PDA

View Full Version : Good write-up by Rabeed Imam


Sham
January 19, 2005, 01:54 AM
When everything fell in place

The Wisden Verdict by Rabeed Imam

January 19, 2005


The lack of patience from their batsmen has often been the bane of Bangladesh's cricket team. The closely fought Dhaka Test, where Bangladesh held out for a draw that ensured a historic series win, was also significant for the way their batsman batted out five sessions in the last two days. It signaled growing up.

It is easy to slam them their refusal to go for a win on the last day, but those who do so betray a lack of perspective and fail to grasp the context. It reeks of negativity to ignore what has been achieved rather than highlighting what hasn't. For Bangladesh, the primary goal was winning their first-ever Test series and their batsmen simply rose to that task in clinical fashion and secured a draw. Had they gone after those runs and capitulated, the same people who are now criticising their mental approach would have wasted no time in saying that the team lacked the temperament even to force a draw.

Here was a team that didn't know what it felt like to hold a series trophy until Tuesday and they couldn't care less about entertaining the rest of the world just for the sake of adventure. The script had been written when just 30-odd runs came in a dour pre-lunch session and although Habibul Bashar had the big-hitting Mashrafe Mortaza padded up to come in at No. 8, a charge for victory had been taken out of the equation the moment their second innings began.

But saving the game was itself a remarkable feat as even the most ardent of Bangladesh's fans would not have fancied them batting out 142 overs in just under five sessions to save the game. It also proved another theory for the series success their new found ability to handle the pressure. Bangladesh did not play as consistently as they would have liked in the two Tests but always lifted their game when it mattered. They were put under pressure from the start of the second Test but refused to give in even after conceding a 87-run first-innings deficit. Then when the tourists had set them a stiff target, Nafis Iqbal (121) and Javed Omar negotiated everything and saw off 87 overs. The normally attacking Iqbal's first Test hundred innings lasted 355 deliveries while Omar (43) spent four and a half hours at the crease. This sort of composure was unprecedented.

Throughout the series there has been a definite air of purpose and self-confidence in everything Bangladesh have done. Even when things were not happening for them, they were prepared to play the waiting game without losing the intensity. The source of that belief can be traced back to December 19 when Mohammad Ashraful set the example of defiance with that epic 158 not out on the third day of the second Test against India. That single innings appeared to clear the inhibitions in his team-mates and their confidence doubled after their first-ever home triumph in the second one-dayer against India on December 26.

Mortaza, whose return to the international scene after a career-threatening knee injury, played in the second game despite a sore back as his presence meant a lot to the team's morale. Mohammad Rafique endured a painful hamstring injury and took painkillers to play in the second Test. Enamul Haque Jr, who snapped up 18 wickets in the series, broke records at will. Just last year, Enamul, Nafis and Aftab Ahmed were representing the Bangladesh Under-19 side. They are now signifying the importance of youth in a growing Test team.

Zimbabwe, an even younger side, displayed exuberance, enthusiasm, and heart but could not match Bangladesh's collective effort. For the most part, it was a case of Tatenda Taibu v Bangladesh. Taibu's maturity and his age-defying calmness at the crease created quite an impression on and off the field. Unfortunately, he often found himself playing the lone hand coming in with three or four of the top-order batsmen back in the pavilion. He scored over 300 in the series but the next highest run-getter didn't even manage 200. And then he had try and get out of a mediocre bowling attack that did not have the experience and variety of their Bangladesh counterparts.

This was one series Zimbabwe could ill-afford to lose. For obvious yet unconvincing reasons, Zimbabwe has even a lesser number of sympathisers in the international media than Bangladesh. In many ways both teams are walking the same line but the hawks will surely be out to pounce on the Africans especially after this series loss. Bangladesh for the time being, have no such problems and can reflect on a satisfying couple of weeks when everything fell into place for them.

Cricinfo

Hasib
January 19, 2005, 02:09 AM
Yeah!!! Rabeed Imam Strikes back!!!



t is easy to slam them their refusal to go for a win on the last day, but those who do so betray a lack of perspective and fail to grasp the context. It reeks of negativity to ignore what has been achieved rather than highlighting what hasn't.


and


Had they gone after those runs and capitulated, the same people who are now criticising their mental approach would have wasted no time in saying that the team lacked the temperament even to force a draw.


This goes against the comments made by Rahul Bhatia!!! :great::bravo:





Edited on, January 19, 2005, 7:12 AM GMT, by Hasib.

Andrewwisden
January 19, 2005, 02:39 AM
Hear hear! Congratulations to Bangladesh. As Dav was misquoted as saying, this result actually proves more to me than the win.

And hello forum. This is my first post, but hopefully it won't be my last!

Mridul
January 19, 2005, 02:49 AM
Welcome Andrewwisden

Tiger till I die
January 19, 2005, 03:11 AM
Hello Andrewwisden, are you THE Andrew Miller of wisden? Bravo man...........welcome to the forum.....you are one of our favourites man

Andrewwisden
January 19, 2005, 03:29 AM
Yep, the one and the same ... pleased to be on board at last. Been following the series with interest from afar.

