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DinRaat.
February 17, 2017, 01:54 AM
Personally, as a Muslim, I do not like the idea of a Burqa,To be honest, I really dislike the idea of the complete Burqa that covers everything from head to toe, It really isn`t compatible in today's societal context, and lets not get started on the social implications it draws out, people in this century need to see a face in order to communicate, don`t get why people still wear the Burqa, as I see it as a hindrance to rights plus, its deeming, another thing I feel is that it can be a safety risk these days, with the enslaught of terrorism, its a right thing by many countries to ban the burqa and niqab, just does not work in the 21st century....Plus its not even obligatory, so I don`t know why its so highly regarded, especially in Bangladesh, were we have tainted intrepretations of the quran, were many imams preach the wrong/incorrect thing.

adamnsu
February 17, 2017, 06:58 AM
On the aspect of safety, I do agree it shouldnt be allowed. But on the aspects of rights I dont agree. If you think of it from another prespective, if wearing this cloth is banned , isnt one infringing the rights of someone willingly wanting to wear this garment?

I know you used the line "just does not work in the 21st century" for the clothing but this is something alot of anti Islam activist use to make Islam sound out dated. I am not religious myself but trying to justify Islam with the 21st Century is something I dont have the capacity to debate about.

And on a counter note, if the Quran was properly interpretted/followed in our country, why are we still the most corrupted country in the world? why is alcohol allowed to be sold and produced in our country?

Shingara
February 17, 2017, 08:30 AM
There is no mention of wearing a burkha in the Quran.
However, it does say how women must dress. The Burqa fits that criteria. As the burkha is the traditional dress of the Arabs, AND as Islam's birthplace is Arabia, Muslims tend to wear the burkha.

Wearing hijab / scarf is compulsory.

Wearing niqab isn't mentioned anywhere in the Quran and invented in SE Asia. In fact, it is prohibited to cover your face when doing Umrah or Hajj.

Mas_UK25
February 17, 2017, 03:41 PM
Touchy subject. Let people decide for themselves what to wear. IMO

Islamically it is not compulsory to be fully covered. Hijab is covered the hair, up to the wrist, fully down to the feet, but you don't have to cover your face. Hijab isn't just the garment, it's much more than that, Hijab is whole package itself, how you conduct yourself, behave, act. Goes to both genders.

Tigers_eye
February 17, 2017, 05:37 PM
I do not like the idea of a Burqa,To be honest, I really dislike the idea of the complete Burqa that covers everything from head to toe, It really isn`t compatible in today's societal context
DinRaat,
Please wear one before make a judgment on the cloth.

I heard from those who wear, that she/they felt uplifting while wearing a burkha cause they are not subjected to tease while wearing and walking in the BD streets.

If someone wants to wear one, who am I to stop them? Wouldn't that violate their freedom of choice in wearing what cloths they want to wear?

tonmoy.dhaka
February 17, 2017, 06:06 PM
DinRaat,
Please wear one before make a judgment on the cloth.

I heard from those who wear, that she/they felt uplifting while wearing a burkha cause they are not subjected to tease while wearing and walking in the BD streets.

If someone wants to wear one, who am I to stop them? Wouldn't that violate their freedom of choice in wearing what cloths they want to wear?

If women are teased than society should find a way to punish the culprit (the men) and make the street safe for women. Not force the victim to hide herself.

Hypothetically speaking men can also roam the streets wearing a ski mask, but that is not ideal either when you are socializing.

Shingara
February 17, 2017, 06:16 PM
Didn't that girl who used to do private tution get raped and beheaded by BD police? She wore a hijab and burkha - didn't do her any good

Zeeshan
February 17, 2017, 06:23 PM
When I walk into a pub I always warn.. Lower your gaze, women. Lower your gaze!

BengaliPagol
February 17, 2017, 06:45 PM
If a woman wears a burqa willingly it shows that she is striving to being completely devoted to Allah. Society is trying to make ppl dress down and wear less but instead a burqa wearing muslim is going against the social norm and for that i will always have a lot of respect for women who wear the burqa. They are experiencing true freedom, something we all muslims should strive for because in today's society we are tied down to people i.e. our boss, wives etc. The idea that other people "dont like it" or "feels weird" when it comes to seeing a woman wear a burqa is rather a reflection of that person's imaan imo but thats not an assumption that i want to make but I don't see any other reasoning.

Fazal
February 17, 2017, 07:28 PM
Burqa/Niqab/Full cover garment

I also would like to add few other topics: Burkani, Kurbani, and Halal Beer.

What do you think?

DinRaat.
February 17, 2017, 07:35 PM
Another thing is, Why The F, do people make dawat for 100s of people after a relative dies, a auntie of mine who recently died. We had to feed people in our village for their Dua!!!!.... What kind of **** mentatility is this, feeding people for their dua, I ask them if this is mentioned in the quran, they say it is, when it clearly isn`t, such a false tradition built on lies

brockley
February 17, 2017, 11:59 PM
I have my opinions,but will stay away from debate.
Except to say security,that is the only real problem I have.
Many of the Black widow Russian bombers wear Burquas too.
Otherwise don't care.

We have many Muslims in Wollongong,doesn't bother me,I see Buquas give a curios glance and move on.
For me to see a Turban or a Sikh headdress would cause more astonishment, because I have seen Burquas often and not Sikhs with headdress or people with Turbans.
And yes we do have Indians in Wollongong,their is a temple near here.

ReZ_1
February 18, 2017, 08:18 AM
I don`t get where is the debate..

If you have grown up and established yourself properly who is forcing you to wear burqa if you are not willing to wear it personally.
It is a personal matter how one wants to dress up him/herself..

ReZ_1
February 18, 2017, 08:22 AM
Another thing is, Why The F, do people make dawat for 100s of people after a relative dies, a auntie of mine who recently died. We had to feed people in our village for their Dua!!!!.... What kind of **** mentatility is this, feeding people for their dua, I ask them if this is mentioned in the quran, they say it is, when it clearly isn`t, such a false tradition built on lies

It is actually a misconception I guess. The only thing you can get in return in most cases by feeding those 100s of upper class society of relatives is backbiting.. there will be more comments on the food and organizations than the actual issue

adamnsu
February 18, 2017, 08:32 AM
Another thing is, Why The F, do people make dawat for 100s of people after a relative dies, a auntie of mine who recently died. We had to feed people in our village for their Dua!!!!.... What kind of **** mentatility is this, feeding people for their dua, I ask them if this is mentioned in the quran, they say it is, when it clearly isn`t, such a false tradition built on lies

That's taking the conversation away from the main topic of burqua . But yes this is more of a cultural thing of the dawat. But feeding the poor people when someone dies, what's the harm in that? And I have seen lavish funerals done in the west. And a lot of money is spend there as well. Some of them dress the dead person in a very nice suit. A lot of guests are very concerned what dresses they will wear to the funeral, etc etc. Every culture has their own way of funeral preparations. This is Bangladesh's way.

Tigers_eye
February 18, 2017, 10:05 AM
If someone wants to wear one, who am I to stop them? Wouldn't that violate their freedom of choice in wearing what cloths they want to wear?If women are teased than society should find a way to punish the culprit (the men) and make the street safe for women. Not force the victim to hide herself..Clearly you didn't read my last sentence.

And the so called society laws is not being implemented 99% of the time. Fail on you and me. Her wearing a Burkha, is HER CHOICE. Not your's or mine. Same with Hijab.

SportingBD
February 18, 2017, 10:18 AM
Very worrying.

If a women wants to show faith in God by listening to the command of the Quran, Bible, etc, than should one force them from not following those command? e.g. some women cover themselves by wearing the Hijab for modesty etc.. irrespective of what religion you come from, should the law of the land take away the right of the women to practice their religion?

I find it very strange that some humans are trying to force women's to becoming like them, e.g. walk half naked, wear tight fit clothes etc.. just because you don't wear a hijab etc should you force others to do the same? I don't really understand this logic. I agree that on certain things you can't cover your face, etc while you go through airport checks etc.. but going out to the market, in public places, the women has the right to exercise her religious belief? or should law take that right away from the women?

Miraz
February 18, 2017, 10:22 AM
An adult can decide whatever he or she wants to wear in public. It's his or her choice and not our business.

We should not force other people to wear or not wear something because it feels weird to us. This is a problem with "us" not the person who is wearing the dress.

iDumb
February 18, 2017, 10:48 AM
Clearly you didn't read my last sentence.

And the so called society laws is not being implemented 99% of the time. Fail on you and me. Her wearing a Burkha, is HER CHOICE. Not your's or mine. Same with Hijab.

You are actually getting in argument with this tonmoy guy? LOL. Do you not see a trend in his posts? This guy is somewhat delusionally closed minded if you ask me....

Obviously he never interacted with a true strong muslim woman yet talks so much crap about women rights, minority right... delusional this guy.

iDumb
February 18, 2017, 10:52 AM
Women wear burqa in fear of being teased? haha.. This guy lives in a hole i think and creates stories in his head...

If some goon is gonna tease a women.. he will tease her whether she wears full burqa or see through blue shaari or bikini...

iDumb
February 18, 2017, 10:54 AM
Another thing is, Why The F, do people make dawat for 100s of people after a relative dies, a auntie of mine who recently died. We had to feed people in our village for their Dua!!!!.... What kind of **** mentatility is this, feeding people for their dua, I ask them if this is mentioned in the quran, they say it is, when it clearly isn`t, such a false tradition built on lies

Maybe it's time you spend some of your money (thukkku your parents money) on charity than on yourself. I think there is problem in the way you think.

Feeding people in village makes you angry? Bhalo Khub bhalo. This mentality is the problem not the other one.

ReZ_1
February 18, 2017, 11:41 AM
Very worrying.

If a women wants to show faith in God by listening to the command of the Quran, Bible, etc, than should one force them from not following those command? e.g. some women cover themselves by wearing the Hijab for modesty etc.. irrespective of what religion you come from, should the law of the land take away the right of the women to practice their religion?

I find it very strange that some humans are trying to force women's to becoming like them, e.g. walk half naked, wear tight fit clothes etc.. just because you don't wear a hijab etc should you force others to do the same? I don't really understand this logic. I agree that on certain things you can't cover your face, etc while you go through airport checks etc.. but going out to the market, in public places, the women has the right to exercise her religious belief? or should law take that right away from the women?

Very simple.. change the place you live in.. ofcourse the first consideration should be whether staying in that land where she is deprived from performing her religious act willingly and by sacrificing it can she do any considerable good for the society or not. if this doesn`t matter and she can establish herself anywhere then she should quit from there. yes she will face difficulties and that is the test and will show your real imaan within the heart. Maybe better opportunities are awaiting elsewhere, we are too scared to search for.. actually there are always some people who are escapist and tries to find the reasons for undone..

I have even seen people who do not pray properly in the day during week days because they feel shy to pray around the non muslims...

SportingBD
February 18, 2017, 12:11 PM
Very simple.. change the place you live in.. ofcourse the first consideration should be whether staying in that land where she is deprived from performing her religious act willingly and by sacrificing it can she do any considerable good for the society or not. if this doesn`t matter and she can establish herself anywhere then she should quit from there. yes she will face difficulties and that is the test and will show your real imaan within the heart. Maybe better opportunities are awaiting elsewhere, we are too scared to search for.. actually there are always some people who are escapist and tries to find the reasons for undone..

I have even seen people who do not pray properly in the day during week days because they feel shy to pray around the non muslims...

If you have to flee a country to practice your religious obligation, you ought to question what is happening to the world?

Are we returning to the dark ages again?

tonmoy.dhaka
February 19, 2017, 01:22 AM
Clearly you didn't read my last sentence.

And the so called society laws is not being implemented 99% of the time. Fail on you and me. Her wearing a Burkha, is HER CHOICE. Not your's or mine. Same with Hijab.

My comment was based on you saying
" heard from those who wear, that she/they felt uplifting while wearing a burkha cause they are not subjected to tease while wearing and walking in the BD streets" and I am sorry but I find such an excuse extremely annoying.

Burkha is "her choice"... no doubt.. I do not oppose it but I will definitely oppose if society punishes women for not "wearing" it as is the case in IRan and Saudi. Also please note, I never came accross a genuine source that states muslim women must wear burkha...

Jadukor
February 19, 2017, 09:09 AM
According to any gender development index you look at, some of the worst countries for women will include muslim countries like Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Afghanistan etc.

Best countries include countires like:
Iceland,Norway,Australia,Canada,Ireland,Sweden,Swi tzerland, Japan etc.

But yeah.. keep believing Burqahs are not a tool for subjugation of muslim women worldwide

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/maps-and-graphics/mapped-the-best-and-worst-countries-for-gender-equality/

iDumb
February 19, 2017, 11:00 AM
According to any gender development index you look at, some of the worst countries for women will include muslim countries like Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Afghanistan etc.

Best countries include countires like:
Iceland,Norway,Australia,Canada,Ireland,Sweden,Swi tzerland, Japan etc.

But yeah.. keep believing Burqahs are not a tool for subjugation of muslim women worldwide



What a logic. Full of gobor you know where. :facepalm:

There are women out there who feels free without showing their cleavage in public. Try meeting some, widen your horizon then come and post here. It's funny how MEN in this thread are debating a girls right to wear what she wants... the irony. TV really got to them... that's what happens when all you do 24 hours is watch tv and movies and not meeting people.

No one is talking about any countries here where even basic human rights are not respected.

Jadukor
February 19, 2017, 11:05 AM
I dont need to broaden my horizon to ashley madison levels. Thank you

Yankees
February 19, 2017, 12:08 PM
For those of you saying it is a personal choice, I agree. However, the reality is that it is hardly a personal choice. Muslim countries tend to treat women very unfairly. The extreme patriarchy and conservative culture means that women don't have a voice. Society and government might let them choose to wear whatever they want, but family pressure won't.

I do think burqas are outdated, as well as other religious garbs (like turbans for sikhs). If the only way to show your devotion to God is by what you wear, then you are doing it wrong. Burqas are also an Arab thing, which is not synonymous with Islam. Asian muslims have a tendency to venerate Arabs, even though countries like Saudi Arabia are some of the most backward, vile, disrespectful, racist countries lead by rulers who have committed every sin in the book.

tonmoy.dhaka
February 19, 2017, 01:56 PM
70 lashes if you oppose... yet apparently these women feel being uplifted per some delusional men...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89TNxTWK1CE

SportingBD
February 19, 2017, 03:10 PM
Question: How do you know if the women has been forced to wear the burqa etc?
like has there been a survey done of all the muslim women around the world?

or lets just pick for example Saudi, was there a survey conducting of say 500,000+ muslim womens? what was the outcome of the survey? The survey could easily ask something like..

Are you forced to wear the Burqa or you do it voluntarily to fulfil your religious obligation?

Please do share any surveys etc that has large sample size..

^Also, I wouldn't pick Iran to represent the whole Muslim nation.
Plus that video only has 3,000+ views, I can pick random videos from youtube and show many muslim womens do it for modesty and in fulfilling their religious duty.

Thanks in advance.

tonmoy.dhaka
February 19, 2017, 04:32 PM
Question: How do you know if the women has been forced to wear the burqa etc?
like has there been a survey done of all the muslim women around the world?

or lets just pick for example Saudi, was there a survey conducting of say 500,000+ muslim womens? what was the outcome of the survey? The survey could easily ask something like..

Are you forced to wear the Burqa or you do it voluntarily to fulfil your religious obligation?

Please do share any surveys etc that has large sample size..

^Also, I wouldn't pick Iran to represent the whole Muslim nation.
Plus that video only has 3,000+ views, I can pick random videos from youtube and show many muslim womens do it for modesty and in fulfilling their religious duty.

Thanks in advance.

Why don't you do a survey on yourself. Try going out with a veil, do not drive and do not go out without a male companion, do all this for a month and than tell me how you like it.
You are welcome.

SportingBD
February 19, 2017, 04:47 PM
Why don't you do a survey on yourself. Try going out with a veil, do not drive and do not go out without a male companion, do all this for a month and than tell me how you like it.
You are welcome.

Ha what strange way to avoid my question by counter questioning, very silly tactics.

If you don't have concrete evidence to prove that most muslim women are forced to wear the burqa except fulfilling their religious obligation why try to suggest "muslim women" are forced to do so?

It feels like you have a very silly tactic. very unfortunate to be honest.

I asked for a survey or concrete evidence to show the number of women's forced to wear the burga and the number of women's that voluntarily wear the burqa due to their religious obligation. Wouldn't it be clear if we had some data? instead of spreading the conception that muslim womens are forced to wear the burqa. what percentage of muslim women are forced? compared to what percentage wear due to their own acceptance of fulfilling their religious obligation?

bad, very bad way of answering tonmoy, very silly.

Night_wolf
February 19, 2017, 10:11 PM
According to any gender development index you look at, some of the worst countries for women will include muslim countries like Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Afghanistan etc.

Best countries include countires like:
Iceland,Norway,Australia,Canada,Ireland,Sweden,Swi tzerland, Japan etc.

But yeah.. keep believing Burqahs are not a tool for subjugation of muslim women worldwide

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/maps-and-graphics/mapped-the-best-and-worst-countries-for-gender-equality/

wow i didn't expect Bangladesh to be more equal than India on that map...even better BD is the most equal in the sub con! :wow:

DinRaat.
February 20, 2017, 12:58 AM
The idea of the burqa, is the most backwards thinking idea for women. How can one be subjected to having no freedom what so ever. To the extent for not being allowed to move around freely

DinRaat.
February 20, 2017, 12:59 AM
Go on yahoo answers and type in saudi arabia leave, you will get over 4000+ results

tonmoy.dhaka
February 20, 2017, 09:29 AM
Ha what strange way to avoid my question by counter questioning, very silly tactics.

If you don't have concrete evidence to prove that most muslim women are forced to wear the burqa except fulfilling their religious obligation why try to suggest "muslim women" are forced to do so?

It feels like you have a very silly tactic. very unfortunate to be honest.

I asked for a survey or concrete evidence to show the number of women's forced to wear the burga and the number of women's that voluntarily wear the burqa due to their religious obligation. Wouldn't it be clear if we had some data? instead of spreading the conception that muslim womens are forced to wear the burqa. what percentage of muslim women are forced? compared to what percentage wear due to their own acceptance of fulfilling their religious obligation?

bad, very bad way of answering tonmoy, very silly.

Before calling me silly, I want you to look at your replies.

1/I provided a link to a video. Since you cannot deny the information on it so your defense was "Oh look only 3K views!!!" And your second defense was " Oh look thats Iran and I wont go there", I guess your hatred of Iran is because they are Shia.
I must mention that Persians have a long and glorious history and culture. Even after thousands of restrictions, Iranian movies are still some of the best in the world.

2/ Next you asked for stats from Saudi!!! What the hell... this is a country where you are lashed and kept in prison for even minimal dissent... You are crazy to expect women to come out and provide you with stats.

My concrete evidence is every human for himself..... No one likes to be oppressed. Ask yourself if you would like for yourself what you ask these women to do.

mufi_02
February 20, 2017, 10:19 AM
This thread has great potential !!

iDumb
February 20, 2017, 10:48 AM
This thread has great potential !!

indeed! these days most of posts in this site are black and white... no complexity.

Thread is about Muslim garb and people talking about oppression of women in saudi arabia? ki aar bolbo? Saudi =/ Islam

The discussion is more complex than "i am for it, I am against it".

To ban a religious garb from state level, one has to be careful not to cross the line of religious intolerance. You can not say Islamic garb is banned but Buddhist garb is allowed. Freedom of religion needs to be respected. Also freedom of individulity needs to be maintained. Intolerance of certain religion needs to be avoided.

Now should a garb compromise the security of a nation... (not percerived security but actual security - it's imperative to make this distincition as "perceived" here is another word here for intolerance, prejudcie ) - then a certain restriction should be placed.

So yes, Burqa probably should not be allowed in most nations but people these days rarely wear them anyway. But when discussing this you have to be careful not to mix it up with hijab/other religious garb ... You may know the difference but when discussion religious garb for a wider audience - they don't make those distinction and will support complete ban of islamic clothing... and that in my opinion is dangerous.

One of the poster here even mentioned he thinks Sikh turbin archaic? I mean seriously? Who are you to pass judgement on a religion 100s of years old and still currently in practice... that's is the definiton of religious intolerance.

If certain clothing is not compatible with current society.. .it will take care of itself... ie.. there will be no jobs, opportunity for you and ultimately it's survival of the fittest.

anywyas there is not point of writing so much in a thread frequented by not so clear thinkers.

SportingBD
February 20, 2017, 11:26 AM
Unfortunately I can't respond to Tonmoy. I have promised to the elders here to stay away from this kind of discussion. I can't disappoint them after the trust they have shown in me. Just got carried away. Thanks for the reminder, Night_wolf.

Zeeshan
February 20, 2017, 12:38 PM
This thread has great potential !!

So religious ushkani muluk thread, that incites people is what I should be targeting at? Note to self.

tonmoy.dhaka
February 20, 2017, 01:00 PM
So religious ushkani muluk thread, that incites people is what I should be targeting at? Note to self.

Although this particular topic for me is a no-brainer but seems like it is not for a lot of people. So healthy debate is important. Religion should not get a free-pass at everything.
This thing called "hurting religious sentiments" is an absolute bull.

Yankees
February 20, 2017, 04:29 PM
Although this particular topic for me is a no-brainer but seems like it is not for a lot of people. So healthy debate is important. Religion should not get a free-pass at everything.
This thing called "hurting religious sentiments" is an absolute bull.

Top post :up:

mufi_02
February 20, 2017, 07:25 PM
So religious ushkani muluk thread, that incites people is what I should be targeting at? Note to self.

Yes and I'm glad you already acted upon it ;)

Jadukor
February 20, 2017, 08:56 PM
The thread is not about whether state should ban veil niqab etc but rather how one feels about it. I believe women have the right to dress however they want provided they are not forced into it and when it is not a security risk.

In terms of how i personally view the veil... i think it is a symbol of domination of men over women stemming from a patriarchal culture. It sheds girls of their own identiny as a person seperates them from social interaction with men and isolates them as a private property. When i walk through the malls i sometimes come across many fully veiled women from the middle east walking with their husbands in shorts, and i cannot help but feel sorry for their lives. Your face is your identity and what kind of life is it if you are forced to cover it up and walk around being invisible to the rest of the world.

I hope for a day when women across all muslims countries will be empowered to make their own choice and the terrible records of oppression, domestic abuse, honor killing, stoning etc will give way to a more tolerant and free societies where women are viewed as equals and not someone who stays home and cooks for you.

Yankees
February 20, 2017, 09:20 PM
One of the poster here even mentioned he thinks Sikh turbin archaic? I mean seriously? Who are you to pass judgement on a religion 100s of years old and still currently in practice... that's is the definiton of religious intolerance.

the fact that its 100s of years old is the very definition of archaic.

Nothing against sikhism but just because something has been practiced for 100s of years doesn't mean its automatically right or that I shouldn't pass judgment. Christians used to commit genocides/conquests/inquisitions in the name of God, Hindu women would have to jump into their husband's funeral pyre, not to mention the stonings of homosexuals in chirstianity, judaism, and still practiced in some islamic countries. If I said these are wrong, would you acuse me of being intolerant towards religion? :floor:

So yea I have every right to pass judgment on a religion. Just because its a religion shouldnt automatically give it immunity.

mufi_02
February 20, 2017, 09:35 PM
^ are you really comparing religious genocide (by all religion) to the customs of sikh males wearing turban ?? That is a hyperbole and extrapolation in the degree..I just can't. Enough internet and bichi logic for me today

al Furqaan
February 20, 2017, 10:02 PM
Why is this a debate topic in an all-male forum?

Its like if a bunch of bengali aunties were all talking about morning wood...

Yankees
February 20, 2017, 10:09 PM
^ are you really comparing religious genocide (by all religion) to the customs of sikh males wearing turban ?? That is a hyperbole and extrapolation in the degree..I just can't. Enough internet and bichi logic for me today

I don't think you can read if thats what you got out of it.

Rifat
February 20, 2017, 10:10 PM
I believe women have the right to dress however they want provided they are not forced into it and when it is not a security risk.


I have full respect for this underlined view :)

In terms of how i personally view the veil... i think it is a symbol of domination of men over women stemming from a patriarchal culture. It sheds girls of their own identiny as a person seperates them from social interaction with men and isolates them as a private property. When i walk through the malls i sometimes come across many fully veiled women from the middle east walking with their husbands in shorts, and i cannot help but feel sorry for their lives. Your face is your identity and what kind of life is it if you are forced to cover it up and walk aroheund being invisible to the rest of the world.


Most women who wear the niqaab(even the US, though it is a minority) is done by choice. Only two countries i think of that impose it at state/government level is Saudi and Iran(correct me if i am wrong)


I can easily make a counterargument about how there is a whole industry dedicated to the objectification of Women's body for profit in which case men or other satanic creatures telling women how to behave, and what is her worth purely based on her sexual appeal. It goes both ways.

