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DJ Sahastra
August 9, 2004, 08:37 PM
Maybe as an outsider it is difficult for me to have the same feelings or optimism or desperation as the general member of BD community here.

Nonetheless, i do feel that BD cricket has taken many a steps backwards since it's inception.

When BD made it's debut in test cricket, i was overawed at their prowess. My impression was that a major cricketing nation is born, their second inning collapse being an exception.

I was impressed with Aminul Islam (Popular as "Bulbul" ?). Naimur Rehman and Habibul Bashar showed lot of promise. The team showed lot of substance. For 4 days, they were exemplary.

I had to wait really long for another exemplary performance by BD. That was the test when they lost agonisingly to Pakistan. The performance was exemplary nonetheless.

In between and beyond that, i have been observing a few of the players. And what i have to say is pretty disappointing.

The sole match-winner that i have seen in Bangladesh side till date is a certain gentleman by the name Alok Kapali. I had a rare chance to see him bat in SA world cup and i couldn't help saying "He is the guy". Unfortunately, for reasons beyond my understanding, he may have just played his last match. Interestingly, i didn't see enough flaws in his batting, though it was disappointing to see him let down his side so many times.

A few players who i believed, could've done outstandingly well for BD, are now gone.

Bulbul is history. I think BD should've perserved a little longer with him.

Alok Kapali is out.

Hannan Sarkar is another case. I have seen him play some quality innings against SL, Aussies and SA. It was quite intriguing that he failed against the mediocre attacks - Zimbabwe and Windies. More intriguing, he has been dropped.

But then i have seen many a voices on this forum call vociferously for their ouster, so i guess i am missing something. Or maybe, i was always looking at them from a different perspective than members out here. Maybe there are better talents than Hannan and Alok, and maybe there were better talents than Aminul when they were dropped.

Funny, cos i didn't see any. Not when Bulbul was dropped. Not when Hannan was out. Not when Kapali has been dropped. I hope that i am wrong. These players had their weaknesses and failings. But they needed support. Cos they had a class. And they had shown glimpses of that.

Mohd. Ashraful is the lone hope of so many members on this board for now. I sincerely hope he succeeds. Cos he is gonna have a huge burden on his shoulders.

Many a statistics will reveal that Bangladesh team has come a long way from it's inception. I for one beg to disagree. I think they have been taking steps backward.

And i don't think Mr. Whatmore has brought any progress. Sorry, and please don't take the strain of posting all of them statistics.

I base my views on what i see.

And i see a selection committee that doesn't know what to look into players, a coach who is unable to find out what's wrong, and a captain who is unable to lead by any example whatsoever.

samircreep
August 9, 2004, 09:40 PM
Hi.It's hard to corroborate or rebut your post since most of your observations are a bit vague. Nevertheless, I do agree with some of your ideas, namely that Bulbul should've been persisted with a bit longer and Hannan should not have been dropped.Alok's talent has never been dropped, but his present form is woeful and his current exclusion is actually well deserved.

But I really do not understand the your 'observation' of regression under Whatmore.Could you be a bit more specific?Nor is it very clear as to why you blame the selectors(i think Faruq is doing an excellent job), the captain (ya, his one day performances are lame, but I can't think of anyone better right now)or the players who have replaced the old crop (by your own argument, players who evince even a modicum of talent should be persisted with a bit more, and these youngsters definitely have talent.)

Comments from "outsiders" are definitely more than welcome, but do back them up with a little more analysis please.

chinaman
August 9, 2004, 10:42 PM
Nice observation from DJ Sahastra. Thanks a lot for sharing. I'll touch few points briefly.

Dropping by no means is the end of the world. It is similar to allow the batsmen some time away from the team to work on their weaknesses. Once dropped, they right away go to the High Performan Unit for refinement. HPU was set up relatively recently.

Ashraful was dropped. He was taken care of by the HPU manager R. McInnes. He is back in the team now.

Kapali is a very young man. 21 yrs old. Hannan is little older. We can't afford to loose them. At the same time we just can't play them when they are having problems without giving them the chance to rectify.

They will be back.

Whatmore did brought some progress. Our taienders are more stable than ever. Bowling department is way better than its composition. Fielding is a class act.

Failure of the upper order batsmen is something built-in for a new test nation who is yet to complete the rebuilding of its cricketing structure.

I believe cricket is heading in the right direction in Bangladesh. It would be unwise to expect magic from them right now. With the new generation at the horizon, consistent good fight is not far away.

