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hisidhu85143
August 1, 2004, 05:05 AM
India’s 150 million dollar aid offer to modernize Bangladesh rail – an excellent political and fiscal move!
Prakash Joshi, Special Correspondent
July 23, 2004

India made an excellent move by offering $150 million aid to Bangladesh in modernizing her railway infrastructure. India today can afford it and should take the opportunity to help South Asian neighbors who traditionally look towards US and China for any such help. Indian Government also indicated that the offer has no prerequisites attached to it and does not expect Bangladesh to do anything in return.

Bangladesh Foreign Minister M. Morshed Khan said Friday that India had offered $150 million for improvement of Bangladesh's railway sector. Indian External Affairs Minister Natwar Singh made the offer during a meeting with his Bangladeshi counterpart on the sidelines of the SAARC foreign ministers meeting held July 20-21 in the Pakistani capital Islamabad, reports said. The communications ministers of the two countries would discuss and take a final decision on the offer, Khan told reporters at Dhaka's Zia International Airport on his arrival from Pakistan. He ruled out the notion that the offer was in any way linked to rail transit between the two counties. "We've addressed each other's concerns and discussed how to reduce the trade imbalance between the two countries," Khan said. He said Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh would meet Bangladesh Prime Minister Khaleda Zia on the sidelines of the BIMST-EC summit in Bangkok scheduled on July 29-30.

This will foster good will between the family of South Asian nations. Sharing economic prosperity without any apparent immediate expectations make a great power. This will produce economic prosperity for Bangladesh and in turn peace in the subcontinent.

So what do u guys say now?
Text

[Edited on 8-7-2004 by chinaman : Title changed.]

Ahmed_B
August 1, 2004, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by hisidhu85143
So what do u guys say now?


... by the way... what is your point pls?!

reinausagi
August 1, 2004, 11:08 AM
Personally I neither love, nor hate India. Politicall I've always mistrusted her morives. Not since the urine drinking Morarji Desai was PM of India, have I trusted any Indian administration in their dealings with Bangladesh. For those who do not recall, Desai actually ordered RAW to cease and desist the majority of covert and subversive activities in Bangladesh patronised in the Indira government and ratted out the Bangladeshi proxies working within Bangladesh as agents of Indian intelligence services.

If India really wants to generate trust among Bangladeshis, they should stop hogging all the riverine waters upstream, stop practicing gun-boat diplomacy when it comes to new sand dunes emerging in the bay of bengal and most of all, distance itself from perpetuating a patronising attitude towards it's neighbors. Getting rid of the Hindu chauvanist BJP government is a positive start.

Navarene
August 1, 2004, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by hisidhu85143
So what do u guys say now?
Text

India's neighbouring governments have always been well aware of Indo-imperialistic besiege in this south asian region. However, the constant fight of corporate capital within SAARC members will never allow India to dominate solely for its obvious historical reason.

So I say now hush up and stop showing off "dada giri"!

sageX
August 2, 2004, 12:19 AM
150 million dollar is a lot of money. Even England pledged only 18 million. 150 million though is a lot of money it is nothing comparing to 7 billion dollar total flood damage. Now the question is what 7 billion dollar damage has to do with India?
India made the dam on the internetional river Gonga which keep the Calcutta port accesible to ship all the time. This dam hold sufficient water for the port at any given time. As a consequece flow of water in Gonga slowed significantly when it enters bangladesh. Gonga lost the river path and narrowed down signficantly due to silt deposit and lack of water during past decade. So when huge amount of snow melt in Himalayas the water eventually end up in Bangladesh as it is the biggest delta for Himalyan rivers. But river path is narrowed and not capable of running the water in the Bay of Bangal. This is a major reason Bangladesh is loosing billions of Dollar due to uncontolled flood.
So If India has true good intention towards Bangladesh they should sit with us and solve this water distribution problem to solve flooding problem permanently in both Bangladesh and India due to Ganga river. Though 150 million is a good amount it is to solve the rail line problem. This is great but this will also make sure that Indian goods flow all over Bangladesh without interruption. This is not a permanent flood solution.

ZunaidH
August 2, 2004, 09:57 AM
hisidhu85143;

There is no hatred. We are peace loving people. I noticed that some of the Indian fans in the past have tried to extrapolate all the negative comments against Indian cricket team to a political perspective.

On the issue of this thread, apart from my position of being neutral , there is certainly a feeling of mistrust. I have travelled to every south asian country (except Pakistan). Unfortunately, the mistrust is quite common in every single place I have visited. The truth remains that Indian bi-lateral policies with any of these countires remain far from being fair. Whether you accept that or not is a different issue.

