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babubangla
February 15, 2005, 03:36 PM
Right after his surprising 141*, he produced another balst in the 1-day match with 78. Khaled Mahmud having a good time with his bat.

billah
February 15, 2005, 03:53 PM
Our Taposh hit a 36 ball 53 for Sylhet also. Good going Baysia man.

redstar
February 15, 2005, 04:54 PM
Khaled Mahmud, still has a role within the one-day setup. Only if he can show some sort of consistency this season with the bat then can he be considered for the test sqaud (not side!). He's bowling lacks 'bite' to be effective in test cricket. Therefore, he'll be in the side as a batsman who can bowl, rather than as a genuine all-rounder. I'd rather have an extra out-&-out batsman. What do you bring him in as, batsman, all-rounder...? And in place of whom? He should bat higher up in the 1-day side though!

mwrkhan
February 15, 2005, 05:00 PM
Mahmud is a liability and should not be played.

redstar
February 15, 2005, 05:19 PM
What's the basis of your judgement mwrkhan? He's an experienced international with a tiger like attitude (typical for short people!!!)

mwrkhan
February 15, 2005, 05:51 PM
Tiger like attitude. Lol !!!!

Sham
February 15, 2005, 06:47 PM
Mahmud is a decent cricketer and he will score runs on Dhaka wickets when he is in form, which he obviously is. I won't be against Mahmud in the ODI squad/team in England. He might do a job for us there, especially if he can bowl a nagging line and keep the batsmen quiet. That coupled with a cameo here and there and he will be more than useful. However, I don't think I would pick him in the Test squad, let alone team even if he scored a 100 in every match from now till the end of the season!

Rubu
February 15, 2005, 07:06 PM
i agree with Sham as well. since england pitches support medium pacers and chacha has a reputation of doing good there, we should take him for odi squad. but in other places where the pitches is spin friendly, i'd suggest to take another SLA instead of him, since we have so many quality SLA.

but for test, his bowling is just not a match for it. and about his batting, he needs to prove in odi's that his bat can talk in internation level as well before he can be taken into the team as pure batsman as suggested by redstar. there is a big problem even with that. we have quite a few quality pure batsman right now to make room for chacha. to include him as pure batsman, we need to drop one of these: rajin, aftab, nafis, ashraful, suman, omar. no i'd not suggest that.

Fazal
February 15, 2005, 08:35 PM
Originally posted by Sham
I don't think I would pick him in the Test squad, let alone team even if he scored a 100 in every match from now till the end of the season!
Something personal?:-/

chyicarus
February 15, 2005, 08:38 PM
i think we had a discussion about this issue and i completely agree with Sham here- Mahmud is an asset in ODI but a liability in Tests.
If we do consider him in Tests, then it would be like taking two steps back. Not to disrespect him but i think this is the "moron kamor" phase of his career and he's best used in ODI with such bite!

couger
February 15, 2005, 08:54 PM
Originally posted by AgentSmith
i agree with Sham as well. since england pitches support medium pacers and chacha has a reputation of doing good there, we should take him for odi squad. but in other places where the pitches is spin friendly, i'd suggest to take another SLA instead of him, since we have so many quality SLA.


Very few English pitches are actually spin friendly. Last thing you want in your attack is lack of variation. 2 SLAs should be good enough. Throw some Fast mediums and Medium pacers in the fold.

Sham
February 15, 2005, 09:26 PM
NO! Its nothing personal! Its called cricketing sense, and anyone who has it won't pick Mahmud in a test team! Just because he can milk bowlers around on dead tracks in BD (I don't buy all this BCB talk of green pitches) doesn't mean he can be a test batsman in England. Nor a bowler to come to that. We need a proper test team, and in my view, that team should have six specialist batsmen and four specialist bowlers, whoever they are. Bangladesh does not have a Test quality all-rounder at the moment, and when we do (maybe someone from the A team will emerge), I'll be over the moon! Mahmud is a good ODI cricketer and has a big heart, but there is no place for him in the Test team, not as a batsman, even if he scored a million runs this season! The domestic league in BD is still pretty poor and success in it is unfortunately not all that indicative of a player's ability.

What the hell is wrong with people on this forum these day? You can't express an opinion of a player without someone accusing you of having a personal grudge! If anyone has a personal grudge, its you who does! How many times have you written something about Kapali in the last week? Its crazy. I thought the guy was promising, but it seems like he has completely lost the plot and if he never does well enough to play for BD again so be it. I am not going to lose sleep over it. But the way you go on about the guy, its almost like you sit their praying that he fails so you can come and crack another joke about him being assured of his place in the team! Get a life!

sadi
February 15, 2005, 09:50 PM
i dun think sujon should play test anymore....but if he is in such a form that he scored 100 runs in this season...then why not give him a chance... sometimes an inform batsman can overcome different conditions and continue his form.... dun get me wrong here...i dun want him in the team... but if he scores thousand runs this season, he should get a chance....

amarbangla@msn.com
February 15, 2005, 11:09 PM
chaccha rockin now.... way to go! thats what he needs to come back with honors.. :clap::clap::clap::clap:

Fazal
February 16, 2005, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by Sham
NO! Its nothing personal!


