as a whole instead of nitpicking verses...People need to study the life of Prophet SalAllahu A"laihe wasallam as a whole not just nitpicking events here and there. we need to have a holistic approach to Islam. When I say these things I am talking about the whole world, whole Muslim ummah not individuals specifically because according to a verse in Qur'an the Prophet (SalAllahu A'laihe wasallam) will complain to God that "My Lord, My people have deserted this Qur'an" in the day of judgement

People are not saints. People with corrupt intentions will take religion into their own hand and cause mischief and corruption on earth and give the religion a bad name. Not everybody is a saint. The highest form of corruption is spiritual corruption.

There is no compulsion is Islam


I would have drawn a flow chart if I could. I have made a simple request and you have made a generalized statement without answering the question.

Q/ Did Islam permit Child Marriage
Ans/ The answer seems to be "Yes" based on the interpretation of the majority scholars (as indicated through the news article I posted). I do not think the scholars will change that interpretation given that the prophet had a young wife.

Q/ So does that mean we should support Child Marriage?
Ans.. For me the answer is No... In this modern world that kind of thing is unimaginable..

Q/ So do we reform
Ans: If you do not agree with child marriage and if Islam agreed with it in the past than Yes we must reform.

I hope people here can agree...

Jadukor
August 5, 2016, 08:46 PM
I think Rifat answered you tonmoy. He said we need to decouple culture from Islam. There used to be a culture of young marriages in your grand parents time and now there isnt.

tonmoy.dhaka
August 5, 2016, 09:27 PM
I think Rifat answered you tonmoy. He said we need to decouple culture from Islam. There used to be a culture of young marriages in your grand parents time and now there isnt.

I would whole heartedly disagree with the "Now there isnt" part

Of course there is, I have posted a link where the government of Pakistan even failed to ban such practices.

Similarly, sex slaves are also a thing in war torn region (and not something that doesnt exist in present day as some here boldly claims)... They were used by Pakistani soilders during our war of independence (You can read about Birongonas) and there are plenty that ISIS is using in Syria and Iraq.

mufi_02
August 5, 2016, 09:59 PM
^^ correct me if I am wrong, but is there any explicit order/ruling from the Quran or authentic narration that child marriage is allowed ?? Like it says in any verse (you can marry 6 year old) or any hadith??

I know both guy and the girl has to go through a) puberty b) give consent -- in order to be legally married.

Anher
August 5, 2016, 10:27 PM
As we are talking about child marrige at this stage in light of Quran and Hadith..thought post below link which sums up this matter quite well.

the Quran is the primary source of guidance in Islam, secondary sources can only be accepted if and only they do not contradict the Quran, or add additional rules to it. For, the Quran is fully detailed, perfect, and complete (6:114-115) and acts as the Criterion (Furqan) above all (25:1).

Does The Quran Really Permit Child Marriage? (https://quranalyzeit.wordpress.com/2014/03/18/cii-vs-islam-does-the-quran-really-permit-child-marriage/)

Tigers_eye
August 6, 2016, 09:04 AM
It is time.

Child marriage is NOT ALLOWED in Islam. Again for your convenience, Sura Nisa (4) Verse 19:
O You who have chosen to be graced with belief! It is not lawful for you to force WOMEN into marrying or holding on to them in marriage against their will.

The verse clearly mentions "women". The woman must agree to the marriage. This is an authentic source (and there is no scope to doubt). If the whole world proclaims otherwise, DISBELIEF and DISREGARD. Khali kolshi baje beshi. ...
But the Prophet himself had a wife whom he married when she was 6 (although that age is disputed between 6 and 12 ).1. This is a false statement. It is a lie. I had asked you before to produce the original source. An authentic source. Nor you nor ANYONE can do that because there isn't one. Prophet's (PBUH) staunchest enemies, who wanted to kill him didn't even mention anything as such lie. Nor did the sahabas, even Abu Bakr, the father of the said person who is being accused, ever mentioned anything like this. No where in the Sira of prophet (PBUH) is something like is ever mentioned.

2. Therefore, I humbly request, do not make this false allegation that you have no knowledge of. Such allegations only harms you and no one else. You have been warned a second time and Allah Subhana watala sees and hears everything.

3. Any person cannot all of a sudden become a SEX-MANIAC at the age of 53+. There has to be some kind of previous engagement that shows such behavior. Those who study human behavior in modern times, would attest to that. Let alone a prophet of Allah. He married a 15 year older woman who was a widow. For 20+ years he stayed in that marriage till her death. He didn't re-marry while she was alive. His love for her didn't diminish after her death. That is the person that you are portraying as a sexmaniac?

4. Following the Prophet (PBUH): If you want to marry a young woman just because he did it (Sunnah'r dohai), then before doing it, marry a woman who is 15 years older than you. And stay married for 25+ years first. Jottoshob!!! That is the first Sunnah on marriage, is it not? There are certain things Prophets did that we are not capable of doing, nor do we understand.

5. Back then marriage was the primary element to strengthen the relations between different tribes. Marriage to a different tribe was the number 1 element to avoid wars between different tribes (ref. Ibn khaldun introduction)

For this reason the Prophet (pbuh), tried to marry women from different tribes, even from Bani omayyah to decrease their aggressiveness toward himself, creating love possibly, and better spread of Islam.

For example when Umm Salamah from bani mahzum (the tribe of Abujahl and Khalid ibn valid) married the prophet, Khalid enemity towards the Prophet (pbuh) lessend very much and after not so long he embraced Islam. Another example is Juirieh and Safieh, which caused the calm down of Bani nazir and bani mutlaq. For the marriage of Juirieh with the Prophet (pbuh), the sahabah released 100 captives of war since they became relatives with the Prophet (pbuh).

6. Dreams of Prophets are direct command of Allah subhana watala. Just like Ibrahim (A) was instructed to sacrifice his son through dreams. We still follow the tradition in Eid-ul-Adha sacrificing an animal. Prophet Muhammad saw two dreams of Aesha's face and a voice telling him this is your wife. Authentic Hadith. So he went to Abu Bakr and conveyed the message. Allah SUbnaha watala does what he pleases. He is the one who has infinite wisdom. Because of that marriage we know how the Prophet behaved or did inside the closed doors where sahabis didn't have access. We even know how to perform tayammum when there is no water. These came from Aesha (ra).

7. Since you or anyone wouldn't be able to find an authentic source of the lie of Aesha (ra)'s age, allow me to share where this lie originated. Several centuries after the prophet (PBUH) passed away, to smear and slander the Prophet's (PBUH) character (Since they couldn't attack the message) found Aesha (ra) biography where there was one entry of when she met Prophet (PBUH). This is the same lady who has never said anything bad about the prophet (PBUH). This is the same lady whom we are talking about how funny.

In that single entry she narrates (summary) that she was 9 and playing in the court yard, and her PARANTS called her in. She met Prophet (PBUH) and her parents said that the Prophet has brought marriage proposal. Little did she knew what was going on. And then she went back to the courtyard to resume her play. Then after several years, she reached a mature age, Prophet (PBUH) came to ask again. (Since it was a command from Allah, he couldn't just let it go. Just like he would not stop preaching even if the Quraish would put a sun on his right hand and a moon on his left). Her parents brought her in again and asked her. Now she was fully grown woman who knew what marriage meant. With her consent, with her PARENTS consent they agree to marry. That is all that is there. NO CHILD MARRIAGE.

So whom ever hear a lie against your prophet (PBUH), speak the truth.

FYI, in several states in US, a 12 year old can get legally married with her parents consent. What year is this?

bujhee kom
August 6, 2016, 02:01 PM
...

FYI, in several states in US, a 12 year old can get legally married with her parents consent. What year is this?

Legal age of marriage in the U.S. is 16 yrs. (with parental consent) in all states except:
Georgia, Idaho, Mississippi, Missouri and Hawaii - 15 yrs.
Indiana - 17 yrs.
New Hampshire - 13 yrs for females and 14 yrs for boys. (Parental consent and court permission)
Massachusetts - Judicial consent and 12 yrs for females and 14 yrs for boys (may still be in effect)

*Arizona, California and Colorado - NO minimum age required and with approval of a superior court judge or judicial consent AND parental consent.

If I knew what's going on a bit earlier, I could have been a LEGAL great grand father by now.

bujhee kom
August 6, 2016, 02:11 PM
I sometimes think about pork chop.
I know it is not approved, but just thinking if the pig is raised clean. I am just wondering, that's all.

What if by mistake, a little bit in let's say in poke fried rice...or a little bit of sausage.
How about pepperoni? Pepperoni, no good?

Tigers_eye
August 6, 2016, 03:36 PM
I sometimes think about pork chop.
I know it is not approved, but just thinking if the pig is raised clean. I am just wondering, that's all.

What if by mistake, a little bit in let's say in poke fried rice...or a little bit of sausage.
How about pepperoni? Pepperoni, no good?
Your humor is legendary.

The answer is still "no". Why you gonna be so rude? Don't you know I'm human too...
+++
Louisiana 12 with parents consent.

brockley
August 6, 2016, 11:37 PM
Why we even discussing child marriage:facepalm:,der.:waiting:
Does not shouldn't happen,for me 48 and unmarried I think 18 too young too marry,make it 21.

Fazal
August 8, 2016, 02:01 PM
I sometimes think about pork chop.
I know it is not approved, but just thinking if the pig is raised clean. I am just wondering, that's all.

What if by mistake, a little bit in let's say in poke fried rice...or a little bit of sausage.
How about pepperoni? Pepperoni, no good?

add to that.... baby back ribs dipped with bbq sauce.

tonmoy.dhaka
August 8, 2016, 03:19 PM
It is time.

Child marriage is NOT ALLOWED in Islam. Again for your convenience, Sura Nisa (4) Verse 19:
O You who have chosen to be graced with belief! It is not lawful for you to force WOMEN into marrying or holding on to them in marriage against their will.

The verse clearly mentions "women". The woman must agree to the marriage. This is an authentic source (and there is no scope to doubt). If the whole world proclaims otherwise, DISBELIEF and DISREGARD. Khali kolshi baje beshi. 1. This is a false statement. It is a lie. I had asked you before to produce the original source. An authentic source. Nor you nor ANYONE can do that because there isn't one. Prophet's (PBUH) staunchest enemies, who wanted to kill him didn't even mention anything as such lie. Nor did the sahabas, even Abu Bakr, the father of the said person who is being accused, ever mentioned anything like this. No where in the Sira of prophet (PBUH) is something like is ever mentioned.

2. Therefore, I humbly request, do not make this false allegation that you have no knowledge of. Such allegations only harms you and no one else. You have been warned a second time and Allah Subhana watala sees and hears everything.

3. Any person cannot all of a sudden become a SEX-MANIAC at the age of 53+. There has to be some kind of previous engagement that shows such behavior. Those who study human behavior in modern times, would attest to that. Let alone a prophet of Allah. He married a 15 year older woman who was a widow. For 20+ years he stayed in that marriage till her death. He didn't re-marry while she was alive. His love for her didn't diminish after her death. That is the person that you are portraying as a sexmaniac?

4. Following the Prophet (PBUH): If you want to marry a young woman just because he did it (Sunnah'r dohai), then before doing it, marry a woman who is 15 years older than you. And stay married for 25+ years first. Jottoshob!!! That is the first Sunnah on marriage, is it not? There are certain things Prophets did that we are not capable of doing, nor do we understand.

5. Back then marriage was the primary element to strengthen the relations between different tribes. Marriage to a different tribe was the number 1 element to avoid wars between different tribes (ref. Ibn khaldun introduction)

For this reason the Prophet (pbuh), tried to marry women from different tribes, even from Bani omayyah to decrease their aggressiveness toward himself, creating love possibly, and better spread of Islam.

For example when Umm Salamah from bani mahzum (the tribe of Abujahl and Khalid ibn valid) married the prophet, Khalid enemity towards the Prophet (pbuh) lessend very much and after not so long he embraced Islam. Another example is Juirieh and Safieh, which caused the calm down of Bani nazir and bani mutlaq. For the marriage of Juirieh with the Prophet (pbuh), the sahabah released 100 captives of war since they became relatives with the Prophet (pbuh).

6. Dreams of Prophets are direct command of Allah subhana watala. Just like Ibrahim (A) was instructed to sacrifice his son through dreams. We still follow the tradition in Eid-ul-Adha sacrificing an animal. Prophet Muhammad saw two dreams of Aesha's face and a voice telling him this is your wife. Authentic Hadith. So he went to Abu Bakr and conveyed the message. Allah SUbnaha watala does what he pleases. He is the one who has infinite wisdom. Because of that marriage we know how the Prophet behaved or did inside the closed doors where sahabis didn't have access. We even know how to perform tayammum when there is no water. These came from Aesha (ra).

7. Since you or anyone wouldn't be able to find an authentic source of the lie of Aesha (ra)'s age, allow me to share where this lie originated. Several centuries after the prophet (PBUH) passed away, to smear and slander the Prophet's (PBUH) character (Since they couldn't attack the message) found Aesha (ra) biography where there was one entry of when she met Prophet (PBUH). This is the same lady who has never said anything bad about the prophet (PBUH). This is the same lady whom we are talking about how funny.

In that single entry she narrates (summary) that she was 9 and playing in the court yard, and her PARANTS called her in. She met Prophet (PBUH) and her parents said that the Prophet has brought marriage proposal. Little did she knew what was going on. And then she went back to the courtyard to resume her play. Then after several years, she reached a mature age, Prophet (PBUH) came to ask again. (Since it was a command from Allah, he couldn't just let it go. Just like he would not stop preaching even if the Quraish would put a sun on his right hand and a moon on his left). Her parents brought her in again and asked her. Now she was fully grown woman who knew what marriage meant. With her consent, with her PARENTS consent they agree to marry. That is all that is there. NO CHILD MARRIAGE.

So whom ever hear a lie against your prophet (PBUH), speak the truth.

FYI, in several states in US, a 12 year old can get legally married with her parents consent. What year is this?


I will be the first person to admit to my mistake...
To be honest, I really do not care about her age, I am only concerned about what it might mean for certain societies today. When I will get some time, I will try to educate myself further on the controversy before saying anything here. Just want to add that all the contents I have read or watched from different source , no one denied her young age, they only justified it through different logic.

Now on the important issue of Today..
The fact is that many scholars (Or I should say most scholars) agree that wedding age is when the girl reaches her puberty and thats it. That is clearly not how it should be. If you think that is a wrong interpretation, than I think all muslims should speak up to make that point clearer. Because girls are suffering in different societies because of this wrong interpretation.

There are many things about USA that I do not agree with and legal age in certain states will be another such thing.