Ahmed_B
August 2, 2004, 01:44 PM
yes.. this hisidhu guy mixed up cricket and national and political Image/Impression..

AsifTheManRahman
August 2, 2004, 01:56 PM
prottek din bordere guli koira koira manush marle to political impression kharap hoiboi...

Rubu
August 3, 2004, 01:50 PM
i'm not an india hater, but i'm a ganguli hater. if anyone wants to mingle this two and make it same, u are welcome to do so.

Habibul_bashar
August 3, 2004, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by AgentSmith
i'm not an india hater, but i'm a ganguli hater. if anyone wants to mingle this two and make it same, u are welcome to do so.

Ganguli also bangali.Because his langu.....is bangla.I also ganguli hater

AsifTheManRahman
August 4, 2004, 11:42 AM
I hate a lot of stuff abt india...a lot of stuff abt it's foreign policy...and i also dont like the way it's media exaggerates stuff. but that doesnt mean that i dislike everything abt india or it's people.

billah
August 4, 2004, 01:09 PM
In dollar value, this must be the largest farse of all Indian farses. India has been looking for this opportunity for two decades now. I have high confidence in Morshed that he will not fall for this trap. Facts:


- India created an astonishing 550 kilomete detour on the Asian Highway, only to bypass Bangladesh.

- Morshed refused to sign the 23 nation treaty on this point.

- Now China has offered full cooperation to create the Myanmar-Bangladesh link to the Asian Highway.

-Thailand has also pledged full cooperation to Bangladesh with this plan.

-The Bangladesh Army core of Engineers has efficiently built the Bangladesh part of the Highway, ahead of schedule.

- The Bay of Bengal reaches the deepest inland at Bangladesh, creating a great vantage point for transshipment of Chinese cargo.

-We are giving Myanmar the funding and tech to build their part of this highway, just as India did it with them not too long ago.

-This rout will greatly benefit Thailand, China, Myanmar and Bangladesh.

-This rout will be a great disadvantage of the Indian rout, which is longer in the tune of 550 wopping kilometers.

"Gosh, what a do now? We built this **** looking detour just to shaft our neighbors. We spent hundreds of millions of Indian public's money in vein! Now, these buggers are bypassing the whole thing!" Hence the 150 million trap. A small price to pay to buy the sovereignity of a nation.

Creating a Railway transit is the temporary solution to keep India even in the picture with the Asian Highway. They want to collect duties and transport fees on the Chinese and Thai transshipment, which, otherwise will bypass them. They will build these into the rail system they propose to help us with. The second possible benefit in helping us with the Railway, they might finally get their transit, that they have been trying to get for years, wanting to move massive amount of people, equipment, cargo right through the middle of our country. What a dream that would be for a full scale military invasion!

I am sure my analysis has many flaws, however it is based on facts. Several decades ago India misused a grand amount of public money to build the dam across the Ganges also. Today, Farakka is a salvage property. It has caused much more damage to India'g natural resources and environment than to any others. 85% of the dam is permanently inoperable today. Same goes for most of other dams built upstream of these Himalayan rivers. Today, floods in India are reaching bibilical proportions due to the blunders of these dams. They inflict much heavier casualties on India than on it's tiny neighbor Bangladesh. A result of doing things with the wrong intention in mind.

India exports rebellion, terrorism, separatism to all it's neighbors as a state policy. The fact is, a destabilized region can never make for a stable India. The proof: India today is more divided within itself. Today, in India, we see the barbaric style race riots that would shame any civilized nation. We see tens of thousands (it is indeed tens of thousands) of farmers commiting suicide in protest for poverty and taxation as recent as today. Separatists in the Seven Sisters states are becoming so powerful that the states now use federal armies to fight them. Kashmir is a disaster. Religious fanatics and extremists are proud policymakers and lawmakers for the nation(an undeniable fact). These heroes are so convincing that even psuodo-racists like Naipaul has thrown away his mask and joined in. A true shame for a civic society.

Ethnically, the people of the subcontinent are not very different than each other, regardless of country. I am convinced that the general everyday Indians, no matter which part of the country they are from, do not dream of becoming the masters of their neighbors. Yet, today, there is a focused and concentrated effort by the very government of India to run a massive smear campaign against Bangladesh. Proof: Just pull any, and I mean, any negative international news against Bangladesh, you will see that the source of that news is India or Indian. This is sad.

