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View Full Version : England Tour: Pace or Spin to Load for BD?


Ahmed_B
February 4, 2005, 01:01 PM
So which 'PROGRAM' should be loaded into the upcoming 'England-Tour-Matrix'??;)

Should we form out bowling squad highly based on our Spin-Sensations to cast their spells on the English n Aussi guys??

Or should we keep in mind the nature of the fast/bouncy-wickets in english conditions and really form a POWERFULL pace attak atleast 2 faster-strike-bowlers and 2 more medium pacers plus spinners who can take wickets any any sort of pitch(include allrounders)??

I think Going for the Pace attack will be more usefull... even though BD's recent successes have been heavily supported by the Spinners. But mind it.. that was on a very much flat and spin-friendly pitches!

Opinions?

Rubayed
February 4, 2005, 02:19 PM
I think in my opinion they need to have a bit of both, considering how bd's slow medium pacers did in England WC i think Bd should go with atleast 3 pacers and 1 or 2 spinners. But i'm not sure about it myself,,so i'm open to other people's suggestions and discussions!

oracle
February 4, 2005, 02:50 PM
Even with Enamuls succes at home, I would be wary of using him a s a frontline spin option. As such, we have no choice but to bring in Sujon , at least for the ODI. Hoping that Tapash will come thru and be effective in those conditions.

Huda
February 4, 2005, 02:58 PM
if u use 2 spinners in england u will get murdered, temas go to england with a 4/5 man pace attack never mind a 3 man attack

Mr-khan
February 4, 2005, 03:12 PM
Bowling attack
Pacers: Mashrafee,Taposh,Nazmul/Shafak/Sahadat(Test and Odi)
Medium Pacer: Shareef or Sujon(for Odi)
Spinner: Rafiq,Rana/Enamul(Test and Odi)

Edited on, February 4, 2005, 8:17 PM GMT, by mr-khan.

Edited on, February 4, 2005, 8:17 PM GMT, by mr-khan.

Edited on, February 4, 2005, 8:17 PM GMT, by mr-khan.

Rubayed
February 4, 2005, 03:34 PM
Strictly speaking for Tests only, i agree that people do go to England with 4 or 5 pace attacks but the question is do we have that kind of quality 4 or 5 pace bowlers in our team? If not then its better to have 3 pace bolwers and one spinner, caz we have to have atleast 6 genuine batsmen as well in that english condition.

RazabQ
February 4, 2005, 03:48 PM
in my miscallaneous thoughts (http://www.banglacricket.com/html/article.php?year=2005&item=293) article, I talk about the reasons for a pacer heavy team. In another post, "mashrafee's odi form" (http://www.banglacricket.com/alochona/viewthread.php?tid=9431), Sham & I discuss some more tactics.

Razab

Blah
February 4, 2005, 05:29 PM
Well, rafique will be included inthe team by default regardless of the wicket condition, the question is will enam be also included or not. Ofcourse there is no question or possibility of having more than 2 frontline spinners inthe team. First because of the wicket and secondly because even in bangladesh test matches we didnt include more than 2 frontline spinners, so in england it's totally out of the question. most likely in test match the bowling attack will the same as it was in dhaka.

Masri
Taposh
Rafique
Enam

Part time bowlers will fill in for some extra overs and enam could be replaced by nazmul. I think that would be preety much the bowling attack, unless injuries or someone performs exceptionally well in practice matches.

Remember, enam joined the BD A team to play in Zim which is supposed to be fast ball friendly conditions.

Blah

Sham
February 4, 2005, 06:04 PM
Well, to begin with, English wickets are neither fast nor bouncy! The only hard wicket in England is at the Oval, but we don't have a game there. I think a lot of people think of English/Australian/South Africa wickets as being similar, which is far from being the case. English wickets aren't anywhere near SA or Aus in hardness. The English conditions (wet and dreary) make the wickets moist and grassy and the heavy overhead atmosphere because of a constant low cloud cover in this country makes the ball swing a lot. We need atleast three pace bowlers plus aftab in the test team. And I would play Rafique of course, can't leave him out. But three front-line quickies are a must!

Masri and Tapash are two obvious choices. As for a third, we'll have to wait and see who does well in these A tours. For the test matches, in a squad of 15, we should look to take 7 batsmen, keeper, 5 pacers and 2 spinners. So probably three out of Talha, Nazmul, Rajib, Shafaq, Sharif and Rassel. Personally, I am biased against Nazmul and Sharif in the test side because I think they are too short to be front-line fast bowlers. Nazmul is good in the one-dayers so i'd definitely keep him in the squad for those! I would ideally take Talha, Rajib and Shafaq. I desperately hope Shafaq does well, we really could do with a left-arm pacer right now. Would make our bowling attack almost complete!!

