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Arnab
May 24, 2004, 10:43 AM
Found on a weblog discussing Nick Berg's murder:

And for Muslims, who are definitely going to say 'this isn't the real Islam':

"When you meet the unbelievers, strike off their heads; then when you have made wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives." Surat Mohammed:4

Grow up, and leave the 7th century.

Update:

Some angry readers have interpreted the above last statement as an
attack against fellow Muslims. That was not what I had intended. I
usually do my best to avoid theological debates on Islam for safety
considerations but I'll indulge them just this once. My purpose was to point out that Islam indeed excuses such barbaric acts. This is not the same as saying that all Muslims believe in such acts or commit them, moderate Muslims exist, but Islam is not moderate. Islamic fundamentalists and terrorists have not deviated from Islam, in fact all their practices are derived from the Quran and Hadith.

So yes, Islam is the problem here. Poverty, economic conditions, abuse by so called colonialism, and political frustration are not. Similar conditions elsewhere in the world have not prompted non-Muslims to commit suicide bombings or fly planes into towers. Islam, along with favourable cultural, tribal, and social values existing in the Arab world has prompted that drive. Islam and the Quran alone are not the root cause.

The solution is not however to alienate all Muslims, or to expel them, or annihilate them. It is up to 'moderate' Muslims and their clerics to carefully examine their scriptures and to reform, the same way Jews and Christians did. The Quran is a book, and its tenets were appropriate for a certain era in history. Most of it does not apply today, so it is not 'untouchable'. You either believe in the whole book, together with its violent verses, or you should stop claiming to be a consistent believer. You cannot select verses which appeal to your argument and ignore the rest.

How would you explain these, for instance:

"The just retribution for those who fight Allah and His messenger, and commit horrendous crimes, is to be killed, or crucified, or to have their hands and feet cut off on alternate sides, or to be banished from the land. This is to humiliate them in this life, then they suffer a far worse retribution in the hereafter." Surat Al-Ma'ida:33

"O believers, do not take Jews and Christians as allies, they are
allies of one another. Those among you who ally themselves with these belong with them." Surat Al-Ma'ida:51

I can go on and on, but I would rather not. I have intensively examined the Quran and Sunna, and I might have a few things that would scare some pious believers. Maybe, some other time, when I'm in a safer environment, I would devote a website or a book to the subject.

[Edited on 24-5-2004 by Arnab]

Nasif
May 24, 2004, 11:41 AM
The guy has no clue.

Chapter: Muhammad [#47]
Verse: 4
If you encounter (in war) those who disbelieve, you may strike the necks. If you take them as captives you may set them free or ransom them, until the war ends. Had GOD willed, He could have granted you victory, without war. But He thus tests you by one another. As for those who get killed in the cause of GOD, He will never put their sacrifice to waste.

This guy doesn't have any idea what he is talking about. He says he has studied Quran, but it seems like he is just posting and twisting the words here to fit his motive.

He posts part of the verse of sura Muhammad (47): 4, to fit this agenda. The verse here is talking about a war, and talking to the soldiers. The verse is not telling muslims to go on killing spree. This killing is only justified during a war encounter. He has posted half a verse to fulfil his agenda.

He does the same thing for his other quote of Quran, Maida(5):33. He posts one verse and leaves out the whole context of this verse. I will post the whole thing here

Chapter: The Feast (Al Ma'edah) [#5]
Verses: 27-33
Recite for them the true history of Adam's two sons. They made an offering, and it was accepted from one of them, but not from the other. He said, 'I will surely kill you.' He (other brother) said, GOD accepts only from the righteous. 'If you extend your hand to kill me, I am not extending my hand to kill you. For I reverence GOD, Lord of the universe. I want you, not me, to bear my sin and your sin, then you end up with the dwellers of Hell. Such is the requital for the transgressors.' His ego provoked him into killing his brother. He killed him, and ended up with the losers. GOD then sent a raven to scratch the soil, to teach him how to bury his brother's corpse. He said, 'Woe to me; I failed to be as intelligent as this raven, and bury my brother's corpse.' He became ridden with remorse.
Because of this, we decreed for the Children of Israel that anyone who murders any person who had not committed murder or horrendous crimes, it shall be as if he murdered all the people. And anyone who spares a life, it shall be as if he spared the lives of all the people. Our messengers went to them with clear proofs and revelations, but most of them, after all this, are still transgressing. The just retribution for those who fight GOD and His messenger, and commit horrendous crimes, is to be killed, or crucified, or to have their hands and feet cut off on alternate sides, or to be banished from the land. This is to humiliate them in this life, then they suffer a far worse retribution in the Hereafter. Exempted are those who repent before you overcome them. You should
know that GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

God is giving the authorization for capital punishment here. Starting from the first murder (Adam's one son killed other), God describes the grossness of murder and tells us that when capital punishment is justified.

On his next quote (5:51) he purposefully leaves a critical word "certain" out of the verse.