After dealing with lopsided trade policies for many years, we are just beginning to fight back. This year, Bangladesh filed its first official complaint on the issue to the WTO. Bangladesh, since her inception, through thick and thin, has been walking a fine line of neutrality on international conflicts in style. She is a model citizen of this planet. Being among the very poor, we are proudly the largest contributors to the UN peacekeeping force. We are taking firm steps towards a better democracy. Pakistan has military rule following a non-secular government. Until just a few months ago, India was ruled by religious facists. We have no such government. Our political parties do not call for Holy War and ethnic clensing, unlike that of India.

As a young nation, we are making great strides, while facing great oppression by our giant neighbor, India. Although, ironically, India's noble involvement in the birth of Bangladesh should make this a mother-child type relationship, a wholesome one.

A stronger Bangladesh will always make for a stronger India, and yes, a weaker, destabilized Bangladesh will make for an India with a fatal weakness. You can take that to the bank, along with your 150 million!

Bangla Mostan
August 4, 2004, 01:40 PM
What can i say..billah...the facts in your analysis speaks for itself..:)

We have to stride with our objectives and become stronger...dont aim outside the realism barrier....we can becoming a competitive nation if we work together...not kill each other..:flag:

jaga
August 4, 2004, 08:12 PM
Dada,

Addhekta shawndesher purotai khaie dilen.

sageX
August 4, 2004, 11:05 PM
I like India. I think India helped Bangladesh a lot. Following indian rupee Bangladeshi taka is better valued then pakistani rupee. So its not all bad. Bangladeshi think why not give me this, give me that and we donot want to even treat India fairly. It is always somebody else's fault, We need to stop thinking that way.
India developed a lot. We can learn couple of thinks from a nation which is getting things done.

cricketfan
August 5, 2004, 10:41 AM
Billah's anti India bias seems to run quite deep. I do not think any Pakistani newspaper writes so rabidly against India. If Billah's source of information is not Pakistan but BD newspapers then it is quite shocking to say the least.

There are many things wrong in India but despite them there are many things going right for India as well. There is light at the end of the tunnel and the light is getting brighter for India. One of the things India can be really proud of is its Railway system. It is one of the things that unites India, other things being Hindi Films and Cricket.

Indian Railways network is 63,000 km long and it has 10,000 stations. Everyday 10,000 pairs of trains run and 30 million people are travelling on these trains at any time. Indian Railways is self sufficient in its requirements. It has its own production units to manufacture different types of Diesel and Electric locomotives, passenger coaches, wagons etc.
The passenger reservation system of Indian Railways is the biggest reservation system of its kind anywhere in the world. One can book a ticket from anywhere to anywhere from anywhere in any of the several classes of accomodation in person or through internet. This reservation system and also the suburban train system in Mumbai which carries 5 million commuters every day by running trains every two minutes are to my mind two of the modern miracles of the world. There are many more miracles that Indian Railways perform almost on a daily basis.

Indian Railways has a huge annual budget. In fact, Indian government presents the Railway budget separately and before the General budget.

Most Asian and African countries find Indian Railways more appropriate and cost effective compared to Europe or US. I am sure BD will benefit immensely. Of course BD have the choice of taking or refusing the offer of India. If one tries to look for ulterior motives into anything and everything Indian then that cannot be helped. One can for instance seek Chinese help to develop BD Railways. But Chinese Railways, despite the impressive growth in Chinese economy are still some way behind Indian Railways. And never ever think of approaching US for such assistance. First of all they will not be bothered. Secondly, they will rip you off. Indian Railways have already done the hard work of going to US, Europe etc, getting ripped off, getting wiser, buying their technology, indigenising and starting manufacturing on their own. India has done the hard work for rest of the third world countries so that others need not re invent the wheel.

Please do not think that I have invented all the stuff written above. I have an indepth knowledge of Indian Railways because I am an insider in Indian Railways for last 20 years and I have seen the progress personally. In fact I have been involved in it personally.



[Edited on 5-8-2004 by cricketfan]

oracle
August 5, 2004, 11:08 AM
Balance please!

I would'nt mind some credit going to the British Empire amongst all this rail talk, even though as Cricket fan has rightly pointed out the strides made after independence.

sageX
August 5, 2004, 12:57 PM
Chinese people build rail line in USA. USA rail line system would be impossible without chinese labor. Indian train system was implemented by british Engineers. China do their own job. China also won the contract to build railway system in Afganistan.

Just to balance it.

billah
August 5, 2004, 01:37 PM
cricketfan has done a superb job sidestepping all that I said in my post here. I would very much like if you please address the issues I raised here point by point. After all, you are critisizing me here viciously, then you slip away to talk about the ultimate greatness of the great Indian railway system in detail. What gives? It seems you have training in the very eyewash technique of the Indian media. Since you are calling my post "biased" and "rabid", why not take it up to discuss? Step up to the plate. Bring it on!

