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adamnsu
August 20, 2018, 05:25 AM
Salam all.

My brother in law and his wife are performing Hajj. May all have a safe and accepted Hajj InshahAllah.

I heard a comparatively low turn out this year compared to the past few years.

My Father has bought a bull and a goat, the latter fully for his grandson. I miss Qurbani Eid in Bangladesh.

Tigers_eye
August 20, 2018, 10:29 AM
Low turnout? May be, many Bangladeshis (and others) for one reason or another couldn't make the trip/journey. Very hot in Saudi Arabia. Fear of retaliation by the Yemenis, Al Qaeda, ISIL etc. My sister is there. Al Hamdulillah. May Allah accept her and everyone's Hajj.

+++
At any rate, Eid Mubarak to all. This is very special event and a reminder for us. Sacrificing (not only the animals) time and money for the sake of our Creator UNCONDITIONALLY. Understanding the examples of Sacrifices of Ibrahim (A), Ismael (A), and Hajer (R' anha).

When a command comes from Allah Subhana watala, we are not to question. That is the lesson. In the Quran, how many commands have come for us? Are we executing these commands properly? Starting with Prayers. A person praying without knowing what he is praying/saying and a person praying with knowing; can they be the same? What do we need to do?
May Allah Subhana watala give us the patience to be steadfast on his command and execute them starting with our selves. May we have the knowledge to do the good and stay away from evil.

ToBeFair
August 20, 2018, 11:31 AM
Total hujjaj this year was about 1.9 million. Less than 2 million.

The most number was hujjaj was on year 2011 (1433) when I performed hajj. That year it was 3.3 million. It was very tough. After performing the tawaf of hajj on eid day, which had took more than four hours for me on the roof of the haram, I had no energy to even pray the two rakats of tawaf.

Plus after stoning in jamaraat on the eid day, we got lost from our tour leader. From there, we had no gps nothing - no taxi - had to walk many kilometers to find our way to our hotel in aziziyah.

Every hajj is a story and the story never gets old.

iDumb
August 20, 2018, 11:44 AM
Eid Mubarak to all.

though i like meat. it is hard for me to see all the animals get slaughtered and the open celebration of human cruelty during eid ul adha.

But i guess that's evolution and that's the food chain meant to be.

Tigers_eye
August 20, 2018, 11:51 AM
Eid Mubarak to all.

though i like meat. it is hard for me to see all the animals get slaughtered and the open celebration of human cruelty during eid ul adha.

But i guess that's evolution and that's the food chain meant to be.
I don't understand "celebration of human cruelty during eid ul Adha". What is it and who does it?

Any type of cruelty shouldn't be celebrated.

tonmoy.dhaka
August 20, 2018, 12:21 PM
It is sacrifice and not celebration from my limited understanding.

Given that I am NOT at all religious so may I dare ask why cannot we question God?
I find the story behind the event an extremely cruel joke!! I know a lot of people explains it as a mercy from God but I fail to accept that explanation.

Anyways Eid Mubarak...

ToBeFair
August 20, 2018, 01:00 PM
It is hypocritical to bring the topic of cruelty on the occasion of Eid Al-Adha.

Aside from Muslims, there are 5.6 billion people on this earth. Those people are always eating all types of meat and fish. And I am sure you cannot eat any meat or fish without killing them first. And yet rarely I hear about animal cruelty.

But when a Muslim wants to carry out an annual religious ritual by sacrificing an animal, some start screaming about animal cruelty. And some ignorant Muslims join them.

Before Tonmoy and idumb scream animal cruelty, I challenge them first to stop eating any fish or meat or anything that requires taking life and become complete vegan. Otherwise, your barking about animal cruelty say nothing but expose the hypocrisy of your own self.

When we slaughter an animal for qurbani, at least we get close to the animal, get intimately involved in the process of taking a life (which is never easy), and thank Allah for blessing us with the provision of meat, which comes through taking a life, a fact that we seldom remember while eating. But during qurbani, we remember it, and become grateful to Allah for his blessing.

On the other hand, people like Tonmoy and iDubm, who I am sure never slaughtered an animal, happily sit at McDonald and like, almost never think that those steaks and burgers came though sacrificing animals lives, but never forget to guilt trap and shame induce Muslims on the occasion of Eid Al Adha, with the shame grenade of animal cruelty. Give me a break.

Tigers_eye
August 20, 2018, 02:01 PM
...
Given that I am NOT at all religious so may I dare ask why cannot we question God?

Anyways Eid Mubarak...
You can question God any time you wish as much as you want. To follow or not to follow a command is totally up to you. God is Just. He will reward you according to your deeds. Anything you do or not do, doesn't benefit or harm God. It only will have a consequence on your soul, if you believe in the judgment day. :up: And if you don't believe in the Judgment day, you are free my Man. He has given you the power to choose whatever you wish to do. I, or anyone who walked in this earth can NOT change you. :big_hug:

SportingBD
August 20, 2018, 02:49 PM
Eid Mubarak to everyone. May Allah grant peace to this world.

iDumb
August 20, 2018, 06:06 PM
It is hypocritical to bring the topic of cruelty on the occasion of Eid Al-Adha.
Yes you are right.

And some ignorant Muslims join them. Before idumb scream animal cruelty, .

I understand your reaction to my post in the context. Before I go further I should mention, I am a practicing Muslim but not a good one. And similarly like you, I am very well aware of intentional Islamophobic posts by anyone... ("muslim", or not)

My intentions for my post (though you are right still probably shouldn't belong there) is to have a maybe a bit of open discussion....

I started saying I love meat. I don't preoccupy myself with animal rights or animal treatment when sitting in Mcdonalds or buying meat from grocery store. But I have come to embrace a form of civilized consumption where I buy meat without the sight of how it was prepared. I am the animal from higher food chain - and I guess that's my right.

But during Eid - videos, pictures, dressing up animals and finally slaughtering cows in open fields in front of everyone just comes to limelight.. and briefly just hits a bit of my conscience and I am become a bit more aware....

Though it is not practiced, there are more less cruel way of killing something. For example, before slaughtering, an animal can be given strong dose of sedatives and pain medications so they do not feel what's coming to them. you can argue the cost, logistics, health effects on the consumer or a halality of the process but that's how I feel.

But it is what it is. We are the top of the food chain. this is how the world was meant to be.


Eid mubarak and hope you guys enjoy preparing and eating all the delicious food.

tonmoy.dhaka
August 20, 2018, 07:27 PM
You can question God any time you wish as much as you want. To follow or not to follow a command is totally up to you. God is Just. He will reward you according to your deeds. Anything you do or not do, doesn't benefit or harm God. It only will have a consequence on your soul, if you believe in the judgment day. :up: And if you don't believe in the Judgment day, you are free my Man. He has given you the power to choose whatever you wish to do. I, or anyone who walked in this earth can NOT change you. :big_hug:

He has given me the power to choose? Are u sure?
Also would love to get your views on the story behind the Sacrifice...
Do u think it is immense mercy of God or a cruel joke played by God? :up:

tonmoy.dhaka
August 20, 2018, 07:29 PM
Before Tonmoy and idumb scream animal cruelty.

I am a meat eater and never pretend otherwise.. neither did I mention anything about animal cruelty...
Read before making stupid comments..

Tausif
August 20, 2018, 07:49 PM
Perhaps some things from this discussion should be discussed in another topic.

Eid Mubarak to all.

iDumb
August 20, 2018, 07:55 PM
Read before making stupid comments..

He did not attack you. Stop being aggresive for no reason. We all know your comfort zone and your choice thread participation.

This is a celebratory EID thread. Keep out if you can't be nice. He put your name there because of the way you replied.

I am gonna report all non related eid/qurbani/hajj posts in this thread subsequently to the mods here.

iDumb
August 20, 2018, 07:56 PM
Perhaps some things from this discussion should be discussed in another topic.

Eid Mubarak to all.

I agree. thank you.

Eid mubarak to all.

Yankees
August 20, 2018, 10:29 PM
Eid Mubarak fellas.

Jadukor
August 20, 2018, 11:41 PM
Eid Mubarak to all BC members!

ToBeFair
August 21, 2018, 12:30 AM
Yes you are right.



I understand your reaction to my post in the context. Before I go further I should mention, I am a practicing Muslim but not a good one. And similarly like you, I am very well aware of intentional Islamophobic posts by anyone... ("muslim", or not)

My intentions for my post (though you are right still probably shouldn't belong there) is to have a maybe a bit of open discussion....

I started saying I love meat. I don't preoccupy myself with animal rights or animal treatment when sitting in Mcdonalds or buying meat from grocery store. But I have come to embrace a form of civilized consumption where I buy meat without the sight of how it was prepared. I am the animal from higher food chain - and I guess that's my right.

But during Eid - videos, pictures, dressing up animals and finally slaughtering cows in open fields in front of everyone just comes to limelight.. and briefly just hits a bit of my conscience and I am become a bit more aware....

Though it is not practiced, there are more less cruel way of killing something. For example, before slaughtering, an animal can be given strong dose of sedatives and pain medications so they do not feel what's coming to them. you can argue the cost, logistics, health effects on the consumer or a halality of the process but that's how I feel.