Rubu
August 10, 2004, 12:01 AM
i was detouched from bd cricket when bulbul was dropped. but as long as i remember, other than the sole century on the debut match, he was lame for a long period of time, on both sides of the debut match innings. i could be wrong, but i don't think he really had too much he could offer.

i also missed the golder era of kapali. may be thats the reason i some times get surprised to see some forum member's pasion for kapali. but, i can garantee, dropping him at his point is the best thing that can happen to him. now, he has a chance to put himself togather and do justice to his talent. if we kept playing him like that, it would not only harm kapali, but also made our shaky middle order even worse. there are more than enough people on the selection panel who are willingly looking for a chance to put kapali back in the team. all kapali need to do is give them some excuse to do so.

for some reason, i'm not that much optimistic about hannan. i've a feeling that javed and nafis will do something so weird that we've to stop our never ending search for openers.

last but not least, if whatmore is not the right man for bd cricket, there is simply none.

rafiq
August 10, 2004, 12:47 AM
you have to realize that fans are fickle and only want whoever is in form and playing well. Technique and promise are somewhat further down the priority list than they should be. Many online fans also don't have a chance to watch most of the players in live matches (especially given our matches don't yet get a lot of coverage). So when you actually see the players you might be in for a shock. eg I had heard so much about Faisal Hossain tearing it up - but then I saw him play and don't know what the hoopla was about. Nafees Iqbal is another player I have never watched - so don't know the first thing about him other than he has had a couple of very big scores. Not making any excuses for fan ignorance, but sometimes that's all we have to go on.

akabir77
August 10, 2004, 11:43 AM
I don't know why people thinks we are going backwards??? I have been following cricket all my life sp BD cricket. Saw gangule play when he was 16. And from those days exp i know for sure there is a huge change. Those days we sat infront of the tv to see how many over can we survive and who can we stop making a 100. Now a days we sit infront of a pc to see wheather its our day and can we beat the other team. Those i noticed some time bd fans starts writing comments in the match foram like bd is as good as Aussi and then when we loose 4/5 wk they go to sleep but the truth is we are not there yet but we r moving forward. And dropping kapali i think was good for him as he will inshallah come back like ash and beat the hell out off every one :)

(Sorry for the typo if there is any)

[Edited on 10-8-2004 by akabir77]

fwullah
August 10, 2004, 01:02 PM
When Bangladesh played that inaugural test match, it was a perfect ODI team for Bangladesh at the time.

Then before the Multan Test in Pakistan, we just struggled with our players - Aminul Islam and Akram Khan, who were our most dependable batsman until that test match against India, suddenly started to perform lower than we expected. We had almost the same players, at least in the batting order, and yet we did miserably in the last Asian Test Championship against Pakistan and Sri Lanka. It was those test matches that had our previous selectors to drop both Aminul and Akram from the team, without noticing the fact that there was only one year left for the world cup, and started putting in lots of younger players to replace the experienced ones. None of us (in this forum) could realize the simple fact strongly enough to even remotely suggest that we'd have a chance to lose to Canada and Kenya in the world cup, even after watching our then 'A' team consisting of mostly the young national players lose to Kenya in Kenya. I guess that was our downfall - there just wasn't anybody coming up strongly - in the administration to predict the future, or even foresee some of it.

And in between all these happenings, we kinda lost everything. There were hopes - watching Alok Kapali, who I think is rightly dropped - you see, if Bangladesh was winning and winning, then poor performance of just one player would not have mattered. But since Bangladesh is losing, losing and losing, so it is always very easy to realize our own mistakes, and some of them are dropping Alok, Hannan and the rest.

However, dropping Hannan Sarkar is a bit harsh, but I must admit that Hannan Sarkar IS one of my favorite players, so I may be biased. So considering your opinion, and also just watching the scores of Hannan Sarkar against South Africa, Australia and Sri Lanka all in away matches, I would say that it was a bit unfair to drop Hannan. But still, if you'd remember, Hannan Sarkar had faced Pedro Collins, his nightmare-bowler during the recent WI test series, a few years before, and even then, he was a suspect against left arm pace bowlers. So, after all his good matches against South Africa/Australia, Hannan Sarkar still did not correct his mistake, to be precise, he didn't get the time or the chance to correct or even to think about his particular technical error. YOu'd also remember, Hannan Sarkar was the first victim of an ODI hat-trick off Chaminda Vaas?

Now about Whatmore - The results alone, stand a good chance of proving that Whatmore is a good coach, at least better than Mohsin Kamal. While we have 2 ODI wins and 1 draw test under Whatmore, it was 0 win under Mohsin Kamal. On BIG-result-wise, Whatmore is still a few points behind Greenidge, since Greenidge helped us to win against a BIG team - Pakistan, and Whatmore has still not done that, if you consider Zimbabwe (consisting of Streak, Grant Flower, Carlisle) a weak-team.

Piranha
August 10, 2004, 04:52 PM
Kapali is by no means gone. He will be back, rest assured.

Yes, Bulbul was dropped two years too early. Thats a mistake we've just gotta live with.

Other than that, I dont see the point of blaming the selectors or the coach. At the end of the day, it is the players who have to perform. And they seem to be unable to do so under pressure.

Until the day we learn to handle pressure, we will continue to struggle.

Imtiaz
August 10, 2004, 05:05 PM
Apart from Bulbul's 145 [ very creditable ] and his innings with Ashraful in Colombo, I am not sure what any of them has actually done against test playing sides.

On the whole, I agree with the team selection except I would have voted for Sarkar, notwithstanding his cluelessness against left arm in-swing. Given the paucity of talent, I would include him.

