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pagol-chagol
March 28, 2005, 01:51 PM
Unbelievable Batting Average Stats
----------------------------------
Rana
TESTS
25.70
ONE-DAY INTERNATIONALS
23.66
FIRST-CLASS
35.45
LIST A LIMITED OVERS
17.11
--------------------------------------------------------
Ashraful
TESTS
25.23
ONE-DAY INTERNATIONALS
16.86
FIRST-CLASS
29.46
LIST A LIMITED OVERS
15.66
------------------------------------
I know Ashraful is the unluckiest batsman in the world with mind boggling in-control ratio and Rana could be the luckiest batsman in the world with the worst technique in test cricket history, but Rana has better stat in all four types of games. These stats are from the 199 games played by Ashraful and 106 games played by Rana. So the sample size is huge.

What do you think?

Akib
March 28, 2005, 01:53 PM
LOL.......

It seems Rana has better stats. Well even after all these games Ashraful is still young, 20 i think. After some time he will mature and he will become a better batsman and have better stats that Rana.....

Fazal
March 28, 2005, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by aka
After some time he will mature and he will become a better batsman and have better stats that Rana.....

ya ... in your dream.

Fazal
March 28, 2005, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by pagol-chagol
Unbelievable Batting Average Stats
----------------------------------
Rana
TESTS
25.70
ONE-DAY INTERNATIONALS
23.66
FIRST-CLASS
35.45
LIST A LIMITED OVERS
17.11
--------------------------------------------------------
Ashraful
TESTS
25.23
ONE-DAY INTERNATIONALS
16.86
FIRST-CLASS
29.46
LIST A LIMITED OVERS
15.66
------------------------------------
.....

What do you think?

Ah Hah!!!

Edited on, March 28, 2005, 6:57 PM GMT, by Fazal.

akabir77
March 28, 2005, 02:03 PM
I think rana's stat will stay there and ash will go on.....

Rubu
March 28, 2005, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by aka
LOL.......

It seems Rana has better stats. Well even after all these games Ashraful is still young, 20 i think. After some time he will mature and he will become a better batsman and have better stats that Rana.....

age is not an issue. they both are off the same age and both will go on.

i don't like this comparison though. because both of them are my favorite players in the team.

Beamer
March 28, 2005, 03:12 PM
One thing that the stats will never tell you is the certain impact of a player in that team. To me, any comparison between Rana and Ashraful fall in that category. Ashraful, already is an indespensible componet of our batting order non-withstanding his consistency issues. While Rana is a fringe player doing bits here and there and won't command any particular attention from the opposition. His grit is admirable but even his most ardent supporter has to admit that most the runs he scored so far, has come in losing situations. He just delayed the inevitable outcome of the match. Nothing more. Comparing him with Ash is out of context. You compare Ash with Rajin, Aftab, Bashar etc...not Rana. Its irrelevant.

Fazal
March 28, 2005, 03:27 PM
>> I think rana's stat will stay there and ash will go on.....

For Ashraful its "may be" for TEST and "not sure" or "may be not" for ONE DAY.

<i>
<b>Ashraful TEST</b>
First 25 Innings: Total Runs: 493, Average:20.54
Next 24 Innings: Total Runs: 668, Average: 30.36
Overall 49 Innings, Total Runs: 1161 Runs, Average: 25.24

<b>Ashraful ONE DAY</b>
First 25 Innings: Total Runs: 277, Average:16.39
Next 22 Innings: Total Runs: 382, Average: 17.36
Overall 47 Innings, Total Runs: 759 Runs, Average: 16.87
</i>

For Rana its 'who knows' because of insufficiant data to predict a statistically significant future trend.


Edited on, March 28, 2005, 9:01 PM GMT, by Fazal.

pagol-chagol
March 28, 2005, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by Fazal
<b>Ashraful TEST</b>
First 25 Innings: Total Runs: 493, Average:20.54
Next 24 Innings: Total Runs: 668, Average: 30.36
Overall 49 Innings, Total Runs: 1161 Runs, Average: 25.24


Some numbers are stat busters. Its like if 9 of us are FOKIR and one of us is a millionaire the average will look good. If you take out the otherworldly experience of the 159* against India, his stats are virtually identical in the two halves of his test career.

Fazal
March 28, 2005, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by pagol-chagol
Some numbers are stat busters. Its like if 9 of us are FOKIR and one of us is a millionaire the average will look good. If you take out the otherworldly experience of the 159* against India, his stats are virtually identical in the two halves of his test career.