Now I would like to copy a comment from a friend from another forum. I agree with the sentiment of it.

From Yasir:
My point is simple, you just cannot blame people all the time and give free pass to religion... It's like saying racism is great idea, it motivates and unites you, help you perform above your potential as a group... It may does those things, but there is a big side effect and philosophy has to be blame for that... If Fanatics are running the show, that's not a surprise, we have seen that before too...Culture shall create environment where people use more rational neurons than the emotional ones, that's only way to make progress. -

Sylheti_Beta
August 9, 2016, 07:24 AM
Religion and its dogmatic stances are legendary. Claim all that's good and obfuscate or shift blame for things that are not so good while playing on personal guilt. It’s a treatise in inanity, hollow claims and assertions from authority. Logic and science are used as ineffective crutches to prop it all up with little success:

The most common claim is that the world requires a more sophisticated creator, God.
The premise in this approach is:
Since complex things cannot come about on their own, a creator is required.
All looks well up until this point in terms of logic. But hang on.

Further introspection proceeds to destroy the premise:
This complex creator came about automatically and did not need another creator.
So complex things can and do come about on their own.

There are several other approaches used in religious debate, let’s look at them briefly.


Arguments from Ignorance.
This is a commonly used approach which states that something must be true because it has not been, or can't be, proven false. If you can't prove that god doesn't exist, that means god must exist.


Appealing to pity.
Why are you so intent on destroying something that makes so many poor, sick and miserable people happy ?


Repetition Fallacy
Something is likely to be true the more often it is said. God exists. How many times do i have to tell you?


Fallacy that something is right because it's new.
Of course x is the true religion, y is the most recent prophet.


Fallacy that something is correct based on the amount of people who believe it.
Look how many people believe in God, They can't all be wrong.


Fallacy of presenting a situation as having only two answers.
Evolution may be wrong or have missing links, so that means religion is right.


Circular Logic - The premise that what you are trying to prove is evidence of itself.
The book is the word of god because it says it is, and it can't be wrong, because after all, It is the word of god.


Fallacy of asserting that events occurring simultaneously must be causally related.
With all these natural disasters occurring how can you deny that god isn't punishing us?


Fallacy of demanding a simplistic answer to a complex question.
If god didn't create the universe then explain what did.


The fallacy that flaws in one religion can be justified by pointing to flaws in another.
This is commonly used to obfuscate and sneakily justify flaws in religion.


Personal Attacks.
The fallacy that insulting your opponent is a substitute for refuting their ideas,
Examples:
1) Your'e being misguided by Shaytaan
2) God has put a veil across your eyes
3) You need to open your mind
4) You believe this because you've been hanging around non-believers for too long
5) You believe this because you've strayed from the straight path
6) Random name calling, bigotry, insults, etc.
Number 6 is usually the last resort of the intellectually challenged.
A lot of examples all over the internet and many on other threads in this forum itself provide ample proof.

There are many such approaches including the Free Will fallacy which I covered in an earlier post.

Sylheti_Beta
August 9, 2016, 07:36 AM
From Yasir:

My point is simple, you just cannot blame people all the time and give free pass to religion... It's like saying racism is great idea, it motivates and unites you, help you perform above your potential as a group... It may does those things, but there is a big side effect and philosophy has to be blame for that... If Fanatics are running the show, that's not a surprise, we have seen that before too...Culture shall create environment where people use more rational neurons than the emotional ones, that's only way to make progress. -
:applause: Excellent points, rationality on the rise.

dolcevita
August 9, 2016, 09:22 AM
Religion and its dogmatic stances are legendary. Claim all that's good and obfuscate or shift blame for things that are not so good while playing on personal guilt. It’s a treatise in inanity, hollow claims and assertions from authority. Logic and science are used as ineffective crutches to prop it all up with little success:

The most common claim is that the world requires a more sophisticated creator, God.
The premise in this approach is:
Since complex things cannot come about on their own, a creator is required.
All looks well up until this point in terms of logic. But hang on.

Further introspection proceeds to destroy the premise:
This complex creator came about automatically and did not need another creator.
So complex things can and do come about on their own.

There are several other approaches used in religious debate, let’s look at them briefly.


Arguments from Ignorance.
This is a commonly used approach which states that something must be true because it has not been, or can't be, proven false. If you can't prove that god doesn't exist, that means god must exist.


Appealing to pity.
Why are you so intent on destroying something that makes so many poor, sick and miserable people happy ?


Repetition Fallacy
Something is likely to be true the more often it is said. God exists. How many times do i have to tell you?


Fallacy that something is right because it's new.
Of course x is the true religion, y is the most recent prophet.


Fallacy that something is correct based on the amount of people who believe it.
Look how many people believe in God, They can't all be wrong.


Fallacy of presenting a situation as having only two answers.
Evolution may be wrong or have missing links, so that means religion is right.


Circular Logic - The premise that what you are trying to prove is evidence of itself.
The book is the word of god because it says it is, and it can't be wrong, because after all, It is the word of god.


Fallacy of asserting that events occurring simultaneously must be causally related.
With all these natural disasters occurring how can you deny that god isn't punishing us?


Fallacy of demanding a simplistic answer to a complex question.
If god didn't create the universe then explain what did.


The fallacy that flaws in one religion can be justified by pointing to flaws in another.
This is commonly used to obfuscate and sneakily justify flaws in religion.


Personal Attacks.
The fallacy that insulting your opponent is a substitute for refuting their ideas,
Examples:
1) Your'e being misguided by Shaytaan
2) God has put a veil across your eyes
3) You need to open your mind
4) You believe this because you've been hanging around non-believers for too long
5) You believe this because you've strayed from the straight path
6) Random name calling, bigotry, insults, etc.
Number 6 is usually the last resort of the intellectually challenged.
A lot of examples all over the internet and many on other threads in this forum itself provide ample proof.

There are many such approaches including the Free Will fallacy which I covered in an earlier post.

In his novel DEMONS, Destoyevsky said:
"God is the pain of the fear of death" (Kirilov)

"Man has done nothing but invent God, so as to live without killing himself; in that lies the whole of world history up to now."(Kirilov)

Rifat
August 9, 2016, 09:28 AM
I sometimes think about pork chop.
I know it is not approved, but just thinking if the pig is raised clean. I am just wondering, that's all.

What if by mistake, a little bit in let's say in poke fried rice...or a little bit of sausage.
How about pepperoni? Pepperoni, no good?

Ever had vegan sausage? you can get it at whole foods...

Tigers_eye
August 9, 2016, 10:31 AM
...

Now on the important issue of Today..
The fact is that many scholars (Or I should say most scholars) agree that wedding age is when the girl reaches her puberty and thats it. That is clearly not how it should be. If you think that is a wrong interpretation, than I think all muslims should speak up to make that point clearer. Because girls are suffering in different societies because of this wrong interpretation.No, it is not "That's it". This is a cultural issue and has nothing to do with Islam. If the Mollahs and so called SCHOLARS says differently then they are in wrong. In the verse, it says, "women" and not "Girl". Second it says can not marry against her will. "No" means "no". Social pressure, financial pressure and cultural pressure doesn't make it Islamic. According to Sunnah, the parents would also have to have a consent as well.

In real life, if you are arguing with someone, or trying to defend a young woman from getting forcefully in to a wedlock, and they bring in religion in the discussion, mention the verse (4:19) and say to the groom/groom-bride's parents they are committing a sin and will have to answer for it, AND to Marry a 15+ year older widow FIRST. That is the real sunnah. :goal:

The basic thing is we don't treat woman equal in many of the decision making processes in our life. That has nothing to do with Islam. It is our corrupted society that we have created. Just like bribery, fraud, stealing, lying, killing etc.

Rifat
August 9, 2016, 10:39 AM
No, it is not "That's it". This is a cultural issue and has nothing to do with Islam. If the Mollahs and so called SCHOLARS says differently then they are in wrong. In the verse, it says, "women" and not "Girl". Second it says can not marry against her will. "No" means "no". Social pressure, financial pressure and cultural pressure doesn't make it Islamic. According to Sunnah, the parents would also have to have a consent as well.

In real life, if you are arguing with someone, or trying to defend a young woman from getting forcefully in to a wedlock, and they bring in religion in the discussion, mention the verse (4:19) and say to the groom/groom-bride's parents they are committing a sin and will have to answer for it, AND to Marry a 15+ year older widow FIRST. That is the real sunnah. :goal:

The basic thing is we don't treat woman equal in many of the decision making processes in our life. That has nothing to do with Islam. It is our corrupted society that we have created. Just like bribery, fraud, stealing, lying, killing etc.

very well put :)

Fazal
August 9, 2016, 12:30 PM
Ever had vegan sausage? you can get it at whole foods...

Vegan Sausage is like Shopno Dosh.

Either eat real sausage or don't eat at all.

mufi_02
August 9, 2016, 01:35 PM
Vegan Sausage is like Shopno Dosh.

Either eat real sausage or don't eat at all.

hehe. fazal mamu dekhi shopno doshi expert :D

on topic, carry on guys!!

Sylheti_Beta
August 10, 2016, 04:53 AM
Why aren't passion fruits, kiwi fruits or pineapples available in heaven ?
Why are only 7th Century Arab fruits mentioned ?

Shingara
August 10, 2016, 05:32 AM
It seems like most of you didn't do Quran khotom when you were young. And, then when you grew older, you didn't bother reading up on the English translation to find out the meaning and also did not read up on Hadis.

Shingara
August 10, 2016, 05:34 AM
I sometimes think about pork chop.
I know it is not approved, but just thinking if the pig is raised clean. I am just wondering, that's all.

What if by mistake, a little bit in let's say in poke fried rice...or a little bit of sausage.
How about pepperoni? Pepperoni, no good?

If Allah has said that eating pork is haram, then as a Muslim, you are obliged to not eat it. Who are you to question Him ? - He who made you and gave you life.

Sylheti_Beta
August 10, 2016, 08:34 AM
It seems like most of you didn't do Quran khotom when you were young. And, then when you grew older, you didn't bother reading up on the English translation to find out the meaning and also did not read up on Hadis.

This is a classic example of a personal attack. Casting aspersions on whether someone read up on religion :lol: or not; just because they don't toe the line or follow the flock.

Who are you to question Him ? - He who made you and gave you life.
Sounds like a indignant parent in action, a rhetorical question made from a position of perceived authority.
This usually has a downside. The person who you are asking this question of, can ask you "who are you to question me ?"E-) Works both ways.

Rifat
August 10, 2016, 08:45 AM
Why aren't passion fruits, kiwi fruits or pineapples available in heaven ?
Why are only 7th Century Arab fruits mentioned ?

who said they weren't?

http://quran.com/2:25

SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
And give good tidings to those who believe and do righteous deeds that they will have gardens [in Paradise] beneath which rivers flow. Whenever they are provided with a provision of fruit therefrom, they will say, "This is what we were provided with before." And it is given to them in likeness. And they will have therein purified spouses, and they will abide therein eternally.

MUHSIN KHAN
And give glad tidings to those who believe and do righteous good deeds, that for them will be Gardens under which rivers flow (Paradise). Every time they will be provided with a fruit therefrom, they will say: "This is what we were provided with before," and they will be given things in resemblance (i.e. in the same form but different in taste) and they shall have therein Azwajun Mutahharatun (purified mates or wives), (having no menses, stools, urine, etc.) and they will abide therein forever.

PICKTHALL
And give glad tidings (O Muhammad) unto those who believe and do good works; that theirs are Gardens underneath which rivers flow; as often as they are regaled with food of the fruit thereof, they say: this is what was given us aforetime; and it is given to them in resemblance. There for them are pure companions; there for ever they abide.

Qur'an Surah Baqarah, verse 25

Sylheti_Beta
August 10, 2016, 09:03 AM
who said they weren't?

http://quran.com/2:25


Qur'an Surah Baqarah, verse 25

The question was precise and a generalized answer like this is non sequitur.

Since I like to pay attention to detail, here's some fruit to chew on;

“He sends down water from the sky from which We bring forth growth of every kind, and from that We bring forth the green shoots and from them We bring forth close packed seeds, and, from that spathes of the date-palm, date clusters hanging down, and gardens of grapes and olives and pomegranates, both similar and dissimilar. Look at their fruits as they bear fruit and ripen. There are signs in that for people who believe.” (6:99)

“Amid thornless lote-trees, and banana-trees (with fruits), one above another, and extended shade, and water flowing constantly, and abundant fruit, neither intercepted nor forbidden.” (56:28-33)

“And a tree (olive) that springs forth from Mount Sinai, that grows oil, and (it is a) relish for the eaters.” (23:20)

“In the earth there are diverse regions side by side and gardens of grapes and cultivated fields, and date-palms sharing one root and others with individual roots, all watered with the same water. And We make some things better to eat than others. There are Signs in that for people who use their intellect.” (13:4)

In essence for the lack of better explanation fruits as mentioned here refer to the plural form of the fruits listed in the book. Twisting it further falls within the realm of apologists.

Rifat
August 10, 2016, 09:05 AM
Religion and its dogmatic stances are legendary. Claim all that's good and obfuscate or shift blame for things that are not so good while playing on personal guilt. It’s a treatise in inanity, hollow claims and assertions from authority. Logic and science are used as ineffective crutches to prop it all up with little success:

The most common claim is that the world requires a more sophisticated creator, God.
The premise in this approach is:
Since complex things cannot come about on their own, a creator is required.
All looks well up until this point in terms of logic. But hang on.

Further introspection proceeds to destroy the premise:
This complex creator came about automatically and did not need another creator.
So complex things can and do come about on their own.

There are several other approaches used in religious debate, let’s look at them briefly.


Arguments from Ignorance.
This is a commonly used approach which states that something must be true because it has not been, or can't be, proven false. If you can't prove that god doesn't exist, that means god must exist.


Appealing to pity.
Why are you so intent on destroying something that makes so many poor, sick and miserable people happy ?


Repetition Fallacy
Something is likely to be true the more often it is said. God exists. How many times do i have to tell you?


Fallacy that something is right because it's new.
Of course x is the true religion, y is the most recent prophet.


Fallacy that something is correct based on the amount of people who believe it.
Look how many people believe in God, They can't all be wrong.


Fallacy of presenting a situation as having only two answers.
Evolution may be wrong or have missing links, so that means religion is right.


Circular Logic - The premise that what you are trying to prove is evidence of itself.
The book is the word of god because it says it is, and it can't be wrong, because after all, It is the word of god.


Fallacy of asserting that events occurring simultaneously must be causally related.
With all these natural disasters occurring how can you deny that god isn't punishing us?


Fallacy of demanding a simplistic answer to a complex question.
If god didn't create the universe then explain what did.


