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Roey Haque
August 21, 2018, 09:18 PM
So I am an agnostic, don't really subscribe to any one faith or the other. But I can't help but notice in my spiritual seeking that Hinduism easily runs circles around the Abrahamic faiths in terms of philosophy? So many things are allowed, and you are supposed to be questioning everything while reaching your truths, which there can be many by the way.

I was wondering if anyone else feels the same way in their spiritual research/journey, irrespective of their faith or lack there of?

BengaliPagol
August 21, 2018, 11:55 PM
so are you saying abrahamic traditions don't tell you to question things and Hinduism does?

DinRaat.
August 22, 2018, 08:29 AM
BC swept by the PCorrect Army. Hopefully this is just a phase, was at a Khutbah at UNSW, Imam said "Is being normal the right thing to do nowadays"

Roey Haque
August 22, 2018, 10:44 AM
so are you saying abrahamic traditions don't tell you to question things and Hinduism does?

Right. Would you know of anything that says otherwise? From my understanding, hell fires await you if don't follow the commandments of the holy books, and that some of the biggest commandments are keeping your faith,not associating any partners with god, believing in the legitimacy of Muhammad, and all that. Whatever amount of you research and soul seeking you do, you CANNOT come to the conclusion of god being more than one, or the falsehood of Muhammad. Right?

tonmoy.dhaka
August 22, 2018, 12:36 PM
Philosophically speaking.

None of the religion (Abrahamic or Otherwise including hinduism) would stand the test of human logic if you question everything.

Yankees
August 22, 2018, 12:42 PM
Hinduism is the oldest of all the religions. It's open, outward mentality has allowed it to not only survive for so long, but also allowed it to become the base on which other religions and thoughts were formed and developed - Jainism, Buddhism, Sikhism. That deserves to be recognized.

The Eastern religions (add confucianism, Shinto to this list) don't deal in absolute terms (except Sikhism), whereas the Abrahamic Big 3 are all about total submission to 1 and only 1 absolute being, and rewarding those that submit – Do x, y, z and salvation awaits you!!! Yes YOU!

These are fundamental differences. Now if you think that setup allows one to ask questions, I would like to hear how.

Yankees
August 22, 2018, 12:49 PM
I think Roey is giving Hindus too much credit. The truth is they are no different than Abrahamic worshippers - pray to their respective deities without challenging the status quo.

I would argue that, for an agnostic, the "religion" of choice should be Buddhism or Jainism. That's because these aren't necessarily religions, but more of a philosophical way of life. To be a Buddhist is to seek enlightenment, to be a student of life. Jainsim is all about ahimsa. These are Godless practices, or rather, practices which doesn't pretend to know or claim of God's existence. Instead they are concerned with what you can do right here and right now. Buddha was a seeker of truth, not a preacher of God.

tonmoy.dhaka
August 22, 2018, 12:56 PM
I think Roey is giving Hindus too much credit. The truth is they are no different than Abrahamic worshippers - pray to their respective deities without challenging the status quo.

I would argue that, for an agnostic, the "religion" of choice should be Buddhism or Jainism. That's because these aren't necessarily religions, but more of a philosophical way of life. To be a Buddhist is to seek enlightenment, to be a student of life. Jainsim is all about ahimsa. These are Godless practices, or rather, practices which doesn't pretend to know or claim of God's existence. Instead they are concerned with what you can do right here and right now. Buddha was a seeker of truth, not a preacher of God.

Completely agree!!

Religion is also big business. Possibly the best business ever, you generate money by providing hope to people without ever having to deliver anything material in return.

ToBeFair
August 22, 2018, 02:15 PM
Right. Would you know of anything that says otherwise? From my understanding, hell fires await you if don't follow the commandments of the holy books, and that some of the biggest commandments are keeping your faith,not associating any partners with god, believing in the legitimacy of Muhammad, and all that. Whatever amount of you research and soul seeking you do, you CANNOT come to the conclusion of god being more than one, or the falsehood of Muhammad. Right?

To put concisely, this is the classic age old battle of reason vs revelation.

Islamic theologians and philosophers since the medieval ages have contemplated over the (apparent) clash between reason and revelation. The question was: what if human logic and reasoning conclude that revelation is false?

From Imam Ghazali to Ibn Taymia, scholars of different Islamic theological strands wrote volumes in answering this philosophical question. Seventh century polymath Ibn Taymiyya wrote a ten-volume work, Darʾ taʿāruḍ al-ʿaql wa-l-naql (‘Averting the Conflict of Reason with Revelation’). The conclusion of his work was following:

Since the origin of both the reason and revelation is same (God), there is actually no conflict between them.

To understand how he came to this conclusion, you have to read ten volumes. Fortunately, contemporary American scholar of Islam Dr. Yasir Qadhi did his phd on this topic where he summarized Ibn Taymiyya's work. His thesis is titled:

RECONCILING REASON AND REVELATION IN THE WRITINGS OF IBN TAYMIYYA (d. 728/1328): An Analytical Study of Ibn Taymiyya’s Darʾ al-t a ʿ ā r uḍ

You can read it here (https://ia802804.us.archive.org/23/items/YasirQadhiDissertation/Yasir-Qadhi-dissertation.pdf).

This is a difficult read.

If you want a layperson understanding of his Phd thesis, you may watch/listen to the following lectures:

Ibn Taymiyya: A Summary of Dr. Yasir Qadhi's dissertation at Yale University (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn0QbNUbh7I)

The Human Fitrah - The pure innate nature of Man - Yasir Qadhi | 14th September 2012 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjXKKdbPcgA)

Knowing God: Reason, Revelation, and Intuition - Yasir Qadhi (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2K6-cvv6yY)

The Role of Revelation & Reason in a Post-Modernist Age ~ Dr. Yasir Qadhi | 30th April 2014 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMeNqqwDimI)

Roey Haque
August 22, 2018, 02:27 PM
I think Roey is giving Hindus too much credit. The truth is they are no different than Abrahamic worshippers - pray to their respective deities without challenging the status quo.


No my friend. That is what I used to think, that it's just deity worship. But actually there is no provision that says you must do it, it has become the culture where the community find solace in following traditions. With Hinduism, you are allowed to go in so many directions, including declaring yourself a Godman! This is a HUGE sin in the abrahamic traditions, but because you are free to question the nature of the truth in Hinduism, you can reach your own conclusions. It is even encouraged. So if you like Ganesha, good for you. If you think you are divine yourself, good for you, if you like atheism (yes, there is even room for atheism in the Vedas), then good for you, if you like Allah(which is just the arabic word for God), then good for you. Seeking and questioning is allowed.

As you rightly pointed out, it is open architecture, and thus it can birth so many new religions and ideas from it, and co exist harmoniously with others. I don't think Abrahamic faiths allow this. More disturbing is, two of the Abrahamic faiths, Islam and Christianity encourage proselytizing others, meaning they get rewarded if they can convert you.

But maybe I am mistaken about the abrahamic faiths, will try reading TobeFair's link.

Yankees
August 22, 2018, 02:40 PM
No my friend. That is what I used to think, that it's just deity worship. But actually there is no provision that says you must do it, it has become the culture where the community find solace in following traditions. With Hinduism, you are allowed to go in so many directions, including declaring yourself a Godman! This is a HUGE sin in the abrahamic traditions, but because you are free to question the nature of the truth in Hinduism, you can reach your own conclusions. It is even encouraged. So if you like Ganesha, good for you. If you think you are divine yourself, good for you, if you like atheism (yes, there is even room for atheism in the Vedas), then good for you, if you like Allah(which is just the arabic word for God), then good for you. Seeking and questioning is allowed.

Notice I said Hindus and not Hinduism. Your average hindu doesn't seek out Ganesh or Durga anymore than a Muslim seeks out Allah. They do it because they are taught to do it. Just because the flexibility is there doesn't mean it's utilized.


As you rightly pointed out, it is open architecture, and thus it can birth so many new religions and ideas from it, and co exist harmoniously with others. I don't think Abrahamic faiths allow this. More disturbing is, two of the Abrahamic faiths, Islam and Christianity encourage proselytizing others, meaning they get rewarded if they can convert you.

It's the holy version of multi-level marketing. That kind of reward system makes you question the motives.

Roey Haque
August 22, 2018, 02:44 PM
^ It seems like we agree. Let us check out ToBeFair's links.

So I have heard some of his lectures before, Yasir Qadri. In one lecture, he was saying not to study Islamic studies, because it makes you question your faith, and that he personally knew many people who left Islam after studying Islam. Highly ironic, ain't it?

Roey Haque
August 22, 2018, 02:55 PM
How about this. The Koran can't hold a candle to the Rigveda in terms of reason or philosophy. But the trick abrahamic faiths use is that of linear time, that their version of sacredness somehow co-opts everything said before. You can see the fallacies in this, but I won't go into that.

I want to focus on time itself. Linear, like the abrahamic faiths are so sure of. Or eternal (cyclical?) like the Dharmic faiths (Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism and Sikkhism) espouse?

