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rockpundit
July 18, 2004, 12:45 PM
I cant believe this... Razzak reported!
It seems that whatevers happening to bd cricket is happening for the worse... damn!

TigerFan
July 18, 2004, 12:53 PM
Bangladesh spinner reported


Razzaq made his international debut in the 2004 Asia Cup
Bangladesh spinner Abdur Razzaq has been reported by the International Cricket Council for having a suspected illegal bowling action.

The left-armer, 22, was reported by umpires after the Asia Cup game between Bangladesh and Pakistan on Saturday.

Razzaq has been referred to stage one of the ICC process, which means he can continue to play international cricket while working with specialist advisors.

His action has been questioned before by local umpires in Bangladesh.

ICC Match Referee Roshan Mahanama said: "The umpires were of the opinion that the player's action needed to be looked at.

"It is in the best interests of the player that this is done at this early stage of his career."


(BBC)

rassel
July 18, 2004, 01:00 PM
i know it was coming!
Fu*** Suspecter! I hope they go to hell!!!!!
:mad::mad::mad::mad:

I see too many chuckers in this tournament! I am not going to mention their name, but their are bunch of them! I dont why the hell they pick on our boys!

the_wall
July 18, 2004, 01:07 PM
It is really unfortunate but if I have not misheard then he was also reported during a domestic match and then cleared.if the board has followed the rules of legal action while clearing him then i believe it is just a matter of confirmation of his action being legal. thus it may not prove to be a major issue.

mahbubH
July 18, 2004, 01:16 PM
The only positive happened to BD from ACC trophy is gone!! It is really frustrating!

I read BD newspapers about Raj's bowling action and thought with Whatmore's advice Raj adjusted his action!! We need performance like Raj's...

Rho
July 18, 2004, 01:18 PM
I asked in chatroom and Nasif swore to me he doesn't chuck. I pointed out how Cricinfo profile says his action has kink but he told there's no way he chucks. Problem is, when it's your own you always overlook kinks. The same thing is happening at a larger scale with the Bangladesh team. They're just not good enough to play international matches against these other teams. But no ya'll think 2 or 3 tier system is a conspiracy against Bangladesh. Screw that. Bangladesh should either lose its international status in both forms of cricket or they have to play in the 2nd tier of the two tier system. I mean let them beat Kenya first for a change, I am pretty confident Kenya is a much better team than Bangladesh even now.

Mahmood
July 18, 2004, 01:34 PM
I was fearing this will happen. Be was always said be to chucking by the BD news media. So no surprise there.

nasifkhan
July 18, 2004, 01:43 PM
I was also expecting this....

this may hamper Razzaq confidence ...

Let see what happens next.

mahbubH
July 18, 2004, 04:10 PM
Is there any info on whether Raj continue playing this tournament?

al Furqaan
July 18, 2004, 04:18 PM
the rest of asia cup...hes just gonna be subject to a lot of BS scrutiny

rockpundit
July 18, 2004, 05:06 PM
Hey rho, I dont think anyone here gives a rats [] to what you think about our team. We , as bangladeshis have a responsibility to support our team all the way to the end.. Did you ever see the way the Pakis or indians support their team no matter win or lose... Learn something...


[Edited on 19-7-2004 by nasif : Moderation]

Zobair
July 18, 2004, 05:51 PM
I thought the action looked fine in slow motion. If razzak is chucking than Shoaib is pelting!

rio
July 18, 2004, 06:18 PM
What about the Pakis (S. Malik & S. Akhtar)??? They chuck for sure.:mad:

Rho
July 18, 2004, 07:10 PM
haha rockpundit you're so hillarious.

anyways, Raj needs proper guidance and training to get over this thing. Rafique also was reported once but he came back and has a better record after his comeback! so Raj should be given the coaching he needs. Spinning is a nasty business and I won't be surprised if more of bd spinners are called at the international level for chucking. What surprises me and pisses me off at the same time is that despite reports that he was called several times in the local matches he continued to chuck and now has to face this same sort of thing at the international level. What were his coaches thinking that maybe international umpires won't notice?