Good to know!

Originally posted by Sham
If anyone has a personal grudge, its you who does! How many times have you written something about Kapali in the last week? Its crazy.


I can assure you that it’s not personal either. When Alok will start "milk bowlers around on dead tracks in BD" like ChaCha, the next day I will be off his back.

You need proof. Rajin Saleh. See now I am longer after Rajin (as long as he is producing).

You may call me 'cricket illiterate' that’s ok, but something personal against Alok? Nah.... you must be kidding… :P

Fazal
February 16, 2005, 10:23 AM
... bty... the day when selectors stop selcting off-form Alok, I will be off his back also.:)

Sham
February 16, 2005, 10:30 AM
Well, its good to know that you dont have any personal grudge against Alok either so maybe you can stop accusing me from now on everytime I write against a player. But how is it constructive to get after a player everytime he plays badly and start supporting him everytime he plays well? Players are going to have patches of form and and times when they cant get bat to ball! Happens everywhere. Personally, I try to judge a player on how good I think he is, having watched him play and try to stick with the ones that I think are good. That doesn't mean I can't be wrong. Sometimes, players I think are pretty ordinary end up doing well, and at other times players who I think are really good turn out to be really disappointing. National selectors of the best teams in the world get it wrong at times, so surely we will as well with regard to a player's future. But I don't see the point of beating up on a player when they go through bad patches and then supporting them when they are doing well. Everyone will have both during their careers!

Sham
February 16, 2005, 10:35 AM
sometimes, a player will score a good 15 in difficult conditions and get out to a an unplayable delivery. At other times, a player may play a cheeky innings of 50 during which he got 3-4 lives. The problem with judging players based purely on numbers is that you don't know what really happened out there, so let the national league carry on for a while. After the half-way point, we'll get a better indication of who is doing well and who isn't.

babubangla
February 16, 2005, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by mwrkhan
Mahmud is a liability and should not be played.

Just look at the scorecards of recently completed series against New Zealand and India. I'm sure you will find your "Cooments" as the biggest liability for us all, Not Khaled Mahmud.

bdboy
February 16, 2005, 10:48 AM
Chacha tu deki goshona deya run kora shuro korlo....

DotBall
February 16, 2005, 10:50 AM
Mahmud is very valuable for ODI. He has a very good fighting spirit and experience.

Fazal
February 16, 2005, 10:53 AM
Originally posted by Sham
Well, its good to know that you dont have any personal grudge against Alok either so maybe you can stop accusing me from now on everytime

:-/ When did I accused you? I asked you a question if its personal or not and you replied its not. And I accepted that. I don't know why you are accusing me of accusing you?:lol:

Originally posted by Sham
But how is it constructive to get after a player everytime he plays badly and start supporting him everytime he plays well? Players are going to have patches of form and and times when they cant get bat to ball! Happens everywhere.


May be constructive may be not. And unlike you I am not claiming all my comments constructive also. To me who cares what I say in a messageboard, ist not going tpo effect a Player's performance or selection process:P

True players goes through patches of off form. And I beleive that you don't fix it by selectiong him in the National team. You have premire league, Team-A etc, etc to fix those. National; team is not day-care center for under acheiving but so called taleneted players.


Originally posted by Sham

But I don't see the point of beating up on a player when they go through bad patches and then supporting them when they are doing well. Everyone will have both during their careers!

I respectfully disagree. As long as a player is selected in the national team inspite of his off-form and lack of performance, I will be after him. Beacuse it affects our National Team. For example, Hannan is off-form but he is also not in the national team. So who cares? But Alok? Not only he is off form, he is constantly selcted in the National team. And thats the difference.

Edited on, February 16, 2005, 3:54 PM GMT, by Fazal.

Fazal
February 16, 2005, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by Sham
sometimes, a player will score a good 15 in difficult conditions and get out to a an unplayable delivery. At other times, a player may play a cheeky innings of 50 during which he got 3-4 lives. The problem with judging players based purely on numbers is that you don't know what really happened out there, so let the national league carry on for a while. After the half-way point, we'll get a better indication of who is doing well and who isn't.

True. Unfortunately most of us doesn't have the luxury to watch these games in person. Therefore I would rather trust on mere scorecard and reports from newspaper rather than comments from some of the memebers in this board, who somehow claims to be know it all.

May be they know it all. But for me, if it doesn't back-up with score-card and/or reports from newspaper reporters who is wathing first hand, I personally give little value to it.

It may be just me,.... but I am who I am.

babubangla
February 16, 2005, 11:10 AM
Couple of days ago, I spent some time at "Work" to complie the one-day statistics of BD players while playing for the National Team. I gathered data for all the matches BD National Team played in England and sorted out and summarized the performance of Current national team players.