SportingBD
August 22, 2018, 02:55 PM
So I have heard some of his lectures before, Yasir Qadri. In one lecture, he was saying not to study Islamic studies, because it makes you question your faith, and that he personally knew many people who left Islam after studying Islam. Highly ironic, ain't it?


Can you please post a reference link to this? I would like to hear why he would say that.
It will also help me to understand that your not posting something made up about Yasir Qadri.

mufi_02
August 22, 2018, 02:57 PM
interesting thread.

honestly I do not much about Hinduism. I am not even sure what their holy book is. but growing up in BD, of course we are familiar with durga puja and their holy figures. but I noticed Indians (of non bengali origin) have their own customs and holidays. So I think it varies quiet a lot in practice among various regions.

finally, let's not make this into an interfaith discussion and who is right or wrong. I am just curious to know about hinduism. Would be nice to hear from fellow hindu BC members.

Roey Haque
August 22, 2018, 03:02 PM
Can you please post a reference link to this? I would like to hear why he would say that.
It will also help me to understand that your not posting something made up about Yasir Qadri.

This was a while back, so I don't remember which video. But after doing a quick search on academic causing loss of faith, I think this was it.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/kb6TdUVPcE4" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

tonmoy.dhaka
August 22, 2018, 03:06 PM
Since we are talking about hinduism.. I want to understand why some preachers of Monotheism scoff at some of these hindu practices and ideas but accepts similar ideas in Abrahamic religious teachings?

1/ I know people scoff at idol worship although it is purely symbolic. I dont think any hindus believe that they can make a god out of a stone. Muslims pray towards the direction of Kaaba which also symbolises the house of God. Similarly One of the rituals of Hajj is stoning the devil (which is nothing but a stone pillar). So why is one symbolism scoffed at while the other loved so much?

2/ We all consider the vedic texts (hindu literature ) as mythology (rightly so). We laugh at some of the extraordinary claims made in the literature, yet there are stories inside Abrahamic religions which defies any logic and no evidence to back up those extraordinary claims.

2a/ The extraordinary claim amongst muslims that the moon was split in two has no basis in facts. Ofcourse such an incident would generate severe panic, would be witnessed by masses and would have some literary evidence, but none exist. Not even going to speak about the impact it would have on the earths rotation.

2b/ Buraq (a beast that prophet used to travel to Jerusalem). Again, not sure anyone independently witnessed this mythical creature. Surely God does not need to send a creature to transport the prophet, He can just teleport the prophet. If the prophet did travel on the back of the creature, then the flight path has to be very low to the ground. It cannot be too fast (as claimed by many) or the G force would be too much for any man (and prophet is a man )... I can go on and on and on...

As i said, if you ask critical questions, there are no logical answers.. Faith is the only answer. I believe so it must be true.. Or as is the case with most, if I am wrong about God there is no harm, but if I am right, I will go to heaven. No loss scenario...

SportingBD
August 22, 2018, 03:10 PM
This was a while back, so I don't remember which video. But after doing a quick search on academic causing loss of faith, I think this was it.

<IFRAME height=315 src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/kb6TdUVPcE4" frameBorder=0 width=560 allowfullscreen allow="autoplay; encrypted-media"></IFRAME>

Thank you :up:

He did not say 'not to study Islamic studies'. Rather he said, he doesn't have answers to some of the doubtful questions/subjects.

mufi_02
August 22, 2018, 03:14 PM
okay this is turning out to be islam vs hinduism discussion. thus I am outta here :D

Roey Haque
August 22, 2018, 03:36 PM
^HAHAHA. Not yet. Everyone has been good thus far. But it can go wrong any moment, so let's be wary folks. I think Tonmoy raises some good points, let's wait and see if someone will answer them.

BengaliPagol
August 22, 2018, 06:40 PM
Right. Would you know of anything that says otherwise? From my understanding, hell fires await you if don't follow the commandments of the holy books, and that some of the biggest commandments are keeping your faith,not associating any partners with god, believing in the legitimacy of Muhammad, and all that. Whatever amount of you research and soul seeking you do, you CANNOT come to the conclusion of god being more than one, or the falsehood of Muhammad. Right?

The whole premise in Islam is that while you do reflect deeply and contemplate on the world around you and ponder and research and not just follow society then you will come to the conclusion that God exists and Prophet Muhammad SAW is the Last and final Messenger.


[This is] a blessed Book which We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], that they might reflect upon its verses and that those of understanding would be reminded. (Sad 38:29)

Then do they not reflect upon the Qur’an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah , they would have found within it much contradiction. (An-Nisa‘ 4:82)

Then do they not reflect upon the Qur’an, or are there locks upon [their] hearts? (Muhammad: 24)

[This is] a Book whose verses are perfected and then presented in detail from [one who is] Wise and Acquainted. (Hud 11:1)

Say, ‘O my Lord! Advance me in knowledge. (Taha 20:114)

“Do they not reflect in their own minds?” (30:8)

“Were they created from nothing or are they themselves the creators? Or did they create the heavens and earth? Nay but they see not.” (52: 35-36)

This is a message to all people, so that they may be warned by it, and know that He is the only God, and so that those who have minds may take heed (Qurʾān 14:52).

Verily! In the creation of the heavens and the earth, and in the alternation of night and day, there are indeed signs for men of understanding. Those who remember Allah, standing, sitting, and reclining, and reflect on the creation of the heavens and the earth, (and say): Our Lord! You have not created this in vain. Glory be to You! Protect us from the torment of the fire (Qurʾān 3:190-191).

The question lies how much has the person really genuinely looked at the religions searching for the Truth or how much is the person going by social norm, or whims and desires or possibly being a pure skeptic for the sake of being a skeptic.

BengaliPagol
August 22, 2018, 07:01 PM
To put concisely, this is the classic age old battle of reason vs revelation.

Islamic theologians and philosophers since the medieval ages have contemplated over the (apparent) clash between reason and revelation. The question was: what if human logic and reasoning conclude that revelation is false?

From Imam Ghazali to Ibn Taymia, scholars of different Islamic theological strands wrote volumes in answering this philosophical question. Seventh century polymath Ibn Taymiyya wrote a ten-volume work, Darʾ taʿāruḍ al-ʿaql wa-l-naql (‘Averting the Conflict of Reason with Revelation’). The conclusion of his work was following:

Since the origin of both the reason and revelation is same (God), there is actually no conflict between them.

To understand how he came to this conclusion, you have to read ten volumes. Fortunately, contemporary American scholar of Islam Dr. Yasir Qadhi did his phd on this topic where he summarized Ibn Taymiyya's work. His thesis is titled:

RECONCILING REASON AND REVELATION IN THE WRITINGS OF IBN TAYMIYYA (d. 728/1328): An Analytical Study of Ibn Taymiyya’s Darʾ al-t a ʿ ā r uḍ

You can read it here (https://ia802804.us.archive.org/23/items/YasirQadhiDissertation/Yasir-Qadhi-dissertation.pdf).

This is a difficult read.

If you want a layperson understanding of his Phd thesis, you may watch/listen to the following lectures:

The Human Fitrah - The pure innate nature of Man - Yasir Qadhi | 14th September 2012 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjXKKdbPcgA)

Knowing God: Reason, Revelation, and Intuition - Yasir Qadhi (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2K6-cvv6yY)

The Role of Revelation & Reason in a Post-Modernist Age ~ Dr. Yasir Qadhi | 30th April 2014 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMeNqqwDimI)

People worship rationalisation to such a degree. In Imam Ghazali's "Deliverance From Error" he talks about the Sufis really experiencing Truth. Rationalisation that people use need to be "checked" by something or have a bearing. An Atheist will use rationalisation to try assert God doesn't exist and a Theist will use rationalisation and use induction/deduction to show God exists. They are both using the same means to come to completely different conclusions.

So you have to ask yourself, how do you truly reach Truth? These are conversations that were had by theologians alike for many centuries and many books were written. So when I see random BC members make such blanket statements about religion being false if you are rational and yaddi yadda it is quite laughable to say the least because they choose to be selectively ignorant about topics and subject matters, more than likely their hate is coming from an emotional place rather than a logical one.

Roey Haque
August 22, 2018, 08:32 PM
The whole premise in Islam is that while you do reflect deeply and contemplate on the world around you and ponder and research and not just follow society then you will come to the conclusion that God exists and Prophet Muhammad SAW is the Last and final Messenger.

Thank you for your clarification. So as I understand it, it's kind of like working backwards? You are declaring a premise as the absolute truth, and then rationalizing it by any means necessary.

Because if we DO partake in research and not just follow society, as you say, then we find inconsistencies in religion which cannot be explained. (read Tonmoy's post for example to see a list of intra-faith contradictions). Because when you shine a historical and geographical lens on any religion, you can explain away how the ideas came to be.

Now back to my original point, and purpose for creating the thread, at least the dharmic faiths tell me to be on a spiritual quest, and make up my mind. While the abrahamic faiths tell me that to tow the party line or else face hell fire. Yes, seeking is allowed like you say (through later interpretations I assume, because Koran is very clear on punishment for those who disbelieve), as long as you reach the same conclusion. But we cannot call that seeking then, if you are not willing to have your mind changed.