But it is what it is. We are the top of the food chain. this is how the world was meant to be.


Eid mubarak and hope you guys enjoy preparing and eating all the delicious food.

Regarding civilized consumption, it is only from our limited perception and optics we are concluding that a certain form of killing an animal is more humane. As for research, research can be presented supporting different methods. Additionally, research is not always unbiased. Also the experience of death itself is subjective. Even if research says that method A is more humane than method B, a sheep may find method B to be easier for dying. Unless you experience different processes of dying, no one can actually conclude for you what is more humane of dying. Optics and perception are irrelevant.

Therefore, since we believe that God is the Most Merciful, and since we believe that His Messenger Muhammad (peace be upon him) was sent as nothing but as mercy for the whole universe, we follow his method of execution. This might not create the greatest of optics, but we rely on what we believe as divine revelation, not optics, as objective proof.

iDumb
August 21, 2018, 12:44 AM
Therefore, since we believe that God is the Most Merciful...

Tobefair, your first post on hypocrisy whether your meant it or not, had some merit. your last post has a lot to be desired and is a very poor one objectively.

Respond in a logical sceintific way that you are talking to some one non religious...

My concern for the animals is not a religious one but a humane one. In united states there are laws for humane act of slaughtering and they somewhat give leneincy for Islam and Judaic practice.

But what about all those sacrifice around the world. In bangladesh I have seen with my own eyes... 10 ppl holding down a cow.. and half way to slaughter, the cow was able to over power all and run away with half of its throat cut profusely bleeding.. there is something extraordinarily wrong with this picture.... (u dismiss it calling it optics ??)

Sacrifice, slaughter is all fine.. but there are PROVEN methods on what reduces pain and what supresses brain function. Receptor in brain work similarly it;s all science brohter... so your argument of "you don't know the perspective from goat" is a very naaive one.

Again put religion aside.. set aside your thoughts on God knows best and that's how he want it to be .. and answer on your own...Is there something wrong with 10 men holding down an animal and slaughter it without any form of brain stunting? You can argue sharp cutting of carotid is as effective as anything else for knocking something unconscious but personally i reserve my judgement on this and feel it can be controlled even more efficiently.

iDumb
August 21, 2018, 01:05 AM
Also the argument is instant severance of the carotid artery stops blood flow to the brain rendering it unconscious which is in effect mean the animal doesn't feel anything.

But it all depends on who is performing this. Anatomy is different for each individual animal. Internal carotid artery is buried deep.. whose pathway is in certain way.

There is no gurantee and often times i am guess it's true for all those amateur BD slaughtering.. they are just going at the throat and eventually getting to the artery.

I don't buy for a second all the slaughter are painless. But what if I can medicate and sedate the animal. then i am 100% certain i can't mess it up. I hope you can see my argument.

ToBeFair
August 21, 2018, 01:20 AM
He has given me the power to choose? Are u sure?

Definitely God (from Islamic perspective) has given us the power to choose in some aspects. You can choose korbani mangsho or you may choose daal sabji for your lunch today. You have a choice. If you deny that you have a choice in this aspect, it will be like saying you do not exist.

However, our choice is not absolute and on many aspects we have no choice. You did not choose your gender, date of birth, race, ethnicity. You did not choose that you will have two hands. You did not choose that you will be a human. You will not choose your time of death either.

Having said so, we Muslims also believe that everything is predestined.

Now, the questions is, how do we reconcile the fact that we have choice while at the same time everything is predestined?

This is easy to comprehend whom God gives understanding. Since we do not know what has been decreed for us, we cannot use predestination to justify the choices or decisions we make in our life. Divine decree unfolds before us only after we make a choice or an event happens. Thus no one shall be able to use predestination as an excuse on the Day of Judgement.

If you are still not convinced, and argue that your belief and actions are not your choice but the result of God's predestination, than I dare you: jump from a building using the same logic. :D

Also would love to get your views on the story behind the Sacrifice...
Do u think it is immense mercy of God or a cruel joke played by God? :up:

When it comes to the story of God commanding Abraham (peace be upon him), regular Muslims take the story on face value and celebrate how the Prophet (peace be upon him) celebrated Eid and performed rituals of Eid. This is a good sign, because God wants ease for us, and through obeying Him, we can easily enter Jannah, which is the ultimate goal. [বাংলা]বিশ্বাসে মেলায় বস্তু, তর্কে বহুদূর। [/বাংলা]

However, if you want to become philosophical, asking whether the story is "immense mercy of God or a cruel joke played by God", then know that our scholars have already discussed this issue before.

The issue here is following:

Since God is all good by definition, He surely commands only good. Then how did He command Abraham to sacrifice his own son, which seems like an ignoble act? Doesn't such command contradict with the all good nature of God?

But then again, if you think deeply and generalize the whole situation, this is the question of evil. How can an all good God create evil and suffering in this world? How can an all good God create eternal sadistic punishment like Hell fire?

Now, we humans are not the first one to ask about the problem of evil. In fact, even before God created Adam, the angels asked God about it, but God did not explain His reasoning:

And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."[The Noble Quran 2:30]

Personally for me, existence of evil and suffering does not create any intellectual or emotional issue in ascertaining the existence of an all powerful and all merciful God. Personally for me, the proof of God's existence and proofs about the truthfulness of the Prophet-hood of Muhammad (peace be upom him) and veracity of Islam far outweigh whatever claims are thrown against. Does it mean I have a satisfactory explanation for the problem of evil? I don't and I have not read any.

I once had a similar discussion about the problem of evil in Facebook with someone, who tried to reconcile saying that there is no evil - evil is simply the absence of good. I disagreed with him. Good and evil are separate entity, both created by God, and only He knows the wisdom. I had written following reply to him:

As Muslims, we believe that Allah is the Creator, and there is no other creator beside Him. He created everything, both good and evil, and there is no denying of this fact.

If a Muslim says that Allah did not create evil, or if he says that evil is not a separate entity, but merely the absence of good, he commits two mistakes. First, he denies the divinity of Allah, for a divine attribute of Allah is that only He can create, and second, he denies the reality that evil exists as a separate entity completely independent and opposite of good.

For example, as Muslim, we believe that Satan exists - we believe that he is a jinn and that he exists physically. Allah created him from smokeless fire. And the purpose of Satan is nothing but misleading human beings and taking them to the Hell Fire.

Can a Muslim say that Satan is simply the absence of good? The answer is NO. The correct answer is, Satan is an independent creation of Allah. Out of His infinite and complete knowledge, Allah knew even before creating Satan that he will mislead human beings, but for a wisdom that we cannot know or fully comprehend, Allah brought this evil entity (i.e., the Satan) into existence anyway.

Another example: Is death simply the absence of life? Death is absence of life, but death and life are separate entities as well as separate creations of Allah, as Allah has said:

[He] who created death and life to test you [as to] which of you is best in deed - and He is the Exalted in Might, the Forgiving - [The Noble Quran 67:2]

Allah also said:

But if good comes to them, they say, "This is from Allah "; and if evil befalls them, they say, "This is from you." Say, "All [things] are from Allah ." So what is [the matter] with those people that they can hardly understand any statement? What comes to you of good is from Allah, but what comes to you of evil, [O man], is from yourself. And We have sent you, [O Muhammad], to the people as a messenger, and sufficient is Allah as Witness.[The Noble Quran 4:78-79]

This verse also says that both good and evil are from Allah - which means Allah created both of these entities. However, whereas good comes to us as part of Allah's blessing, evil befalls us for no other reason except as necessary consequences of the sins we commit.

We can therefore conclude that Muslims do not believe that evil is simply a matter of perception. It is NOT. Good and evil are two separate entities and they are both the creation of Allah. Evil exists in this world for many wisdoms, and only Allah knows the complete wisdom for the existence of evil.

Now, on the backdrop of this conclusion, the atheist may ask me, “God by definition has to be Good and the source of all Good. How can then God create evil entities?” Yes, we Muslims believe that God is All Good and the Source of all Good. To understand how an All-Good God can thereby create evil, we have to delve into the topic of relativism.

Suppose I see someone is being killed/executed. If I know nothing, why this person is being killed, as a random observer, the act of killing will seem inhumane and therefore evil to me. However, if I learn that the person being killed was a serial killer and a rapist murderer, the same act of killing this person will seem to be the most justified act and an act of goodness.

Therefore, the evil that exists in this world or in the next world, be it cancer, Satan, misery, Hell fire, death, and other forms of sufferings, from our viewpoint, they are evil. Are they also evil from the viewpoint of God? The answer is NO. For an All-Good God does not create absolute evil. Just like the execution of a rapist murderer seems perfectly rational and justified and not evil once we learn the background, God also knows in His infinite knowledge the perfect and complete wisdom behind the creation of all apparent evil entities, which makes bringing these apparent entities into existence completely justified.

PS. For a topic like this, which has deep theological and philosophical implications, it is not proper to share random facebook posts, which often disseminates misinformation and wrong understanding – therefore be careful. At the same time, nor this post of mine is sufficient in any way to learn or fully comprehend this matter.

al Furqaan
August 21, 2018, 01:52 AM
But when a Muslim wants to carry out an annual religious ritual by sacrificing an animal, some start screaming about animal cruelty. And some ignorant Muslims join them.