I have posted this link before a few years back on another thread, fascinating debate on CNN on what I call "Egyptian Cat Fight" ;)

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/dtDzDXg2GQU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

tonmoy.dhaka
February 20, 2017, 10:13 PM
Why is this a debate topic in an all-male forum?

Its like if a bunch of bengali aunties were all talking about morning wood...

It is the majority or the Strong who must protect the weak... who do you think forced burqa on women?
Always remember REAL MEN ARE FEMINIST...

Rifat
February 20, 2017, 10:14 PM
Touchy subject. Let people decide for themselves what to wear. IMO

Islamically it is not compulsory to be fully covered. Hijab is covered the hair, up to the wrist, fully down to the feet, but you don't have to cover your face. Hijab isn't just the garment, it's much more than that, Hijab is whole package itself, how you conduct yourself, behave, act. Goes to both genders.

There is Hijaab for men also. it goes both ways. Islam is all about decency and modesty. If a women does not want to show me her face, that's perfectly O.K.

Rifat
February 20, 2017, 10:17 PM
Niqaab done as a religious act to please God, if it is forced upon some women against her will and the moment she escapes...things tend to go south very very quickly(same logic applies to Hijaab). That's why In Islam ideally, nobody should force anyone into anything. There is no compulsion in Deen(Islamic way of conduct) Every deed is judged by their intention.

tonmoy.dhaka
February 20, 2017, 10:22 PM
I have full respect for this underlined view :)



Most women who wear the niqaab(even the US, though it is a minority) is done by choice. Only two countries i think of that impose it at state/government level is Saudi and Iran(correct me if i am wrong)


I can easily make a counterargument about how there is a whole industry dedicated to the objectification of Women's body for profit in which case men or other satanic creatures telling women how to behave, and what is her worth purely based on her sexual appeal. It goes both ways.

I have posted this link before a few years back on another thread, fascinating debate on CNN on what I call "Egyptian Cat Fight" ;)


You dont have to impose it on state level, you can impose it on your kids inside your home.

How many women do you think choose it for themselves and how many do you think has been indoctrinated about it in home 24/7? No one chooses to be oppressed. No one decides to walk on the street with face all covered, fingers covered in 40 degrees heat.
People still do because that is how they are brought up. Yes it is their choice but a choice that was forced onto them as a kid and the society.

Burqa was forced on women in Afghanistan for decades by Taliban government. I dont recall any muslim majority country or the great so called scholars ever condemning the practice.

Rifat
February 20, 2017, 10:34 PM
There is no mention of wearing a burkha in the Quran.
.

Brother, Have you read Surah Ahzab( chapter 33, verse 59) regarding the verse, "O Prophet(SalAllahu A'laihe wasallam) tell your wives, your daughters and the believing women....."

http://www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php?sura=33&verse=59

However, there is room for Islamic scholarly interpretation of this verse. And the fact that the verse ends with Allah is Most Forgiving, Most Merciful. should give people a lot of hope. :)

Niqaab is of a higher status. In order to get to the higher levels of paradise, greater sacrifice(Jihaad) is required. Even few non muslims wore the face veil(back in the day when sexual promiscuity was the exception, not the norm)

http://www.andrewcusack.com/karlfjdeath1.jpg

In 1916, in Vienna, Austria, presented the king with his wife - which, as the queen was - was entirely covered only by the fact that it is the queen and not have to be looked by any man.

http://www.cafemom.com/group/97/forums/read/17825574/Vienna_King_Puts_the_Queen_in_A_Complete_Face_Veil

Alhamdulillah! I am currently taking Arabic and just completed a basic beginner's level course(pronouns and nouns and other basic stuff). And even once i complete insha Allah advanced level arabic I am still not qualified to translate the qur'an, as it is not sufficient!

tonmoy.dhaka
February 20, 2017, 11:08 PM
^^ If the interpretation you provided is the absolute truth than this again shows that there are room for reformation in Islam.
Of-course calling for reformation probably is blasphemy to most and therein lies the problem. I do not understand the logic behind practising a lifestyle followed by tribal people 1400 years ago and incorporate that into modern society.

Jadukor
February 20, 2017, 11:21 PM
One good example is to look at Afghanistan of the 1950s-1960s before the Afghan war and all the Taliban crap and how women used to dress over there. That was a time of free afghan societies before the rise of islamic fundamentalism. If given a choice i am sure all Afghan women would want to travel back to that era.

The first picture of medical students in Kabul seems unbelievable in current context
https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2013/07/afghanistan-in-the-1950s-and-60s/100544/

Zeeshan
February 20, 2017, 11:48 PM
I think we actually agree more than disagree and there are many overlaps. Here are three levels where each rises by a degree re: controversy.

Level 1: I think we all agree woman have the right to wear what they want. In fact, I do agree as idumb pointed out first, that the whole idea of debating women's right to wear whatever she wants by bunch of males in an all male dominated forum is risible. NOT riseable, whatever that means.

Level 2: Now comes Jadukor's point and the topic slightly gets more subtle. What he did present cannot be denied. In many Middle Eastern Countries women are subjugated and forced to adapt to whims of Islamic male priests and clerics.

Level 3: Now unfortunately some women do read the previous fact as being "empowering", this is where we all start to getting into discordance. The thing is while women argues, and rightfully so, that wearing niqab can be empowering, but one can also counterargue they are just sourgraping a delicious Sizzler (Don't bag on Sizzler, ride till I die) steak must be gross and yuck when the real fact is it is just haram for many hardcore religious followers. Sure if you are women and believe that wearing burqaa or purdah or niqab can be empowering, sure you are privy to do so, but don't for a moment have us non-Muslims guys (humans Homo sapiens) believe for a moment that you are not trying to justify your red blooded ties to a fervent religious ideology by playing the 'empowering-card'. Then by that account, you cannot put on an air of judgmental authority and shame, and guilt those who feel 'empowering' by being nude and naked. It can sway either way.

Level 4: Who cares! Strictly as a guy, as long the dress is shapely heck it is all empowering for me. Have you seen some of the Arab ladies, man, dayummmmmm..... I got a great link; inbox me. This includes the Brazilian Arab Instagram sensation.

icricket
February 21, 2017, 01:01 AM
You dont have to impose it on state level, you can impose it on your kids inside your home.

How many women do you think choose it for themselves and how many do you think has been indoctrinated about it in home 24/7? No one chooses to be oppressed. No one decides to walk on the street with face all covered, fingers covered in 40 degrees heat.
People still do because that is how they are brought up. Yes it is their choice but a choice that was forced onto them as a kid and the society.


I have a question for you, tonmoy? How did your family dressed you when you were younger (in Bangladesh?) and how do you dress yourself now as an adult in Bangladesh (?), and now in Canada?

DinRaat.
February 21, 2017, 01:08 AM
Brother, Have you read Surah Ahzab( chapter 33, verse 59) regarding the verse, "O Prophet(SalAllahu A'laihe wasallam) tell your wives, your daughters and the believing women....."

http://www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php?sura=33&verse=59

However, there is room for Islamic scholarly interpretation of this verse. And the fact that the verse ends with Allah is Most Forgiving, Most Merciful. should give people a lot of hope. :)

Niqaab is of a higher status. In order to get to the higher levels of paradise, greater sacrifice(Jihaad) is required. Even few non muslims wore the face veil(back in the day when sexual promiscuity was the exception, not the norm)

http://www.andrewcusack.com/karlfjdeath1.jpg



http://www.cafemom.com/group/97/forums/read/17825574/Vienna_King_Puts_the_Queen_in_A_Complete_Face_Veil

Alhamdulillah! I am currently taking Arabic and just completed a basic beginner's level course(pronouns and nouns and other basic stuff). And even once i complete insha Allah advanced level arabic I am still not qualified to translate the qur'an, as it is not sufficient!

Whatever you say there is no mention of the burqa in the quran, and i completely agree with Tonmoy, the idea of the burqa was brought down by Arab men , who saw women as more of an item, then as a human being

Jadukor
February 21, 2017, 03:18 AM
I have a question for you, tonmoy? How did your family dressed you when you were younger (in Bangladesh?) and how do you dress yourself now as an adult in Bangladesh (?), and now in Canada?

That is going very personal. What is your point?

adamnsu
February 21, 2017, 10:56 AM
Some of you guys should put a Burqa on your comments :facepalm:

kalpurush
February 21, 2017, 11:42 AM
Some of you guys should put a Burqa on your comments :facepalm:

Now we are showing that we believe in free speech!

adamnsu
February 21, 2017, 12:22 PM
Now we are showing that we believe in free speech!

That was showing dissent of people abusing their freedom to use speech

mufi_02
February 21, 2017, 02:04 PM
I don't think you can read if thats what you got out of it.

Yeah amaro tai mone hoy. Ekta shorborno boi theke amader ektu shikhiye diyen dada :D

On topic -

https://youtube.com/watch?v=77rU1IT_h90

Subtlety guys as zee said. Subtlety!

simon
February 21, 2017, 03:13 PM
Palai baba ๐Ÿ˜ฐ

bujhee kom
February 21, 2017, 03:42 PM
Woow...Look at my Lady Gaga ...
She looking fine in Burqa and singing and dancing in Burqa...
Good on my Lady Gaga...I ordered my own burqa yesterday from Amazon!

http://i58.tinypic.com/2r5xkrb.jpg

http://oceandrivepr.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2012/09/article-0-150D732C000005DC-773_634x707.jpg

roman
February 21, 2017, 04:12 PM
Her family members might have forced her to wear that. She is oppressed. She needs freedom. We know better what she should wear and what she should not. Let's label her family as taleban supporter who are following 1400 years old outdated rituals.

tonmoy.dhaka
February 21, 2017, 04:18 PM
Find an example of one Odd-ball and use it to justify some awful practice.

There is hardly any difference between trump supporters and us.

adamnsu
February 21, 2017, 04:31 PM
Her family members might have forced her to wear that. She is oppressed. She needs freedom. We know better what she should wear and what she should not. Let's label her family as taleban supporter who are following 1400 years old outdated rituals.

Lmao Ha ha ha ๐Ÿ˜€

bujhee kom
February 21, 2017, 04:33 PM
When I was a kid I had nightmares about black Burqa....when my cousins and I used to run around and cause massive havoc in and around the house, and my aunts could not control us, they used to say, "Oi Kala Burqa wali lady ailo Old Dhaka theika...dhorlo tumader...!" Within a second we used to run and hide under the bed....

Kala Burqa aisa baccha kaccha dhoira lia jabey!

SportingBD
February 21, 2017, 04:35 PM
Wow. just now this Syrian scholar tweeted this, I thought I share it to you guys..

most of us can't answer... and this tweet by the scholar sort of summarises it nicely:)

"Our crisis in the Muslim World is not economic, it is intellectual"

https://twitter.com/Shaykhabulhuda

Jadukor
February 21, 2017, 11:42 PM
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/02/21/french-presidential-candidate-le-pen-refuses-headscarf-to-meet-lebanons-mufti.html

Something relevant to the discussion. Le Pen refused to wear a headscarf prior to the meeting and eventually cancelled the meeting.

al Furqaan
February 22, 2017, 02:51 AM
So a show of hands for those who support nudism...I hear Hedonism in Jamaica is the place to be...watch some cricket, scope out the naked wives on the beach...

Burqa vs full nudity...its all arbitrary. Who decides what is acceptable to cover or uncover. If face is fine, who says arms are not? If legs, why not genitals? Adam and Eve were butt naked in heaven weren't they? So there is nothing i herently evil, dirty, or sinful in nakedness.

But hijab bashing is a convenient excuse for islamophobia these days.

DinRaat.
February 22, 2017, 03:12 AM
This debate is about the burqa, not the headscarf, the burqa is not compulsory, thus does not need to be worn as it in my own opinion, is a symbol of oppression itself, I`d like to see how you guys feel when you walk around NY,London Tube, wearing a full black veil covering you from head to toe, reinforced by uneducated clerics and mullahs, in the edges of the world

Miraz
February 22, 2017, 04:15 AM
This debate is about the burqa, not the headscarf, the burqa is not compulsory, thus does not need to be worn as it in my own opinion, is a symbol of oppression itself, I`d like to see how you guys feel when you walk around NY,London Tube, wearing a full black veil covering you from head to toe, reinforced by uneducated clerics and mullahs, in the edges of the world

DinRaat, you may not like the Burqa, but a person has the right to dress whichever way he or she feels appropriate. Your perception that these women are influenced by uneducated Mullahs is an insult to their intelligence and disrespectful.

DinRaat.
February 22, 2017, 04:19 AM
DinRaat, you may not like the Burqa, but a person has the right to dress whichever way he or she feels appropriate. Your perception that these women are influenced by uneducated Mullahs is an insult to their intelligence and disrespectful.

Yes, I do support the idea of choice, but feel it is unnecessary to be wearing the burqa at all in this day and age. No wonder why it is already banned in so many countries, its a sign of oppression, not a sign of religious sanctity

Miraz
February 22, 2017, 04:30 AM
Yes, I do support the idea of choice, but feel it is unnecessary to be wearing the burqa at all in this day and age. No wonder why it is already banned in so many countries, its a sign of oppression, not a sign of religious sanctity

Again you are preoccupied with what you feel necessary or appropriate and deciding dress code for others who can decide for themselves as adults. Banning a particular dress is a sign of oppression and we conveniently argue that it is liberating. Taking away choices cannot be liberating.

DinRaat.
February 22, 2017, 04:34 AM
Again you are preoccupied with what you feel necessary or appropriate and deciding dress code for others who can decide for themselves as adults. Banning a particular dress is a sign of oppression and we conveniently argue that it is liberating. Taking away choices cannot be liberating.

The Burqa should definetely be banned, it is the perfect tool for terrorists to hide bombs, and blame it on the media when they are searched

DinRaat.
February 22, 2017, 04:39 AM
Statistically speaking
Countries where the Burqa is commonly worn also have higher rates of domestic violence. In Afghanistan 87 percent of women reported experiencing domestic violence. In Pakistan that number goes as high as 90 percent. Domestic violence is also a major problem in Saudi Arabia.

Miraz
February 22, 2017, 04:39 AM
The Burqa should definetely be banned, it is the perfect tool for terrorists to hide bombs, and blame it on the media when they are searched

Burqa is no better in hiding bombs than long overcoats routinely worn in Western countries. Should overcoats be banned too?

DinRaat.
February 22, 2017, 04:42 AM
There is no place in the Qur'an that says for women to wear the full-face burwa/niqab. They are misogynistic items of clothing designed and enforced by psychoticly bigoted men in Saudi Arabia. It legitimises rape- the 'logic' is that when faces are always covered, men (that being Muslim men) can't help but get so aroused that they rape the woman not wearing the face cover, and it is therefore the woman's fault. Is this something you want in a civilised society? It's not in any way religious, but even if it was, I think we all know if a Christian wanted to wear something equally bigoted and stupid, everyone would say no and if a Jew wanted to, a bunch of lefty politically correct students would probably bomb a Synagogue.

Miraz
February 22, 2017, 04:52 AM
No need to bring religion here. I am talking about the ability of individuals to make their own decisions about what they prefer to wear.

DinRaat.
February 22, 2017, 04:56 AM
No need to bring religion here. I am talking about the ability of individuals to make their own decisions about what they prefer to wear.

I highly doubt, women would "Choose" to wear something that negates human rights, and oppresses there freedom of speech.

They are either forced to, or brainwashed to believe that the burqa will help them against sins or put them in a esteemed divine rank

Miraz
February 22, 2017, 05:01 AM
I highly doubt, women would "Choose" to wear something that negates human rights, and oppresses there freedom of speech.

They are either forced to, or brainwashed to believe that the burqa will help them against sins or put them in a esteemed divine rank

You can make the same argument that women are forced to short, revealing dresses to make them look attractive. There have been many employment tribunals in the U.K. about the sexist dress codes. Do you want to ban them too?

Miraz
February 22, 2017, 05:01 AM
The problem is the male dominance who would like to decide for women.

SportingBD
February 22, 2017, 05:18 AM
Very interesting discussion. What do you guys think of women feeling forced to wear high hills to work or foundation/make up to look beautiful? There was a report published in BBC women complaining, yet most corporate organisations make it seem the norm. Is that a form of oppression? Objectifying a women? How they should look? What they should wear? And yes they have no choice, as if they don't obey they most likely will be sacked? Haven't seen anyone open a thread on that? Or it's only a Muslim thing?

tonmoy.dhaka
February 22, 2017, 09:10 AM
The problem is the male dominance who would like to decide for women.

Burqa like some other things from the 6th century, is not compatible with the modern society. I am sure many would also feel uncomfortable if men starts walking in the street with Ski-masks.

Having the choice is great, but having the option to hide your identity while in public is also a security risk. Not to mention, on the other end of the spectrum indecent exposure is also a crime.

It is surprising that many here are trying to use "Choice" as an excuse when most religious scholars are completely opposed to the women's right to choose (abortion, dresses , common law partner etc) . The progressive people on the other hand would always fight for women's right to choose as long as her choice does not cause harm or pose a risk. Accept it or not "Burqa" will always be a symbol of Oppression on women because how religious scholars used it as a mean to subjugate women in Iran, Afghanistan and Saudi. It will never be a symbol of "free expression".

Finally, there will always be exceptions to the rule! It is funny how some are desperately using Lady Gaga of all people to prove their point. Guess what I can also show you burqa clad women head banging on a trash metal tune, that does not prove anything.

Shingara
February 22, 2017, 09:16 AM
DinRaat. = Zeeshan ??

tonmoy.dhaka
February 22, 2017, 09:23 AM
Very interesting discussion. What do you guys think of women feeling forced to wear high hills to work or foundation/make up to look beautiful? There was a report published in BBC women complaining, yet most corporate organisations make it seem the norm. Is that a form of oppression? Objectifying a women? How they should look? What they should wear? And yes they have no choice, as if they don't obey they most likely will be sacked? Haven't seen anyone open a thread on that? Or it's only a Muslim thing?

Two wrongs do not make it a right!!
And please stop playing the "Muslim Victim" card. Please open a thread and when you complain about the female harassment in workplace (Which is a REAL problem and needs discussion), please also make sure to point out the proportion of female workforce in your "Muslim dominated societies".

mufi_02
February 22, 2017, 09:49 AM
Burqa like some other things from the 6th century, is not compatible with the modern society. I am sure many would also feel uncomfortable if men starts walking in the street with Ski-masks.

Having the choice is great, but having the option to hide your identity while in public is also a security risk. Not to mention, on the other end of the spectrum indecent exposure is also a crime.

It is surprising that many here are trying to use "Choice" as an excuse when most religious scholars are completely opposed to the women's right to choose (abortion, dresses , common law partner etc) . The progressive people on the other hand would always fight for women's right to choose as long as her choice does not cause harm or pose a risk. Accept it or not "Burqa" will always be a symbol of Oppression on women because how religious scholars used it as a mean to subjugate women in Iran, Afghanistan and Saudi. It will never be a symbol of "free expression".

Finally, there will always be exceptions to the rule! It is funny how some are desperately using Lady Gaga of all people to prove their point. Guess what I can also show you burqa clad women head banging on a trash metal tune, that does not prove anything.

My mother has been wearing burqa for as long as I can remember. I think she did very well professionally and family wise and raised me and my siblings after my father passed away. In fact my father or her father never even forced her and now they all passed away and I think they are not forcing her from grave either.

I don't need to look at some surveys. can only look at my own mother. she is doing very well in this 21st century.

tonmoy.dhaka
February 22, 2017, 10:02 AM
My mother has been wearing burqa for as long as I can remember. I think she did very well professionally and family wise and raised me and my siblings after my father passed away. In fact my father or her father never even forced her and now they all passed away and I think they are not forcing her from grave either.

I don't need to look at some surveys. can only look at my own mother. she is doing very well in this 21st century.

My grandmother married at the age of 13-15 (age disputed), she raised 8 kids including my father and did an awesome job at it.
I admire my grandmother just like I also admire your mother (working women). However I will still never marry my daughter at such an early age under any circumstances.
So long discussion short, we live in a society where many things are different now. We need to adapt to these changes. We need to empower women against religious bigots. Remember your mother might have never been forced to wear burqa however she lived in a society where guys like "Allama Shafi" implied that all garment workers are "whores". (let me know if you need proof of that).

SportingBD
February 22, 2017, 10:06 AM
Two wrongs do not make it a right!!
And please stop playing the "Muslim Victim" card. Please open a thread and when you complain about the female harassment in workplace (Which is a REAL problem and needs discussion), please also make sure to point out the proportion of female workforce in your "Muslim dominated societies".

Unfortunately I can't respond to you as I have some conditions to follow. Otherwise, I would have responded.

SportingBD
February 22, 2017, 10:16 AM
My sisters, cousin sisters etc wear the Burqa by choice, I have many cousins who don't wear the burqa, and their parents are fine with it. It is a choice they make themselves. Talking from my own family and cousins perspective, they have decided to follow the teaching of prophet Muhammad (PBUH). At the same time, some of my other cousins don't follow Islam as my family or some cousins do, hence they don't wear the burqa, nor do we look at them badly or disrespect their choice, as everyone is held accountable for their own action and we are no one to judge them. I live here in U.K., and must say my sisters have never complained about others disrespecting them for wearing the burqa, the only time the people look at them is when a attack has happened recently, and the next day or two they have to go work.. other than that, the people here in U.K. are very respectful.

tonmoy.dhaka
February 22, 2017, 10:29 AM
@SportingBD @Mufi
I want to clarify something
I want to sincerely apologize if I came across as someone who believes every women who wears Burqa is Oppressed. None do it by choice.
I want to state that I do not believe everyone wears burqa by force, a lot of these women chose this.

I am still against the attire. I still think it is a sign of oppression and I still oppose the idea of wearing it for reasons already stated.

mufi_02
February 22, 2017, 10:29 AM
My grandmother married at the age of 13-15 (age disputed), she raised 8 kids including my father and did an awesome job at it.
I admire my grandmother just like I also admire your mother (working women). However I will still never marry my daughter at such an early age under any circumstances.
So long discussion short, we live in a society where many things are different now. We need to adapt to these changes. We need to empower women against religious bigots. Remember your mother might have never been forced to wear burqa however she lived in a society where guys like "Allama Shafi" implied that all garment workers are "whores". (let me know if you need proof of that).

I don't know or even care about what Shafi says.

anyway, we all have our opinions. This is the choice of women after all. I can only comment on lungi and genji.

al Furqaan
February 22, 2017, 01:33 PM
Think about it, the best looking women of all time Cindy Crawford, Kate Upton, Lisa Ann...none lf them wore burqas.

I think we all agree that women look best naked. Unless they are moti moti. Heavyset mohilader burqa pora uchit.

This should please everyone cuz who doesn't like naked women?

Antora
February 22, 2017, 07:18 PM
I had to come out of hibernation and put in my two cents in an interesting discussion.

My opinion on the Burqa varies and often I feel as though I'm very confused about this clothing.

I see the Burqa as more than religion or culture. The Burqa is an attire holding symbols from oppression to empowerment to weapons of resistance and everything in between. Ultimately, if it is her choice, then who am I to say it's wrong? If it is forced upon, it is a symbol of oppression and that can not be supported. However, women throughout history and to this day have worn the Burqa, Niqab and Hijab as resistance to colonialism, as a political statement. Here, it is used as empowerment and as their way for fighting against oppression. So, for me, whether I like the Burqa or not is purely contextual.

I have family members in Bangladesh who wear the Burqa when they're out and about. I've asked my phupees/chachis why they do so (out of interest) and their answers have ranged from avoiding dust to feeling safer walking down streets. The latter explanation I have a problem with. I'm very uncomfortable with the religious interpretation casting women as sinners and therefore their beauty needs to be covered (which is often used as the predominant justification for Burqa). I am uncomfortable with the systematic conditioning of young girls/women who are made to believe the Burqa is protection (when we know that women who wear Burqas also get raped/kidnapped-you name it.) and therefore are conditioned to choose to wear it. I am extremely uncomfortable with the idea of women having to dress a certain way to feel safe, rather than society holding men accountable for making women feel unsafe.

shoibboshach
February 22, 2017, 09:17 PM
Burqa like some other things from the 6th century, is not compatible with the modern society.


That's a very interesting assertion. What is the definition of "modern society"? Who defined it? On what basis (the inclusions and preclusions) this definition was arrived at? Finally, who decides what is compatible or what is not? Perhaps, it is all done just arbitrarily according to ones fancy!

Is breathing air compatible in a post modern era?