Zobair
July 18, 2004, 07:10 PM
If I were Whatmore I would continue bowling Razzak. If he is taken off immediately it will shatter his confidence, and make a comeback extra hard. Rafique did it but he lost out on a good number of matches. Besides I am confident he can "remedy" (if there is anything major to remedy) his action pretty quickly without losing his effectiveness. I was also under the impression that BCB had his action checked out using video tech. and cleared his action!!



[Edited on 19-7-2004 by pompous]

Rho
July 18, 2004, 07:16 PM
pompous makes me wonder about the qualifications of the BCB people in charge of clearing a bowler's action!!!

Nasif
July 18, 2004, 07:27 PM
I have said before, Razzak has an unusual action. Those who didn't see him bowling won't know what is going on unless you actually see him. I stand firm on my position that he isn't chucking. Umpires reported Razzak for further investigation into his action. They didn't report him as a chucker. It is a precautionary step as his delivery action is very unusual. The very last release point of his delivery is the thing that is unusual.

He will be cleared inshallah. I am not worried about it, neither should he.

[Edited on 19-7-2004 by nasif]

rafik
July 18, 2004, 09:20 PM
It is our badluck that Razzak has been reported

[Edited on 19-7-2004 by rafik]

Optimist
July 18, 2004, 09:30 PM
Originally posted by Rho
pompous makes me wonder about the qualifications of the BCB people in charge of clearing a bowler's action!!!
Rho, do you have any idea about the process of identifying and remediation of chucking? The umpires/referee report a bowler's action without thorough investigation --- their judgement is mainly based on visual inspection. So their reporting does not mean a bowler is definetely chucking; it only means that his action is supect. Now it is BCB's (with the help of ICC) responsibility to correct his action if necessary or show the ICC that he does not chuck. Let's see how BCB handles that. And in the mean time let's not criticize just for the sake of it.

[Edited on 19-7-2004 by Optimist]

sageX
July 18, 2004, 10:35 PM
Originally posted by Rho

pompous makes me wonder about the qualifications of the BCB people in charge of clearing a bowler's action!!!


I am personally offended by his humiliating remarks about bangladesh. This is official complain to mods.

[Edited on 19-7-2004 by sageX]

[Edited on 19-7-2004 by sageX]

al Furqaan
July 18, 2004, 10:40 PM
you should remove the []

<i>Avoid perosnal attacks
Moderator</i>

[Edited on 19-7-2004 by nasif : Moderation]

sageX
July 18, 2004, 11:07 PM
Dav said they looked at Razzak's action before WI tour. There is nothing wrong in it.

Shehwar
July 18, 2004, 11:37 PM
Well it was coming...And when I told u ppl that he will be reported even before the Pakistan match...Some of u even reckoned I was raising an unnecessary debate..I don't mean any offence to anyone here..Without mentioning anyone's name....I have seen a lot of cricket over the years and understand the game pretty well....So I usually don't talk rubbish...Anywayz lets look at the brighter side....He'll be able to play the rest of the tournament...I just hope it doesn't shatter his confidence...

chinaman
July 18, 2004, 11:54 PM
The ICC have confirmed that Bangladesh bowler Khan Abdur Razzak has been reported with a suspected illegal bowling action.

The report was made by the three match umpires and compiled by ICC Match Referee Roshan Mahanama after the Asia Cup game between Bangladesh and Pakistan in Sri Lanka on 17 July.

The on-field umpires were Brian Jerling and Gamini Silva and the TV Umpire was A Jayaprakash.

Mr Mahanama has since informed both the ICC and the player's team management of the decision, as per the ICC regulations governing the reporting process.

"The umpires were of the opinion that the player's action needed to be looked at and it is in the best interests of the player that this is done at this early stage of his career," said Mr Mahanama.

There is a clear two-stage process endorsed by all Test playing countries for bowlers reported in international cricket. Razzaq, a left arm orthodox spinner, has now been referred to Stage One of the process, which means that he can continue to play international cricket while working with specialist advisors, including a human movement specialist from the ICC panel, to review his bowling action.

A detailed review will be compiled by the BCB and submitted to the ICC within a six week period of the reporting. This will then be circulated to all ICC Match Referees and Elite Panel umpires for information and reference.

Stages One and Two of the ICC Reporting process are as follows:

Stage One

The home Board shall instruct their bowling advisors working with a human movement specialist appointed by the home Board from the ICC panel of specialists to review the report and work with the player to correct his action.