.

Being a vegan is actually good for the environment. People who eat red meat and dairy have the highest carbon footprint, and vegans have the lowest. In this day and age when climate change is the single biggest threat not only to humanity but to the entire biosphere, that is no small matter.

That being said, I love the taste of meat, and and slowly reducing my consumption but I can't quit totally. Nor do I think you should. Everyone should just eat less. And I can't cut out milk/cheese/chocolate/ice cream from my diet ever.

But the way some ignorant muslims treat animals is certainly of concern. In fact, it nullifies the sacrifice and even renders the meat un-halal IMO.

Have a look at this video on what zabiha/halal is really supposed to be and then see how many in Bangladesh practice it that way.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/PVupjcoL7PQ" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

al Furqaan
August 21, 2018, 02:19 AM
Do u think it is immense mercy of God or a cruel joke played by God? :up:

The prophets are revered because they were held to a higher standard. Noah was commanded to build an ark in the middle of the desert and face the ridicule of people for years. Some would consider that to be cruel.

Moses was commanded to return to face the most vile tyrant of human history, even though he was afraid Pharaoh would try to kill him. Some would consider that to be cruel.

Muhammad was commanded to watch his people patiently suffer taunts, and then torture (Bilal), economic boycott and even death (Nusaiba) and he wasn't yet allowed to defend the community. Some would consider that to be cruel.

Abraham and his son Ishmael were on a different spiritual plane. What you and I would perceive to be cruel would not be perceived as such by them. Ishmael himself urged his father to do as commanded and said he was of those who submit.

Perception of any feeling is subjective. The masochist doesn't feel pain when he's whipped. Neither does the devout feel hardship once they've reached a higher spiritual plane.

Because of that, to this day, more than a billion people commemorate Abraham and Ishmael thousands of years after their death whereas most people alive today will be forgotten as soon as we die and even the likes of Mother Theresea or Steve Jobs will be remembered in only a few passing comments.

Yankees
August 21, 2018, 02:21 AM
ToBeFair, I enjoyed reading your post. I agree with some of it, and some I don't, but I enjoyed it nonetheless.

Tonmoys question is an interesting one:
Do u think it is immense mercy of God or a cruel joke played by God? :up:

This answer depends entirely on each of us as individuals. That in itself is the definition of belief. It's a lot like that "half glass of water" scenario - the optimist will see a glass half full, while the pessimist sees a glass half empty and perhaps a cruel joke.

And then there are those who will question whether the glass of water was even there in the first place. And if not, was this story just that - a story orally passed down for centuries and misconstrued over and over like a twisted game of Chinese whispers?

The answer is that no one knows. You believe what you want to believe. Because belief is a funny thing. It is the one thing that we can instantly change about our identity, but it is often the last thing people change.

The irony is that the same guy that believes unconditionally in the Almighty Allah and the Prophet (PBUH - as we are conditioned to write, as if not writing it would somehow mean we don't wish peace to be upon Him?), would have also believed unconditionally in Jesus Christ (Lord and Savior variety) - superficially swapping the name Ibrahim (must I again, ok i must...PBUH) for Abraham (sigh, PBUH), or even believing in Mother Laxmi (PBUher too) if he was simply born in a different household.

The same man who wouldn't allow a doctor to perform surgery on him using a 18th century medical journal, would happily allow a book written in the 7th century to dictate what he can/can't eat, when he must pray, etc. That is belief. Are they wrong? You really can't prove either way.

What I do know is that today is a fun day. It brings a lot of joy to billions of people across the world and that's not a bad thing. If this day means anything to you, then Eid Mubarak. If it doesn't, well have a happy normal Tuesday.

Jadukor
August 21, 2018, 02:41 AM
ToBeFair, I enjoyed reading your post. I agree with some of it, and some I don't, but I enjoyed it nonetheless.

Tonmoys question is an interesting one:


This answer depends entirely on each of us as individuals. That in itself is the definition of belief. It's a lot like that "half glass of water" scenario - the optimist will see a glass half full, while the pessimist sees a glass half empty and perhaps a cruel joke.

And then there are those who will question whether the glass of water was even there in the first place. And if not, was this story just that - a story orally passed down for centuries and misconstrued over and over like a twisted game of Chinese whispers?

The answer is that no one knows. You believe what you want to believe. Because belief is a funny thing. It is the one thing that we can instantly change about our identity, but it is often the last thing people change.

The irony is that the same guy that believes unconditionally in the Almighty Allah and the Prophet (PBUH - as we are conditioned to write, as if not writing it would somehow mean we don't wish peace to be upon Him?), would have also believed unconditionally in Jesus Christ (Lord and Savior variety) - superficially swapping the name Ibrahim (must I again, ok i must...PBUH) for Abraham (sigh, PBUH), or even believing in Mother Laxmi (PBUher too) if he was simply born in a different household.

The same man who wouldn't allow a doctor to perform surgery on him using a 18th century medical journal, would happily allow a book written in the 7th century to dictate what he can/can't eat, when he must pray, etc. That is belief. Are they wrong? You really can't prove either way.

What I do know is that today is a fun day. It brings a lot of joy to billions of people across the world and that's not a bad thing. If this day means anything to you, then Eid Mubarak. If it doesn't, well have a happy normal Tuesday.

great post:up:
Eid Mubarak and a normal jhogra free tuesday to you!

ToBeFair
August 21, 2018, 04:24 AM
The prophets are revered because they were held to a higher standard. Noah was commanded to build an ark in the middle of the desert and face the ridicule of people for years. Some would consider that to be cruel.

Moses was commanded to return to face the most vile tyrant of human history, even though he was afraid Pharaoh would try to kill him. Some would consider that to be cruel.

Muhammad was commanded to watch his people patiently suffer taunts, and then torture (Bilal), economic boycott and even death (Nusaiba) and he wasn't yet allowed to defend the community. Some would consider that to be cruel.

Abraham and his son Ishmael were on a different spiritual plane. What you and I would perceive to be cruel would not be perceived as such by them. Ishmael himself urged his father to do as commanded and said he was of those who submit.

Perception of any feeling is subjective. The masochist doesn't feel pain when he's whipped. Neither does the devout feel hardship once they've reached a higher spiritual plane.

Because of that, to this day, more than a billion people commemorate Abraham and Ishmael thousands of years after their death whereas most people alive today will be forgotten as soon as we die and even the likes of Mother Theresea or Steve Jobs will be remembered in only a few passing comments.




Great post/observation :up::)

tonmoy.dhaka
August 21, 2018, 09:11 AM
Thank you Al-Furqaan, ToBeFair and Yankees for taking your valuable time to explain my question.

People may not agree with one another but can still be respectful. I thoroughly enjoyed the reply, and agree/understand a lot of it.

Eid mubarak to all.

One World
August 21, 2018, 09:30 AM
Eid Mubarak BC friends

Enjoy the dishes 😀

aklemalp
August 21, 2018, 10:01 AM
Eid Murabak to all my fellow members.

Peace and love :)

Jadukor
August 21, 2018, 10:18 AM
Eid Murabak to all my fellow members.

Peace and love :)
Eid Mubarak to you as well

simon
August 21, 2018, 05:10 PM
Eid mubarak every1

al Furqaan
August 21, 2018, 08:50 PM
Thank you Al-Furqaan, ToBeFair and Yankees for taking your valuable time to explain my question.



Just giving a different perspective that you may not have heard.

Faith is a curious thing. If you have it, anything makes sense. If you don't, then nothing makes sense. There's no point debating matters of faith precisely because faith, at its core isn't about evidence or data. If it were, then the devout would merely need to crunch numbers on a calculator to reach higher planes of faith. If faith was based on data and empiricism it would be called science. Just like if you used real actors for an animated series it would then be called live action.

BengaliPagol
August 22, 2018, 12:46 AM
Muti-million dollars companies like Mcdonalds and such are slaughtering billions of slices of meat a day and people losing their minds over meat slaughter for one day for a religious festival. I just cannot contain my laughter. I almost fell from my chair from laughing too hard.

BengaliPagol
August 22, 2018, 01:32 AM
Just giving a different perspective that you may not have heard.

Faith is a curious thing. If you have it, anything makes sense. If you don't, then nothing makes sense. There's no point debating matters of faith precisely because faith, at its core isn't about evidence or data. If it were, then the devout would merely need to crunch numbers on a calculator to reach higher planes of faith. If faith was based on data and empiricism it would be called science. Just like if you used real actors for an animated series it would then be called live action.

it makes no sense to limit faith to such a definition. Yes it may be some elements of truth but this "faith" that you talk about is also exhibited on a day to day basis by everyone. For e.g. how do you really now your mother is truly your biological mother? You are taking a leap of faith there as well. When you go to the doctor, you are taking a leap of faith there in regards to if the doctor will truly do his best for your betterment.

But for some reason people try to portray belief in a religion as faith and define faith in such a way to promote the idea that people you have faith are irrational as a result.

iDumb
August 22, 2018, 01:34 AM
Muti-million dollars companies like Mcdonalds and such are slaughtering billions of slices of meat a day and people losing their minds over meat slaughter for one day for a religious festival. I just cannot contain my laughter. I almost fell from my chair from laughing too hard.