True. I thought about that. I didn't want to burst the bubble(of hope) for Ash fans completely.:P



Edited on, March 28, 2005, 9:11 PM GMT, by Fazal.

pagol-chagol
March 28, 2005, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by Beamer
One thing that the stats will never tell you is the certain impact of a player in that team. To me, any comparison between Rana and Ashraful fall in that category. Ashraful, already is an indespensible componet of our batting order non-withstanding his consistency issues. While Rana is a fringe player doing bits here and there and won't command any particular attention from the opposition. His grit is admirable but even his most ardent supporter has to admit that most the runs he scored so far, has come in losing situations. He just delayed the inevitable outcome of the match. Nothing more. Comparing him with Ash is out of context. You compare Ash with Rajin, Aftab, Bashar etc...not Rana. Its irrelevant.

I would like you to show Ashraful or anyone's stats that hasn't come in a losing situation.:duh:

Again, I am not comparing their talent, style or potential.

I am just comparing the stats so far.

Fazal
March 28, 2005, 04:10 PM
Edited on, March 28, 2005, 9:10 PM GMT, by Fazal.
Reason: Ops!

Beamer
March 28, 2005, 05:08 PM
If you want to analyze like that, then, Yes, no one has played a match winning knock so far for us. You can say that Mashud against WI and Nafis against Zim played two of our best match savings innings. Ash tried his best to avoid the follow on against Ind. Also, he played some innings of relevance in his 98 against Zim, 81 against WI. I am not sure if you saw when I wrote that consistency non-withstanding ! The matter of the fact remains, comparing Rana with Ashraful is an insult to Ashraful, as batting alone they are is no comparison, no matter how many stats you dig out. I dare Rana to take on a menacing Pathan and dispatch him over midwkt for an effortless six, or stepping out and hit Kumble for six over the cover! I urge some of the people to belive their eyes and observe the game itself rather than doing some meaningless comparison between Ash and Rana with some garbage stats. Or else be stuck with worshipping mediocore players.

amra_korbo_joy
March 28, 2005, 05:19 PM
Beamer:
You are absolutely correct.

Fazal
March 28, 2005, 05:21 PM
:clap::clap: When stat doesn't support the claim or it becomes inconvenience, suddenly it becomes garbage.

I may enjoy Ash's batting if/when he feels like he need to do some batting; however at the end of the day I will always appreciate more for a over achiever but less talented player than a super talented under achiever. To me there is no point worshipping under achieving players.

If comparing Rana with Ashraful is an insult to Ashraful, then so be it. Thereís no one but Ash himself to blame for that. He is supposed to be the most talented batsman in Bangladesh team. However after playing 49 test innings, his ave is 25.24. Now some people ignore the fact/stat and say its garbage if they want. But the fact doesn't change, you can duck but you cannot hide from stat.

Edited on, March 28, 2005, 10:40 PM GMT, by Fazal.

Beamer
March 28, 2005, 05:41 PM
Nobody is worshipping Ash! I am not for the one starting a thread comparing apples and oranges. In this case, the comparison is unfair and the stat is indeed garbage..

Fazal
March 28, 2005, 05:42 PM
Originally posted by Beamer
Nobody is worshipping Ash! I am not for the one starting a thread comparing apples and oranges. In this case, the comparison is unfair and the stat is indeed garbage..

And nobody is worshiping Rana;) (just recognizing his contribution)


In terms of comparing apples and oranges. may be you are right. who knows. To me Rana's future is still too early to tell. His career may follow Rafique's path or he may vanish for ever after few more tries.




Edited on, March 29, 2005, 12:26 AM GMT, by Fazal.

Beamer
March 28, 2005, 05:51 PM
ok..bhai..enough of this. I am losing energy by repeating things.

If rana gets picked and does well, no one will be happier than me, after all, it benefits our team.