Just look at the summary below and tell me who else still thinks Khaled Mahmud is a "Liability"?


Batting Stats of BD players in English Condition:

Runs- Innings- Not Out- Ave.
Javed Omar 136-6 -0 -22.67
Mohammad Ashraful 148- 7- 0- 21.14
Nafis Iqbal 258 -7 -0 -36.86
Aftab Ahmed 132 -7 -0 -18.86
Rajin Saleh 164 -7 -3 -41.00
Khaled Masud 221 -14 -4 -22.10
Md. Rafique 86 -9 -2 -12.29
Tapas Baisya 47 -5 -1 -11.75
Nazmul Hossain 06 -4 -2 -3.00
Manjurul Islam Ran 07 -4 -0 -1.75
Khaled Mahmud 241 -10- 2 -30.13
Mushfiqur Rahman 21 -2 -0 -10.50
Faisal Hossain 54 -1 -0 -54.00
Hassibul Hossain 26 -4 -1 -8.67
Manjurul Islam 21 -4 -3 -21.00


Bowling Stats of BD players in English Condition:

Over- Mdn- Run- Wkts- Econ.- Ave.
Tapash Baisya 43- 1 -248 -6 -5.77 -41.33
Nazmul Hossain 46 -4 -189- 3 -4.11- 63.00
Khaled Mahmud 92 -9 -450 -11 -4.89 -40.91
Md. Rafique 75- 4 -311 -10 -4.15 -31.10
Manjurul Rana 36 -1 -137- 5 -3.81- 27.40
Rajin Saleh 11.4- 1 -65 -4 -5.57- 16.25
Md Ashraful 1 -0 -3 -0 -3.00- N/A
Mushfiq Rahman 15.1- 0- 74- 0- 4.88- N/A
Tareq Aziz 20 -2 -84- 2 -4.20- 42.00
Hassibul Hossain 41- 5 -159- 4 -3.88- 39.75
Manjurul Islam 36- 5 -128- 3 -3.56- 42.67

Me too is doubful about K. Kahmud's effectiveness in Test cricket. But for ODI, Mahmud's days are not over yet. He just don't hang in there, when he plays, he becomes one of the pillar of success. So, please when you use words like "Liability" for him, please think twice. Just look at the scorecards and remember the moments of joys he often brings to us all !! I will never mark him as "Liability", rather I would say he is one of the most "Patriotic" player of BD team.

fwullah
February 16, 2005, 11:15 AM
then can he be considered for the test sqaud (not side!). - Before going through the others' posts, let me give my opinion.

Sujon will be considered in the test side only & if he brings us victories for the national team batting alone against sides like England and Australia.

fwullah
February 16, 2005, 11:20 AM
on dead tracks in BD (I don't buy all this BCB talk of green pitches)


Sham, I read it in some paper some time last week that the Dhaka match is played on normal Bangladeshi surface - spin friendly or batting friendly; the reason being because of some political and social functions which were held in BNS, BCB could not find the time to prepare the BNS pitch as green-top.

So it is obvious that Sujon scored all those runs in normal Bangladeshi pitches.

babubangla
February 16, 2005, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by fwullah
then can he be considered for the test sqaud (not side!). - Before going through the others' posts, let me give my opinion.

Sujon will be considered in the test side only & if he brings us victories for the national team batting alone against sides like England and Australia.

"brings us victories for the national team batting alone against sides like England and Australia" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Victory against Australia?? Batting Alone???
Then Not a single player in Bangladesh is qualified to be in the test team.

CTazim
February 16, 2005, 11:23 AM
I guess there should be rule against discrimination on the basis of age. While replacing the original team was based on the argument that we were building a test team for the future, IMHO, Bangladesh team would have benefited further if we had Naimur, Bulbul, Nannu etc. for a couple of years more. Who knows -Maybe we didn't have to wait that long to win an ODI?

All the aces of today like Ashraful, Rajin etc. could have benefited more during that time from staying in the A team. I am not talking about now.. I am talking about 2001-2003 season.

It would have made more sense if that was the case. That had been a strategic mistake.. Hind sight is 20/20.. Again the patience we have shown with the young BD team should have been rendered to the original test team as well. We would then have had even a stronger argument against our adversaries. With that argument, unless someone says that Shujon is not physically fit not selecting him will be an extremely "subjective" selection process.

Azim

Edited on, February 16, 2005, 5:52 PM GMT, by CTazim.
Reason: Several structural and semantic mistakes

Edited on, February 16, 2005, 5:53 PM GMT, by CTazim.
Reason: mistakes

CTazim
February 16, 2005, 11:23 AM
P.S. the first line above should read Age not Race . Sorry

babubangla
February 16, 2005, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by CTazim
P.S. the first line above should read Age not Race . Sorry

to eliminate further confusion, you could have just edit the post to replace race for age.

fwullah
February 16, 2005, 11:33 AM
Khaled Mahmud is a "Liability"?