One World
August 22, 2018, 09:04 PM
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/neanderthal-hybrid-girl-discovery-cave-ancient-humans-denisovan-russia-a8503191.html


No -ism no cry

Yankees
August 22, 2018, 10:36 PM
The whole premise in Islam is that while you do reflect deeply and contemplate on the world around you and ponder and research and not just follow society then you will come to the conclusion that God exists and Prophet Muhammad SAW is the Last and final Messenger.

So you're allowed to contemplate as long as you come to the same conclusion? And what if you don't, then what? It seems what you've said is actually in agreement with Roey even if you didnt intend to.


The question lies how much has the person really genuinely looked at the religions searching for the Truth or how much is the person going by social norm, or whims and desires or possibly being a pure skeptic for the sake of being a skeptic.

I disagree with that. Most muslims live within muslim societies. If aything, it's the other way around. Society plays a heavy hand in a Muslims belief system. And btw, nobody is a skeptic for the sake of being a skeptic. That kind of dismissive tone only weakens your position. A healthy dose of skepticism does the world a lot of good.

BengaliPagol
August 22, 2018, 10:38 PM
Thank you for your clarification. So as I understand it, it's kind of like working backwards? You are declaring a premise as the absolute truth, and then rationalizing it by any means necessary.

Because if we DO partake in research and not just follow society, as you say, then we find inconsistencies in religion which cannot be explained. (read Tonmoy's post for example to see a list of intra-faith contradictions). Because when you shine a historical and geographical lens on any religion, you can explain away how the ideas came to be.

Now back to my original point, and purpose for creating the thread, at least the dharmic faiths tell me to be on a spiritual quest, and make up my mind. While the abrahamic faiths tell me that to tow the party line or else face hell fire. Yes, seeking is allowed like you say (through later interpretations I assume, because Koran is very clear on punishment for those who disbelieve), as long as you reach the same conclusion. But we cannot call that seeking then, if you are not willing to have your mind changed.

you can do whatever you want. It is your life at the end of the day. People say their spiritual experiences lie in smoking weed or tripping on acid. Or worshiping their ancestors and calling out to spirits. All this could be a so called spiritual quest.

But will this lead to any truth? What is your standard for Truth?

I think the whole punishment thing bugs people. To just "oh yeah people disbelieve go to hellfire" is throwing red herrings, just because a belief system says that doesn't mean it isn't true. Islam for e.g. is merely based on the foundation that God exists and Prophets have been sent to guide Mankind. Rules and regulations that consist within a religion is a means to get closer with God.

People like to throw the whole idea of religious people trying to rationalise everything in regards to their belief but ironically non-believers do the exact same thing. The thing is that they themselves don't realise it.

Apologies if I am sounding harsh. That isn't my objective.

BengaliPagol
August 22, 2018, 10:54 PM
I disagree with that. Most muslims live within muslim societies. If aything, it's the other way around. Society plays a heavy hand in a Muslims belief system. And btw, nobody is a skeptic for the sake of being a skeptic. That kind of dismissive tone only weakens your position. A healthy dose of skepticism does the world a lot of good.

I don't disagree with you. Socialisation does play an affect for both belief and disbelief. That is why I am saying to be cognizant of the fact that you aren't just believing in what you believe in just because of the society and the people around you.

Dismissive tone? Dose of skepticism is fine.I never said not to be a skeptic.

I am addressing people who play the skeptic card to an extreme to the point they question if they even existing at the moment or not in some alternate universe etc etc. Imam al-Ghazali was so skeptic about existence and life that he fell ill. Then he wrote books about his experience and journey to Truth.

Yankees
August 22, 2018, 10:59 PM
I am addressing people who play the skeptic card to an extreme to the point they question if they even existing at the moment or not in some alternate universe etc etc.

LOL. fair enough.

Roey Haque
August 22, 2018, 11:09 PM
Imam al-Ghazali was so skeptic about existence and life that he fell ill. Then he wrote books about his experience and journey to Truth.

This part is very interesting to me. Indeed, it is not hard to imagine how that can happen. Let me ask you this, I know you are very well versed in Islam. From a philosophical pov, is there one truth? Or many truths?

BengaliPagol
August 22, 2018, 11:30 PM
This part is very interesting to me. Indeed, it is not hard to imagine how that can happen. Let me ask you this, I know you are very well versed in Islam. From a philosophical pov, is there one truth? Or many truths?

I am not well versed in Islam but i do run a Muslim podcast so I know the basics.

By default you cannot have multiplicity of Truths because aspects of one Truth will contradict another Truth, kinda like how you cannot have multiple Gods or else it causes chaos and disorder.

BengaliPagol
August 22, 2018, 11:37 PM
Islamically speaking though there are bits and bobs of Truth in other religions. Islam is one of the few religions that explain why other religions exist. Prophets were sent to other nations and the Message got corrupted over time. Even people can argue Buddha was a Prophet in Islam by the name Dhul Kilf.

Islam isn't an exclusive religion per say because the end goal is to get closer to God the correct way (i.e. The Sunnah). Someone who lived in the forest who believed God is One their whole life without being exposed to Islamic scripture will be saved on the Day of Judgement.

Islamically speaking everyone has a fitrah and people will come to Truth going off their fitrah alone. Don't need revelation per say.

Roey Haque
August 22, 2018, 11:39 PM
Islamically speaking though there are bits and bobs of Truth in other religions. Islam is one of the few religions that explain why other religions exist. Prophets were sent to other nations and the Message got corrupted over time. Even people can argue Buddha was a Prophet in Islam by the name Dhul Kilf.


^Ok, well, that is consistent with your belief. Each prophet comes and digests all truths before him and unifies into a singular truth. Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, Joseph Smith(mormonism), Mirza Ghulam (ahmadiya). Linear time. I get it.

I think the other view could also be entertained, that there is only the now,eternal time,not linear. And you can choose any God that you wish that gives you meaning. Or if you absolutely won't budge from monotheism, then I can simply say that one God split himself/herself into many parts and chose to be in all these forms. It's all semantics really, however you want to play with words.

dolcevita
August 23, 2018, 06:51 AM
Is cast system related to hinduism ?

tonmoy.dhaka
August 23, 2018, 08:03 AM
Someone who lived in the forest who believed God is One their whole life without being exposed to Islamic scripture will be saved on the Day of Judgement.


Very convenient!! Now let me ask you this ( through critical reasoning)

How is it that God is so inefficient?
1/ He chose a method to convey his message to his pupil (through prophets) that is highly ineffective and inefficient given that even after more than 1000+ years the message has still not reached everyone.

2/ He decided to create those men/women living in the forest or the arctic regions. If he created men/women to serve him than why create people who will never get his message in the first place?

3/ Why would the message get corrupted with previous prophets? God must know better surely?

4/ What makes you think the message of Islam is not corrupted? I see different sects inside Islam, constant infighting amongst the sects, some even believe that certain sects of Islam (ahmadiya) are non muslims... So surely even islam got corrupted? So the last prophet did a bad job?

5/ Lets say, I go and give the Islamc scripture to the Amazonian tribes or the Inuit, now does that make them sinners if they dont obey? What does exposure entail?

6/I keep on hearing that the scripture is so complicated that it is only to be understood completely through the Islamic scholars... Why would God create a scripture so complicated if it is meant for the masses?

I can again go on and on!! If you use critical reasoning, there are many flaws in religion and the idea of God.

ToBeFair
August 23, 2018, 09:51 AM
People worship rationalisation to such a degree. In Imam Ghazali's "Deliverance From Error" he talks about the Sufis really experiencing Truth. Rationalisation that people use need to be "checked" by something or have a bearing. An Atheist will use rationalisation to try assert God doesn't exist and a Theist will use rationalisation and use induction/deduction to show God exists. They are both using the same means to come to completely different conclusions.

So you have to ask yourself, how do you truly reach Truth? These are conversations that were had by theologians alike for many centuries and many books were written. So when I see random BC members make such blanket statements about religion being false if you are rational and yaddi yadda it is quite laughable to say the least because they choose to be selectively ignorant about topics and subject matters, more than likely their hate is coming from an emotional place rather than a logical one.

Philosophical or rational approach to the existence of God or the veracity of Islam is not the Prophetic method of da'wa. However, I have immersed myself in philosophical readings in these matters because of (1) personal interest/curiosity (2) to intellectually debunk (sometimes and not always because it is often not productive) the claims of the atheists.

With regards to the existence of one God, in my humble opinion, there are many convincing and full proof arguments available - the cosmological argument, the argument from design, the argument from contingency, the argument from moral objectivity and moral oughtness, the argument from the hard problem of consciousness (subjective experience), and so on.