The fallacy that flaws in one religion can be justified by pointing to flaws in another.
This is commonly used to obfuscate and sneakily justify flaws in religion.


Personal Attacks.
The fallacy that insulting your opponent is a substitute for refuting their ideas,
Examples:
1) Your'e being misguided by Shaytaan
2) God has put a veil across your eyes
3) You need to open your mind
4) You believe this because you've been hanging around non-believers for too long
5) You believe this because you've strayed from the straight path
6) Random name calling, bigotry, insults, etc.
Number 6 is usually the last resort of the intellectually challenged.
A lot of examples all over the internet and many on other threads in this forum itself provide ample proof.

There are many such approaches including the Free Will fallacy which I covered in an earlier post.


Arguments from Ignorance.
This is a commonly used approach which states that something must be true because it has not been, or can't be, proven false. If you can't prove that god doesn't exist, that means god must exist.

*) Everything has a creator, a manufacturer, nothing ever happens due to "random occurrence".

http://haqislam.org/imam-abu-hanifah-and-the-atheist/

Appealing to pity.
Why are you so intent on destroying something that makes so many poor, sick and miserable people happy ?

Are you implying that rich people don't need Islam, or that Happy, Healthy, Wealthy and successful people do not follow any religion? Mother Theresa was wealthy, happy and healthy but she was a devout catholic


Repetition Fallacy
Something is likely to be true the more often it is said. God exists. How many times do i have to tell you?

Truth is truth no matter how many times it is stated or unstated. Allah repeats many themes and verses in the Qur'an is because of the forgetful nature of mankind

Fallacy that something is right because it's new.
Of course x is the true religion, y is the most recent prophet.

I personally have not met any Muslim or anyone else claiming this in defense of Islam, but it is a poor argument i agree since the Sikhs invented their own prophet/God/Guru and Mormonism (Joseph Smith, American Prophet :lol:) is much more newer than Islam...but doesn't make it true

Fallacy that something is correct based on the amount of people who believe it.
Look how many people believe in God, They can't all be wrong.

Also Agree that it is a poor argument in defense of the existence of God. just Because a million of people believe in Nazism, Racism or Trumpism doesn't make it right or morally correct.

Fallacy of presenting a situation as having only two answers.
Evolution may be wrong or have missing links, so that means religion is right.

We do not have the answers to everything, and we probably never will since the Collective Human understanding has its limits and bounds. Everyday there are new discoveries being made and it may sound like a cliche but the more we know the more we realize how insignificant we really are and how much we don't know. To Validate the claims of any religion presenting an alternative to Evolution theory we study the texts and figure out what it actually says and evaluate from there(to believe or not to believe then is your person choice)

....

To be continued...

Rifat
August 10, 2016, 09:10 AM
The question was precise and a generalized answer like this is non sequitur.

Since I like to pay attention to detail, here's some fruit to chew on;

“He sends down water from the sky from which We bring forth growth of every kind, and from that We bring forth the green shoots and from them We bring forth close packed seeds, and, from that spathes of the date-palm, date clusters hanging down, and gardens of grapes and olives and pomegranates, both similar and dissimilar. Look at their fruits as they bear fruit and ripen. There are signs in that for people who believe.” (6:99)

“Amid thornless lote-trees, and banana-trees (with fruits), one above another, and extended shade, and water flowing constantly, and abundant fruit, neither intercepted nor forbidden.” (56:28-33)

“And a tree (olive) that springs forth from Mount Sinai, that grows oil, and (it is a) relish for the eaters.” (23:20)

“In the earth there are diverse regions side by side and gardens of grapes and cultivated fields, and date-palms sharing one root and others with individual roots, all watered with the same water. And We make some things better to eat than others. There are Signs in that for people who use their intellect.” (13:4)

In essence for the lack of better explanation fruits as mentioned here refer to the plural form of the fruits listed in the book. Twisting it further falls within the realm of apologists.

http://hadithqudsi.sacredhadith.com/hadith-qudsi-37/

Jannah(Paradise) is so huge and so vast that describing every single detail in it defeats the purpose and surprise factor. Of course Allah would only mention Arab fruits in the Qur'an because these are some of the fruits of Jannah that they can relate too. (What's the point of divine scripture/revelation when nobody understands what it is talking about)

Rifat
August 10, 2016, 09:11 AM
This is the story of Imam Abu Hanifa and the Atheist in case people missed it:

Long ago in the city of Baghdad, there was a Muslim empire. On one side of the River Tigris were the royal palaces and on the other side was the city. The Muslims were gathered in the Royal Palace when an athiest approached them. He said to them, ‘I don’t believe in God, there cannot be a God, you cannot hear Him or see Him, you’re wasting your time! Bring me your best debator and I will debate this issue with him.’

The best debator at the time was Imam Abu Hanifah Rahimullah. A messenger from amongst the Muslims was sent over the River Tigris to the city, where Abu Hanifah Rahimullah was, in order to tell him about the athiest who was awaiting him. On crossing the River Tigris, the messenger conveyed the message to Abu Hanifah Rahimullah saying, ‘Oh Abu Hanifah, an athiest is waiting for you, to debate you, please come!’ Abu Hanifah Rahimullah told the messeneger that he would be on his way.

The messenger went over the River Tigris once again and to the Royal Palaces, where everyone including the athiest awaited the arrival of Abu Hanifah Rahimullah. It was sunset at the time and one hour had passed, but Abu Hanifah Rahimullah still hadn’t arrived. Another hour had passed, but still there was no sign of him. The Muslims started to become tense and worried about his late arrival. They did not want the athiest to think that they were too scared to debate him, yet they did not want to take up the challenge themselves as Abu Hanifah Rahimullah was the best of Debators from amongst the Muslims. Another hour passed, and suddenly the athiest started laughing and said, ‘ Your best debator is too scared! He knows he’s wrong, he is too frightened to come and debate with me. I gurantee he will not turn up today.’

The Muslims increased in apprehension and eventually it had passed midnight, and the athiest had a smile on his face. The clock ticked on, and finally Abu Hanifah Rahimullah had arrived. The Muslims inquired about his lateness and remarked, ‘Oh Abu Hanifah, a messenger sent for you hours ago, and you arrive now, explain your lateness to us.’

Abu Hanifah Rahimullah apologises for his lateness and begins to explain, while the atheist listens to his story.

‘Once the messenger delivered the message to me, I began to make my way to the River Tigris, and on reaching the river bank I realised there was no boat, in order to cross the river. It was getting dark, and I looked around, there was no boat anywhere nor was there a navigator or a sailor in order for me to cross the river to get to the Royal Palaces. I continued to look around for a boat, as I did not want the athiest to think I was running away and did not want to debate with him.

I was standing on the river bank looking for a navigator or a boat when something caught my attention in the middle of the river. I looked forward, and to my amazement I saw planks of wood rising to the surface from the sea bed. I was shocked, amazed, I couldn’t believe what I saw seeing. Ready made planks of wood were rising up to the surface and joining together. They were all the same width and length, I was astounded at what I saw.

I continued to look into the middle of the river, and then I saw nails coming up from the sea floor. They positioned themselves onto the boat and held the planks together, without them being banged. I stood in amazement and thought to myself, ‘Oh Allah, how can this happen, planks of wood rising to the surface by itself, and then nails positioning themselves onto the boat without being banged?’ I could not undertsand what was happening before my eyes.’

The athiest meanwhile was listening with a smile on his face. Abu Hanifah Rahimullah continued, ‘I was still standing on the river bank watching these planks of wood join together with nails. I could see water seeping through the gaps in the wood, and suddenly I saw a sealant appear from the river and it began sealing the gaps without someone having poured it, again I thought, ‘Ya Allah, how is this possible, how can sealant appear and seal the gaps without someone having poured it, and nails appear without someone having banged them.’ I looked closer and I could see a boat forming before my eyes, I stood in amazement and was filled with shock. All of a sudden a sail appeared and I thought to myself, ‘How is this happening, a boat has appeared before my eyes by itself, planks of wood, nails, sealant and now a sail, but how can I use this boat in order to cross the river to the Royal Palaces?’ I stood staring in wonderment and suddenly the boat began to move. It came towards me against the current. It stood floating beside me while I was on the river bank, as if telling me to embark onto it. I went on the boat and yet again it began to move. There was no navigator or sailor on the boat, and the boat began to travel towards the direction of the royal palaces, without anyone having programmed it as to where to go. I could not understand what was happening, and how this boat had formed and was taking me to my destination against the flow of water. The boat eventually reached the other side of the River Tigris and I disembarked. I turned around and the boat had disappeared, and that is why I am late.’

At this moment, the athiest brust out laughing and remarked, ‘Oh Abu Hanifah, I heard that you were the best debator from amongst the Muslims, I heard that you were the wisest, the most knowledgable from amongst your people. From seeing you today, I can say that you show none of these qualities. You speak of a boat appearing from nowhere, without someone having built it. Nails positioning themselves without someone having banged them, sealant being poured without someone having poured it, and the boat taking you to your destination without a navigator against the tide, your taking childish, your talking rediculous, I swear I do not belive a word of it!’

Abu Hanifah Rahimullah turned to the athiest and replied, ‘You don’t believe a word of it? You dont believe that nails can appear by themselves? You dont believe sealant can be poured by itself? You dont believe that a boat can move without a navigator, hence you don’t believe that a boat can appear without a boat maker?’

The athiest remarked defiantly, ‘Yes I dont believe a word of it!’

Abu Hanifah Rahimullah replied, ‘If you cannot believe that a boat came into being without a boat maker, than this is only a boat, how can you believe that the whole world, the universe, the stars, the oceans, and the planets came into being without a creator?

The athiest astonished at his reply got up and fled.

Transcribed from a lecture delivered by Shaykh Ahmad Ali.


http://haqislam.org/imam-abu-hanifah-and-the-atheist/

Sylheti_Beta
August 10, 2016, 09:15 AM
*)

We do not have the answers to everything, and we probably never will since the Collective Human understanding has its limits and bounds.

Precisely, its better to say humans don't know or don't have the answer, instead of substituting the humans don't know or don't have the answer with God. :applause:

Sylheti_Beta
August 10, 2016, 09:19 AM
http://hadithqudsi.sacredhadith.com/hadith-qudsi-37/
Of course Allah would only mention Arab fruits in the Qur'an because these are some of the fruits of Jannah that they can relate too.
And the book is for the whole of humanity isn't it brother ? That's what I have studied since childhood. Why only Arab fruits ? is a question that wont go away easily with assertions. Amader Bangladesher Aam ki dosh korlo, amra Bangladesher Momin ra ki dosh korlam ??


(What's the point of divine scripture/revelation when nobody understands what it is talking about)
Exactly, so a global message delivered to an Arab centric audience and then translated. The translations are then seen as imperfect and problematic. Whats the point ?

Sylheti_Beta
August 10, 2016, 09:29 AM
*) Everything has a creator, a manufacturer, nothing ever happens due to "random occurrence".

Okay so you agree that everything has a creator.
But this creator has no creator. Therefore the creation of the creator happened sans a creator (as a random occurrence ???).
Works both ways :lol:

You just illustrated the fallacy I had shared. The premise is destroyed by the conclusion.
This same aspect is narrated in the story that you pasted and falls under the ambit of this fallacy.

Sylheti_Beta
August 10, 2016, 09:39 AM
Appealing to pity.
Why are you so intent on destroying something that makes so many poor, sick and miserable people happy ?

Are you implying that rich people don't need Islam,or that Happy, Healthy, Wealthy and successful people do not follow any religion? Mother Theresa was wealthy, happy and healthy but she was a devout catholic

Again its not me who says this. Its the religious who adopt this stance E-) and ask this question.
Akin to your question by which you try to accuse me of wrongdoing by misrepresenting what religious people say as something I said :lol:. Trying for the Moral High Ground is a common tactic.

Rifat
August 10, 2016, 09:42 AM
Okay so you agree that everything has a creator.
But this creator has no creator. Therefore the creation of the creator happened sans a creator (as a random occurrence ???).
Works both ways :lol:

You just illustrated the fallacy I had shared. The premise is destroyed by the conclusion.
This same aspect is narrated in the story that you pasted and falls under the ambit of this fallacy.

When we say The creator has a creator then we get into "infinite regression" as it implies "we created each other" which is not true. The creator is the uncaused cause, He existed..there is none like him

Sylheti_Beta
August 10, 2016, 09:45 AM
When we say The creator has a creator then we get into "infinite regression" as it implies "we created each other" which is not true. The creator is the uncaused cause, He existed..there is none like him
So shall we then say not everything has a creator, in order to avoid this "infinite regression" quandary ?

Rifat
August 10, 2016, 09:54 AM
So shall we then say not everything has a creator, in order to avoid this "infinite regression" quandary ?

Everything when i type it means every created thing this excludes the creator. Every "thing" we can quantify, measure, observe even things we can't quantify and measure and observe would also fall under the creation of Allah in Islam (angels + the other 6 heavens + The throne of Allah)...

dolcevita
August 10, 2016, 12:08 PM
This is the story of Imam Abu Hanifa and the Atheist in case people missed it:




http://haqislam.org/imam-abu-hanifah-and-the-atheist/

Mr Rifat, I agree with your story, there is a creator. But that does not solve the main issue : why this creator must be Allah and not other gods (there are thousands of religions) ?

Religions were created to give an answer to the "absurdity" of life (finiteness : we all know we are mortal), it gives people a goal in their life, a meaning. They offer what human desired : "absolute".

If there was only a single religion people would follow it without asking question, but religions loss their "absolute" nature when people could see that there were and are thousands of religions, that his religion is only one among them.

Globalization is probably the best thing to have happened for the mankind because it will help people to see that what they are thinking as "absolute" is not.

But it will not be done peacefully because it will kill two thing that allow the mass to be "happy" as Marx ironically said in his essay CAPITAL "in order to be happy the mass must be ignorant and not think about their condition"

Sylheti_Beta
August 10, 2016, 01:40 PM
Okay, back from lunch and having lost a lunch bet with an Indian friend that India would not get to 300 :facepalm: these Windies bowlers cost me a fortune.

Everything when i type it means every created thing this excludes the creator. Every "thing" we can quantify, measure, observe even things we can't quantify and measure and observe would also fall under the creation of Allah in Islam (angels + the other 6 heavens + The throne of Allah)...

This is just a circular argument and there are too many glitches in it.

This a false analogy because it assumes that because two objects share one common quality, they must have another quality in common.

A boat or any human creation is complex-This can be backed up with demonstrable evidence
These creations have a creator-This can be backed up with demonstrable evidence
The universe is also complex-This can be backed up with demonstrable evidence
Therefore the universe has a creator-This has no tangible evidence and is just an extraordinary claim. It just pleads and prays to scrape through on the strength of the previous three.