Who would I leave out ? Possibly one of Nafis or Aftab - not because I have anything against them. One is fine, two is one too many. A mixture of new talent and experience is more preferable. Of the two, I would possibly keep Nafis on account of his recent scores.

Sadly, I concur, hopefully, temporarily, with Kapali being dropped.

Bangladesh probably has not made great progress since the inaugrul test. The bowling, however, is definitely better. The groung fielding too. The batting has improved slightly but then we have recently only played Zimbabwe and the West Indies.

DJ Sahastra
August 10, 2004, 08:26 PM
I didn't say that BD has declined under Whatmore. I said that BD hasn't made any progress yet. This seems quite contrary to what most members think on this board and that is fine.

I am also not suggesting that Whatmore has to go. It's not even an option. If not Whatmore, then who?

But to take the point of progress under whatmore, let me say this: Bangladesh as a team is not expected to forever collapse around 100 runs or let opposition score more than 300 runs. There is something called as a logical progression. Your infrastructure grows, the level of competition heats up, talents show up in larger number and that will eventually do reflect on the national team. This is regardless of who is the national coach. So, if Bangladesh is showing more fight today (relatively), does it ever strike that it is also an expected thing.

The role or importance of a coach is often in how much the difference shows. For eg, if the logical progress of the team is supposed to get it at point A, and the team is at point B, then the difference in A and B is what the progress or decline has been made under that coach.

A country with as many people playing cricket as BD will always grow in stature and performance. If it doesn't, it will be an indicator to something very wrong, very very wrong.

The question to be asked is, if point A was the expected progress of BD team with or wthout Whatmore, and point B is where BD team stands today, do you see point B as greater than point A on the success line?

You may disagree, but i don't see that.

That should also explain the few steps backward. If the logical progress of BD team should have taken it to point B and it is at point A today, then point A falls way short of point B. Matches won or lost is not even a criteria here.

On the other issue of dropping Kapali, Hannan and ( Bulbul in past), each of them are different and need to be taken in perspective.

Bulbul's failure to make it back to the national side is an enigma to me. I really don't follow the BD domestic cricket. But i have good impression of him and feel he could've been around somewhat more. Maybe some more chances before closing his chapter.

Kapali getting dropped was very much expected. He had been woefully out of runs. My sole diappointment is, he was one guy who looked a real match-winner. This is not from what his stats say, but from the way i have seen him play. He seemed to have more shots and lessers flaws than many BD players i have seen. A disappointing end nonetheless.

A point here is also that his getting out after settling in seemed intriguing. Especially when he seemed quite at ease and with no visible discomfort. If he is mentally scrwed, he owns the blame. If he lacked proper counselling from the team management , captain and coach, they are to be blamed, cos that's what they are for.

Finally, Dave Whatmore may have all the good technology, experience and techniques, but he has to really show the difference. ot the petty differences that are of interest to statisticians, but a difference on par with the fat-packet that he is recieving.

It's a professions and results are an integral part, whichever way you look at it.

Haradhon
August 10, 2004, 08:27 PM
We made progress in fielding and bowling, and did not live up to the expectations in batting. Dropping Kapali was a good step and I hope he will recover like Ashraful. The Javed-Ashraful opening pair is going to be tested in England. I am not too optimistic about Nafees and Aftab. But one of them succeed, I would be happy. In every match we have had one out of our top 6 batsmen perform, and now we need to have 2 out of six perform. The performance of the lower order would help us draw some test matches just like the way we did in W'indies. But for ODIs they cannot provide the required run rate. So the Akram-Bulbul-Nannu ODI team delivered better than our current team. There is one factor we should consider: Nafees-Aftab's (or even Dhiman, Nadif) are better trained than their ancesters. I am hoping they will grow. The goal for ODIs should be steady 225+ score and for test 350+ per innings. At the end I want to believe that we are making progress.

Arnab
August 10, 2004, 08:36 PM
Finally, Dave Whatmore may have all the good technology, experience and techniques, but he has to really show the difference. ot the petty differences that are of interest to statisticians, but a difference on par with the fat-packet that he is recieving.

I did some statistical work on pre- and post-Whatmore era, and there have been significant, NOT petty, statistical differences made during his reign. For example, over the course of 21 ODI matches, we have managed to narrow the run gap between us and our opponents from 80 runs to 50 runs.

Now whether that difference is "on par" with his salary is debatable.

So, instead of being all vague about this, why don't you state, in numbers, what you wanted the team to have accomplished by now, for them to be "on par" with Dave's salary? Did you want them to win a certain number of matches? Did you want them to score a certain number of runs on average? Did you want them to restrict the opposition under a certain lower bound?

al Furqaan
August 10, 2004, 08:59 PM
first off i respect DJ's right to have his opinion, but i must say i am a tad bit offended (no need to apoligize, you are forgiven).

i think his/her line of thinking is flawed.

first off, he says he doesn't think that BD has "regressed", but consistantly claims that BD has "traveled backward." aren't these two things one and the same?

secondly, he claims that statistics will not convince him that BD has improved because improvement should not be judged based on how BD is doing now relative to the past, but rather on how BD is doing now relative to what was expected now. this depends on the sanity of the expectants. it is not wise to expect a rookie to captain a team...so why expect BD to start winning test matches as soon as they get status (and they did get status prematurely). if winning test matches was so easy, perhaps I and 10 of my friends who have never played cricket, should go to australia and expect to beat ponting and co. in a test. that is just how ludicrous the argument is.