Majority of these arguments are quite strong or at least shows that there is strong intellectual reason to believe in the existence of an all-powerful God instead of rejecting Him. However, despite reading numerous articles and watching countless hours of theism vs atheism debates, I have not come across any atheist who intellectually deconstructed these arguments and provided a logical/intellectual alternative for atheistic worldview. Rather, all atheists, often resort to bullying and dismissing, and conclude with the following:

(1) When they cannot defeat the argument for God's existence or provide an alternative, they say that they agree with the argument, but the conclusion does not necessary has to be God. They say the God of theists is simply the God of the gap whereas they, being atheists, prefer to remain in the state of ‘don’t know’. Atheists claim that not knowing and accepting and being open about not knowing is what drives future research and study whereas the God of the gap hinders this approach.

(2) Despite showing convincing argument for the existence of God, they reject God because they cannot solve the problem of evil. If logical argument points to God's existence, not understanding the problem of evil is not a good ground to reject God.

(3) Being science worshipper they want empirical proof for everything including God’s existence. But they miss a few points (a) God is outside the realm of time space, thus empirical proof is not possible (b) empiricism/science is not the only source of knowledge (c) just because science works does not mean it is true. Science is based on observation. If you observe 1 million white sheep does not mean the 1million+1th sheep will be white.

As for the veracity of Islam and the prophethood of Muhammad (pbuh), this is a separate issue. The proof of Islam and Muhammad (pbuh)'s prophethood is so overwhelming that orientalists have tried for centuries to explain away the prophethood of Muhammad (pbuh) but failed.

Few reasons are:

(1) The prophecies of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Numerous of his prophecies came true and are still coming true. How did an imposter from 7th century Arabia make such bold predictions?

(2) The amount of knowledge Islam came with. Quran, hadith, law and jurisprudence, the language of Arabic - are only few sciences. Each science has many divsions and sub divisions and you can become an expert in each sub-division. How is it possible for an unlettered Arab prophet to came up with such vast amount of knowledge out of nowhere?

(3) The perfect theology of Islam. No religion has the more perfect concept of God than that of Islam. This prefect theology is not only demonstrated in concept in Quran but also demonstrated in each and every ritual and prophetic tradition. This consistency is not possible if the Prophet was an imposter.

(4) The very detailed Islamic law. Islamic law is vast as well as very detailed. How did this unlettered Prophet (pbuh) come up with such detailed law?

aklemalp
August 23, 2018, 09:56 AM
My contribution to this thread: I'm a Hindu

mufi_02
August 23, 2018, 10:22 AM
My contribution to this thread: I'm a Hindu

finally. not sure how comfortable you are sharing info but I will ask --

1. how diff is hinduism in guyana compared to India? do you adhere to any particular sect and what are the major ones in hinduism?
2. what is your holy book?
3. what is the most fundamental creed of hinduism? (i.e. oneness of God in Islam, accepting Jesus as savior in Christianity).
4. do you guys do holi/durga puja or other religious festivals?
5. is meat not allowed across all hinduism? we know beef is not allowed but I seem some are fully vegan.

Yankees
August 23, 2018, 02:11 PM
finally. not sure how comfortable you are sharing info but I will ask --

1. how diff is hinduism in guyana compared to India? do you adhere to any particular sect and what are the major ones in hinduism?
2. what is your holy book?
3. what is the most fundamental creed of hinduism? (i.e. oneness of God in Islam, accepting Jesus as savior in Christianity).
4. do you guys do holi/durga puja or other religious festivals?
5. is meat not allowed across all hinduism? we know beef is not allowed but I seem some are fully vegan.

Feels like alot of this could just be googled. Hinduism doesnt have 1 holy book, they have collection of scriptures, with the most prominent the Vedas. Meat is allowed and different hindus have different guidelines. Bengali Hindus eat meat, fish. Some south Indian hindus even eat beef. There is no 1 golden rule.

mufi_02
August 23, 2018, 03:52 PM
^literally everything can be found by googling these days. but we all ask anyway on a forum right. its just hard to find unbiased views/opinions in internet esp on religion. thanks for the answers though.

I just wanted to know what is the most fundamental creed of modern hinduism.

aklemalp
August 23, 2018, 04:23 PM
finally. not sure how comfortable you are sharing info but I will ask --

1. how diff is hinduism in guyana compared to India? do you adhere to any particular sect and what are the major ones in hinduism?
2. what is your holy book?
3. what is the most fundamental creed of hinduism? (i.e. oneness of God in Islam, accepting Jesus as savior in Christianity). 
4. do you guys do holi/durga puja or other religious festivals?
5. is meat not allowed across all hinduism? we know beef is not allowed but I seem some are fully vegan.



1. how diff is hinduism in guyana compared to India? do you adhere to any particular sect and what are the major ones in hinduism?

Most of what I know is that my foreparents came from different parts of India, and they brought their own to the New World. So along the way, lots of stuff may have been lost in transit/also translation...but there is one thing all tend to gravitate towards. That is Sanatan Dharma . I am not deep into it at all. I follow the traditions and customs. I might be too vague here, but I can't find a better word.

Regarding sects, I know for a fact that there are groups of people whose foreparents came from the part of India called Madras, and they follow the  Mother (Durga, Kali, Lakshmi, etc). Since most of my childhood friends were Madrasi, I always go yearly for Kali Puja.
 There is International Society for Krishna Consciousness (ISKCON). The temple was a few villages away from me. I used to go there for every Krishna Janam Ashtmi  (birth of Krishna).

2. what is your holy book?

In my village temple, the priest usually read from the Shri Ramcharitamanas and the Bhagavad Gita, the Ved Purans, The Upanishads. As I said earlier, I'm not a keen follower, but I have seen the Ramayan tv show.

3. what is the most fundamental creed of hinduism? (i.e. oneness of God in Islam, accepting Jesus as savior in Christianity).

As stated earlier, It's Sanatan Dharma...eternal bliss. For me, it is mostly that, I tend to follow Buddhism a bit because of this.

4. do you guys do holi/durga puja or other religious festivals?
 Yes, and more. We have Shiv Ratra,  Ram Nauvmi, Basant Panchmi, Petry Paaksh, etc


5. is meat not allowed across all hinduism? we know beef is not allowed but I seem some are fully vegan. We don't eat beef.

It is allowed (In guyana). But on auspicious days, we fast  (not like full blown Ramadan fasting, just stay away from meat and fish). There are some people who I know actually went fully vegan.

******
In closing, I am less religious now than I was 10 years ago. I'm still glued to the culture though. Our unique culture (blended: Guyanese Indian)

al Furqaan
August 23, 2018, 05:58 PM
With Hinduism, you are allowed to go in so many directions, including declaring yourself a Godman! This is a HUGE sin in the abrahamic traditions, but because you are free to question the nature of the truth in Hinduism, you can reach your own conclusions. It is even encouraged. So if you like Ganesha, good for you. If you think you are divine yourself, good for you, if you like atheism (yes, there is even room for atheism in the Vedas), then good for you, if you like Allah(which is just the arabic word for God), then good for you. Seeking and questioning is allowed.



I think you are confusing a more new age Hindu-esque philosophy rather than any widely accepted "orthodox" (for lack of a better word) Hindu dogma. If any belief says "we are open to all beliefs, even those that are directly contradictory" thats not a belief at all. In fact that would be absence of any concrete belief. You can't say everything is acceptable, but eating beef means you can lynched by a mob, because then at least one thing is unacceptable.

The central precept of Hinduism is "truth is one, sages know it by many names". Yes, you are right, Hinduism is far more fluid than rigid Abrahamic faiths. But that doesn't mean its a "we house all ideas" faith.

I don't know much about Hinduism, admittedly. I've tried reading some of the scriptures but its extremely hard to figure out because so many names are dropped and the philosophy goes over my head.

But here's an interesting video I came across recently:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Vpi6maDZoLo" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

al Furqaan
August 23, 2018, 06:09 PM
A lot of people don't like Mufti Abu Layth, but I think he makes a lot of points that most "traditional" Islamic scholars/imams simply can't.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/W_EusxRSV_s" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

al Furqaan
August 23, 2018, 06:16 PM
There's only one difference between an atheist and a believer: the atheist can actually see his eternal truth whereas the believer can't.

If ask an atheist where the universe came from, they can only say "it always existed". Same with the believer and God(s).

Its just the believer has no evidence and the atheist is already standing on his.

Simply a matter of faith.

aklemalp
August 23, 2018, 06:17 PM
Isn't this a hinduism thread?

Roey Haque
August 23, 2018, 06:26 PM
Nice vids, and very insightful answers Aklemalp. Good questions Mufi.

I am finding a lot of people are agreeing with me that Dharmic faiths are more fluid , allow much more questioning/spiritual seeking than the Abrahamic faiths. That was all I was trying to establish. Culture in any form will ofcourse adhere to traditions and repeat itself. So yes, saffron robes, anti-beef propaganda is all there, I get that. But as I found out recently, I think most people underestimate Hinduism in terms of its vastness, just how many ideas it can actually simultaneously hold. It's almost more a philosophy and less a religion. Also from an agnostic pov, with a blank slate as a starting point, which branch of philosophies should I be more drawn to, Dharmic or Abhramic? One which tells me to seek, or one which tells me to submit? It really is interesting when you think of it that way. Seek or submit?