Congratulations for the scope of this site, by the way. It's really taken off in the past year.

Nasif
January 19, 2005, 03:30 AM
Welcome to BanglaCricket Andrew. We are pleased to have you among us.

Blah
January 19, 2005, 03:36 AM
http://www.cricinfo.com.pk/wisden/columnists.html#ENGLISH

Thursday - Andrew Miller - English View
Andrew Miller joined Wisden Online when it was set up, and soon graduated from put-upon photocopier to a writer with a penchant for comment and cricket on the subcontinent. He has covered England tours in Pakistan and Sri Lanka ... and Bangladesh, where one local website dubbed him "the Father of Bangladesh cricket".

------------------------------------------

Welcome to BanglaCricket Andrew ;)

Blah:flag:

Andrewwisden
January 19, 2005, 03:43 AM
Ha! Well, I didn't write that biog, I assure you!

Andrewwisden
January 19, 2005, 03:43 AM
Ha! Well, I didn't write that biog, I assure you!

Tiger till I die
January 19, 2005, 03:51 AM
Andrew........do u agree with Rabeed's views in this article? About BD not going for the win

Andrewwisden
January 19, 2005, 03:59 AM
wholeheartedly. They were chasing 374, for goodness sake! Regardless of what sort of start a side gets, you cannot throw away a maiden series win by trying to play the hero.

if successful, it would have been the fourth-highest chase of all time. A ridiculous notion, in the circumstances!

Tiger till I die
January 19, 2005, 04:15 AM
what are your memories of Bangladesh? Is Bangladesh becoming a more important part of Wisden CricInfo's scheme of things these days because we are seeing a lot more focus on the Tigers on the website

ZaKi
January 19, 2005, 04:18 AM
Rabeed Imam scored SIX by hook of Rahul Bhatia's Bouncer.... :great:

Andrewwisden
January 19, 2005, 04:32 AM
Well, my opinion all along was that I thought Bangladesh was promoted to Test status too soon, but now that they are at that level, they need to be encouraged every step of the way, because the teething troubles will only go away if they receive the backing they need.

I have extremely fond memories of the country - it remains the most enjoyable tour that I have been on, because the enthusiasm of the crowds was second-to-none, and the welcome I received was amazing, wherever I went.

That much alone convinced me that the country has a big future in the game, although quite when that future kicks in, I don't yet know. The cricketing infrastructure, as I commented at the time, was pretty appalling (and I know several people weren't very grateful for me saying so!) But by all accounts, the Under-19 World Cup was a big step in the right direction, and this win equally so ... although I'd be pleasantly surprised if Bangladesh pull off any more victories in the near future. The gulf at present is just too great.

As for Cricinfo's coverage ... well, it remains hit and miss, I accept that! But we are trying to give a fair share of the focus to all ten Test countries, and Rabeed, whom I met in Dhaka last year, is doing a sterling job in promoting your points of view.

Tiger till I die
January 19, 2005, 04:41 AM
very well said...we should not not lose our focus which is to improve all the time and should not start believing that the Tigers will win Test matches regularly from now on. How did you unearth Rabeed? How old is he?

Zobair
January 19, 2005, 04:52 AM
Well! you tell 'em Mr. Imam :) And welcome Andrew...you should do a search on your name on this forum. You have got quite a fan-following on this site :)

Andrewwisden
January 19, 2005, 04:59 AM
Haha! Done just that ... and the first entry I came across was this:

"Andrew Miller was writing crap about BD only a year ago and I sent at least half a dozen email. I don't know whether he read them or not. But he stopped writing garbage about BD."

But I appreciate your sentiments nonetheless!

And yes, I do read all feedback, good and not-so-good ... :)

shovon13
January 19, 2005, 05:23 AM
hahahaha

never mind that andrew, we bangladeshis can be quite sentimental with our team. awesome to have you with us!
but yes, i do agree our infrastructure needs to be worked on extensively. the sole reason behind australia's current success is their infrastructure. but i think these recent successes will encourage our government to fund the board on this matter. cant wait till BD becomes a force to be reckoned with..

Andrewwisden
January 19, 2005, 05:47 AM
Absolutely! No offence taken. After all, we journalists spent our lives picking holes in players and teams that are infinitely more talented than we'll ever be. It's only fair that we take our licks as well!

Hasib
January 19, 2005, 08:27 AM
Welcome Andrew to the board... I'm pleased that you consider the Bangladesh tour your most enjoyable one. Good on yah. Oh yeah... thanks for doing up most of the discriptions of our players in the profiles.

rafiq
January 19, 2005, 09:29 AM
Come on guys - the "white man/Indian" conspiracy machine at least allowed our very own Rabeed Islam to write the Wisden Verdict - how would you have felt if they had assigned Arun Lal to do the honors?

Andrew Miller - it's great to have a sports writer of your calibre on board!

Arnab
January 19, 2005, 09:38 AM
Rafiq bhai, I have seen you do this way too many times now. Rabeed Imam not Islam.

rafiq
January 19, 2005, 09:54 AM
oops sorry!

