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nsd3
March 22, 2005, 04:09 PM
This was a burning question on the discussion on the thread named "Final 11 for Eng tour (Strategy and recommendation)" on whom to include on the opening slot along with Nafis.

Alternatives as putting Rana/Rajin there to accommodate extra allrounder at No 6 position for Eng condition were discussed. The dilemma is:

Whether to include Javed Omar on Final 11 or not.

Mr-khan
March 22, 2005, 04:22 PM
Javed to be in Final 11 or NOT
A BIG- NO

Replacement of Javed:

Rajin as opener or Someone new like Shahriar nafees.

al
March 22, 2005, 04:26 PM
Javed may be ok for 5 day tests certainly not for 1 dayers

Yameen
March 22, 2005, 04:30 PM
yeh, javed to open batting with nafees iqbal in test matches and rafique to open with iqbal in one dayers, seemed to work well against zimbabwe.

Beamer
March 22, 2005, 05:03 PM
Rajin has been opening in one days with Nafis Iqbal, in case no one noticed. Rafiq came into open in the match against Zim because Rajin had an injury. One day opening is pretty solidified with Nafis-Rajin combo. In tests, I am deeply against Rajin opening as it will leave the middle order vulnerable due to the lack of a gritty player who can tough it out. I am not very impressed with the idea of Javed opening with Nafis in England for test matches. That is a place of concern. Saying that, we don't have another specialist opener ready for that job in my mind as of yet. So, after much deliberation, I would tentativley push for Javed in that slot given his experience. Selectors should make sure that they include another specialist opener in the touring squad, in case Javed falters. They must not experiment with the opening slot. NO Rana, Rajin there...

Samir
March 22, 2005, 05:42 PM
Javed is one of our experience player when it comes to test. He should open w/ Nafees in Test so Rajin could help our vulnerable middle order....

chyicarus
March 22, 2005, 05:52 PM
I certainly think Javed Omar needs to be in Test teams- its ok to replace him with Rajin in the One-day squad. I agree with Samir in that his experience in the Test level is certainly required. Only thing is that he needs to be 100% fit- because we also require his invaluable fielding capabilities. I don't see any other stable opener in Test matches for Bangladesh. I certainly wouldn't want to see Rajin opening in Tests!

couger
March 22, 2005, 06:25 PM
It'll a be colossal blunder to leave Javed out of the Test (no oinion on the ODIs) team. He is actually the only viable opener we have and not using him would be a huge mistake.

Edited on, March 22, 2005, 11:26 PM GMT, by couger.

Sham
March 22, 2005, 06:35 PM
He is the only viable opener only because we don't have anyone else. I don't like the idea either, but what to do? I think we have to go with Javed for now. I really want Shahriar Nafees to prove himself, but I doubt there is enough time between now and the England tour to do that. As far as Rajin or Rana is concerned, I am definitely in the don't experiment with openers camp. This is not the tour to do that. We are going to make a big mistake by removing Rajin from the middle order. And as for Rana, are people seriously considering him as a Test opener? I hope not.

RazabQ
March 22, 2005, 06:47 PM
To stir the pot a bit. Hannan Sarkar just played out 181 balls for his 46 :) Perhaps he is regaining his powers of concentration. As there are no lefties in the top 5-6 pacers likely to play for England, I believe Sarkar as an alternative to Belim is worth thinking about. Having said that, at present, it's Belim & Nafis to open cuz there's no alternatives. BTW, has anyone thought about the fact that with Nafis's tendency to shuffle accross, he'll be extremely vulnerable to big inswingers in England?

Sham
March 22, 2005, 06:57 PM
I think all our batsmen will be very vulnerable to the incoming delivery. The only player I can think of who is technically equipped to play those is Ashraful. You mentioned Hannan, but I think he is one of the worst when it comes to shuffling over to the off-stump. The problem is, most of our batsmen actually have a slightly forward and across initial movement. They transfer their weight on to the front foot very early and then are committed to a shot. That partly our problem with short-pitched stuff as well. Especially Golla's. He doesn't get on to the back foot quick enough. Bashar tries to deal with it by going for the hook. But really, its a technical problem that most of our players have. Like I have said quite a few times, even if we do well to leave the outswingers by Hoggard or Harmison, we will always be very vulnerable to the ones that comes in.