Btw, the six orthodox schools of thought in Hinduism from wiki.

Āstika
There are six āstika (orthodox) schools of thought.[note 3] Each is called a darśana, and each darśana accepts the Vedas as authoritative and the premise that ātman (soul, eternal self) exists.[3][26] The āstika schools are:

Samkhya, an atheistic and strongly dualist theoretical exposition of consciousness and matter.
Yoga, a school emphasising meditation, contemplation and liberation.
Nyāya or logic, which explores sources of knowledge. Nyāya Sūtras.
Vaiśeṣika, an empiricist school of atomism.
Mīmāṃsā, an anti-ascetic and anti-mysticist school of orthopraxy.
Vedānta, the last segment of knowledge in the Vedas, or jñānakāṇḍa. Vedānta came to be the dominant current of Hinduism in the post-medieval period.

mufi_02
August 23, 2018, 06:54 PM
Isn't this a hinduism thread?

Yup. Thanks for answering the questions. It’s much easier leaning from someone rather than just google. Coz your answers gives contexts which at least makes me understand better.

tonmoy.dhaka
August 23, 2018, 08:13 PM
There's only one difference between an atheist and a believer: the atheist can actually see his eternal truth whereas the believer can't.

If ask an atheist where the universe came from, they can only say "it always existed". Same with the believer and God(s).

Its just the believer has no evidence and the atheist is already standing on his.

Simply a matter of faith.

There is absolutely no similarity between an atheist/agnostic and a believer. We have completely different thought process. Most of us (agnostics) do not deny the existence of a superior being (creator), we just deny that the creator is what is being described in Abrahamic religion or Hinduism.

If you open another thread to critically analyse Abrahamic religions than I would gladly put forward everything that is wrong with it.

Also an atheist/agnostic never claims that the universe always existed (atleast not to my knowledge). We can explain everything that happened since the planks time (10 ^ -43 sec) after big bang to this very moment. We refuse to use God as an explanation for what happened between 0 and (10^-43s).

There can always be a God/creator but for our universe to exist and be the way it is, a creator is not absolutely necessary.

BengaliPagol
August 23, 2018, 09:19 PM
Very convenient!! Now let me ask you this ( through critical reasoning)

How is it that God is so inefficient?
1/ He chose a method to convey his message to his pupil (through prophets) that is highly ineffective and inefficient given that even after more than 1000+ years the message has still not reached everyone.

2/ He decided to create those men/women living in the forest or the arctic regions. If he created men/women to serve him than why create people who will never get his message in the first place?

3/ Why would the message get corrupted with previous prophets? God must know better surely?

4/ What makes you think the message of Islam is not corrupted? I see different sects inside Islam, constant infighting amongst the sects, some even believe that certain sects of Islam (ahmadiya) are non muslims... So surely even islam got corrupted? So the last prophet did a bad job?

5/ Lets say, I go and give the Islamc scripture to the Amazonian tribes or the Inuit, now does that make them sinners if they dont obey? What does exposure entail?

6/I keep on hearing that the scripture is so complicated that it is only to be understood completely through the Islamic scholars... Why would God create a scripture so complicated if it is meant for the masses?

I can again go on and on!! If you use critical reasoning, there are many flaws in religion and the idea of God.

You may think you are critically thinking. But none of the questions epistemologically address if Islam is the Truth or not. Apart from maybe question 4 but even Q. 4 is incoherent cos you trying to deduce that multiplicity of sects equates to corruption to Islam, which is a completely false assumption.

There are so many assumptions in your questions where it is quite evident that you won't be satisfied with any answer.

You think these questions are critically thinking but it is like trying to see a river but all you are seeing is a mirage. You are already holding a position that you don't want to believe in a religion AND then asking these questions.

Even the fact that you are asking these questions and ending on the note of I can again go on and on!! If you use critical reasoning, there are many flaws in religion and the idea of God"

is an assumption that the questions have no answers and if they did have the answers they are wrong, which is actually a belief if you think about it. lol

I hate getting into discussions like these over the internet. It achieves nothing. I prefer to dialogue face to face. Online dialogue is just slinging mud with real no substance, you ask questions, i answer and ask questions to you and so forth. And it just ends up being heated.

al Furqaan
August 23, 2018, 10:35 PM
There is absolutely no similarity between an atheist/agnostic and a believer. Most of us (agnostics) do not deny the existence of a superior being (creator), we just deny that the creator is what is being described in Abrahamic religion or Hinduism.

If you open another thread to critically analyse Abrahamic religions than I would gladly put forward everything that is wrong with it.

Also an atheist/agnostic never claims that the universe always existed (atleast not to my knowledge). We can explain everything that happened since the planks time (10 ^ -43 sec) after big bang to this very moment. We refuse to use God as an explanation for what happened between 0 and (10^-43s).

There can always be a God/creator but for our universe to exist and be the way it is, a creator is not absolutely necessary.

I'm not talking about the interval between the Big Bang and t = +1 Plank time. What happened before t = 0? For example what existed 1 second before the Big Bang? The atheist might say everything begins with the Big Bang, so there is nothing before it. Thats the same as a believer saying no one created God/Brahma/Allah/Yahweh/etc.

The only difference is that there is evidence to suggest the Big Bang (still unproven), whilst none exists for the existence of God (no reliable scientifically reliable evidence, and hence also unproven).

I'll admit, the atheist/agnostic does tend to be more rational than the believer. But at the core, they are both ultimately going to be reduced to the same type of answer:

"Space time ends at the Big Bang singularity so asking about a where or a time before it is [mathematically] pointless"

"God created everything, so asking who created God is pointless"

We have completely different thought process.

Which is proof that you have EXACTLY the same thought process once you strip it down, to the very first thing one can say.

Muslim: We have a completely different thought process.
Jew: We have a completely different thought process.
Christian: We have a completely different thought process.
Buddhist: We have a completely different thought process.
Hindu: We have a completely different thought process.

and

Atheist: We have a completely different thought process.

Its like the saying "unity in diversity" except this would be like "similarity through difference".

No one claims to possess exclusive ownership of truth except the extremely devout and the extremely atheist.

______________

The actual process might be different, sure. But the original input is the same:

Where did the Earth come from?
Atheist: Rock and dust left over from the formation of the solar system.
Devout: God made it.

So where did the solar system come from?
Atheist: Gas and dust left over from seperation of the galaxy.
Devout: God made it.

And where did the galaxies come from?
Atheist: Primordial matter from the Big Bang.
Devout: God made them.

Where did the Big Bang come from?
Atheist: It just happened.
Devout: God, who just happened to happen.

______________

So to conclude. You're right that in everday matters, for example eating pork, the atheist/agnostic is far more rational than the devout (Muslim/Jew won't eat it without giving any scientifically convincing argument while the atheist will eat it if he likes and won't if he doesn't). But when it comes to the most basic question of the origins of the the reality we find outrselves in, both answers are ultimately the same, one just has physical signs and the other is a pure belief.

Faith shouldn't be mistaken for science nor even compared to it. They each have their seperate roles to play in the human experience.

al Furqaan
August 23, 2018, 11:09 PM
One which tells me to seek, or one which tells me to submit? It really is interesting when you think of it that way. Seek or submit?


Well the Quran actually mentions both submission (which is what "islam" means) as well as tafakkur which is usually translated as "reflection" ie critical thought. In fact, if you look at the story of the man himself, Abraham, his earliest ideological tilt is not muslim, Jew, or Christian but as a "Haneef". Some have translated that to mean agnostic, but more accurate might be to just say "seeker".

For example Abraham rejected his people's worship of idols but then transiently thought stars, the moon, or the sun was God (Quran 6:76-78). But he quickly deduced it wasn't.

But going back to the main point of tafakkur (critical thinking, reasoning, "seeking" to use that term), the Quran mentions it in Surah 2:219 in relation to alcohol and gambling. Its not just saying "don't drink or make bets" but saying don't do it, and think about why you shouldn't do it.

Tafakkur is also mentioned in 3:191, 6:50, 7:176, 13:3, and there's quite a few more. There are about 20 different places where the Quran urges its readers to think deeper about whatever topic is in that verse.

I don't think the Quran mentions "submission" 20 times.

So its not accurate to paint Islam as a "read and obey without questioning" ideology although historically the authorities probably preached it that way and modern day extremist groups give that impression. Its like walking into the Knicks locker room and thinking all New Yorkers are 7 feet tall. The Knicks get more press coverage than the average New Yorker, but they aren't examples of what all New Yorkers are like.

Roey Haque
August 24, 2018, 12:03 AM
^Interesting. Most muslims I come across, especially in Bd, they are more into the surrendering, or submitting. Don't hear them talk much about seeking. They treat seeking like it's some sort of portal to evil. Much like how some fundamental Christians claim yoga is "demonic". For eg., folks back home will say things like, "do you obey God?", "do you believe in him?". And the christians will say "do you know you are original sinner?" Everything's about how I can serve him, how I did something wrong. Nothing about me making my own mind up.