Andrewwisden
January 19, 2005, 11:14 AM
Pleasure rafiq, and thanks for the welcome - I hope it's justified!

dunno what to say about the "white man/indian" conspiracy really ... except we are aware of the criticism and try to get the balance right.

Matters of personal opinion shouldn't be assumed to be matters of policy though!

Ahmed_B
January 19, 2005, 11:16 AM
"For obvious yet unconvincing reasons, Zimbabwe has even a lesser number of sympathisers in the international media than Bangladesh. In many ways both teams are walking the same line but the hawks will surely be out to pounce on the Africans especially after this series loss...."
-RI

This man presents it so well... designating the hardliner-critics as HAWKS...
Teams on the fringe of test-arena are having to deal with two opponents all the time... one is who they are playing with.. and the other are the CRITICS.. who are always hovering overhead..

Pretty unpleasent situation I must say! :(

chinaman
January 19, 2005, 11:55 AM
Welcome to banglacricket, Andrewwisden. It's a pleasant surprise to have you with us. Like the Tigers, we are still not a well-developed site just yet, but, we are no less passionate about cricket, particularly our cricket. Your presence is a huge testament to that, I guess. :)

Hope you'll like our company and pay visits more often.

Huda
January 19, 2005, 12:10 PM
Hi andrew, welcoem to our site.

i was wondering how you compare and especially the english crikceting media, our sla's rafique and enamul junior to giles? i think rafique is the best sla in the world at the moment, but doesnt get the world wide credit due to being from bangladesh

Sham
January 19, 2005, 12:14 PM
Good to have you. Hope you are enjoying your time in SA.

I was told by a friend that he met you in Dhaka through Mr Afsan Choudhury, who I had the misfortune to have to work under, or intern for rather while he was still at the Daily Star. Quite a character.

Anyway, you are right about our infrastructure. I have been harping on about a proper, structured First Class league for a while now. Actually, a lot of us have. I still don't understand why the BCB feels that they need to toy with it each and every year. Our players can't be expected to perform in Test cricket with no first class experience. In the Chittagong test against India, Nazmul made his Test as well as first class debut. Its just ridiculous. And its not the first time that has happened either. Anyway, I'll save my sermon for another day.

I'll hopefully be in attendance at a few of the Bangladesh matches in England in the summer, so if you are around, I'll try to catch up with you for a chat. Meanwhile, enjoy your time on the board!

zaphod
January 19, 2005, 01:54 PM
Hey guys....new to this board. But just as a cricket lover.....read cricket stuff when i get the chance. To start of with, I do not know even a single BD players name..so what I am saying is from a very general perspective...which many a times is better since it is not biased. The article by Rabeed Imam is a decent writeup but is not totally balanced. It talks about the hawks...but does not touch upon what the hawks say. i believe, the reason the rest of the world is not ready to recognize the BD victory as big as BD claims is simply because it was expected that BD win in this series. The fact that it was as good as a Zimbabwe A team which came, the onus was on BD to win. Afterall, if BD could not win against this team then which team could they win against ? That was the attitude and that is the reason why this victory is a 'no biggie' . Infact as someone else (an impartial bangladesi ) in this forum pointed out after the 1st test victory, unless BD won the final test too, it doesnt prove much in terms of how improved the BD team is. A victory is still a victory and so the BD team has every right to use it as a source of encouragement. But it would be wrong on the BD fans to expect anything other than a 'ok' from the other cricketing nations...simply because the other nations are judging it at a different level. Its like the first ranker in a class is least impressed or even bothered when a 30th ranker jumps to being a 28th ranker. Whereas for the 30th ranker, it is a positive step.

So my point is, the so called 'hawks' as defined by rabeed are hawks but that is because, they are currently flying at a different level and not necessarily because they have an attitude problem. And so what I feel is that instead of calling them hawks and dismissing them, it would be better if the BD team takes an impartial look at what they say and then judge them. Because, as i said earlier, it would be a fallacy to think that by this victory, BD is now justifying its test status. Without trying to be insulting....Remember..an A team made BD fight for a draw. So there is much to learn. And by ignoring the 'hawks', the BD team might land up only ignoring certain issues which would only help them to learn to fly.

So while the article by Rabeed is journalistically decent, it is immature in that, it looks to be more from an ardent BD fan rather than a complete analysis.

And as far as the match in concern, I guess, it is ajudgement call as to whether or not BD did the right thing. if somone says that BD took a negative approach, that only suggests that they believe that BD had the capability to win and they threw it away because of the lack of positive approach. And you have the flip side of it being a very challenging total. So no point in trying to prove which is right...its cannot be proved

AsifTheManRahman
January 19, 2005, 02:06 PM
hmm...

"But it would be wrong on the BD fans to expect anything other than a 'ok' from the other cricketing nations..."

most ppl on this board would be ok with that too. however, what we're not ok with is ppl trying to demean our performance.

saying our win was "expected" and trying to find ways to prove it was faulty are different things.

As for the accusation that an A team made us earn a draw - well, one should remember that this a Zimbabwean A side, not a Scottish or Canadian A side. The zimbabweans are way ahead of us in terms of cricketing abilities, and their A team, although weaker than the national team, is capable of beating the hell out of any associate.