You area laughing becuase you haven't read the posts. What does Beef consumption by others have anything to do with cow slaughtering by Muslims on EID? You as a Muslim supposed to be better. But we all know that is one wihsful thinking. No offense. Many ppl who follow religion are just very vile in nature when a bit of their comfort zone is questioned.

Why is it so hard for you accept that there are pain being inflicted on an animal when they go under the blade? What does Mcdonalds have to do with what YOU DO?

ToBeFair
August 22, 2018, 05:33 AM
You area laughing becuase you haven't read the posts. What does Beef consumption by others have anything to do with cow slaughtering by Muslims on EID? You as a Muslim supposed to be better. But we all know that is one wihsful thinking. No offense. Many ppl who follow religion are just very vile in nature when a bit of their comfort zone is questioned.

Why is it so hard for you accept that there are pain being inflicted on an animal when they go under the blade? What does Mcdonalds have to do with what YOU DO?

There are two different issues here:

1. Some Muslims, even though may ve practicing or semi practicing, often suffer from self-esteem issues. It is as if they are ashamed for being Muslim. They often feel the need to apologize for their own religious practices. Your post oozes that sort of insecurity. The views of an insecure apologist cannot be taken seriously.

OR

2. Even if we assume that you are not insecure but rather sincere in your call that Muslims should better themselves in the aspect of how they sacrifice their animals, then the mainstream Muslims (who more or less subscribe to the literal interpretation and following the Quran and the Sunnah- the prophetic tradition) believe that their method is the best, and there is no better method than the method of the Prophet.

God already said that in his Prophet we have the best example:

Indeed in the Messenger of Allah (Muhammad SAW) you have a good example to follow for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allah and the Last Day and remembers Allah much. [The Noble Quran 33:21]

Also God said:

O you who believe! Do not put (yourselves) forward before Allah and His Messenger (SAW), and fear Allah. Verily! Allah is All-Hearing, All-Knowing. O you who believe! Raise not your voices above the voice of the Prophet (SAW), nor speak aloud to him in talk as you speak aloud to one another, lest your deeds may be rendered fruitless while you perceive not. [The Noble Quran 49:1-2]

As God commanded above, we are not supposed to put ourselves ahead of the Prophet. Rather, the Prophet is the one who leads, and we follow. Therefore, he (pbuh) slaughtered, we also slaughter.

As al-Furqan said above, it is a matter of faith. We have put our faith in this Prophet to believe in far weighty matters - matters of unseen like angels, hereafter, day of judgement, hell fire, and so on. If we claim to be Muslims and can put faith in such HUGE matters, definitely we trust him in the matter of slaughtering an animal. End of story.

iDumb
August 22, 2018, 08:06 AM
There are two different issues here:

1. Some Muslims, even though may ve practicing or semi practicing, often suffer from self-esteem issues. It is as if they are ashamed for being Muslim. They often feel the need to apologize for their own religious practices. Your post oozes that sort of insecurity. The views of an insecure apologist cannot be taken seriously.

.

NO this is not insecurity. this is called being critical - hallmark of intelligence. I do not or did not apologize for other's vile acts. Your posts oozes religious bias - almost as if you can not think properly. It's not a blessing, it's being handicapped.

iDumb
August 22, 2018, 08:16 AM
You guys are talking a lot, almost borderline attack when all I said is I personally do not like the handling of slaughtering in many parts of the world. Instead of discussing why it is probably the best way (or things that can be implemented to make it better), you all decided to
1. compare your act to those of other - as if it's an excuse for yourself
2. Attack the person with a thought - calling him insecure
3. Used some sheep logic (circular dumb) which is not necessary in this case because my discussion is to see if there are better ways of doing this or not but you taking it as if I am calling out the religion for this.

Perspective.

iDumb
August 22, 2018, 08:32 AM
Here is a thought. Slaughtering should be performed by some one after they obtain a licence to do so and not by any random person. Anything that is done in a controlled setting tend to have better outcomes.

http://calfcare.ca/content/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/GF2-0225-Shearer-Cattle-exsanguination-placement-2016-09-29-1-768x768.jpg

Look at the direction of the knife. These are called EDUCATION. I have seen in Bangladesh field it is going the opposite way (where going from trachea (hard part) inward).. Cows running with half of its throat cut.

You can argue evolution and that there is actully nothing wrong with inflicting pain on your prey as thats the laws of the universe but as an animal of superior intelligence, morals - it is your duty to alleviate that suffering of your prey as much as possible. That's my opinion. You can disagree and that's fine with me too...

But don't GIVE me some Bullshit logic that because everybody practice this way - it's the religious way - so it's the best way - and if you disagree you suffer from this or that...or get all defense over nothing like pedro did it this way why i can't i do it this way.

iDumb
August 22, 2018, 09:05 AM
Al furqan touched on it nicely with his video and Zubiha halal. There is nothing wrong with trying to do any job better. There is room for improvement on everything that we do.

Inability to not be open about it is what will hinder discoveries, inventions and ultimately result in a life inside a dirty cave - the state of today's Muslims. Ever wondered why not a single Muslim majority country currently in the world that is a super power, wealthy, or has advanced technology, ongoing research. Most muslim countries are POOR. Never occurred to any of you why that is the reason when Islam has such a rich history??

Just look put Muslims under the right setting, they can win you a world cup (france 2018). The key word is the right setting.. where your religion poses not a hindrance but promotes efficiency.

Anyways, I will reduce my participation here and regarding religion as it never goes well. But Islam is not a perfect religion in its current form no matter how loudly you say it.

BengaliPagol
August 22, 2018, 07:24 PM
You area laughing becuase you haven't read the posts. What does Beef consumption by others have anything to do with cow slaughtering by Muslims on EID? You as a Muslim supposed to be better. But we all know that is one wihsful thinking. No offense. Many ppl who follow religion are just very vile in nature when a bit of their comfort zone is questioned.

Why is it so hard for you accept that there are pain being inflicted on an animal when they go under the blade? What does Mcdonalds have to do with what YOU DO?

You clearly do not know what constitutes "halal meat" then if you are questioning these things.

BengaliPagol
August 22, 2018, 07:34 PM
BTW slaughtering meat is not an obligation on eid-ul-adha. If you do want to get technical then yes it is tough to categorise meat industries as properly halal, so perhaps we should consider steering away from it. And maybe perhaps only look to give the meat to the poor only rather than for ourselves. But their is a standard in place to categorise something as halal which is founded on the principle of mercy.

If you are talking specifically about the the killing of animals in this day and age in the climate we are living in then yes I agree with you that there is clearly injustices taking place and as Muslims we have lost touch of our roots of our tradition when it comes to showing compassion and mercy with these animals being slaughtered. There is so much barakah in food when done and prepared properly.

This has nothing to do with Islam. This is based on the capitalist system and corporatisation of the world in which we are living

One World
August 22, 2018, 09:15 PM
I agree with iD***

We require a PETA friendly version of such annihilation.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sacrifice#Ancient_Near_East

BengaliPagol
August 22, 2018, 11:26 PM
Non believers and atheists like to take the moral high ground, even though their own moral relativism means that there is no moral high ground.

One World
August 24, 2018, 12:16 PM
Non believers and atheists like to take the moral high ground, even though their own moral relativism means that there is no moral high ground.

Incorrect.

A believer does not need to prove anything whereas an agnostic goes by the observation and may turn into an atheist or vice versa. Agnostic observes and then strives to make an understanding out of the environment more like the Himu character. I cannot tell how an observer would ponder in Mars, Amazon rain forests or even near North Pole (for example will he wait to break fast for whole six months while the Ramadan/2 Eids etc. already over near the equator). But interestingly a believer goes by full submission. He does not have to stand his ground every time his belief system/prophecies/history/legacy are criticized or questioned by believers of other systems/atheists/non-believers etc.

So, when I see people 1. starts gathering all kinds of symbolic proof for existence of their belief system, 2. becomes furious and leaves no stones unturned to fingerpoint and hairsplit the wrong vs right, it only makes me laugh.

This is a waste of time for a believer, but for an agnostic/atheist not so much. It is essential for the latter group. Almost as is this is part of evolution, an struggle for existence in a highly polarized world.

tonmoy.dhaka
August 27, 2018, 09:51 AM
Now that the Eid and the feast are over.. Let me bring about some of the more troubling facts which are never taught in Schools (in Bangladesh) or discussed in mosques about the festival.

1/ There is no biblical reference to Abraham ever being anywhere near Kaaba. Infact Mecca was never even a major trade route/hub/center as portrayed in Islam.

2/ Christian Romans were not even aware of Kaaba, they never invaded Mecca, tells you how unimportant a religious location it was for Christians and Jews.

No Christians and/or Jews consider Mecca a sacred Christian/Jewish site.

3/ Muslims and the prophet used to pray towards Jerusalem before moving towards Kaaba.

4/ Historians (not associated with any religion ) believes Kaaba was actually built by the Arab Pagans. Kaaba used to house the most important idol(God) of the Quraysh tribe (Prophets tribe)

5/ Circling the Kaaba was again a pagan practice and so was venerating the black stone.