AsifTheManRahman
March 22, 2005, 07:10 PM
i see no reason why we should not give javed another chance. one - we don't have anyone else...and two - come on, why shouldn't we play him when everyone else got so many chances? he has done well in the past and i'm sure he has the capability to bounce back from his bad form. if he fails - oh well, give him a couple of more choices and throw him out eventually.

i think we should wait for some time before letting in any of the young openers that are knocking on the door.

RazabQ
March 22, 2005, 07:12 PM
In general, I completely agree with your assessment, and I also agree Hannan shuffles too (37% of his 33 innings have ended in an LBW) . However, when in form and on song, Hannan is very quick to get bat and pad right behind the ball, and stay very low and compact. He also has excellent temperament when it comes to leaving balls outside off-stump. His most maddening problem is an inability to deal with a off-cutter bowled by a lefty which england does not possess at this moment. I'm not saying HS is the answer, I'm just saying that a guy who has his best scores against pace heavy teams like Australia, SA and England (away and home) could be a potential alternative to JO, who IMHO has rapidly detotriated in terms of reflexes.

chyicarus
March 22, 2005, 07:17 PM
I would give Hannan a little more time to get back into his groove. Sham is correct in pointing out his batting flaws and especially in English conditions where the pitches are slightly slanting, it would cause him a lot of problems with the in-coming deliveries. All of the B'deshi batsmen have weaknesses, I completely agree. Habibul is a bigger target for that sort of a wicket because even if he plays the ball- he doesn't quite keep in down. Nafis have a tough time as Hoggard can exploit that weakness of his! Rajin and Ashraful has good technique and can keep their pads out of the way and play straight. I haven't seen much of Aftab to really talk about his weaknesses. But i think Mashrafee might have a better aggregate than all of these batsmen and don't forget Pilot!

Sham
March 22, 2005, 07:26 PM
Yeah, JO's reflexes are pretty bad. And the way he got out to a Chigumbura bouncer on a slow and low wicket in Chittagong in the first innings of the First Test match pretty much said it all. Can you imagine the guy against Harmison at Lord's? Not that Lord's is a quick ground, but he is going to have his work cut out for him, especially with a short leg in place. In Chittagong, there wasn't even a short leg and Taibu ran around to where the short leg would have been and took the catch! Pretty pathetic!

feisal
March 22, 2005, 07:38 PM
Sham, to add:

think about ALL the dismissals since Windies tour.. pretty bad..either gully or keper/short leg with those rising deliveries... his only innings of substance a unnoticed fifty against NZ (very scrtachy) and that match saving partnership against zimbo ( dropped very early) I was in Dhaka during the India series.. my word he looked so inadequate... pretty difficult to have some one who will DEFENITELY be knocked over by a good ball (not agreat ball, mind you..)

** On Rana: he is pretty useful, but in England strategically he probably will not have any chance of making it in the eleven..in fact Enamul can be missed out too ( with three 5 wicket haul in last three innings..)Rna

Sham
March 22, 2005, 07:49 PM
Enamul went wicketless today against Barisal (to add insult to injury, Alok took 4 wickets). Not that I am worried about it, but I think he is coming back down to earth. He had a really good time of it against Zimbabwe. He was bowling well and we happened to be playing a weak opponent so things worked out well. Don't get me wrong, I think he is a wonderful spinner. The kind of spinner we have been waiting for, the one that really tosses it up and spins the ball. On a fifth day on a dusty sub-continental pitch, he could bowl any side out. But he is not God! Some people want him in the team no matter what, but that is something I just can't agree with!