DJ also asks that statistics not be provided to refute his theory.

statistics should be the deciding factor since numbers are objective. if they werent then why keep score in a cricket match, the game should just be decided on who batted better rather than on who actually scored more runs. but numbers are humanity's only way of objectively and unambiguosly measuring performances between two cricket teams.

with this being said the stats show BD has improved in tests since whatmore's arrival.

in odi, BD had improved based on the Zim and WI tours. ODI improvement, if existant, is marginal negligible even.

but overall, as a cricket team, to say that BD hasn't improved since inception is not only against international cricket opinion, but laughable as well.

[Edited on 11-8-2004 by al Furqaan]

[Edited on 11-8-2004 by al Furqaan]

[Edited on 11-8-2004 by al Furqaan]

Beamer
August 10, 2004, 09:41 PM
Looking at the topic objectively, one will certainly arrive at the conclusion that we haven't made much progress in the limited over version of the game. On ocassion, we have competed and fought hard but nothing notable to concretely suggest that we have turned a huge corner. But, in the longer version of the game ( tests ) the improvement is clearly noticable in the post-Whatmore era. I doubt if there is any room for argument with that statement.

Saying that, we still haven't learnt how to play five days worth of test matches. We still manage to botch one session in a given test match, a trend so suicidal that eventually seals our fate in that match irrespective of subsequent fightbacks. At the same time, we have dominated sessions, even days, in test matches only to lose out because of critical collapses at the most unfortunate times. We were on par with Pakistan in all the matches or even ahead some of the time. We battled Zimbabwe and West Indies on even terms as well. Those are signs of definite improvement. Before Whatmore arrived, we were losing tests within three days consistently. Sure we lost to England pretty bad at home. But that can happen to any team sometime. Playing BD in a test match is not a cakewalk for most of the teams anymore. That is a fact. To me, I would rather learn to play the longer version better than ODI's first. A good test team is usually a good one day team as well. Its taking a long time for us to learn the nuances and tricks of the limited over game. You can say that we haven't progressed that much in that version of the game. After all, we have played some ninety odd games and managed to come out on top only five times. Something is definitely wrong with that scenario.

So, have we taken a step backward? In tests, the answer is a definite NO. We have actually made huge strides. In ODI's , the answer is not as clear cut. I would say that we haven't made much progress or no progress.

DJ Sahastra
August 10, 2004, 10:30 PM
How about you telling me if Dave Whatmore has been able to accomplish in terms of team building, team performance and result?

How about "Has he been able to live up to the modest expctation of a BD fan when he joined the BD cricket?".

Please do go back and recall when Dave had joined and where you would've expected BD team to be today from that day, and let me know if you think it is:

a) To your satisfaction
b) Exceeded your expection
c) Hasn't lived up to your expectation.

We'll take it from there.

Rubu
August 10, 2004, 11:17 PM
DJ, so that fans had crazy expectation and dav could not meet it, its dav's fault?

*its not fans fault that they failed to measure the true quality of the team and the ability, and the time required to take it to world level?
*its not the player's fault that they could not learned very good what they were taught?
* its not player's fault that they keep making the same mistakes again and again?

but, its the coach's fault who is working his a$$ off trying to make a decent team out of a rumble? its also the selector's fault who can't find a tendulkar or lara or warne. wether these type of player is available or not, is irrelavent.

put your logic togather and stop putting

"uddor pindi budhor gharay"

akabir77
August 11, 2004, 08:44 AM
Originally posted by AgentSmith
DJ, so that fans had crazy expectation and dav could not meet it, its dav's fault?

*its not fans fault that they failed to measure the true quality of the team and the ability, and the time required to take it to world level?
*its not the player's fault that they could not learned very good what they were taught?
* its not player's fault that they keep making the same mistakes again and again?

but, its the coach's fault who is working his a$$ off trying to make a decent team out of a rumble? its also the selector's fault who can't find a tendulkar or lara or warne. wether these type of player is available or not, is irrelavent.

put your logic togather and stop putting

"uddor pindi budhor gharay"

All i can say is Agent Smith Bhai... La Jabab :great:

Arnab
August 11, 2004, 09:48 AM
Originally posted by DJ Sahastra
How about you telling me if Dave Whatmore has been able to accomplish in terms of team building, team performance and result?

How about "Has he been able to live up to the modest expctation of a BD fan when he joined the BD cricket?".

Please do go back and recall when Dave had joined and where you would've expected BD team to be today from that day, and let me know if you think it is:

a) To your satisfaction
b) Exceeded your expection
c) Hasn't lived up to your expectation.

We'll take it from there.