Faisal
February 4, 2005, 06:06 PM
in my opinion... bd should take for test match against england..

1. tapos
2. masrafee
3. sharif
4. sujon
5, enamul haq moni

nazmul, rafiqe, rana should be out for england tour..

Blah
February 4, 2005, 06:26 PM
Faisal I hope you are joking.

Sham
February 4, 2005, 07:38 PM
Why do I get the feeling he is serious?

Piranha
February 4, 2005, 07:55 PM
I'd like to give the 2-spinner idea a try, if the pitch appears slow enough. It is after all, our strength, and might just come off spectacularly.

I'd definitely like to see Jr play in a practice match (we have them right? too lazy to look up itinerary).

Sham
February 4, 2005, 08:09 PM
A three dayer against British Universities at a venue yet to be confirmed (most likely to be at Loughborough). And two four day fixtures against Sussex and Northamptonshire at Hove and Northampton respectively.

Give Enamul a try in one of the practice games. I would love for him to play, if we could still afford 3 front-line quickies. But to go into a test match in may and early june in England with 2 pace bowlers would be a crazy thing to do!

Faisal
February 4, 2005, 08:15 PM
no im serious... my bowling line wud be like that.......

rana, nazmul & rafiqe get dropp for england tour.. if bd want to play good cricket... but onedat they can bring back rafiqe... nyways..

tapos, masrafee, sharif , sujon & enamul hoq will be good bowling line u in english condition.... belive it or not...

AsifTheManRahman
February 4, 2005, 08:15 PM
care to explain? :)

Blah
February 4, 2005, 08:31 PM
Faisal, I don't believe it and not. With enough luck Sujon won't make it to either team, ODI and Test.

Rubayed
February 4, 2005, 10:08 PM
I think Sujon will be quite effective in English condition where the ball will get quite a bit of a seam movement.

betaar
February 4, 2005, 11:30 PM
Originally posted by Rubayed
I think Sujon will be quite effective in English condition where the ball will get quite a bit of a seam movement.

I totally 2nd that. Though Shujon's form is downward he could still come back as the most successfull bowler in English condition.

I have nothing to say about the dude who picked Sahrif and Enamul Huq in his team. :duh:

Edited on, February 5, 2005, 4:31 AM GMT, by BETAAR.

Rubu
February 4, 2005, 11:37 PM
sujon has proven before that he is very useful in english condition. and unless we get some proven fact like 5th odi against zim that SLA are the trump cards, we are not gonna have 3 prong SLA. so, sujon is gonna play. there is not much point discussing it. and he is a interesting character, to say the list. when everyone is pissed about him and writting him off, he'll come back, and will come back good. and when everyone will start thinking high about him (because of his performance), he'll be the most useless player of the team. but, he'll be in the team for sure. and that will bring up a very good question, who to drop from this 3: rana, rafique and enamul. yeah, i do not envy selector's job.

fwullah
February 4, 2005, 11:41 PM
think Going for the Pace attack will be more usefull... even though BD's recent successes have been heavily supported by the Spinners. But mind it.. that was on a very much flat and spin-friendly pitches!


I think we should have a 'balanced' attack. Not too much concentration on pace, also not on too much spin.

The reason behind Zimabwe's loss to us was their 'too much concentration' on their pace attack. They had only one specialist spinner in their side, whether its a test match or an ODI. So we should learn from 'their' mistakes; especially because we didn't show much 'weakness' in our games.

fwullah
February 4, 2005, 11:53 PM
Since everybody is discussing mentioning the players' names, so I think I should, too.

In the 14 or 16 member squad, we must take all the available resources with us, that is, take both pace & spin together.

And then selecting the final eleven after watching the conditions of the wickets.

In that case, we have the following batsman who will be in the side regardless of the conditions:

1. Javed Omar (tests only)
2. Nafees Iqbal
3. Aftab Ahmed
4. Habibul Bashar (c)
5. Rajin Saleh
6. Md. Ashraful
7. Khaled Mashud (wk)(vc)
8. Any new batsman - depending on how many players we take on ENG tour, or if we take any new batsman at all.