Edited on, March 23, 2005, 12:51 AM GMT, by Sham.

cricketboy
March 22, 2005, 08:29 PM
Originally posted by Beamer
Rajin has been opening in one days with Nafis Iqbal, in case no one noticed. Rafiq came into open in the match against Zim because Rajin had an injury. One day opening is pretty solidified with Nafis-Rajin combo. In tests, I am deeply against Rajin opening as it will leave the middle order vulnerable due to the lack of a gritty player who can tough it out. I am not very impressed with the idea of Javed opening with Nafis in England for test matches. That is a place of concern. Saying that, we don't have another specialist opener ready for that job in my mind as of yet. So, after much deliberation, I would tentativley push for Javed in that slot given his experience. Selectors should make sure that they include another specialist opener in the touring squad, in case Javed falters. They must not experiment with the opening slot. NO Rana, Rajin there...

I agree, Javed Omar to open with Nafis again although i dont expect him to score centuries! By the way they had a good partnership last time and played a lot of balls for around 40. :P

little_master
March 22, 2005, 08:57 PM
Playing a lot of balls in even test does not make a batsman to be good. what is the use of playing 100 balls and only making 10 runs! It is too NEGATIVE to be a test player. It is not the oldy 1890 test. It is now 2005. You have to get some handsome runs while staying at crease. So JAVED OMAR is not an option for positive cricket! BD have to play positive cricket to boost their test standard. BD have to find another opener sooner. I dont dare to name anyone!

Personally I dont like <b>negative cricket</b>. Palying negative cricket, a team cant improve. Look at the ODI stats of Bangladesh. BD did play lots of negative cricket in ODI and they could not boost their playing standard, their mentality in 100+ ODIs. But now-a-days BD starts to play positive cricket and start to stand tall against whoever-else.

get rid of JO and play positive cricket.
BTW I dont have any personal enmity with JO. :lol:

RazabQ
March 22, 2005, 09:56 PM
little_master, you make a good point. The thing is, are BD in a positition to play +vely and pull it off? When Australia loose their their 1st 4 wickets for 50 runs, they attack and pull it off. Do we BD have the wherewithal to do that? If you sincerely believe that then we have no debate - tis a matter of belief.

However if you don't believe we have that capability then you take a stepwise approach towards improvement:

Step 1: become very tough to be beaten. Frustrate their attack. Bludgeon them with boredom (even tho it might alienate some fans - in the end the wins will count).

Step 2: start pulling off the occasional upsets. This will foster self-belief and give birth to a matchwinner

Step 3: become a consistent winning side.

If you look at England, this is what they have done. Under Hussain, they were as cussed as the man himself, resorting to tactics such as bowling at Tendulkar's leg stump or relying on Athers and stodgy Vaugh to keep out the new ball. Then they started winning a few and getting match winners like Freddie, Harms and exciting Vaughn. And now they are a pretty useful winning side.

If you look at BD, I feel we are somewhere between 1 & 2. We are - on the ODIs at least - starting to pull a few upsets, and becoming harder to beat on Test cricket. JO's ability to occupy the crease is an useful component to the becoming harder to beat. Anytime an opening combination can keep the opposition's new ball attack at bay and frustrate them, the strokemakers like Bashar & Ash can have a go.

Edited on, March 23, 2005, 3:05 AM GMT, by razabq.

AsifTheManRahman
March 22, 2005, 10:09 PM
Originally posted by Sham
but I think he is coming back down to earth.
Edited on, March 23, 2005, 12:51 AM GMT, by Sham.

he may just be one of those guys who don't find enough incentive to show what they're made of against inferior opponents! :) (example - bashar/ash)