Why would ONLY MY OPINION about what Dav has done with team building, team performance and result MATTER?

My answer to your question is (a). And feel free to start a poll on this board to gauge what other fans think.

Now answer my questions from my previous post.

DJ Sahastra
August 11, 2004, 08:04 PM
Arnab,

You have probably raked in the statistics to conclusively prove that Bangladesh team has progressed; they are losing less badly as compared to before (Pre-Whatmore).

But then, when i watch the game of cricket, statistics is hardly what is at the back of my head.

I hope millions of BD fans back home do keep track of the statistics and realize that BD team is actually progressing and doing satisfactorily.

Now, to answer you on what i would've expected BD to be under whatmore, here is what i could sum up. It's an attempt in vain, but i'll go with it.

1. Authoritative and conclusive wins against teams like Canada, Scotland, HK, UAE etc everytime there is a match.

2. Wins, like 3 wins in every 5 matches atleast against teams like Kenya and Zimbabwe, if not more.

3. Playing against major teams:

a) Score of 150+ everytime, or atleast 90% of the time.

b) Score of 200+ atleast 50% of the times

c) score of 225+ atleast 30% of the time, or roughly 1 in every 3 matches.

d) Score of 250+ atleast 20% of the time, or atleast once every 5 matches.

e) Atleast a couple of wins in every 10 matches or so against these teams.

f) Should be in contention of the game till the mid-way of the second innings (atleast 25th over of the second innings) atleast 75% of the time.

f) Should be in contention of the game till the last 15 overs of the second innings atleast 50% of the time.

g) Atleast a couple of batsman with their averages in 30s and atleast a couple of regular bowlers with their averages in if not early then atleast mid-30s.

Zobair
August 11, 2004, 08:14 PM
DJ Shastra your expectations are very reasonable and believe me most fans have raised their expectations to a similar level. However all this is rise in expectations since the World Cup disaster is mainly due to the hard work that Whatmore put in to raise the game of the players and restore sanity. If Whatmore can not lead Bangladesh to the next level, then no one can. Unless you have some one in mind?

DJ Sahastra
August 11, 2004, 08:29 PM
Pompous,

I am not even suggesting remotely that Whatmore should go. Cos if not Whatmore, then who else? I have none in mind.

But then, i don't see a reason to commend him for what i see of the progress either. I don't understand why he should be immune to criticism or why people should not expect certain results out of him. Isn't the higher expectation of BD fans the reason why he and not some local coach from BD, who would be gladly doing the same job for maybe 1/10th of what Mr. Whatmore is getting, is the coach of BD national team?

Someone talked about Whatmore "working his ***" for the team. Good choice of words indeed, cos he surely doesn't know what working the *** means. Maybe he should see an average man toiling for 40 takas a day to understand what "working the ***" means.

In corporate world, people are appointed and paid fat sums, not for working their *** off, but for achieving certain goals, certain objectives and certains results. If any of it is not met, they have to face the music.

When a team fails to live up to the expectations, the captain is criticised. The team management is criticized. The selection committee is criticized.

I don't understand why or how Mr. Whatmore should be immune to criticisms.

Arnab
August 11, 2004, 09:03 PM
Hmmm....

3. Playing against major teams:

(NOT counting the two 25 over matches in Windies)

a) Score of 150+ everytime, or atleast 90% of the time.

Pre-Whatmore: 39 times in 62 matches, 62.90%

What DJ wishes: 90%. Comment: UNREALISTIC WISHING.

Post-Whatmore: 13 out of 19 matches, 68.42%. Comment: Some improvement.

b) Score of 200+ atleast 50% of the times:

Pre-Whatmore: 17 times out of 62 matches, 27.41%

What DJ wishes: 50%. Comment: UNREALISTIC WISHING

Post-Whatmore: 5 out of 19 matches, 26.31%. Comment: No improvement.

c) score of 225+ atleast 30% of the time, or roughly 1 in every 3 matches.

Pre-Whatmore: 7 out of 62 matches, 11.29%

What DJ wishes: 30%. Comment: UNREALISTIC WISHING

Post Whatmore: 3 out of 19 matches, 15.78%. Comment: Some improvement.

d) Score of 250+ atleast 20% of the time, or atleast once every 5 matches.

Pre-Whatmore: 4 times out of 62 matches, 6.4%

What DJ wishes: 20%. Comment: UNREALISTIC WISHING

Post-Whatmore: 0 out of 19 matches, 0%. Comment: No improvement. But too early to tell. Even one 250+ score would have touched the previous mark. And BD did score a 244 against Pak at Karachi.

e) Atleast a couple of wins in every 10 matches or so against these teams.

Pre-Whatmore: 1 win out of 62 matches. (against Pakistan, lucky win)

What DJ wishes: 2 win in every 10 matches. Comment: Somewhat unrealistic wishing.

Post-Whatmore: 1 win out of 19 matches.

Comment: I personally expect BD to win 1 out of every 10 matches for the next 15-20 matches.

f) and f): Hard to gather statistics.

g) Atleast a couple of batsman with their averages in 30s and atleast a couple of regular bowlers with their averages in if not early then atleast mid-30s.