Yankees
August 24, 2018, 12:58 AM
Since we are talking about hinduism.. I want to understand why some preachers of Monotheism scoff at some of these hindu practices and ideas but accepts similar ideas in Abrahamic religious teachings?

Did you know the person Catholics across Latin America pray to most isn't Jesus, but Mother Mary? Is Christianity a monotheistic religion? There is only 1 God, now let us pray to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

Yankees
August 24, 2018, 01:22 AM
There's alot of things wrong with what you wrote. I'm just going to focus on the below just to save us both some time. But don't mistake my exclusion as approval. You wrote something in the other thread that I enjoyed reading (even thought I disagreed largely) because it was almost an academic approach. But the above is nothing more than your opinion that youre passing off as facts.


(2) Despite showing convincing argument for the existence of God, they reject God because they cannot solve the problem of evil. If logical argument points to God's existence, not understanding the problem of evil is not a good ground to reject God.
There has never been or ever will be convincing argument for the existence of God. Believe me, if there were, the world would have no atheists, nor would it be the single largest growing "belief" system in the world.


(3) Being science worshipper they want empirical proof for everything including God’s existence. But they miss a few points (a) God is outside the realm of time space, thus empirical proof is not possible (b) empiricism/science is not the only source of knowledge (c) just because science works does not mean it is true. Science is based on observation. If you observe 1 million white sheep does not mean the 1million+1th sheep will be white.

Atheism does not mean science worshipper. Atheism is just the rejection of the concept of God and religion. It is merely rejecting that there is something there which we can't see. As the saying goes "Nijer choke dekhe bishash korlam."


(3) The perfect theology of Islam. No religion has the more perfect concept of God than that of Islam. This prefect theology is not only demonstrated in concept in Quran but also demonstrated in each and every ritual and prophetic tradition. This consistency is not possible if the Prophet was an imposter.

Really now? According to who, you? A follower of Islam? Yea, no bias there.

tonmoy.dhaka
August 24, 2018, 01:59 AM
@BengaliPagol: Your participation (like everyone else) in this thread is entirely voluntary, if you wish not to answer that is entirely your prerogative. Also I do not assume anything, I will always accept a good logical answer.

@Al-Furqaan: Thanks for the explanation. Although I am not sure I understood what you are trying to convey. Just one comment, we atheist/agnostics can be easily molded with logic. Our belief is not absolute. If there is a better explanation for the expansion of space or the source of certain background radiation or the age of the universe (13.8 billion years) that contradicts Big Bang than we would happily accept that. Also Space-time is a single entity, neither space nor time existed before t=0.

@Yankee: Lol.... never thought about that.. absolute gem...

tonmoy.dhaka
August 24, 2018, 02:14 AM
Quick Question:

How is soul as defined in hinduism ? How is it different from the definition in Islam/Christianity/Judaism?

al Furqaan
August 24, 2018, 02:57 AM
Also Space-time is a single entity, neither space nor time existed before t=0.


a) This is the same as the religious argument of "God is the creator of the Universe, nothing existed before God". The difference is that data suggests (but can't prove) that the Big Bang happened. On the other hand there is no data to suggest that God exists. But the t = 0 argument by both atheists/agnostics is the same as the devout.

b) We don't know anything about what happened at t = 0 because the laws of physics don't exist at that time. Therefore we don't know what happens at t = 0, much less "before" that time.

c) Personally I find the concept of space-time not existing at t = 0 to be inherently non-sensical and self-contradictory. If space is = 0, matter could not exist, because matter takes up space. So that means the Big Bang created matter (violation of the 1st law of thermodynamics...although the laws of physics don't apply at t = 0). Ie the Big Bang = God. And since there is evidence of the Big Bang, there would then be evidence of God. Evidence, but not proof, of course.

d) Some have theorized that the Universe eternally expands and contracts ad infinitum (provided enough dark matter exists)...Big Bang, Big Crunch, another Big Bang, another Big Crunch...etc etc etc. But now its kind of a issue of semantics, we can just call all of the various incarnations of the universe as one super big eternal Universe. Regardless, you just rest with this idea of something just eternally existing.

So as Mufti Abu Layth says, the concept of God is not inherently irrational because we already know of one thing that is apparently eternal and not uncreated: the Universe itself. Its just a matter of blind faith, with no data to back it.

ToBeFair
August 24, 2018, 04:51 AM
So as Mufti Abu Layth says, the concept of God is not inherently irrational because we already know of one thing that is apparently eternal and not uncreated: the Universe itself. Its just a matter of blind faith, with no data to back it.

This is wrong, because quantitative infinity cannot exist in space time dimension. If you say the universe is eternal, it means our history is infinite, and it creates the problem of infinite regression. If you accept infinite regression and and infinite past, this amounts to denying your current existence. For you to exist now, the history/past must be finite, and if the past is finite, this means there must be an absolute beginning of this universe.

SportingBD
August 24, 2018, 05:12 AM
We humans have a finite life. We are born and then must die.
God created the world with a finite life, it is not infinite.

But when we die, we have a infinite life? Since our belief is that the next world we don’t die?

My understanding is everything in this world is finite? And everything unseen is infinite?

Puck
August 24, 2018, 06:22 AM
I am not going to add to the arguments for and againt god above or for that matter express my views on what the original poster had asked. The thread title reminded me of our Hindu neighbours when I was a child and also the puja festivities we used to be invited to as a family by other Hindu friends. We attended a few over the years as a family when I was young, always fascinated by the colours and the food. The food, especially the sweets, they were divine. When I was tiny, as my mother worked as a lecturer in Jogonath College, some distance away from our flat, I would wander off nextdoor as and when it suited me, away from the very patient young maid servant who was charged with looking after me. The sweets again was one of the reasons for venturing over to their flat, but also, they were very fond of me. One final anecdote, I used to argue around the age of two and half that there should not be any reason why I ought not enter their prayer room while they engaged in arati because my musalmani operation was not until another few months away!

One World
August 24, 2018, 09:00 AM
c) Personally I find the concept of space-time not existing at t = 0 to be inherently non-sensical and self-contradictory. If space is = 0, matter could not exist, because matter takes up space. So that means the Big Bang created matter (violation of the 1st law of thermodynamics...although the laws of physics don't apply at t = 0). Ie the Big Bang = God. And since there is evidence of the Big Bang, there would then be evidence of God. Evidence, but not proof, of course.


This argument periphrastically supports string theory. Please expand your perspective beyond four dimensions and some of those obscure phenomenons will start to fall into the matrix.

tonmoy.dhaka
August 24, 2018, 10:47 AM
With regards to the existence of one God, in my humble opinion, there are many convincing and full proof arguments available - the cosmological argument,

I can actually scrutinize most of the points you made in your post. That would divert the original thread. Hence I will just provide a sneak peak (see below). If you want to discuss further please open a thread and I will gladly tell you how you are mistaken.


Cosmology:
1/
[54:1] The Hour has come near, and the moon has split [in two]

Absolutely false. Nothing to corroborate this claim.

2/ Lunar calender : Why would the creator use the inefficient form of calender. Imagine you are a farmer and relying on lunar calender for farming? It serves no purpose other than to determine some religious timelines (Ramadan etc).

3/ Ramadan- If you are unfortunate resident in the region that gets polar day/night than you will either starve to death or would not require to fast during Ramadan. Ofcourse God should know that but not a merchant in 7th century arabia.

4/ There is nothing in Quran that contradicts the understanding of a man during the 7th century. I can even argue that some of the passage vaguely indicates a geo-centric universe (understanding at the time). However since it is open to interpretation like most things in a vague literature, hence I would not take that road.

5/ [7:54] Indeed, your Lord is Allah, who created the heavens and earth in six days and then established Himself above the Throne. He covers the night with the day, [another night] chasing it rapidly; and [He created] the sun, the moon, and the stars, subjected by His command. Unquestionably, His is the creation and the command; blessed is Allah, Lord of the worlds. .....

Now there are many things wrong with the above,
First and foremost
A/ What is 6 days? 6 days = 13.X billion years? Basically stolen from the genesis!!
B/ Throne above? what does that mean?
C/ Neither the sun chases the moon or vice versa!! They spin in their own orbit (Sun has an orbit too)
D/ "He created the sun moon and STARS" , however Stars are nothing but Sun's .. ofcourse a 7th century merchant wont know that.

ToBeFair
August 24, 2018, 11:10 AM
I can actually scrutinize most of the points you made in your post. That would divert the original thread. Hence I will just provide a sneak peak (see below). If you want to discuss further please open a thread and I will gladly tell you how you are mistaken.
....