The home Board advisors, together with the human movement specialist, will complete an assessment of the bowler's action in accordance with the ICC's Standard Analysis Protocols, and submit a written assessment including relevant video footage to ICC within six weeks from the date of receipt by the home Board of the report. Any video footage taken by the home Board shall also be submitted with the assessment. The home Board shall provide its player with a copy of the assessment and any video evidence.

Throughout this period the player will be permitted to continue playing. At any time throughout this period the player is subject to being called on the field by the umpire in terms of Law 24 and the consequences of such Law must apply. However for the purposes of this procedure a second report may not be made until expiry of the six-week period.

A summary of the home Board's assessment will be circulated to the ICC panel of umpires and referees, within 14 days of its receipt by the ICC.

Stage Two

If the player is reported a second time the reporting procedure above will apply and in addition the Bowling Review Group will meet and hold a hearing to determine the legality of the player's bowling action.

The hearing will be held as soon as reasonably possible, but at least within 28 days of receipt of a second report .The ICC shall be responsible for determining the time and place for the hearing and shall ensure that the player, through the player's home board is given reasonable notice of the time and place of the hearing.

Throughout the period after the second report, and before the hearing, the player will be permitted to continue playing. At any time throughout this period the player is subject to being called on the field by the umpire in terms of Law 24 and the consequences of such Law must apply.

The player will attend the hearing. However, if the player has received notice of the hearing and fails to attend the hearing, the hearing may, at the absolute discretion of the chairman of the Bowling Review Group, proceed in the absence of the player.

The player shall be entitled to a representative who shall be entitled to attend the hearing. The Bowling Review Group will consider the following:

the video evidence obtained from reports one and two.

the relevant umpires' or referees written reports.

the home Board advisors' assessment together with any video evidence accompanying such assessment.

any further evidence that the player and/or his representative wishes to put forward in his own defence. This can include a written report, a verbal submission, any expert evidence and video evidence.

any written or video evidence that the player's home Board wishes to be considered on behalf of its player.

The player and/or his representative shall be entitled to question any member of the Bowling Review Group and/or any person called to give evidence in the course of the hearing on any issue relevant to the hearing. The members of the Bowling Review group shall be entitled to question the player and/or any person called to give evidence on the player's behalf.

After all the evidence and argument has been presented, the player and his representative will be asked to leave the hearing.

The Bowling Review Group will then reach a decision by taking a formal vote.

If the Bowling Review Group shall decide by simple majority vote that the player is guilty of breaching Law 24.2 he shall be banned from bowling in international cricket for a period of 12 months from the date of the finding, or until such time as the player has rectified his action to the satisfaction of the Bowling Review Group.

The ICC will communicate the decision of the Bowling Review Group in writing to the player's home Board immediately after the hearing.

Review of Bowling Action

The player will be permitted, under supervision of the home Board, to play in domestic cricket and the home Board shall be required to assist the player to rectify the problem with his bowling action.

At any time, but not less than 90 days after the finding or any subsequent finding under this clause, should the home Board be satisfied that the player has rectified the problem with his action, the home Board shall submit a written report together with any further video evidence that may be appropriate advising the ICC to this effect.

The Bowling Review Group, consisting as far as reasonably possible of the same members as the group which attended the original hearing, shall re-convene (either in person or, in the discretion of the chairman, by way of video and/or telephone conference) as soon as reasonably possible from the date of receipt of a report to reassess the action of the player.

The Bowling Review Group shall consider the report submitted and any accompanying video evidence and any other evidence the player and/or his representative wishes to put forward.

If the Bowling Review Group is satisfied that the player has rectified his action the player shall immediately be eligible to play international cricket. If not the ban shall remain in place.

The Bowling Review Group shall, at all times and in particular when reaching any decision as to legality of the player's bowling action, be obliged to have due regard to the levels of tolerance detailed in the ICC Standard Analysis Protocols.

CricketWorld >> (http://www.cricketworld.com/bangladesh/detail.asp?articleid=705&menu=0&sid=4&sn=Bangladesh)

Tintin
July 19, 2004, 12:05 AM
Was Razzaq wearing full sleeves or half ?

Did you notice that these days most of the bowlers with suspect action (including one of our own) have switched to wearing full sleeves as the easy way out ?