The article by Rabeed Imam may be biased, but we've had many an article with not only negative but also unfair comments about us, and it is only fair if someone comes up with the positives of BD cricket once in a while. We beat the Zims by 226 runs in the first test, mind you. That was a considerable victory - we did not just barely scrape through.

Welcome to BanglaCricket

Edited on, January 19, 2005, 7:08 PM GMT, by AsifTheManRahman.

ZunaidH
January 19, 2005, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by Andrewwisden
Well, my opinion all along was that I thought Bangladesh was promoted to Test status too soon, but now that they are at that level, they need to be encouraged every step of the way, because the teething troubles will only go away if they receive the backing they need.

I have extremely fond memories of the country - it remains the most enjoyable tour that I have been on, because the enthusiasm of the crowds was second-to-none, and the welcome I received was amazing, wherever I went.


As for Cricinfo's coverage ... well, it remains hit and miss, I accept that! But we are trying to give a fair share of the focus to all ten Test countries, and Rabeed, whom I met in Dhaka last year, is doing a sterling job in promoting your points of view.


Andrew;

Good to see you here. I am one of those people who launched heavy duty complaints against your write-ups in cricinfo when you were covering the England tour in 2003.

I am of the opinion that Bangladesh should have been fast tracked for test cricket a decade ago with ICC help. Bangladesh is an odd ball case. If we don't have money, kids won't take up cricket as a profession. Test cricket was the only way to achieve that. I would agree, game wise Bangladesh was far behind the standards at inititation. Now that all should be history. And for you, I offer truce! No more hard feeling.

pagol-chagol
January 19, 2005, 02:19 PM
Welcome Andrew. I remember your articles when you visited with England. The piece on the park was so vivid. Do you write outside of cricket?

Navarene
January 19, 2005, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by zaphod
....read cricket stuff when i get the chance......I do not know even a single BD players name..
You really read cricket stuffs? oh how sweet:)

pagol-chagol
January 19, 2005, 02:20 PM
Rabeed Imam, whats your username here.

Nice article.

You seem to have picked up our voice here.

Tiger till I die
January 19, 2005, 02:29 PM
I think Zaphod misses Rabeed's point entirely.Rabeed was referring to Zimbabwe's cricket when he used the 'hawk' word. Besides, nowhere in that article was any plea to the rest of the world to give our series win the credit it deserved. What he said was Bangladesh had their very own goals and they achieved that. And aanother thing. This is Zimbabwe not Zimbabwe A or Zim Colts or Zim schoolboys. People should start accepting the fact that this predominantly black side is the future of Zimbabwe and should respect them for that. And without ever seeing any BD player or any BD game, Zaphod should not be commenting on any aspect of BD cricket either. If he wants to act wise, he should do the groundwork first and that involves a bit more than just looking at the scorecards.

reverse_swing
January 19, 2005, 02:30 PM
who is this Zaphod?

shujan
January 19, 2005, 02:31 PM
Welcome zephod! Very sensible and neutral analysis.

In the aftermath of the draw couple of questions rises:

1) Will these victory put pressure on the other oppostion like Pakistan, West Indies and India when they play test against us?

2) In ICC rating West Indies rating is just above Zimbabwe. Zimbabwe has 42 in 9th, West Indies has 73 in 8th and Bangladesh has 6 in 10th. Question is Can Bangladesh win a test against West Indies like Zimbabwe?

3) Beilieve it or not above West Indies it is New Zealand with 93 in 7th. What is the outcome of Bangladesh VS New Zealand recent test ?

4) Can Bangladesh get a draw in next series against England?

5) Can Bangladesh get a draw or win in test against the 9 test nation beside Zimbabwe?

6) Bagladesh survived 5 sessions with Hondo, Chigumbura and Penyangara. Will they survive 3 sessions against Flintoff and Hermison?






Edited on, January 19, 2005, 7:41 PM GMT, by shujan.

DJ Sahastra
January 19, 2005, 03:06 PM
Hi Andrew,

Nice to see you on this board. There are too many complaints against Cricinfo in general and your brief presence or involvement might help address a few, if not all of them.

My observation about this board, and BD fans in general, has been quite a revelation. For long i thought Indian and Pakistanis were teh most passionate of the fans, followed by daylight, moonlight, and then the rest. Now i can say that BD fans are the most passionate, followed by the daylight, the moonlight, the seven-seas and then the Indo-Pak fans.

These fans are the craziest, and that is a compliment by all means.

I have also found that it is very difficult to be objective or dispassionate in analysing any game involving the BD team. There is a conflict between choosing to be condescending or drawing the fans ire. Any objective, dispassionate analysis has the potential ingredients for bordering on touching the not-so-happy nerves among this crazy-crazy fans.