ZunaidH
August 5, 2004, 03:51 PM
For Bangladesh, investing heavily in a railway system is a bad idea. Railroads work at places where flooding is not a huge deal as it is in Bangladesh. Climatic conditions in Bangladesh simply does not make a railway system very viable. Given our conditions, we should have a combination of road transportation coupled with shuttle ferries. Just because India has done well with railway system does not imply that we have to copy that.

On the other hand, Billah has launched quite a few bouncers, and some of them are legal deliveries. I am interested to see how any of our friends from India reply to these. I am especially interested in the following point:
"After dealing with lopsided trade policies for many years, we are just beginning to fight back. This year, Bangladesh filed its first official complaint on the issue to the WTO."

By all means, I am looking for a fair statement here -- no beating around the bush please.

jaga
August 5, 2004, 05:48 PM
"But Chinese Railways, despite the impressive growth in Chinese economy are still some way behind Indian Railways. "

"And never ever think of approaching US for such assistance. First of all they will not be bothered. Secondly, they will rip you off. Indian Railways have already done the hard work of going to US, Europe etc, getting ripped off, getting wiser, buying their technology, indigenising and starting manufacturing on their own. "

- cricketfan: Well, you want to advertise Indian Railways, go ahead. But don't bring in other countries.



"India has done the hard work for rest of the third world countries so that others need not re invent the wheel."

- What a idea :bravo: Completely disagree. India is just trying to do business. if I put it in your words: India is trying to "rip off" others. Fortunately others are getting "wiser".


And, I also found your reply to billah's post has nothing to do with what he said.

jaga
August 5, 2004, 05:55 PM
"I think India helped Bangladesh a lot. Following indian rupee Bangladeshi taka is better valued then pakistani rupee. So its not all bad."

Couldn't understand. what stronger taka has to do with Indian help.

And, if it is so it only makes Indian goods cheaper in Bangladesh: a perfect ground for dumping - destroying local industries.

Zobair
August 5, 2004, 09:28 PM
Couple of things:

I am not sure if cricketfan sidestepped anything. For one this thread's topic was about Indian assistance in our Railway sector, and he simply said why that may be a good idea for Bangladesh. Technically many of the things Billah talked about could be considered off-topic because they have gone on to things way beyond simple railways construction, and have mainly concentrated on the reasons behind our mistrust of India.

This is not to say that I disagree with Billah's points. Many of them are pretty valid, and it may be inconceivable to an ordinary well-meaning Indian citizen the extent to which some of the smaller neighbours have been treated unfairly at times by India. I guess one would have to be in shoes of the wronged to be really aware of what goes on.

However, we are all here in a spirit of friendship. So let us discuss in a positive manner and with an open mind and try and understand the other's point of view.

:)

rassel
August 5, 2004, 09:45 PM
"India’s 150 million dollar aid offer to modernize Bangladesh rail – an excellent political and fiscal move"


Sure, this way, it would be easier for India to export more stuff in our country. :umm:

rafiq
August 5, 2004, 10:13 PM
my 2 cents:

no country offers 150 big ones in assistance unless there is something in it for themselves. duh.

for those people thinking the givernment of bangladesh does NOT preach holy war, of course it doesn't. but what exactly is the campaign againist ahmadiya muslims all about? what about the takeover of the erstwhile centrist government by the far right? oh, I forget I am preaching to the choir... get a grip on reality, friends.

fab
August 5, 2004, 10:23 PM
With all due respect to Indians, who are not entirely responsible for their government's unethical conduct, we should note that this type of dada-giri mentality is NOT limited to India alone. Common examples are of course the US, China, heck even Australia with regards to its blatant theft of East Timor's natural resources. There is no shortage of countries that would, given the opportunity, gladly and happily amass wealth and benefit at the expense of a poorer country. Not that this makes dada-giri-ing excusable in any form..

Indians should understand that we do not 'hate' Indians, rather we are wary and even weary of their government's intentions and offers as we have previously been burnt on numerous ocassions. This is the reason why, hisidhu85143, you will find many proud Bangladeshis, myself included, who will not prostrate themselves at the thought of receiving such a large amount of aid from the Indian government (or ANY government for that matter).

Furthermore to dispel this myth of Bangladesh being a land of Indian haters; if this were true, why in God's name are Bollywood movies so popular in Bangladesh?

chinaman
August 5, 2004, 11:26 PM
I think the subject of this thread "To all the Indian haters?" is inappropriate. The post contains a public news which is used to make suggestions that the aid receipient do not have a right to or should not "hate" the donor. It also inappropritely singles out an imazinary group called "Indian haters".

