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samircreep
June 2, 2004, 02:08 AM
This is an interesting debate that will go down in the history of Bangladesh Test Cricket.

Right after the match i had an argument with my friend who was peeved that Shumon did not declare earlier.His argument was based on the following points:
1)Bangladesh had an actual chance to win the match.chasing around 260 with 50 overs to go, who knows, with a couple of early wickets anything could happen, especially with the WI having such a long tail.
2)Bashar should've made a point by declaring early and putting team interests over individual interests.pilot's century came second to the team's chance of winning.
3)the symbolic value of a declaration would've rattled WI and given BD a psychological advantage.

I disagreed with him on the grounds that:
1)letting pilot complete was actually consistent with the wellfare of the team and not the individual.Anywone who saw the match yesterday could see how fervent the dressing room had become for pilot's century. His century was a huge boost not only for Pilot himself but had large spill-over effects for the whole team.But also consider the man himself.Pilot, after completing his maiden hundred, will never be the same player again.Like rafique, his confidence woul've increased ten folds and he will actually start considering himself a specialist batsmen, not only by reputation but this time actually based on merit.If this doesn't augur well for our cricket as a whole, I wonder what does.

2)there really was no chance of WI losing the test.Call me a negative captain, but skippering a side like BD, the captain needs to first make sure that we're not at risk losing a match before even thinking about declaring.We are not in a position like Australia who have the talent and the mental grit to set opponents challenging targets and then mop them up with their firepower.Unfortunately that's not gonna happent to BD for quite some time.

3.Not letting Piulot could've seriously harmed him as a player. Consider Atherton's decision to declare when Hick was on 99 in 19987 against NZ.That was at a time when hick has just rediscovered his groove and was cementing his place in the team.After that near declaration, Hick was really demoralized and was never the same player again.Consequently he dropped out of international cricket 2 years later.Im not saying the same would've have happened to Pilot, but why risk it?

So what do u guys think?

oracle
June 2, 2004, 02:14 AM
Not letting Piulot could've seriously harmed him as a player. Consider Atherton's decision to declare when Hick was on 99 in 19987 against NZ


Yes, the points are laid out very well, Samircreep. I think Bashar did the right thing, also on this occassion it was beneficial for the team that he was pulled back by team mates. Furthermore, I like the relevant comparison with Hick.

Now, we have what 4 centurions (incl. ash) in one team. Psychologically, it really matters. And for all the talk that Dave woud do otherwise, I donīt believe it.

[Edited on 2-6-2004 by oracle]

rafiq
June 2, 2004, 02:17 AM
I always considered Pilot a specialist batsmen and don't know why he has to play so far down the order behind the likes of mushfiq and sujon. Good example re: Graeme Hick.

This board was abuzz with calls for a declaration. I think 260 in 50 overs would have been a cakewalk for WI, and we saw what they did in the few overs they played at the end. And when we did have enough runs to defend, Pilot was still not finished with his ton but yet too close to not allow him to complete it - perhaps he could have hurried the scoring between overs 50 down to 40.

I'm just glad we have stopped losing.

Saurav
June 2, 2004, 02:17 AM
I agree with you Samircreep. Good points!

rafiq
June 2, 2004, 02:19 AM
Originally posted by oracle


Now, we have what 4 centurions (incl. ash) in one team. Psychologically, it really matters. And for all the talk that Dave woud do otherwise, I donīt believe it.

[Edited on 2-6-2004 by oracle]

4? Don't forget Javed Omar - we have 5.

sashimi
June 2, 2004, 02:24 AM
BD think tank is too late to declare the 2nd innings. There
was no chance of result when they declare. WI should have batted min 40 overs.:-/

billah
June 2, 2004, 02:26 AM
Pilot's century or not, it was a very prudent decision to declare as late as we did, specially, considering the slogfest at the end by WI. I don't think this declaration should even be talked about as a controversy. This was, all in all, a sound, well-timed decision. Only one of the several benefits we received from it was the century.

billah
June 2, 2004, 02:27 AM
Sashimi....yummm...

sashimi
June 2, 2004, 03:02 AM
Still, draw is a good result for us. But, we should take the chance of winning the match. Though BD had been a better side in this test match, they were not aggressive enough to win the match. Its just a matter of how good you
are to measure yourself.

oracle
June 2, 2004, 03:06 AM
I have merged Sashimi's earlier thread which is similar to this thread. Thanks.