6/ Practice of throwing stones against the stone pillars during Hajj symbolizes Abraham scaring away the devil by throwing stone towards him, that is how powerful the devil is(just thought it was funny, so mentioning it here ) .

7/ Finally , the one major reason I find Islam extremely hateful

Quran [9 28]
O you who have believed, indeed the polytheists are unclean, so let them not approach al-Masjid al-Haram after this, their [final] year. And if you fear privation, Allah will enrich you from His bounty if He wills. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Wise.

Yes, I do not believe polytheist are unclean... If a same statement was made against Muslims, there would be outrage (Rightly so).

The verse above is also the reason why non muslims are not allowed to enter Mecca this day because they are unclean. Not to mention the clock tower right beside Mecca was designed and constructed mainly by non muslims, they had to do it out of site which made this work even more challenging.

One World
August 27, 2018, 10:11 AM
The above post is a pure example of just what I said in my earlier post.

Zeeshan
August 27, 2018, 11:59 AM
One World is enlightened. He is basically near the level of Ancient One lol.

Missed your posts. It's a privilege to have you in the forum.

And no I used unsalted Keri Gold grass fed butter.

Zeeshan
August 27, 2018, 12:19 PM
Eid Mubarak to all.

though i like meat. it is hard for me to see all the animals get slaughtered and the open celebration of human cruelty during eid ul adha.

But i guess that's evolution and that's the food chain meant to be.

Yeah absolutely. Faroe Island also got problem with ruddy sea from puncturing sharks or whale I think. It's not an attack against religion or anything. They also get a free pass.

To me it bothered growing seeing their beautiful dark eyes who KNOWS it will get slaughtered.

Korun chokhe artonaad kora bachar jonno chotfot kora is what bothers us ... If I may idumb?

But would you say a bullet to the head would be more humane or say the abbatoirs of McDonald's which is cloaked up behind the scene makes it more abstract?

Going back to your last point unfortunately it is what is. Reality. God. Universe... Is neutral. Impartial. Reality frankly DNGAF.

It simply.... allows.

Or else we find .. at least I do black mambas having an orgy and a f.. fest utterly DISGUSTING. But nature doesn't censor itself. It simply allows. That's the beauty of freewill and anything and everything goes.

Heh Allah hoa eto shoja na. Er jonnoi amra manuah manushi theke jabo and Allah will sit on his throne blissfully aware with mitimiti hashi and supernatural state of mind, patience, and self restraint letting the cosmic drama unfold be it holocaust, genocide, Abu Ghraib...

God actually doesn't judge. We signed up for this sh lol.

(We will probably disagree on certain issues. Theodicy meodiciy r moddhe bepartake tene anlum r qui
)

Zeeshan
August 27, 2018, 01:00 PM
I will make 2 points before I leave this intoxicatingly Uber civil thread. *Not to confuse with Lyft. ( Beshiie bhalo hoa bhalo na. Ektu dushtumipona korte hoy.)

First of all just like you can say flat out say God is good it is also right to make my own statement God is neither good nor bad. He is non dual and above human set standards of good or bad. He has his own unique sense and taste of nuanced justice.

One of Allah's name is The Destroyer.

Although most his attributes are Good in human terms such as again and again it has been hammered he is Merciful, Compassionate, Forgiving, Generous, Bountiful, Munificent but in order to get full picture instead of putting human characteristics on him which is incomplete by nature is to look at the gestalt flavor of his full personality.

Akhon Tumi boisha boisha hitlari korba ar tumgo Allah saira dibe na?

Moshkora koroner jay ga Pau na. Lol

As God she might very well punish them in Saw mode. Ekhon amra korle eta unethical but God has a weird sense of justice which you can only FEEL. You can only FEEL his presence and cosmic vibes.

Gayebi awaj jeta bole thaki are ki..

F'instance .. mane for instance are ki... One guy brutally raped some woman but then after caught he ended up in a cell. Guess what? The cell mate was the victim's cousin or some sh.

Lol

Ekhon Allah ki kharap hoye gelo for ALLOWING it?

Ekhom keu Jodi Hiroshima giya rahajani bomabazi kore amra take terrorist bolbo. But God obliterated Sodom and Gomorrah.

We are conditioned to think we should be tolerant of LGBT or God is pro life or pro death. He is neither. Ineffable. Frankly if I was Muslim I would be OFFENDED if someone just slapped HIS notion of human axiology on him just to gratify the ego and justify his actions.

Secondly I agree with the other poster who said there is nothing we can know for sure.

Finally Yankee got me rolling with the whole PBUH thing. LMAO. He was on a roll.

In that zoune houmayy!!!

Frankly it is a fascinating discussion and thread. Hoping the chaff got separated and we get to carry on a newly trimmed thread.

ToBeFair
August 27, 2018, 03:22 PM
Now that the Eid and the feast are over.. Let me bring about some of the more troubling facts which are never taught in Schools (in Bangladesh) or discussed in mosques about the festival.

1/ There is no biblical ......

.
.
.
.
work even more challenging.

Before you ask more questions, you need to understand some fundamentals first. You have to understand where you are coming from and where Islam is coming from.

When God asks humans to 'think' in the Quran, according to Shaykh Dr. Yasir Qadhi's research, He does so in four different categories. Dr. Qadhi collected all verses from the Quran where God asks to think and deduced them into four different categories - Two for non-believers, and two for believers. For the sake of brevity, I will not quote any example for each category. Examples are aplenty.

As for the non believers, God wants them to think about

- the existence and oneness of God through looking at and contemplating over the creation
- if Muhammad (S) was a true prophet

As for the believers, God wants them

- to ponder over the marvelous creation of God, not to prove God's existence, but rather to increase in their own faith
- to think about the Quran and its verses and benefit from them (by learning its tafseer, tajweed, and all other related sciences)

Now, for anyone who is a non-believer, he has to think broadly about the oneness of God and the truthfulness of Muhammad (S)'s prophethood. If you are not convinced of these two fundamental pillars of Islam (ie the testimony of faith), whatever question you ask thereafter, no one can give you a satisfactory answer. These questions are pointless.

Whatever is not making sense to you, like the splitting of moon, the polytheists being impure etc, they make sense to the believers, because they are assured about the oneness of God and the veracity of Muhammad's (S) prophet-hood. Thus, whatever follows authentically from him, the Muslims accept.

At the end of the day, you have to remember that Islam is primarily based on submission. In fact the meaning of Islam is submission. And when you submit, you have to submit physically, mentally, spiritually, and even intellectually in some aspects. Yes, God and His Messenger did not tell us the WHY and HOW of everything. If He did, every human being would have understood everything and submitted, and this worldly life would cease to be a test of submission (belief) or rejection (disbelief).

But from where you are coming, the question remains: Is Islam a religion of no rationality?

Note that you are not the first person in history who is saying your intellect is unable to understand/comprehend/digest/make sense of some aspects of Islam. It happened before. At the beginning of Islam, a strand of Islamic theology did not understand the names and attributes of God. Another strand could not make sense of Hell and Paradise, and rejected these entities as allegorical. Today we cannot understand issue X. Tomorrow another group will not understand issue Y. As Dr. Qadhi says, the puzzle remains the same, only the pieces change.

This problem of intellect not comprehending some aspects of Islam (or scripture) was succinctly summarized by the Ashari scholars of medieval Islam. The problem can be summarized as follows:

Since intellect (or reason) is used to understand or comprehend the overall validity and veracity of Scripture (ie both revelation and the prophethood and prophetic traditions), what if intellect cannot make sense of certain aspects of the scripture? If such clash arises, what should be given preference? Intellect or scripture?

According to the Ashari scholars, if such clash arises, intellect must be given precedence. Since a human understands the overall veracity of revelation through intellect, according to Ashari scholars, rejecting intellect in a smaller clash of reason vs revelation shall tantamount to rejecting the truth, since it was the faculty of reason that guided the person to the truth in the first place.

Now this conclusion has been thoroughly debunked by Ibn Taymiyya. And this was the topic of Dr. Qadhi's dissertation.

A few points about Ibn Taymiyya's counter argument:

First and foremost, God and all His messengers presented Islam to humankind not from rationality but from the perspective of innate natural disposition of human souls (known as fitra in arabic). God said He took all souls from the loin on Adam, and asked them, "Am I not your Lord?" All of us said, "Yes". Because of this covenant with God, human souls have some ingrained knowledge, through which they know objective moral truths. We don't need any proof- from this inner disposition and ingrained knowledge, we just know that killing is wrong, stealing is evil. Similarly, it is due to inner disposition, majority of Muslims believe and know Islam to be true. Because both this disposition and Islam came from the same source.

Second, inner disposition/ingrained knowledge is given to all human beings in same quantity. It is same for a farmer in a rural area and a particle physicist in USA.

Third, per Taymiyya, the truth of Scripture is independent of human intellect. Because there is no proper definition of human intellect. What is human intellect? Is it acquired knowledge? Is it observation? Intellect varies from time to time, culture to culture, place to place, and person to person. What makes sense to you today may not make sense to you tomorrow. What does not make sense today might make sense tomorrow. Thus, a faculty that is always changing and fickle cannot be used to reject any aspect of scripture even if it is unable to comprehend.