Shehwar
March 23, 2005, 03:03 AM
I find it difficult to believe that most of u people are actually advocating for Javed's exclusion....I mean...come on.....wots wrong with u ppl..?.....How many chances did ppl like Kapali and Rajin get ?.....And then when everyone was so fired up for Rajin's head...I maintained that he shuld be in the team and the results are here for everyone to see.....Javed Omar is an asset to our cricket.....He is one experienced guy whom we really need in the England tour....Apart from his cricket abilities he keeps the team going with his awesome sense of humour.....I really feel justice hasn't been done to JO....I remember last year in the Asia Cup when he looked in awesome touch everyone was so convinced that JO was the solution we were looking for in the ODIs.....two failures after that and he once again got branded as a test player....He didn’t get selected for the last World Cup because of substandard players like Shezan and company..and yet when u look at his ODI career; his average is only second to Rajin Saleh who averages 22.90 followed by JO with 22.68…..and when ppl talk about JO scoring slow…it was infact towards the beginning of his career and he has rectified that problem to an extent….and may I ask is ppl like Ashraful setting the world on fire with a strike rate in the 60s ?….Even Bashar has a strike rate in the 50s with a much lower average than JO..May I ask why don u ppl ever ask for his head..?…Why only Javed..Because the guy is gritty and determined..?…..I really don’t understand the logic behind it….He scores more runs than most other at a better average and yet one little failure and everything else goes unnoticed and hez the one to suffer!……Here are the best averages of Bangladesh in ODIs:

Bangladesh
ODI Career Highest Batting Averages

Based on all matches up to and including
ODI # 2217: Bangladesh v Zimbabwe at Dhaka, 5th ODI, 31/01/2005

Qualification: 20 innings
Name Mat I NO Runs HS Ave SR 100 50 Ct St

Aminul Islam 39 39 5 794 70 23.35 56.59 - 3 13 -
Akram Khan 44 44 2 976 65 23.23 56.71 - 5 8 -
Rajin Saleh 31 31 0 710 82 22.90 55.08 - 5 7 -
Javed Omar 35 35 3 726 85* 22.68 50.27 - 6 7 -
Khaled Mashud 93 86 18 1363 54* 20.04 54.58 - 6 64 24
Alok Kapali 45 43 2 818 89* 19.95 64.92 - 4 17 -
Naimur Rahman 29 27 2 488 47 19.52 63.29 - - 7 -
Habibul Bashar 63 63 1 1201 74 19.37 58.84 - 9 11 -
Hannan Sarkar 20 20 0 383 61 19.15 53.71 - 3 8 -
Minhajul Abedin 27 26 2 453 68* 18.87 49.83 - 2 2 -
Tushar Imran 24 23 0 403 65 17.52 64.37 - 2 3 -
Mohammad Ashraful 48 47 2 759 66 16.86 64.32 - 4 5 -
Mushfiqur Rahman 28 25 3 360 49 16.36 52.17 - - 6 -
Khaled Mahmud 72 69 3 933 50 14.13 67.80 - 1 16 -
Mohammad Rafique 73 69 11 785 77 13.53 72.48 - 2 18 -
Al Sahariar 29 29 1 374 62* 13.35 52.75 - 2 7 -
Sanwar Hossain 27 27 2 290 52 11.60 48.57 - 1 11 -
Enamul Haque 29 26 5 236 32 11.23 49.26 - - 6 -
Tapash Baisya 45 36 10 282 35* 10.84 61.03 - - 6 -
Hasibul Hossain 32 26 6 172 21* 8.60 69.63 - - 6 -
Manjural Islam 34 22 13 53 13 5.88 39.55 - - 8 -



I feel the pair of Nafees and Javed has really jelled well together and we owe our test series victory entirely to them…..Because it is the pair of these two that gave us the perfect start in the first test from where we kicked on and it is these two who unbelievably saved us from certain defeat in the second and last test….We have been looking for a good opening pair for soooooooooo long…..It was normal for us to be 10 for 3 in no time for such a long period of time…Now that we got a decent opening pair going..u folks don’t want it to continue!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!……UN-BLOODY-BELIEVABLE!!!!!!…….Here is our all time test partnership records for everyone’s convenience:

Test Partnership Records for Bangladesh
Based on all matches up to and including
Test #1742: New Zealand v Australia at Wellington, Trans-Tasman Trophy 2nd Test, 18 Mar 2005

1st 133 Javed Omar & Nafees Iqbal v Zimbabwe Dhaka 2004/05
2nd 167 Habibul Bashar & Javed Omar v Pakistan Peshawar 2003
3rd 130 Javed Omar & Mohammad Ashraful v Pakistan Peshawar 2003
4th 120 Manjural Islam Rana & Habibul Bashar v West Indies Kingston 2004
5th 126 Aminul Islam & Mohammad Ashraful v Sri Lanka Colombo (SSC) 2001/02
6th 97 Mohammad Ashraful & Mushfiqur Rahman v Zimbabwe Harare 2003/04
7th 93 Khaled Mashud & Aminul Islam v India Dhaka 2000/01
8th 87 Mohammad Ashraful & Mohammad Rafique v West Indies Gros Islet 2004
9th 74 Tapash Baisya & Khaled Mashud v West Indies Gros Islet 2004
10th 46 Khaled Mashud & Manjural Islam v Zimbabwe Harare 2003/04
46 Mohammad Rafique & Tareq Aziz v West Indies Gros Islet 2004
46 Tapash Baisya & Tareq Aziz v West Indies Kingston 2004


Contributed by StatsGuru (stats@cricinfo.com)


Bangladesh
Test Career Highest Batting Averages

Based on all matches up to and including
Test # 1735: Bangladesh v Zimbabwe at Dhaka, 2nd Test, 14/01/2005

Qualification: 20 innings
Name Mat I NO Runs HS Ave SR 100 50 Ct St

Habibul Bashar 34 67 1 2299 113 34.83 58.35 3 19 19 -
Rajin Saleh 14 27 1 745 89 28.65 36.91 - 4 11 -
Mohammad Ashraful 25 49 3 1161 158* 25.23 41.97 2 6 6 -
Mohammad Rafique 18 34 5 685 111 23.62 61.93 1 2 6 -
Al Sahariar 15 30 0 683 71 22.76 51.39 - 4 10 -
Javed Omar 27 54 1 1155 119 21.79 33.19 1 5 6 -
Aminul Islam 13 26 1 530 145 21.20 34.86 1 2 5 -
Hannan Sarkar 17 33 0 662 76 20.06 46.65 - 5 7 -
Khaled Mashud 33 63 8 1102 103* 20.03 34.76 1 3 59 8
Alok Kapali 16 32 1 559 85 18.03 48.23 - 2 5 -
Khaled Mahmud 12 23 1 266 45 12.09 58.46 - - 2 -
Tapash Baisya 20 38 6 366 66 11.43 49.39 - 2 6 -
Mashrafe Mortaza 16 29 4 271 48 10.84 68.60 - - 5 -
Manjural Islam 17 33 11 81 21 3.68 21.65 - - 4 -




I know most of u know all these stats…then why go against such a gutsy player..?……Can anyone explain ?……

Edited on, March 23, 2005, 8:08 AM GMT, by Shehwar.

fwullah
March 23, 2005, 03:20 AM
Oh my! Looks like its a 'hot hot' topic.

Shehwar
March 23, 2005, 04:38 AM
Originally posted by little_master
Playing a lot of balls in even test does not make a batsman to be good. what is the use of playing 100 balls and only making 10 runs! It is too NEGATIVE to be a test player. It is not the oldy 1890 test. It is now 2005. You have to get some handsome runs while staying at crease. So JAVED OMAR is not an option for positive cricket! BD have to play positive cricket to boost their test standard. BD have to find another opener sooner. I dont dare to name anyone!