This argument is not proof, it is just an analogy. It is contradictory, misses many important features, does not aid us in knowing who the creator is, and most important does not stand alone as evidence of god, but must rely on external evidence.

But let's think about this for a moment. If you look at a man made objectand think to yourself, "Oh, this must be designed," what are you comparing it to; in order to make that judgment? Would you compare it to the ground, the trees, the grass, the animals, or the sky perhaps? If the man made object looks designed compared to its surroundings, the only logical conclusion we could draw is that its surroundings are not designed. If we were unable to differentiate the man made object from its natural surroundings, then we would deem it to be a natural object no different from a rock or a tree.

If we say that life is designed, again, with what are we making the comparison? All that is non-life? Great, but then we would still have to say that all non-life is not designed. But suppose we say that the entire universe is designed. Well, we don't yet know of another universe or habitable to compare ours to, that's exactly the problem. We only have experience with one universe, and unless we have the opportunity to examine other universes (if they exist, of course), we cannot say with any degree of certainty that our universe is designed, nor do we have any reason to believe it is in the first place. Till then humanity doesn't know is a much more forthright approach than saying God did it.

When searching for the truth, we do ourselves no favors by conjuring strange excuses on behalf of our beliefs in order to reconcile them with reality. What we should strive for is to arrive at our beliefs in an honest way -- a way that is mindful of the facts and adapts with change, and not one that bends to our wishes.

Sylheti_Beta
August 10, 2016, 01:46 PM
Another interesting quandary to think about.
God is omnipotent(all powerful), can God make a heavy object that God cannot lift ?

Tigers_eye
August 10, 2016, 03:50 PM
Precisely, its better to say humans don't know or don't have the answer, instead of substituting the humans don't know or don't have the answer with God. :applause:Is this your statement or someone else's statement?

Human do know God as much as God has revealed Himself. Sura 112.

Tigers_eye
August 10, 2016, 03:59 PM
And the book is for the whole of humanity isn't it brother ? That's what I have studied since childhood. Why only Arab fruits ? is a question that wont go away easily with assertions. Amader Bangladesher Aam ki dosh korlo, amra Bangladesher Momin ra ki dosh korlam ??


Exactly, so a global message delivered to an Arab centric audience and then translated. The translations are then seen as imperfect and problematic. Whats the point ?
We are going around circles. Back all the way to the Prophet's time where the questions were why the prophet was from the Arabs and not from the Jews. Why the Quran was an Arabic Quran. Now your questions are a little twisted as why Arab fruits are mentioned and not Bangladeshi fruits like "Kathal". Funny isn't it? However, the answer is given in the Quran as to why this is an Arabic Quran and why God chose an Arab to be His messenger. You are well versed of that and I know. It is the same reasoning why desert fruits are mentioned and not "Kathal, or Aam, or Jaam" didn't make it to the Holy book. Plus if you are wise enough then instead of the names you would focus on the message itself. Same water feeding different plants which bear different fruits. Is any being other than Supreme Being can claim they/he/she are capable of doing so?

mufi_02
August 10, 2016, 08:06 PM
But TE bhai, cricket is not mentioned. Bangla is not mentioned. BC isn't mentioned. So ekhon amra Ki korbo? Why why why?? So we don't exist? My posts in BC don't exist?? Then where am I?

My philosophy my Karl Marx my Dostoevsky says they must exist..but no mention in religion.

Ki korbo ekhon TE bhai?

Sylheti_Beta
August 11, 2016, 04:18 AM
Human do know God as much as God has revealed Himself. Sura 112.

Mizan bhai, this is also circular, with the key being as much as god has revealed.
How much do we know god; as much as he has revealed himself. How much has revealed himself; as much as we know him.
The pious will say yes,the doubters will say maybe, the skeptic will say not really. The search for the supreme being will continue.

To be realistic sans all the rhetoric, this revealing is not quantifiable other than by assertions and other circular references and analogies which fall apart on closer inspection.

Let analyze this creation argument again since that seems to be a favorite stick used quite liberally. I too have used it quite a lot for Dawah:


There exists a wooden boat (B1) known to have been created by a Carpenter (C1)
The construction of B1 consisted of certain methods (M1) known to be associated with C1.
If a wooden boat (B2) is constructed according to M1, it’s assumed B2 was created by C1.
Since B2 was constructed according to M1. B2 was created by C1.

The flaw in this argument lies in Premise 3. Premise 3 fails to account for any alternative hypotheses, such as the existence of another Carpenter (C2, C3, or C to the power n) who also utilizes M1. Since there is no observable/quantifiable phenomenon which confirms this premise it’s just an extraordinary claim.

Changing Premise 3 to the weaker “If a wooden boat (B2) is constructed according to M1, then B2 was probably created by C1” doesn’t resolve this issue and just adds probability in place of certainty.

If however we arrive at the conclusion that it’s possible the wooden boat was created by either C1 or C2, we now need to compare C1 and C2 (themselves) to see who actually created the boat.

Sylheti_Beta
August 11, 2016, 04:52 AM
Is any being other than Supreme Being can claim they/he/she are capable of doing so?
Yes as people of other faiths will attest.

But will we accept their version ?
No, because in a majority of cases it will violate the fundamental concept of Tawhid.
Do they accept our version ?
No, because they have a different set of beliefs.

As noble and nice it may seem to equate all world religions as similar.
The fact of the matter is that there may be some similarities which have to be cherry picked, the differences are stark.

You are right I have read the reasons provided on the nation, language and messenger of choice. I will always be a student of religion(s).

In summary its said:
Since a divine book cannot be sent to all nations in their own languages at the same time and since prophets cannot emerge from all nations at the same time, it is mentally necessary for a language and nation to be chosen.

Questions that comes to mind immediately,considering God is omnipotent(all powerful).

Can anything prevent God from sending the divine book to all nations or messengers to all nations ?
Is God constrained by geography or languages ?
These constraints listed are humanly impossible to surpass, but not for a God

Anik SH
August 11, 2016, 07:29 AM
But TE bhai, cricket is not mentioned. Bangla is not mentioned. BC isn't mentioned. So ekhon amra Ki korbo? Why why why?? So we don't exist? My posts in BC don't exist?? Then where am I?

My philosophy my Karl Marx my Dostoevsky says they must exist..but no mention in religion.

Ki korbo ekhon TE bhai?

Kiser sathe kee panta vaat e ghee

Tigers_eye
August 11, 2016, 08:09 AM
But TE bhai, cricket is not mentioned. Bangla is not mentioned. BC isn't mentioned. So ekhon amra Ki korbo? Why why why?? So we don't exist? My posts in BC don't exist?? Then where am I?

My philosophy my Karl Marx my Dostoevsky says they must exist..but no mention in religion.

Ki korbo ekhon TE bhai?
Dearest Mufi :mad: ,
You had one simple task, just one, and you failed?????

You don't know what to do? Instead of khajuira pachal why don't finish up the report (Florida trip with pictures). Ar ko to din amader opekkha koraba? Amra kanggal "onney'er" (bhat) dikey cheye asi. At least make the BC editors work a little for a front page article.

Tigers_eye
August 11, 2016, 09:17 AM
Mizan bhai, this is also circular, with the key being as much as god has revealed.
How much do we know god; as much as he has revealed himself. How much has revealed himself; as much as we know him.This is not circular. it is a one line sentence.
"How much has God (sic) revealed Himself"
The answer is, "We do not know. That answer lies with Himself. I myself dare not to speculate something that I do not know."

Let analyze this creation argument again since that seems to be a favorite stick used quite liberally. I too have used it quite a lot for Dawah:....
You and I agree that the Holy books are guidance from the Creator and Messengers are chosen by the Creator, right? If we agree upon this then you read the following; if not, I have no argument with you. Thank you and have a great day. To me belongs my beliefs and to you belongs yours.

So if we say C1, C2, ... Cn may have the M1 knowledge to build the wooden boats..... (meaning there are multiple creators - Astagfirullah).

...then do you think all the Cns' had a round table meeting in choosing the words in the Holy books (to guide the Mankind), chose the messengers, which fruits to name in the Holy Books, what part of the heaven or hell would be discussed in the Holy Books, which rules we were to follow, chose the stars where it would rotate for how long, which species would breathe air and which would not need air, How hot a star be, how fast the sun-earth-moon would travel, how much water earth would have, where would the wind flow, how would the water current flow, warm and cold How big the universe would be and how small a single cell living organism would operate, the electrons - moving around the nucleus etc. everything in the universe that follows its instruction should have been discussed in that round table meeting and AGREED UPON first before the creation so that there is no issues after it is done. With two or more equal powers, agreement on anything is a far cry. Some of them must compromise and agree with others. And if they do so, then they are no longer equal to the one who made the original decisions. With Cn, infinite creator theory all agreeing upon on all issues are simply put "Absurd".

Gaayer jorey tho ar korko kora jai na.

So all Cn's are actually ONE who makes the decision on His own and don't have to answer to anyone. He is the Supreme being. He is the Creator and there is no fault in His creation. To Him belongs the whole knowledge and with His infinite wisdom He shares them with whom ever He wishes.

Sura Mulk: 67:3-4.
<SMALL class=times-new data-reactid=".256e4g8feo.2.2.0.1.2:$67-3-ayah.1.1:$0.1.0">[And] who created seven heavens in layers. You do not see in the creation of the Most Merciful any inconsistency. So return [your] vision [to the sky]; do you see any breaks?</SMALL>

<SMALL class=times-new data-reactid=".256e4g8feo.2.2.0.1.2:$67-3-ayah.1.1:$0.1.0"><SMALL class=times-new data-reactid=".256e4g8feo.2.2.0.1.2:$67-4-ayah.1.1:$0.1.0">Then return [your] vision twice again. [Your] vision will return to you humbled while it is fatigued.</SMALL>
</SMALL>

Sylheti_Beta
August 11, 2016, 09:36 AM
The answer is, "We do not know. That answer lies with Himself. I myself dare not to speculate something that I do not know."
Yes that's the we do not know which is more forthright. As far as further research goes, you may not choose to proceed further, others may.


So if we say C1, C2, ... Cn may have the M1 knowledge to build the wooden boats..... (meaning there are multiple creators - Astagfirullah).
Gaayer jorey tho ar korko kora jai na.
Exactly this is the problem, we like to use this worldly analogy to forcefully prove a creator.
The carpenter analogy in a human context will never hold good. This worldly analogy falls apart and sounds blasphemous as it did to you. Do you see the problem ?

So, why use something worldly to defend something which is not quantifiable ?
ইহলোকের Example বা analogy দিয়ে পরলোকের ব্যাখ্যা করা যায় না।
এইখানেই, আমরা এখনো জানি না বলা তা বরঞ্চ শতপ্রবৃত্ত।

Tigers_eye
August 11, 2016, 09:51 AM
Is any being other than Supreme Being can claim they/he/she are capable of doing so? Yes as people of other faiths will attest.

But will we accept their version ?

Do they accept our version ? Then that other being is the same Supreme being on mine. This has no conflict with Tawhid. We are naming the supreme being differently. May be God, Brohmma or any other. The attributes are the same. I do not have to accept their version of belief nor do they have to accept mine. There is no compulsion in my belief. At the end of the day, our deeds would be put forth, and He would decide who among us were right when we conflicted.


In summary its said:
Since a divine book cannot be sent to all nations in their own languages at the same time and since prophets cannot emerge from all nations at the same time, it is mentally necessary for a language and nation to be chosen.

Questions that comes to mind immediately,considering God is omnipotent(all powerful).


Can anything prevent God from sending the divine book to all nations or messengers to all nations ?
Is God constrained by geography or languages ?
These constraints listed are humanly impossible to surpass, but not for a God

Correct on the account of not impossible for God. The first two questions answers are in the book. One nation wouldn't have solved the difference of opinion. He clearly mentions if He had wanted he could have made all of us one nation. It is His wisdom that He didn't do that.

Sura 11:118

And if your Lord had (so) decided, He would indeed have made mankind one nation; and (i.e., but) they do not cease differing (among themselves).

As for Geography and Language - Sura 14:4

And We never sent a messenger save with the language of his folk, that he might make (the message) clear for them. Then Allah sendeth whom He will astray, and guideth whom He will. He is the Mighty, the Wise.

Sylheti_Beta
August 11, 2016, 01:01 PM
Then that other being is the same Supreme being on mine. This has no conflict with Tawhid. We are naming the supreme being differently. May be God, Brohmma or any other. The attributes are the same. I do not have to accept their version of belief nor do they have to accept mine. There is no compulsion in my belief. At the end of the day, our deeds would be put forth, and He would decide who among us were right when we conflicted.
Partially correct Mizan bhai, the problem like I said earlier stems from over generalization of faith systems across the world. The intentions may be noble but the differences are stark.
Lets take the example of Hinduism as you have also cited in your response. We only know of a certain flavor of Hinduism or Sanatan Dharma(real name). I spent time reading about it in the past. There are many schools of thought in Hinduism and no one school can claim supremacy or claim that they have a majority of adherents. This is in contrast to Ahle Sunnat Wal Jama’at in Islam which has the majority of adherents. Hinduism does not and cannot enforce uniformity due to the sheer scale of difference and also because a majority of the populace is independent of the clergy.

Anyway back to the point, in my readings I came across schools who practice hard polytheism and those who practice soft polytheism. The hard polytheists practice a system under which different deities of the pantheon are accorded different powers, they are also separate entities and do not roll up into one. Some are more powerful than others and all are to be worshipped. In ancient times there were battles and conflicts between rival thought schools or akhadas. Going back to 1640 there is a confirmed record of such a battle in Haridwar (Kumbh Mela) that I recall reading about. The schools persist to this day, I double checked with my Indian friend.

What you are referring to are the soft polytheists. So when it comes to the Hard polytheists it would definitely conflict with Tawhid. And then this is just Hinduism. There may be a multitude of polytheistic systems which may not sit well with the one god concept, that we don't know about.

Christianity which has many likenesses has a major sticking point which we cant accept in Islam. That Jesus is the son of God.

Sylheti_Beta
August 12, 2016, 04:35 AM
Correct on the account of not impossible for God. The first two questions answers are in the book. One nation wouldn't have solved the difference of opinion. He clearly mentions if He had wanted he could have made all of us one nation. It is His wisdom that He didn't do that.
So, considering the conflicts and devastation across the centuries, how has this non-uniformity fared thus far ? Since the religious view is that we are created and administered by divinity.

Are we responsible for our actions ?
Are we responsible for how we are created ?
How much of our actions are ours and how much is governed ?