Fourth, if your intellect does not affirm the truthfulness of prophethood and scripture overall (the key here is overall), then all other follow up questions about various aspects of scripture are meaningless. The revelation has 6000+ verses, and the prophetic tradition has over 600 hundred thousands of hadiths, and if someone tries to make sense of each and everyone of them per his or her intellect, he or she will never accept Islam, because definitely something will not make sense to the intellect. On the other hand, if someone affirms the scripture and the prophethood to be true, then he too cannot reject some aspects of Islam if it does not make sense, because in that case, he will self-contradict himself. The same intellect that has affirmed the veracity of scripture will attempt to reject an aspect of the same scripture, and it is nothing but intellect contradicting intellect and this makes no sense.

Fifth, through the story of Genesis (the islamic version), the tension between reason and revelation was highlighted from the very beginning of creation. God commanded Satan to bow before Adam. It did not make sense to him. Per his intellect, he was better than Adam because he was made of fire whereas Adam was made of clay. God did not accept Satan's rational thinking but rather expelled him as a disbeliever and cursed him. At the same time, God did not explain the wisdom behind His command either. On the other hand, when Adam disobeyed God, instead of asking what difference eating an apple makes, he simply accepted his mistake, and he was forgiven. God clearly highlighted that first you understand the truth of Islam through your innate disposition, and thereafter, it is all about submission. If you submit, you will be rewarded with eternal bliss, and if not, you will get eternal punishment. It is very deterministic - either you accept this package or you don't.

Zeeshan
August 27, 2018, 03:39 PM
Dude you take Islam too literally. Instead of parroting out some scholar's idea why don't YOU put your spin and interpretation? Learn Arabic at least.

Iqra. Thanks.

I didn't read that long post. Why should I if I can go to direct source?

Question authority. Use the intellect that Allah gave you to draw your own conclusions.

Or else on Day of Judgement you will be no different than soldiers who blindly follow orders.

Zeeshan
August 27, 2018, 03:57 PM
And you seem to use a lot of "should" words.

-one has to
-one must
-non believers must

No. I or for that matter anyone
does not "have to" do anything. Why do you start off with that assumption?

What's your philosophical and metaphysical underpinning and foundation? Islam?

My ain't that a vicious spin. Have you studied Torah and Gita with Torah and Gita's words as guiding principle?

Frankly piggybacking on others won't save you from hell fire. LOL

But you will protest. They are the expert. But why didn't YOU become the expert? God will ask.

That's intellectual laziness in my opinion. These so called scholar's and experts had the same resources as you and I and they started from scratch. But you are just bypassing off them.

Start from scratch.

As Drake said 'started from the bottom now we here... Started from the bottom now we here."

-------------------------------------

Also I don't like the insult Islamophobe. That smacks as if you have ... Not you as in in general you have some ownership over that religion just cuz you got chaap daari and strike your head against the floor.

Allah. God. Ywvh is too big for one some random guy to come in a gazillion years timeline and presumptiously assume Allah will automatically side with you just cuz cosmetically you ' speak' Islam.

No one owns Allah.

Besides that's just plain ol deflection. That's like saying Zeeshan you don't pray
You don't fast. You make fun of "us" and thus you got no right to rip Islam apart.

Well guess what? &&&& You. That's egregiously borderline racist as saying you are a second class citizen and you got no right whatsoever to criticize "our" government.

p.s. Just to be clear and that I am not being passive-aggressive, I know iDumb used the word islamophobe but it wasn't an attack on him. My beef was with anyone who try to discount "us" with deflection.

Heh. Now you know "we" say religion -all religion- is a form of control and manipulation by elite. This is why as an Islamic imam said in South Africa. Be like the sugar in water. They can't see you, but can taste you. Religious teachings are not inherently bad but when hijacked by few elite authorities...

Zeeshan
August 27, 2018, 03:59 PM
Lol shardul chachu bhikari dorbesh er besh ey naki..

See I can say that now because I am no longer a staff.

BengaliPagol
August 27, 2018, 07:51 PM
Instead of addressing the idea presented, you Zeeshan are parroting on about how the idea is from someone else. lol. All ideas we read, learn and observe are all "parroted" off someone else in the past.

You ironically are showing intellectual laziness by actually addressing what is being said. It takes time, effort and intellectual ability to read, conceptualise and understand what scholars have said in the past, something which is what ToBeFair has done.

And frankly in any field of study you read what the best of scholars have said in that field. Ibn Sina famously tried reading Greek manuscripts on his own and said he spent months and he didn't conceptualise any of it. Then he read Al-Farabi's stuff and he said got it straight away.

Zeeshan
August 27, 2018, 10:37 PM
^^Bhai you are 100% right. I anticipated it fully. My defense ? I am supposed to be the flawed one The kufr. Not only that I am logically inconsistent and I embrace my hypocrisy. I said I won't reply but made four posts. Point being... I internalized my own logic instead of traditional one. Mine is rife with paradox. Ki mia Lau su tau su dekhi kisui poro na... Troll logic jeta arki

You know how Joker lies about his scar. How Reddington is full of spite and cold blooded killer yet he adheres to values, integrity, loyalty. How Hannibal justifies himself philosophically. Or Jigsaw plays God.

Psychopath logic jeta bole thaki amra...

Oi level ey jete chachi.. NOT BC Aunty.

tonmoy.dhaka
August 28, 2018, 08:00 AM
Before you ask more questions, you need to understand some fundamentals first. You have to understand where you are coming from and where Islam is coming from.

When God asks humans to 'think' in the Quran, according to Shaykh Dr. Yasir Qadhi's research, He does so in four different categories. Dr. Qadhi collected all verses from the Quran where God asks to think and deduced them into four different categories - Two for non-believers, and two for believers. For the sake of brevity, I will not quote any example for each category. Examples are aplenty.

As for the non believers, God wants them to think about

- the existence and oneness of God through looking at and contemplating over the creation
- if Muhammad (S) was a true prophet

As for the believers, God wants them

- to ponder over the marvelous creation of God, not to prove God's existence, but rather to increase in their own faith
- to think about the Quran and its verses and benefit from them (by learning its tafseer, tajweed, and all other related sciences)

Now, for anyone who is a non-believer, he has to think broadly about the oneness of God and the truthfulness of Muhammad (S)'s prophethood. If you are not convinced of these two fundamental pillars of Islam (ie the testimony of faith), whatever question you ask thereafter, no one can give you a satisfactory answer. These questions are pointless.

Whatever is not making sense to you, like the splitting of moon, the polytheists being impure etc, they make sense to the believers, because they are assured about the oneness of God and the veracity of Muhammad's (S) prophet-hood. Thus, whatever follows authentically from him, the Muslims accept.

At the end of the day, you have to remember that Islam is primarily based on submission. In fact the meaning of Islam is submission. And when you submit, you have to submit physically, mentally, spiritually, and even intellectually in some aspects. Yes, God and His Messenger did not tell us the WHY and HOW of everything. If He did, every human being would have understood everything and submitted, and this worldly life would cease to be a test of submission (belief) or rejection (disbelief).

But from where you are coming, the question remains: Is Islam a religion of no rationality?

Note that you are not the first person in history who is saying your intellect is unable to understand/comprehend/digest/make sense of some aspects of Islam. It happened before. At the beginning of Islam, a strand of Islamic theology did not understand the names and attributes of God. Another strand could not make sense of Hell and Paradise, and rejected these entities as allegorical. Today we cannot understand issue X. Tomorrow another group will not understand issue Y. As Dr. Qadhi says, the puzzle remains the same, only the pieces change.

This problem of intellect not comprehending some aspects of Islam (or scripture) was succinctly summarized by the Ashari scholars of medieval Islam. The problem can be summarized as follows:

Since intellect (or reason) is used to understand or comprehend the overall validity and veracity of Scripture (ie both revelation and the prophethood and prophetic traditions), what if intellect cannot make sense of certain aspects of the scripture? If such clash arises, what should be given preference? Intellect or scripture?

According to the Ashari scholars, if such clash arises, intellect must be given precedence. Since a human understands the overall veracity of revelation through intellect, according to Ashari scholars, rejecting intellect in a smaller clash of reason vs revelation shall tantamount to rejecting the truth, since it was the faculty of reason that guided the person to the truth in the first place.

Now this conclusion has been thoroughly debunked by Ibn Taymiyya. And this was the topic of Dr. Qadhi's dissertation.

A few points about Ibn Taymiyya's counter argument:

First and foremost, God and all His messengers presented Islam to humankind not from rationality but from the perspective of innate natural disposition of human souls (known as fitra in arabic). God said He took all souls from the loin on Adam, and asked them, "Am I not your Lord?" All of us said, "Yes". Because of this covenant with God, human souls have some ingrained knowledge, through which they know objective moral truths. We don't need any proof- from this inner disposition and ingrained knowledge, we just know that killing is wrong, stealing is evil. Similarly, it is due to inner disposition, majority of Muslims believe and know Islam to be true. Because both this disposition and Islam came from the same source.