Chapter: The Feast (Al Ma'edah) [#5]
Verse: 51
O you who believe, do not take certain Jews and Christians as allies; these are allies of one another. Those among you who ally themselves with these belong with them. GOD does not guide the transgressors.

Ther order here is against some jews and christians who joined forces against muslims (relates to Muhammad's time in Madina).

It is quite clear what he is trying to do. While he posts this, he forgets to post the verse that sets the rule for befriending non-muslims.

Chapter: The Test (Al Mumtahanah) [#60]
Verses: 8-9
GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable. GOD enjoins you only from befriending those who fight you because of religion, evict you from your homes, and band together with others to banish you. You shall not befriend them. Those who befriend them are the transgressors.

This guy is a real crook. God has described his kind already:
[3:78]: "Among them are those who twist their tongues to imitate the scripture, that you may think it is from the scripture, when it is not from the scripture, and they claim that it is from GOD, when it is not from GOD. Thus, they utter lies and attribute them to GOD, knowingly."

Arnab
May 24, 2004, 12:01 PM
That's a effing good analysis nasif, I will see if I can post your reply on that weblog.

BTW, I found it on a weblog of an Iraqi Dentist, here:

http://healingiraq.blogspot.com/

[Edited on 24-5-2004 by Arnab]

fab
May 24, 2004, 06:26 PM
So yes, Islam is the problem here. Poverty, economic conditions, abuse by so called colonialism, and political frustration are not. Similar conditions elsewhere in the world have not prompted non-Muslims to commit suicide bombings or fly planes into towers. Suicide tactics in warfare is not monopolised by Islam alone. Hasn't this dude heard of the Japanese kamakazis (no idea how to spell that)? Nor is terrorism (the latest act which has been perpetrated by Christians and Jews). Blowing up a wedding.. shooting a 3 year old girl in the head.. If that's not terrorism, then what is!

Anyhow I always take people who claim to have 'studied the Quran' and who use verses from it to prove their point with a huge grain of salt. They normally (as nasif pointed out), selectively use statements out of context and take the meaning literally. Well hey buddy, guess what, Jesus told us to eat his flesh and drink his blood. That obviously means he wants us all to be cannibals! Sheesh.

Arnab
May 24, 2004, 06:42 PM
I agree with him on a few issues:

1. Those quotes in Islam are not for our times. Clearly, they were specifically meant for the Arabs in the 7th A.D. and were based on what they saw in their own narrow geographical sphere during a narrow scope of time in the vast expanse of human history. And no, just claiming "The Quran is timeless" is not a valid argument.

2. It is almost futile to correctly extract the context of those verses and then extrapolate them on to our vastly changed complex, modern world. A person who is educated in modern knowledge will interpret the verses differently than an uneducated person. The nature of interpretation is completely dependent upon the interpreter's social background, his knowledge of modern science and modern society, etc. We have many choices to remedy this. What the author of that blog suggests is that we have to ensure that a certain "moderate" version of these interpretations is widely accepted.

My personal suggestion is pretty straihgtforward and way too ahead of my time: Ditch all the anachronistic religions altogether. They do more harm than good and complicate stuffs beyond repair.

[Edited on 24-5-2004 by Arnab]

Huda
May 25, 2004, 05:01 AM
a muslim who stuides the quran feels the reward inside his iman, heart but a non bleiver like him will not understadn the deeper meaning, except the surface

al Furqaan
May 26, 2004, 03:08 PM
i have read the bible and have found much more violent passages in the bible than the most violent ayat in the quran. i will find them and post them here for those who don't believe me (if there are any here).

the point i'm trying to make is that you will find the most anit-islamic people to be 'bible-believing' jews and christians. they really only believe parts of their scriptures and ignore the rest.

reverse_swing
May 26, 2004, 03:16 PM
thats true.

btw have u read Barnabas's Bible?
This one is different from others.

reverse_swing
May 26, 2004, 03:24 PM
Our Prophet's name Muhammad is mentioned by the exact name in the Gospel of Barnabas.

Nasif
May 26, 2004, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by reverse_swing
Our Prophet's name Muhammad is mentioned by the exact name in the Gospel of Barnabas.

Unfortunately, Church does not accept Barnabas Gospel as authentic one. :duh:

al Furqaan
May 26, 2004, 08:23 PM
yeah the barnabas is supposed to be 'false' as concerned with the churchs.

btw, anyone red the hindu holy text, gita or whatever...i have heard that our prophet (saw) is mentioned by allusion to name in that book. they refer to the praised one i.e. 'ahmad' another variant of muhammad. it also mentions his fathers name and others. anyone heard about this...supposedly it is quite well known.

Hasib
May 28, 2004, 04:25 AM
here is a few pages from Barnabas

http://barnabas.net/barnabasP54.html


http://barnabas.net/barnabasP55.html

here is the chpter index
http://barnabas.net/chapter_index.htm