India and Bangladesh have many unresolved issues, spaning from border to govt., sports to economy between them. But there is no such group exists by the name of "Indian haters". There are many Indians do not like certain things about Bangladesh. Similarly there are many Bangladeshis that do not like certain things about India.

I like to give hisidhu85143, the author of the first post a chance to clarify and justfy the subject. In the absence of a clarification, I'll change the subject in a day or two. Thank you.

sageX
August 5, 2004, 11:53 PM
This hate theory originated during the time of Mohadav. Accordingly

Mohadev came to bangal to spread his wisdom and knwoledge. He had high admiration of bangalee culture as it was reach in literature. Things did not work out good between Mohadev and Bangali. There was an incident were dogs were unleashed on him and he had a scare for his life. After all these Mohadev could not take it any more. So he retrieved into his home territory with great animosity about bangal people.
He started enjoying his followers in his home town who could truly understand the value of Mohadev. He preached his followers about bangalies as follows:
1) Barabrians
2) Who speak in the language of bird.

I just wonder that does Indian still believe in Mohadav or what? History! what it has to do with anything.

rafiq
August 6, 2004, 12:34 AM
I would also guess that the bulk of the money spent to do whatever infrastructure upgrades will actually go to Indian companies.

Tintin
August 6, 2004, 01:09 AM
I just wonder that does Indian still believe in Mohadav or what?


Never heard of him !

PoorFan
August 6, 2004, 03:40 AM
We should not comment on this subject, since the title itself questionable.

sageX
August 6, 2004, 04:43 AM
Originally posted by Tintin

I just wonder that does Indian still believe in Mohadav or what?


Never heard of him !

Maybe thats why you are our favorite Tintin.

[Edited on 6-8-2004 by sageX]

billah
August 6, 2004, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by rafiq
my 2 cents:

no country offers 150 big ones in assistance unless there is something in it for themselves. duh.

for those people thinking the givernment of bangladesh does NOT preach holy war, of course it doesn't. but what exactly is the campaign againist ahmadiya muslims all about? what about the takeover of the erstwhile centrist government by the far right? oh, I forget I am preaching to the choir... get a grip on reality, friends.

Rafiq bhai: For the records, there is not anti Ahmadiya campaign endorsed by any government or government affiliated parties in Bangladesh. In comparison, Pakistan recognizes them as non-muslim by state policy. In India, BJP endorsed and supported many controversial pubic projects and policies that go directly against the rights of the minorities.

On your second point there, any position gained by these "right" people is a failure of foresight by both of the major rival political parties. It is however, by no means a "takeover". The so-called "Centrist" government has given a few seats to the so-called right in Bangladesh as part of a power deal. Please keep in mind, I'm not at all warm & fuzzy with the very idea, but I can't consider it a "takeover'.:)

rafiq
August 6, 2004, 11:34 PM
Billah, you may not be very familiar with the ahmadiya issue in Bangladesh. Please visit dirshtipat.org to read press reports and other articles if you want. One of the 4 parties in the 4 party alliance is directly involved in calling for a declaration of Ahmadiyas as non-Muslims and a ban on their mosques, religious texts etc. The GOB at first resisted this effort, but later succumbed to it by ordering the ban on Ahmadiya texts on the grounds that they may offend religious sentiment.

I don't care about nuances in our interpretation of who is in power where and how they got there. Whether these parties are left right or center we can argue about all day. But what is happening to the Ahmadiyas is well-orchestrated and it isn't the first time either. Please check the facts.

cricketfan
August 7, 2004, 12:40 AM
Remarks on certain points made in this thread

1. The title of the thread should really be different to reflect the topic, something like " India offers to help upgrade BD Railways" or something similar.

2. Never heard of the person called "Mohadev". I have not read or heard about him. I do not think there will be too many people who may be aware of him in India. Must be a mythical person of folklore in BD but certainly not in India.

3. Billah comments on sidestepping the issue: The issue was Railway assistance and I considered myself qualified enough to offer my remarks. Other issues that he discusses are not pertinent to the topic. I can offer the view from the other side's point of view on his observatons but that will be inappropriate for this site.

4. Apprehensions about Indian intentions: Gaining BD market could be a reason behind Indian offer, but trying to improve relations with BD could also be a more compelling reason. Or is it too far fetched for many people to believe ?

5. As pointed out by some moderators, one needs to try and see the point of view of the others to gain a better understanding. Some of the posts are indeed quite balanced in this thread and will help in better mutual understanding.