Nasif
July 19, 2004, 12:09 AM
Originally posted by Tintin
Was Razzaq wearing full sleeves or half ?

Did you notice that these days most of the bowlers with suspect action (including one of our own) have switched to wearing full sleeves as the easy way out ?

He was wearing full sleeve. I couldn't figure out why wear full sleeve in hot day! Now as you mention this, it makes clear sense!

sageX
July 19, 2004, 12:12 AM
Yeah why not go for ELITE chuckers. :lol:

chinaman
July 19, 2004, 12:19 AM
Originally posted by Tintin
Was Razzaq wearing full sleeves or half ?
He has been wearing long sleeves even in the domestic matches. The earlier we get the facts about him, the better.

http://banglacricket.com///home/pictures/newpic176.jpg

Nasif
July 19, 2004, 12:54 AM
Originally posted by Rho
I asked in chatroom and Nasif swore to me he doesn't chuck. I pointed out how Cricinfo profile says his action has kink but he told there's no way he chucks. Problem is, when it's your own you always overlook kinks. The same thing is happening at a larger scale with the Bangladesh team. They're just not good enough to play international matches against these other teams. But no ya'll think 2 or 3 tier system is a conspiracy against Bangladesh. Screw that. Bangladesh should either lose its international status in both forms of cricket or they have to play in the 2nd tier of the two tier system. I mean let them beat Kenya first for a change, I am pretty confident Kenya is a much better team than Bangladesh even now.

It is very funny how you join bowling action reporting with Bangladesh's inability to play cricket. The chain of thought is really something.

I am sure you know many many bowlers have been reported. Raj is not the first person to go through this process and neither will he be the last.

I stand strong in my opinion that he doesn't chuck. Reporting doesn't mean a bowler is chucking. If umpried called a NO BALL then you can come here and tell us that Raj was chucking. Umpire goes for reporting when they feel a bowler has a suspect action. As I have said numerous times, Raj's delivery is unusual. I believe that is the reason umpires reported his action. They want ICC and BCB to take closer look at it.

Your comments about BD being 2nd tier level is totally uncalled for and based on funny logic. I fail to see how you reach to this conclusion that BD deserves to go to 2nd tier just because Raj's action is suspect and BCB may have overlooked it.

Bangladesh is not playing in international level with anyone's patronage. They belong here and that is why they are playing here. ICC isn't run by morons that they have donated full membership to Bangladesh just like that. You can join Ganguly and sing the demotion song as much as you like, but Bangladesh deserves to play here and Bangladesh will continue to play here.

Keyna's senior citizen team is no match for Bangladesh. Whatever happened in WC2003 is past history and we have crossed ages after that. If you haven't seen Pak's 1 wicket test win against us, and WI draw, then you have missed lot of cricket within the last year. I would then understand your reason for singing the demotion song.

As I have said in <a href=http://banglacricket.com//cgi-bin/home/show_article.pl?artnum=a target=new>my recent article</a>:
<i>The anti-BD song will shut down sooner than later as Bangladesh brings out the inherent Tigers in them. That day is not far away when the commentators and wise columnists of some cricket information site will think twice before they raise a voice to insult Bangladeshi cricket. There can be only one king in the jungle of cricket, and its the Tiger!</i>

WI2debone
July 19, 2004, 02:06 AM
Bangladesh Spinner's Illegal Bowling Action Reported

The headline of this article is misleading .... it gives the impression that his action IS illegal, when in fact they (ICC) haven't checked it out as yet!!!!

James90
July 19, 2004, 04:59 AM
Nasif bhai...can you compile a package of Raj's action for us if that isn't too hard?

muddaser
July 19, 2004, 07:46 AM
he'll be fine, just a little tweaking and he'll be back in no time.

doubt the tweaking will affect his bowling.

pakistan are now remodelling tariq mahmoods action and it seems he will not be the same bowler again like he was in the u-19 world cup.

AsifTheManRahman
July 19, 2004, 09:26 AM
This was obviously coming. His action is definitely suspicious. However, he should be able to come out of it, like Rafique did a few years ago.

AsifTheManRahman
July 19, 2004, 09:27 AM
that is, if his action IS found to be illegal by the ICC.

chinaman
July 19, 2004, 02:51 PM
It was inevitable that Bangladeshi spinner Abdur Razzaq would be reported for suspect bowling action one day as he was a big suspect in the domestic cricket and had never gone through a rectifying process before stepping into the international circuit.