Yes, in Tests. And if you know me long enough, say, from the end of year 2003, you have to admit that I have no grudge against Mahmud :); On the contrary, he's one of my most favorite players.

fwullah
February 16, 2005, 11:35 AM
Victory against Australia?? Batting Alone???


Oh man! Sham is right. Nobody is thinking straight these days!

I meant 'batting alone in ODIs against England & Australia', not in tests.

fwullah
February 16, 2005, 11:38 AM
If there is further clarification needed on the 'batting alone' - I meant that Sujon must bowl really horribly or not bowl much fielding first and then achieve the chasing target set by the opposition; or bat so brilliantly batting first, then he won't have to take the ball in his hands while fielding and yet Bangladesh winning. After all, he's a match-winner.

babubangla
February 16, 2005, 11:43 AM
Originally posted by fwullah

Khaled Mahmud is a "Liability"?


Yes, in Tests. And if you know me long enough, say, from the end of year 2003, you have to admit that I have no grudge against Mahmud :); On the contrary, he's one of my most favorite players.

Fair enough.
I think no one should any grudge against any player. We are not talking about person here, we are concerned about the game itself. We never go against the team. Players are the element who make up the team. So having grudge against a player, in a sense, means having grudge against the team. The way we celebrate or feel frasutraed about our team performance, the same approach should be folowed for players too. When our team was performing terribly bad right afther the world cup, we all felt bad, but we never thought of our team as a liability.

babubangla
February 16, 2005, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by fwullah

Victory against Australia?? Batting Alone???


Oh man! Sham is right. Nobody is thinking straight these days!

I meant 'batting alone in ODIs against England & Australia', not in tests.

Oh man! Nobody is writing straight thesse days!!

At what point in your follwoing quote you mentioned that you are talking about ODI batting: "Sujon will be considered in the test side only & if he brings us victories for the national team batting alone against sides like England and Australia."

Edited on, February 16, 2005, 4:49 PM GMT, by babubangla.

Sham
February 16, 2005, 11:56 AM
What Fwullah meant by 'batting alone' is NOT that he should bat by himself and beat Australia single-handedly! She meant that Sujon should prove himself as a specialist batsman (batting alone) in order to get himself into the Test side. Basically, he should prove that his batting alone is good enough for the test side, and not a combination of his batting and his bowling!

Awkward way of putting it, but I dont think anyone is dumb enough to suggest that Sujon should form a one member team, take on Australia and beat them to a pulp!!


Edited on, February 16, 2005, 5:00 PM GMT, by Sham.

babubangla
February 16, 2005, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by fwullah
If there is further clarification needed on the 'batting alone' - I meant that Sujon must bowl really horribly or not bowl much fielding first and then achieve the chasing target set by the opposition; or bat so brilliantly batting first, then he won't have to take the ball in his hands while fielding and yet Bangladesh winning. After all, he's a match-winner.

It makes sense.
You are indeed a thoughful man.
It's quality writing- each word has a lot of meaning inside it.
I'm not making fun!! For example, When we read tagore's writing, we have to be careful in reading becasue each word is tailored with serious thinking. I have to you read your posts carefuly now. You may think about literary writing.
I appreciate your explanation.

Edited on, February 16, 2005, 4:59 PM GMT, by babubangla.

Ahmed_B
February 16, 2005, 12:41 PM
What's all the fuss about some National League scores by Mahmud anyway??

Tushar Imran, Opee, Durjoy.. each of them has been consistantly scoring good in the recent domestic matches... but how much do those matter anyway?! The difference in standards between our domestic league and the International matches is just too big!

Personally, I was quite surprised when senior players like Mahum & Javed Omar were saying on TV interview that they are thinking of making big scores in this NL and prove their worthyness in ODI(JO) & Tests(Mahmud) again!! This is really funny stuff from those senior players... !!!

Because they really should be thinking about performing in the version of the game they are already playing!!(as for JO in Tests & Mahmud in ODI's) And only that can get them reconsidered for the other version as well.. even if we need that from them in coming times!!

Dawah
February 16, 2005, 12:53 PM
Khaled Mahmud is an example of a disciplined player.
He is still an asset to our country, and can be a source for motivation.

After Khaled Mahmud retires, he should be selected as a coach and trained.

Shehwar
February 16, 2005, 01:42 PM
MY PREDICTION: Khaled Mahmud wud set the world on fire in the England tour...(If he is selected to play ofcourse..lolz..)..But honestly..on a more serious note..I feel Shujon still is a very decent player & fits into our ODI squad for the upcoming England tour perfectly...U know..He knowz how to get wickets with horrible & wayward deliveries...!!!....That is some talent i tell ya....Thats why I'm a big Shujon fan...chill ppl...!

Ahmed_B
February 16, 2005, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by Shehwar
U know..He knowz how to get wickets with horrible & wayward deliveries...!!!
:D

babubangla
February 16, 2005, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by crickethorizon
What's all the fuss about some National League scores by Mahmud anyway??