The common response is that we have free will, lets examine this closely.
If we have free will to do actions(A1,A2,A3...A to the power n), does God know which action we will perform since God is all knowing ? If God does know what we will do already, this free will is not free; it God's will. So God willed us to do what we are doing, are we responsible for those actions?

And its not possible that God does not know which action we will perform because God is omniscient.
Similarly with the test principle, a test is taken when the results are not known.
An omniscient God knows all the test results, so is it really a test since its all pre-decided ?

প্রশ্নটি শব ধর্মের কাছে একই ভাবে প্রজোয্য ।

bujhee kom
August 13, 2016, 06:16 PM
Ei thread-tikey apnara kintoo besh Jomieye rekhechen, Accha bhaiyas...

I have been asking this question to myself for a long long time...A very serious question by the way!

What do you think of urinating while standing up (I mean males only)? I mean how do you feel about using an urinal, let's say a very sophisticated eco friendly - low water usage one? How do you wash yourself after you relieve yourself? Do I go to the sink in a public toilet unzipped and use the sink in front of a few other guys. What if they get the 'wrong' signal, I mean you know what I mean? What if you decide not to wsash after urination at a urinal, for instance, say you have to run and catch your last flight? Is that Jaez Najaez?

Please discuss...thank you in advance>

Zeeshan
August 13, 2016, 06:55 PM
Ei thread-tikey apnara kintoo besh Jomieye rekhechen, Accha bhaiyas...

I have been asking this question to myself for a long long time...A very serious question by the way!

What do you think of urinating while standing up (I mean males only)? I mean how do you feel about using an urinal, let's say a very sophisticated eco friendly - low water usage one? How do you wash yourself after you relieve yourself? Do I go to the sink in a public toilet unzipped and use the sink in front of a few other guys. What if they get the 'wrong' signal, I mean you know what I mean? What if you decide not to wsash after urination at a urinal, for instance, say you have to run and catch your last flight? Is that Jaez Najaez?

Please discuss...thank you in advance>

This! :up::up::up::up:

Fazal
August 14, 2016, 07:14 AM
Ei thread-tikey apnara kintoo besh Jomieye rekhechen, Accha bhaiyas...

I have been asking this question to myself for a long long time...A very serious question by the way!

What do you think of urinating while standing up (I mean males only)? I mean how do you feel about using an urinal, let's say a very sophisticated eco friendly - low water usage one? How do you wash yourself after you relieve yourself? Do I go to the sink in a public toilet unzipped and use the sink in front of a few other guys. What if they get the 'wrong' signal, I mean you know what I mean? What if you decide not to wsash after urination at a urinal, for instance, say you have to run and catch your last flight? Is that Jaez Najaez?

Please discuss...thank you in advance>

Every question has an answer whether you like it or not...

لا تشرب الماء قبل الخروج

la tashrib alma' qabl alkhuruj


In case the above advice doesn't work out for you (for whatever reason), you can try the following:


و طارئ لديك الرغبة في التبول ، وعقد قضيبك بيدك اليسرى لفترة طويلة بما فيه الكفاية بحيث لا بالتنقيط البول في الملابس الخاصة بك .
w tari ladayk alrraghbat fi altbawl , waeaqad qadibuk biadik alyusraa lifatrat tawilat bma fyh alkfayt bihayth la bialttanqit albawl fi almalabis alkhassat bik

bujhee kom
August 14, 2016, 02:03 PM
^^Mama, Are you asking me to do Kulub? Do you mean walk 30 steps north and then dhila Kulub?
Khuley bolun...foreign language, bujhtey osubidha hocchey!

Fazal
August 14, 2016, 09:16 PM
^^Mama, Are you asking me to do Kulub? Do you mean walk 30 steps north and then dhila Kulub?
Khuley bolun...foreign language, bujhtey osubidha hocchey!

لا تشرب الماء قبل الخروج (la tashrib alma' qabl alkhuruj)

"Do not drink water before you go out"



و طارئ لديك الرغبة في التبول ، وعقد قضيبك بيدك اليسرى لفترة طويلة بما فيه الكفاية بحيث لا بالتنقيط البول في الملابس الخاصة بك .
(w tari ladayk alrraghbat fi altbawl , waeaqad qadibuk biadik alyusraa lifatrat tawilat bma fyh alkfayt bihayth la bialttanqit albawl fi almalabis alkhassat bik)

"In case of emergency when you have to urinate , afterward hold your penis with your left hand tight and long enough period so as not to drip urine in your clothes"




In top of that you can also follow the following instruction (where appropriate):

بحث عن المرحاض المرأة حيث قد لا تحتاج إلى التبول في حين واقفا
(bahath ean almirhad almar'at hayth qad la tahtaj 'iilaa alttabuwwul fi hyn waqifaan)

....

....


....


"Look for women's toilet where you may not need to urinate while standing up "

Jadukor
August 14, 2016, 10:49 PM
Look for womens toilet lol... good way to get arrested bk da

Rifat
August 15, 2016, 08:20 AM
If Google Translate didn't exist I would have honestly thought that Fazal actually spoke arabic :p

Sylheti_Beta
August 15, 2016, 02:30 PM
Look for womems toilet lol... good way to get arrested bk da
:lol: আমি যদি আমার beard and thick set appearance নিয়ে চেষ্টা করি তাইলে খবর আসে আমার।

হেডলাইন্স আসবে এক বাংলাদেশী মূলের মার্কিন নাগরিক আটক, শোনা যায় যে এই washroom সন্ত্রাসকারী নাকি ট্রেনিং প্রাপ্ত। ...:floor:

Jadukor
August 16, 2016, 12:07 AM
Interesting discussions on creation, god and religion. IMO Religion's weakest point is that it cannot prove the existence of god and somehow this is also its strength through what we call faith. Faith means believing without questioning and it doesnt matter how absurd, outdated or illogical religion seems you simply have to follow it.

In the modern age we are taught in schools to question everything but religion does not allow that and this creates conflicts as it did here in this forum too. There is no democracy in religion. You do as you are told or face fires of hell.

Moderately religious folks live in denial. They voluntarily choose not to delve deep and find things that they cannot reconcile with. They are happy living their lives following the basic commands peacefully and i am really happy that the majority of the 1.6 billion thinks this way. Extremists are the serious students of religion. They take everything word for word and their commitment is so strong that they are willing to mass murder and die for it.

Fazal
August 16, 2016, 09:37 AM
Moderately religious folks live in denial. They voluntarily choose not to delve deep and find things that they cannot reconcile with. They are happy living their lives following the basic commands peacefully and i am really happy that the majority of the 1.6 billion thinks this way.

كنت شاكيد الشجرة الصحيحة

kunt shakid alshshajarat alssahiha

Jadukor
August 16, 2016, 09:56 AM
Either bangla or english in accordance with forum rules please.

Fazal
August 16, 2016, 10:02 AM
Either bangla or english in accordance with forum rules please.


كنت شاكيد الشجرة الصحيحة (kunt shakid alshshajarat alssahiha)

"You shaked the right tree"

------


الآن سعيدة؟
"Now Happy?"

roman
August 17, 2016, 02:28 PM
I have a question...


Why is Islam restrictive about other religious practice in mosque compared to the other religious house of worship? I have read about many incidence where Muslims were allowed to use church for Eid prayers, but have never seen/heard/read anything about a mosque offered to christian community for the christmas prayer.

mufi_02
August 17, 2016, 03:17 PM
^^ it has less to do with religion and more to do with accommodation. In the western countries, there is an abundance of church and most of them are barely used. But there are very mosques or musallahs that can accommodate people during jumah or eid prayer. That's why most churches leases out spaces in Friday for few hours (note: some church are kind enough to do it for free to show good faith). On the other hand, during Christmas the churches are well equipped to accommodate their congregants and if need be can arrange public halls. There are very few mosques which are big and modern enough which can do that.

But there has been case of mosques being offered for other services --

The Islamic center, which hosts its main prayers on Fridays, invited the Unitarian congregation to use its worship space for Sunday services. The congregation met at the mosque for about a month before settling into its new space in June.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/why-a-mosque-invited-a-church-to-use-its-space-for-worship_us_57630310e4b05e4be86141fa

roman
August 17, 2016, 11:18 PM
Thank you for the link.

My question was actually for muslim countries where there are plenty of mosques but not enough churches and temples. Can they not offer mosques to Hindus during Durga puja or to Christian communitu during Christmas? That would actually be an ideal way to show the world that Muslims do practice tolerance

Jadukor
August 17, 2016, 11:56 PM
It is difficult for an individual muslim or a few muslim communities to show muslims are tolerant. Growing up in the 80s, i had a hindu friend who used to hangout in my house all the time. He even secretly used to eat beef curry at my house. His identity was first and foremost a friend and a neighbor and not that he was a hindu. Dhaka in the 80s had none of this islamist crap.

My point is you cannot set out to prove you are tolerant, it needs to be evident in our actions in the world. Mosques not allowing durga puja is indicative of our level of tolerance. Religion doesnt treat women like second class citizens is another aspect we say but we are yet to see in our actions. Perhaps forget the lack of 72 male companions, or four husbands at least freedom to dress however they like would be a good start.

mufi_02
August 18, 2016, 04:29 PM
Thank you for the link.

My question was actually for muslim countries where there are plenty of mosques but not enough churches and temples. Can they not offer mosques to Hindus during Durga puja or to Christian communitu during Christmas? That would actually be an ideal way to show the world that Muslims do practice tolerance

roman bhai, I think it has a lot do with immigration. In the past decades, it has been the muslim immigration to these western countries and thus the issue with accommodating worshippers. but on other places where there is no net positive migration, chances are muslims are welcome into other places. i.e in India I doubt any temple will be allowed to be used for namaz.

No masjid can really host durga puja or have statues inside. It goes against the monotheist purpose of the masjid. But there have been Christian or Jewish services (as shared above). I am not sure if you will be comfortable, let's say if they bring in statues inside the Jamaica masjid and offer services.

In the end, there are plenty of ways to show tolerance. It has to start from an individual. And respecting other faiths is the first step. I may not agree with their belief but at the same time we have been instructed to respect and not demean or say anything disrespectful about any of their deities/holy people.

roman
August 19, 2016, 09:47 AM
In the end, there are plenty of ways to show tolerance. It has to start from an individual. And respecting other faiths is the first step. I may not agree with their belief but at the same time we have been instructed to respect and not demean or say anything disrespectful about any of their deities/holy people.

Exactly Mufi:up::up::up:. That's the point. I will repeat. We Have been instructed to respect and not demean say anything disrespectful about any of their deities/holy people.

But in reality, we muslims suffer from religious supremacy.

Arey Ora to ihudi..tara obhishopto jati, o to hindu, idol worshipper. He is destined for Hell. Christian ra Kafer, Murtaad. We love to demean others. But we forgot the teaching of our Rasul. Very unfortunate.

Rifat
August 19, 2016, 10:03 AM
Islam Respects people's right to choose, regardless of the validity of that choice... for every action there are consequences, once people understand that they will eventually make the right choice.

Zeeshan
August 19, 2016, 06:52 PM
I once heard a hadis, pretty sure apocryphal but the message, the content is golden: It is said that Nabiji instructed Muslims to raise hand in salaam even when passing by a temple.

Most of the hadis that are beautiful are shrugged of by know-it-all scholars instead of fueling the beautiful side of message.

For instance, the part of Moymona Kutni who would lay thorns in Nabiji's path and one day when she didn't the Prophet went to see whats up and found her to be sick.

Isn't this beautiful story of compassion and kindness? Forget about the veracity, it's the beauty that counts.

Sylheti_Beta
August 24, 2016, 08:14 AM
Compassion and kindness may be present in religion, but is in no way monopolized by it. Compassion, kindness and love exist not because of religion but despite it.

ahnaf
August 27, 2016, 10:02 AM
Nouman Ali khan explains beautifully whats wrong with today's most of the imams and knowledgeable persons (session 38). I would recommend to watch this series of lecture from the beginning

https://www.bayyinah.org/#vi=179646177

brockley
August 27, 2016, 03:53 PM
Why do Taliban kill Hazidis'?

One World
August 28, 2016, 01:40 PM
Why do Taliban kill Hazidis'?

Lack of scientific education and deprived adaptation to modernity. BTW the question should involve ISIS not Taliban and Yazidis not Hazidis.

brockley
August 28, 2016, 06:03 PM
Ok Yazidis,apparently they on the run from the Taliban too.
Don't know what branch of Islam it is and why its controvercial enough to presecute a minority.

Zeeshan
August 28, 2016, 10:00 PM
Either bangla or english in accordance with forum rules please.

co po polsku jaduda?

meaning, why are you so great?

Fazal
August 31, 2016, 12:36 PM
أم كل المواضيع

Bangla; সকল লিপি মা

English: Mother of all threads

bujhee kom
September 3, 2016, 09:57 AM
Alaikum as Salaam bhais,

Accha apnara ekhaney onek Mufti, Maulana, Mehlavi achen - amakey Musolmani/sunnat/Khatna I mean Circumcision somporkey kichu awaj ditey paren?

I have a concern. You see bhais, I have a friend a newly convert, but no "musolmani" done yet, if you know what I mean. He is very very worried and not to mention very scared. My question is does he need to be circumcised, in order to be a full genuine muslim? The man is very scared bhias, he asks me and I can not answer him, amakey emon bhabey dhorey bosechey boro bipakey porey gechi hami.

So, if you have to do it as an adult, what is your advice? Any clinic will do, or do we have to go to a Hazaam or a Huzur? Anesthesia lagbey, so the Hazaam has to be certified. We don't want a case of a Kurbani ka Goru, half way kata and goru dilo dour out of the clinic. I have to chase the fool in open public on the street in this western world. Next thing I will be in Jail bhais.

Please discuss among yourselves and any help will be appreciated. Khub chintay achi bhais. This is a legit question bhais.

Thank you.

mufi_02
September 3, 2016, 04:05 PM
^bk bhai, it's not mandatory to do that..it's the Sunnah of the prophets and thus we do it..your friend is a Muslim just like anyone else with or without the procedure.

But if he wants to do it for health benefits, then that's another story..

Zeeshan
September 3, 2016, 04:56 PM
Before my muscleman ceremony, I used to think they use executioner style scimitar or talowar under black hooded mask. Now I know they don't. They are savvy with cigar cutters.

tonmoy.dhaka
September 3, 2016, 05:11 PM
BK bhai... you are the funniest guy in BC... kudos..

:D
You really made my day

Nasif
September 3, 2016, 07:52 PM
Alaikum as Salaam bhais,

Accha apnara ekhaney onek Mufti, Maulana, Mehlavi achen - amakey Musolmani/sunnat/Khatna I mean Circumcision somporkey kichu awaj ditey paren?