Zeeshan
February 22, 2017, 09:26 PM
When I was a kid I had nightmares about black Burqa....when my cousins and I used to run around and cause massive havoc in and around the house, and my aunts could not control us, they used to say, "Oi Kala Burqa wali lady ailo Old Dhaka theika...dhorlo tumader...!" Within a second we used to run and hide under the bed....

Kala Burqa aisa baccha kaccha dhoira lia jabey!

What he said. ^^

tonmoy.dhaka
February 22, 2017, 09:55 PM
I had to come out of hibernation and put in my two cents in an interesting discussion.

My opinion on the Burqa varies and often I feel as though I'm very confused about this clothing.

I see the Burqa as more than religion or culture. The Burqa is an attire holding symbols from oppression to empowerment to weapons of resistance and everything in between. Ultimately, if it is her choice, then who am I to say it's wrong? If it is forced upon, it is a symbol of oppression and that can not be supported. However, women throughout history and to this day have worn the Burqa, Niqab and Hijab as resistance to colonialism, as a political statement. Here, it is used as empowerment and as their way for fighting against oppression. So, for me, whether I like the Burqa or not is purely contextual.

I have family members in Bangladesh who wear the Burqa when they're out and about. I've asked my phupees/chachis why they do so (out of interest) and their answers have ranged from avoiding dust to feeling safer walking down streets. The latter explanation I have a problem with. I'm very uncomfortable with the religious interpretation casting women as sinners and therefore their beauty needs to be covered (which is often used as the predominant justification for Burqa). I am uncomfortable with the systematic conditioning of young girls/women who are made to believe the Burqa is protection (when we know that women who wear Burqas also get raped/kidnapped-you name it.) and therefore are conditioned to choose to wear it. I am extremely uncomfortable with the idea of women having to dress a certain way to feel safe, rather than society holding men accountable for making women feel unsafe.

Brilliant post.. could not have said it better.

al Furqaan
February 22, 2017, 10:00 PM
That's a very interesting assertion. What is the definition of "modern society"? Who defined it? On what basis (the inclusions and preclusions) this definition was arrived at? Finally, who decides what is compatible or what is not? Perhaps, it is all done just arbitrarily according to ones fancy!

Is breathing air compatible in a post modern era?

Modern = current date and time.

tonmoy.dhaka
February 22, 2017, 10:31 PM
That's a very interesting assertion. What is the definition of "modern society"? Who defined it? On what basis (the inclusions and preclusions) this definition was arrived at? Finally, who decides what is compatible or what is not? Perhaps, it is all done just arbitrarily according to ones fancy!

Is breathing air compatible in a post modern era?

Are you being serious??

Societies evolve. People learn and better themselves. Someone who is destined to follow the lifestyle of the 6th century Arabs might not realize it unfortunately.

just few examples:
Child marriage was common and acceptable once... not anymore and for good reason (let me know if you think otherwise)

Developed advanced societies do not punish people for their sexual orientation. In Developed western society there will never be another genius like Alan Turing who would have to suffer indignity and early demise.

In modern society, people cannot make stupid claims like a geocentric model of Solar system or things like earth was created in six days (when time and space is a single entity).

And I can go on and on and on...

Rifat
February 22, 2017, 10:45 PM
I had to come out of hibernation and put in my two cents in an interesting discussion.

My opinion on the Burqa varies and often I feel as though I'm very confused about this clothing.

I see the Burqa as more than religion or culture. The Burqa is an attire holding symbols from oppression to empowerment to weapons of resistance and everything in between. Ultimately, if it is her choice, then who am I to say it's wrong? If it is forced upon, it is a symbol of oppression and that can not be supported. However, women throughout history and to this day have worn the Burqa, Niqab and Hijab as resistance to colonialism, as a political statement. Here, it is used as empowerment and as their way for fighting against oppression. So, for me, whether I like the Burqa or not is purely contextual.

I have family members in Bangladesh who wear the Burqa when they're out and about. I've asked my phupees/chachis why they do so (out of interest) and their answers have ranged from avoiding dust to feeling safer walking down streets. The latter explanation I have a problem with. I'm very uncomfortable with the religious interpretation casting women as sinners and therefore their beauty needs to be covered (which is often used as the predominant justification for Burqa). I am uncomfortable with the systematic conditioning of young girls/women who are made to believe the Burqa is protection (when we know that women who wear Burqas also get raped/kidnapped-you name it.) and therefore are conditioned to choose to wear it. I am extremely uncomfortable with the idea of women having to dress a certain way to feel safe, rather than society holding men accountable for making women feel unsafe.


Nice to see you back in this forum, Antora :).

It's always refreshing to hear about these issues coming from an actual women. May I add, have you heard of people that wear the burqa as an act of obedience to GOD, as an act to be closer to emulating the noble Prophet's wives and daughters and righteousness? I think a lot of people are missing the point here on why it is done by muslim women. Doing it for GOD(hijab, burqa) you name it with the correct intention will be rewarded greatly by Allah in this life and the hereafter.


we often forget, even religious men and women are human beings and have desires and temptations just like any normal human being does. but cultural practices forbids us to openly talk or even mention or dare i say acknowledge such issues in public. That's why overcoming your desires and being obedient to Allah is even more so impressive because you made that choice, you made that sacrifice to please GOD. It makes it even more beautiful. as opposed to when someone is forced to do it, the beauty of it goes away.

Islam acknowledges human conditions and provides a framework for cultivating your nature through the institution of family. Because parents and many muslim majority cultural society does not talk about or acknowledge such issues what happens that kids get their sex education from elsewhere and they end up on the opposite spectrum of things because a healthy alternative was not provided to them. This i think is how some people back home used religion(Islam) as a tool to oppress people.

I really like what you said as underlined. I definitely agree that we as men need to hold ourselves accountable for what we do and what we say before playing the blame game or finger pointing at women.

G-man
February 22, 2017, 10:54 PM
It's all relative. Current society has evolved compared to the the past, but in a lot of history has repeated itself countless times and nothing has changed.

child marriages still happens, cannibalism still happens and pirates are still hijacking ships.

You think we're advanced now, but fast forward a hundred years and we're pretty ancient. the romans used to fights to death, these days they do it in a ring- just not to death.

yeah once upon a time we though the earth was flat and centre of universe, and science has come a long way, but by no means are we advanced enough to say we know everything and won't progress.

my point is it's all relative. i'm sure someone at some point in history thought they were of a "modern society"...how quickly that changed.


Are you being serious??

Societies evolve. People learn and better themselves. Someone who is destined to follow the lifestyle of the 6th century Arabs might not realize it unfortunately.

just few examples:
Child marriage was common and acceptable once... not anymore and for good reason (let me know if you think otherwise)

Developed advanced societies do not punish people for their sexual orientation. In Developed western society there will never be another genius like Alan Turing who would have to suffer indignity and early demise.

In modern society, people cannot make stupid claims like a geocentric model of Solar system or things like earth was created in six days (when time and space is a single entity).

And I can go on and on and on...

Rifat
February 22, 2017, 11:04 PM
Society has advanced in terms of scientific thought and technological advancement. However, humankind at an emotional level(such as desire for vengeance, desire for material wealth only, selfishness, power etc) at a general level still remained the same. According to Qur'an, there are two types of Shaytaan(Devil) Shaytaan al-jinni(Shaytaaan from the jinn) and Shaytaan al ins(shaytaan from mankind).let me quote a rap from p.diddy, to explain about JinnKind in laymen terms: "birds eye, i got a clear view, you can't see me but i can see you" ;) :D

in many ways, mankind advanced but in a lot of other ways, mankind actually regressed(you heard it right)! Budhist killing Muslims(Myanmar)...state sponsored terrorism, stealing people's hard earned money through unfair taxations and interest rates, i can go on and on and on and on. We live in the ultimate age of deception where more often than not a truthful person is believed to be a liar and a liar is believed to be trustworthy. we are truly living in the end of times. There is very very little time left. the intensity of the trials increase and time shortens where a year feels like a day and a day feels like a moment. the trials are shown to us like a mat (phone screen/TV screen/desktop computer screen/satellite)

shoibboshach
February 22, 2017, 11:09 PM
I had to come out of hibernation and put in my two cents in an interesting discussion.

My opinion on the Burqa varies and often I feel as though I'm very confused about this clothing.

I see the Burqa as more than religion or culture. The Burqa is an attire holding symbols from oppression to empowerment to weapons of resistance and everything in between. Ultimately, if it is her choice, then who am I to say it's wrong? If it is forced upon, it is a symbol of oppression and that can not be supported. However, women throughout history and to this day have worn the Burqa, Niqab and Hijab as resistance to colonialism, as a political statement. Here, it is used as empowerment and as their way for fighting against oppression. So, for me, whether I like the Burqa or not is purely contextual.

I have family members in Bangladesh who wear the Burqa when they're out and about. I've asked my phupees/chachis why they do so (out of interest) and their answers have ranged from avoiding dust to feeling safer walking down streets. The latter explanation I have a problem with. I'm very uncomfortable with the religious interpretation casting women as sinners and therefore their beauty needs to be covered (which is often used as the predominant justification for Burqa). I am uncomfortable with the systematic conditioning of young girls/women who are made to believe the Burqa is protection (when we know that women who wear Burqas also get raped/kidnapped-you name it.) and therefore are conditioned to choose to wear it. I am extremely uncomfortable with the idea of women having to dress a certain way to feel safe, rather than society holding men accountable for making women feel unsafe.

Islam, certainly, does not hold women as sinners! In fact, as a general rule, it does not hold anyone to be exclusively sinner/s. Those who come up with these kind of absurd and often misogynistic "interpretation" should be rounded up and flogged at a public square. A little harsh - you may protest. Actually, those who approve and accept these "interpretation" should also be treated the same because of their negligence and ignorance of their faith. They are also part of the problem who empower and give credence to those dangerous idiots.

Burqa or an Abaya is a garment or conduct of modesty. NOT a protection against molestation. If a young women decides to take a walk at midnight through a dark alley of a rough neighbourhood, you will find most often, a Burqa will not come to her rescue from any potential harm or abuse. Of course, unless, she is a superwoman and Burqa her cape. Don't forget most of the thugs are not philosophers nor saints and this world has never been an utopia. Accept reality, use commonsense and be safe. I try my best to avoid most alleyways at any time of the day/night. Prevention is better than cure. Many people quite erroneously associate Burqa as a protection against rape or molestation. The primary objectives of an Abaya or a Burqa or a Hijab are promotion of modesty, piety, elimination or minimization of sexual tension at public/work domain, productivity, peace and harmony, promotion of the spirit, non-objectification of women, protection of family, women and children and general welfare of both men and women and society. Traditionally, muslim men also used to were long and loose garments and in some places they still do.

You mentioned something about men creating a safe environment for women. I say charity begins at home. Women should work out what is good or harmful for them. They should not always dance to the tunes of those militant feminists with hidden agendas or those "white, middle aged, dead" sociologists. We can all clearly see how many women and young girls (e.g pop culture) are being so grotesquely exploited and abased ( and the dire consequences on family and society) and all in the name of modernity, freedom, liberation and equality. Slogans and the reality are not the same. Reality and appearance are not the same. We are living through an age of massive deception. May God protect us from the great fitnah (tribulation) of Dajjal.

Rifat
February 22, 2017, 11:10 PM
This thread proves the ultimate point: outside of cricket: BC is dead without spicy islamic/anti-islamic debates ;). I haven't made a "religious post" in a while. probably because I would argue that during my college days, I was a lot more closer to GOD than now...but Alhamdulillah I am back :D!

Zeeshan
February 22, 2017, 11:39 PM
Congratulations Dinraat, Your thread is on third page. First to be so in the last 10 months!

Jadukor
February 23, 2017, 01:01 AM
let me quote a rap from p.diddy, to explain about JinnKind in laymen terms: "birds eye, i got a clear view, you can't see me but i can see you" ;) :D


Hahaha Rifat quoting puff daddy... now i have seen everything there is to see in BC:lol:

shoibboshach
February 23, 2017, 01:52 AM
Are you being serious??

Societies evolve. People learn and better themselves. Someone who is destined to follow the lifestyle of the 6th century Arabs might not realize it unfortunately.

just few examples:
Child marriage was common and acceptable once... not anymore and for good reason (let me know if you think otherwise)

Developed advanced societies do not punish people for their sexual orientation. In Developed western society there will never be another genius like Alan Turing who would have to suffer indignity and early demise.

In modern society, people cannot make stupid claims like a geocentric model of Solar system or things like earth was created in six days (when time and space is a single entity).

And I can go on and on and on...

Please stop right there and be gentle to yourself.

Your obvious resentment/dislike/hatred for the Arabs (a race) and callous disregard for human history ("6th" century) is a resounding testimony against your non-evolution as a human being -if you insist we have evolved for better. We associate racism with devolution not evolution in a non Darwinian sense. Racism is pure ignorance. On the other hand, you absolutely worship developed western society. Couldn't possibly be more of a partisan soul than that! You think -like all other advanced socities- western society, perchance, will not decline or self destruct?? Did Rome not fall? or the Osmanli? Do you not see the sun rising in the East again? Can you not imagine or understand that it has always been cyclical -the rise and fall?

Who has dropped atom bombs on two major cities of the world?
Who has napalmed villages after villages?
Who has used white phosphorus on defenceless and innocent civilians?
Who continues to occupy, loot, rape and plunder other peoples land and resources?

Millions of dead Iraqis, Afgans, Bosnians, Serbians, Rawandans and many others. NOT in the 6th century but THIS century!!!

Evolved?? Sexual orientation?? I heard about the Bible thumper and now witnessing the thumper of an other kind...

In modern society people can make enlightened claim that formula milk is better than mothers milk??

Or that the Universe is contracting (pre-Hubble)?

Do you not see science has always been relative and is usually built on the past?

Perhaps, you are just being deliberately obtuse.

Yankees
February 23, 2017, 02:09 AM
Please stop right there and be gentle to yourself.

Your obvious resentment/dislike/hatred for the Arabs (a race) and callous disregard for human history ("6th" century) is a resounding testimony against your non-evolution as a human being -if you insist we have evolved for better. We associate racism with devolution not evolution in a non Darwinian sense. Racism is pure ignorance. On the other hand, you absolutely worship developed western society. Couldn't possibly be more of a partisan soul than that! You think -like all other advanced socities- western society, perchance, will not decline or self destruct?? Did Rome not fall? or the Osmanli? Do you not see the sun rising in the East again? Can you not imagine or understand that it has always been cyclical -the rise and fall?

Who has dropped atom bombs on two major cities of the world?
Who has napalmed villages after villages?
Who has used white phosphorus on defenceless and innocent civilians?
Who continues to occupy, loot, rape and plunder other peoples land and resources?

Millions of dead Iraqis, Afgans, Bosnians, Serbians, Rawandans and many others. NOT in the 6th century but THIS century!!!

Evolved?? Sexual orientation?? I heard about the Bible thumper and now witnessing the thumper of an other kind...

In modern society people can make enlightened claim that formula milk is better than mothers milk??

Or that the Universe is contracting (pre-Hubble)?

Do you not see science has always been relative and is usually built on the past?

Perhaps, you are just being deliberately obtuse.

Wow so many words yet so little substance.

DinRaat.
February 23, 2017, 02:39 AM
Please stop right there and be gentle to yourself.

Your obvious resentment/dislike/hatred for the Arabs (a race) and callous disregard for human history ("6th" century) is a resounding testimony against your non-evolution as a human being -if you insist we have evolved for better. We associate racism with devolution not evolution in a non Darwinian sense. Racism is pure ignorance. On the other hand, you absolutely worship developed western society. Couldn't possibly be more of a partisan soul than that! You think -like all other advanced socities- western society, perchance, will not decline or self destruct?? Did Rome not fall? or the Osmanli? Do you not see the sun rising in the East again? Can you not imagine or understand that it has always been cyclical -the rise and fall?

Who has dropped atom bombs on two major cities of the world?
Who has napalmed villages after villages?
Who has used white phosphorus on defenceless and innocent civilians?
Who continues to occupy, loot, rape and plunder other peoples land and resources?

Millions of dead Iraqis, Afgans, Bosnians, Serbians, Rawandans and many others. NOT in the 6th century but THIS century!!!

Evolved?? Sexual orientation?? I heard about the Bible thumper and now witnessing the thumper of an other kind...

In modern society people can make enlightened claim that formula milk is better than mothers milk??

Or that the Universe is contracting (pre-Hubble)?

Do you not see science has always been relative and is usually built on the past?

Perhaps, you are just being deliberately obtuse.

Arabs by general are such archaic, people we cannot disregard this, they still practice such ancient traditions, Arabs have done their fair share of heinous deeds against humanity,ISIS themselves have murdered millions of non-Muslims as a result of them claiming to preach Islam.

Who bombed the World Trade Center and killed thousands of innocents
Who attacked the pentagon and killed many innocent civilians in the name of Allah
Who killed millions of ethnic minorities in the middle east and Eastern Africa.

Do you know why I read the quran in English, because it is far better to read something and understand it compared to reading it in a tongue that I do not even understand, the entire middle east is backwards thinking, why do you think they are laughed at, because there is no sense of empowerment in the Muslim world, we are not united at all. The world has developed alot from the 6th century to the 21st century, yet arabs are still centuries behind, killing people for no obvious reasons, chopping peoples hands off for committing petty crimes, beheading people in front of a town square, bashing, stoning innocent people.....If thats not backwards thinking, archaic I don`t know what is

brockley
February 23, 2017, 02:52 AM
As I said before security first.
Personally it doesn't bother me.
If a policeman asks to see a woman's face is the same in a photograph I agree,in fact we had a court case in Australia over it.The police won the court case.

shoibboshach
February 23, 2017, 08:17 AM
Burqa like some other things from the 6th century, is not compatible with the modern society. I am sure many would also feel uncomfortable if men starts walking in the street with Ski-masks.

Having the choice is great, but having the option to hide your identity while in public is also a security risk. Not to mention, on the other end of the spectrum indecent exposure is also a crime.

It is surprising that many here are trying to use "Choice" as an excuse when most religious scholars are completely opposed to the women's right to choose (abortion, dresses , common law partner etc) . The progressive people on the other hand would always fight for women's right to choose as long as her choice does not cause harm or pose a risk. Accept it or not "Burqa" will always be a symbol of Oppression on women because how religious scholars used it as a mean to subjugate women in Iran, Afghanistan and Saudi. It will never be a symbol of "free expression".

Finally, there will always be exceptions to the rule! It is funny how some are desperately using Lady Gaga of all people to prove their point. Guess what I can also show you burqa clad women head banging on a trash metal tune, that does not prove anything.


It is amazingly mind boggling how similar you and the other poster DinRaat sound to O'Riely on Fox network. I don't see any difference. Shouting down everyone with typical "terrorist", "safety risk and" or "symbol of oppression" cards.

On the other hand, typically and very cunningly abortion and LGBT agendas are being pushed and forced here on people -in the name of progressiveness, of course. What irony! In a real world, abortion or homosexuality was never accepted as the norm and never will be. Therefore, the need for the relentless propaganda and attack on peoples minds and senses to change their view or simply brainwashing them. They are definitely making ground and it is very much evident here on this thread. Some posters are parroting clear nonsense as if under some terrible hypnosis or weird mind-control programme.

It seems like some peoples memory or sense of history only have began with the day when Fox started to broadcast their propaganda or the Iraninan Revolution. For your information, Hijab, Burqa or modest dressing predates Islam. I am sure you must have come across some sort of depiction of Mother Mary. Just pay heed as to how christian nuns wear their dress, how traditional Brahmin ladies cover their heads, or what attire is worn on the day of graduation -even to this day in many "advanced western society". You will find its not a bikini but rather a long flowing robe or a gown. Do you know why? Because, it is associated with knowledge, learning, culture, elegance and modesty. It has withstood the test of time even the culture of our current counter-culture. Likewise, the Hijab will always be seen as a symbol of modesty, piety, elegance, wisdom, tradition and good culture -at least, by the cultured minds. As for those who are perverted and minds full of filth will naturally be gravitated towards that and see "progress" in that. They will only see "free expression" in nakedness, lewdness and debauchery. Light or darkness -your choice!

shoibboshach
February 23, 2017, 08:47 AM
Arabs by general are such archaic, people we cannot disregard this, they still practice such ancient traditions, Arabs have done their fair share of heinous deeds against humanity,ISIS themselves have murdered millions of non-Muslims as a result of them claiming to preach Islam.



I find this extremely disturbing, racist and bigoted. I hope mods are paying attention. If the same was said about the Jews or Indians for example there would have been an uproar in a fit.

ISIS have murdered MILLIONS and they are ALL Arabs is news to me. Are most of them not mercenaries or agents and therefore, they all cover their faces? And since when ISIS (Israeli Secret Intelligence Service) represent you, I or vast majority of muslims? Just because they shout out Islam or carry out henious crime against humanity in the name of Islam doesn't make them muslims/arabs or Islamic. Obviously, you dont know anything of the Arabs or anything for that matter. Just an Arab hater.

tonmoy.dhaka
February 23, 2017, 09:20 AM
Please stop right there and be gentle to yourself.

Your obvious resentment/dislike/hatred for the Arabs (a race) and callous disregard for human history ("6th" century) is a resounding testimony against your non-evolution as a human being -if you insist we have evolved for better. We associate racism with devolution not evolution in a non Darwinian sense. Racism is pure ignorance. On the other hand, you absolutely worship developed western society. Couldn't possibly be more of a partisan soul than that! You think -like all other advanced socities- western society, perchance, will not decline or self destruct?? Did Rome not fall? or the Osmanli? Do you not see the sun rising in the East again? Can you not imagine or understand that it has always been cyclical -the rise and fall?

Who has dropped atom bombs on two major cities of the world?
Who has napalmed villages after villages?
Who has used white phosphorus on defenceless and innocent civilians?
Who continues to occupy, loot, rape and plunder other peoples land and resources?

Millions of dead Iraqis, Afgans, Bosnians, Serbians, Rawandans and many others. NOT in the 6th century but THIS century!!!

Evolved?? Sexual orientation?? I heard about the Bible thumper and now witnessing the thumper of an other kind...

In modern society people can make enlightened claim that formula milk is better than mothers milk??

Or that the Universe is contracting (pre-Hubble)?

Do you not see science has always been relative and is usually built on the past?

Perhaps, you are just being deliberately obtuse.

I was not being racist. I mentioned Arab and 6th century because the topic of discussion is burqa and it is derived from The Arabs. Europe was in the dark ages not too long ago and America were the main practitioners of Slavery and not too mention of their treatment of the Aborigines. In other words what is wrong is wrong no matter who does it.

Anyways, you asked a question about modern times and I provided the answer. Your counter argument is really weak and without any real substance, infact I am having a hard time to understand what you are trying to say that has anything to do with the subject matter?

Also since you mentioned the millions dead, please do not forget the Armenian genocide and Genocide in Bangladesh!! Hmm I wonder how you missed that...
Finally don't expect me to reply to any more of your messages. You are just a conspiracy theory nutjob who blames Israel for everything (so predictable bunch you guys are).

Rifat
February 23, 2017, 09:20 AM
Hahaha Rifat quoting puff daddy... now i have seen everything there is to see in BC:lol:

I was not as "innocent" as I am now during my teen years hahahaha. my mistake, that wasn't p diddy, that was snoop dogg. I have always liked freestyle Rhythms And Poetry(RAP), only a certain selection of rappers though! haven't listened to quality rap in a while!

DinRaat.
February 23, 2017, 09:22 AM
I was not being racist. I mentioned Arab and 6th century because the topic of discussion is burqa and it is derived from The Arabs. Europe was in the dark ages not too long ago and America were the main practitioners of Slavery and not too mention of their treatment of the Aborigines. In other words what is wrong is wrong no matter who does it.

Anyways, you asked a question about modern times and I provided the answer. Your counter argument is really weak and without any real substance, infact I am having a hard time to understand what you are trying to say that has anything to do with the subject matter?

Also since you mentioned the millions dead, please do not forget the Armenian genocide and Genocide in Bangladesh!! Hmm I wonder how you missed that...
Finally don't expect me to reply to any more of your messages. You are just a conspiracy theory nutjob who blames Israel for everything (so predictable bunch you guys are).

You took the words out of my mouth

DinRaat.
February 23, 2017, 09:24 AM
I find this extremely disturbing, racist and bigoted. I hope mods are paying attention. If the same was said about the Jews or Indians for example there would have been an uproar in a fit.

ISIS have murdered MILLIONS and they are ALL Arabs is news to me. Are most of them not mercenaries or agents and therefore, they all cover their faces? And since when ISIS (Israeli Secret Intelligence Service) represent you, I or vast majority of muslims? Just because they shout out Islam or carry out henious crime against humanity in the name of Islam doesn't make them muslims/arabs or Islamic. Obviously, you dont know anything of the Arabs or anything for that matter. Just an Arab hater.