Roshan Mahanama, the ICC match referee, on Saturday reported Razzaq after Bangladesh's second league match against Pakistan in the Asia Cup in Colombo.

Razzaq was among the bowlers who were listed as 'chuckers' by a committee headed by renowned local umpire Nadir Shah during the last national cricket league. However, the Bangladesh Cricket Board did not take any initiative to rectify their defects.

The BCB's decision to play Razzaq in international cricket, without correcting his dubious bowling action, has had immediate consequences of being reported only in his second international match.

Razzaq is the fourth Bangladeshi spinner to be reported for suspect actions while playing international cricket. The previous three bowlers were Naimur Rahman, Md Rafique and Sanuar Hossain. Among them only Rafique has successfully freed himself of the defects while the rest were compelled to stay out of international cricket. Another promising left-arm spinner Nadif Chowdhury was also reported by an ICC experts' panel during the last Under-19 World Cup held in the country.

The BCB had hired former Indian spinner Erapalli Prasanna after Namiur and Rafique were reported but no such initiative was taken for Sanuar and Nadif and other local bowlers which has now drawn criticisms.

Although the BCB had appointed former leg-spinner Omar Khaled Rumi, off-spinner Azhar Hossain Shantu and pace bowler Ziaul Islam Masud to work with the bowlers, they did nothing, sources claimed. The irresponsible acts of the former bowlers have now jeopardised a promising career of Razzaq, commented an official.

Echoing the general sentiment of the local cricket fraternity, Jalal Younus, the former chairman of the bowling action review committee and now an adiviser to the BCB president, said, "The latest decision is embarrassing both for Razzaq and Bangladesh and it could have been avoided had the BCB-appointed experts worked with him before giving him the nod for the international cricket."

NewAge: The inevitable comes in a day >> (http://www.newagebd.com/2004/jul/20/spt.html)

Zobair
July 19, 2004, 05:26 PM
Indian Oil Asia Cup 2004
Rallying behind Razzak
Sports Reporter

Just as he was announcing his arrival in international cricket, Abdur Razzak found himself tangled up in controversy when he was reported for having a suspect action by match referee Roshan Mahanama on Sunday.
The 22-year-old left-arm spinner came under the International Cricket Council (ICC)'s scrutiny during Bangladesh's Asia Cup group match against Pakistan at the Sinhalese Sports Club Ground in Colombo on Saturday.

It was only the second one-day international for the young man from Khulna who made an impressive debut against Hong Kong just a day earlier taking three for 17 from nine overs.

The levelheaded bowler further enhanced his reputation in his first big test against Pakistan claiming 2-36 in 10 overs when more experienced campaigners around him struggled to make any impression.

But the ICC ruling has certainly come as a blow ahead of Bangladesh's second phase campaign in the competition. For Razzak, many feel the witch-hunting was unwarranted as he had played in every level of domestic cricket and also had a successful stint with the national A team without ever being reported, before he forced his way into the Tigers squad.


One of the leading wicket takers in first-class and one-day competitions at home, Razzak also took 15 scalps against the visiting Zimbabwe A in a five-match limited overs series earlier this year. His consistent performances earned him a place in the West Indies bound squad but he didn't feature in any of the three ODIs and returned home with the one-day specialists before the Test series.

Those who have followed the highly talented spinner from close quarters are of the opinion that there is nothing unusual in his action at the moment although he did have a problem in the early stages of his career.

"He used to bowl with a bent arm in the past. But that has been corrected over the last couple of years. I am confident that once the ICC takes a good look at his action, he will be cleared," said Bangladesh Krira Shikkha Protisthan (BKSP)'s cricket coach Mohammad Salahuddin, who has seen Razzak mature at the country's premier sports institute.

"Besides, reputed Indian coach Manjit Singh also did not find any problems when Razzak approached him just before the tour of Sri Lanka," informed Salahuddin who had also worked closely with Razzak as coach of his club Victoria during and after the 2003-2004 Dhaka Premier Division league.

Punjab's Manjit Singh, who had coached Indian star spinner Harbhajan Singh, is now imparting his wisdom on the BKSP boys.