Tushar Imran, Opee, Durjoy.. each of them has been consistantly scoring good in the recent domestic matches... but how much do those matter anyway?! The difference in standards between our domestic league and the International matches is just too big!

Personally, I was quite surprised when senior players like Mahum & Javed Omar were saying on TV interview that they are thinking of making big scores in this NL and prove their worthyness in ODI(JO) & Tests(Mahmud) again!! This is really funny stuff from those senior players... !!!

Because they really should be thinking about performing in the version of the game they are already playing!!(as for JO in Tests & Mahmud in ODI's) And only that can get them reconsidered for the other version as well.. even if we need that from them in coming times!!

So---what is you idea about the player selection process.
I know there is a big difference between National League/Dhaka Club Cricket and International Cricket. If you dont select players from the "low-standard" domestic cricket, then where would you pick players from? English country cricket????? For your information, we found Alok Kapali, Rajin Saleh, Mashrafee-----all from National League. When someone performs well in domestic cricket, we give them chance to play in internationals...thats how it worked all the time. We would appreciate if you can describe some alternate way of player selection. I am sure this will be an interesting idea to consider.

cricket_pagla
February 17, 2005, 12:17 AM
valoi... kintu aro valo kora dorkar sobar...

Ahmed_B
February 17, 2005, 06:11 AM
Originally posted by babubangla
So---what is you idea about the player selection process.
I know there is a big difference between National League/Dhaka Club Cricket and International Cricket. If you dont select players from the "low-standard" domestic cricket, then where would you pick players from? English country cricket????? For your information, we found Alok Kapali, Rajin Saleh, Mashrafee-----all from National League. When someone performs well in domestic cricket, we give them chance to play in internationals...thats how it worked all the time. We would appreciate if you can describe some alternate way of player selection. I am sure this will be an interesting idea to consider.
I'm sorry to say... u only got half the idea of my post.. but missed the other half!

"Player selection process" is solely based on 'Performances in domestic' league only and only when the player is a newcomer! Yes you are right about Alok/Rajin/Masree in that case. because there are no other ways to predict a newcomer's ability in international arena!!

But when it's about someone as old/already-tested as Chacha or JO... r u crazy enough to get blind and ignore their previous international performance and consider shots in our weak domestic sphere ahead of those??!! Specially when both of them hav already played in both versions of the game (TEST/ODI) and already exhibited how much capable they are out there...

To be frank, both of them are struggling in the form of game they still r playing: JO in tests and Chacha in ODI's(with bat). If they get (+)30 marks for their good runs in the Domestic League.. they also get (-)60 marks for their almost horribly struggling innings in the International matches. Now if u know simple math(im sure u do!)... count their score pls! (+30-60=??)

In case of mahmud.. his good job with the ball is the only thing that still gets him in the ODI team. In case of JO... well... we still dont hav a good replacement of him!!

do I make enough sense now?? :cool:


Edited on, February 17, 2005, 11:22 AM GMT, by crickethorizon.

Fazal
February 17, 2005, 09:56 AM
Originally posted by crickethorizon

To be frank, both of them are struggling in the form of game they still r playing: JO in tests and Chacha in ODI's(with bat). If they get (+)30 marks for their good runs in the Domestic League.. they also get (-)60 marks for their almost horribly struggling innings in the International matches. Now if u know simple math(im sure u do!)... count their score pls! (+30-60=??)

In case of mahmud.. his good job with the ball is the only thing that still gets him in the ODI team. In case of JO... well... we still dont hav a good replacement of him!!

do I make enough sense now?? :cool:


Edited on, February 17, 2005, 11:22 AM GMT, by crickethorizon.

Interesting point.

I am not very good at maths. But still I will give a try.

So even srcoring 140* and 70+, mahmud is still +30-60 = -30 point behind. Looks like he needs to score a triple century then to make it even. Hmmmm...

Now lets compare Gullu so far: 0 (may be from domestic league) - 30 (from recent record in national team) = -30.

How about Aloke so far?

-80(domestic) - 80 (from recent record in national team)= -160.

Now I am confused. Is negetive score is better or worse?

Then howcome Aloke was selected (and will be selected again) in national team or even India bound semi-national team? :-/

gobdgo
February 17, 2005, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by mwrkhan
Tiger like attitude. Lol !!!!



Think where he is when GOD did not blessed him enough with physic. I know there is lots of arguement about size of a cricketer but no doubt "size matters"...

Ahmed_B
February 17, 2005, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by Fazal
So even srcoring 140* and 70+, mahmud is still +30-60 = -30 point behind. Looks like he needs to score a triple century then to make it even. Hmmmm...
NOPs!!
He atleast needs to score some 40+ innings in the next few ODI's that he playes!!

And yes..
I am surely not as excited as many may be, about those 140* or 70+ that he made in the league.