I am very happy to see Rabeed Imam write the articles defending the BD teams strategy to play for a draw, and will be very happy to see him and him alone, or some BD writer/journalist to write the article featuring BD cricket. I would like the Rahul Bhatias and Andrew Millers and other non-Bangladeshis to keep their hands off. For one, a vast majority of BD fans and very few non-BD fans read articles about BD cricket, and it does make sense to write any article/comment from the perspective of BD fans rather than a neutral perspective. And that perspective is, as i have learnt from this forum overtime, very different from the perspective in which the rest of the world or cricketing nation are going to see it. In fact, it's only fair that BD writers/journalists do the post-match write-up for the BD team.

It would be unfair if i ended it this way, so i'll mention this too. What Rahul Bhatia wrote as the post-match comment is EXACTLY what i felt at the end of the second test. I felt that chasing 276 on the last day againt the kind of attack that Zimbabwe side had presented was do-able. Atleast i had expected an effort to reach that and if 1-2 wickets had faleln early on, i would've expected the BD batsman to fall to a contingency "B" plan of playing for a draw.

Indeed, if BD were 1 or 2 wickets down on day-4, i would've rooted for them to play out day-5 for a draw. Just maybe. This is because i have seen that BD team has fairly reasonable batting all the way upto #10. Yes, 374 was a big target, and yes, it would've been the 4th biggest chase ever in the history. But then, yes, BD team had only 276 to get after wiping out the 98 runs deficit without any damage. And yes, in all my conscience, i have always hoped for BD cricket doing well and i don't think there was anything positive in NOT trying even before any signs of any danger.

The decision to whether to go or not go for a win shouldn't be judged by the history or statistics, but by the match situation alone. Else, a weak and feeble WI team down 0-4 in the series wouldn't have been able to chase 410+ runs against the mighty Aussies.

It is obvious that the perspectives differ. The goals and objectives set by BD team and BD-fans for their team is different from what the rest, or most of the rest, of the cricketing fraternity might want to see. Therein lies the gap and the complaint of negativity and unfair-criticism.

It is indeed not so easy to be a well-wisher of the BD team without banking on condescension and maybe that is what makes it more challenging. And enjoyable, if you are not scared away :)

shujan
January 19, 2005, 03:27 PM
Hello Andrew,

Welcome to the site. I like reading cricinfo articles favorable or not. I congratulate constructive criticism which is based on the merit of the game . I am not worried about my feelings. I am a fanatic of Bangladesh cricket. It is hard to please me with accolade of Bangladesh cricket. It is important that our cricketers see the alternative routes and shortcomings. Like reading your articles.

Arnab
January 19, 2005, 03:31 PM
Indeed, if BD were 1 or 2 wickets down on day-4, i would've rooted for them to play out day-5 for a draw. Just maybe. This is because i have seen that BD team has fairly reasonable batting all the way upto #10. Yes, 374 was a big target, and yes, it would've been the 4th biggest chase ever in the history. But then, yes, BD team had only 276 to get after wiping out the 98 runs deficit without any damage. And yes, in all my conscience, i have always hoped for BD cricket doing well and i don't think there was anything positive in NOT trying even before any signs of any danger.

The decision to whether to go or not go for a win shouldn't be judged by the history or statistics, but by the match situation alone. Else, a weak and feeble WI team down 0-4 in the series wouldn't have been able to chase 410+ runs against the mighty Aussies.


I am sorry DJ, but I cannot agree with your points, even if I try my best to look at it from a neutral POV.

Here are your premises for WHY BD would have made it:

1. BD team has fairly reasonable batting all the way upto #10.

2. The decision to whether to go or not go for a win shouldn't be judged by the history or statistics, but by the match situation alone.

3. A weak and feeble WI team down 0-4 in the series wouldn't have been able to chase 410+ runs against the mighty Aussies.

******

I strongly reject your premise #2. As a collective unit of players, BD does have a history in these situations, and it would be absolutely foolish to not consider the possible outcome in the context of that history.

The "fairly reasonable" qualifier is too vague especially for a target of 274. You are completely snuffing out the CONSISTENTLY FICKLE nature of BD batting. Yes, individual players might have done well in different tests in different positions all the way up to #10, but given the situation of 374+ to win, it's absolutely wishful thinking that everyone (or even a majority of them) will click at the same time.

As for the Windies example, you are using an exceptional example as some general rule. What Windies has done is absolutely exceptional, something that hasn't been in 3 decades. And to pin the thrust your argument on that exceptional example is a fallacy.

Edited on, January 19, 2005, 8:31 PM GMT, by Arnab.

shujan
January 19, 2005, 03:41 PM
If I might add couple of points. In my 2 cents Bangladesh draw was confirmed because of first innings collapse. 211 total is horrible. Second inning batting strategy was influenced by first innings collapse. The only good innings we had is the first innings of first test..

DJ Sahastra
January 19, 2005, 03:57 PM
Arnab,

If it was an India-Australia series with everything the same, and if India had played the way BD has and settled for a draw, i would've been so upset i would've refused to watch any India-match for quite sometime, would've asked for Saurav's and John Wright's heads to roll and would've cursed the whole team.

Maybe that defines the negative aspect of our passion and how we see the game.

It maybe unfair to see BD from same perspective, but then i have no better example to give you. You put any two teams above and my end result would be the same.

Commendable as it is, the logic of not trying before giving up fails me. But then, i have started to understand the perspective of BD-fans and lot of it is reasonable and logical.