The Bangladesh Cricket Board (BCB) has also rallied behind the cricketer and strongly dismissed a report published by news agency AFP that said that Razzak would miss the rest of the Asia Cup while quoting an unnamed Bangladesh official.

"There must have been a misunderstanding. I'm not aware of any of our officials making such a statement," said BCB's cricket operation's chief Mahbub Anam.

"He is very much in the team. Not only that we think he has come to play for Bangladesh for at lest ten to fifteen years," said Anam adding that the Board had no plans to bring Razzak back home.

"We will follow the standard procedure as prescribed by the law. But in the meantime there is no bar on him to continue playing," said Anam.


Source:Daily Star (http://www.thedailystar.net/2004/07/20/d40720040133.htm)

[Edited on 19-7-2004 by pompous]

Zobair
July 19, 2004, 05:41 PM
I am glad to see we are not taking this lying down. BCB should really come out and support its players just so, and set the right precedent. Razzak really needs all the support he can get for I can only imagine how devastating it can be to have your bowling integrity questioned. Hopefully Razzak is mature enough not to let his performance be affected.

TAIF
July 19, 2004, 06:28 PM
:great::great::great:

sageX
July 19, 2004, 11:09 PM
:fanflag: Yeah! We need to show some backbone.

Rubu
July 20, 2004, 12:13 AM
it would be really bad if team management dicided to leave him aside for the next matches. well, thanks heaven its not happening. bcb need to back him up, but of course they need to work on fixing his problem IF there is anything wrong.

i've a feeling that he'll take it as a big challenge and will fire tomorrow against india!

Rho
July 20, 2004, 02:06 AM
sorry Nasif, as you correctly referred to the post having funny logic.
I just hate it when someone tells me something and right way I find out it's the opposite. But I know it's not your fault and you just gave me your opinion. Sorry again.
dumb post ;P maaph chai!!! plzzzzz

chinaman
July 20, 2004, 03:20 AM
He was reported for his quicker deliveries but his entire action is not suspect as far as I know. We have decided to stand beside the young player for the rest of the tournament. If there is any further problem, we will take steps to rectify his action after the meet.

Daily Star: Injured Javed to sit out next match >> (http://www.thedailystar.net/2004/07/20/d4072001077.htm)

mahbubH
July 20, 2004, 03:29 AM
I like the way daily Star handled the Razzak issue... I was expecting a formal media release from BCB on this regard.

Arnab
July 20, 2004, 10:07 AM
Ok I took one of Razzak's videos and did the following:

1:http://www.banglacricket.com/tours/TEST/raj1.jpg
2:http://www.banglacricket.com/tours/TEST/raj2.jpg
3:http://www.banglacricket.com/tours/TEST/raj3.jpg
4:http://www.banglacricket.com/tours/TEST/raj6.jpg
5:http://www.banglacricket.com/tours/TEST/raj4.jpg

And why is he wearing full-sleeves on a hot summer day while everybody else in the field is wearing short sleeves?

[Edited on 20-7-2004 by Arnab]

rassel
July 20, 2004, 10:15 AM
Second picture looks to me a dila?:umm:

Arnab
July 20, 2004, 10:19 AM
Yeah, but we should be concerned with pictures #3 and #4: the moment before and the moment when the ball leaves his hand. That angle is the crux of the issue.

rassel
July 20, 2004, 10:22 AM
Yes # 3 especially, his arm bending the wrong way.

Arnab
July 20, 2004, 10:25 AM
Actually I take back a few things. That camera is angled from the cover region (right hand bat). It's not aligned with the bowling crease. So the angle calculations will be different.

When viewed from a camera aligned with the bowling crease, the angle could get larger or smaller.

[Edited on 20-7-2004 by Arnab]

rassel
July 20, 2004, 10:33 AM
Nevertheless # 4 is definitely questionable. You see when he releasees the ball his elbow is not bending enough.

Zobair
July 20, 2004, 11:02 AM
Actually I think #4 is when he rotates his arm around his elbow and jerks his wrist to give his ball the spin and the rotation. In #4, the arm is probably not straightened rather the elbow is facing out of the picture. Thus the arm straightening is an illusion! I think this can be corroborated if you looked at his action from the back (like in the original looping video by nasif).