The rest 6-8 places - specialist bowlers:

9. Mashrafee Bin Murtoza
10. Tapash Baisya
11. Nazmul Hossain
12. Khaled Mahmud (ODIs only)
13. Md. Rafique
14. Enamul Haque Junior (tests only)
15. Monjurul Islam Rana (ODIs only)
16. Talha Jubair
17. Any new emerging pace bowler, depending on how many players we take on ENG tour

So we have already have more than 14 players in our side, we can think of taking Md. Sharif, Naimur Rahman outside from this list, who have played International cricket for Bangladesh before.

babon
February 5, 2005, 12:35 AM
i think we shd concentrate on pace attack. we have a group of talented and effective paces now a days. i always thought that with the help of early english summer conditions, our pacers could pull of a surprize or two.

cracky
February 5, 2005, 01:15 AM
I think sujon and aftab's bowling will be very useful in ODI's in England.

bourny3
February 5, 2005, 02:11 AM
How about 5 bowlers.
Mashrafe
Rafique
Tapash
Nazmul
Enamul

Or have
Rana
Masri
Rafique
Tapash
Nazmul

Zephaniah
February 5, 2005, 07:13 AM
I used to like Talha a lot as 3rd pace bowling option for his pace & height. But after couple of years of international cricket, though it's been sporadic due to injury lay off, he still sprays the ball all over the pitch. Aparently he still needs to put a superhuman effort to bowl at just-outside-offstump line. I hope he gets his acts together dramatically.

I've been rooting for 'Big Shak' for a while. Though he lacks express pace, he's tall and left haded. His accuracy is getting there. I suspect he lacks mental aspect of being a hostile pace bowler too. But he's working on it. This A team tour is very important for him and I truly hope that he comes good.

In test matches we need atleast 3 pacerswith Aftab as we're scheduled to play in late May/Early July. I'll be watching Sharif too, mainly for ODIs. He's improving with bat and often mop up the tail.

Sham
February 5, 2005, 09:54 AM
Is everyone picking the Test side or the ODI side?

If we are picking the ODI side, then we will probably have people like Mahmud in the squad, I'm pretty sure. But I was talking about the Test side. Between the test and the odis, we can send a few home and bring in a few new ones as is the practice now. People like Golla and a couple of the front-line pacers should bo back after the tests and we will probably in Mahmud and Rana for the odi squad.

The test squad should have a minimum of 15, the odi squad doesn't need more than 14 in my opinion. Fwullah, regardless of the size of the squad, we are definitely going to take more than our six regular batsmen for the tests. We have to make provisions for injuries you know! So 7 batsmen will definitely go. Pilot will go as keeper, two spinners and 5 pacers in a squad of 15 seems balanced to me. Obviously we will definitely not play more than two spinners, and even if we decide to play two (which is unlikely), it won't be anyone apart from Rafique and Enamul, so there is no point taking three spinners to England, in the test squad. Taking five pacers is a good idea. It gives us the option of picking the best 3, and also gives the other guys a taste of English conditions.

So probable Test squad:

1. Golla
2. Nafees
3. Bashar
4. Ashraful
5. Rajin
6. Aftab
7. Reserve Batsman (Tushar, Shamsur Rahman, Rokon, Kapali)
8. Pilot
9. Rafique
10. Enamul
11. Mashrafe
12. Tapash
13. Seamer (Talha, Rajib, Nazmul, Shafaq, Sharif)
14. Seamer (Talha, Rajib, Nazmul, Shafaq, Sharif)
15. Seamer (Talha, Rajib, Nazmul, Shafaq, Sharif)

Probable ODI squad

1. Nafees
2. Rajin
3. Aftab
4. Bashar
5. Ashraful
6. Batsman (Tushar, Shamsur, Rokon, Kapali)
7. Pilot
8. Rana
9. Rafique
10. Enamul
11. Mahmud
12. Mashrafe
13. Tapash
14. Nazmul

chyicarus
February 5, 2005, 10:39 AM
I would pack in an extra batsman in there- becoz we know England to be seaming tracks- but our main weakness lies in our batting. Also- i don't think we should rely too much on all rounders like Sujon, Mushfique etc. Kapali needs to pick up his game and Aftab will be expected to bowl a lot of overs in this tour!

Ahmed_B
February 5, 2005, 02:21 PM
It's probably a good idea to try out Spinners well in the practice matches and see how they do... before the main matches.

If they do well.. only then we can increase weight on our spinnsers... otherwise go for Pace...

Ibrahim
February 5, 2005, 03:56 PM
I think the main strength of BD team is lefti spinners. Whatever the condition is we have to use our main strength.

No matter what the condition (English/Bangalish) is bowlers should be in good combination (balanced) of fast and slow bowlers.

Bangla Mostan
February 5, 2005, 05:27 PM
Chacha...as a one day specialist, he has the experience of the enlish conditions..'no need for bong-song' in the test arena..we need to apply the winning formula in the test for the real TEST...that would entail having Rafique, Enamul, Masrafee, Rana & Taposh as the fore-front of the attack....