No point in continuing this conversation with a conspiracy theorist who beleives the world is controlled by the elite and ruled by illumanti, intertwined by the israelis, cheerio

Zeeshan
February 23, 2017, 09:55 AM
I think we are needlessly stretching this on. Rifat is actually right. *shudder* :rolleyes: The particular garment is actually a symbol of devotion to their Lord. Who the f are we to object to it? It is their right. Move on. Live and let...and all those 'feel good' quotes.

The fact that we have to 'debate' about it shows something is wrong with us. But tonmoy and dinraat put up a good fight. Kudos to them.

http://sportofboxing.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Bt-3-Sanchez-vs-Gazca1.jpg

Zeeshan
February 23, 2017, 09:58 AM
As for the interested party this is what Rifat was referring to:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/GJzF7H2e3Tw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

tonmoy.dhaka
February 23, 2017, 10:20 AM
I think we are needlessly stretching this on. Rifat is actually right. *shudder* :rolleyes: The particular garment is actually a symbol of devotion to their Lord. Who the f are we to object to it? It is their right. Move on. Live and let...and all those 'feel good' quotes.

The fact that we have to 'debate' about it shows something is wrong with us. But tonmoy and dinraat put up a good fight. Kudos to them.

http://sportofboxing.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Bt-3-Sanchez-vs-Gazca1.jpg

lol!!
Thanks buddy... I am the biggest fan of "live and let live"...
I hope people who wear Burqa does so because that is their choice and not something that was forced on them. Also I hope the same people who choose this option also realize that they must comply with the law of the land if the law believes that there are some security risk associated with their choice.

tonmoy.dhaka
February 23, 2017, 10:24 AM
I was not as "innocent" as I am now during my teen years hahahaha. my mistake, that wasn't p diddy, that was snoop dogg. I have always liked freestyle Rhythms And Poetry(RAP), only a certain selection of rappers though! haven't listened to quality rap in a while!

No ones judging Brother........ :goal:

shoibboshach
February 23, 2017, 10:34 AM
I was not being racist. I mentioned Arab and 6th century because the topic of discussion is burqa and it is derived from The Arabs. Europe was in the dark ages not too long ago and America were the main practitioners of Slavery and not too mention of their treatment of the Aborigines. In other words what is wrong is wrong no matter who does it.

Anyways, you asked a question about modern times and I provided the answer. Your counter argument is really weak and without any real substance, infact I am having a hard time to understand what you are trying to say that has anything to do with the subject matter?

Also since you mentioned the millions dead, please do not forget the Armenian genocide and Genocide in Bangladesh!! Hmm I wonder how you missed that...
Finally don't expect me to reply to any more of your messages. You are just a conspiracy theory nutjob who blames Israel for everything (so predictable bunch you guys are).

Do you guys know anything?? The word Burqa is not of Arabic origin nor derived from the Arab. You guys really need to snap out of that 'Arabs are Evil and Backward' mind-control programme. The customs of Burqa as we know today actually derives from Khurasan or present day Iran and Afghanistan. The muslim Arabs dressed modestly according to their societal status or tribal customs.

I am glad you have dragged along the Armenian genocide here -although, it didn't happen in THIS century. Now, please inform me as to exactly why your homosexual loving, baby killing progressive "advanced western society" such as US, Canada, UK, France or Israel REFUSE to acknowledge the Armenian Genocide as a Holocaust? Who were exactly behind the genocide? The real Ottoman caliphate actually fell in 1908. Who were the Donmeh Young Turks? Also why all of your "advanced western society" are in bed with the most repressive and brutal regime of all Saudi Arabia whose barbaric executions rate is far higher than that of "ISIS"?! In fact, both Saudi and "ISIS" operate by the exact principles and methods. Yet, they are Saudi's biggest allies. Hypocrisy much?

Finally, I thank you for expressing your wish not to continue further. I agree I don't see any point of wasting time with intellectual midgets who doesn't know history nor how to use their God given faculties and will very predictably resort to labeling people with this and that. Also, unlike a few I actually don't get paid posting in forums. So, bye.

Zeeshan
February 23, 2017, 10:40 AM
http://i.imgur.com/QdP2CeM.png

Jadukor
February 23, 2017, 11:33 AM
I feel like bodrul is back or is it bcf

Rifat
February 23, 2017, 11:37 AM
I think we are needlessly stretching this on. Rifat is actually right. *shudder* :rolleyes:

I wonder what you are implying /:). I don't say controversial stuff and Alhamdulillah never been banned, never been to jail! most people in this forum and in real life agree with me on many many things(religion and non religious matters). my non muslim coworkers were very impressed when i explained to them about the structure of the universe from a Hadith POV. :).

bujhee kom
February 23, 2017, 11:52 AM
I feel like bodrul is back or is it bcf

Heheheh Jadukor dosto...Bodu bhai is back in action...!

Attio shojon bondhu bandhob roise Bangladesh-e
Mui Roisi Qatar-e
Charidikey shudhu Morubhumi lagey Fak faka!
Burqa poira haati ami balur deshe shudhu eka aka..
Uter pithey choira berai khejur gachey gachey...

bujhee kom
February 23, 2017, 12:01 PM
On a serious note dear guys,

Debate, but please try to refrain from generalizing and writing derogatory comments targeting specific race, gender or ethnic groups, i.e. "Arabs are this and that" ..."middle age White women"... "gay" or "transgender" people. It is not right and it makes the forum environment unhealthy.

Some of us here have Arab, different age white women, gay and transgender family members and dear friends.
Please do not do this. Not in here, not in this forum. Or else will have to send serious complains to the moderators and admins.

adamnsu
February 23, 2017, 12:16 PM
On a serious note dear guys,

Debate, but please try to refrain from generalizing and writing derogatory comments targeting specific race, gender or ethnic groups, i.e. "Arabs are this and that" ..."middle age White women"... "gay" or "transgender" people. It is not right and it makes the forum environment unhealthy.

Some of us here have Arab, different age white women, gay and transgender family members and dear friends.
Please do not do this. Not in here, not in this forum. Or else will have to send serious complains to the moderators and admins.

Should also include Mullah's as well.

mufi_02
February 23, 2017, 12:21 PM
I nominate Zee as the moderator of this debate

Yankees
February 23, 2017, 12:45 PM
I think we are needlessly stretching this on. Rifat is actually right. *shudder* :rolleyes: The particular garment is actually a symbol of devotion to their Lord. Who the f are we to object to it? It is their right. Move on. Live and let...and all those 'feel good' quotes.


It would be nice if that were the case, but its almost never the case. Also I dont think people here understand that burqa =/ hijab. No one is arguing the hijab here, only the female suffocation unit.

tonmoy.dhaka
February 23, 2017, 03:20 PM
On a serious note dear guys,

Debate, but please try to refrain from generalizing and writing derogatory comments targeting specific race, gender or ethnic groups, i.e. "Arabs are this and that" ..."middle age White women"... "gay" or "transgender" people. It is not right and it makes the forum environment unhealthy.

Some of us here have Arab, different age white women, gay and transgender family members and dear friends.
Please do not do this. Not in here, not in this forum. Or else will have to send serious complains to the moderators and admins.


I completely agree, one looses his/her credibility if a comment is made that sounds derogatory to a group or race.

In my defense I said

" Someone who is destined to follow the lifestyle of the 6th century Arabs might not realize it unfortunately"...

I did not consider it to be derogatory when I wrote it because if the word "Arabs" are replaced by any other race (including Bengali) I would not have taken any offense in that since I was emphasizing on the 6th century. But I am truly sorry if it hurt anyone, I would be more careful when I phrase something going forward.

Zeeshan
February 23, 2017, 05:00 PM
Should also include Mullah's as well.

Oh FFS mullah is offensive? It is a legit term in the dictionary, and not even a slang.

While we are getting b--------hurt and offended at everything, I am not comfortable with 'human' generalization either.

Where are the 'grow a thick skin' crowd when you need'm?

And tonmoy stop apologizing. This is what they do. Play the victim and offensive card and make you look like the bad guy.

BengaliPagol
February 23, 2017, 07:28 PM
@SportingBD @Mufi
I want to clarify something
I want to sincerely apologize if I came across as someone who believes every women who wears Burqa is Oppressed. None do it by choice.
I want to state that I do not believe everyone wears burqa by force, a lot of these women chose this.

I am still against the attire. I still think it is a sign of oppression and I still oppose the idea of wearing it for reasons already stated.

Oppression is a subjective term. I see people conforming to society's way of wanting to wear less clothing as oppression and people who cover themselves up to go against the social norm as truly free. The former are sheep the latter are thinkers.

Antora
February 23, 2017, 07:53 PM
Islam, certainly, does not hold women as sinners! In fact, as a general rule, it does not hold anyone to be exclusively sinner/s. Those who come up with these kind of absurd and often misogynistic "interpretation" should be rounded up and flogged at a public square. A little harsh - you may protest. Actually, those who approve and accept these "interpretation" should also be treated the same because of their negligence and ignorance of their faith. They are also part of the problem who empower and give credence to those dangerous idiots.

Burqa or an Abaya is a garment or conduct of modesty. NOT a protection against molestation. If a young women decides to take a walk at midnight through a dark alley of a rough neighbourhood, you will find most often, a Burqa will not come to her rescue from any potential harm or abuse. Of course, unless, she is a superwoman and Burqa her cape. Don't forget most of the thugs are not philosophers nor saints and this world has never been an utopia. Accept reality, use commonsense and be safe. I try my best to avoid most alleyways at any time of the day/night. Prevention is better than cure. Many people quite erroneously associate Burqa as a protection against rape or molestation. The primary objectives of an Abaya or a Burqa or a Hijab are promotion of modesty, piety, elimination or minimization of sexual tension at public/work domain, productivity, peace and harmony, promotion of the spirit, non-objectification of women, protection of family, women and children and general welfare of both men and women and society. Traditionally, muslim men also used to were long and loose garments and in some places they still do.

You mentioned something about men creating a safe environment for women. I say charity begins at home. Women should work out what is good or harmful for them. They should not always dance to the tunes of those militant feminists with hidden agendas or those "white, middle aged, dead" sociologists. We can all clearly see how many women and young girls (e.g pop culture) are being so grotesquely exploited and abased ( and the dire consequences on family and society) and all in the name of modernity, freedom, liberation and equality. Slogans and the reality are not the same. Reality and appearance are not the same. We are living through an age of massive deception. May God protect us from the great fitnah (tribulation) of Dajjal.


1. I agree it is a very misogynistic interpretation BUT it is one that is largely used to oppress women and in those cases, cage women in Burqas.

2a. Burqa and Abaya is considered modesty. But what is modesty? I can walk around in Australia with my hair out a dress to my knees and that is modest here. In Bangladesh I wear a salwaar Kameez and that's modest there. Modesty is contextual and based on societal interpretation. I believe modesty is more than policing women's clothing.

2b. You mentioned men had to wear loose clothing and still do in some countries. If Hijab is for both men and women, why aren't men's clothing policed? Why do men get a free ride? In Bangladesh, men can pull their pants down in the middle of the street and take a piss. But when a woman's scarf is not covering her chest properly, all of a sudden she becomes a victim of harassment and she is considered to bring shame to her family.

3. Feminism is essentially a political movement fighting for equality. If you're not a feminist, you're basically saying you don't want equality. Women and girls are being exploited and abused because of patriarchy not because of feminism. The patriarchal system allows this to happen and feminism is fighting this. Yes,the feminist movement is not perfect. We see that with white feminism. This is why intersectional feminism came into play which includes post-colonial feminist theory and queer theory-- Including women of all walks of life.

Also, by saying women should work out what's good for them, women already do this. We have done this since day one. But men need to be schooled on not to rape not to harass and not to be psychically violent. It is my right as a citizen to walk down the alleyways at night if I wish to do so. It is your responsibility as a man, a law abiding citizen and as a decent human being, not to do anything to me.

Zeeshan
February 23, 2017, 10:20 PM
Oh FFS mullah is offensive? It is a legit term in the dictionary, and not even a slang.

While we are getting b--------hurt and offended at everything, I am not comfortable with 'human' generalization either.

Where are the 'grow a thick skin' crowd when you need'm?

And tonmoy stop apologizing. This is what they do. Play the victim and offensive card and make you look like the bad guy.

Triggered.

adamnsu
February 23, 2017, 11:08 PM
Oh FFS mullah is offensive? It is a legit term in the dictionary, and not even a slang.

While we are getting b--------hurt and offended at everything, I am not comfortable with 'human' generalization either.

Where are the 'grow a thick skin' crowd when you need'm?

And tonmoy stop apologizing. This is what they do. Play the victim and offensive card and make you look like the bad guy.

FFS I never said it was offensive

shoibboshach
February 24, 2017, 08:42 AM
1. I agree it is a very misogynistic interpretation BUT it is one that is largely used to oppress women and in those cases, cage women in Burqas.

2a. Burqa and Abaya is considered modesty. But what is modesty? I can walk around in Australia with my hair out a dress to my knees and that is modest here. In Bangladesh I wear a salwaar Kameez and that's modest there. Modesty is contextual and based on societal interpretation. I believe modesty is more than policing women's clothing.

2b. You mentioned men had to wear loose clothing and still do in some countries. If Hijab is for both men and women, why aren't men's clothing policed? Why do men get a free ride? In Bangladesh, men can pull their pants down in the middle of the street and take a piss. But when a woman's scarf is not covering her chest properly, all of a sudden she becomes a victim of harassment and she is considered to bring shame to her family.

3. Feminism is essentially a political movement fighting for equality. If you're not a feminist, you're basically saying you don't want equality. Women and girls are being exploited and abused because of patriarchy not because of feminism. The patriarchal system allows this to happen and feminism is fighting this. Yes,the feminist movement is not perfect. We see that with white feminism. This is why intersectional feminism came into play which includes post-colonial feminist theory and queer theory-- Including women of all walks of life.

Also, by saying women should work out what's good for them, women already do this. We have done this since day one. But men need to be schooled on not to rape not to harass and not to be psychically violent. It is my right as a citizen to walk down the alleyways at night if I wish to do so. It is your responsibility as a man, a law abiding citizen and as a decent human being, not to do anything to me.

You ask what is modesty? I don't blame you as everything has become so confusing and relative nowadays. This has come about as a result of a systematic dismantling of the traditional family, society, community, belief systems, tradition, education, culture, political and economic order. Hence, the New World Order. Most traditional societies knew what modesty (inward and outward) is and it found its expression according to local customs, culture, religions and tastes. If you study closely you will find they were not vastly different from each other. As an example, in a pre-colonial India Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Zain, Parsee or Sikh wo/men used to wear loose clothings often covering their heads and, as a general rule, not free mixing with the opposite sex. When they did they followed a formal code of conduct, protocol and courtesy. Even when they interacted with the same sex they observed local customs an courtesy. Profane language and obscene gestures were shunned even at an informal setting. None of today's perverse "Ho and B.tch" culture. Same could easily be said about the Victorian Brits or French, German or the Australians of that era. Modesty is also interlinked with courtesy and consideration for the others. Therefore, a lack in courtesy will result in loss of modesty. You treat others as you wished to be treated. If you're modest and courteous towards others you would expect the same in return. Kind of like action/ reaction thing. Therefore, how one dress, carry himself or herself or behave matters in any society.

I have never said that men shouldn't be hold responsible for their actions or they have certain responsibilities. I have alluded in my post that we don't live in an Utopia and not all men (or women) are educated, moral or enlightened beings. There will always be thugs or criminal elements. As a citizen I have every right to carry bundles of notes in my hands on the way or out of the bank. But, do we do that in practice? We practice precaution despite the law being there.

I am not against a justified and true Feminism -not a crazy militant one. But I think Feminism has been hijacked a long time ago -if not from its inception- despite its various forms and names. It has been used from waging gender wars between men and women to controlling births of certain race and colour. "Patriarchy" is a buzzword in Feminism for a reason. The agenda is to create a rift between man and woman a dismantling the family and society. A Patriarchy with some qualifications will always be the norm in most society. Men has always been the leader. Even an ardent feminist will desire a male who is a leader and takes control especially when it comes to sex. There you go I have said it. The reality is that all the rich bankers, oil merchants, weapon manufacturers or CEOs are overwhelmingly male. Feminism quite curiously has almost no say in those echelon of society. And, it is very interesting that Women Lib movement was entirely funded by the Rockefeller clan.

We have to be very careful with what is being taught and pushed in the name of liberty, equality and freedom. It always sounds good on paper but most of the time comes with malevolent hidden agendas. Mostly it is all Machiavellian politics. Many things have been promised in the name of modernity only to further exasperate matters. If we are wishing for clarity, direction and guidance than we must return to our traditional faiths i.e Islam, Christianity, Judaism or Hinduism. These are mostly rooted on solid grounds that we can build on. The New World Order has nothing but caos and confusion.

iDumb
February 24, 2017, 10:14 AM
Even an ardent feminist will desire a male who is a leader and takes control especially when it comes to sex. There you go I have said it. The reality is that all the rich bankers, oil merchants, weapon manufacturers or CEOs are overwhelmingly male.

.

haha... wtf? You obviously did not have enough sex. I don't know how you guys form these opinions.


But men need to be schooled on not to rape not to harass and not to be psychically violent. It is my right as a citizen to walk down the alleyways at night if I wish to do so. It is your responsibility as a man, a law abiding citizen and as a decent human being, not to do anything to me.

Your views of men are disturbing. How many men are going around raping people? I think it's time for you to start meeting some respectful men as well.

When I walk down the alleys at night I also fear getting mugged as a man. It is my right to walk down the alley but I am not stupid.

And while l respect your opinion - a woman (who is not wearing hijab/burqa/religious clothing/modesty) opinion is as good as a man in this thread.

If a burqa/Islamic religious garb is banned, do you think all a sudden all the real problems that you guys brought up in this thread on subjugation of women will disappear? Hijabi girls are afraid to walk outside now in fear of getting attacked.. THIS IS THE PROBLEM.... islamophobia, hate... not the hijb.

just a side note...many of you may think you are "fighting for something" by writing nonsense in message forum... people who actually are making difference, the unsung heroes are actually doing something.. which includes supporting acid attack victims, domestic violence victims, building only girls school in villages - things that truly empowers women. I am involved with people who do all that and they (men) also happen to pray 5x a day and the women wear some form of hijab/burqa. It is time to log out of internet and MEET PEOPLE and be hands on.....

I wanna know when was the last time any of you big mouth donated for a women cause? It's time today you do that... put your money and effort where your mouth is.....

Good luck.

iDumb
February 24, 2017, 10:16 AM
images in news media, islamophobia spreading and clouding everyone judgement...and perhaps reading facebook/youtube/and internet troll vile comments messing up ppl's perception....

Yankees
February 24, 2017, 11:21 AM
Your views of men are disturbing. How many men are going around raping people? I think it's time for you to start meeting some respectful men as well.

When I walk down the alleys at night I also fear getting mugged as a man. It is my right to walk down the alley but I am not stupid.

And while l respect your opinion - a woman (who is not wearing hijab/burqa/religious clothing/modesty) opinion is as good as a man in this thread.

Probably the most ridiculous comments here. Do you think getting mugged and sexually harrassed are the same? Do you think they have the same lasting effect on a person? Do people in BD cry over a man's "izzot" when he gets mugged?

More importantly, throughout this whole thread, every guy has complained about how we shouldn't speak on behalf of women and its up to them to decide, or that it makes a woman feel safe when she is walking down the street. And we finally have a woman who gives her input as to why she doesn't wear a burqa, and how society shouldn't make a woman feel unsafe because she hasn't covered herself head to toe, and you dismiss her opinion as having the same as a man's because she doesn't wear a burqa (in a thread about women wearing a burqa). Completely illogical and moronic. No, actually, you dismiss her because she doesn't share your opinion. If she wrote "I wear a burqa and I love it" you would be all over it praising her "see women love wearing burqas, her opinion matters"


just a side note...many of you may think you are "fighting for something" by writing nonsense in message forum... people who actually are making difference, the unsung heroes are actually doing something.. which includes supporting acid attack victims, domestic violence victims, building only girls school in villages - things that truly empowers women. I am involved with people who do all that and they (men) also happen to pray 5x a day and the women wear some form of hijab/burqa. It is time to log out of internet and MEET PEOPLE and be hands on.....

I wanna know when was the last time any of you big mouth donated for a women cause? It's time today you do that... put your money and effort where your mouth is.....

Good luck.

Yea very easy to sound righteous by slinging accusations and on an anonymous forum. You know the defense is flimsy when the person has to resort to "well talking about it won't get us anywhere. how many of you donated blah blah blah. I know real heroes therefore you guys are losers"

Throughout history, people have had debated over one thing or another. It's why all society have had some version of have townhalls. Change only takes place when you can convince the masses. And real change takes place when the masses have had a chance to understand both sides. This is just the modern version of that. Even if one person has changed their perspective, it would have been worth it. But no, you would rather we shut up and "stop wasting time". In other words, we should just put on an intellectual burqa and stfu.

al Furqaan
February 24, 2017, 12:19 PM
Rifat listens to rap? Chhi chhi chhi...eto aje baje gaan...

Rifat
February 24, 2017, 12:26 PM
Rifat listens to rap? Chhi chhi chhi...eto aje baje gaan...

I can spit some as well. I should have a rap battle with that guy who keeps hating on Mushfiqur Rahim ;). It will probably go something like this:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/A1dAs0aWas8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

*btw, I knew you were sarcastic, you like rap too*

tonmoy.dhaka
February 24, 2017, 12:58 PM
Oppression is a subjective term. I see people conforming to society's way of wanting to wear less clothing as oppression and people who cover themselves up to go against the social norm as truly free. The former are sheep the latter are thinkers.

So Mr Thinker, I suggest you walk the streets with Ski Mask always, why follow us sheeps.

mufi_02
February 24, 2017, 02:09 PM
ah the debating will go nowhere. btw out of curiosity @ tonmoy, I just went to PP and saw some posts with your nick. do you post there as well?

brockley
February 24, 2017, 02:23 PM
I said to my pastor today you could be arrested he had his bike helmut on as he entered church,a public place,he laughed kind of anyway.
People are a lot more aware of rules and regulations.

iDumb
February 24, 2017, 05:39 PM
Probably the most ridiculous comments here. Do you think getting mugged and sexually harrassed are the same?
I think u missed the point .... u can get killed in the alleys too ..yes it happens . Do women feel safe anywhere ... I highly doubt and rightfully so.... but should all men be blamed for it in a blanket state ment .... I am not too sure .

how we shouldn't speak on behalf of women and its up to them to decide...., you dismiss her opinion as having the same as a man's because she doesn't wear a burqa

You have somewhat of an argument here. But I think we are thinking differently ... the opening post I took it as banning a form of religious clothing in a world of islamophobia.... point was a choice should be there .... Antora doesn't wear it because she feels it's a subjugation of women or she feels it's too hot I don't know ... she is right ... there might be a person with a burqa who may feel caged/subjugated (but she will feel like that around those ppl whether or not she wears them ).... but there are thousands of ppl who does it for modesty..is not forced ...and feels a loss of identity without wearing them .... the real question is what if you don't have the choice .. Will that be ok?

I personally don't like burqa/niqab/hijab/head cover ... ...but if a voting was to.take place regarding banning one particular religious clothing ... then I will vote against it because of other repercussions it will have ....

It's actually my fault for replying in this thread .. I don't feel passionately about this non significant clothing if u are just talking about the clothing itself ...


And regarding my other portion of actually doing something ... it comes from the way some of you write ... same to u .on the internet forum .... it's easy to sound all righteous :) but to me actions are louder than words ......

No further comment :)

Zeeshan
February 24, 2017, 06:55 PM
Probably the most ridiculous comments here. Do you think getting mugged and sexually harrassed are the same? Do you think they have the same lasting effect on a person? Do people in BD cry over a man's "izzot" when he gets mugged?

More importantly, throughout this whole thread, every guy has complained about how we shouldn't speak on behalf of women and its up to them to decide, or that it makes a woman feel safe when she is walking down the street. And we finally have a woman who gives her input as to why she doesn't wear a burqa, and how society shouldn't make a woman feel unsafe because she hasn't covered herself head to toe, and you dismiss her opinion as having the same as a man's because she doesn't wear a burqa (in a thread about women wearing a burqa). Completely illogical and moronic. No, actually, you dismiss her because she doesn't share your opinion. If she wrote "I wear a burqa and I love it" you would be all over it praising her "see women love wearing burqas, her opinion matters"




Yea very easy to sound righteous by slinging accusations and on an anonymous forum. You know the defense is flimsy when the person has to resort to "well talking about it won't get us anywhere. how many of you donated blah blah blah. I know real heroes therefore you guys are losers"

Throughout history, people have had debated over one thing or another. It's why all society have had some version of have townhalls. Change only takes place when you can convince the masses. And real change takes place when the masses have had a chance to understand both sides. This is just the modern version of that. Even if one person has changed their perspective, it would have been worth it. But no, you would rather we shut up and "stop wasting time". In other words, we should just put on an intellectual burqa and stfu.