AsifTheManRahman
January 19, 2005, 04:01 PM
well, frankly speaking, i too was disappointed because we didn't go for the win. however, what bothers me are the froeign media's constant efforts to find flaws in everything we do.

shujan
January 19, 2005, 04:04 PM
Personally I was disappointed that they didn't play for win. I would feel better if they tried. They didn't even try. Anyway its over now. Lets Look to the future.

reverse_swing
January 19, 2005, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by shujan
I would feel better if they tried. They didn't even try.

spot on.

cluster11
January 19, 2005, 04:19 PM
DJ Shastras response to Arnab seems emotional, i.e. he is explaining how he "feels" as oppose to being objective. Now lets see objectively how his argumetns fair. He gave 3 points and he said not to look at history but at the context of THIS game. So here are my OBJECTIVE responses:

1. BD team has fairly reasonable batting all the way upto #10.
- ONLY 4 players: Nafis, Rajin, Golla and Rafique have so far been successful in the 2nd test and Rafique was injured. A captain has to decide based on the CURRENT match situation so this argument doesn't hold. The situation was very clear when soon after lunch Golla, Bashar and Ashraful were back in the pavillion. Its suicide to attempt a win from that point on.

2. The decision to whether to go or not go for a win shouldn't be judged by the history or statistics, but by the match situation alone.
- BD scored 211 in the 1st innings, much lower than both Zimbabwe iinings. In fact if they had not scored so low the target would not be this big! THAT is the context, not history.

3. A weak and feeble WI team down 0-4 in the series wouldn't have been able to chase 410+ runs against the mighty Aussies.
- Now you are going out of scope and pulling other stats which is contradicting your #2 argument. Besides others have already shown less than 5% of such attempts were ever successful. So this is not even worth considering.

As an individual of course everyone has their own perspective and DJ Shastra has shown quiet well his is an emotional one. But established columnists shouldn't follow the same line of logic. That's my 2 cents to the topic.

pagol-chagol
January 19, 2005, 04:25 PM
[i] as Beamer said in another thread[i]
I really think that they were moving along a pre-set plan, which was to survive till lunch without any wkts.

They almost accomplished it with Javed falling before the stroke of the lunch. Their next plan was to accelerate in the post lunch session and asses the situation from there on. Nafis, immediately after lunch stepped out and hit Cremer for a four and few runs in the middle. Then, Shumon played in the air and got himself out. Good bowling by Panyangara during those critical moments. He dried the runs out. They bowled a lot of balls on the leg stump with a field set for it. Shumon, never could break free and got out after playing 29 balls.

Then, Ash came, scored 3 of 3 and got out to a great delivery. Change of plans after that. They did the right thing from then on and made sure no wkts fell. Runs dried up as well.

After tea, losing Nafis and Aftab immediately had to put a stop to any more adventures. Case closed. From then on, it was all about making sure we get a draw. I do not believe that we played for a draw. Our intention after lunch was clear but circumstances prohibited the following proceddings...


Arnab, I think your stat collection on the history of chasing would be something you might want to cut and paste here.

Another appropriate stat would be how much lower our average run is in the second innings compared to the first innings.

At first, I saw that most of the Bangladeshis weren't happy with the draw. The Bangladeshis avid followers of cricket were, however. I concluded, its probably the lack of knowledge on cricket. Now, it seems that the people on the other side of the spectrum, the non Bangladeshi cricket lovers, have a similar point of view.

I think you really have to be a long term follower of Bangladesh Cricket Team to understand the magnitude of this epic draw. This was bigger than a win in many ways.

pagol-chagol
January 19, 2005, 04:38 PM
Killing inner demon is one of the hardest thing to do. When you kill your inner demon, only you could see or may be the people who are really close to you see. People around you usually look at your stat.

DJ Sahastra
January 19, 2005, 05:19 PM
Cluster,

I hate it when people start dragging and deciphering a part of the write-up instead of trying to understand the collective post.

When i said "BD team has fairly reasonable batting all the way upto #10", i meant "BD team has fairly reasonable batting all the way upto #10". It was based on my observation of the BD players and not on how well they have played in the first inning or what is their average. It was a statement based on MY observation and if you want to counter that with stats, averages, scores, feel free to do so. I am not even gonna try and defend that.

When i said "The decision to whether to go or not go for a win shouldn't be judged by the history or statistics, but by the match situation alone.", i meant "The decision to whether to go or not go for a win shouldn't be judged by the history or statistics, but by the match situation alone.". It was a sattement on the match situation which at that point read 276 to score in 3 sessions with 10 wickets in hand. What happened in the first inning was irrelevant. The only question to ask was, how difficult is it to achieve and should we try to achieve it. The statistical data like only 3 times has that been achieved before, we got all out for 211 in teh first inning, Hondo took 6 wickets in the first inning etc. are really not so encouraging attitude or mindset. Not to me. That is why i said that we surely have a difference of perception, and i am willing to respect that.