When I say cosmological argument for God's existence, I refer to following:

The Kalam Cosmological Argument - William Lane Craig (https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/popular-writings/existence-nature-of-god/the-kalam-cosmological-argument/)

The Quran's Argument for God's Existence - Hamza Tzortzis (http://www.hamzatzortzis.com/the-qurans-argument-for-gods-existence/)

Roey Haque
August 24, 2018, 01:47 PM
I am not going to add to the arguments for and againt god above or for that matter express my views on what the original poster had asked. The thread title reminded me of our Hindu neighbours when I was a child and also the puja festivities we used to be invited to as a family by other Hindu friends. We attended a few over the years as a family when I was young, always fascinated by the colours and the food. The food, especially the sweets, they were divine. When I was tiny, as my mother worked as a lecturer in Jogonath College, some distance away from our flat, I would wander off nextdoor as and when it suited me, away from the very patient young maid servant who was charged with looking after me. The sweets again was one of the reasons for venturing over to their flat, but also, they were very fond of me. One final anecdote, I used to argue around the age of two and half that there should not be any reason why I ought not enter their prayer room while they engaged in arati because my musalmani operation was not until another few months away!

Lovely stories. Thanks for sharing. I admit it would be better had I titled the thread "Dharmic Faiths and Abrahamic faiths. Inter-discussion". But there is another pov, which is that Hinduism includes everything. According to the Vedanta school of thought, everything is one, Brahman. So you could theoretically sweep every discussion that is going on in this thread under Brahman. I see a lot of people limiting Hinduism, because of adhering to traditions and traditions only. Same with Islam. But then if you go to the text, then you will see it is so much more. Like Al Furquan gave some examples how he can actually use the Koranic text to mean seeking. But had I strictly went by tradition, what preachers preach in mosques, then you were in fact supposed to NEVER doubt.

So yeah, from all sides, try to look beyond the mere traditions and dig deep into the philosophy. And thank you again for keeping it respectful.

al Furqaan
August 24, 2018, 06:03 PM
This is wrong, because quantitative infinity cannot exist in space time dimension. If you say the universe is eternal, it means our history is infinite, and it creates the problem of infinite regression. If you accept infinite regression and and infinite past, this amounts to denying your current existence. For you to exist now, the history/past must be finite, and if the past is finite, this means there must be an absolute beginning of this universe.

I didn't get that. I'm don't see why my existence in the present indicates that the past must have started at some finite time.

This argument periphrastically supports string theory. Please expand your perspective beyond four dimensions and some of those obscure phenomenons will start to fall into the matrix.

I'll try and look into it although I think thats too complicated for me to fathom.

But can string theory offer a universe where matter has zero volume? For I think if it does, then the existence of a God is not very absurd at all.

ToBeFair
August 25, 2018, 04:27 AM
I didn't get that. I'm don't see why my existence in the present indicates that the past must have started at some finite time.

For al Furqan to come into existence, your parents had to exist.

Let

Event 1 = Al Furqan coming to existence
Event 2 = Events that caused Al-Furqan's birth

Event 1 caused by Event 2
Event 2 caused by Event 3
Event 3 caused by Event 4
.
.
.
.
Event ∞ -1 caused by Event ∞
Event ∞ caused by Event ∞ +1

But ∞ -1 = ∞ +1 = ∞

As you see, this is leading to absurdity.

Since there must be a cause for anything to come into existence, the past causes cannot be infinite. If that is infinite, then the present cannot exist.

Thus there must be an uncaused cause, and that is God. For God never came into existence, He always existed and He will.

This is the summary of Surah Ikhlaas:

Say, "He is Allah, [who is] One,
Allah, the Eternal Refuge.
He neither begets nor is born,
Nor is there to Him any equivalent."

The third verse says that God always existed, which means He is uncaused, and He caused everything.

dolcevita
August 25, 2018, 05:51 AM
As this discussion has turned around the existence or not of the God, there is brilliant book, which helps to understand why human created religions:
Sapiens, a brief history of mankind (Yuval Noah Harrari)

al Furqaan
August 25, 2018, 12:30 PM
.
.
Event ∞ -1 caused by Event ∞
Event ∞ caused by Event ∞ +1

But ∞ -1 = ∞ +1 = ∞

As you see, this is leading to absurdity.

I don't think ordinary rules of arithmetic work with infinity because thats not a discrete number. infinity/infinity does not equal 1, I don't think.

Secondly I don't get why you are adding and subtracting events to/from infinity.

aklemalp
August 25, 2018, 01:11 PM
I think we need to build a time machine

SportingBD
August 25, 2018, 01:52 PM
I don't think ordinary rules of arithmetic work with infinity because thats not a discrete number. infinity/infinity does not equal 1, I don't think.

Secondly I don't get why you are adding and subtracting events to/from infinity.

Isn't everything paired in this world? meaning to say adds up to 1?

Male-female = 1
Darkness-light = 1
Life-death.. = 1

finity-infinity = 1? if you think about it, humans are both finite and infinite?
We are finite in this world, but infinite in the next world.

Just a curious thought...

ToBeFair
August 25, 2018, 08:40 PM
I don't think ordinary rules of arithmetic work with infinity because thats not a discrete number. infinity/infinity does not equal 1, I don't think.

Secondly I don't get why you are adding and subtracting events to/from infinity.

Our past events are definitely discrete. Since infinity is not a discrete number, how is it possible to have an eternal (infinite) past which is an ensemble consisting of discrete events?

Zeeshan
August 26, 2018, 05:48 AM
Y'all really need to take some DMT.

dhur.... khali kochor mochor bhalo lage na...

Zeeshan
August 26, 2018, 05:49 AM
I don't think ordinary rules of arithmetic work with infinity because thats not a discrete number. infinity/infinity does not equal 1, I don't think.

Secondly I don't get why you are adding and subtracting events to/from infinity.

Normal rules of math break down in ordinal arithmetic.

Zeeshan
August 26, 2018, 05:52 AM
Didn't read the whole thread. But I find submission=yielding in Taoism.

You yield to divine's law and will. Your ego dissolves. Submissions manei ei na ami boisha boisha pronam korlam aaraa matha thukrailamm.

Flow state is basically submission. Your ego dissolves. Thus you SUBMIT. Your let your body be an instrument for higher intelligence. Thus in a way an Olympic rowing team, Kobe peaking in a game, an archer, a comedian hitting all the notes, during sex, painting, poetry... they all submit. By letting go of control, they let the their Little Self become the Higher Self when they enter the zone. Which is actually yoga in the truest sense. So back to full circle and point of Hinduism I guess. Cuz yoga really is union. Means yoke and sh...

Acchaa.. Yogananda taar naam yogaananda rakhse kan? Bhodrolok ki boisha boisha yoga kore aar ananda pay?

Roey Haque
August 27, 2018, 10:57 PM
Y'all really need to take some DMT.

dhur.... khali kochor mochor bhalo lage na...

This thread is a gateway to DMT:shh:

Yankees
August 28, 2018, 02:08 AM
I think at this point Roey has learned enough about Hindusim, Islam, and Christianity to become Life of Pi. It's only a matter of time before he goes on a 300+ days journey with a bengal tiger. Ofcourse, the scary part will be once he flings open the tarp and realizes the bengal tiger is actually Mushfiqur Rahim.

BengaliPagol
August 28, 2018, 04:27 AM
what kind of sick game are the mods playing by randomly deleting posts and not having any sort of explanation for anything? It is just like what the mafia do.

Zeeshan
August 28, 2018, 04:33 AM
Granted albeit Alan Watts packages Hinduism in a neat little box but he cuts straight to the core of the issue and gets to the point. (And he knows it!) He is not a mug as Shamim would say.

The point of Hinduism is NOT murti-puja and stuff which many, many uncles denigratingly scoff and sneer. The ENTIRE point is you are the Godhead. You are It. You are playing this game of 'poor little me' when YOU in full control and command ARE the boss. YOU are Atman, the Brahman, the 33, 33000, 30000000 gods and everyone in disguise. I also love the CORE message of Advaita when you strip away the cosmetics.

These are nothing but a cosmic drama and illusion.

Em, get started with this first.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/MpbTODCAx9A" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Zeeshan
August 28, 2018, 04:34 AM
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/qzt6TvIWYbo" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Zeeshan
August 28, 2018, 04:35 AM
Also start with Bhagavat Gita. My first impression reading it in class was "Absolute Ego!!" I mean THIS is how I would carry myself if I was God.

Here (http://www.vedabase.com/en/bg/18/17)is an example of nondual logic of Hindu/Advaitesque philosophy:

One who is not motivated by false ego, whose intelligence is not entangled, though he kills men in this world, does not kill. Nor is he bound by his actions.

http://www.vedabase.com/bg/

Note there is not a SINGLE self-righteous tone of judgment or anything. Neither is there a prescription for 'right way' of living. Why should he? That's an insult to God's intelligence. Do you really thing God is such an insecure little child he got nothing better to do than self-righteosly enact edits, start this whole sh AND then blame humans for all of it when none of us even asked for it? That's That's like Trump mode of starting a fire in city or kidnapping a child and playing hero by saving the city. We are all One Being pretending we are not. Even Bd shardul. lol

Some ways Hinduism makes Abrahamic religion kindergarten. Also there is the mindset of Nagarjuna (not the Akram Khan lookalike Tollywood nayok lol) tetra lemma reminiscent of modern day Lukawiesciez (sic!) or fuzzy logic. Indian logic were miles and miles ahead of Western logic.