6. As mentioned above, some of the points raised which are off topic can be addressed from the point of view of the other side, but it may be inappropriate for this forum because it may go contrary to the policy of this site. However , it may be appropriate to discuss them via U2U or e mail if one is interested to see the point of view of the other side.

[Edited on 7-8-2004 by cricketfan]

billah
August 7, 2004, 11:27 AM
Remarks on cricketfan's post here:

On your point 3: The issue here, no matter how much you want to fudge it, was not railway assistance. It was, as the title says, to provoke feedbacks from so-called "India Haters". And yes, you definitely sidestepped the partinent issues here.

On your point 4: India dishing out 150 millon to improve relationship with Bangladesh is not only "Too far fetched", it is beyond belief. In fact, so much so, that, it is laughable. A normal first reaction is a loud, belly laugh for most of us.

On point 5 & 6: This is indeed a public forum, titled "Forget Cricket". I can see how you would rather not discuss some of these for obvious reasons, however, I see no harm in pointing out facts that are already out there for all to see. No reason to hide behind u2u on these, specially for a Bangladeshi on a Bangladesh related site. If you are so adherent to "Policies" here, may be you should think before starting your response with personal attacks.

Thankies.

billah
August 7, 2004, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by rafiq
Billah, you may not be very familiar with the ahmadiya issue in Bangladesh. Please visit dirshtipat.org to read press reports and other articles if you want. One of the 4 parties in the 4 party alliance is directly involved in calling for a declaration of Ahmadiyas as non-Muslims and a ban on their mosques, religious texts etc. The GOB at first resisted this effort, but later succumbed to it by ordering the ban on Ahmadiya texts on the grounds that they may offend religious sentiment.

I don't care about nuances in our interpretation of who is in power where and how they got there. Whether these parties are left right or center we can argue about all day. But what is happening to the Ahmadiyas is well-orchestrated and it isn't the first time either. Please check the facts.

Rafiq bhai: You are right, I am not "very familiar with Ahmadiya issue in Bangladesh". However, I know for a fact that a number of pronounced enemies of Bangladesh have involved themselves with the dristipat campaign. These people have made a career in running anti-Bangladesh campaign, with finacial backing from Indian sources. They have mixed themselves well by hiding behind these apparently well-intended orgs. I know which "one of the four party" you are talking about, it is the "usual suspect". See I have real problem seeing any of these people holding any public positions. Although, our constitution does have protection for religious groups against texts that may be offensive to them.

It is indeed unbelievable when I see these sworn enemies of Bangladesh, most of which are of Indian origin, gather the International media in New York and threaten to have India attack Bangladesh! A number of these devils are with drishtipat! Why?

rafiq
August 7, 2004, 11:44 PM
Billah, what in the world are you talking about? The Bangladesh human rights focused group, Drishtipat, does not have an "Ahmadiya campaign" going on that I am aware of, and I am on it's Board of Directors. The organization highlights human rights abuses in Bangladesh, and started doing this during the last AL rule and continued on to the current BNP regime.

The Ahmadiya issue in Bangladesh is gross human rights abuse so there was a petition to GOB that many DP members signed and we cover the latest news in our website and publications. There is no campaign as such, rather the objective is to let Bangladeshis know about the Ahmadiya issue and raise awareness.

You have made some very preposterous statements here. Perhaps you are thinking of some other organization. Unless you can back up your statements with facts, don't make them. Your opinion on Ahmadiya persecution may not be the same as mine, and that's OK. But please don't slander people whom you probably don't know and when you have no idea what you are talking about.

btw the party that led the anti-Ahmadiya campaign was not Jamaat but one of the other smaller Islamic parties, so perhaps you were not aware of that either based on your quote. no matter.

To everyone else, sorry that we digressed but the original topic was rather boring. This tangent has now turned into slander so I'll stop unless billah wants to dig a bigger hole for himself.

cheers.

coolheels
August 8, 2004, 04:55 AM
India making dams that are creating havoc in India,India exporting terrorism, India on the verge of breakup- Billah sure seems to know things about India that no one else has ever heard of. From a country that was dependent on foreign aids for its survival till 20 years back, India has stopped taking loans and and is now giving aids to other third world countries. 150 millions is a huge amount considering that the annual foreign direct investment that BD attracts is a meagre 350 million dollars. India could not have reached the stage from an aid taker country to an aid giving country if the Indian Government's policies were as foolish as Billah thinks they were.

India gives similar aid to other neighbours such as Sri Lanka and Bhutan also as mentioned in the news items below.