Just curious where do you get your kebab from?

Zeeshan
February 24, 2017, 06:58 PM
The reason I ask is because I get mine from Zait and Zataar.

Zait and Zataar

http://zaitandzaatar.com/

And... Mazlems are nothing but some of the nicest people. This is from someone who looks Middle-Eastern yet tatted to the core whole body yet they never misbehaved.

Zait and Zaatar

http://zaitandzaatar.com/

Zeeshan
February 24, 2017, 07:01 PM
I can spit some as well. I should have a rap battle with that guy who keeps hating on Mushfiqur Rahim ;). It will probably go something like this:

[Video]

*btw, I knew you were sarcastic, you like rap too*


Post of the thread!!

al Furqaan
February 25, 2017, 04:03 AM
As my first serious post in this thread I will say that the purpose of hijab is modesty when a woman chooses to wear on her own accord. Thats not to say those wearing hijab are immodest by any means. But neither is it safe to assume every woman wearing hijab is forced into it or its done because men can't control their gaze. Its not about men, nor is it about coersion, just because mullah Fojlul Islam Dipu says so. Its a personal choice just like boxers vs briefs. Is anyone going to make a fuss about men and boxers vs briefs? And how no man would voluntarily wear briefs therefore must be forced by some woman because pervy women can't control their gaze? Thats ridiculous.

iDumb
February 25, 2017, 10:07 AM
http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/129EF/production/_91517267_14569004_970144053111136_2060157841_n.jp g

Bangladeshi women students demanding justice for violent crimes against one of their own. You tell these strong women you can't wear muslim garb. Good luck! They will cut your d*** off if you wanna misbehave.

Jadukor
February 27, 2017, 07:32 AM
1. I agree it is a very misogynistic interpretation BUT it is one that is largely used to oppress women and in those cases, cage women in Burqas.

2a. Burqa and Abaya is considered modesty. But what is modesty? I can walk around in Australia with my hair out a dress to my knees and that is modest here. In Bangladesh I wear a salwaar Kameez and that's modest there. Modesty is contextual and based on societal interpretation. I believe modesty is more than policing women's clothing.

2b. You mentioned men had to wear loose clothing and still do in some countries. If Hijab is for both men and women, why aren't men's clothing policed? Why do men get a free ride? In Bangladesh, men can pull their pants down in the middle of the street and take a piss. But when a woman's scarf is not covering her chest properly, all of a sudden she becomes a victim of harassment and she is considered to bring shame to her family.

3. Feminism is essentially a political movement fighting for equality. If you're not a feminist, you're basically saying you don't want equality. Women and girls are being exploited and abused because of patriarchy not because of feminism. The patriarchal system allows this to happen and feminism is fighting this. Yes,the feminist movement is not perfect. We see that with white feminism. This is why intersectional feminism came into play which includes post-colonial feminist theory and queer theory-- Including women of all walks of life.

Also, by saying women should work out what's good for them, women already do this. We have done this since day one. But men need to be schooled on not to rape not to harass and not to be psychically violent. It is my right as a citizen to walk down the alleyways at night if I wish to do so. It is your responsibility as a man, a law abiding citizen and as a decent human being, not to do anything to me.

This is a wonderful post. :up:

I am sharing this video from Samina Ali (author and activist) founder of Daughters of Hajar incase if you haven't seen it already. Very relevant to the discussion here.
<iframe width="854" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/_J5bDhMP9lQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

BengaliPagol
February 28, 2017, 10:26 AM
This is a wonderful post. :up:

I am sharing this video from Samina Ali (author and activist) founder of Daughters of Hajar incase if you haven't seen it already. Very relevant to the discussion here.


Samina brang up good points about the huge role of women during the time of Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him but it is clear that she is manipulating interpretation and boiling down the idea of verses of Quran not necessarily meaning all women would need to cover. It is clear as day that she is tryna find ways to justify not wearing the hijab.

What she is saying she is tryna justify by other rulings but it is clear that wearing the khimar was evident during the time of the Sahaba and also the generation after them. She talks about hijab being a word that means a barrier, this is true but that doesn't mean that wearing a hijab is unnecessary. Rather the word hijab got coined to mean the covering over the head.

It is sad because obviously she is coming from a feminism standpoint and feminists are obsessing over the fact of dressing down. Rather i always felt that to be a feminism you should cover up so you can become freed from the objectification of women by men in this day and age. On top of that its sad seeing any Tom. Dick. Rachel talking about the Quran as if they know in detail whats going on. People need to learn to stay in their lane. Because when you have any x, y, z people talking about the Quran from their own interpretation it essentially confuses and divides people.

Lets instead take info about the Quran from a proper person who spend their time studying it and teaching it to others e.g. Nouman Ali Khan.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/AALgGKSnU2g" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/5ZS91-NK-po" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/e_R05DMoPCQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Fazal
February 28, 2017, 12:51 PM
Anybody watched "Lipstick under my Burkha" movie? What do you think?

tonmoy.dhaka
February 28, 2017, 12:52 PM
There are certain things that I find absolute non-sense and makes my blood boil.
examples
1. "Learn to stay on your lane, do not comment about Quran/Torah/Bible etc, leave that to the Scholars".. ..

what rubbish!! There is nothing complicated about what is written in the holy books. The historical references can also be understood easily by anyone who is willing to invest some time to do some very elementary research.

2. "He insulted my religion/prophet/holy books etc, so I he deserved it (it = assult/murder etc) " .....

I mentioned it before and I will say it again, "hurting religious sentiment" is bull....
Be matured and learn to debate or ignore. If someone is racist or ignorant, the world will judge him like that... These people kill because they are incapable to debate. Holey Artisan would have never happened if our society was not ignorant to the murder of bloggers.

3. "There is no room for re-interpretation/ reformation etc etc"...
Sure thing!! but the religion itself has many sects.. so lets stay ignorant a little more..
The fact is, this Salafism and Wahabism ideology that is preached so much today is because of the Saudi oil money that financed this ideology all over the world.. Not because majority saw the truth...

BengaliPagol
February 28, 2017, 01:11 PM
There are certain things that I find absolute non-sense and makes my blood boil.
examples
1. "Learn to stay on your lane, do not comment about Quran/Torah/Bible etc, leave that to the Scholars".. ..

what rubbish!! There is nothing complicated about what is written in the holy books. The historical references can also be understood easily by anyone who is willing to invest some time to do some very elementary research.

2. "He insulted my religion/prophet/holy books etc, so I he deserved it (it = assult/murder etc) " .....

I mentioned it before and I will say it again, "hurting religious sentiment" is bull....
Be matured and learn to debate or ignore. If someone is racist or ignorant, the world will judge him like that... These people kill because they are incapable to debate. Holey Artisan would have never happened if our society was not ignorant to the murder of bloggers.

3. "There is no room for re-interpretation/ reformation etc etc"...
Sure thing!! but the religion itself has many sects.. so lets stay ignorant a little more..
The fact is, this Salafism and Wahabism ideology that is preached so much today is because of the Saudi oil money that financed this ideology all over the world.. Not because majority saw the truth...

I guess simple things must make your blood boil alot. Your having a laugh about the first point. If Islam was really that simple we wouldn't have different madhabs in the first place. We wouldn't have scholars disputing other scholars. We wouldn't have different applications of shariah. Cmon man everything is not that simplistic.

I'm sorry but unlike you I don't want any no name Tom the mechanic, Dick the factory worker or Harry the taxi driver searching things up on google and giving talks to people about what is Islam. Because the things that Samina said go against the Ulema's understanding about the hijab. Just because she has a platform to speak about these things doesn't mean she is correct.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/xqvD6zfoGbs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

tonmoy.dhaka
February 28, 2017, 03:02 PM
I guess simple things must make your blood boil alot. Your having a laugh about the first point. If Islam was really that simple we wouldn't have different madhabs in the first place. We wouldn't have scholars disputing other scholars. We wouldn't have different applications of shariah. Cmon man everything is not that simplistic.

I'm sorry but unlike you I don't want any no name Tom the mechanic, Dick the factory worker or Harry the taxi driver searching things up on google and giving talks to people about what is Islam. Because the things that Samina said go against the Ulema's understanding about the hijab. Just because she has a platform to speak about these things doesn't mean she is correct.


All the holy books are simple, there is nothing that you can show me is complicated to understand.
Yes the messages are vague sometimes and they can be interpreted in lots of different ways. But "vague" is not equivalent to "complicated".

And since lot of the information are vague hence scholars (although there is nothing scholarly about most ulema's and allama's) and general population argue about its meaning.

Fazal
February 28, 2017, 03:07 PM
"obamacare" is complicated and religion is not?

SportingBD
February 28, 2017, 03:15 PM
True story,

I once communicated with a Christian lady about her religious belief and what she understood from the bible. My God, I can tell you clearly, what she understood and what most of the priest, scholars etc of bible understood and explained is completely different.

I freaked out totally, so I asked her, how her interpretation of the bible is so different from the common Christian people, so goes to me "I don't care what X,Y,Z believe or how they interpret the bible" what I see is what I believe".. on that moment, I asked her opinion on certain issues relating to the bible.. she could not answer..

Later on, she searched google etc, and than came back with answer from some priest/scholar etc from the internet, at that point I asked her? why she could not interpret herself and she needed the help of those priest or scholar? I further asked why she is nit picking? as she said she didn't really care about what the priest etc said or how they interpreted?

Very strange. My question is.. why do we need teachers etc to teach us from a young age? like on different subjects, maths, science etc? can someone or every not just go by the books? and say I read this book and this is how I interpret or understand it?

I think its something very difficult to do without guidance from a experienced person e.g. teacher, scholar etc?

tonmoy.dhaka
February 28, 2017, 04:25 PM
As I said, the text itself is not complicated. Given how many thousand ways things are interpreted, I believe it is more important to teach children how to think critically. Once a person learns what is socially and morally right and wrong, he can than explore the text inside the holy books and decide for him/herself.

Instead what is done, is the preacher has his/her own personal ideology, political views and agendas and he/she tries to mould the child to his own image. Ofcourse since the Saudis have the most money, so they can finance and preach their own ultra conservative militant and mafia version of the religion and make it the popular version.

A version that cannot be questioned!! That can only be understood by the otherwise uneducated mullahโ€™s moulanas ulemas allamas madhabis and god knows what other names they give themselves.

BengaliPagol
February 28, 2017, 04:31 PM
True story,

I once communicated with a Christian lady about her religious belief and what she understood from the bible. My God, I can tell you clearly, what she understood and what most of the priest, scholars etc of bible understood and explained is completely different.

I freaked out totally, so I asked her, how her interpretation of the bible is so different from the common Christian people, so goes to me "I don't care what X,Y,Z believe or how they interpret the bible" what I see is what I believe".. on that moment, I asked her opinion on certain issues relating to the bible.. she could not answer..

Later on, she searched google etc, and than came back with answer from some priest/scholar etc from the internet, at that point I asked her? why she could not interpret herself and she needed the help of those priest or scholar? I further asked why she is nit picking? as she said she didn't really care about what the priest etc said or how they interpreted?

Very strange. My question is.. why do we need teachers etc to teach us from a young age? like on different subjects, maths, science etc? can someone or every not just go by the books? and say I read this book and this is how I interpret or understand it?

I think its something very difficult to do without guidance from a experienced person e.g. teacher, scholar etc?

exactly. Spot on. In fact in Islam you are meant to have a teacher to teach you. You cannot go around learning whatever you want and however you want. Hadith sciences is a very tricky area where you have to deal with conflicting hadiths. On top of that if you don't know how to read arabic then you are simply cannot be taken seriously because there is deep level of nuances in the arabic language. In reality if layman think Islamic scholarship is straightforward then I really do not want to waste my time conversing with them.

SportingBD
February 28, 2017, 04:45 PM
exactly. Spot on. In fact in Islam you are meant to have a teacher to teach you. You cannot go around learning whatever you want and however you want. Hadith sciences is a very tricky area where you have to deal with conflicting hadiths. On top of that if you don't know how to read arabic then you are simply cannot be taken seriously because there is deep level of nuances in the arabic language. In reality if layman think Islamic scholarship is straightforward then I really do not want to waste my time conversing with them.

I think even in modern day for any particular subject a lot of research is carried out.

Assume you are asked to write a 5,000 words essay on "The impact of drugs in different countries". When writing your paper, you would relate and reference a lot of scholars etc in your work.

its called literature review. After you look at past studies and the result obtained by those scholars etc than you can form your opinion and start your critical analysis. Otherwise, if you start writing without actually acknowledging those papers, scholars etc, your mark tends to be really low..and teachers those who mark it will be like oh what rubbish...:D

In other words when studying the Quran, if I or anyone looks at what different scholars have said and how they interpreted, this should help that individual person to come to a conclusion that will allow them to form a opinion or say give them the tools to critically analyse.. however if you don't study what scholars have said and you start to wonder by yourself.. I don't think you will get good marks? you might end up in a completely different route?

Yes, I agree teachers are very important. Guidance and supervision is very important.

tonmoy.dhaka
February 28, 2017, 07:26 PM
How would one make money through religion if they accept the text as easy to understand!! lol..
Anyways, the truth of the matter is that these so called religious scholars make these children memorize the book cover to cover without them ever understanding what they are reading.
This is the usual trend in most islamic institutions (madrassahs) that these scholars preach in.

Anyways sorry for diverting the topic, but I hope more and more people come forward and have the courage to share their interpretation rather than being scared and subdued by these Wahabism preaching Religious mafia's.

shoibboshach
February 28, 2017, 07:30 PM
I am sharing this video from Samina Ali (author and activist) founder of Daughters of Hajar incase if you haven't seen it already. Very relevant to the discussion here.
<iframe src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/_J5bDhMP9lQ" allowfullscreen="" width="854" height="480" frameborder="0"></iframe>

This could have been almost a passable presentation if she wasn't given to theatrics, exaggerations and intellectual dishonesty. She should have provided references for those mistranslation/misinterpretation of Qur'anic verses related to women's clothing she so dramatically alleged. In my studies over the years, I have never come across such assertions by any reputable or accepted upon translators or exegete scholars. If she is quoting some odd or fringe opinion and then trying to pass it on as a mainstream position she will be guilty of dishonesty and misleading her audience. Which she is clearly doing here. Also, her historical analysis is one of truth mixed with fiction.

Then she had the cheek to give such a casual "Fatwa" that yoga pants would be considered modest for a muslim woman if this was the local custom or fashion. She should be tried at a court of law for such deliberate distortion and provocation. Why stop there! Hot pants and tank tops? What about drinking, clubing or dating? After all, when in Rome...

Saminas, Taslimas and their ilk are selling themselves for a paltry price and a fifteen seconds of fame by pandering to the anti-Islamic houses who are only extremely happy to provide them with the right platforms (no puns). They most definitely will reap what they sow. If they chose such lifestyle/worldview just for themselves out of self-preference or genuine self-conviction that would have been fine. But, that doesn't satisfy them. They want to convert all women to their way -even if it means lying or distorting. This is their function or what is required from them.

Zeeshan
February 28, 2017, 08:40 PM
Speaking of dishonesty, I would be very much inclined to see if the said sage is indeed an alias. I mean he seems to know his way around the forum, expert on quoting, knows precisely when mods should intervene .... all in the span of 8 posts with a familiar undertone of the tone of a familiar speaker and poster. Am I accusing? Damn right I am.

On topic, it is precisely because of the poster like above and Bengalipagol that makes one shun religion. "My way or the highway". I know best, so and so and so cleric knows best and must be followed on his footsteps, and damned and fried by those who don't... never mind that any text.. any text is open to interpretation by anyone.

Tonmoy, you are not the only one whose blood is boiling. So much so that I had to blow my cover, give away my hideout and post again! :-|

Zeeshan
February 28, 2017, 08:42 PM
It is sad because obviously she is coming from a feminism standpoint and feminists are obsessing over the fact of dressing down. Rather i always felt that to be a feminism you should cover up so you can become freed from the objectification of women by men in this day and age.

How is this not objectifying the women you nutjob?

BengaliPagol
February 28, 2017, 09:00 PM
How is this not objectifying the women you nutjob?

wtf bro?

BengaliPagol
February 28, 2017, 09:20 PM
If you want to make your interpretation of the Quran then by all means do so. Do whatever it is you think is right even if it means not having a single idea about the arabic language and reading a translation in english and coming up with your own exegesis of the Quran. But in reality we should do our level best to learn the true Islam as Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him taught it and the only way we can do that is to take in as much as we can from the Sahaba and the generation after them.

After all Aisha described Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him as a "walking Quran". But if you are hell bent on own personal interpretation then there is not much I can do because I don't want to be part of a generation that shuns and doesn't go back to traditional renowned scholars such as Imam Ghazali, Sheikh al-Islam ibn Tamiyyah, Abu Hanifah and many others who were basically taught Islam from the generation after the Sahabah and lived through the Golden Ages. Whereas right now in the muslim world we are suffering a huge knowledge crisis.

If I am responsible for making you shun religion than by all means forgive me. That was never my intention. "My way or the highway" saying is usually referring to Salafis or Wahabis who try to be strict on Aqeedah and Fikh issues and I am certainly not in that mould. All my intention was to share the basic frameworks that are laid out in Sunni Islam. If you don't like what i'm saying then no need to get aggressive on me. Just read what i say and research if what i say is right or wrong. That is all i ask for you to do.

Side note but i think people are getting the wrong picture. Somehow people are painting a picture of just being controlled and taking in everything an Ustadh/Sheikh/Scholar said with no criticism and mindlessly learning things. That is not Islamic Scholarship at all. You don't go to any no name dude to learn Islam rather you go to renowned and highly acclaimed scholars to learn. In Islam there is a set framework in place and within that framework there is a lot of flexibility. An example is just by looking at the Madhabs and and Fikh stances they have. But you need to be within the framework.

Why is extremism even in the conversation? If anything the idea of Quranic verses being open to interpretation facilitates extremism and verses can be manipulated to fit agendas. Take for instance the Khawarij. They were prophecised by Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him. They didn't learn any Deen from the true scholars of the time of Ali ibn Abi Talib. And they were all misguided. It is about learning from real and true scholars.

Jadukor
February 28, 2017, 09:32 PM
[Rant mode on]
So the conservatives here think that the creator of the entire universe wrote a book for mankind that could not be read and understood by the reader himself/herself. The book needs to be spoon fed to you by teachers who could either teach you what is on the pages, or their own extremist interpretation. And they think liberals are the real sheep lol.

Even looking at the world today it is not clear to them that the clubbing, drinking and dating liberals generally mind their own business, only advocate for the FREEDOM of choice, and do not feel the urge to blow stuff up for god. We are not the real problem facing the world. At the worst case, our music might be too loud if u r a neighbor. Trust me, there are no atheists sitting in a sofa marking his calendar to run a truck over non believers for an easy pass to behest.

The problem is with the twisted interpretations fed to conservatives by these so called "teachers". No offense to Anik, Pakistan is the prime example of what can happen to a country if you let conservatives dictate terms. I am not sure how many conservatives would leave their comfy lives in the west and settle in any muslim country but i really think they should. That will be an eye opener to most people once they see for themselves if women are truly free. And no! just because your aunt and grandma willingly wears her dress doesn't mean you can extrapolate that and say all women enjoy free lives in afghanistan, pakistan saudi arab syria, yemen, iran etc. Unless the statistics produced through research by humanitarian and international organizations are all false, there can be no question regarding oppression on muslim women. I actually admire Bodrul in this regard lol. At least he lives what he preaches. He is not a hypocrite who takes benefit from free western societies and then trashes their culture on open forums.

Conservatives and their refusal to reform anything will take the rest of us down with them. Now having a muslim name means an extra hour of checks at airports. We have totally lost the trust of the general population with our own actions. The eternal obsession over little things like how to dress, or over difference of which sub category you fall under. As if the creator of the Universe needs to care about micromanaging women on earth.

Why extreme right wing politics is taking over Europe much like the US? This a reaction to fanatic muslims blowing themselves up all over the place. Now the west is doubting if a free society welcoming to immigrants is truly viable.
[Rant off]

tonmoy.dhaka
February 28, 2017, 10:22 PM
Yeah Arabic is such a complicated language that it can never be translated accurately!!! Try explaining such logic to the unfortunate people who never had the chance to receive proper education. This sort of theories would never work with people who can think for themselves.

Let me tell you a True Story (I can provide reference if you want ) about these great scholars.
These scholars always rejected the West and hated the idea of embracing anything Western. They hated the west so much that they opposed the idea of "Telephone" and "TV" calling it evil. The King Saud (or one of his advisers) than forced these scholars to talk to each other over the two ends of the phone and asked them "did you hear evil?" before they agreed that phone is not evil.... ....... Anyways so you expect me to learn from them?? Dream On!!!... I am pretty sure I cannot teach these Religious scholars Divergence or Curl or Maxwell's equation in thousand years.. so they would always think Telephone is magic or evil from the west.

shoibboshach
March 1, 2017, 03:45 AM
My God! This forum has been definitely hijaked by hyper zealous, millitant and rabid Islamophobes or anti-Islamic agents. They have organized themselves brilliantly and will attack ANY pro-Islamic voices all in unison...just like a pack of hyenas. They also have devised a great cover: staunch and fanatical supporter and defender of the western "liberalism" who happened to be a muslim. Great ploy -no doubt. I will put it in black and white -why these posters need to appear as both muslim and "liberal"? Islam and "liberalism" are often manifestly antithetical to each other. Shoudn't they reject or denounce Islam outright and choose "liberalism" as their religion? But no, they want to have their cake and eat it too.

On the other hand, the regular muslim Joes or Moes of this forum are indifferent or busy trying to appear as super-intelligent and negating each others with futile and often foolish arguments or counter-arguments. Nero fiddles while Rome burns.

SportingBD
March 1, 2017, 04:23 AM
How to know if one should use a scholars reference in their work? Well the first thing would be to know about the scholar? The second would be to see how often he/she has been cited/referenced by other people in their work? Now if I write an essay and randomly pick weak references and studies by scholars and avoid the main references, often your teachers give you bad marks, as you have left out the most famous or common study of particular scholars? I try often to relate to real life to understand things better. If you do a wonderful piece of work with bad reference/cite you often don't get good marks. Now if you want to understand the Quran, who are the common scholars one should read on? How have they interpreted the Quran? Who are those scholars, where do they come from, all this has to be checked. I don't think you can randomly pick a scholar without actually checking their history and start to use them as reference, it's not wrong but you wouldn't get good marks if you miss out using the common or most known study of scholars etc..

shoibboshach
March 1, 2017, 04:38 AM
On topic, it is precisely because of the poster like above and Bengalipagol that makes one shun religion.

You ought to be ashamed of yourself. You think most people are so feeble minded or their faith and Islam so weak or superficial that they will turn their back on their faith because of some discussion on an internet forum. Do you realize how emotional, hyperbole and irrational that sounds? Those who shun religion for such stupid reasons had very little care or faith to begin with. No religion will miss them. They will be replaced by men and women of real substance.

Therefore, I suggest you only talk about yourself. Don't assume everyone is like you.

shoibboshach
March 1, 2017, 04:53 AM
[Rant mode on]

Why extreme right wing politics is taking over Europe much like the US? This a reaction to fanatic muslims blowing themselves up all over the place. Now the west is doubting if a free society welcoming to immigrants is truly viable.
[Rant off]

Yes the rise of a Hitler, Mussolini or a Franco in Europe was a direct result of those fanatic muslims blowing themselves up all over the place. There couldn't possibly be any other solitary reason or cause. Welldone, Mr. Analyst.


I think I need to read my 1984 again.

Jadukor
March 1, 2017, 04:58 AM
My God! This forum has been definitely hijaked by hyper zealous, millitant and rabid Islamophobes or anti-Islamic agents. They have organized themselves brilliantly and will attack ANY pro-Islamic voices all in unison...just like a pack of hyenas.

Yes you have unmaksed us.. it was all a grand plan devised by the evil western empire since 1990s :lol:.

Lets do a headcount on this thread.. Sportingbd, you, BP, Rifat so that makes four voices for Hijab. How many people are attacking you like a pack of hyenas?

SportingBD
March 1, 2017, 05:12 AM
I remember once my professor recommended me some books to read for my masters. It was very easy to read the book, however, I didn't understand a lot of concept and theory in that book. In those moments, I asked for the guidance and supervision of my professor, to better understand what is written in the book. Once the professor explained, the confusion disappeared. Now the question is do I blame the book or my lack of intelligence to understand the book? Not everyone has high intelligence level, otherwise no one would need teachers, professors, scientist etc, they can plainly read the book and become experts. The Quran, Bible etc are easy to read but their are certain things that one may not understand due to lack of intelligence? In that case what do you do? Who do you question?