Only one batter to fit the bill: Rana
Bowlers: Tapash Baisya, Tareq Aziz, and three or four more bowlers fit the criterion.

******

ADDENDUM:

But those are almost all wishful thinking about our batting. What were your expectations about our bowling, DJ?

[Edited on 12-8-2004 by Arnab]

[Edited on 12-8-2004 by Arnab]

insideedge
August 11, 2004, 09:36 PM
When Whatmore took over the charge of Sri Lanka, Sri Lanka were already a formidable force with more than 50 ODI victories and a few test victories under their belt. BD on the other hand is on a much more shaky ground. The players available to him in BD are not of the same strength as he had available with him when he was the incharge of Sri Lanka. Hence, Whatmore's achievements with the BD team will be limited by the abilities of the players he has at his disposal. The reason why he does not have players of the same calibre that he had elsewhere is not within his control.

Whatmore can only do what is in his control. Getting the best out of the available resources is within his control. Getting the available players to perform like the top teams will be unrealistic because the players available are not of that standard. A Coach's job is made easy when he has top class players available with him. For instance, the job of John Buchanan of Australia is much easier.Even Bob Woolmer's job is easier in comparison.Whatmore's job on the other hand is not at all enviable.

Looks like, getting the best out of the available players is also not an easy task because the players stubbornly refuse to learn from their mistakes and keep commiting the same mistakes again and again.Unless there is a paradigm shift in the attitude of the players, the progress will be only evolutionary and not revolutionary.

Once Whatmore is through with his experience of coaching BD, he will have a wealth of experience to draw on to write a definitive book on human resource management in BD. Useful that this book will be,this book will not have much use for John Buchanan and Bob Woolmer unless they too decide to take up the coaching assignment in BD.

DJ Sahastra
August 11, 2004, 10:43 PM
If my expectations of BD team crossing 150 mark 9 out of 10 times , or crossing 200 mark 50% of the times, is a wishful and unrealistic thinking, then i really don't have a realistic expectation.

So i am gonna spare you the effort of having to respond to "unrealistic" and "wishful" thoughts.

coolheels
August 11, 2004, 11:14 PM
Arnab feels that scoring above 200 runs, staying in the match till the last few overs, winning 20 percent of the matches against major teams etc. are all unrealistic targets for BD. Basically his contention is that hoping for BD to be competitive in ODI against major teams is unrealistic and wishful thinking.

In that case, what is the difference between BD and the teams that do not have ODI status e.g. Canada, Ireland,UAE etc.

Tintin
August 11, 2004, 11:42 PM
You must be having a timeframe for your expectations, DJ. Bangladesh wasn't meeting any of these targets when Whatmore took over. You can't expect BD to improve dramatically in four months. But if they still are not meeting it after, say 10 years, Whatmore is a bad coach.

So the timeframe must be somewhere in between. Unless you bring that too into consideration, this thread will keep going round and round.

[Edited on 12-8-2004 by Tintin]

chinaman
August 12, 2004, 04:38 AM
Let me try to summarize the expectation with some reality check. Of course the expectation has no limits. But with a bit touch of logic and reality, I think, we can define something out of the limitless expectation in the hope of a better understanding of where we stand now.

The ICC already formulated a target, perhaps the bottom line. In a speech (http://in.sports.yahoo.com/031111/137/29ao4.html) on November last year at Dhaka in the presence of ICC president Ehsan Mani, the ICC chief executive Malcolm Speed said,

"If they win a test or a one-day series over the next two years, we'll be fairly satisfied."

That comment alone defines our bottom line. So, by the end of year 2005, we must either

1. Win at least one test match, or
2. Win at least one ODI series (note series, not a match)

Of course, our target is higher than just that. But how high? More importantly, are we capable to do so?

In many sense, Whatmore's arrival heralds a new beginning for our cricket. Having already experienced the all-time highs and lows, he brought in a renewed hope. Unprecedented enthusiasm and hope reached new height when the ICC opened both its eye and pocket for us. High profile officials, coaches, support staffs along with drastic restructuring within the BCB and its branches, not to mention the ICC and ACC's assistance, sharply defined a period of new meaning.

More than a year later, we sit here to check and balance our hope, desperately hoping for hopes. Or is it that hapless?

Sure, there are some visible achievements in the form of win, draw and respectable showings. But we still fight the same loosing battle against the big guys.

Anyone could ask, what is the improvement then? Nothing much to cheer about, many would say without a blink.

Perhaps it is not wild for the fans to ask for magic. But here in banglacricket, the fans show remarkable restrain in terms of what to ask from the beleaguered team. They seem fairly satisfied with some respectable performance. But the question, nonetheless, remains, show me the progress.

The statistics do show some progress one way or another. The bowling department being one such visible area. Although, the total team scores show slight improvement, the scare of an upper order collapse remains the norm. The lower order batting is another shiny spot for the tigers. In fact, that is the only area where the improvement meets and even exceeds the expectation at times, for the fans to take the lone solace.