Ashraful is inconsistent. I was terribly dissapointed with him after the Zim series. He should have obliterated Chigumbura and co after the India series. He has dismantled much better opposition before and it was a big dissapointment. But we are not talking about that. We are comparing batsman Ashraful and batsman Rana. Thats unfair to both. Simple as that...

cricket_pagla
March 28, 2005, 07:25 PM
Rana:up:
Ashraful :down:
:E

pagol-chagol
March 28, 2005, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by Beamer
If you want to analyze like that, then, Yes, no one has played a match winning knock so far for us. You can say that Mashud against WI and Nafis against Zim played two of our best match savings innings. Ash tried his best to avoid the follow on against Ind. Also, he played some innings of relevance in his 98 against Zim, 81 against WI. I am not sure if you saw when I wrote that consistency non-withstanding ! The matter of the fact remains, comparing Rana with Ashraful is an insult to Ashraful, as batting alone they are is no comparison, no matter how many stats you dig out. I dare Rana to take on a menacing Pathan and dispatch him over midwkt for an effortless six, or stepping out and hit Kumble for six over the cover! I urge some of the people to belive their eyes and observe the game itself rather than doing some meaningless comparison between Ash and Rana with some garbage stats. Or else be stuck with worshipping mediocore players.

I never argued about their abilities. Please compare their stats in this thread. Not who they are or how beautiful they are or how much potential they have. Thats just repeatations of what we have discussed about in countless other threads.

PoorFan
March 28, 2005, 09:06 PM
This stat simply shows Ashraful's inability to perform according to his potential.
On the other hand Rana deserve full credit for his determination and
commitment to perform better than expectation.
May be Rana knows himself and his limitations, which Ashraful don't.
And that make the difference between their interesting stat.

Sham
March 28, 2005, 11:39 PM
Pagol chagol, what is there to compare between Rana and Ashraful in terms of their stats? You have provided them and the fact that Rana is statistically superior is plain for all to see? How can you argue with that? The only way to debate the issue is by putting the stats to one side and arguing about the subjective analysis that each of us have done of our players. If you are not willing to tolerate that, what is the point of this thread exactly and why should anyone reply? The statistical comparison is there for all to see and there is no way to refute it other than by talking about non-statistical matters!

Fazal, I have a question for you. Very simple, only requires a one word answer. If there was one batting spot open in our team and you had to pick between Ashraful and Rana, who would you pick?

Fazal
March 28, 2005, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by Sham
Fazal, I have a question for you. Very simple, only requires a one word answer. If there was one batting spot open in our team and you had to pick between Ashraful and Rana, who would you pick?

Sorry I don't have a one word answer. Because I think itís important for me to explain what I think and why I think. If you still want to know the long answer then, here it is:

If I need to select for next series the answer is Ashraful (sorry diehard Rana fans). Why? Because Rana is still unknown commodity. However, at present I have more respect for Rana than Ashraful.

However if I need to select one year from now? I am not sure. My expectation from Ashraful is reducing series by series. And Rana is gaining my respect more and more. Both are young players (of similar age). However in terms of their playing age, Rana is a rookie compared to Ash. Therefore there is a chance for Rana to improvise further. For Ashraful, I am not so sure.

fwullah
March 29, 2005, 03:54 AM
I wonder if Ashraful will try to be determined to play better than he has done so far after (if) he ever watches this thread.

pagol-chagol
March 29, 2005, 10:02 AM
Sham,

My first post on this thread is not really about Ashraful. I would take Ashraful any day over Rana. The stats have a subliminal message. This is not about waking Ashraful up.

I just wanted to give the Rana lovers and haters a good starting point before they argue about the importance of Rana. Actually Rana haters will have little left to say after looking at these numbers and may be all these Rana hating will stop for a while (wishful thinking).

Comparing Ashraful to any BD batsman? Come on. Ashraful has better in-control percentage than Kallis, Dravid, Tendulkar, Inzamam and most of those legends.

But, lets stop Rana bashing. Rana is not LUCKY to be in BD team. He EARNED it.

Red Cherry
March 29, 2005, 10:18 AM
it is too early to make such comparison to be fair on both of them. Undoubtebly Ash is a better prospect than Rana.........make no mistake about it. It shows statistics doesn't always give you the right picture

mahbubH
March 29, 2005, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by pagol-chagol
Unbelievable Batting Average Stats
----------------------------------
Rana
TESTS
25.70
--------------------------------------------------------
Ashraful
TESTS
25.23
------------------------------------
So the sample size is huge.

What do you think?

Sample size is not huge. Rana played only 6 tests.

As Rana started playing tests from Zimbabwe tour, if you really want to compare his batting performance with Ash's one you should consider Ash's data for the same time slot too.

During this time Rana played 6 tests and Ash played 10 tests.