Personally I dont like <b>negative cricket</b>. Palying negative cricket, a team cant improve. Look at the ODI stats of Bangladesh. BD did play lots of negative cricket in ODI and they could not boost their playing standard, their mentality in 100+ ODIs. But now-a-days BD starts to play positive cricket and start to stand tall against whoever-else.

get rid of JO and play positive cricket.
BTW I dont have any personal enmity with JO. :lol:

With all due respects to ur knowledge about ‘positive’ and ‘negative’ cricket…..I’d much rather have JO scoring 10 runs of 100 balls than someone scoring 15 runs of 5 balls….Because in playing those 100 deliveries he will be involved in a big partnership which will work to the side’s benefit….The thing which JO so often does so exceptionally well is that he holds one end up..The key to a big innings is holding one end up…Bangladesh in particular have very few players who are able to hold one end up so that the other stroke makers can play around him…..Ash..Bashar..Aftab…all are stroke players and to jell in a partnership u need someone like Javed who can keep it going..who will not try to match them stroke by stroke….In the second test vs Pakistan in Peshawar in 2003 we were 310-2 at one stage….That was because Javed held one end up while Bashar and Ashraful were playing their natural game…..When u have some one like JO on the other end it gives u the confidence that ‘this guy is not gonna give his wicket away’…It has a big influence on the other players as well….The match I was talking about in Peshawar…once JO got out..from being 310-2 Bangladesh got bowled out for 361 simply because there were no other players who had it in them to stay at the crease like JO did….And there is a saying…IF U STAY AT THE WICKET; RUNS WILL TAKE CARE OF ITSELF’……That is why he has been involved in most of the big partnerships in the history of our cricket….

fy288
March 23, 2005, 04:44 AM
Originally posted by al
Javed may be ok for 5 day tests certainly not for 1 dayers

yeah i agree with the comment above, he is a reliable and solid opner with experience. He is way better than Hannan on current form.

Omar and Nafis to open for BD a good combo of exciting youth and experienced and solid opner.

Beamer
March 23, 2005, 12:25 PM
Nobody is advocating Javed's omission from the test team as the first choice opening partner with Nafis Iqbal. Some of the criticism directed towards him is valid nonetheless. He has declined over the last year in terms of his ability to cope with swinging or the shorter deliveries. His dismissals prove that point. I am afraid, he is losing his reflexes slowly but surely. It is not a matter of bad form from where he can surge back again to continue opening in the test team in a meaningful fashion.I doubt if he has the ability to stick around and hold the innings together like you have suggested the way he used to do before. Every player declines with age. That is normal. Same is going on with Javed. No doubt he has served us well, in Pakistan and many matches prior to that. But his recent innings's over the last year or so show the tell-tell signs of someone who is at the door of retirement. Sooner or later, sooner perhaps, we need to find another opener who can pair up with Nafis. That is the reality. You can bring up all his stats and avg, but the fact remains that he is not the player who he used to be. His biggest attribute was to hold the innings together and spend a lot of time in the crease. He is unable to do that consistently anymore. In the end of it all, he still is the no. 1 choice in the upcoming series to open with Nafis. Nobody else is ready. I think most members agree with that viewpoint but ignore the obvious facts alltogether is naive to say the least.

Fazal
March 23, 2005, 05:08 PM
I think they need to add one more opener like the other Nafees (Shahriah Nafees) in the team of 14/15 as a backup plan. So that if Gullu fails and Shahriah Nafees performs well in the warm matchs, then atleast Dav has some option left.

I don't mind see Gullu in the 1st test. But I would like to see some alternates in the team of 14/15 in case we see some real bad performance by Gullu in the first test.

chyicarus
March 23, 2005, 05:59 PM
The bottom line is that is there a good replacement for JO? I don't think so! There are prospective replacements but they need to be nutured and then brough out. Playing Shariar Nafees or anybody for that matter into an important series like this will only make the poor guy nervous and put a lot of pressure on him.
My question is that a lot of ppl in this thread have agreed to take JO out of the team- but thats not the solution- do you guys have any suitable replacement in mind? If so- justify your answers!
Saying Rajin or Ashraful to open with Nafis isn't a meaningful solution! So we not only need to make a decision, we also need to plug in the proper solution once that decision is made!