Second, inner disposition/ingrained knowledge is given to all human beings in same quantity. It is same for a farmer in a rural area and a particle physicist in USA.

Third, per Taymiyya, the truth of Scripture is independent of human intellect. Because there is no proper definition of human intellect. What is human intellect? Is it acquired knowledge? Is it observation? Intellect varies from time to time, culture to culture, place to place, and person to person. What makes sense to you today may not make sense to you tomorrow. What does not make sense today might make sense tomorrow. Thus, a faculty that is always changing and fickle cannot be used to reject any aspect of scripture even if it is unable to comprehend.

Fourth, if your intellect does not affirm the truthfulness of prophethood and scripture overall (the key here is overall), then all other follow up questions about various aspects of scripture are meaningless. The revelation has 6000+ verses, and the prophetic tradition has over 600 hundred thousands of hadiths, and if someone tries to make sense of each and everyone of them per his or her intellect, he or she will never accept Islam, because definitely something will not make sense to the intellect. On the other hand, if someone affirms the scripture and the prophethood to be true, then he too cannot reject some aspects of Islam if it does not make sense, because in that case, he will self-contradict himself. The same intellect that has affirmed the veracity of scripture will attempt to reject an aspect of the same scripture, and it is nothing but intellect contradicting intellect and this makes no sense.

Fifth, through the story of Genesis (the islamic version), the tension between reason and revelation was highlighted from the very beginning of creation. God commanded Satan to bow before Adam. It did not make sense to him. Per his intellect, he was better than Adam because he was made of fire whereas Adam was made of clay. God did not accept Satan's rational thinking but rather expelled him as a disbeliever and cursed him. At the same time, God did not explain the wisdom behind His command either. On the other hand, when Adam disobeyed God, instead of asking what difference eating an apple makes, he simply accepted his mistake, and he was forgiven. God clearly highlighted that first you understand the truth of Islam through your innate disposition, and thereafter, it is all about submission. If you submit, you will be rewarded with eternal bliss, and if not, you will get eternal punishment. It is very deterministic - either you accept this package or you don't.

DELETED...

Zeeshan
August 28, 2018, 08:08 AM
Hey Tonmoy...

I am willing to give a fair shot to Islam but then I see you mention Taubah and I google it and I get your sentiment. I am more curious as how did the subsequent players like Ghazzali and Farabi - fully KNOWING the caustic judgmental tone- embraced their inner peace and reconciled their inner intuitive faith with scripture faith.

Zeeshan
August 28, 2018, 08:20 AM
akhon amar dharana hoche tumi boishaa boisha bachanallia tacchanaalia korba, shorpo puja korba, ummad hoyia ulongo hoyiaa mataaal hoia chondrima uddyan e giya nachba, ekchetia lgbt kore beraba, party drug induced rave party korba dionysius hall e giya, incest mincest korba (*NOT incel).... tayle shabhbik Allah t'allah mind korbe. tumake kichui bolaa jabe na... eta to hoy na.

I mean we are SO entrenched in US/West logic that progressive/liberals think anything goes. Take marijuana for example. Not a single forward thinking lib wills say weed is 'bad'. But if not in moderation anything is damaging. Same with LGBT. Tumi parade kore kore sharadin nacha nacha korba, tayle to officey kono kaaaji agabe na.

So imagine a book is revealed that vilifies clubbing, twerking, Cardi B and weed. We will all throw a hissy fit since we are so entrenched in so-called Western ideals. But that book might have a point.

(Once in a English class in a purely liberal Cali they asked if there was a person from wicca sitting in class, will it bother me? I said yes. And they started grilling me. Arreeey beta tora tolerant hou tolerant hou bolish, tayle amar perspective ta tolerant na kan.)

So given that context I can imagine why the needle will sway on the other side. (Ancillaryly Buddha might have said life is suffering just so we dont live under the impression it's all carpe diem live it up.)

Anything does NOT go. Tayle ki incest korao ok? Arrey forget about Arab desh. You talk about niqab and burkha. Then tell me... tell me...if you are sooooooooooooooo progressive then why can't you walk around nude in West?

This is a very interesting point. I really want to know how folks resolved it regarding views on polytheism.

Again these are purely my interpretation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_pre-Islamic_Arabia#Background,_belief_systems_and_sour ces

tonmoy.dhaka
August 28, 2018, 09:46 AM
Hey Tonmoy...

I am willing to give a fair shot to Islam but then I see you mention Taubah and I google it and I get your sentiment. I am more curious as how did the subsequent players like Ghazzali and Farabi - fully KNOWING the caustic judgmental tone- embraced their inner peace and reconciled their inner intuitive faith with scripture faith.

I know about them, but I will be the first person to admit that I have not read their published materials. So I am not the right person to comment on the subject.

What I can state however is that Imam Al Ghazali embraced Sufism which is frowned upon by the Sunni Muslims.

mufi_02
August 28, 2018, 10:02 AM
I tried to stay away as much as possible.

It is okay to discuss religion, theology, history and politics associated with it. It is also okay to disagree and share your point of views.

But I strongly believe it is NOT okay to insinuate and suggest Nazism is akin to Islam. or with any religion. or paganism.

Finally, the talking about theology and religion is every single thread is quiet tiring.

This is a eid mubarak thread and we end up talking about Nazis and Islam. I go to Hinduism thread and we end talking about Islam. I go to Rohingya thread and yes I am seeing comment about Islam and its violent nature. If I remember correctly, we were talking about gun violence in US and we go off to Islam lol. I comment on India's false claim of Illegal Bangladeshis thread and guess what I end up talking about...Islam and mullahs (not to be confused with Mamadullah Riyad).

I came here to say Eid Mubaraks to other members and somehow scratching my head how Nazis came into this.

And the fact that oh yeah I am from Dhaka and from a muslim family (unverified) doesn't give me the license to be insensitive. Its like saying oh yeah I can say the N word coz I had a black friend in my high school gym class.

we get it bruh! you are just allergic to it. years of pattern is unmistakable.

and I am not even remotely religious. peace out!

zeeshan nischoy ekhon amare pochabe eita niya :D

tonmoy.dhaka
August 28, 2018, 10:19 AM
I tried to stay away as much as possible.

It is okay to discuss religion, theology, history and politics associated with it. It is also okay to disagree and share your point of views.

But I strongly believe it is NOT okay to insinuate and suggest Nazism is akin to Islam. or with any religion. or paganism.

Finally, the talking about theology and religion is every single thread is quiet tiring.

This is a eid mubarak thread and we end up talking about Nazis and Islam. I go to Hinduism thread and we end talking about Islam. I go to Rohingya thread and yes I am seeing comment about Islam and its violent nature. If I remember correctly, we were talking about gun violence in US and we go off to Islam lol. I comment on India's false claim of Illegal Bangladeshis thread and guess what I end up talking about...Islam and mullahs (not to be confused with Mamadullah Riyad).

I came here to say Eid Mubaraks to other members and somehow scratching my head how Nazis came into this.

And the fact that oh yeah I am from Dhaka and from a muslim family (unverified) doesn't give me the license to be insensitive. Its like saying oh yeah I can say the N word coz I had a black friend in my high school gym class.

we get it bruh! you are just allergic to it. years of pattern is unmistakable.

and I am not even remotely religious. peace out!

zeeshan nischoy ekhon amare pochabe eita niya :D

Agreed.. I will delete my previous post.
I will stick to asking question instead of making a comment without much explanation.

Also, by stating "unverified" you are saying I might not be telling the truth. That is absolutely fine. I am not ultra sensitive. A fact is not changed by what people say.

If I say certain teachings of Budhism is akin to Nazism, than you will not call is insinuating. You would call me Mentally ill. Because there is no truth in the claim. People only get mad and frustrated when there is truth in the claim.

I would request people do not become ultra sensitive. Quran teaches polytheists are unclean, it also teaches you to not be a hypocrite. So I suggest, the next time you interact with a polytheist, you tell him how you feel about him. See how he reacts.

Zeeshan
August 28, 2018, 10:58 AM
I tried to stay away as much as possible.

It is okay to discuss religion, theology, history and politics associated with it. It is also okay to disagree and share your point of views.

But I strongly believe it is NOT okay to insinuate and suggest Nazism is akin to Islam. or with any religion. or paganism.

Finally, the talking about theology and religion is every single thread is quiet tiring.

This is a eid mubarak thread and we end up talking about Nazis and Islam. I go to Hinduism thread and we end talking about Islam. I go to Rohingya thread and yes I am seeing comment about Islam and its violent nature. If I remember correctly, we were talking about gun violence in US and we go off to Islam lol. I comment on India's false claim of Illegal Bangladeshis thread and guess what I end up talking about...Islam and mullahs (not to be confused with Mamadullah Riyad).

I came here to say Eid Mubaraks to other members and somehow scratching my head how Nazis came into this.

And the fact that oh yeah I am from Dhaka and from a muslim family (unverified) doesn't give me the license to be insensitive. Its like saying oh yeah I can say the N word coz I had a black friend in my high school gym class.

we get it bruh! you are just allergic to it. years of pattern is unmistakable.

and I am not even remotely religious. peace out!

zeeshan nischoy ekhon amare pochabe eita niya :D

Damn right I will.