Jadukor
March 1, 2017, 05:37 AM
Yes for people lacking intelligence anything could be confusing, even blending a fruit juice. I have seen idiots who would follow guidebook as opposed to the main text book in my student life because there is always this tendancy to follow an easier path where things are spoon fed to you rather than think critically. Having mullahs tell you what is right, is easier than reading and thinking yourself and reaching your own conclusion. This is why people can easily be mislead using scriptures and turned into terrorists.

A book from god and a book written by man should be fundamentally different. With a book from god.. i would think that god would guide you and help you understand when you read without having a middleman involved. God ought to know the limits of human intelligence and would therefore write a book that can be inherently understood by all human beings

SportingBD
March 1, 2017, 05:49 AM
How do you develop intelligence? Is it possible to do so without asking questions? If someone doesn't know something how does he go about knowing that? If I read a book that has a complicated formula and theory, how do I find the answer? If assume I am a 16 year old reading a corporate markets book, and I have lot of questions to ask, as I don't understand lot of the theories etc, in that case what do I do? How do I clear my confusion and erase my doubts? Does asking questions and trying to find answers to something you don't understand mean you lack intelligence?

ReZ_1
March 1, 2017, 05:55 AM
What about the hijab of a man? No one seems to be emphasizing on this. If we consider that Hijab is more than just a garment or covering and an invisible barrier then how we man are observing this? In this time of the world it is very difficult to just lower the gaze (according to translation of Quran) when you interact with opposite gender. So I wanted to know how exactly we maintain this invisible barrier according to Islamic law from both sides and what is the guideline.
[I am referring to the lady on Tedx]

Jadukor
March 1, 2017, 05:59 AM
Yes the rise of a Hitler, Mussolini or a Franco in Europe was a direct result of those fanatic muslims blowing themselves up all over the place. There couldn't possibly be any other solitary reason or cause. Welldone, Mr. Analyst.


I think I need to read my 1984 again.

I didnt say all right wing movements are the fault of muslims. I am also not saying this is the only reason. There are other economic and social issues perhaps. However I have no doubt over the correlation between islamophobic slogans, anti refugee and anti immigrant views (which seems to be a common thread amongst all right wing parties in europe right now) in recent years to the rise in Islamic radicalism, terrorist attacks in Paris, Brussels, ISIS etc.

My point was simply to say point out that bad days are ahead for all muslims who are immigrants regardless of whether we agree on hijab or not.

shoibboshach
March 1, 2017, 06:06 AM
The Quran, Bible etc are easy to read but their are certain things that one may not understand due to lack of intelligence? In that case what do you do? Who do you question?

Not necessarily due to a lack of intelligence but a lack of specialist training will be the root cause. Intelligence isn't everything. You wouldn't expect an intelligent layman to interpret complex commercial or international law or practice it. S/he can read the text all they want and derive some insights and benefits. But, the authority and the legal right to interpretation and practice solely belongs to the prefessionally qualified expert.

Some of the posters here probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a main clause and a subordinate clause of a sentence in Bangla or English -nevermind classical Arabic. Even if they posses the linguistic tool there are other tools they must acquire and master. That usually takes about 12 years of fulltime study and training. Not a child's play. A few posters here don't even understand a nunanced or a multi-layered text and, thus, dismiss them all as vague. They live in a "Either you are with us or with the terrorists" world. It is a true reflection of their insincerity, ignorance and stupidity.

I doubt most of them are even capable of reading Tolstoy, Shakespeare, Dostoyevsky or even Nazrul or Bibhutibhushan -let alone ancient classical Texts such as the Bible or the Qur'an.

shoibboshach
March 1, 2017, 06:33 AM
I didnt say all right wing movements are the fault of muslims. I am also not saying this is the only reason. There are other economic and social issues perhaps. However I have no doubt over the correlation between islamophobic slogans, anti refugee and anti immigrant views (which seems to be a common thread amongst all right wing parties in europe right now) in recent years to the rise in Islamic radicalism, terrorist attacks in Paris, Brussels, ISIS etc.

My point was simply to say point out that bad days are ahead for all muslims who are immigrants regardless of whether we agree on hijab or not.

Now that you have qualified your statement and given it some substance and not pinning everything to the mythical "blowing up" bogeymen in a blanket generality -it is somewhat reasonable.

And about those bad days that awaits the muslims...thanks for breaking and sharing that with us. Really nice of you.

May I ask you why is there a rise in Islamic radicalism? How real is it or is it just a percieved rise? What are the root causes? Islam has been traditionally associated with civilisation, tradition, culture, art and science. How has it turned into a public enemy number one in an overnight?

BengaliPagol
March 1, 2017, 07:25 AM
why are terms such as liberalism and conservative get thrown around when talking about religion. You are either a practicing or a non-practicing muslim.

shoibboshach
March 1, 2017, 07:36 AM
A book from god and a book written by man should be fundamentally different. With a book from god.. i would think that god would guide you and help you understand when you read without having a middleman involved. God ought to know the limits of human intelligence and would therefore write a book that can be inherently understood by all human beings

You probably have not read the Quran or capable of understanding its text. God clearly states man knows little...a little knowledge was given to him anyway. That not everyone has knowledge. He didnt bestow everyone with the same and equal knowledge, favour or gifts. He didn't create everyone as same or equal. Fact. It should be blatantly obvious to all capable of reason and understanding. He didn't create everyone equally as tall, healthy and of sound minds. Nor all are scholars, theologians, thinkers, stratigists, jurists or physicians. Not all are equaliy educated, either. Some has to be builders, carpenters, farmers or todays favourite the software engineers. Therefore, the less knowledgable one must seek from the knowledgable one. It has always been like that. Guru-Shisho relationship. God could have sent the scriptures directly to the people. But, He revealed them to the "middlemen" prophets. Not only that...He sends an angel to instruct and teach the prophet. These are the ways of Allah (Sunan Allah) and He the Almighty does not do anything without wisdom. Had He willed He could have created you without your parents. But, He does not do that.

There is an order in God's work. Therefore, it is absurd and only wishful thinking that everyone will have equall access or understanding of the scripture. For God's sake, a vast number of people on this planet still cannot read. Don't forget this. Are they excluded from the Divine guidance then? Absolutely not. Therfore, the prophets and their inheritors the scholars.

Jadukor
March 1, 2017, 07:41 AM
How do you develop intelligence? Is it possible to do so without asking questions? If someone doesn't know something how does he go about knowing that? If I read a book that has a complicated formula and theory, how do I find the answer? If assume I am a 16 year old reading a corporate markets book, and I have lot of questions to ask, as I don't understand lot of the theories etc, in that case what do I do? How do I clear my confusion and erase my doubts? Does asking questions and trying to find answers to something you don't understand mean you lack intelligence?

You need to be more specific as to what in the holy text you find confusing. People who do not know Arabic would obviously have to rely on a translated version but the issues discussed aren't exactly quantum physics with formulas that would require you to run to douchebags like Zakir Naek and co for an interpretation. Most issues deal with common daily life issues in a historical context. You can use your own knowledge, bit of common sense to take the literal meaning and convert it into modern context that is applicable in the 21st century. I have read the English version and found nothing complicated other than some parts being vague which I guess got lost in translation from Arabic to English or perhaps due to my own lack of understanding. I think one ought to have faith and dive right into it and trust god to show you the way regardless of whether you are 16 or 60. If you know how to read then that should be enough. As I said before this is not a book written by man so the usual flaws with a corporate marketing book should not be an issue here.

BengaliPagol
March 1, 2017, 07:42 AM
In the Quran it literally says the Quran can also misguide many. Allah has warned basically that even going through the Quran it can lead many astray. With anyone interpreting what they like how are you so sure that you won't be astray in the process? Famous scholar Abu Bakr al-Ajurri during the rise of the Khawarij said this about the Khawarij

"None of the scholars, in either past or recent times, ever disagreed that the Khawarij are an evil group, disobedient to Allah Almighty and to His Messenger - Peace Be Upon Him. Even if they pray, fast, or strive in worship, it does not benefit them, and even if they openly enjoin good and forbid evil it does not benefit them, as they are a people who interpret the Quran according to their desire."

Fact of the matter is how do you know you will not fall into this category?

Jadukor
March 1, 2017, 07:49 AM
You probably have not read the Quran or capable of understanding its text. God clearly states man knows little...a little knowledge was given to him anyway. That not everyone has knowledge. He didnt bestow everyone with the same and equal knowledge, favour or gifts. He didn't create everyone as same or equal. Fact. It should be blatantly obvious to all capable of reason and understanding. He didn't create everyone equally as tall, healthy and of sound minds. Nor all are scholars, theologians, thinkers, stratigists, jurists or physicians. Not all are equaliy educated, either. Some has to be builders, carpenters, farmers or todays favourite the software engineers. Therefore, the less knowledgable one must seek from the knowledgable one. It has always been like that. Guru-Shisho relationship. God could have sent the scriptures directly to the people. But, He revealed them to the "middlemen" prophets. Not only that...He sends an angel to instruct and teach the prophet. These are the ways of Allah (Sunan Allah) and He the Almighty does not do anything without wisdom. Had He willed He could have created you without your parents. But, He does not do that.

There is an order in God's work. Therefore, it is absurd and only wishful thinking that everyone will have equall access or understanding of the scripture. For God's sake, a vast number of people on this planet still cannot read. Don't forget this. Are they excluded from the Divine guidance then? Absolutely not. Therfore, the prophets and their inheritors the scholars.

So you are saying that god sent the book to a few elites that are only capable of understanding who will then subsequently spoon feed the rest that don't have access? Nice way of consolidating power and manipulate the masses. The people who cannot read are not excluded from "Divine" guidance. Divine guidance should not come from youtube videos or tafsirs, it should come from a spiritual awakening to all that have faith in god

Jadukor
March 1, 2017, 07:55 AM
Ok at some point I would like to go back to the question of what caused the rise of Islamic radicalism or whether it is real or perceived.

As for BP, no I cannot say for certain that my understanding of the holy book is correct or perfect. It is a matter between me and god. What I do know is that I am not going to bring logic out of my back side, defy commons sense and say stuff like Women should cover up because that is the only way they can be free from objectification. If you can't see the irony in your own statements then I blame the scholars you subscribe to.

SportingBD
March 1, 2017, 07:59 AM
You need to be more specific as to what in the holy text you find confusing. People who do not know Arabic would obviously have to rely on a translated version but the issues discussed aren't exactly quantum physics with formulas that would require you to run to douchebags like Zakir Naek and co for an interpretation. Most issues deal with common daily life issues in a historical context. You can use your own knowledge, bit of common sense to take the literal meaning and convert it into modern context that is applicable in the 21st century. I have read the English version and found nothing complicated other than some parts being vague which I guess got lost in translation from Arabic to English or perhaps due to my own lack of understanding. I think one ought to have faith and dive right into it and trust god to show you the way regardless of whether you are 16 or 60. If you know how to read then that should be enough. As I said before this is not a book written by man so the usual flaws with a corporate marketing book should not be an issue here.

I'm not sure if you have been aware of the number of different sects etc that are being developed? Over time the number of division/sects has increased and the common understanding of the Quran is being made into sects by some section of people with how they are interpreting the Quran. As someone who has looked into why this is the case, it goes back to the lack of faith, and decrease in people knowledge and wisdom. Also, it is said that as time goes on more and more knowledgeable person in respect of religion won't exist much in this world in comparison to the past.. only God knows how things will be in future. There are certain things that's not easy to answer e.g from bible, Quran etc.. hence not everyone follows the same religion or the same book.

Jadukor
March 1, 2017, 08:02 AM
The core issues are this:
1. Do you believe women should have the choice to dress however they want?
2. Do you believe we have a problem of radical Islamic terrorism?
3. Do you believe that the radical Islamic terrorism is caused by false teaching, manipulation of holy text?

Based on the responses to the above I will make a decision whether to continue this conversation or get back to the Sri Lanka series

SportingBD
March 1, 2017, 08:02 AM
My question relates to the increase in the number of different sects and it's relation to how they understand and interpret the Quran? Is there a link? And why more and more different sects are developing? Is it to do with how they think or believe what Quran say? I can see a link but can you?

Jadukor
March 1, 2017, 08:26 AM
I am not sure what increase you are speaking of. I wouldnt imagine anything satistically significant out of 1.6 billion. I am sure they are not blowing up sunni mosques globally. You should rather worry about terrorists damaging Islam, majority of which are sunni extremists

shoibboshach
March 1, 2017, 08:34 AM
The core issues are this:
1. Do you believe women should have the choice to dress however they want?
2. Do you believe we have a problem of radical Islamic terrorism?
3. Do you believe that the radical Islamic terrorism is caused by false teaching, manipulation of holy text?

Based on the responses to the above I will make a decision whether to continue this conversation or get back to the Sri Lanka series


1. NO! Freedom is not an absolute. You would not expect a female doctor in a bikini suit treating you for a cardiac arrest.

2. NO we do not. It is all about manufacturing events and consents for geo-political agendas. Read Chomsky.

3. What are you on about? You yourself have a false and manipulative attitude towards the holy text -nevermind the would be "tourists". Oh! I could only hear George Bush now.

shoibboshach
March 1, 2017, 08:45 AM
God expect you to go to a quantum physics professor if you want to become a quantum physicist. Regardless, if he is an elite or not. Don't go around in silly circles. It is an utter waste of time and insincerity.

SportingBD
March 1, 2017, 08:46 AM
I am not sure what increase you are speaking of. I wouldnt imagine anything satistically significant out of 1.6 billion. I am sure they are not blowing up sunni mosques globally. You should rather worry about terrorists damaging Islam, majority of which are sunni extremists

I see a direct relationship between one understanding and interpreting the Quran and terrorism? It's not so hard to understand. Most of the recent terror attacks have happened overseas by youngsters, recent converts etc. I read some article about how youngsters and terroist was using the interpretation of the Quran to their advantage, even though the common understanding is different. Now? You see some people took the Quran and started to interpret how they want and like. It wouldn't surprise you if I said terroism didn't exist 100-200 years ago in Islam? So how comes it exist today? Lot of blame goes to trying to become expert by oneself..
Without studying fully... and than ending up in a complete different route. I see a link between how one interprets the holy Quran and terroism, lack of understanding, lack of research, taking it as it is? You would also notice most terroist are young in age, European etc.. and when you search about their life you will find dodgy things.. once again it is the new form of interpreting the Quran that's impacting us, the new development of sects and understanding of the Quran etc.

Jadukor
March 1, 2017, 08:49 AM
It is an utter waste of time and insincerity.

I agree with you. Bye.

Jadukor
March 1, 2017, 08:53 AM
I see a direct relationship between one understanding and interpreting the Quran and terrorism? It's not so hard to understand. Most of the recent terror attacks have happened overseas by youngsters, recent converts etc. I read some article about how youngsters and terroist was using the interpretation of the Quran to their advantage, even though the common understanding is different. Now? You see some people took the Quran and started to interpret how they want and like. It wouldn't surprise you if I said terroism didn't exist 100-200 years ago in Islam? So how comes it exist today? Lot of blame goes to trying to become expert by oneself..
Without studying fully... and than ending up in a complete different route. I see a link between how one interprets the holy Quran and terroism, lack of understanding, lack of research, taking it as it is? You would also notice most terroist are young in age, European etc.. and when you search about their life you will find dodgy things.. once again it is the new form of interpreting the Quran that's impacting us, the new development of sects and understanding of the Quran etc.

I agree with you. I am not a scholar or a preacher. I have to the most basic knowledge to get by. I am not part of the problem because I do not discuss Islam by choice with others. The so called experts or the people that derail these kids are the problem. This is my point all along to not fall prey to charming scholars with a hidden agenda. Trust your own common sense and instinct to decide what is morally right and wrong. The people that do derail the kids.. like the kids that attacked and hacked foreigners to death in Gulshan all subscribed to the so called subject matter experts.

SportingBD
March 1, 2017, 09:03 AM
I agree with you. I am not a scholar or a preacher. I have to the most basic knowledge to get by. I am not part of the problem because I do not discuss Islam by choice with others. The so called experts or the people that derail these kids are the problem. This is my point all along to not fall prey to charming scholars with a hidden agenda. Trust your own common sense and instinct to decide what is morally right and wrong. The people that do derail the kids.. like the kids that attacked and hacked foreigners to death in Gulshan all subscribed to the so called subject matter experts.

Very sad moment. This is one of the reason one needs to spend time understanding the Quran, look at what past scholars have said or how they have explained certain things. Even today many people in their essay/research papers cite and use work of scholars from 100+ years. Albert Einstein is still used as reference, certain and famous people who has done exceptional work are still used as a source of reference. If you try to become expert by yourself you may end up in a different and dangerous route. I am not saying all the scholars are good, as I read we live in a era where the trust in scholars will decrease, as said in some Hadith etc, but that doesn't mean we should put all the scholars in the same basket, I think there are still some genuine scholars in the world, maybe hard to find, but they do exist. My only fear is the new form of interpreting the Quran and how many different sects are developing with different agenda and ideology.

tonmoy.dhaka
March 1, 2017, 10:00 AM
I will share a little bit of my own experience. I was born and grew up in Dhaka and spent my childhood over four different neighborhoods (since we lived in rented houses so we moved semi frequently). One good thing was that I frequented four different mosques growing up. They were all major mosques in Dhaka city. Except for one, I have heard sermons on the other three that would be deemed as highly inflammatory towards people of Hindu and Jewish faith. I have also studied in an English Medium School in Dhaka back in the 90โ€™s. We had a teacher who used to constantly spew hatred towards Jewish people. While I have learned to ignore them but I am guessing that many did not.

Fast forward to now!! This hate is still being preached. We have some of the most renowned and respected scholars in Bangladesh demanding the destruction of statues from high-court premise, these same people asked the women to be not allowed to work in garment industry and implied those working in the industry as โ€œwhoresโ€.

I havenโ€™t even mentioned about the biggest Islamic Party in Bangladesh. Well the biggest Islamic party in Bangladesh is responsible for murdering intellectuals and conspiring against the formation of Bangladesh.

We also have a third major Islamic Party calling themselves โ€œIOJโ€. Well they have always spewed hatred towards women. They categorically mentioned in numerous occasions that they are absolutely against the โ€œrule of womenโ€ although like the hypocrites they are, IOJ was a part of the alliance led by Khaleda Zia.

So this is how Islam is being practiced in Bangladesh for a long time now. I included the Islamic parties and their beliefs. There is nothing to suggest that this hatred is being manufactured just by some people and fringe parties who has no existence in popular politics, On the contrary, hatred is the norm that is being practiced for decades now.

SportingBD
March 1, 2017, 10:14 AM
I met a Indian guy the other day during lunch time. Initially I thought his Indian so most likely a Hindu. Suddenly he asked me what was my name, after saying my name he goes "Asalamalikum", I was quite surprised. He than introduces himself to me, by saying I'm Aziz from India, I only came two days ago to London. We spoke about different things, and at one stage it went to religious discussion. The brother told me that if you are Muslim and you live in India it is very difficult to get a job, and if you get a job they make you work really hard. He also says if you do a job perfectly, owners always find mistake just not to praise you or say good thing. He was talking how life is very difficult in India as minority Muslim. Also, in European countries like Romania etc, Muslims are not so welcomed and face difficulties, even the political parties in those countries don't like Muslims. I think this kind of thing sort of exist in every country where there are minority faith people?

kalpurush
March 1, 2017, 11:02 AM
. She should be tried at a court of law for such deliberate distortion and provocation..

Welcome to the Trump world! Put her in jail!! Put her in jail!!!

tonmoy.dhaka
March 1, 2017, 02:19 PM
You ought to be ashamed of yourself. You think most people are so feeble minded or their faith and Islam so weak or superficial that they will turn their back on their faith because of some discussion on an internet forum. Do you realize how emotional, hyperbole and irrational that sounds? Those who shun religion for such stupid reasons had very little care or faith to begin with. No religion will miss them. They will be replaced by men and women of real substance.

Therefore, I suggest you only talk about yourself. Don't assume everyone is like you.

Why should he or anyone be ashamed for asking valid questions and participating in valid discussions? This is the problem with you lot, you cannot debate with logic, you cannot provide examples. Show me a passage in Quran that is so complex and layered that only few chosen ones would understand? I can assure you that there is none.

You treat religion like Mafia. Islamic brotherhood is a mafia. Apostasy is punishable by death in Islam, why is that? Why cannot people choose for themselves? What is the point of death sentence for a choice that harms no one? Why do you have to be so aggressive and threatening towards anyone who does not subscribe to your way of thinking? Learn to respect everyone and all faith (or no faith) if you want to be respected.

Another example : When you impose taxation on a Person based on his religion, you are directly taking away his freedom of choice. That is as bad as forcing someone to wear Yellow star on his chest and I have every right to question that. That does not make me unfaithful, that makes me a humane human.

I have seen Afghanistan under the Taliban rule and I also saw how the Muslim majority country stayed silent to the way the women were oppressed and forced to beg!! If someone sees that and decides to not follow your version of Islam than it is not because of lack of faith, it is because of humanity.

SportingBD
March 1, 2017, 02:44 PM
Why should he or anyone be ashamed for asking valid questions and participating in valid discussions? This is the problem with you lot, you cannot debate with logic, you cannot provide examples. Show me a passage in Quran that is so complex and layered that only few chosen ones would understand? I can assure you that there is none.

You treat religion like Mafia. Islamic brotherhood is a mafia. Apostasy is punishable by death in Islam, why is that? Why cannot people choose for themselves? What is the point of death sentence for a choice that harms no one? Why do you have to be so aggressive and threatening towards anyone who does not subscribe to your way of thinking? Learn to respect everyone and all faith (or no faith) if you want to be respected.

Another example : When you impose taxation on a Person based on his religion, you are directly taking away his freedom of choice. That is as bad as forcing someone to wear Yellow star on his chest and I have every right to question that. That does not make me unfaithful, that makes me a humane human.

I have seen Afghanistan under the Taliban rule and I also saw how the Muslim majority country stayed silent to the way the women were oppressed and forced to beg!! If someone sees that and decides to not follow your version of Islam than it is not because of lack of faith, it is because of humanity.

I think the mods need to take strong action against Tonmoy.

He keeps on generalising "This is the problem with you lot, you cannot debate with logic, you cannot provide examples."

When does his comments fall under the Bigotry border? the moment he can't answer he goes ultra aggressive. I mean you lot??? who are the you lot???

seriously, don't make judgments and try to say everyone is bad.. just slyly saying you lot to disregards people's opinion..

I am keeping control of myself out of the respect I have for elders here. But the amount of sly bigotry and personal/social agenda/proganda shown by tonmoy is not nice.

tonmoy.dhaka
March 1, 2017, 02:48 PM
I think the mods need to take strong action against Tonmoy.

He keeps on generalising "This is the problem with you lot, you cannot debate with logic, you cannot provide examples."

When does his comments fall under the Bigotry border? the moment he can't answer he goes ultra aggressive. I mean you lot??? who are the you lot???

seriously, don't make judgments and try to say everyone is bad.. just slyly saying you lot to disregards people's opinion..

I am keeping control of myself out of the respect I have for elders here. But the amount of sly bigotry and personal/social agenda/proganda shown by tonmoy is not nice.


:facepalm:

:floor:

This was a really desperate attempt (I haven't done anything against forum rules)...

you lot = People posting here who are NOT Hyena's (since me Jadukor Zeesh etc are Hyenas as per shoibboshach).

Tigers_eye
March 1, 2017, 03:01 PM
I will share a little bit of my own experience. ...

So this is how Islam is being practiced in Bangladesh for a long time now. I included the Islamic parties and their beliefs. There is nothing to suggest that this hatred is being manufactured just by some people and fringe parties who has no existence in popular politics, On the contrary, hatred is the norm that is being practiced for decades now.
Hello Tonmoy,
I have a question. Bangladesh Awami League party, BNP, and other non-religious parties majority supporters are Muslims. Yes? Those who don't do any party, majority are Muslims. Agreed? Are these numbers of people much much much more than the Mullah's and their followers you are talking about? I would presume your answer to be "Yes." Percent wise it would be 60-40 split or 80-20 split or 90-10 Split with the Mullah's and their followers?

Do they (those Muslims) freely practice their religion (whichever way they want to practice)? Do the general people brew hatred?

If they are the Majority of the nation, and they are practicing differently than the hypocrites (With tupi on their head), then your statement which I have made bold is WRONG; because practice of the few cannot be blanketed over the majority. The other way around may be.

If you say, "So this is how Islam is being practiced by most Mullahs and their followers in Bangladesh for a long time now" I wouldn't object. But your statement includes EVERY Muslim in BD.