I have a concern. You see bhais, I have a friend a newly convert, but no "musolmani" done yet, if you know what I mean. He is very very worried and not to mention very scared. My question is does he need to be circumcised, in order to be a full genuine muslim? The man is very scared bhias, he asks me and I can not answer him, amakey emon bhabey dhorey bosechey boro bipakey porey gechi hami.

So, if you have to do it as an adult, what is your advice? Any clinic will do, or do we have to go to a Hazaam or a Huzur? Anesthesia lagbey, so the Hazaam has to be certified. We don't want a case of a Kurbani ka Goru, half way kata and goru dilo dour out of the clinic. I have to chase the fool in open public on the street in this western world. Next thing I will be in Jail bhais.

Please discuss among yourselves and any help will be appreciated. Khub chintay achi bhais. This is a legit question bhais.

Thank you.

Circumcision not needed. God has already perfected His creations :)

32:7 (http://quranix.org/32#7) The One who perfected everything He created and He began the creation of the human from clay.

One World
September 3, 2016, 10:26 PM
6:2, 15:26, 37:7 clay
21:30 water
16:4 a drop of sperm
96:2 clinging substance/blood clot

brockley
September 3, 2016, 10:46 PM
BTW guys what do you think about the Holy Spirit and the book of ACTS.

One World
September 4, 2016, 12:43 AM
“Love is always patient and kind. It is never jealous. Love is never boastful or conceited. It is never rude or selfish. It does not take offense and is not resentful. Love takes no pleasure in other people’s sins, but delights in the truth. It is always ready to excuse, to trust, to hope, and to endure whatever comes.”


― Anonymous, Holy Bible: New International Version

One World
September 4, 2016, 09:30 PM
I have a question...


Why is Islam restrictive about other religious practice in mosque compared to the other religious house of worship? I have read about many incidence where Muslims were allowed to use church for Eid prayers, but have never seen/heard/read anything about a mosque offered to christian community for the christmas prayer.

^^ it has less to do with religion and more to do with accommodation. In the western countries, there is an abundance of church and most of them are barely used. But there are very mosques or musallahs that can accommodate people during jumah or eid prayer. That's why most churches leases out spaces in Friday for few hours (note: some church are kind enough to do it for free to show good faith). On the other hand, during Christmas the churches are well equipped to accommodate their congregants and if need be can arrange public halls. There are very few mosques which are big and modern enough which can do that.

But there has been case of mosques being offered for other services --



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/why-a-mosque-invited-a-church-to-use-its-space-for-worship_us_57630310e4b05e4be86141fa

Thank you for the link.

My question was actually for muslim countries where there are plenty of mosques but not enough churches and temples. Can they not offer mosques to Hindus during Durga puja or to Christian communitu during Christmas? That would actually be an ideal way to show the world that Muslims do practice tolerance

It is difficult for an individual muslim or a few muslim communities to show muslims are tolerant. Growing up in the 80s, i had a hindu friend who used to hangout in my house all the time. He even secretly used to eat beef curry at my house. His identity was first and foremost a friend and a neighbor and not that he was a hindu. Dhaka in the 80s had none of this islamist crap.

My point is you cannot set out to prove you are tolerant, it needs to be evident in our actions in the world. Mosques not allowing durga puja is indicative of our level of tolerance. Religion doesnt treat women like second class citizens is another aspect we say but we are yet to see in our actions. Perhaps forget the lack of 72 male companions, or four husbands at least freedom to dress however they like would be a good start.

roman bhai, I think it has a lot do with immigration. In the past decades, it has been the muslim immigration to these western countries and thus the issue with accommodating worshippers. but on other places where there is no net positive migration, chances are muslims are welcome into other places. i.e in India I doubt any temple will be allowed to be used for namaz.

No masjid can really host durga puja or have statues inside. It goes against the monotheist purpose of the masjid. But there have been Christian or Jewish services (as shared above). I am not sure if you will be comfortable, let's say if they bring in statues inside the Jamaica masjid and offer services.

In the end, there are plenty of ways to show tolerance. It has to start from an individual. And respecting other faiths is the first step. I may not agree with their belief but at the same time we have been instructed to respect and not demean or say anything disrespectful about any of their deities/holy people.

Exactly Mufi:up::up::up:. That's the point. I will repeat. We Have been instructed to respect and not demean say anything disrespectful about any of their deities/holy people.

But in reality, we muslims suffer from religious supremacy.

Arey Ora to ihudi..tara obhishopto jati, o to hindu, idol worshipper. He is destined for Hell. Christian ra Kafer, Murtaad. We love to demean others. But we forgot the teaching of our Rasul. Very unfortunate.

Islam Respects people's right to choose, regardless of the validity of that choice... for every action there are consequences, once people understand that they will eventually make the right choice.

I just had to barge into this discussion. Please check these references,

5:51 and 9:16-17

A direct 'no no'.

One World
September 5, 2016, 02:22 PM
Surprisingly Eid is not mentioned in the holy book. The verses between 5:111 to 5:120 mention the word for an entirely different context.

The term ‘Eid‘ has only been used once in the entire Quran and possibly in the context
of the Eucharist which is the Christian ceremony which commemorates the Biblical
Last Supper of Prophet Jesus.(pbuh) According to the New Testament, the festival is
celebrated by Prophet Jesus’s (pbuh) followers as per his instructions to remember
him.

According to the Quran, Prophet Jesus (pbuh) in response to an initial request made
by his disciples (5:112), prayed to Almighty God that He send from heaven a table
spread (with food) as a festival (Eid). This festival would constitute a sign from God
from the ‘first to the last of them‘

https://wiki-islam.org/2012/10/27/eid-mentioned-in-the-quran/

One World
September 10, 2016, 10:21 PM
Happy Eid Al Adha to North American members.

Enjoy (http://www.islamicacademy.org/html/Articles/English/What_Can_We_Eat.htm)

ahnaf
October 19, 2016, 12:06 PM
Excellent discussion between a pastor and Imam Omar Suleiman. Later he answered some answers from non muslim audience

Out of Context
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLutdSTmJ7bAJQaNrfGlijtvLsDcERufni

al Furqaan
November 11, 2016, 01:16 AM
Precisely, :applause:

Apologists get their knickers in a twist trying to disassociate from this quandary.
Whenever something bad is done by religious people or theocratic/religious countries; otherwise well intention-ed folks as well as religious demagogues will keep parroting any/all of the following immediately:

1. Fundamentalists destroying places of worship of any other religion have nothing to do with real organized religion.
2. Fundamentalists killing children and women have nothing to do with real organized religion.
3. The forcible conversion of helpless people have nothing to do with real organized religion.
4. The genocide being perpetrated by fundamentalists "anywhere" has nothing to do with with real organized religion.
5. Country a, b, c’s political and social fallacies have nothing to do with real organized religion.
6. Bomb-blasts in places of worship; have nothing to do with real organized religion.
7. The unwillingness of theocracies to give actual weight-age to women's rights has nothing to do with real organized religion.
8. Sectarian violence nothing to do with real organized religion.
9. Having sex with slave girls in theocratic countries nothing to do with real organized religion.
10. Women oppression and inequality with men has nothing to do with real organized religion.
11. The decapitations of the inhabitants of entire villages by fundamentalists in Algeria nothing to do with real organized religion.
12. Acts of terror committed frequently around the world in the name of real organized religion have nothing to do with real organized religion.
13. My personal favorite, the book/teachings (of any given organized religion) is infallible, simple, perfect etc; but wait not everyone can understand the book/teachings.
14.Another fallacy used by organized religion a lot is the God of the Gaps argument. All fields of science have unanswered questions. Real Scientists typically view these as open research questions. Organized religion argues that if science can’t explain how something happened, then God must be the explanation. Such arguments are called “god-of-the-gaps” arguments.
In this regard science is more honest and says it doesn’t know and needs to find out. Organized religion speaks from self-righteous authority and chooses to assert that it knows the answer instead of sticking to the straight and narrow. That’s why Science and organized religion are divergent though organized religion likes to use Science as a crutch :facepalm:.
As I said previously in another post-


All of this is standard stuff you will get to hear with unfailing regularity. Organized religion is a quagmire of cognitive dissonance and denial.
Excuses like these will keep getting added; until one day it will come to such a pass that some random guy may end up saying real organized religion has nothing to do with real organized religion. :lol: That day is not far off.

This is less a religion problem and more of a argument problem.

For example, millions have been killed in the name of religion. Even though every religion teaches some variant of "thou shalt not kill". The otherwise rational atheist somehow confuses a religion for its followers. Islam cannot cross the street but a Muslim certainly can.

Ideology versus person.

Cricket is a sport...cricketer is a person. CricketERS score runs and take wickets...the sport itself doesn't actually do it.

Point out Stalin's crimes, and the average atheist argues there is no atheist god or scripture to influence behavior.

No, but there is a lack of guarantee that rational thought is moral thought.

All of the above applies to atheists just as much as believers.

brockley
November 11, 2016, 01:27 AM
I studied Russian history at UNI,learnt how Stalin starved and killed 4 million Ukranians,saw footage of it on documentaries.Awful but rivetting Stuff.
I guess an the atheist side you have MAo's cultural revolution in the 1960's.Many killed,tortured and locked up,the heart of their culture was destroyed.

Anik SH
November 11, 2016, 08:39 AM
First of all, Politics is not my cup of tea. So I didnt care much about the US election. But Bangladesh social media surely did..lol :lol:. And as a part of the fb social gathering I want to share my piece of cake here about the result of just finished US presidential race. Well, I hoped Hillary would win although I wasn't too exited about anything much as I stated before. But Trump did win, Americans decided upon Trump.

What i felt, Modi;s, Brexit and Trump's election are on similar grounds. People, all over the world are of similar nature. Behaviour differs only on circustances and situation of the time. 
American minorities now will feel how Bangladeshi minorities feel when majority voted for Bnp, despite Khaledas anti minority speech and Jamaat despite their history of anti minority campaigns..
Even now if a pure fair election take place in Bangladesh, We know who will win.. ;)
I have heard one of my once a 10 students batch coaching teacher saying, 'Jammat killed hindus in 1971, so it's alright or less 'sinful' work to do so' in front one of his HINDU student..(probably he forgot for a moment one student was not from a mainstream Bangladeshi community aka Muslim Bengali or he was just careless and naive)
So don't say Americans are stupid and backward conservative when radical nationalism is a thing in the world now. First it started in mid east when conservative parties started to win back the government, Now it is following up to Europe to America. It's majority's nature to defame the less numbered.

At the end, as Rifat vai stated, Here is to hoping Trump pre-election was just a running joke just to get votes and he is not really what he says and does the right things. And he will be at least not as bad as we thought.

#USElection #Trump #Hillary

tonmoy.dhaka
November 11, 2016, 12:42 PM
Well said Anik..

I wish Bengalis were more concerned about the crimes commited against the minorities (hindus) and Tribals recently in Bangladesh instead of US election.

Sylheti_Beta
November 17, 2016, 07:33 AM
I studied Russian history at UNI,learnt how Stalin starved and killed 4 million Ukranians,saw footage of it on documentaries.Awful but rivetting Stuff.
I guess an the atheist side you have MAo's cultural revolution in the 1960's.Many killed,tortured and locked up,the heart of their culture was destroyed.

Tyrants and despots like Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, Yahya Khan, et all have world record body counts. Let me use the oft used adage, the killings of millions by Mao and Stalin have nothing to do with atheism. :D atheism is a non-religion of peace. Works well with religion does it not.

But seriously, there's no ordained book or set of rules for Atheism which claims absolute authority or exclusivity as the one true path. Nor do its tenets specifically call for death and destruction of those who don't follow its teachings. There are no atheists calling for armed struggle to create an atheist world order. So trying to draw parallels between religious bigotry/fundamentalism and atheism is amusing at its best and obfuscatory at its worst.

Sylheti_Beta
November 17, 2016, 11:30 AM
This is less a religion problem and more of a argument problem.

For example, millions have been killed in the name of religion. Even though every religion teaches some variant of "thou shalt not kill". The otherwise rational atheist somehow confuses a religion for its followers. Islam cannot cross the street but a Muslim certainly can.

Ideology versus person.

Cricket is a sport...cricketer is a person. CricketERS score runs and take wickets...the sport itself doesn't actually do it.

Point out Stalin's crimes, and the average atheist argues there is no atheist god or scripture to influence behavior.

No, but there is a lack of guarantee that rational thought is moral thought.

All of the above applies to atheists just as much as believers.

Lets examine a few things here:


Is there's an ordained book or set of rules for Atheism which claims absolute authority or exclusivity as the one true path of Atheism?
Do the ordained tenets of Atheism (if there are any) specifically call for death and destruction of those who don't follow its teachings?
Are there atheists calling for armed struggle to create an atheist world order?


On the flip-side, religions may advocate thou shalt not kill in some form, but also advocate violence in alternate interpretations.

al Furqaan
November 20, 2016, 01:40 PM
Lets examine a few things here:


Is there's an ordained book or set of rules for Atheism which claims absolute authority or exclusivity as the one true path of Atheism?
Do the ordained tenets of Atheism (if there are any) specifically call for death and destruction of those who don't follow its teachings?
Are there atheists calling for armed struggle to create an atheist world order?


Religion could have the worst possible text out there but all that *proves* is religion is bad. Even that is not true since religion is man made, and hence its just people who are bad. Scripture is merely a medium reflective only of the people who.write and interpret it. You don't need a pie in the sky justification to kill someone, just ask a lifer in Sing Sing if you in doubt. Ego alone can pull triggers.

Again, cricketers take wickets, not cricket.

But even assuming that is true, it doesnt prove humanity would be any better in the absence of such texts or religions. All evidence indicates we would only fall further into the abyss.

You forget to add relgious fallacy # 12 to your list: arguing atheism isnt an idea because it has no texts.

By that argument Christianity isnt a religion because there is no universally accepted cannon and neither is Islam because it has no Scripture at all (in a literal sense, no pun intended).

Sylheti_Beta
November 21, 2016, 04:46 AM
Religion could have the worst possible text out there but all that *proves* is religion is bad. Even that is not true since religion is man made, and hence its just people who are bad. Scripture is merely a medium reflective only of the people who.write and interpret it. You don't need a pie in the sky justification to kill someone, just ask a lifer in Sing Sing if you in doubt. Ego alone can pull triggers.
Absolutely agree that religion is man made and ego alone can pull triggers. So to put faith in the mix and add things like god's will, fate; gunaah, fitnaah et all is just to muddy up the waters. An activity perfected down to an art by the Jehadi gangs in BD. All things being equal, good people will do good while bad people will do bad things, but for good people to turn bad requires religion. A pie in the sky justification helped justify the Charlie Hebdo killings, the killings of innocents in Dhaka, the killing of Avijit Roy. The fact that you and me think of this pie in the sky justification as facile and naive didn't matter one bit.