India pushes for economic pact with Sri Lanka (http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_7-5-2004_pg4_15)

Aid to African countries up (http://www.hindu.com/2004/07/09/stories/2004070901061300.htm)



[Edited on 8-8-2004 by coolheels]

billah
August 18, 2004, 03:30 PM
Dear coolheels: "India making dams that are creating havoc in India" is a fact supported by top Indian scientists. I'm sorry, can't help if you are not well-read on the subject, in this case, it would indeed be surprising.

"India on the verge of breakup" - I never said it , you did. Typical indian style in putting words in other people's mouth.

Another fact, India is still an aid taker indeed.

"Indian Government's policies were as foolish" - I never said it, you did. Typical propaganda style. I did however said, India exports terrorism to it's neighbor, I also said that thousands of farmers in India are commiting suicide in protest of poverty and taxation as recently as today. I also said India has violent race riots regularly. All are facts. Please step up and agrue them. Don't try the eyewash with your words.

Thanks.

billah
August 18, 2004, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by rafiq
Billah, what in the world are you talking about? The Bangladesh human rights focused group, Drishtipat, does not have an "Ahmadiya campaign" going on that I am aware of, and I am on it's Board of Directors. The organization highlights human rights abuses in Bangladesh, and started doing this during the last AL rule and continued on to the current BNP regime.

The Ahmadiya issue in Bangladesh is gross human rights abuse so there was a petition to GOB that many DP members signed and we cover the latest news in our website and publications. There is no campaign as such, rather the objective is to let Bangladeshis know about the Ahmadiya issue and raise awareness.

You have made some very preposterous statements here. Perhaps you are thinking of some other organization. Unless you can back up your statements with facts, don't make them. Your opinion on Ahmadiya persecution may not be the same as mine, and that's OK. But please don't slander people whom you probably don't know and when you have no idea what you are talking about.

btw the party that led the anti-Ahmadiya campaign was not Jamaat but one of the other smaller Islamic parties, so perhaps you were not aware of that either based on your quote. no matter.

To everyone else, sorry that we digressed but the original topic was rather boring. This tangent has now turned into slander so I'll stop unless billah wants to dig a bigger hole for himself.

cheers.

DIGGING!

Dear Rafique bhia:

Sorry to dig up this old thread to respond to you so late. I've been busy. I may have indeed been wrong in finding Anti-Bangladeshi support to dristipat campaign.

This is what threw me off:

This pronounced anti-Bangladeshi HARMJADA, named "Shitangsu Guha". He is claiming to support dristipat on your front page:

http://www.drishtipat.org/nuke/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=106

He is sponsoring dristipat, link here, See under "Event in New York, NY":

http://www.drishtipat.org/CheyeDekhoProject/fundraised2.html

Examples of Shitangsu's anti-bangladesh propaganda in international media:

http://desitalk.newsindia-times.com/2002/05/24/hill-top.html

http://asiapeace.org/acha/06-04-2003.htm

http://www.washtimes.com/world/20030825-091750-4006r.htm

http://www.hvk.org/articles/0803/243.html

http://www.hvk.org/articles/0903/5.html

http://www.weeklyholiday.net/271202/front.html

https://lists.resist.ca/pipermail/project-x/2003-October/004546.html

Shitangsu talking anti-bangladesh in New York:

http://www.queenstribune.com/anniversary2002/bangladesh.htm

Download Shitangsu's speech, full of blatant lies against Bangladesh, a true Banglades-hater's profile:

http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:I_6uTl7cR3IJ:www.unhchr.ch/minorities/statements/Sitangshu.doc+amarendra+roy,+switzerland&hl=en

And as for dristipat's non-partisanship, here's Shitangsu's Awami connection:

http://www.albd.org/indemnity/related.htm

Here's ****-angsu's support for Bush's war, which is denounced by majority of the intellectuals of the civilized world:

http://mukto-mona.com/Articles/current_issue/support_bush.htm

Shitangsu's organization, threatened to have India attack Bangladesh in a gathering in the UN plaza in May. You will find this report in Ittefaq, May 17, 2004. Check the link here:

http://www.ittefaq.com/ittefaq_apps/special.jsp?date=17052004


Above is just one example that made me think that anti-bangladeshis are involved with dristipat. Research on other members of dristipat have not been done. Other horizontal and vertical analysis such as:
- % of ethnicity of dristipat members, comparing to normal Bangladeshi demographic.
- % of supporters of non-bangladeshi and of Indian origin.
- % of members that are high profile campaigner in some sort of smear campaing against Bangladesh

have not been done due to time constraint.

From the outset, just checking out one name from your sponsors made me think that prominent anti-bangladeshis are involved here. I am afraid to check any further, in fear of what else I may find.
I hope you will understand. Please accept my apology for any wrong assesment of your cause or means.