Originally posted by rassel
Nevertheless # 4 is definitely questionable. You see when he releasees the ball his elbow is not bending enough.

[Edited on 20-7-2004 by pompous]

chinaman
July 20, 2004, 11:05 AM
Great job Arnab.

Our site has now grown to have reached to such magnitude that the national players and their close associates regularly pay visits here. I think we should be very careful in making comments and prematurely jump to any conclusion right away. These comments might have far reaching effects and even may cause harm to the confidence of players and the team.

To clarify a little, from certain angles our elbow joint does not look straight because of a natural "carrying angle". Besides, images from multiple angles of the same position are necessary to determine even a small straightening of the elbow joint. You might recall that even medical doctors routinely order for X-Rays from atleast two angles to rule out or confirm any bony fracture.

Some of the above pictures do look the elbow to be bent, but we do not know if it represents the normal carrying angle or any deformity.

The best course to take for us at the moment would be to unconditionally rally behind Razzak and the team while pushing the authority to take the right direction at the right time.

Arnab
July 20, 2004, 11:18 AM
I differ from the viewpoint of "unconditionally rallying" behind a bowler with a suspect action.

As honest fans, we should unconditionally rally for the truth. Honesty supersedes patriotism.

And I don't think Razzak's bowling action will suddenly change from reading these posts.

say
July 20, 2004, 11:24 AM
I second Arnab here.. This is a technical issue - there's no point 'rallying behind' anyone this is not a subjective choice of anyone. We are only being delusional if we are not seeing an obvious problem.

chinaman
July 20, 2004, 11:44 AM
Well, we don't know the thruth yet or do we? His action is only "suspect" at this moment and not "cofirmed" by any scientific method or by an accredited body. Negative comments may not change his bowling action but his and the team's confidence may take a hyke.

What happens to the "Innocent until proven guilty" thing? Did the umpires no-balled him for his action? Has it been proven that he really bends his elbow beyond the acceptable limits?

In the absence of the answers, I ask for patience and support.

Nasif
July 20, 2004, 12:08 PM
Arnab, great job man :)

I think we should have continued this discussion (right from Arnab's image analysis post) in the other thread (Let us review razzaq's action video). Should I split it and merge with the other one?

In any event, I think the side view angle isn't a conclusive one. His arm is completely straight right at the moment of release. I would suggest all of you to carefully go through all the images in picture profile.

Take a closer look at this looping video. His arm at release is fully straight:
http://games.banglacricket.com/picture.php?p=135

rockpundit
July 20, 2004, 02:27 PM
The pictures show it all.... The frame where he just leaves the ball is the only frame of importance and it shows that his arm is as straight as an arrow...

rockpundit
July 20, 2004, 03:07 PM
I cant believe this. Arnab, I dont really understand your actual motive for coming to this site. We all know that we cant change BCB's decisions from here. What we can do is discuss among ourselves just for the fun of it...

Arnab
July 20, 2004, 04:34 PM
Ok, Here's the law.

Definition of fair delivery the arm

A ball is fairly delivered in respect of the arm if, once the bowler's arm has reached the level of the shoulder in the delivery swing, the elbow joint is not straightened partially or completely from that point until the ball has left the hand. This definition shall not debar a bowler from flexing or rotating the wrist in the delivery swing.

So as I read it, from THIS point (where Razzak's arm has reached shoulder level during his delivery swing):

http://www.banglacricket.com/tours/TEST/raj2.jpg

Razzak cannot have a bent elbow that can later be straightened (as some of you are suggesting happening just as he is releasing his delivery), unless he has a deformity that makes him unable to do so.

So, if I am not mistaken, as per law, he cannot go from here :

http://www.banglacricket.com/tours/TEST/raj3.jpg

to here:
http://www.banglacricket.com/tours/TEST/raj6.jpg

UNLESS:

There's an optical illusion here due to:

a. The camera angle
b. Razzak's deformity

And Razzak's use of long sleeves is definitely not helping.

[Edited on 20-7-2004 by Arnab]

chinaman
July 20, 2004, 04:51 PM
Razzak cannot have a bent elbow that can later be straightened (as some of you are suggesting happening just as he is releasing his delivery), unless he has a deformity that makes him unable to do so.Yes, this is absolutely right for the delivery stride.