If scripture is that subjective, it shouldn't be touted as the objective be-all end-all for all of humanity.


Again, cricketers take wickets, not cricket.

Yes they do, and they play by the rules set for the game. Strictly in accordance with the law books of the game. No scope for improvisation or ambiguity. And where ambiguity creeps in the laws are changed.


But even assuming that is true, it doesn't prove humanity would be any better in the absence of such texts or religions. All evidence indicates we would only fall further into the abyss.
The premise is correct, the conclusion is non sequitur. What evidence do we have of the contrary? Religious wars, crusades, jihads (which are passed off as imperialism) have bloodied the pages of history so much nothing else can hold a candle to it. The religious right always tries hard to seek similar "moral equivalence" to try and shield and somehow justify the existence of religion and the violence therein, nothing new in it.


You forget to add relgious fallacy # 12 to your list: arguing atheism isnt an idea because it has no texts. Atheism is an idea, when did I claim its not. Its a negation of the super being fallacy. That and it doesn't advocate world domination or sanction hatred/ostracization/extermination of non adherents namely deists and theists.


By that argument Christianity isnt a religion because there is no universally accepted cannon and neither is Islam because it has no Scripture at all (in a literal sense, no pun intended). Inaccurate, the Bible and the Quran are accepted by the majority(if not all) of their religious adherents as the true word of God. Hindus and Buddhists have more than one set of books but they are accepted as collective divine guidance. A Malay friend for example studies Hinayana/Mahayana/Zen Buddhist books.

There are no parallels in atheistic thought schools because there's no Deity or Hujur or Guru who runs a shop dependent on dole from (politicos and/or fundamentalist religious thought schools). Atheism is a non prophet organisation.

Zeeshan
November 21, 2016, 01:23 PM
khawar tebiley dhormo politics na anlei hoy...ami ekebarei pokhopati na ei khawar tebil e dhormo niye torko bitorko korar

Zeeshan
November 21, 2016, 01:41 PM
But even assuming that is true, it doesnt prove humanity would be any better in the absence of such texts or religions. All evidence indicates we would only fall further into the abyss.


What evidence? I find it funny this whole disempowerment of mankind into feeble weak beings incapable of making right decisions utterly risible. And then again it grossly assumes that there IS a clear distinction between right or wrong. So that statement is rife with assumptions.

Granted there is a clear-cut ethical delineation, there are many non-believers who out of compassion gives food to homeless, donates to charity or even practices mundane kindness. It may not be your everyday garden variety prostrating or kneeling down imams or priests who believes in rigid system, but they do practice core values that makes humanity.

If anything the CONTRARY indicates we fall into this so-called fear-mongering "abyss" that only you know of. What abyss? Incest? Drugs? Child abuse? Child labor? Torture? Just because it moves your conscience doesn't mean it's not allowed by divine law - which ironically enough I do believe in.

It is when humans assume the self-important role of God that I have umbrage with. As if they have effable idea of what ineffable means.

Speaking of contrary as Sylheti-Baba points out yes, contrarily it is the very religion that poisons mankind, forces someone into rigid straitjacket that irks and nudges one to do the unthinkable.

I am actually quite liking this Sylheti dude.. hehe...he almost has an Ornobian firepower.

But really, smh.... to think that humans are some simpletons who as if not disciplined will go haywire.

Zen is akin to atheism a bit. As Alan Watts roughly said once that Zen masters understand anything goes, yet you do not see them raping their grandmother or robbing others.

It is so pitiful and simplistic idea that humans are some disempowered souls who hasn't an ounce of conscience who if not guided will be led to astray.

Maybe a on a given day, I would rightfully become atheist just to make mockery of that tone. But as many know I do believe in a Universal Love or Great Power and...









that power is YOU.

al Furqaan
November 21, 2016, 07:34 PM
What evidence? I find it funny this whole disempowerment of mankind into feeble weak beings incapable of making right decisions utterly risible. And then again it grossly assumes that there IS a clear distinction between right or wrong. So that statement is rife with assumptions.

The same body of evidence that suggests religion kills...ie human history.

al Furqaan
November 21, 2016, 08:10 PM
Absolutely agree that religion is man made and ego alone can pull triggers. So to put faith in the mix and add things like god's will, fate; gunaah, fitnaah et all is just to muddy up the waters. An activity perfected down to an art by the Jehadi gangs in BD. All things being equal, good people will do good while bad people will do bad things, but for good people to turn bad requires religion. A pie in the sky justification helped justify the Charlie Hebdo killings, the killings of innocents in Dhaka, the killing of Avijit Roy. The fact that you and me think of this pie in the sky justification as facile and naive didn't matter one bit.

Whoa...wait. How do we know that any of those people are "good" people? Even if Avijit Roy's murderer is your own son, you still couldn't vouch for his "goodness." No one knows me better than my mom, and she would swear I've never intentionally logged onto youjizz dot com.

The other issue is, who defines "good?" In other words how does anyone know what is truly good?



Yes they do, and they play by the rules set for the game. Strictly in accordance with the law books of the game. No scope for improvisation or ambiguity. And where ambiguity creeps in the laws are changed.

well let me say it this way:

Cricket players fix matches, the game of cricket itself does not. I think thats a better way to phrase it.


The premise is correct, the conclusion is non sequitur. What evidence do we have of the contrary? Religious wars, crusades, jihads (which are passed off as imperialism) have bloodied the pages of history so much nothing else can hold a candle to it. The religious right always tries hard to seek similar "moral equivalence" to try and shield and somehow justify the existence of religion and the violence therein, nothing new in it.

How about the existence of the cosa nostra? Bloods? Crips? Are they too acting on Papal or biblical principles?

Have atheists not committed murder, rape, or destruction?

If they have not, its false and the debate ends.

If they have, it proves atheists can murder, rape and destroy in the absence of any religious motive, and the debate ends.


Atheism is an idea, when did I claim its not. Its a negation of the super being fallacy. That and it doesn't advocate world domination or sanction hatred/ostracization/extermination of non adherents namely deists and theists.

It doesn't matter what it advocates or doesn't advocate, as long as its proponents engage in it.

Your claim is implicit by stating "we dont have scripture, therefore we can do no wrong." Which is the definition of a non sequitur.

You might say that wasn't your position. But then I would ask what is?

If neither religion nor lack of religion can claim to better the human condition, why should the latter claim superiority? Shouldn't it be proven first in some real world setting and confirmed to rule out random success? If you claim to own empiricism, data gathering, and evidence based conclusions, you should relish the opportunity to lead by verifiable fact, I would imagine.


Inaccurate, the Bible and the Quran are accepted by the majority(if not all) of their religious adherents as the true word of God. Hindus and Buddhists have more than one set of books but they are accepted as collective divine guidance. A Malay friend for example studies Hinayana/Mahayana/Zen Buddhist books.

Catholics have books in their canon not found in Protestant copies. Dismissal of 500,000,000 protestants as a "minority" is unwarranted IMO, no matter their percentage.

There are no parallels in atheistic thought schools because there's no Deity or Hujur or Guru who runs a shop dependent on dole from (politicos and/or fundamentalist religious thought schools). Atheism is a non prophet organisation.

Most atheists argue its not an organization at all. And I just googled it amd found this:

https://firstchurchofatheism.org

Not a "religion", yet has a "church". Well at least it proves Michael Flyn correct that islam isnt a religion...they don't even have a church!

Donal C
November 22, 2016, 03:45 PM
Whatever religion promises to keep al's avatar unchanged for the rest of time, I'm in.

Sylheti_Beta
November 24, 2016, 07:54 AM
Whoa...wait. How do we know that any of those people are "good" people? Even if Avijit Roy's murderer is your own son, you still couldn't vouch for his "goodness." No one knows me better than my mom, and she would swear I've never intentionally logged onto youjizz dot com.
Cheers bhai.
Even if you logged onto youjizz dot com, would you consider that "not good" what are the parameters by which this judgement is made?

All this goodness chatter is primarily about morality. Cutting to the chase, morality from a human angle is about well-being. As physical beings in this physical universe, our actions have consequences that are dictated by physical laws, they are not mere products of our mind or divine intervention. We are aware of the consequences and take actions accordingly.


The other issue is, who defines "good?" In other words how does anyone know what is truly good? Yep it’s intriguing isn’t it? So, where do these objective morals come from anyway? Religion?!?! Since atheism does not seem to know (as per theists)?


How about the existence of the cosa nostra? Bloods? Crips? Are they too acting on Papal or biblical principles?
Have atheists not committed murder, rape, or destruction?
Yes what about them. They don’t claim to act on Papal or biblical principles either. Not the same for Hefazat e Islam, Boko Haram, ISIS, Jabhaat al Nusra et all. These groups claim to act on principles laid down in the holy books and provide scriptural justification, whether folks agree or disagree with them doesn't matter one bit, contrarian lip-service doesn't matter one bit. Zakir Naik famously quoted that he thinks ISIS is un-Islamic, excellent. I’d rather he put his money where is mouth is and organize workshops in Syria to rectify the situation; rather than have Bangla translations of his vitriol...er sermons, forced down the throats of BD nationals leading up to incidents like Holey Artisan. He can continue to spread the love or whatever in his home country, oh wait he's banned now based on specific feedback from BD.
If Cosa Nostra, Bloods or Crips "who are not exactly loved" would claim divine guidance, they would not be championed either. It’s no secret that the jehadi/fundamentalist organizations have avid fan following with recruits joining up from countries all over the world(our's included). On a lighter note, I have yet to come across a BD national who is aligned to Cosa Nostra or Cripps though E-). সিজাল my নিজাল হোমি


It doesn't matter what it advocates or doesn't advocate, as long as its proponents engage in it.
Yep so why tout religion then as the be-all end-all perfect system for humankind if adherents can ignore it and act recklessly ? This is not ICC law after all, its divine law no less. Why didn't the all powerful omnipresent omnipotent maker fix the manufacturing defects in said adherents for so long ?

More later.....

Sylheti_Beta
November 24, 2016, 08:04 AM
Speaking of contrary as Sylheti-Baba points out yes, contrarily it is the very religion that poisons mankind, forces someone into rigid straitjacket that irks and nudges one to do the unthinkable.
I am actually quite liking this Sylheti dude.. hehe...he almost has an Ornobian firepower.
Thanks Zeeshan, Ornobian firepower ta kita ba ? :ohno: Rowling/Tolkien reference.....:D

al Furqaan
November 24, 2016, 03:38 PM
Cheers bhai.
Even if you logged onto youjizz dot com, would you consider that "not good" what are the parameters by which this judgement is made?[

That was my question for you since you brought up the issue of "good" people suddenly going "bad". On what basis does one vouch for another? I know this guy named Paul, is he good or bad, or in the process of going bad?

All this goodness chatter is primarily about morality. Cutting to the chase, morality from a human angle is about well-being. As physical beings in this physical universe, our actions have consequences that are dictated by physical laws, they are not mere products of our mind or divine intervention. We are aware of the consequences and take actions accordingly.

Actually morality doesn't exist.

Years ago I had a series of conversations with an atheist friend of mine (technically an agnostic, but practically an atheist). His opinion is that altruism is a myth just like god or religion. Its a feel good story that people believe in because the alternative is too dark a reality for most people to come to grips with. Simple concept, but with difficult to accept cpnsequences, a lot light Einstein's special relativity.

The central tenet is that it is physically impossible for any human to act in anything other than immediate self interest.


Yep it’s intriguing isn’t it? So, where do these objective morals come from anyway? Religion?!?! Since atheism does not seem to know (as per theists)?

Ultimately its just some old man (possibly woman) who first came up with things like not stealing, not cheating, or not killing. Presumably this occurred within the last 50,000 years when our species attained behavioral modernity. So all morals come from the same essential source, some ancient human being, shaped by his societal condition at the time.

Yes what about them. They don’t claim to act on Papal or biblical principles either. Not the same for Hefazat e Islam, Boko Haram, ISIS, Jabhaat al Nusra et all. These groups claim to act on principles laid down in the holy books and provide scriptural justification, whether folks agree or disagree with them doesn't matter one bit, contrarian lip-service doesn't matter one bit. Zakir Naik famously quoted that he thinks ISIS is un-Islamic, excellent. I’d rather he put his money where is mouth is and organize workshops in Syria to rectify the situation; rather than have Bangla translations of his vitriol...er sermons, forced down the throats of BD nationals leading up to incidents like Holey Artisan. He can continue to spread the love or whatever in his home country, oh wait he's banned now based on specific feedback from BD.
If Cosa Nostra, Bloods or Crips "who are not exactly loved" would claim divine guidance, they


If true, this lends support to the view of Michael Flynn that Islam is different from other religions in that its not a religion, but political ideology using religion as a cover.

But then whats your beef with other religions, the ones with perfectly non violent adherents?

Yep so why tout religion then as the be-all end-all perfect system for humankind if adherents can ignore it and act recklessly ? This is not ICC law after all, its divine law no less. Why didn't the all powerful omnipresent omnipotent maker fix the manufacturing defects in said adherents for so long ?

Thats the other side fallacy, isn't it? If there are conceivable alternative states (a perfect world) we can always ask why if the grass is greener on the other side, how come we're on this side?

Secondly, if lack of faith is the guarantor of a perfect world...and lack of faith already exists, that should suffice as a failure of lack of faith to make any meaningful change to the human condition. Neither faith nor atheism is a magic pill, yet atheists tend to give the impression the worlds ills would be rid with a simple lack of faith.

mufi_02
November 24, 2016, 04:01 PM
All these talk goes wayyy over my head. But Alfie bola teh ami youjizz dot com e gelam. Chi chi chi!! Egula ki dekhlam. Ami alfie ki eto bhalo jantam....:(

brockley
November 24, 2016, 04:29 PM
Live and let live.
But don't be afraid of who you are and what you believe.
Its natural if you are a believer and say so,for someone to challenge you.
I have had that experience as a christian,and no doubt some of you in the west have had the same challenge.
It just irks some ppl you actually believe or have faith,they can't get their head around it.

al Furqaan
November 24, 2016, 05:22 PM
All these talk goes wayyy over my head. But Alfie bola teh ami youjizz dot com e gelam. Chi chi chi!! Egula ki dekhlam. Ami alfie ki eto bhalo jantam....:(

Cant vouch for anyone except your own self. You have no way of knowing if a person is good or bad. No one is all good or all bad anyways.

mufi_02
November 24, 2016, 05:33 PM
Cant vouch for anyone except your own self. You have no way of knowing if a person is good or bad. No one is all good or all bad anyways.