Thank you.

tonmoy.dhaka
March 1, 2017, 03:12 PM
Hello Tonmoy,
I have a question. Bangladesh Awami League party, BNP, and other non-religious parties majority supporters are Muslims. Yes? Those who don't do any party, majority are Muslims. Agreed? Are these numbers of people much much much more than the Mullah's and their followers you are talking about? I would presume your answer to be "Yes." Percent wise it would be 60-40 split or 80-20 split or 90-10 Split with the Mullah's and their followers?

Do they (those Muslims) freely practice their religion (whichever way they want to practice)? Do the general people brew hatred?

If they are the Majority of the nation, and they are practicing differently than the hypocrites (With tupi on their head), then your statement which I have made bold is WRONG; because practice of the few cannot be blanketed over the majority. The other way around may be.

If you say, "So this is how Islam is being practiced by most Mullahs and their followers in Bangladesh for a long time now" I wouldn't object. But your statement includes EVERY Muslim in BD.

Thank you.

You are right and as things stand now I should rephrase what I have written.

My point was to show how the religion is being Preached in Bangladesh. Not everyone Practices what is being Preached.

SportingBD
March 1, 2017, 03:17 PM
You are right and as things stand now I should rephrase what I have written.

My point was to show how the religion is being Preached in Bangladesh. Not everyone Practices what is being Preached.

You see. He keeps on apologising. Now he should rephrase labelling all muslims..:lol:

A week or two ago, he apologised to me and Mufi also...

Is it hard to read and trace his trend? generalise and than say sorry? take one week rest..

and come back again? start the anti Islam mission? the anti Moulana/Madrasha mission? when I reach near bigotry level again, I say sorry and come back again?

Please mods, look into his trend of generalising and trying to make Islam look bad.. etc..

tonmoy.dhaka
March 1, 2017, 03:24 PM
You see. He keeps on apologising. Now he should rephrase labelling all muslims..:lol:

A week or two ago, he apologised to me and Mufi also...

Is it hard to read and trace his trend? generalise and than say sorry? take one week rest..

and come back again? start the anti Islam mission? the anti Moulana/Madrasha mission? when I reach near bigotry level again, I say sorry and come back again?

Please mods, look into his trend of generalising and trying to make Islam look bad.. etc..

I stand by "what I say"... I make mistakes sometimes and I am man enough to own upto it.
My message is still very clear.
As I stated, you lot are incapable of engaging in a logical debate. Till now you have been unable to come up with a single valid arguement against what I have stated. You hide behind "elders asked me not to" arguement. If elders asked you not to, than please also stop with the personal attacks that have no merit.

Yankees
March 1, 2017, 03:27 PM
I met a Indian guy the other day during lunch time. Initially I thought his Indian so most likely a Hindu. Suddenly he asked me what was my name, after saying my name he goes "Asalamalikum", I was quite surprised. He than introduces himself to me, by saying I'm Aziz from India, I only came two days ago to London. We spoke about different things, and at one stage it went to religious discussion. The brother told me that if you are Muslim and you live in India it is very difficult to get a job, and if you get a job they make you work really hard. He also says if you do a job perfectly, owners always find mistake just not to praise you or say good thing. He was talking how life is very difficult in India as minority Muslim. Also, in European countries like Romania etc, Muslims are not so welcomed and face difficulties, even the political parties in those countries don't like Muslims. I think this kind of thing sort of exist in every country where there are minority faith people?

Just because it happens in other countries, doesnt make it ok for it to happen in BD. Its like saying,"yea we destroyed hindu communities, but look at what the Nazis did to the Jews." Two wrongs don't make a right. What Tonmoy is talking about is something I have experienced as well. Some of the things I have heard about hindus from my parent's friends, people who otherwise are generally good, are some of the most disgusting, horrible, vile. You think they didn't learn these things from their upbringing? There is no point in denying that this mentality doesn't exists.

Yankees
March 1, 2017, 03:29 PM
You see. He keeps on apologising. Now he should rephrase labelling all muslims..:lol:

A week or two ago, he apologised to me and Mufi also...

Is it hard to read and trace his trend? generalise and than say sorry? take one week rest..

and come back again? start the anti Islam mission? the anti Moulana/Madrasha mission? when I reach near bigotry level again, I say sorry and come back again?

Please mods, look into his trend of generalising and trying to make Islam look bad.. etc..

What nonsense. You cannot counter with logic so you attack his choice of words. He apologized for his choice of words, not his message. Cheap tactics.

SportingBD
March 1, 2017, 03:31 PM
There is no personal attack. The mods can see my post and decide if that constitutes personal attack.

It is clearly stating the trend of you from my observation. That is not personal attack/insult.

What is personal attack is when you label all Muslims as bad and than apologise. As pointed out by Tigers_eye. Now you go back to admitting your mistake. I'm just letting others know about the trend which I can see.

None of my post is attacking you as person or insulting you, it is directed towards your post.

mufi_02
March 1, 2017, 03:37 PM
You see. He keeps on apologising. Now he should rephrase labelling all muslims..:lol:

A week or two ago, he apologised to me and Mufi also...


bhai leave me out of this. You guys know a lot more than me and I made a mistake by getting involved in this. My expertise is cricket and not religion, social studies, Bangladesh.

Religion is a personal matter. BC is free forum with different opinions and ideas.

thank you :up:

Yankees
March 1, 2017, 03:42 PM
Jadukor, Tonmoy bros, take my advice and drop this. Just look at the people you are arguing with. When posters like shoiboshack and others use phrases like 'God clearly states man knows little..." believing with absolute certainty that the Quran was dictated by God and not man, you should know you are dealing with people of faith. And that's the thing about faith, it's not something that can be countered with logic. People who have faith do so despite the lack of evidence. They will not - rather cannot - see any other perspective. No matter how logical you try to be, you are not going to win over people who have been indoctrinated in their beliefs since birth.

shoibboshach
March 1, 2017, 03:59 PM
Show me a passage in Quran that is so complex and layered that only few chosen ones would understand? I can assure you that there is none.

You treat religion like Mafia. Islamic brotherhood is a mafia. Apostasy is punishable by death in Islam, why is that? Why cannot people choose for themselves? What is the point of death sentence for a choice that harms no one? Why do you have to be so aggressive and threatening towards anyone who does not subscribe to your way of thinking? Learn to respect everyone and all faith (or no faith) if you want to be respected.

Another example : When you impose taxation on a Person based on his religion, you are directly taking away his freedom of choice. That is as bad as forcing someone to wear Yellow star on his chest and I have every right to question that. That does not make me unfaithful, that makes me a humane human.

I have seen Afghanistan under the Taliban rule and I also saw how the Muslim majority country stayed silent to the way the women were oppressed and forced to beg!! If someone sees that and decides to not follow your version of Islam than it is not because of lack of faith, it is because of humanity.

Someone must have drilled this into your head that if you keep repeating a lie or otherwise people will start believing in you in time. Because, I have observed, you keep repeating yourself with the same nonsensical tripes in all the threads.

No, apostasy is not punishable by death in Islam. Capital punishment can be applied IF apostasy is connected with a treason against the state. A banishment was the norm for a repeated apostasy case. Learn and study Islamic history or law first before hitting every thread with false propaganda. Also, what imposed tax are you referring to? Have you asked all the muslims of this planet whether they condone the acts of Taliban in Afghanistan?

" ู…ูŽุง ู†ูŽู†ุณูŽุฎู’ ู…ูู†ู’ ุขูŠูŽุฉู ุฃูŽูˆู’ ู†ูู†ุณูู‡ูŽุง ู†ูŽุฃู’ุชู ุจูุฎูŽูŠู’ุฑู ู…ู‘ูู†ู’ู‡ูŽุง ุฃูŽูˆู’ ู…ูุซู’ู„ูู‡ูŽุง ุฃูŽู„ูŽู…ู’ ุชูŽุนู’ู„ูŽู…ู’ ุฃูŽู†ู‘ูŽ ุงู„ู„ู‘ูŽู‡ูŽ ุนูŽู„ูŽู‰ูฐ ูƒูู„ู‘ู ุดูŽูŠู’ุกู ู‚ูŽุฏููŠุฑูŒ "

Since you're such an absolute scholar could you translate the above Quranic Verse in her both possible ways? And, show how linguistically one can derive to two outwardly contradictory meanings. Give us the opinions of classical Arabic scholars or grammarians on this verse. Dont just come up with a google translation. Provide a scholarly explanation, please. I actually chose a relatively easy text for the first challenge. I saw you online now. So a quick response will be much appreciated. Thanks.

tonmoy.dhaka
March 1, 2017, 04:32 PM
Someone must have drilled this into your head that if you keep repeating a lie or otherwise people will start believing in you in time. Because, I have observed, you keep repeating yourself with the same nonsensical tripes in all the threads.

No, apostasy is not punishable by death in Islam. Capital punishment can be applied IF apostasy is connected with a treason against the state. A banishment was the norm for a repeated apostasy case. Learn and study Islamic history or law first before hitting every thread with false propaganda. Also, what imposed tax are you referring to? Have you asked all the muslims of this planet whether they condone the acts of Taliban in Afghanistan?

" ู…ูŽุง ู†ูŽู†ุณูŽุฎู’ ู…ูู†ู’ ุขูŠูŽุฉู ุฃูŽูˆู’ ู†ูู†ุณูู‡ูŽุง ู†ูŽุฃู’ุชู ุจูุฎูŽูŠู’ุฑู ู…ู‘ูู†ู’ู‡ูŽุง ุฃูŽูˆู’ ู…ูุซู’ู„ูู‡ูŽุง ุฃูŽู„ูŽู…ู’ ุชูŽุนู’ู„ูŽู…ู’ ุฃูŽู†ู‘ูŽ ุงู„ู„ู‘ูŽู‡ูŽ ุนูŽู„ูŽู‰ูฐ ูƒูู„ู‘ู ุดูŽูŠู’ุกู ู‚ูŽุฏููŠุฑูŒ "

Since you're such an absolute scholar could you translate the above Quranic Verse in her both possible ways? And, show how linguistically one can derive to two outwardly contradictory meanings. Give us the opinions of classical Arabic scholars or grammarians on this verse. Dont just come up with a google translation. Provide a scholarly explanation, please. I actually chose a relatively easy text for the first challenge. I saw you online now. So a quick response will be much appreciated. Thanks.


A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism. Mu'adh bin Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Mu'adh asked, "What is wrong with this (man)?" Abu Musa replied, "He embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism." Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down unless you kill him (as it is) the verdict of Allah and His Apostle.
โ€”โ€‰Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:89:271

Death-penalty was the norm for Apostasy and most scholars subscribe to it.

Now, lets assume you are right, the punishment for apostasy is banishment!! Why should a person be banished if he did not cause any harm to anyone? Why should Apostasy be punished at all??

Now what imposed tax am I referring to?? I am surprised that a knowledgeable person like yourself has no idea. Please read up on Jizya.

While taliban was going about their merry way in Afghanistan, none of the Muslim majority country seemed to have any compulsion to force them to stop. That was my point.

Lastly, I do not understand Arabic, however please provide me the chapter /verse and I will look it up.

al Furqaan
March 1, 2017, 04:58 PM
Are we still on this? Hasnt this topic been beaten to a death yet?

Lets talk about boxers vs briefs instead.

Antora
March 1, 2017, 06:03 PM
Lel. Every discussion on religion ends like this...

Anyway, Jadukor bhai, thanks for the video. I've only recently discovered her and actively looking to purchase her books. I see interesting reactions to the video.

I just want to point out, I feel many of you are misinformed about feminism. Feminism is not about dressing down . You can be a feminist and wear a burqa or you can be a feminist and wear a bikini. Women from every community, every culture and every religion have their own struggles against patriarchy and are free to fight for equality in their own way. Feminism doesn't place restrictions or tell women to dress a certain way. Saying feminists should cover up to to avoid objectification is in fact objectifying her and blaming her for harassment etc. in other words, victim blaming. The fact that some men have an issue with the way women dress is essentially why we need feminism.

Antora
March 1, 2017, 06:08 PM
You ought to be ashamed of yourself. You think most people are so feeble minded or their faith and Islam so weak or superficial that they will turn their back on their faith because of some discussion on an internet forum. Do you realize how emotional, hyperbole and irrational that sounds? Those who shun religion for such stupid reasons had very little care or faith to begin with. No religion will miss them. They will be replaced by men and women of real substance.

Therefore, I suggest you only talk about yourself. Don't assume everyone is like you.
Not everyone has strong faith. Developing a strong faith is something a lot of people constantly struggle with. Telling those people religion won't miss them, is pushing them further away.

Antora
March 1, 2017, 06:25 PM
You are right and as things stand now I should rephrase what I have written.

My point was to show how the religion is being Preached in Bangladesh. Not everyone Practices what is being Preached.
The way Islam is preached in Bangladesh is a very real problem. I've been stuck in traffic jams and unintentionally had to hear a few waaz here and there. Frankly, I never knew 'scholars' could speak in such vulgar ways. Extremely disgusting.

During my undergraduate years and now in postgraduate of international development, I've taken a very big interest in rape being used as a weapon of war- which was the case for Bosnia , Bangladesh etc. Whilst I was researching on 1971 and reading interviews and scholarly research I was quiet disgusted. Women who were raped during that time were not only shunned then but shunned even more now. The fact that men can lose an arm or leg or even die in war are considered heroes whilst women who lose their dignity are not given their due respect because a woman's dignity is something that should be 'covered' is disgusting. They gave us an identity and we give them disrespect in return. What makes us different to those who took their dignity away? I've heard many people in Bangladesh and read about how society shuns these women and how in a lot of cases religious 'scholars' are behind this.

Fazal
March 1, 2017, 07:29 PM
Are we still on this? Hasnt this topic been beaten to a death yet?

Lets talk about boxers vs briefs instead.

I believe both exposed boxers and briefs in Public is haram unless you wear a lungi, pajama or a pant in top. boxers and briefs with woman's picture on should be avoided at any cost.

BengaliPagol
March 1, 2017, 08:05 PM
I think people are just using one statement i made and using that as a sly side comment to disregard everything that i'm saying. The way i phrased it about objectified was not the best term to use rather i should have used a term such as commodified, in relation to women getting dressed down, wearing bikinis and used all over billboard magazines, posters on buses etc.

Instead I have to be called a nutjob in the process where instead we couldn't just critique and discuss normally instead of resorting to name calling which is a disappointment especially from so called liberals. And them saying they are getting so angry and the things that apparently we "conservatives" say are the sort of things that lead one person away from religion when in reality its just a discussion on a forum makes you scratch your head. A "conservative" on this thread hasn't gotten angry and named called another person. Anyways people are saying us so called "conservatives" are not using evidence and/or logic but all i am seeing is evidence brought from the Quran and sunnah and also logic and reasoning. If you don't want people to wear burqa or hijab then that is your decision. But the trend nowadays is to try and change an interpretation of something from the Quran to try and align it with something that is happening with the current society. And that is what I fear because what I want to do is follow the Islam that Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him taught but for most liberals that is a concept that they are not fully accepting of because they want to use and only use the current society as a yardstick for a perfect society.

The so called "liberals" are going to examples of suicide bombings, encounters of Islam in Bangladesh and other means as a way to emotionally justify their reasoning or line of thought. Yes those are big problems but alot of those Sheikhs suffer from huge illiteracy in Bangladesh and they would stand nowhere in comparison to proper scholars so why is this used as an argument i have no idea. Give them a few arabic writings and tell them to say what it means they will be left scratching their head. The most they will be able to do is recite that verse with decent tajweed. On top of that suicide bombings is a current phenomena so to say current Islam is the reason and neglecting geo-politics is sad especially coming from Muslims themselves.

End of the day so called liberals will see it one way and conservatives will see it another way. Until the so called liberals start to build the Imaan and study Islam properly not just from google and realise how huge the beautiful religion of Islam is and how tricky it is then it will be like debating an ignorant person. But in saying that I too am ignorant however my friends who are properly studying the Deen tell me stories about how all the students ask the teacher 2-3 hours worth of questions each lesson because it is difficult. And its fascinating to hear about all this because frankly me previously use to think yes just search up the verse and get context behind it and that's it but its not even that simple.

The argument about Allah should make a book able to be learnt by everyone is frankly not a fair one. Learning about the Deen is about acquiring knowledge and acquiring knowledge goes to different levels. People like Imam Bukhari memorised millions of ahadith and filtered it just a few thousand in the Sahih al-Bukhari volumes if I am not mistaken. The knowledge and ability to be able to do that is mind boggling and now here we are saying that anyone should be able to do it because Allah has made Islam open to everyone doesn't make sense. We as all humans have all the basic necessities needed to be able to grasp on fundamentals of religion. And that alone is enough to gain salvation which is the main and crucial thing of a Muslim. One of the things we are all given is the Fitrah which Allah has already instilled in us. And then it spreads into different ways such as learning the tafsirs of the short surahs in the Quran.

These are just the many things that Allah has given the ability to allow anyone to do. And frankly these are the main and crucial things one should know about Islam. And frankly as some scholars have said if you want a summary of the Quran read Surah Fatiha. If you want a summary of Surah Fatiha read the middle verse of the Surah Fatiha. These are things that all people can do easily. Whereas knowledge increases things get tricky and saying that all people should be able to do it is absurd especially when people have different levels of knowledge. Especially like people like Imam Bukhari who obviously was blessed with knowledge and the ability to memorise. Allah didn't make knowing the Quran inside out and learning everything there is as the criteria for all humans. He has done that within his infinite wisdom. There are many other ways to help the Ummah and also spend time doing such as helping the poor, taking in orphans and etc.

And its funny because even certain Sahaba didn't have all the ability of interpreting everything in what the Quran said. That in itself goes to show that people have different skillsets about the religion. Because once you say Quran should be understood by everyone means that you are making that the norm of the people when in fact their are many ways of achieving salvation through other means by different people with different skillsets. And to say the religion can only be understood by the elite few is frankly not a fair statement. Back in the day Islam was beaming with scholarship and because of what the Ummah is going through today it has a result limited the number of scholars. Because the education system within a caliphate would have meant that everyone would have had very good grounding on Islam and unfortunately this is not present in the Islamic world of current times.

There are hadiths saying things like it will be near end of times when scholars get neglected. Why? Because when we neglect them we don't get proper interpretation of texts making people being misguided and coming up with their own ideas out of their own whims and desires. People need to stop using the arguments of "following a scholar blindly". There are many thousands of scholars and they may differ in certain things so you grasp the things they say and then you can use your analysing and critical thinking to understand. As i reiterated before there is alot of freedom within a certain framework in Islam but you have to be within that framework.

al Furqaan
March 2, 2017, 03:22 PM
^well Quran commands muslims to do tafakkur (critical thinking) but you will have people arguing that Abu Burbok heard Abu Gadha claim that the Prophet said to blindly follow xyz sheikh's twitter feed. Therein lies much of the problem.

Tigers_eye
March 2, 2017, 04:21 PM
^well Quran commands muslims to do tafakkur (critical thinking) but you will have people arguing that Abu Burbok heard Abu Gadha claim that the Prophet said to blindly follow xyz sheikh's twitter feed. Therein lies much of the problem.
What about Sheikh Google? He is offended by your post. Give him some props next time.
"Mrs. Mollah, facebook must be true" is just shaking his head. Sorry, her head.

al Furqaan
March 2, 2017, 06:01 PM
What about Sheikh Google? He is offended by your post. Give him some props next time.
"Mrs. Mollah, facebook must be true" is just shaking his head. Sorry, her head.

I am not a follower of Googli madhab, I think they are definitely the "wrong'un". They are a deviant group practicing bida and kufr. It was founded by the British and now funded by ehudis working with RAW agents to destroy the ummah from within using social media, etc.

bujhee kom
March 2, 2017, 06:38 PM
Hello, Assalamu Alaikum dear sisters, brothers and all muslim and non-muslim friends,

Have anyone of you tried Muslim Dating Service? Visited Muslima.kom, Singlemuslim.kom etc?
My question is: How would you know who you are meeting on your date, during courtship etc., I mean with the Burqa on? I mean under the kala burqa, it could be a man meeting another man, then what?

May the Lord forgive me for thinking of this kind of questions...but it is a very legit inquiry. How can we engage in Muslim Dating Service with Burqa? Please discuss amongst yourselves. I am reading.

BengaliPagol
March 3, 2017, 04:14 AM
I am not a follower of Googli madhab, I think they are definitely the "wrong'un". They are a deviant group practicing bida and kufr. It was founded by the British and now funded by ehudis working with RAW agents to destroy the ummah from within using social media, etc.

how dare you diss googli madhab. I am the same distance that you go from ruku to sejdah away from doing a takfir on you.

shoibboshach
March 3, 2017, 04:53 AM
Lastly, I do not understand Arabic, however please provide me the chapter /verse and I will look it up.

That is precisely the point. Someone cannot be an expert or an authority of the Vedas who isn't even familiar with Sanskrit -let alone having a mastery over the original language of the texts. An expert or a scholar of Shakespeare must be well aquainted with the Shakespearean English. When someone has to rely on secondary or even tertiary sources that person cannot be considered an expert or an authoritative voice on that matter. That should be well understood.

This is only the linguistic part (of the Quranic text). An authority must be a scholar of pre-Islamic poetry for a sound understanding of Quranic language, expression, idioms, similes, parables, irony or even sarcasms. It also prerequisites an expert knowledge of the context of revelation for each verses, an expert knowledge of verses relating to commandmends and prohibitions, what are the universal, general, particular or the absolute verses, which are the abrogating and abrogated verses, which are historical or not bound by time or place etc. Then one must know how a particular verse or subject is explanied by the other verse/s or the conditional verses. He or she must be familiar with the commentaries of the Prophet and his scholarly Companions.

I hope you will realize this will require a serious and an exhaustive study and training -not a mere passing interest. Riliance on/of Google or secondary translations by an untrained mind and spirit simply doesn't qualify. We can accept the reality or simply be delusional or concieted.

shoibboshach
March 3, 2017, 05:00 AM
A non exhaustive work on apostasy:

By Abu Amina Elias

Question:
Islam prescribes the death penalty for apostasy. Does this mean there is no freedom of religion in Islam?