Tell me something..
Will u still stand behind Mahmud to take him back in the Test sqad if he successfully completes this league with an average of around 60+ but still consistantly scores max.m 10-20 runs in the ODI's vs. Test teams??

If you do... then I would say you'r view is quite different from mine.


Edited on, February 17, 2005, 3:39 PM GMT, by crickethorizon.

akabir77
February 17, 2005, 10:48 AM
Read my Leaps.. oh u can't see my leaps....

CHA CHA will start fire in england

Fazal
February 17, 2005, 11:01 AM
Originally posted by crickethorizon
Tell me something..
Will u still stand behind Mahmud to take him back in the Test sqad if he successfully completes this league with an average of around 60+ but still consistantly scores max.m 10-20 runs in the ODI's vs. Test teams??

If you do... then I would say you'r view is quite different from mine.


Edited on, February 17, 2005, 3:39 PM GMT, by crickethorizon.

Let me tell you my position about Mahmud. I feel that Mahmud is a useful player for our one day team. For test, we may have other options. Am I going to cry foul if he not selected in the team? It depends who they really select instead of him. Someone who deserve a chance or someone who somehow sneak into the team for one reason or another (except by performance).

Also I beg to differ with some of you on other issue. The door should not be closed for any player for comeback: not for Mahmud, Alok, Rokon, Gullu or Hannan or any body. If they can prove their case in domestic league, team-a (whatever is available to them) with their performance, they deserve a chance. Regardless of age, if Mahmud can prove with performance that he can be a good fit (short term) as batting all rounder, then why not? Asif Iqbal, Emran Khan, Wasim Akram played better as a batsman in their later stage. I believe closing a door for any player (.i.e should not be selected in the team regardless of whatever they do) sends a very bad signal to the entire team.

In conclusion: I am not going to cry foul if Mahmud is not selected and someone better is selected (selected with is performance, not for mama chaha). I really don't appreciate the general tone of some of the members to drag down mahmud's performance so far, and even mention something like he doesn't deserve a place even he scores all the centuries for the rest of the season. That All.

Edited on, February 17, 2005, 4:12 PM GMT, by Fazal.

Sham
February 17, 2005, 11:18 AM
You don't pick players based solely on their performance, be it domestic, age group, a team or national side. There are many things to be taken into consideration. How good is a player's technique to deal with the kind of bowling he will face, how is his temperament, can he concentrate for long periods, does he have the basic talent required to make it in international cricket, does he have the ability to play long innings, can he adapt to different match situations, can he take the responsibility for the team on his shoulders etc etc. You would ideally pick players who will score positively on most of those and negatively on just a few. Some people think of team selection as a very simple matter. Player A score 500 runs and Player B scores 300 runs in the domestic league. Therefore, Player A is better than Player B and so gets into the team. If you take Player B, they will write about it on every thread on this message board!

We know how good Mahmud's batting is. We have seen it for over 10 years! We know how he plays (across the line)! We know how good his technique is. In my HUMBLE opinion, he does NOT have the technique to bat in the top order in Test Matches England. It does not matter if he scores centuries after centuries in the domestic competition in Bangladesh! I don't care if people resent my saying this, but that is how it is.

I hope our selectors don't have such a simplistic view of team selection!

Fazal
February 17, 2005, 11:33 AM
True Players selection is not simple matter. Also true that some of us try to over simplify the selection process either due to our lack of knowledge or information available to us. And that’s why we are fans not the selectors.

However there is another group of people who tends to over complicate the matter and tend to ignore or forget the basic facts:

1. The national Team is not a day-care center or rehabilitation center for talented players with good technique (but off-form). We have Developmental squads and age group teams to identify those and groom them. Not in national team. In national team you are expected to produce, regardless of your technique or style. Players like Mahmud and Rana proved that with some success ( and for Mahmud with some failure also) regardless of their so-called bat technique.

2. The scoreboard may not be the best criteria to judge a player, but at the end of the game, its the scoreboard that decides who wins or who losses the game.

babubangla
February 17, 2005, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by crickethorizon
Originally posted by babubangla
So---what is you idea about the player selection process.
I know there is a big difference between National League/Dhaka Club Cricket and International Cricket. If you dont select players from the "low-standard" domestic cricket, then where would you pick players from? English country cricket????? For your information, we found Alok Kapali, Rajin Saleh, Mashrafee-----all from National League. When someone performs well in domestic cricket, we give them chance to play in internationals...thats how it worked all the time. We would appreciate if you can describe some alternate way of player selection. I am sure this will be an interesting idea to consider.
I'm sorry to say... u only got half the idea of my post.. but missed the other half!

"Player selection process" is solely based on 'Performances in domestic' league only and only when the player is a newcomer! Yes you are right about Alok/Rajin/Masree in that case. because there are no other ways to predict a newcomer's ability in international arena!!