I don't get it. Too philosophical. But what is good and bad? Who defines good and bad?

But you are right. It got me thinking. Youjizz dot com e dekhlam nengta nengta chele meye dushtu dushtu kaj kortase. Kintu egula dushtu kaj kharap kaj egula ke bollo? Egula toh bhalo hoteo pare. Pare nah?

al Furqaan
November 24, 2016, 08:43 PM
I don't get it. Too philosophical. But what is good and bad? Who defines good and bad?

But you are right. It got me thinking. Youjizz dot com e dekhlam nengta nengta chele meye dushtu dushtu kaj kortase. Kintu egula dushtu kaj kharap kaj egula ke bollo? Egula toh bhalo hoteo pare. Pare nah?

Thats the funny part. Dari wala moulvis get a sadaqah for doing the same thing. But get it in front of a camera and becomes something 100 countries have passed laws against!

Btw, not saying Im pro ****. Just highlghting another argument that some people make.

Sylheti_Beta
November 29, 2016, 08:50 AM
That was my question for you since you brought up the issue of "good" people suddenly going "bad". On what basis does one vouch for another? I know this guy named Paul, is he good or bad, or in the process of going bad?
Actually morality doesn't exist.

We don't have to vouch for one another. We simply work together as collaborative creatures or pack animals (yes we are, though we don’t like to think so). The same ties exist among wolves, schools of fishes, flocks of birds; they don’t have to vouch for the actions or the character of the other, they just work together. Any flock, pack member who doesn’t comply gets ejected or left out.

As stated previously, I consider morality from a human angle to be about well-being. As physical beings in this physical universe, our actions have consequences that are dictated by physical laws (not mere products of our mind or divine intervention). We are aware of the consequences and take actions accordingly to ensure well being and avoid harm.

Morality is subjective and depend on how people value things; which is subject to their desires and interests. Morals evolved/were shaped according to these principles of well being (what’s good vs what's harmful). You have elaborated this quite well in the example below. Possibly several people, young folk included contribute/contributed to the process.


Ultimately its just some old man (possibly woman) who first came up with things like not stealing, not cheating, or not killing. Presumably this occurred within the last 50,000 years when our species attained behavioral modernity. So all morals come from the same essential source, some ancient human being, shaped by his societal condition at the time. I couldn’t agree more that morals come from human beings and not divinity. Religion subsumes it and is not the exclusive proponent or authority. The problem with religion, is moral absolutism, is its dogmatic opposition to embrace change or move with the times. That’s where it branches away from science as well.


Years ago I had a series of conversations with an atheist friend of mine (technically an agnostic, but practically an atheist). His opinion is that altruism is a myth just like god or religion.
The central tenet is that it is physically impossible for any human to act in anything other than immediate self interest.
Absolutely, the word selfish has been meaninglessly misconstrued to be evil, whereas in reality people pursue their self interests and goals primarily.

In popular usage, the word “selfishness” is a synonym of evil; the image it conjures is of a murderous brute trampling over piles of corpses to achieve his own ends, one who doesn’t care for living beings and pursues nothing but the gratification of the mindless whims of any immediate moment. Yet the exact meaning and dictionary definition of the word “selfishness” is: concern with one’s own interests.
The meaning ascribed in popular usage to the word “selfishness” is not merely wrong; it represents a devastating intellectual “package-deal, which is used to demean and denigrate.

If true, this lends support to the view of Michael Flynn that Islam is different from other religions in that it’s not a religion, but political ideology using religion as a cover. Islam is not just a religion, it’s touted as the be all end all system for humanity. It has been used in the past by Caliphs and priestly elite to control and subjugate. Our ruling and priestly elite in the present times is not very different in that respect.
Specifically, verses from Surah al Kafirun, Surah at Taubah, Surah al Anfal have all been in the past (and still are) quoted to justify actions which may be regarded as immoral or cruel; Islam continues to be used thus.

On a lighter note, if an atheist commits a crime there's no amount of mental gymnastics or scriptural twisting that can be successfully indulged in to paint a rosy picture, as apologist narratives are the prerogative of religionists. Atheists could re-engineer the classic one liner and say Atheism has nothing to do with violence. But they don't darn stubborn Atheists.
But then whats your beef with other religions, the ones with perfectly non violent adherents?
That religion reduces perfectly logical humans into forlock tugging, self flagellating folk who have to lead an obsequious life, always seeking forgiveness and praying for deliverance from a life of sin. That those who don’t follow a religious path are considered reprobates simply waiting to get to that special place in hell or ignorant ungulates who don't know better.
That’s the other side fallacy, isn't it? If there are conceivable alternative states (a perfect world) we can always ask why if the grass is greener on the other side, how come we're on this side?
Secondly, if lack of faith is the guarantor of a perfect world...and lack of faith already exists, that should suffice as a failure of lack of faith to make any meaningful change to the human condition. Neither faith nor atheism is a magic pill, yet atheists tend to give the impression the worlds ills would be rid with a simple lack of faith.
I won’t make any far reaching claims yet until we get to a state where Irreligiosity is not de-rigueur. I would reserve my opinion till then.

al Furqaan
November 30, 2016, 07:54 PM
We don't have to vouch for one another.

I thought you had vouched for the Gulshan attackers where you said something along the likes of them being "good" kids who "went bad" due to a particular interpretation of Islam/religion. Apologies if my recollection is mistaken.

As stated previously, I consider morality from a human angle to be about well-being. As physical beings in this physical universe, our actions have consequences that are dictated by physical laws (not mere products of our mind or divine intervention). We are aware of the consequences and take actions accordingly to ensure well being and avoid harm.

Morality is subjective and depend on how people value things; which is subject to their desires and interests. Morals evolved/were shaped according to these principles of well being (what’s good vs what's harmful). You have elaborated this quite well in the example below. Possibly several people, young folk included contribute/contributed to the process.


ensuring well being and avoiding harm for whom? The way I see it there is a difference between good-bad and moral/immoral. An atheist can be a good person (or like Stalin a very bad person), however an atheist cannot be a "moral" person in the strictest sense of the word because there is no authority to dictate a moral code. You have only immediate self interest.



Islam is not just a religion, it’s touted as the be all end all system for humanity. It has been used in the past by Caliphs and priestly elite to control and subjugate. Our ruling and priestly elite in the present times is not very different in that respect.
Specifically, verses from Surah al Kafirun, Surah at Taubah, Surah al Anfal have all been in the past (and still are) quoted to justify actions which may be regarded as immoral or cruel; Islam continues to be used thus.

On a lighter note, if an atheist commits a crime there's no amount of mental gymnastics or scriptural twisting that can be successfully indulged in to paint a rosy picture, as apologist narratives are the prerogative of religionists. Atheists could re-engineer the classic one liner and say Atheism has nothing to do with violence. But they don't darn stubborn Atheists.

That religion reduces perfectly logical humans into forlock tugging, self flagellating folk who have to lead an obsequious life, always seeking forgiveness and praying for deliverance from a life of sin. That those who don’t follow a religious path are considered reprobates simply waiting to get to that special place in hell or ignorant ungulates who don't know better.


Interestingly enough, and you may find this enlightening...Islam both scripturally and in reality, calls only for defensive military engagements. What is most important here is that the historical record and the Quran's commandments on this matter corroborate each other.


I appreciate your comment on atheism having nothing to do with violence. Totally correct. But Islam too has nothing to do with violence, as Christianity has nothing to do with the crusades, and Zionism has nothing to do with "al naqba". It is rather the actions of atheists, muslims, christians, and zionists.

"Guns don't kill people. People kill people." To quote from the NRA.


On a lighter note, here is Dave Chappelle's monologue on SNL recently. Hits on a few hot topics doing the rounds in US political discourse. Noteably, clarifies the distinction between actually being something, and merely giving a "shout out" with his Wu Tang line.


<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/--IS0XiNdpk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


I won’t make any far reaching claims yet until we get to a state where Irreligiosity is not de-rigueur. I would reserve my opinion till then.

The internet is a safe place for bold claims...lol. that being said, do we really need to wait for winter before stating that water will freeze once the temperature drops beloa 32F/0C? I hope we can make such a bold claim.

brockley
December 1, 2016, 02:08 AM
The Knights Templers played a big role in the crusades and the liberation of Jerusalem,they we're christian gnostics,or a variance of paganism,they were big bankers in medievil europe,and the raped pillaged jerusalem killing muslims and jews alike.They also collected christian and gnostic artifacts during their time in what is called their pilgramige.
yes their we're true christians involved in the crusade no doubt,but the Knights Templers lead the way.
Just as Hitlerism was a mixture of christianity and neo paganism,not so sure about Mussolini,the nazis we're seriously involved in the occult,especially in the SS,and Hitler who was a vegan before it became popular consulted psychics as did Winston Churchill.Alistair Crowley a known satanist worked for MI5.The British side was heavily influenced by freemasonary,which Hitler hated.Hitler also hated evangelical christians and catholics and killed over a million of them over europe.He integrated his beliefs of himself as the fuhrer into the Lutheran church,mixing christianity and neo paganism into their doctine.Just like the chinese have integrated themselves into the former catholic church and have imposed communist doctine into that church.However their is an underground church.
Just some interesting facts i have come accross.
The gnostics came up with the idea based on the supposed books of Mary,that Jesus and mary were a couple and pro created.Pretty blasphemus stuff,based on the book the Holy Blood the Holy grail.Its thought that these ideas go back to the Knights templers.

al Furqaan
December 12, 2016, 01:47 AM
https://thesufisynik.wordpress.com/2016/12/12/concerning-quran-434-the-infamous-beat-them-verse/

This was actually brought up several years ago by the now retired Sohel bhai, concerning the Quran's apparent allowance of "light" domestic abuse. Indeed, the government of Pakistan now allows very "mild" beating of the wife by the husband. Looks like the poor maulvis in Pakistan haven't got a clue what the actual arabic text of Quran says, haha!

Interestingly enough, it would appear as though the Quran only says "beat them" because mysogynists have been interpretting it for most of the last 1400 years. The word "beat" (adribuhunna) is magically translated as "going" or "move away from" (daraba) in other parts of the Quran.

Curioser and curioser...

shakibrulz
December 12, 2016, 10:09 PM
Interesting. I wish I could respond individually since I feel like addressing a both of claims/arguments from both sides, but I'll just start sharing my own view.

For me religion is interesting merely as a sociocultural phenomenon - how it's historically evolved, why the concept of religion appeals to human beings in the first place, etc.

Otherwise I'm a non believer/atheist, and I see no rational reason to believe in any variant of God(s), let alone religion.

shakibrulz
December 12, 2016, 10:36 PM
https://thesufisynik.wordpress.com/2016/12/12/concerning-quran-434-the-infamous-beat-them-verse/


Interestingly enough, it would appear as though the Quran only says "beat them" because mysogynists have been interpretting it for most of the last 1400 years. The word "beat" (adribuhunna) is magically translated as "going" or "move away from" (daraba) in other parts of the Quran.

Curioser and curioser...

So essentially what you would be claiming would be:
A. Even if this were true: all the popular translators of Quran were mysogynists and/or had little understanding of Arabic.

B. There are instances where daraba doesn't literally mean 'hit', but it's always qualified by a similitude or such. You can any other instances with the root verb 'darb' and see if that fits here.

Move away from would be something like Wadriboo 'anhunna

I think this is also backed by various Tafsirs btw

al Furqaan
December 13, 2016, 01:03 AM
So essentially what you would be claiming would be:
A. Even if this were true: all the popular translators of Quran were mysogynists and/or had little understanding of Arabic.


Bingo. Shocking but not really.

Rifat
December 14, 2016, 12:11 AM
Shakibrulz, were you born in a Muslim family? your knowledge of Islam in certain aspects is very impressive.

(then again you were born in India, a country where almost everyone (from certain regions) has a PHD in every religion conceivable)

Rifat
December 14, 2016, 12:12 AM
i have heard that the first person who translated the Qu'ran in Bangla language was a hindu. I forgot his name and i am not 100% sure how true this claim is.

tonmoy.dhaka
January 4, 2017, 02:32 PM
I think everyone heard about the nightclub attack in turkey. 38 + dead and many injured.

Anyways I was reading this Toronto Star article (https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2017/01/04/istanbul-nightclub-gunman-identified-turkey-says.html). Inside there are these two passages which is quite disturbing but not surprising.

In his first public address to the nation since the killings, President Recep Tayyip Erdogan said that the attack aimed to set Turks against each other and deepen fault lines, but warned the country would not fall “for this game.”

His comments followed a campaign before the attack by some ruling party supporters and pro-Islamic groups who warned against New Year’s celebrations they depicted as Western or Christian traditions, as well as some social media postings that seemed to support the attack on the New Year’s revelers.

Again, Dhaka attack would never had taken place if Government of Bangladesh showed the same level of urgency in catching the culprit of the murderers of bloggers and atheists as they did after the gulshan attack. You cannot domesticate venomous snakes. Turkey and Erdogan will suffer the same fate if they try to appease the snakes in the form of ultra conservative islamic elements which make up more than half of his party.

brockley
January 5, 2017, 04:47 PM
I can see a day where Australians going over for ANZAc day in Gallipoli will stop.
Which would be sad,its a day of remembrance and peace.
Australians are already thinking twice whether to go over to Europe now.

bujhee kom
January 8, 2017, 07:11 PM
Thank you all my fellow humans.

Hey brockley, do you know the differnece between 'Kabira Gunnah' and Shagira Gunaah'??
My sleep is totally absolutely haraam, as I am very worried about all the Kabira and Shagira sins that I have commited in this lifetime...please elaborate and explain hamara dosto!

Thank you in advance, Nasif bhaiyo and Rifat dosto! Quickly, Taratari bolun. I need to know this before my game is over. Also please list the items under each Gunaah/sins.

Yah my Lord, maaf kornewala Mabud!

brockley
January 8, 2017, 09:13 PM
NO bujhee but I am willing to learn.
Most Australians know about Bangladesh is they play cricket.And they cheered Bangladesh on when they beat England.
I've never picked up a Koran.I don't read enough of my bible as it is.

adamnsu
January 9, 2017, 09:04 AM
NO bujhee but I am willing to learn.
Most Australians know about Bangladesh is they play cricket.And they cheered Bangladesh on when they beat England.
I've never picked up a Koran.I don't read enough of my bible as it is.

All the English fans went wild at the stadium when BD beat Australia ( I know cuz I was there). I heard from my friends watching the game at the pub, similar kind of sentiment.

Brits and Ozzies hate each other when it comes to cricket