Now, the question is: Are there more anti-Bangladeshis like this HARAMJADA ****-angsu involved with dristipat?
Thanks.

rafiq
August 18, 2004, 06:24 PM
Hi Billah:

Thanks for reminding me to look at this post. I am glad you went to the length you did here, and I actually would like to share your email with others at Drishtipat if that's OK with you. I think it is a fantastic post for many reasons, one being that Drishtipat can actually USE it to show how well-meaning intentions can sometimes lead to perceptions which are not correct. Probably a little bit of history is required here and then I will address your concern re: our sponsors and members. I will be brief as possible but if I have not addressed something major please let me know.

OK, first some history. Drishtipat (DP) was started by some "young" (always a relative word!) US-based activists who were outraged when Awami League mafia don Joynal Hazari had his henchmen beat up a brave journalist by the name of Tipu Sultan. Daily Star, Prothom Alo and others set up a fund in Dhaka and DP did a quick Internet based campaign for Tipu which raised $16,000. Tipu has never recovered fully and is forever scarred by what he went through. But he is alive and working and went on to be recognized by the CPJ (Center for Protection of Journalists).

So DP was branded as "anti-AL" by some Bangladeshis.

Fast forward to 2001 general elections in BD. After the elections, there was violence agaist Hindu and other religious minorities as they were identified witht the outgoing AL. The extent and motives were debated hotly by all. But the fact is organized violence did take place and we all read about some particularly horrifying incidences. DP was still in its early stages but with the help of many people in Dhaka such as Daily Star, etc, we confirmed what had happened in Annada Prashad and went about raising some money for about 30 families in that village. We raised about $30K through some programs, and this money has been used to rehab those people from a long term perspective such as buying land, etc.

Some Bangladeshis branded DP as "anti-BNP".

Now during this time a number of radical fundamentalist Hindu groups sought to take advantage of the unfortunate situation. HRCBM was one of them. None of these groups actually contributed a cent to help any victims, but rather they made a lot of noise. You may be referring to some of these people in your post.

So, are these people and DP one and the same thing? No they are not. The person you refer to above was never a DP member as far as I know. I read the 2 links you gave from the DP site but couldn't see his name anywhere. Did he contribute 50 bucks to the minority violence program? He may have (although I did not see his name). I know we didn't take money in the name of one or two really strange radical organizations, it is possible an individual may have donated and when Bangladeshis are sending in a check for a small amount, it really is not feasible to run a security check on them.

OK, after writing the above I went back to your links to see again if I could find a trace of this person SG (btw I don't know him and can't remember if I even knew of him back then). I see in your first link he is writing a comment to a news story that appears on our website. I invite you and all other readers here to re-read that and form (or re-form) your opinions. All he has done was post a comment asking why DP seemed to be "against" something he believed in, which was this OP conference in Toronto. DP was neither "for" or "against" it, we were printing some news. Internet browsers can come in and post comments if they want to, it does not mean they are running DP or are our sponsors. Mr. SG writes he supported our effort [to raise money]. I won't hold that against him, as I supported it as well. But what else he did or does is his business and really has nothing to do with DP since he is not a member/sponsor/organizer.

Btw just above his comment I read this disclaimer on the DP site:

"The comments are owned by the poster. We aren't responsible for their content."

I hope you will agree with the logic of what I just said. I trust your research on Mr. SG's positions are correct and did not read his other posts elsewhere, I was only concerned with your perception that somehow he is representing DP. He is not and never has.

Anyway, fast forward to the current. We remain a group of people working to make a difference in a small way in one area - rights abuses and violations. It is an extremely difficult and dangerous space. It means there will be a lot of misunderstandings and misperceptions. That goes with the territory. But there are many Bangladeshis who don't subscribe to race, religion and politics-based fundamentalism that is displayed by many in our home country from time to time. We continue to attract and grow with those people.

Now I remember spending some time in those days answering queries such as this (what are our intentions, etc), but haven't had to in a long time. We believe earlier misperceptions, if any, have been laid to rest because we are transparent and people can see the work and results for what it is.

I hope I have addressed your concerns. You can go to the DP site and read the "About Us" page for other Board Members - it will possibly save you a lot of time in research. Thanks again, Rafiq

Edited on, August 18, 2004, 11:33 PM GMT, by rafiq.

Edited on, August 18, 2004, 11:34 PM GMT, by rafiq.
Reason: typos

billah
August 18, 2004, 07:38 PM
Originally posted by rafiq
I actually would like to share your email with others at Drishtipat if that's OK with you.

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Please go ahead. I will contact you later on. Thanks.