But when it's about someone as old/already-tested as Chacha or JO... r u crazy enough to get blind and ignore their previous international performance and consider shots in our weak domestic sphere ahead of those??!! Specially when both of them hav already played in both versions of the game (TEST/ODI) and already exhibited how much capable they are out there...

To be frank, both of them are struggling in the form of game they still r playing: JO in tests and Chacha in ODI's(with bat). If they get (+)30 marks for their good runs in the Domestic League.. they also get (-)60 marks for their almost horribly struggling innings in the International matches. Now if u know simple math(im sure u do!)... count their score pls! (+30-60=??)

In case of mahmud.. his good job with the ball is the only thing that still gets him in the ODI team. In case of JO... well... we still dont hav a good replacement of him!!

do I make enough sense now?? :cool:


Edited on, February 17, 2005, 11:22 AM GMT, by crickethorizon.


I'm sorry to say... u did not the idea of my post at all.

Please refer to my post one more time. I did not mention a single word about Khaled Mahmud in the post. My post was not about him at all. My whole post was concerned about your comment —”but how much do those matter anyway?! The difference in standards between our domestic league and the International matches is just too big!”

Yes, they do matter. You just imported the “New Player” and “Existing Player” issues in your subsequent post. But your original post just says that the performance in domestic league is not a matter due to big difference of standard compare to international cricket. At what point in your post did you mention that your comment about domestic league standard does apply to “Existing Players” only????????

Yes, I know simple math. My simple math sense says 2 + 2 = 4. But I guess your math sense will say 2 + 2 = 5, because you will keep the extra 1 for later import—just like importing “New Player-Existing Player” issues to validate your comment.

When you add your “New Player-Existing Player” ideas with your original post, it just brings a new context in your comments. And it becomes much easier to agree with your ideas. But when your keep these ideas in your mind and express just half of them, how should one read your mind and get the whole idea? When you express half of the ideas in a post, people will just get half of the meaning. We are readers, not psychic readers. If you still have doubt, just see it in the light of critical reasoning--- you will see why people will always get the half idea from that post.

And like you and almost everybody else, I too believe that test cricket is an area of specialization. It is really hard for players like Khaled Mahmud to be effective in longer version games. But there is no question about his effectiveness in ODI.

At the end, you asked whether it makes sense now. Yes it does. It makes a lot clear sense, but only when I read your posting of “16-2-2005 at 11:41 AM” and “17-2-2005 at 05:11 AM” together. Unfortunately, there is long 17 Hours and 30 minutes’ gap in between for people to get “half meaning” :lol::lol::lol::lol:

Sham
February 17, 2005, 11:53 AM
Fazal, you are mixing up the issues:

1) No one said that the national team is a day care centre. Everyone wants to pick players who are going to perform. I don't think Mahmud will in England, which is why I feel the way I do. Why do you take my opposition to Mahmud in the team as say my support for Kapali in the team? Did I say Kapali should be in this team? No. I wouldnt pick him either. It seems like you read my comments on Mahmud, and think Kapali! Sooner you stop doing that the better! We need to pick players who will play well in England. Some of us think Mahmud will play well, some of us don't (and domestic performance won't change that). Thats the issue!

2) I don't really get the point about scorecards deciding the outcome of the game. If it is that the numbers matter, of course they do! In the actual match, thats all that matter in the end. However, we are talking about numbers from domestic cricket being indicative of how well they will perform in the real thing, and I don't think domestic cricket is a good barometer. I would rather look at which batsmen played important knocks under pressure, against quality bowlers, on difficult pitches, when the team needed it most, against the odds etc! Given the general low standard of our domestic leagues, those things would count more in my view than just numbers!

Ahmed_B
February 17, 2005, 12:39 PM
babubangla: lots of frisky comments... thanx for the twisted thinkings!

The importance of domestic cricket scores alone, when it comes to selection process, is still far less to me... no matter who makes it! That is in reply to your question about what is my idea about selection process.

The rest... wel u figure out urself... if it's not much trouble for u.
End of useless arguments from my side.. u can continue if u want to.

Fazal
February 17, 2005, 12:45 PM
Sham,

<i>>>Why do you take my opposition to Mahmud in the team as say my support for Kapali in the team? Did I say Kapali should be in this team? No. I wouldn’t pick him either</i>

I don't know why you get offended when I use Kapali's name as an example. Where did I say that you want Kapali on the team? Thanks for the clarification anyway. Kapali was a perfect example where a player is rewarded before he is fully recovered his form.

Almost all of us haven't seen Mahmud’s 141*. However reading the newspaper, they praised that as a gutsy knock. The team was under pressure and difficult position; he started cautiously and accelerated later on. I understand that you give little value to domestic result alone; however I haven't seen you acknowledging those other facts. Now does one knock make him an automatic selection? No. But I don't like a closed door policy, that's all.