For stats, please take a look at other threads and cricinfo.

Cricinfo Yearly Stats For Test Matches (http://statserver.cricket.org/guru?sdb=team;team=BDESH;class=testteam;filter=adv anced;opposition=0;notopposition=0;homeaway=0;cont inent=0;country=0;notcountry=0;groundid=0;season=0 ;startdefault=2000-11-10;start=2000-11-10;decade=0;enddefault=2004-06-07;end=2004-06-07;tourneyid=0;finals=0;daynight=0;toss=0;schedule ddays=0;scheduledovers=0;innings=0;followon=0;resu lt=0;seriesresult=0;captainid=0;recent=;viewtype=y early;runslow=;runshigh=;wicketslow=;wicketshigh=; ballslow=;ballshigh=;bpo=0;overslow=;overshigh=;ba tevent=0;conclow=;conchigh=;takenlow=;takenhigh=;b allsbowledlow=;ballsbowledhigh=;bpobowled=;oversbo wledlow=;oversbowledhigh=;bowlevent=0;submit=1;.cg ifields=viewtype)
Cricinfo Yearly Stats For ODI Matches (http://statserver.cricket.org/guru?sdb=team;team=BDESH;class=oditeam;filter=adva nced;opposition=0;notopposition=0;homeaway=0;conti nent=0;country=0;notcountry=0;groundid=0;season=0; startdefault=1986-03-31;start=1986-03-31;decade=0;enddefault=2004-07-29;end=2004-07-29;tourneyid=0;finals=0;daynight=0;toss=0;schedule dovers=0;scheduleddays=0;innings=0;followon=0;resu lt=0;seriesresult=0;captainid=0;recent=;viewtype=y early;runslow=;runshigh=;wicketslow=;wicketshigh=; ballslow=;ballshigh=;bpo=0;overslow=;overshigh=;ba tevent=0;conclow=;conchigh=;takenlow=;takenhigh=;b allsbowledlow=;ballsbowledhigh=;bpobowled=;oversbo wledlow=;oversbowledhigh=;bowlevent=0;submit=1;.cg ifields=viewtype)

Bring back Minhazul Abedin for champions trophy (http://banglacricket.com/alochona/viewthread.php?tid=6700)
Post Asia Cup Performance Average (http://banglacricket.com/alochona/viewthread.php?tid=6660)
Increase/Decrease of Batsman's Batting AVG in ODIs (http://banglacricket.com/alochona/viewthread.php?tid=6742)
The Statistical Gap.... 185 against 234. The true gap is possibly 60 runs (http://banglacricket.com/alochona/viewthread.php?tid=6594)

It is true that our batsmen, in general, virtually rose from ashes in the absence of a solid cricketing culture. Without much academic help, they managed to reach the national level by their sheer talent, hard work and determination. Uncorrected technical flaws thus remain in their blood and gaps are readily apparent in their basics.

The top class opponents rarely struggle to exploit those weaknesses. Temporal short pitch bowling from England, slower deliveries from Zimbabwe and West Indies speak volumes.

While pacers injury is the rule, we suffered the most simply because we do not have the replacements. We still mourn for the loss of services from Sharif, Mashrafe and Talha. It is not to say that one player would turn the table always, but who doesn't know, one player does make all the difference in the world of cricket. How could we forget the likes of Inzamam, Flintoff, Streak and Sarwan taking the game away from us slowly but surely?

Probably the best way to define the progress, if any, is by not looking at the more visible "scorecards" but by evaluating the "reserve", which is even more complex than the traditional stats.

Let's try to understand what the reserve means. With a failing heart, a person may be able to walk around or even manage to do minor household works. Since the fuctional reserve of his heart is too limited to meet the rigors, running would be a hard ask for him. On the other hand, a healthy person enjoys the luxury of crawling, walking and running at will. A healthy state can not be achieved without restoring the depleted reserve.

Just before the arrival of Whatmore, we plummeted to an all-time low with an empty reserve. He identified the situation correctly and started at once to rebuild the reserve, player by player putting aside the more visible scorecards.

Statistics may not always show the real state of the reserve unless we take a closer look at the reserve itself. Unfortunately, this isn't easy either.

We have to take the stats and scorecards in the equation to define the reserve in a meaningful way. But unlike the traditional total score stats which reflect the performance better with a solid reserve, we need to customize the stats to expose that reserve. A healthy reserve calls for a better and consistent fights from the team.

Instead of asking for how high we can climb, I think, how long we can stay up before falling down would give a better picture of our progress. Once we manage to stay up longer and longer, the next step of climbing higher up would be a breeze.

How many times we scored below 75, 100 or 150 in ODI?
How many times we scored below 100 or 150 or 200 in one Test innings?
What is the average number of overs we manage to stay at the crease in both ODI and Test?
How many times we were not all out in ODI?
What the average number of wicket we loose at the 45th over and 50th over in ODI?
How many times we managed to take 10 wickets both in ODI and Test?