The West-Indies example was not to stress on the exceptional result but on the approach. If they had let teh same thoughts like "It hasn't been achieved before", "We are doomed against the Aussie bowlers", "We are pathetic losers, already 0-4 down in the series", i am sure the result would've been different.

I think it was a golden opportunity to bury too many a ghosts of the past for BD team. I am not saying that a win should've been tried at all cost. All i am saying is that the 5th morning, both the batsman should've come out with the instruction to play percentage shots, if not atacking ones.

The task of justifying the play for the draw should be left for the future generation, like we try to justify many a pathetic innings by teh Indian team by trying to quote the context. But for those who observe it, the true value or justification is in what their impression was of the match.

I was disappointed to see BD not win from the position of strength, more disappointed to see them not trying for a win, and that is an impression. And i agree that the impression could be because i don't share the same perspective as the more knowledgeable BD fans on the board.

Arnab
January 19, 2005, 05:38 PM
Eh. You not only have a weird perspective, you also have a weird way of presenting/defending your perspective. A weird mix of faulty logic and emotional appeals, somethign that ultimately is marginally better than straight up whining + wishful thinking.

Edited on, January 19, 2005, 10:39 PM GMT, by Arnab.

pagol-chagol
January 19, 2005, 05:56 PM
Why do a group of people keep saying we didn't try to?

And another group of people keep saying why we didn't try to.

The fact of the matter is we wanted to win if we had the wickets halfway through the day. Bangladesh team is very good at scoring a lot of runs very fast when we have a lot of wickets. The few times we had a lot of wickets in the last 10 overs of ODIs, we have scored close to 90 runs. Even before the 5th day many of us here were saying that we shouldn't worry about run rates in the first 50 overs and save almost all our wickets. If we have enough wickets we can easily win this game by slogging it out. That is what we are good at. That strategy would not only ensure a draw that would also be the only way we could win. We don't have Kaif and Dravid to rotate strikes at every ball.

rafiq
January 19, 2005, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by pagol-chagol
At first, I saw that most of the Bangladeshis weren't happy with the draw. The Bangladeshis avid followers of cricket were, however. I concluded, its probably the lack of knowledge on cricket. Now, it seems that the people on the other side of the spectrum, the non Bangladeshi cricket lovers, have a similar point of view.

I think you really have to be a long term follower of Bangladesh Cricket Team to understand the magnitude of this epic draw. This was bigger than a win in many ways.

This whole thing is going out of control.

Pagol-chagol, what do you mean by the above? That anyone who thought BD should have gone for the win doesn't have any knowledge of cricket and isn't a long term follower? Drawing a game that was winnable is bigger than if they had actually won it?

Is this the pagol part of you talking, or the chagol?

Hasib
January 19, 2005, 11:27 PM
Originally posted by reverse_swing
Originally posted by shujan
I would feel better if they tried. They didn't even try.

spot on.

I would love to know what you guys would have been saying if we went for the win and lost the match.

pagol-chagol
January 20, 2005, 12:53 AM
Originally posted by rafiq

This whole thing is going out of control.

Pagol-chagol, what do you mean by the above? That anyone who thought BD should have gone for the win doesn't have any knowledge of cricket and isn't a long term follower? Drawing a game that was winnable is bigger than if they had actually won it?

Is this the pagol part of you talking, or the chagol?


I thought neither like Pagol nor like chagol. I thought exactly like Dave Whatmore.

Ahmed_B
January 20, 2005, 01:23 AM
Originally posted by shujan
Personally I was disappointed that they didn't play for win. I would feel better if they tried. They didn't even try. Anyway its over now. Lets Look to the future.
mmm... cant really agree with that..

on the 5th day... BD's first priority was to keep wickets on session-1 and go for strikes frm session-2... but things dint work as planned.. n BD lost JO in first session..

then in 2nd session they lost Nafees the moment he tried to accelerate the RR.. then after that they lost Bashar/Ash very cheaply (5 runs only!)..

Probably due the 5th day nature of the pitch or failure of major stokeplayers of the team to execute themselves (Bashar/Ash/Aftab) .. BD hat to go back to backfoot again.. only going for the draw..

I wouldn't say they dint have a will to try for the win in mind... its just that situations turned against them to do that!

Andrewwisden
January 20, 2005, 03:01 AM
Morning all ...

Huda: Yes, I was very impressed with what I saw of Enamul and Rafique last winter. In fact, I wrote at the time that Bangladesh had missed a trick in the second Test by choosing to bowl first, when they had two men full of confidence who might have enjoyed a twirl in the fourth innings. I doubt it would have affected the result, but it might have shaken the English up a bit! As for Rafique's batting ...!

Sham: I remember Afsan very well, quite a character as you say! Had a long chat with him early in my trip, when he gave me a very interesting potted history of the country, and I later went out to dinner with him as well.

And Ghor: There never were any hard feelings, as far as I was concerned! All opinions welcome. Not sure I agree with you, mind! Fast-tracking Bangladesh was all very well, but as we are seeing with their gripping performances against Zimbabwe, it is of far greater sporting merit to bring them up to speed against balanced opponents. I've said all along that the country will one day be a force, but constant beatings does no team's development any favours.

shovon13
January 20, 2005, 03:07 AM
out!!

shujon strikes!!