<i>>>Some of us think Mahmud will play well, some of us don't (and domestic performance won't change that). Thats the issue!</i>

If you discount completely the domestic performance then how can a player prove his case? There should be another channel then. Don't tell me based on technique, talent. Then that will open doors for more off-form players like... (ok I am not going to mention his name!). I understand that a century in domestic league, shouldn’t count as much as a century in Duleep Cup. But it also tells that a player who consistently fails in our domestic leagues should have no place in our team-a.

Now if you want to see Mahmud’s previous performance in England, than Babubangla’s message give the stat compared with other players. In my opinion, Mahmud’s stats were not bad compared to his other team mates. The issue is pretty clear to me.

<i>>> I don't really get the point about scorecards deciding the outcome of the game. If it is that the numbers matter, of course they do! In the actual match, thats all that matter in the end. However, we are talking about numbers from domestic cricket being indicative of how well they will perform in the real thing, and I don't think domestic cricket is a good barometer.</i>

If you haven’t seen that yet, I would request you to please see babuBangla's "Batting Stats of BD players in English Condition:" message in this thread. If may not be extra-ordinary, but it’s not below average also.

Let me try again about my scoreboard comment. Scorecards decide the outcome of the game and individual players contribute to the scoreboard. And the stat of individual players represents that.


I guess we still tend to disagree in these matters. Which is fine with me. But I still wonder why you take some of my comments as if a personal attach to you though. We both love BD cricket and have different point of view and we are expressing that... there’s nothing personal about that.. at-least I hope so....

Edited on, February 17, 2005, 5:46 PM GMT, by Fazal.

Ahmed_B
February 17, 2005, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by Sham
However, we are talking about numbers from domestic cricket being indicative of how well they will perform in the real thing, and I don't think domestic cricket is a good barometer. I would rather look at which batsmen played important knocks under pressure, against quality bowlers, on difficult pitches, when the team needed it most, against the odds etc! Given the general low standard of our domestic leagues, those things would count more in my view than just numbers!
Exactly!...That is my point also..

mahbubH
February 17, 2005, 12:50 PM
In case you guys missed the info from BDkhela, Mahmud scored 21 against Barishal in the first innings and again the type of his dismisal is LBW (by U19 pacer Israq Sonet). Fatulla is the venue for this 4-day match and Fatullah pitch is bit more grassy than BNS.

Sham
February 17, 2005, 12:52 PM
Fazal, since we are constantly replying to each others comments, I take some of your comments as being directed towards me, such as 'some people want to close the door even if he scores centuries.' If that wasn't meant for me, I dont know what was. But I don't take them as a personal attack. If I did, I'd ban you (violation of forum rules, hehe, just kidding!!)

As for the discussion, we will disagree. But, again, you are just not trying to see my point. In essence, I agree with you. We shouldn't take players who are off form, like Kapali. So where is the difference. What you don't seem to get is, my opposition to Mahmud doesn't mean that I want to take off-form players!! You keep bringing up this point of not taking inconsistent players in the national team. But when have I said that we should?

Fazal
February 17, 2005, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by Sham
Fazal, since we are constantly replying to each others comments, I take some of your comments as being directed towards me, such as 'some people want to close the door even if he scores centuries.'

.oops: That was Definitely directed towards towards you, but nothing personal, I just didn't like the close door policy.



But about binging the off-form players, that was not directed towards anyone, rather towards our selectors. Good to know that atleast we agree on that/;)

Just again to make it clear, I am not for mahmud's inclusion nor am I for mahmud's exclusion. It depends on who is the substitue selected.

This is my last comment in this thread.

Cheers.

RazabQ
February 17, 2005, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by Sham
We know how he plays (across the line)! We know how good his technique is. In my HUMBLE opinion, he does NOT have the technique to bat in the top order in Test Matches England. It does not matter if he scores centuries after centuries in the domestic competition in Bangladesh! I don't care if people resent my saying this, but that is how it is.


Kevin Pieterson also plays way accross the line and shuffles big-time - yet he's now considered a must in the English Test side. Brian Lara has a back lift that makes you think he'll cry "Fore" every-time he plays a shot. Virru plays a whole bunch of his shots by backing away to make space. My point? Technique is overrated. What is important is that you have a plan to deal with various deliveries (short balls, full pitches ones, etc) and that the plan is effective more often than not.

I agree with Sham that Mahmud is unlikely to be a good Test player at this point in his <s>my</s> life. Where we differ is in his last statements. If a man is scoring centuries after centuries in domestic competition, and then carries that form on to 1st class matches in the tour, then he deserves to be included in the Test side. It may be an unlikely story, but then isn't that the essence of Cricket?

Edited on, February 18, 2005, 9:14 AM GMT, by razabq.

AsifTheManRahman
February 17, 2005, 01:50 PM
see - the thing is the NCL this year is a competitive one since a lot of national players are playing, and i'm really happy about that. i'm also happy to see chacha doing well with the bat - it will be great if he can do similar stuff in odi's. however, i would still wait until the league matures before deciding whether he is capable of repeating this performance in the international arena (and the longer version of the game).