Answer:
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
Apostasy is divided into two types: major and minor. Muslim scholars, using the Prophetโ€™s traditions as their guide, have divided unbelief, idolatry, hypocrisy, and sin into major and minor categories. Likewise, there is a distinction between an apostate who intends to physically harm the community and an apostate who only spiritually harms himself.
Minor apostasy is when a person embraces Islam while knowing its virtues and later rejects it. There is no legal punishment for the minor apostate as long as they do not try to physically harm the Muslim community. Major apostasy is when a person embraces Islam while knowing its virtues and later rejects it and adds to this a call for violent rebellion against the Muslim authorities. Such a crime is equivalent to high treason and in its most severe case can carry the death penalty as an act of self-defense for the community.
Allah said: ุฅูู†ูŽู‘ ุงู„ูŽู‘ุฐููŠู†ูŽ ุขู…ูŽู†ููˆุง ุซูู…ูŽู‘ ูƒูŽููŽุฑููˆุง ุซูู…ูŽู‘ ุขู…ูŽู†ููˆุง ุซูู…ูŽู‘ ูƒูŽููŽุฑููˆุง ุซูู…ูŽู‘ ุงุฒู’ุฏูŽุงุฏููˆุง ูƒููู’ุฑู‹ุง ู„ูŽู‘ู…ู’ ูŠูŽูƒูู†ู ุงู„ู„ูŽู‘ู‡ู ู„ููŠูŽุบู’ููุฑูŽ ู„ูŽู‡ูู…ู’ ูˆูŽู„ูŽุง ู„ููŠูŽู‡ู’ุฏููŠูŽู‡ูู…ู’ ุณูŽุจููŠู„ู‹ุง
Verily, those who believed and then disbelieved, then believed and then disbelieved and increased in disbelief, never will Allah forgive them nor will He guide them to a right way.
Surah An-Nisa 4:137
In this verse, Allah describes a person who apostates from Islam twice and He does not prescribe legal punishment for him, but rather He only warns the apostate about severe punishment in the Hereafter. This demonstrates that the general rule is an apostate should be left alone, as the Quran prohibits compulsion in religion.
Allah said: ู„ูŽุง ุฅููƒู’ุฑูŽุงู‡ูŽ ูููŠ ุงู„ุฏูู‘ูŠู†ู ู‚ูŽุฏ ุชูŽู‘ุจูŽูŠูŽู‘ู†ูŽ ุงู„ุฑูู‘ุดู’ุฏู ู…ูู†ูŽ ุงู„ู’ุบูŽูŠูู‘
There is no compulsion in religion. The truth is distinct from misguidance.
Surah Al-Baqarah 2:256
And He said: ูˆูŽู‚ูู„ู ุงู„ู’ุญูŽู‚ูู‘ ู…ูู† ุฑูŽู‘ุจูู‘ูƒูู…ู’ ููŽู…ูŽู† ุดูŽุงุกูŽ ููŽู„ู’ูŠูุคู’ู…ูู† ูˆูŽู…ูŽู† ุดูŽุงุกูŽ ููŽู„ู’ูŠูŽูƒู’ููุฑู’
Say: The truth is from your Lord. So whoever wills let him believe, and whoever wills let him disbelieve.
Surah Al-Kahf 18:29
Because of this, the Prophet did not punish people simply because they rejected Islam.
Jabir reported: A bedouin came to the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, and gave the pledge of allegiance for embracing Islam. The next day he came with a fever and said, โ€œPlease cancel my pledge.โ€ The Prophet refused three times and he said: ุงู„ู’ู…ูŽุฏููŠู†ูŽุฉู ูƒูŽุงู„ู’ูƒููŠุฑู ุชูŽู†ู’ูููŠ ุฎูŽุจูŽุซูŽู‡ูŽุงุŒ ูˆูŽูŠูŽู†ู’ุตูŽุนู ุทูŽูŠูู‘ุจูู‡ูŽุง
Medina is like a furnace. It expels its impurities and collects what is pure.
Source: Sahih Bukhari 1784, Grade: Sahih (http://dailyhadith.abuaminaelias.com/2012/01/21/hadith-on-apostasy-evidence-the-prophet-did-not-execute-people-for-simple-apostasy-without-violent-treason/)
In this example, a man rejected Islam after embracing it but the Prophet did not apply legal punishment to him.
Regarding the major apostasy, the Prophet was clear in advising us that legal punishment is not applied to a minor apostate, but only a major apostate.
Abdullah ibn Masโ€™ud reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, applied legal punishment in the following case: ูˆูŽุงู„ุชูŽู‘ุงุฑููƒู ู„ูุฏููŠู†ูู‡ู ุงู„ู’ู…ูููŽุงุฑูู‚ู ู„ูู„ู’ุฌูŽู…ูŽุงุนูŽุฉู
The one who leaves his religion and separates from the community.
Source: Sahih Muslim 1676, Grade: Sahih (http://dailyhadith.abuaminaelias.com/2012/08/18/hadith-on-justice-the-punishment-of-execution-can-only-be-applied-to-three-grave-crimes/)
The reference to one who โ€œseparates from the communityโ€ (al-mufariq lil-jamaโ€™ah) indicates that a person is not legally punished simply for not practicing Islam, but rather for high treason against Muslim authorities. This is made even clearer in another narration in which the Prophet describes the major apostate as: ุฑูŽุฌูู„ูŒ ูŠูŽุฎู’ุฑูุฌู ู…ูู†ูŽ ุงู„ุฅูุณู’ู„ุงูŽู…ู ูŠูุญูŽุงุฑูุจู ุงู„ู„ูŽู‘ู‡ูŽ ุนูŽุฒูŽู‘ ูˆูŽุฌูŽู„ูŽู‘ ูˆูŽุฑูŽุณููˆู„ูŽู‡ู
A man who rejects Islam and wages war against Allah the Exalted and His Messenger.
Source: Sunan An-Nasaโ€™i 4048
Ibn Abbas said: ููŽู…ูŽู†ู’ ู‚ูŽุชูŽู„ูŽ ูˆูŽุฃูŽูู’ุณูŽุฏูŽ ูููŠ ุงู„ุฃูŽุฑู’ุถู ูˆูŽุญูŽุงุฑูŽุจูŽ ุงู„ู„ูŽู‘ู‡ูŽ ูˆูŽุฑูŽุณููˆู„ูŽู‡ู ุซูู…ูŽู‘ ู„ูŽุญูู‚ูŽ ุจูุงู„ู’ูƒูููŽู‘ุงุฑู ู‚ูŽุจู’ู„ูŽ ุฃูŽู†ู’ ูŠูู‚ู’ุฏูŽุฑูŽ ุนูŽู„ูŽูŠู’ู‡ู ู„ูŽู…ู’ ูŠูŽู…ู’ู†ูŽุนู’ู‡ู ุฐูŽู„ููƒูŽ ุฃูŽู†ู’ ูŠูู‚ูŽุงู…ูŽ ูููŠู‡ู ุงู„ู’ุญูŽุฏูู‘ ุงู„ูŽู‘ุฐููŠ ุฃูŽุตูŽุงุจูŽ
Whoever kills others, spreads corruption in the land, wages war against Allah and His Messenger, and he joins the unbelievers before he is subdued, then there is nothing to prevent the legal punishment from being applied to him because of what he did.
Source: Sunan An-Nasaโ€™i 4046
Indeed, some of the companions interpreted the phrase this way and described an apostate as: ุญูŽุงุฑูŽุจูŽ ุงู„ู„ู‘ูŽู‡ูŽ ูˆูŽุฑูŽุณููˆู„ูŽู‡ู ุตูŽู„ู‘ูŽู‰ ุงู„ู„ู‘ูŽู‡ู ุนูŽู„ูŽูŠู’ู‡ู ูˆูŽุณูŽู„ู‘ูŽู…ูŽ
One who wages are against Allah and His Messenger.
Source: Sฬฃahฬฃiฬ„hฬฃ al-Bukhaฬ„riฬ„ 4334, Grade: Sahih
What can be understood from these narrations is that legal punishment is only applied to a person who combines apostasy with high treason. This is because the Quran prohibits compulsion in religion as a general rule and because the believers should be the most restrained of the people when it comes to taking life.
Abdullah ibn Masโ€™ud reported: The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said: ุฃูŽุนูŽููู‘ ุงู„ู†ูŽู‘ุงุณู ู‚ูุชู’ู„ูŽุฉู‹ ุฃูŽู‡ู’ู„ู ุงู„ู’ุฅููŠู…ูŽุงู†ู
The most restrained of the people regarding killing are the people of faith.
Source: Musnad Ahmad 3720, Grade: Sahih (http://dailyhadith.abuaminaelias.com/2012/11/27/hadith-on-mercy-the-most-pardoning-of-people-regarding-killing-are-the-people-of-faith/)
Furthermore, cases of major apostasy do not necessitate the death penalty if a single Muslim seeks protection for the apostate.
Ibn Abbas reported: ูƒูŽุงู†ูŽ ุนูŽุจู’ุฏู ุงู„ู„ูŽู‘ู‡ู ุจู’ู†ู ุณูŽุนู’ุฏู ุจู’ู†ู ุฃูŽุจููŠ ุณูŽุฑู’ุญู ูŠูŽูƒู’ุชูุจู ู„ูุฑูŽุณููˆู„ู ุงู„ู„ูŽู‘ู‡ู ุตูŽู„ูŽู‘ู‰ ุงู„ู„ูŽู‘ู‡ู ุนูŽู„ูŽูŠู’ู‡ู ูˆูŽุณูŽู„ูŽู‘ู…ูŽ ููŽุฃูŽุฒูŽู„ูŽู‘ู‡ู ุงู„ุดูŽู‘ูŠู’ุทูŽุงู†ู ููŽู„ูŽุญูู‚ูŽ ุจูุงู„ู’ูƒูููŽู‘ุงุฑู ููŽุฃูŽู…ูŽุฑูŽ ุจูู‡ู ุฑูŽุณููˆู„ู ุงู„ู„ูŽู‘ู‡ู ุตูŽู„ูŽู‘ู‰ ุงู„ู„ูŽู‘ู‡ู ุนูŽู„ูŽูŠู’ู‡ู ูˆูŽุณูŽู„ูŽู‘ู…ูŽ ุฃูŽู†ู’ ูŠูู‚ู’ุชูŽู„ูŽ ูŠูŽูˆู’ู…ูŽ ุงู„ู’ููŽุชู’ุญู ููŽุงุณู’ุชูŽุฌูŽุงุฑูŽ ู„ูŽู‡ู ุนูุซู’ู…ูŽุงู†ู ุจู’ู†ู ุนูŽููŽู‘ุงู†ูŽ ููŽุฃูŽุฌูŽุงุฑูŽู‡ู ุฑูŽุณููˆู„ู ุงู„ู„ูŽู‘ู‡ู ุตูŽู„ูŽู‘ู‰ ุงู„ู„ูŽู‘ู‡ู ุนูŽู„ูŽูŠู’ู‡ู ูˆูŽุณูŽู„ูŽู‘ู…ูŽ
Abdullah ibn Saโ€™d ibn Abi Sarh would write to the Messenger of Allah but the devil deceived him and he joined the unbelievers. The Messenger of Allah ordered that he should be killed on the day of liberation, but Uthman ibn Affan sought protection for him, so the Messenger of Allah granted him protection.
Source: Sunan Abu Dawud 4358, Grade: Sahih (http://dailyhadith.abuaminaelias.com/2012/11/15/hadith-on-pardon-the-prophet-pardons-a-man-due-to-the-intercession-of-uthman-ibn-affan/)


In this example, a man embraced Islam and then rejected it by joining the idolaters of Mecca who at the time were waging war against the Muslims. When Mecca surrendered to the Prophet without a fight, Uthman ibn Affan sought protection for this apostate and the Prophet honored this covenant. This is because, as a general rule, the protection granted by a single Muslim should be honored by all Muslims.
Ali ibn Abu Talib reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said: ุฐูู…ูŽู‘ุฉู ุงู„ู’ู…ูุณู’ู„ูู…ููŠู†ูŽ ูˆูŽุงุญูุฏูŽุฉูŒ ูŠูŽุณู’ุนูŽู‰ ุจูู‡ูŽุง ุฃูŽุฏู’ู†ูŽุงู‡ูู…ู’
The covenant of the Muslims is one covenant, and they strive to fulfill it among the least of them.
Source: Sunan Al-Kubra Al-Bayhaqi 15464, Grade: Sahih (http://dailyhadith.abuaminaelias.com/2013/01/17/hadith-on-covenants-the-civil-protection-of-the-muslims-is-one-man-or-woman-free-or-slave/)

In conclusion, the death penalty for apostasy is restricted by the Prophetโ€™s other statements and actions which make clear that this punishment applies only to those who commit high treason against the Muslim community.
Success comes from Allah, and Allah knows best.


http://abuaminaelias.com/did-the-prophet-kill-apostates-who-convert-to-another-religion/ (http://dailyhadith.abuaminaelias.com/2012/11/15/hadith-on-pardon-the-prophet-pardons-a-man-due-to-the-intercession-of-uthman-ibn-affan/)


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Jizya was not a discriminatory or an oppressive tax. Muslims paid zakat and most men of certain age were required to join military campaigns. Non-muslims citizens were exempted from this and were simply required to pay the protection and welfare tax, instead. Those Christians or others who fought side by side with muslims in military campaigns were not required to pay Jizya tax. Moreover, they received an equal share of the war booty! Please, ponder on this!

Navo
March 3, 2017, 10:03 AM
In light of this discussion and as Women's Day is coming up, I thought it would be material to share with you summaries of landmark decisions by the Supreme Court of Bangladesh on women's rights. The first case concerns the rights of sex workers and the second regarding the imposition of headscarves and veils. The latter is a particularly important case study of social coercion and public shaming and how effective it is, even against ostensibly 'strong, independent' women like a Headmistress of a Government school. There are also three significant decisions on the legality of fatwas and the execution of extra-judicial punishments pursuant thereto -- but that is a discussion for another day.

1. Bangladesh Society for the Enforcement of Human Rights (BSEHR) and Ors vs. Government of Bangladesh and Ors., 53 DLR (HCD), judgement delivered on 14 March, 2000:

Summary of the Facts: In 1999, a large number of sex-workers were forcefully evicted from their residence at Tanbazar and Nimtali, Naryanganj and some of them were relocated to Kashimpur Vagrant Home. A writ petition was filed on behalf of these sex-workers by a group of NGOs engaged in protecting the rights of vulnerable women. The case turned on whether this eviction and relocation violated the womenโ€™s fundamental rights to life and non-discrimination. In its judgment, the High Court Division first clarified that prostitution is not absolutely prohibited under Bangladeshi law. The Suppression of Immoral Traffic Act, 1933 (Bengal Act VI of 1933), the Penal Code and the Prevention of Oppression Against Women and Children Act 2000 sanctions, inter alia, the keeping and management of brothels as well as the coercion and abduction of women and minor girls into prostitution. However, this does not amount to outlawing the activities of sex-workers engaging in sexual intercourse with consent (para 10).

In the face of moralizing arguments by the respondents, the High Court Division of the Supreme Court of Bangladesh held that regardless of the morality of their profession, sex workers are no different from other citizens of the land and were thus entitled to equal protection of rights within the law. Md. Fazlul Karim, J went on to find that comprehensively depriving persons of their means to livelihood was tantamount to depriving them of their right to life under the Constitution (para 12). In addition, by being forcefully and illegally evicted, the fundamental rights of the tenants of Tanbazar and Nimtali to privacy and security in their own homes was violated (para 15). Moreover, the relocation of many of the women into a shelter was illegal as the measures taken were against adult women against their will and were not compliant with the Vagrancy Act, 1943 (paras 23, 25, 31). In ordering the release of the sex-workers from the shelter, the Court admonished the police force and the local administration for their illegal actions and deliberate inactions that rendered them institutionally complicit in the unlawful ousting of the women from their home (paras 32-35, 37, 38) and encouraged them to pursue the rehabilitation of these women through less coercive means by ameliorating the conditions that give rise to prostitution (para 36).

Quotable Quote: โ€œ โ€ฆ[T]he sex-workers prostitutes operate apparently allowing sexual intercourse with consent and their profession though socially looked down upon but the same apparently is not an illegal one under the law of the land. The preamble of our Constitution pledges high ideals of trust and faith in the Almighty Allah and that the State religion is Islam but we are not subjected to Shariat Law making sexual intercourse even with consent between men and women, other than husband and wife, a heinous offence of Jina/fornication punishable even with stoning to death but the same is not the law of the land to be enforced in the Courts of Law.โ€ (para 10)

2. Advocate Md. Salahuddin Dolon vs. Government of Bangladesh and Others, 39 CLC (HCD), judgement delivered on 8 April 2010

Summary of the Facts: In 2009, reports of an Upazila Education Officer making crude and sexually explicit remarks to the Headmistress of a Government Primary School attracted widespread attention and criticism. In a meeting between the Officer and the schoolโ€™s teachers, he further directed that all the female teachers must henceforth attend school wearing headscarves (para 3). The Petitioners subsequently commenced public interest litigation on behalf of the victim so that appropriate punitive action would be taken against the Officer and guidelines would be framed to protect women working in government organisations from harassment.

The High Court Division considered the implications of an imposed dress code as well as the verbal abuse. Syed Mahmud Hossain, J ruled that the imposition of dress-codes on women affronted their fundamental right under the Constitution to personal liberty (para 9), non-discrimination, freedom of expression and religion (paras 12-13) as well as privacy (para 14). Harassing women for their choice not to wear a headscarf was in contravention of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and was in violation of Bangladeshโ€™s obligations as a State party to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR), the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights (ICESCR) and the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women (CEDAW) (paras 15-21). While these international conventions have not been incorporated into national legislation, they aide in the interpretation of fundamental rights that havenโ€™t been elaborated upon in the Constitution. The โ€œsexually colouredโ€ remarks violated both Guideline 4 of BNWLA vs. Government of Bangladesh and Others, 14 BLC (HCD) 694, 29 BLD (HCD) 415 [a case where the HCD laid out guidelines to sanction sexual harassment at the workplace] as well as the Upazila Education Officerโ€™s terms of conduct under the Government Servants (Discipline and Appeals) Rules 1985 and Rule 27A of the Government Servants (Conduct) Rules, 1979 that requires the maintenance of official decorum and the dignity of female colleagues (paras 24-25).

In the instant case, the victim forgave the perpetrator for insulting her but the judgment had far-reaching consequences for public and private educational institutions as the Ministry of Education was instructed to ensure that similar harassment does not take place in such institutions and that women working in such institutions are not compelled to wear a veil or cover their head against their will.

Quotable Quote: โ€œIt is the personal choice of a woman to wear a veil or to cover her head. Any such attempt to control a womanโ€™s movement and expression and threatening a woman for her failure to do so is clearly a violation of her right to personal liberty. In Bangladesh there has been no uniform practice of veiling or head covering among women. However, in recent years, there have seen such attempts to forcibly impose dress codes not only by private persons and extremist political organizations, claiming to act on the basis of religion, but also by persons in authority, including those in public office. In the absence of any legal sanction, attempts to coerce or impose a dress code on women clearly amounts to a form of sexual harassment. To the extent the derogatory term used against the teacher was sexually coloured and it also targeted her as a woman by requiring her to cover her head, a requirement which was not made to any other male teacher in the school and such action also amounts to sexual harassment and to a form of gender discrimination.โ€ (paras 9-11)

Jadukor
March 3, 2017, 11:20 AM
Quotable Quote: โ€œIt is the personal choice of a woman to wear a veil or to cover her head. Any such attempt to control a womanโ€™s movement and expression and threatening a woman for her failure to do so is clearly a violation of her right to personal liberty. In Bangladesh there has been no uniform practice of veiling or head covering among women. However, in recent years, there have seen such attempts to forcibly impose dress codes not only by private persons and extremist political organizations, claiming to act on the basis of religion, but also by persons in authority, including those in public office. In the absence of any legal sanction, attempts to coerce or impose a dress code on women clearly amounts to a form of sexual harassment. To the extent the derogatory term used against the teacher was sexually coloured and it also targeted her as a woman by requiring her to cover her head, a requirement which was not made to any other male teacher in the school and such action also amounts to sexual harassment and to a form of gender discrimination.โ€ (paras 9-11)
Shabash Supreme Court

ReZ_1
March 3, 2017, 11:32 AM
So in short what can we summarize from this debatable thread?

tonmoy.dhaka
March 3, 2017, 01:17 PM
Proud of the Supreme court verdict on the cases pointed above my Navo.

shoibboshach, Personally myself and a lot of posters here would love to point out โ€œno compulsion in religionโ€ philosophy. Where as a vast majority of so called scholars in this world would point out many sources to justify aggression against any person who is convicted of apostasy. Hence again as we stated already, the women in the video is fully with in her rights to make her own interpretation and you should not be aggressive against her .

Secondly, I would again disagree that the only way to understand the religion is by learning the complexity of Arabic language. In 1913, Tagore became the first non-European to win the Nobel Prize for Literature, largely for the for his translated English Gitanjali. I have read Shakespeare (Tempest) in modern English and understood it. Anyways ofcourse l would take help from different sources (I do not claim to understand everything), but I have a problem when anyone claims that Quran is such a difficult text that only few chosen ones are capable to understand and comprehend it.

shoibboshach
March 3, 2017, 01:21 PM
The way Islam is preached in Bangladesh is a very real problem. I've been stuck in traffic jams and unintentionally had to hear a few waaz here and there. Frankly, I never knew 'scholars' could speak in such vulgar ways. Extremely disgusting.



We should see everything in Bangladesh within a specific cultural context. It's not just about the inadequately educated and intellectually not gifted people accepted as "alim" giving public speech or unsound Islamic legal opinions using obscene or vulgar language but all sections of contemporary Bangladeshi way of life and to a certain extent that of all South Asia. Just think how the police or law department personnel behave in Bangladesh. They are most definitely not a true or prime example of how law and justice agencies should be. Our politicians or "parliamentarians" often use vulgar language and serious misconducts during a live session in the parliament or a TV talk show. These are not the most civilized people on this planet. Our current culture is to be blamed. So, you cannot take the case of a few half-educated "scholars" and their language or behaviour in isolation. Unfortunately these are the realities in our countries. Nor can we take certain western ideas and superimpose them in our cultures. I can see a new militant and abusive feminism at play in Bangladesh (just take the examples of Rubel-Happy or Arafat Sunny case) . They often backfire. We must find our own organic and local solution and start working at a grass root level. We also must be patient and dedicated in our works and thoughts and not expect an overnight change.

shoibboshach
March 3, 2017, 02:03 PM
@tonmoy.dhaka

A translated Gitanjali or Tempest in modern English shouldn't be equated with the reading of a classical text such as the Holy Quran and the extraction of the legal and moral rulings or the related Science of Jurisprudence. You simply just cannot do that. You can read and understand Tempest but could you go and teach it at an university without the right credentials? Also, who mentioned about "the only few chosen ones"? Where did you get that from? It is open to many. But one must earn it; simply just claiming it won't work.

You are still going around a circle. I don't think you're really interested in a meaningful dialogue.

tonmoy.dhaka
March 3, 2017, 03:27 PM
@tonmoy.dhaka

A translated Gitanjali or Tempest in modern English shouldn't be equated with the reading of a classical text such as the Holy Quran and the extraction of the legal and moral rulings or the related Science of Jurisprudence. You simply just cannot do that. You can read and understand Tempest but could you go and teach it at an university without the right credentials? Also, who mentioned about "the only few chosen ones"? Where did you get that from? It is open to many. But one must earn it; simply just claiming it won't work.

You are still going around a circle. I don't think you're really interested in a meaningful dialogue.

As you say sir!!!
Any further discussion of the topic is futile since we have our mind made up. Have a nice weekend.

al Furqaan
March 3, 2017, 06:17 PM
Perhaps one should actually hear from a muslim woman instead of discussing hijabs in a sausage forum. How much does a man really know what its like to wear a hijab?

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/MQpQY9QPxk8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Zeeshan
March 3, 2017, 08:25 PM
bhai leave me out of this. You guys know a lot more than me and I made a mistake by getting involved in this. My expertise is cricket and not religion, social studies, Bangladesh.

Religion is a personal matter. BC is free forum with different opinions and ideas.

thank you :up:

That's debatable too.

iDumb
March 4, 2017, 02:09 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C52gE73XQAEztn6.jpg

Anyone find anything wrong with this pic?

Ppl react to these sort of things when they have nothing better to do with their lives, lighting twitter on fire...

Harmless pic with caption "this is the future of liberals"

Do not let TV/twitter/facebook tell you how to think.....Spread the hate, racism and Islamophobia.

Ajfar
March 4, 2017, 03:59 PM
Did anyone post Momtaz's 'Burqa Pora Meye Amai Pagol Kore-che' song in this thread yet? It's appropriate for this thread.

Fazal
March 6, 2017, 09:21 AM
Did anyone post Momtaz's 'Burqa Pora Meye Amai Pagol Kore-che' song in this thread yet? It's appropriate for this thread.

Give us the link.


btw .... what is the final conclusion? Like it or Hate it?

Rifat
March 6, 2017, 11:18 AM
@iDumb's pic, nothing wrong with two different people minding their own business and sitting next to each other in a bus. that's called real life! happens all the time :lol:. If that wasn't the norm and society reacting to it then we are indeed heading towards the south :down:

tonmoy.dhaka
March 7, 2017, 10:24 AM
@iDumb's pic, nothing wrong with two different people minding their own business and sitting next to each other in a bus. that's called real life! happens all the time :lol:. If that wasn't the norm and society reacting to it then we are indeed heading towards the south :down:

Good...Now lets look at it from another perspective.... so why cannot this also be the norm in muslim majority countries (MMC)? So by your own admission we (MMC) are heading towards south?

al Furqaan
March 8, 2017, 01:59 AM
http://money.cnn.com/2017/03/07/news/nike-pro-hijab/index.html

Nike is now attempting to profit off the exploitation/modesty (depending on who you ask) of Muslim women athletes!

iDumb
March 8, 2017, 02:09 AM
yeah you tell zahra lari she is not free and you are coming to rescue her by taking her hijab away...

You go "REAL MAN" of this site...

There is a term for ppl with certain type of thinking... it's called LOSERS.

Let's all celebrate women's day by snatching hijab one at a time...

Navo
March 8, 2017, 08:39 AM
@iDumb, yeah, or Kubra Dagli, who won gold in one of the competitions at the world taekwondo championship: https://www.facebook.com/viralthread/videos/689106007928752/?pnref=story

tonmoy.dhaka
March 8, 2017, 09:13 AM
The thread is about Burqa not Hijab...

shoibboshach
March 8, 2017, 10:28 AM
Burqa (modest, shapeless and loose garments) is absolutely a praiseworthy practice -if it is done with the right intention. For me, Burqa and Hijab is synonymous although Hijab is conventionally understood to be the headscarf.

However, personally, I am against the concept of Niqaab (veiling of the face). I do understand that according to the Hanbali madhab it is an accepted or even a desired religious practice. The other three major Schools of Jurisprudence don't require the practice of Niqaab. And, according to many scholars muslim women should avoid the practice of Niqaab in many non-muslim countries. Today, people of the Wahhabi background are the very strict practitioners of the Niqaab.

al Furqaan
March 8, 2017, 01:55 PM
The thread is about Burqa not Hijab...

whats the difference?