Ahmed_B
January 20, 2005, 05:18 AM
Originally posted by shovon13
out!!

shujon strikes!!
:-/ now whts with this?! :D

Ahmed_B
January 20, 2005, 05:45 AM
Originally posted by DJ Sahastra
If it was an India-Australia series with everything the same, and if India had played the way BD has and settled for a draw, i would've been so upset i would've refused to watch any India-match for quite sometime, would've asked for Saurav's and John Wright's heads to roll and would've cursed the whole team...
DJ... let me help you out a lil bit more right here..as I hav read you so far to be a thoughtfull observer...

Frankly speaking,the way things turned outon the 5th day... every single fan (Including me!) out here and all over this country wanted a win... they were not utterly happy with the draw!.. but still they were happy.. and do u know why? coz it gave them the series win and you probably will realize how much that really means to a team which is constantly under criticism from all over the world..

Cricket has had a gulf of change these days.. and teams are not given as much fair time as needed as it would be given 20/30 years back... now that is not a fault of Bangladesh.. is it?!!

This is where u r wrong to put an Ind-Aus match in comparison with this match of BD-ZIM.. coz had India lost the match trying to win it.. it would matter far far less in their ranking position and no one except the indian fans would even bother to look back at it for the second time!! In BD's case.. it was a question of having the first ever series win.. not to mention the huge outside perssuer to show up with performance and points in ranking table!! BD surely would hav been crucified 1000 later times for just one game loss which would have caused them their maiden series win and hence... the whole tryout for a WIN would have been called UTTER STUPIDITY for long long time later on..

This is just the curse of the 'struggling' phase on the way to build a decent reputation I suppose! And as this team don't yet have a highly impressive reputation yet.. they never really will get the 'benifit of doubt' even from the critics/analysts/observers!!

Are the reasons clear enough to you (and everyone else who still thinks BD should have taken more risk to go for winn) yet?.. If it is not.. then i really give up!!


Edited on, January 20, 2005, 10:51 AM GMT, by crickethorizon.

zaphod
January 20, 2005, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by shujan
Welcome zephod! Very sensible and neutral analysis.
Thank you

In the aftermath of the draw couple of questions rises:
1) Will these victory put pressure on the other oppostion like Pakistan, West Indies and India when they play test against us?
Definitely. No doubt about it. No team likes to be the first team to be beaten by the so called 'minnows'. And with a team like india...imagine what their press will do to them if they lose. So in their case....they pretty much have to sweep BD to maintain their status quo. With Pakistan....I like BDs chances better....they are very unpredictable. If the BD batsmen can survive the initial onslaught of the pakistan bowlers....then BD have a decent shot. The PK bowlers droop very easily...ie in my humble opinion. West Indies....now that would be an interesting series....but the pressure on them will not be as much since the general perception is that the windies are currently in a very bad shape. For the windies themselves, pride is the one thing which they will play for.

2) In ICC rating West Indies rating is just above Zimbabwe. Zimbabwe has 42 in 9th, West Indies has 73 in 8th and Bangladesh has 6 in 10th. Question is Can Bangladesh win a test against West Indies like Zimbabwe?
I dont think any ratings can be used to arrive at a conclusive decision since almost every rating system has its flaws. But can BD beat WI like they did with ZIM...not at this point. With ZIM...there was a certain expectation that BD will win. That will not be the case with the WI. WI are still a lot more experienced and they have LARA who on his day...can pretty much take away the game from any opposition...not just BD

3) Beilieve it or not above West Indies it is New Zealand with 93 in 7th. What is the outcome of Bangladesh VS New Zealand recent test ?

BD & NZ....NZ all the way. One of the shrewdest captains and a team with loads of experience against the best in the world.

4) Can Bangladesh get a draw in next series against England?
The current English team....unlikely. They are a much improved lot. Though I feel the Aussies will beat them for the ashes....this ashes, I feel will be a different one atleast to follow. I think, the India-Aus series at Australia when India drew 1-1 and also had the Aussies fighting for a draw was a landmark of sorts for all the other teams. It just showed that it is not impossible to beat the Aussies. Ofcourse you need not just a great team but also a very consistent team. And currently that is what differentiates teams like India, England, Pakistan and the World champs. That series was one of those rare occassions when India played at a consistently high level. Not sure whether it will ever happen again. But coming back to your question...No...BD cannot beat Eng...infact i think it will be tough for BD to even eke out a draw. (again.....not trying to be insulting ......I have to say this repeatedly to avoid irate members like tiger till i die !!)

5) Can Bangladesh get a draw or win in test against the 9 test nation beside Zimbabwe?
At this point no....in a year....maybe...in two years...definitely. this is assuming, the core of the team stays the same and gathers enough experience.

6) Bagladesh survived 5 sessions with Hondo, Chigumbura and Penyangara. Will they survive 3 sessions against Flintoff and Hermison?
As i said...dont know much from a player perspective. So cant answer that.

Edited on, January 20, 2005, 7:40 PM GMT, by chinaman.
Reason: Quote-Answer sync