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View Full Version : Let us review Razzaq's action video


Nasif
July 19, 2004, 08:24 PM
I have uploaded extensive footages for us to judge his action. All together there are more than 10. Visit Razzaq's profile at:
http://games.banglacricket.com/profile.php?n=raj
All video and looping pictures are listed there.

Here is one:
<img src=http://www.banglacricket.com/games/images/cricketers/Raj-action5(lbw).gif>


[Edited on 20-7-2004 by nasif]

TigerFan
July 19, 2004, 09:21 PM
Jazak Allah nasif bhai. You're great!

I don't see him chucking. Do U guys?

[Edited on 20-7-2004 by TigerFan]

Piranha
July 19, 2004, 10:08 PM
How the hell did you attach the video/looping picture?

Nasif
July 19, 2004, 10:22 PM
Originally posted by Piranha
How the hell did you attach the video/looping picture?

Its an animated gif.

Only difference between
:joy: < - this and the picture above is that it is created by stitching together real video footage :)

[Edited on 20-7-2004 by nasif]

Nasif
July 20, 2004, 01:04 AM
Originally posted by TigerFan
Jazak Allah nasif bhai. You're great!

I don't see him chucking. Do U guys?

[Edited on 20-7-2004 by TigerFan]

Thanks TigerFan.

I don't think he is chucking either.

Zobair
July 20, 2004, 01:08 AM
Thanks nasif for the excellent piece of work :) In any case, there is nothing to panic about. The review process should clear everything.

[Edited on 20-7-2004 by pompous]

Rho
July 20, 2004, 02:11 AM
I actually think he's chucking (from watching the looping pictures at least) though I can say so with 25% confidence. I see his arm bent before it suddenly straightens just prior to release. that is very fishy.

[Edited on 7-20-2004 by Rho : more info]

ZunaidH
July 20, 2004, 10:16 AM
He is definitely not chucking. From the bginning of his delivery action till he releases the ball, he seems to rotate his arm at quite a large radius and this gives an illusion that he is rotating his arm. That's all. I think the iluusion would be discounted if he was not wearing a full-sleeve shirt. Someone should have told him this before the match to wear a half sleeve shirt.

-ghor_jamai

P.S. There is nothing called a 25% confidence in statistics. 95% confidence level is anything that has any significance. I have studied mathematics long enough to know that.

[Edited on 20-7-2004 by ghor_jamai]

mahbubH
July 20, 2004, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by ghor_jamai
He is definitely not chucking. From the bginning of his delivery action till he releases the ball, he seems to rotate his arm at quite a large radius and this gives an illusion that he is rotating his arm. That's all. I think the iluusion would be discounted if he was not wearing a full-sleeve shirt. Someone should have told him this before the match to wear a half sleeve shirt.

-ghor_jamai



P.S. There is nothing called a 25% confidence in statistics. 95% confidence level is anything that has any significance. I have studied mathematics long enough to know that.

[Edited on 20-7-2004 by ghor_jamai]

You are right ghor_jamai !! Full sleeve is not helping Razzak but makes the thing worse.

say
July 20, 2004, 10:32 AM
thanks nasif.. Excellent research effort..

I think Rajís action should be checked. There's a little jerk and straightening motion in his action which is visible - but the question is, is it within the ICC permitted limit.

I don't understand how the coaches and everyone else didn't see this before. Did the coach think he would not be noticed by the ICC with this action? Shouldn't all this need to be sorted out before playing a young player. I simply don't understand how the coaching and managerial staff hasnít seen this problem before.

I'm very grateful of what he has contributed to our team but it is Dav Whatmore who should be held responsible for this whole Razzak episode.

[Edited on 20-7-2004 by say]

Zobair
July 20, 2004, 10:32 AM
The full sleeves are perhaps to protect his arms from the heat. Some of our compatriots are quite concered about their skin tone, as silly as it sounds :D

Originally posted by ghor_jamai
He is definitely not chucking. From the bginning of his delivery action till he releases the ball, he seems to rotate his arm at quite a large radius and this gives an illusion that he is rotating his arm. That's all. I think the iluusion would be discounted if he was not wearing a full-sleeve shirt. Someone should have told him this before the match to wear a half sleeve shirt.

-ghor_jamai

P.S. There is nothing called a 25% confidence in statistics. 95% confidence level is anything that has any significance. I have studied mathematics long enough to know that.

[Edited on 20-7-2004 by ghor_jamai]

Piranha
July 20, 2004, 10:33 AM
The full sleeve is definitely making things worse. The sleeve lags behind the arm during movement - this magnifies any perception of chucking.