The bent that you marked in the above picture could very much represent the normal carrying angle. See if you can reproduce similar "bent" without actually bending the elbow, by placing the arm in a mock delivery in front of a mirror.

Furthermore, from Bashar's comment, it seems like his quicker deliveries, not the stock balls, are suspect. If this is true than how could we be sure that all the above pics are from quicker deliveries instead of his stock balls?

Arnab
July 20, 2004, 05:10 PM
All the pics are from the same delivery. And the ball was a pretty much a stock ball, slow. The batsman got out out caught by misjudging the flight.

But yeah, it's inconclusive.

the_wall
July 20, 2004, 05:24 PM
First of all arnab a really good job. It really shows that there is a problem with his action. But even if there is a problem ICC will not be BANNING him from bowling . He will have to work with experts and get it fixed. Now as Rockpundit said we can't change BCB's decision (although he will play against India) but I feel all this has reaally been done over the curiosity of loosing a talented bowler.

This really shows that we have some really supportive fans. However the topic of having fans should not really be raised as far as bangladeshi fans are concerned they probably are the best in the world. At least when we compare them with Indian or pkai fans as the they are no where close to being as supportive as Bangladeshi fans are. So really it should be the other way round for me rockpundit when it comes to learning about how to support. However from whatever posts u have written it really seems to me that u r a REALLY TRUE fan of bangladesh cricket and people like rho may just be better of learning how to support Bangladesh by following u as he really needs a lesson on how to support ur own country even while leaving outside the country.

(the topic of fans should reaaly not have been raised as this website is in itself an example of bangladeshi fans. however when people like rho are there doubt over bangladeshi fan following may always be raised)




:fanflag:

[Edited on 20-7-2004 by the_wall]

chinaman
July 20, 2004, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by the_wall
First of all arnab a really good job. It really shows that there is a problem with his action.

Yes, he did a tremendous job. But it doesn't conclusively show any problem. If Bashar's comment is true and if the pics are from stock balls (as Arnab said) then all the pics are from legal deliveries. See my explanations above.

Rho has been a very good fan and a dedicated member of this forum for a long time. It is not wise for a new member to be judgemental of other members. Besides, we actively discourrage any member (except for the moderators for obvious reasons) to play big brother. Thank you for your co-operation and support.

sageX
July 20, 2004, 06:12 PM
This pictures doesn't prove anything. Good picture arrangment but to make a conclusion this is unadequate.

Beside it is the release angle that is important. Pic 5 is the most important because it shows the release point. In pic 5 his hand is straight. Pic 4 will be bent for any bowler in earth. Whoever played little cricket knows that. Who can have 360 straight motion. Robot maybe.

sageX
July 20, 2004, 06:21 PM
No offense! Just an observation. Chinaman always back the pessimist as valued member expressing valued opinion. Chinaman is himself a pessimist. So he protect pessimist. I guess chinaman got burnt so many times by BD team that he forgot how to be optimist.

Chinaman look around tide is turning.
:)

chinaman
July 20, 2004, 06:28 PM
Hahaha. Look no further than this thread to get my views. Cheers.

sageX
July 20, 2004, 06:33 PM
Good man! Keep it up.:)

rockpundit
July 20, 2004, 07:25 PM
Highly technical analysis. I applaud all of you...

Nasif
July 20, 2004, 07:33 PM
I don't like two seperate thread running independently with same topic.

I think I will merge the video footage thread with this one.

chinaman
July 20, 2004, 07:53 PM
I'd suggest to let it continue as it is for one or two more days before merging or splitting as this is a hot topic and the pics might prolong the loading time for some viewers.

Tintin
July 20, 2004, 11:43 PM
Nasif, can you get a similar gif for some other left arm spinner for comparing it with Razzak - not Rafeeq, but Jayasuriya or someone.

tia.

Nasif
July 21, 2004, 12:24 AM
Originally posted by Tintin
Nasif, can you get a similar gif for some other left arm spinner for comparing it with Razzak - not Rafeeq, but Jayasuriya or someone.

tia.

I will try to get it.

chinaman
July 21, 2004, 02:39 AM
Originally posted by Tintin
Nasif, can you get a similar gif for some other left arm spinner for comparing it with Razzak - not Rafeeq, but Jayasuriya or someone.

tia. Good idea. Please try to get the stock balls if possible. Thanks.