Oracle
Moderator

sashimi
June 2, 2004, 03:12 AM
Thanks oracle.

pagol-chagol
June 2, 2004, 06:13 AM
Originally posted by billah
Pilot's century or not, it was a very prudent decision to declare as late as we did, specially, considering the slogfest at the end by WI. I don't think this declaration should even be talked about as a controversy. This was, all in all, a sound, well-timed decision. Only one of the several benefits we received from it was the century.

Right on.

Nice analysis Sameercreep.

It was a perfect decision. In many ways. Long term and short term too.

Navarene
June 2, 2004, 07:39 AM
Originally posted by sashimi
Still, draw is a good result for us. But, we should take the chance of winning the match. Though BD had been a better side in this test match, they were not aggressive enough to win the match.
To take the chance of winning the match when there would be a 70% possibility of losing the test by an early declaration? No way! To declare with some odd 250/260 runs lead would definitely be suicidal. We have lost enough. Its time now to transcend "not to lose anymore" as a habit. Bashar declared at the right time to ensure to come out of this pivotal losing string.

crickipagol
June 2, 2004, 08:05 AM
Following things to ponder:

Stat: Bangladesh 200 in 76.4 overs (Khaled Mashud 60*, Tapash Baisya 3*), a lead of 264 with 50 or so overs left (RRR. 5.28).

At this point declaration, wouldn't have brought Hick issue. Mashud would have felt pretty good having his test fifty. Century issue came in when Tapash got out, and by then mashud was only 16 away from the century.

Who would dare to declare then? If declared, there could have been another squabble in the dressing room, and we would have left with Hannan Sarkar keeping with his Jell-o hands (fly Mashud home, it looks bad sending skip home overnight, for disciplinary reason).

Now about WI second innings, don't get fooled by Gayle's batting. Runs required and overs left so disproportionate, match result was obvious. There was absolutely no risk to the team, for playing like that.

But if declared at the above mentioned stage, vise would have been much tighter on WI head. Thoughts like "we may lose" lurked in their mind. The whole situation would have turned into a mental game.

Now the question remains, were we mentally strong enough to handle that kind of situation? In the last two/three series, we have gathered some experience in that arena (even though result came as unfavorable), but who knows, this time around we would have stood tall, probably.

These are all could have - would have. No value.

Personally, I am very happy with the result, for the team, and for Mashud. He is providing brilliant service to our team. He deserves to have some proud moments, this century is definitely one. And the team became mentally strong, for the next test.

Draw is much better than losing. we all are tired of losing, aren't we? So enjoy the moment, who knows what happens next.

I love this game! Now even more!

paco
June 2, 2004, 09:45 AM
There has been a lot of talk from our WIndian friends about how spineless our captain was not too declare.

I say that it was WI that was spineless not to go after 320 in 30 overs :lol:

All jokes aside, it was the right decision. In test cricket, there's wins, losses and draws - and everyone would rather see a draw than going for a win and losing it. Pakistan beat us by 1 wicket thanks to Inzy's heroics, but everyone still refers to it as one of our 26 losses.

p.s. - Wisden write up reports that Habibul was actually about to declare at tea, but was held back by team mates.

BangladeshFan
June 2, 2004, 10:08 AM
Originally posted by paco
There has been a lot of talk from our WIndian friends about how spineless our captain was not too declare.

I say that it was WI that was spineless not to go after 320 in 30 overs :lol:

All jokes aside, it was the right decision. In test cricket, there's wins, losses and draws - and everyone would rather see a draw than going for a win and losing it. Pakistan beat us by 1 wicket thanks to Inzy's heroics, but everyone still refers to it as one of our 26 losses.

p.s. - Wisden write up reports that Habibul was actually about to declare at tea, but was held back by team mates.
is it true that he was held up by the team mates to his seats? so that he cant stand up and declare:lol:

pagol-chagol
June 2, 2004, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by BangladeshFan
Originally posted by paco
There has been a lot of talk from our WIndian friends about how spineless our captain was not too declare.