I think ghor_jamai is right about extended rotation.

Faceoff
July 20, 2004, 11:24 AM
He definitely bents his arm. The question is how much? Hard to judge with full sleeves on. Probably a comparison (video)with some other similar action (legal) bowler would help.

Nasif
July 20, 2004, 12:13 PM
The posted looping video is not the only one. There are more. Look at his <a href=http://games.banglacricket.com/profile.php?n=raj>pictures in the profile</a>.

Please look at this one:
http://games.banglacricket.com/picture.php?p=135

His arm is completely straight at release point. The bend is before he goes into release position. But at release position he is straight.

Ockey
July 20, 2004, 12:24 PM
Nasif, good work on the videos but he was reported for chucking in the Pak match, and only for his quicker deliveries. Not to take away from your effort but if we are to fairly judge whether he is chucking or not we should review video footage of his quicker deliveries from the Pak game. Not sure if the footage you put up is that of a quicker delivery.





[Edited on 20-7-2004 by Ockey]

Nasif
July 20, 2004, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by Ockey
Nasif, good work on the videos but he was reported for chucking in the Pak match, and only for his quicker deliveries. Not to take away from your effort but if we are to fairly judge whether he is chucking or not we should review video footage of his quicker deliveries from the Pak game. Not sure if the footage you put up is that of a quicker delivery.

Footage is from different deliveries, few wicket taking ones which includes the quicker one also. I didn't think he would bowl completely different in Pak match, as it is only a day after.

The reason I didn't capture from Pak match is that, the video econding had some problem in it, it was taking quite some time to fix it.

In any event, I think the footage is extensive enough for us to judge his overall bowling action.

[Edited on 20-7-2004 by nasif]

rockpundit
July 20, 2004, 01:09 PM
Well as far as ive heard , only his faster deliveries are in doubt. Its like Muralis doosra, as long as he doesnt bowl that delivery, he should be fine. From the vid , its absolutely obvious that he does not chuck (and after all , spinners are allowed 5 degrees of bending)

nihi
July 20, 2004, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by nasif
Footage is from different deliveries, few wicket taking ones which includes the quicker one also. I didn't think he would bowl completely different in Pak match, as it is only a day after.

The reason I didn't capture from Pak match is that, the video econding had some problem in it, it was taking quite some time to fix it.

In any event, I think the footage is extensive enough for us to judge his overall bowling action.

[Edited on 20-7-2004 by nasif]

Good work, Nasif. But, I differ on your claim for this footage to be extensive enough. This footage, as well as any other single footage of a full delivery action cannot be comprehensive.

To consider this footage as an example, it seems like he is straightening his arm at the time of release. As many have explained many places in this forum, this can be misleading.

Consider this:

we can see, his arm is bent right before he releases the ball, and the elbow seems to be protruding towards the left side. at the time of releasing, it seems straightened. Now it may well be that he is delivering an off break (as far as I can see. if you have added a few more frames, we could be sure of that). in that case, he will have to quickly twist his arm clockwise (from our POV), more so if he is a wrist spinner. If that is the case, his elbow will shift towards the top, giving an illusion of a straightened arm.

Now, If you take a closer look, right after he releases the ball, his elbow again seems bent, and that is also protruding towards the left, which might be because, his arm comes back to normal position.

Now, when it seems normal that he must twist his arm during an off break, we may not be sure actually how much he would actually need to, or for that matter, does he need that much so that the elbow rides on the top.

Also you can see an apparent jerk during the delivery, which also might be on account of the projection we are getting from camera position, as the projection of the camera is almost perpendicular with the arm during the release. Here also, playing with naked eye may not prove enough to decide wether that jerk was proportionate to the projection angle.

Now, all these complexity arises because of the bent arm action. If an arm is straight all along, there is no problem, the projection will be same from all angles.

For the very reason that the australian experts had to use multiple cameras for Murali, there is no easy way to arrive to a conclusion by using play ground footages, since, you may never get footages from different angles of a single delivery.

My aim was to show that it is not wise to come to a decision from a footage or two, and to decide whether the delivery was legal or not. But again, it was a very good effort from Nasif.

Rho
July 21, 2004, 04:05 AM
Originally posted by nasif
His arm is completely straight at release point. The bend is before he goes into release position. But at release position he is straight.

but man that is what constitutes a throw. bowler's arm has to keep same angle (+/- x. x = the angle of flexing permitted by law).

As someone else here saw the jerking in his delivery and stated the ICC bowling review panel now has to judge if the straightening is within the legal limit. It's hard to tell from these pictures and videos, at least for me.