Zeeshan
August 28, 2018, 04:49 AM
At the end of the day Hinduis, Buddhism, Zen, Taoism and all religions are basically traps. There is this metaphor once you cross the river you don't carry the boat with you. These are nothing but tools and training methods to liberate you so that one day you wouldn't need to be shackled by them.

Jivanmukta. In fact a man should also be 'of this world and not from this world' mindset. Yup. We are all God in disguise. But that doesn't mean we can do whatever we want. Actually we can ABSOLUTELY do whatever we want... it's just that there will be consequences. Ultimately God will not 'punish' you eternally in hell fire. That is sooo puerile and immature. I mean why should he? He/I/We started this sh... Hell we signed up for this sh

Zeeshan
August 28, 2018, 07:53 AM
^Interesting. Most muslims I come across, especially in Bd, they are more into the surrendering, or submitting. Don't hear them talk much about seeking. They treat seeking like it's some sort of portal to evil. Much like how some fundamental Christians claim yoga is "demonic". For eg., folks back home will say things like, "do you obey God?", "do you believe in him?". And the christians will say "do you know you are original sinner?" Everything's about how I can serve him, how I did something wrong. Nothing about me making my own mind up.

Well I don't blame them after playing your 'records'.

Roey Haque
August 31, 2018, 04:47 PM
^ haha.

Swami Sarvapriyananda's videos are quite good on YouTube. He is the resident swami of the Vedanta Society of New York.

Alan Watts's videos on Hinduism are quite good too, like the ones Zee posted.

Sahdguru's videos are good for learning the yogic sciences as well.

But ultimately, what is most appealing is, that you must have some contribution as well. You must reach your truth.

al Furqaan
August 31, 2018, 10:19 PM
^Interesting. Most muslims I come across, especially in Bd, they are more into the surrendering, or submitting. Don't hear them talk much about seeking. They treat seeking like it's some sort of portal to evil. Much like how some fundamental Christians claim yoga is "demonic". For eg., folks back home will say things like, "do you obey God?", "do you believe in him?". And the christians will say "do you know you are original sinner?" Everything's about how I can serve him, how I did something wrong. Nothing about me making my own mind up.

Well in some philosphical way, thinking is the root of all evil. But its also the root of all thats good. Before the Holocaust happened, someone had to "think" of it, right?

With enough thought, you can justify pretty much anything. And I think thats the point of human existence. I think people should only be judged according to their thought process. Two people can reach totally opposite conclusions from the same original source material. Whoever has a more "godly" conclusion should probably be rewarded in some way.

al Furqaan
September 1, 2018, 12:30 AM
Cosmology:
1/
[54:1] The Hour has come near, and the moon has split [in two]

Absolutely false. Nothing to corroborate this claim.

The term used for "the Hour" is as-sa'ati (السَّاعَةُ )- which in all other Quranic passages is a reference to the Day Judgement. Its also evident from the capital H, in that its a special hour, but of course thats a translation and not as strong evidence as the actual Arabic. So, this is a prophecy of a future event, rather than a miracle (as many Muslims mistakenly allege) attributed to the Prophet.

This same "Hour" is mentioned in numerous Quran verses without any reference to the Moon splitting or anything eg 6:31, 7:187, 22:1, etc.

2/ Lunar calender : Why would the creator use the inefficient form of calender. Imagine you are a farmer and relying on lunar calender for farming? It serves no purpose other than to determine some religious timelines (Ramadan etc).

Our present day calendar is not perfectly efficient either. We have to add a leap year every 4th year. A day isn't exactly 24 hours, and a year isn't exactly 365 days. This doesn't mean that our calendar is meaningless or we can't keep accurate historical records. People farmed for thousands of years with a lunar calendar and even more primitive calendars. Its a complete non issue.

3/ Ramadan- If you are unfortunate resident in the region that gets polar day/night than you will either starve to death or would not require to fast during Ramadan. Ofcourse God should know that but not a merchant in 7th century arabia.


There are very few people who live in such areas and there is actually little need to live there. Hardly any economic activity in either pole. At the same time, there have probably not been any Muslims living in such extreme lattitudes and the Eskimos don't believe in Ramadan to begin with. Such points are as foolish as using Quranic verses to argue it predicted the Big Bang 1400 years ago.


4/ There is nothing in Quran that contradicts the understanding of a man during the 7th century. I can even argue that some of the passage vaguely indicates a geo-centric universe (understanding at the time). However since it is open to interpretation like most things in a vague literature, hence I would not take that road.

I agree. I used to believe in the so called scientific miracles of the Quran.

If you look hard enough, you can probably find it. If you look hard enough you can find evidence of the 2Pac vs Biggie beef in the Quran. So its best to probably not use it for that purpose.


A/ What is 6 days? 6 days = 13.X billion years? Basically stolen from the genesis!!

The Quran is basically a reprint of elements of Genesis, with some modifications and reinterpretations.

B/ Throne above? what does that mean?

A great debate within Islam is are such verses to be taken literally or to be taken metaphorically? I'm not sure it matters much, personally. Its a point for philosophers to debate if you ask me.

C/ Neither the sun chases the moon or vice versa!! They spin in their own orbit (Sun has an orbit too)

Again I don't like to try and find science in the Quran. I don't think it should be used for that purpose.

[/quote]D/ "He created the sun moon and STARS" , however Stars are nothing but Sun's .. ofcourse a 7th century merchant wont know that.[/QUOTE]

Similar to the Ramadan at the North Pole issue, i think this is a lot of noise for nothing. Its just an issue of semantics, imo. Stars and suns are equivalent, but we still have different words for them. Its kind of like saying "my thumb and my fingers" when the thumb is a finger too and so you could just say "my fingers" or "all of my fingers". Much ado about nothing I feel.

tonmoy.dhaka
September 1, 2018, 08:27 PM
The term used for "the Hour" is as-sa'ati (السَّاعَةُ )- which in all other Quranic passages is a reference to the Day Judgement. Its also evident from the capital H, in that its a special hour, but of course thats a translation and not as strong evidence as the actual Arabic. So, this is a prophecy of a future event, rather than a miracle (as many Muslims mistakenly allege) attributed to the Prophet.

This same "Hour" is mentioned in numerous Quran verses without any reference to the Moon splitting or anything eg 6:31, 7:187, 22:1, etc.


Our present day calendar is not perfectly efficient either. We have to add a leap year every 4th year. A day isn't exactly 24 hours, and a year isn't exactly 365 days. This doesn't mean that our calendar is meaningless or we can't keep accurate historical records. People farmed for thousands of years with a lunar calendar and even more primitive calendars. Its a complete non issue.



There are very few people who live in such areas and there is actually little need to live there. Hardly any economic activity in either pole. At the same time, there have probably not been any Muslims living in such extreme lattitudes and the Eskimos don't believe in Ramadan to begin with. Such points are as foolish as using Quranic verses to argue it predicted the Big Bang 1400 years ago.



I agree. I used to believe in the so called scientific miracles of the Quran.

If you look hard enough, you can probably find it. If you look hard enough you can find evidence of the 2Pac vs Biggie beef in the Quran. So its best to probably not use it for that purpose.



The Quran is basically a reprint of elements of Genesis, with some modifications and reinterpretations.



A great debate within Islam is are such verses to be taken literally or to be taken metaphorically? I'm not sure it matters much, personally. Its a point for philosophers to debate if you ask me.



Again I don't like to try and find science in the Quran. I don't think it should be used for that purpose.



I promised not to get dragged into religion related conversation at BC since people here view me with hate and disdain instead of providing a counter narrative to the argument.

I will stick to my promise. I just want to state that it is super easy for me to pinpoint all the holes in your arguments (there are plenty). I promise to provide those in a personal message if you are willing to listen (not to mention, I am really interested in your narrative given you sound knowledgeable and you do not use profanity like plenty of posters here). Let me know...

al Furqaan
September 2, 2018, 03:42 PM
I will stick to my promise. I just want to state that it is super easy for me to pinpoint all the holes in your arguments (there are plenty). I promise to provide those in a personal message if you are willing to listen (not to mention, I am really interested in your narrative given you sound knowledgeable and you do not use profanity like plenty of posters here). Let me know...

Please feel free.

Zeeshan
September 4, 2018, 04:49 PM
"If you look hard enough, you can probably find it. If you look hard enough you can find evidence of the 2Pac vs Biggie beef in the Quran. " -Al Furqaan on illuminati messages in Koran.

*Cu-ckoo*

al Furqaan
September 12, 2018, 04:10 PM
"If you look hard enough, you can probably find it. If you look hard enough you can find evidence of the 2Pac vs Biggie beef in the Quran. " -Al Furqaan on illuminati messages in Koran.

*Cu-ckoo*

I think I may have actually said that. Can't remember if it was in BC tho. LOL.

Roey Haque
September 30, 2018, 12:52 AM
Good video.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/3tFuk829ZS8" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>