I say that it was WI that was spineless not to go after 320 in 30 overs :lol:

All jokes aside, it was the right decision. In test cricket, there's wins, losses and draws - and everyone would rather see a draw than going for a win and losing it. Pakistan beat us by 1 wicket thanks to Inzy's heroics, but everyone still refers to it as one of our 26 losses.

p.s. - Wisden write up reports that Habibul was actually about to declare at tea, but was held back by team mates.
is it true that he was held up by the team mates to his seats? so that he cant stand up and declare:lol:

I thoght that too.


[Edited on 2-6-2004 by pagol-chagol]

[Edited on 2-6-2004 by pagol-chagol]

Piranha
June 2, 2004, 10:19 AM
Pesonally, I felt we could have been a teeny bit more agrresive. My key argument in favor of declaring is that we <strong>should have raised the run rate when after our lead of 250.</strong> Suppose we had given them 300 in 45 overs. The match would have definitely been very tense and there was a decent chance of winning as well.

However, given that our lead was not sufficiently big at around the 45 over mark (i.e. 45 ovs lfts in day), Bashar made the absolute right decision. Just like most other members of this board, I'd take a draw over defeat any day.

BangladeshFan
June 2, 2004, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by Piranha
Pesonally, I felt we could have been a teeny bit more agrresive. My key argument in favor of declaring is that we <strong>should have raised the run rate when after our lead of 250.</strong> Suppose we had given them 300 in 45 overs. The match would have definitely been very tense and there was a decent chance of winning as well.

However, given that our lead was not sufficiently big at around the 45 over mark (i.e. 45 ovs lfts in day), Bashar made the absolute right decision. Just like most other members of this board, I'd take a draw over defeat any day.

hypothetical !! when a team is 8 down it takes only two balls to get them all out. question of increasing the runrate is a bit too much i guess. bangladesh did far more than what is expected , so all praise to them!

AsifTheManRahman
June 2, 2004, 10:51 AM
According to cricinfo, Sumon was about to declare once, but pulled back to his seat by his teammates, who wanted Pilot to get his ton. This is insane!

Ahmed_B
June 2, 2004, 10:56 AM
Dilemma-1
All these arguments about BD declaring early or late comes from one specific idea and its that this is already time for BD to actually WIN a test! For me, I am completely satisfied with the result because I don’t really believe that BD has to win every test they play(not even for any team in the world that is true)! And I am still ready to wait for our first victory and accept a few more DRAW’s before that. In test cricket DRAW is also considered a result and not the worst one! The urge for win in every BD fan is understandable though!

Dilemma-2
Another thing it the actual possibility of BD victory in this test: When we had a 250/260 runs lead, about 50 overs play was still remaining –so WI would have a good try at it and its not absolutely certain that BD bowlers could cause collapse on their batting line-up, rather it was only a chance!! And again, when BD had secured a lead of 300, it was already late because too few overs remained. So it was better to give Pilot a chance to get his 100 –in a way, that is also a superb boost for the team : for the first time ever we got 3 test centuries in one match! And look!! WI has only one... and also with 3 dropped chances!!
And criticisms on this point from the WI fans are also reasonable –as, truly, WI had a fair enough chance to win this match if BD had declared earlier! Now wonder they will call us ‘Spineless’ out of utter anger! Because a DRAW with BD is not what they would have ever even thought of in their wildest dreams !!
:D
I must say that Bashar has done the most ‘Captainly’ thing by this decision of his!