I used one apt analogy which in no way, shape or form compared Islam with Nazism and you write a thesis.

Do not gaslight.
Do not deflect.
Do not tempt me.

If you are too dumb to get what I write that's your problem.

But don't for a moment gaslight which you and your Jackson 5 friends are more than capable of.

Whoever you take me for I am not him.

Let's just leave it at that.

And what part of starting a new offshoot thread you don't get?

Zeeshan
August 28, 2018, 11:04 AM
If you and your friends have something to say say it straight like a man instead of passive- aggressive way after your group therapy conference. Cuz I know you get together in your petty Jackson 5 group and discuss us behind our back.

Do not instigate and there will be nothing to be instigated about.

tonmoy.dhaka
August 28, 2018, 11:10 AM
If you and your friends have something to say say it straight like a man instead of passive- aggressive way after your group therapy conference. Cuz I know you get together in your petty Jackson 5 group and discuss us behind our back.

Do not instigate and there will be nothing to be instigated about.

You are hilarious :floor:

Zeeshan
August 28, 2018, 11:13 AM
Ek dike mainshe dari rakhe namaz roja kore oidike boisha boisha mainsher pise gibt kore, kutnami kore politics kore... Ekek Jon nijere sadhu money kore Khali kaba Sharif er poster lagaise bole.

In Islam it is explicitly mentioned if there are 3 people 2 shouldn't gather and discuss about him behind his back.

These are values.

Rifat
August 28, 2018, 11:21 AM
Alhamdulillah :) came back from Hajj. it was quite an experience...

adamnsu
August 28, 2018, 12:12 PM
Alhamdulillah :) came back from Hajj. it was quite an experience...

Hajj Mubarak. InshahAllah hope you and orher’s Hajj are accepted.

My brother in law and his wife arriving early hours of tomorrow

mufi_02
August 28, 2018, 12:54 PM
Damn right I will.

I used one apt analogy which in no way, shape or form compared Islam with Nazism and you write a thesis.

Do not gaslight.
Do not deflect.
Do not tempt me.

If you are too dumb to get what I write that's your problem.

But don't for a moment gaslight which you and your Jackson 5 friends are more than capable of.

Whoever you take me for I am not him.

Let's just leave it at that.

And what part of starting a new offshoot thread you don't get?

LOL it wasn't directed at you. But I missed your comebacks! Ah reminds me off the good old days.

And to Tonmoy, no offense intended. You should feel free to share your opinions and theology discussions. I am not even a mod and so my word has little value and can ignore me.

Belated Eid Mubarak to whoever was celebrating. I will be cooking some mangsho this weekend :D

tonmoy.dhaka
August 28, 2018, 01:28 PM
LOL it wasn't directed at you. But I missed your comebacks! Ah reminds me off the good old days.

And to Tonmoy, no offense intended. You should feel free to share your opinions and theology discussions. I am not even a mod and so my word has little value and can ignore me.

Belated Eid Mubarak to whoever was celebrating. I will be cooking some mangsho this weekend :D

If your argument is logically sound than it is valuable. Being a mod or not has very little to do with it.
The only reason I deleted my post was because I believed that there was merit in your post.

I have been with BC for few years now (not many), I have lost a lot of interest in cricket in this time, so my only post these days involve religion (since I feel strongly about it). However as much as you may dislike what I write, I have never been warned or banned by the mods because I know the boundaries permitted by the forum rules.

Enjoy the mangsho!! Not sure anyone is still celebrating eid, but since u r so Eid mubarak.

mufi_02
August 28, 2018, 02:07 PM
If your argument is logically sound than it is valuable. Being a mod or not has very little to do with it.
The only reason I deleted my post was because I believed that there was merit in your post.

I have been with BC for few years now (not many), I have lost a lot of interest in cricket in this time, so my only post these days involve religion (since I feel strongly about it). However as much as you may dislike what I write, I have never been warned or banned by the mods because I know the boundaries permitted by the forum rules.

Enjoy the mangsho!! Not sure anyone is still celebrating eid, but since u r so Eid mubarak.

I won't comment on mod's policy. I leave whats allowed or not upto them. Doesn't matter if I like or dislike really.

eid mubarak to you too.

Rifat
August 28, 2018, 02:09 PM
Hajj Mubarak. InshahAllah hope you and orher’s Hajj are accepted.

My brother in law and his wife arriving early hours of tomorrow

thanks...There is nothing sweeter than Du'a getting accepted by Allah even when it seems "impossible". I lost my phone which had my driver's license and debit card. Alhamdulillah. I got it back right before my flight!

adamnsu
August 28, 2018, 02:16 PM
thanks...There is nothing sweeter than Du'a getting accepted by Allah even when it seems "impossible". I lost my phone which had my driver's license and debit card. Alhamdulillah. I got it back right before my flight!

SubanAllah! What a way to end Hajj. Thanks for sharing

iDumb
August 28, 2018, 02:57 PM
Alhamdulillah :) came back from Hajj. it was quite an experience...

Congratulations Rifat. I expect a detailed post in a different thread maybe. THis has been hijacked and I think I am partly to be blamed also.

al Furqaan
August 28, 2018, 03:18 PM
What I can state however is that Imam Al Ghazali embraced Sufism which is frowned upon by the Sunni Muslims.

I don't think this is necessarily true. There are Shias who are sufi and Sunnis that are sufi. Sufism is just an ethereal take on whatever aqeedah (faith principle, Sunni/Shia/etc) one already has. So a Shia sufi might believe for example that one can become attuned to the will of the 12 Imams whilst a Sunni sufi might believe the same about the Rashidun caliphate.

For example I know a sufi who follows the Maliki madhab of Sunni Islam (ie he's a sunni), but he's also a sufi because he believes, or at least talks of, things like wilaya, tariqas, etc.

from wikipedia:

Although the overwhelming majority of Sufis, both pre-modern and modern, were and are adherents of Sunni Islam, there also developed certain strands of Sufi practice within the ambit of Shia Islam during the late medieval period.[5] Although Sufis were opposed to dry legalism, they strictly observed Islamic law and belonged to various schools of Islamic jurisprudence and theology.[15]

tonmoy.dhaka
August 28, 2018, 03:29 PM
I don't think this is necessarily true. There are Shias who are sufi and Sunnis that are sufi. Sufism is just an ethereal take on whatever aqeedah (faith principle, Sunni/Shia/etc) one already has. So a Shia sufi might believe for example that one can become attuned to the will of the 12 Imams whilst a Sunni sufi might believe the same about the Rashidun caliphate.

For example I know a sufi who follows the Maliki madhab of Sunni Islam (ie he's a sunni), but he's also a sufi because he believes, or at least talks of, things like wilaya, tariqas, etc.

from wikipedia:

Agreed.. I was not clear with the statement but sufism is described below in great/good detail by this NY times article. Also explains why the fundamentalist hate them.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/24/world/middleeast/sufi-muslim-explainer.html

One World
August 29, 2018, 12:33 PM
One World is enlightened. He is basically near the level of Ancient One lol.

Missed your posts. It's a privilege to have you in the forum.

And no I used unsalted Keri Gold grass fed butter.

Had to appreciate such warm acknowledgment.

A big welcome hug for you!:notworthy:

Zeeshan
August 30, 2018, 08:23 AM
LOL it wasn't directed at you. But I missed your comebacks! Ah reminds me off the good old days.

And to Tonmoy, no offense intended. You should feel free to share your opinions and theology discussions. I am not even a mod and so my word has little value and can ignore me.

Belated Eid Mubarak to whoever was celebrating. I will be cooking some mangsho this weekend :D

So why did you mention my name then?

Don't backtrack. And you are still deflecting.

I don't wanna drag past issues, but let us not forget didn't you act all nice and chummy on forum and in Facebook inbox amake okothyo vashay tui tokkari kore rastaar cheleder moton gali galaj kora hoyeche?

YOU thought that since I practice Taoism and follow Buddhist concepts which talk of passivity, peace and killing the ego and being submissive and yielding.... YOU thought I will not react.

YOU thought you could abuse the hell out of me and my hands would be tied. Don't for a moment think we don't see through it all.

You act all nice and the moment you gain my trust, you lash out and make personal attacks either sub rosa or publicly in passive-aggressive manner. I wish you the best and hope you get therapy as this is a classic ploy of narcissistic personality disorder.

I am an a---- but at least I am consistently an a---- and don't hide it.

Not only that but Zaved also partook it in. And it's only because of my stance on Islam. Not only that - and damn right I am publicly calling out Orpheus/iDumb- why is it that he always strategically picks fight with people who has "Islamophobia"?

-Arnab
-Yankee
-Roey
-Jadukor
-Zeeshan

And God knows who else. This is a strategic, concentrated concerted effort to subtly bully people whose ideas you dissent and the plot and machination of which takes place in BC "meetups". I brought it numerous times in PM to mods's attention but sadly it fell into deaf ears.

Only person I am letting off the hook is Roman. Something tells me the dude don't wanna partake in libel, backbiting and slander.

And you still haven't apologized for it.

Tell me Mustafa, is that how a Muslim carries himself? I ask.

Edit: Water under the bridge. Past is past. I return here in peace.