Yearly stats with comperative studies of the above filters may reflect the strength of our reserve. But, I'm neither a statistician nor an expert in cricket. My customization may thus be guilty of being incomplete and erroneous. Perhaps you could extend a hand?

At this time, I'd definitely expect a rising reserve. Anything less would be devastating.

[Edited on 8-12-2004 by chinaman]

Arnab
August 12, 2004, 09:52 AM
Originally posted by coolheels
Arnab feels that scoring above 200 runs, staying in the match till the last few overs, winning 20 percent of the matches against major teams etc. are all unrealistic targets for BD. Basically his contention is that hoping for BD to be competitive in ODI against major teams is unrealistic and wishful thinking.

In that case, what is the difference between BD and the teams that do not have ODI status e.g. Canada, Ireland,UAE etc.

No []. I didn't mention that "I feel that scoring above 200 runs, staying in the match till the last few overs, winning 20 percent of the matches against major teams etc. are all unrealistic targets for BD." You are making it sound as if I feel these goals will ALWAYS be unattainable. That's not true.

You don't even KNOW how I feel. Stop putting words in my mouth.

If my expectations of BD team crossing 150 mark 9 out of 10 times , or crossing 200 mark 50% of the times, is a wishful and unrealistic thinking, then i really don't have a realistic expectation.

So i am gonna spare you the effort of having to respond to "unrealistic" and "wishful" thoughts.

DJ, read Tintin's post. What's your timeframe? But you should know that your expectations are REALLY
"unrealistic" and "wishful", as far as past stats are concerned.

And you didn't answer my question about your expectation with the bowling.

[Edited on 12-8-2004 by Arnab]

[Edited on 14-8-2004 by pompous]

Imtiaz
August 13, 2004, 09:33 AM
I think DJ's wishes can be squared with Arnab's analysis if we leave emotions out of this.

As we concluded during the Asia Cup, the team's mean score is around 170-180. We were the bottom team in terms of batting amongst the 10 nations.

We were, conclusively, not the bottom side in the bowling department. We were in the middle.

If our bowlers are given about 220 to bowl against, I feel 10% matches will go our way. 230 -20% and after that you can increase the win percentage by 1% for each additional run [ I will leave the reliable Arnab to work out the stats. ] I am reasonably sure it would work out like something like that.

Effectively, DJ is making the same point. Where I feel he is mistaken, is that an improvement of the "bottom line" of 50 odd runs in the batting total will not be achieved so easily. Even then, we will win about 10% of matches. This is equivalent of increasing the batting average of the top six by at least 8 runs for each batsmen. I think the last 5 are batting as well as can be reasonably expected.

Surprisingly, an improvement of 8 runs per batsman only takes them upto the mid 20's - such is the standard of our current batting. I think only Javed Omar and Rajin Saleh might reach 30.00

I don't think tigers can change their stripes [ pardon the pun ] late in their life [ career]. This means that until the batting line-up changes with the inclusion of newcomers as they come in deservedly, I cannot see us regularly scoring 220+. I agree with DJ that unless this is achieved as a minimum, we will always struggle.

This, of course, presupposes that the bowling will perform, at the very least, at the same standard as now. So when Rafique goes, his replacement must be just as good.

Dav Whatmore as a coach is not the issue. He can only do as good as the talents he has available to him. The road ahead is steep.

But who knows ? Just two batsmen with an average of 40 can change the whole scenario.

Are Nafis, Aftab and co. them ?

[Edited on 13-8-2004 by Imtiaz]

Arnab
August 13, 2004, 12:32 PM
Imtiaz, I would say you are good at recycling the obvious. :)

I, on the other hand, am irked when I see "ultpalta" reasoning. It's not just DJ. They are so rife on this board that I don't feel like replying to all of them. I replied to DJ and you in a previous thread because I thought it was worth it.

Imtiaz
August 13, 2004, 04:54 PM
I came across a thread a few days ago here where everyone was introducing themselves. I quickly came to realise that I am by far the oldest in here.

One of the drawbacks of having "seen it all" is that you become utterly realistic. I know exactly what Bangladesh's chances are going into any match. I know my cricket. But, do I not fool myself the day before the match that something might happen ? You bet I do.

However, the flame of expectations does burn ! And, one day that flickering flame will turn into a bon-fire. I hope it is damn soon though !

al Furqaan
August 13, 2004, 11:44 PM
i must say i completely have to side with arnab here. it is understood that BD "sucked" before whatmore. as far as i understand, DJ, for some reason, thought that BD would magically improve OVERNIGHT.

arnab bhai is not saying that BD will never score 250 plus at a frequency of once in 5 matches. what he is saying is we CANNOT do it at the current time and in the forseeable future.

besides, the original debate was whether or not BD has improved, DJ thinks no, most ppl here think yes. the stats show BD has improved greatly in tests, and little if at all in ODIs. end of story.

i will not be posting in this thread again unless something extraordinary is said. there is no use in debating with someone who doesn't use logical arguments and uses circular reasoning to get nowhere. I don't even know what the debate is anymore other than BD's improvement or lack thereof.