Ahmed_B
June 2, 2004, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by AsifTheManRahman
According to cricinfo, Sumon was about to declare once, but pulled back to his seat by his teammates, who wanted Pilot to get his ton. This is insane!

if u had watched that in TV broadcast.. u would also know that it was just fun!
yes it happened..but they were doing that in jokey mood only..
neither bashar nor the team had any though of declaring!
even commentrators saw the funny side of the gallery scene.. as they mentioned.

crazyisland
June 2, 2004, 11:00 AM
I think Bashar made one of the best decisions by letting Mashud complete his century. That not only lift the team spirit but also make sure we don't take any chance to lose this test.

Beamer
June 2, 2004, 11:22 AM
First of all, that was a mocking gesture as the players were having fun and pulled him back. He never had any inclination to declare and he was absolutely right. Two things could have happened if he declared, draw or a loss. We don't have the bowlers needed, on a pitch like this to bowl out the Windies in one and a half session. Had he declared and went for the win that was not there and we lost, can you imagine what it would have done to us psychologically? Yes..it was a no-brainer. Test cricket is littered with draws from the time of inception. The advance of one dayers and recent trend of result oriented aggressive test matches, as steve waugh said very eloquently the other day, may make one forget that test cricket has produced many many enthralling draws. I know that we are desperately seeking a victory but yesterday wasn't the right occassion to go for one. It was never there.

BushidoTiger
June 2, 2004, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by BangladeshFan
Originally posted by Piranha
Pesonally, I felt we could have been a teeny bit more agrresive. My key argument in favor of declaring is that we <strong>should have raised the run rate when after our lead of 250.</strong> Suppose we had given them 300 in 45 overs. The match would have definitely been very tense and there was a decent chance of winning as well.

However, given that our lead was not sufficiently big at around the 45 over mark (i.e. 45 ovs lfts in day), Bashar made the absolute right decision. Just like most other members of this board, I'd take a draw over defeat any day.

hypothetical !! when a team is 8 down it takes only two balls to get them all out. question of increasing the runrate is a bit too much i guess. bangladesh did far more than what is expected , so all praise to them!


Couldn't agree any more. We're TWO balls away from ending our innings. Playing aggressive would have been suicidal.

Our tail had to carry the burden of stupidity of the so called middle orders (an openers). Seems to me that everybody forgot the overnite totall going into 5th day.
Not only Mashud and company saved the match, it was an honorable draw unlike the other two.

I did however hope that Mashud didn't take that long to get to his ton once he realized that match was gonna be a draw..he was still playing 1-run overs.

More than Mashud and Bashar (and to some degree Rafique) who are known to be dependable batters, my hat goes off to Tapash and Tarek.

These two did remarkable jobs in BOTH innings to hang tight and let the other end do the damage.

Had it not for there resolute, we wouldn't have seen Rafique/KM centuries and even discuss if BD should/shouln't have declared etc.

These guys came in and never looked uncomfortable/out-of-place like typical tail ender bowlers look and kept the rudder steady while the Pilot/Rafique steered us home.

I think in the hoopla of BD first time declaring in a match, timing of declaration, 3 centurions in one test etc...we forgot to internalize what BD as a team has accomplished.

I totally agree with the commentators that BD doesn't have a tail.

Just imagine if BD went to 5th day w/ only loosing four wicket, we'd have a slogfest and could have declared before lunch with tons on the board

would've , could've, should've...

paco
June 2, 2004, 11:40 AM
The advance of one dayers and recent trend of result oriented aggressive test matches, as steve waugh said very eloquently the other day, may make one forget that test cricket has produced many many enthralling draws.


Indeed - in my opinion, this was as enthralling as they come - from being in a perilous position of 94-6, we were able to bat out almost the entire day (who knows, even Tarek might've gotten a century if we kept batting on).

Absolutely nothing wrong with this draw.

mafizraju
June 2, 2004, 09:43 PM
We have to remember one thing that is no team including west indies will ever give up when they have a chance to win. So declaring at a stage when west indies needed 260 to win from 50 overs might have been given us a very exciting game. But the problem is we still dont have either the mental power or firepower to take all the west indian wickets in 50 overs when west indies already have got the smell of victory. So I would say have couple of more draws, let these guys to adjust with the mental pressure of the final day of test and then I guess we will be able to play little more agressevly.