For Subs we need Nazmul, Alok to be there....only time will tell what the selectors eat, and think like..lets hope they are reading some of our comments.

:up:

Zephaniah
February 5, 2005, 07:12 PM
Sham. Probebly most of us thinking in the same line as you. Just one thing. We need to be vigilent about JO's form and reflex in coming days. If he doesn't seem to be prepared for the battle then I would love to see Shahrear Nafees Ahmed slotted in instead of him. Nafees Ahmed was part of the last U-19 England tour and he played significantly well there. Let's just see how JO performs in the national league and what massege Nafees Ahmed sends to the selectors in Zimbabwe tour.

Zobair
February 5, 2005, 07:24 PM
my thoughts exactly. :)

Originally posted by Zephaniah
Sham. Probebly most of us thinking in the same line as you. Just one thing. We need to be vigilent about JO's form and reflex in coming days. If he doesn't seem to be prepared for the battle then I would love to see Shahrear Nafees Ahmed slotted in instead of him. Nafees Ahmed was part of the last U-19 England tour and he played significantly well there. Let's just see how JO performs in the national league and what massege Nafees Ahmed sends to the selectors in Zimbabwe tour.

Bat-PadTogether
February 5, 2005, 07:25 PM
Originally posted by Faisal
no im serious... my bowling line wud be like that.......

rana, nazmul & rafiqe get dropp for england tour.. if bd want to play good cricket... but onedat they can bring back rafiqe... nyways..

tapos, masrafee, sharif , sujon & enamul hoq will be good bowling line u in english condition.... belive it or not... Faisal gain some experience first.You have posted some most rubbish post.Dont the the ABC of cricket!:down::down::down:

Sham
February 5, 2005, 07:46 PM
I agree, I am worried about Javed Omar and would like to see someone else slot into the opening spot for the Tests against England, but for some reason, I don't think it will happen. We can still hope though.

Even if Javed has a really good domestic season, it doesn't really say anything. He will be playing on BD pitches which are batting friendly. And even if the BCB tries to produce hard pitches, they can't manufacture swinging conditions. I think Javed will really struggle in England. He has certain qualities that are necessary in an opener, patience, ability to leave the ball, etc. But I don't think he has the overall technique to survive in England. He like to get onto the front foot and put his front pad forward (in front of the stumps) and he will be very vulnerable to LBWs from England's pacers.

I hope someone else does well enough to claim that position. I don't want Hannan either because he has the exact same problem as Javed, he can't play the ball that comes into the pads. A lot of the BD batsmen have this probelm of putting their front foot forward and therefore not being able to play the incoming delivery.

ManInBlack
February 5, 2005, 11:44 PM
Load Matrix with Spin....heres why...

1...English condition is good for medium pacers but nobody said its not good for spiners.
2...Spiners like Murali, Warne...vettori had very good results in England.
3...We have good pace bowlers but we've seen it before that they cannot win us matches.
4...We have 3 top class spin bowlers and our hopes of winning lies in thier performance..

2 of our 3 spiners should play in every match.

reyme
February 5, 2005, 11:50 PM
Sham, very well said! Except for Rana case, most often I like your observation.
I wish there was an alternative for Javed, maybe Nafis Ahmed. But I believe Rajin can also be a good choice for the opening slot and then look for a 6th batsman. I found 1st wkt is very costly for BD, if the openers do well, usually the top order and sometimes even middle order play well. But when the openers struggle to survive, usually it affects the top order the most, and eventually comes down to the lower order to put a brake on the collapse.

Sham
February 6, 2005, 12:06 AM
I agree with you, it will be very important for us to see off the new ball. I think England's strategy will be to do as much damage with it as possible, we definitely don't want Bashar batting in the first 15-20 overs. Of course, that might well happen, but we ought to pick the two best openers possible, and not just pick Javed because he has done well recently.

As for Man in black's post, I just want to say that spinners have done well in England, but you will see that they have done better towards the end of summer, when it is dryer and sunnier. The early part of summer is very damp and grey, and seamers tend to do much better!

cricketboy
February 6, 2005, 12:14 AM
My test team will be:
Javed Omar
Nafis Iqbal
Habibul Bashar
Ashraful
Rajin
Aftab
Pilot
Rafique
Mashrafe
Topash
Tareq Aziz/Nazmul/ One who does well in next months
12th man-enamul haque

ManInBlack
February 6, 2005, 02:33 AM
Sham...thanks for the post..I actually didn't have the early summer factor into my considerations.
Do u think our seamers can exploit the condition and pull out a match winner.