Avg : Ash = 31.61 and Rana 25.70 which do not show Rana did better than Ash during this time.

Rubu
March 29, 2005, 11:20 AM
once again, there is no point comparing this two. they are two different type of players and have completely different roles.

but if you wanna do it anyway, you can choose to do it whatever way the stats look in favore for you. SFBD's way of doing the stat has its own flaw as well. ash's average is vastly improved by one 158*. take it out and there is nothing left. in terms of consistancy, rana did better even in that period of time. but again, it does not matter, we need both at two different places. comparison does not work.

pagol-chagol
March 29, 2005, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by sports_fan_bd
Originally posted by pagol-chagol
Unbelievable Batting Average Stats
----------------------------------
Rana
TESTS
25.70
--------------------------------------------------------
Ashraful
TESTS
25.23
------------------------------------
So the sample size is huge.

What do you think?

Sample size is not huge. Rana played only 6 tests.

As Rana started playing tests from Zimbabwe tour, if you really want to compare his batting performance with Ash's one you should consider Ash's data for the same time slot too.

During this time Rana played 6 tests and Ash played 10 tests.

Avg : Ash = 31.61 and Rana 25.70 which do not show Rana did better than Ash during this time.

I know, Ash can retire today with that 159* in his bank account. He can use that to open his own cricket academy and kids will line up to learn.

That inning is like a black hole that can skew lights passing by it.

6 tests/12 innings by itself looks small but its big enough when you see the trend is the same in every form of the game.

Then again Rana is no Ashraful.

The point I would like to make is:

Rana is pretty close to Masud Rana and far better than Sohel Rana as some want to make him to be.

Fazal
March 29, 2005, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by pagol-chagol
Rana is pretty close to Masud Rana and far better than Sohel Rana as some want to make him to be.

No way Rana is close to Masud Rana. Masud Rana is supposed to be the good looking stud, which Rana is not.

Now who is Sohel Rana? That bald ugly looking actor? Now... Rana is far better looking than Sohel Rana... no question about that.

mahbubH
March 29, 2005, 01:13 PM
but if you wanna do it anyway, you can choose to do it whatever way the stats look in favore for you. SFBD's way of doing the stat has its own flaw as well. ash's average is vastly improved by one 158*. take it out and there is nothing left.

Good point.

Lets drop one innings from each of them (you have exclude all of the scores sequentially). My calculation shows Ash is better than Rana. In my last post there was a little error in Ash's average (I thought 158, actually it was 158*).

pagol-chagol
March 29, 2005, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by sports_fan_bd

but if you wanna do it anyway, you can choose to do it whatever way the stats look in favore for you. SFBD's way of doing the stat has its own flaw as well. ash's average is vastly improved by one 158*. take it out and there is nothing left.

Good point.

Lets drop one innings from each of them (you have exclude all of the scores sequentially). My calculation shows Ash is better than Rana. In my last post there was a little error in Ash's average (I thought 158, actually it was 158*).

The point is not who is better. There is no controvercy on that. We worship Ashraful. The point is that we can even compare their stats is a slap on the face of all the Rana haters.

Tokai
March 29, 2005, 01:48 PM
the actual point is, there is no point in all these.

Sham
March 30, 2005, 04:11 AM
Well, I think I speak for all Rana haters when I say that we are well aware of his stats! And also, I agree that over a long enough period of time, the stats tell you a lot. However, in cricket especially, its a flawed aproach to judge players by their stats. Langer averages far less than Hayden, but I think most would agree that Langer plays the more crucial innings and in more difficult circumstances while Hayden is happy plundering 380s against Zimbabwe.

There is a reason that I keep asking the Rana lovers if they have ever seen him play or not. Its not because I am all that interested in how much cricket they watch or which players they have seen. But the truth of the matter is, if you are fighting in favour of a player you have never seen play, I don't think you are in a position argue! Its like me trying to argue about Golam Rahman or Wascoroni against someone who has seen them play.

I'll get to my point. I've seen Rana play, both when he has scored some runs and when he got the pair in the second Test against India. I admire his guts and courage. I think even Ashraful can learn a thing or two from Rana about how to value your wicket and not give it to the other side on a silver platter. Rana is a great fighter and he really gives it his all when the team is in trouble. I've never denied it. And in the process, he has been quite consistent with his 30s to have a Test average of 25. But, it still doesnt make him a batsman in my eye! I will back Rana to score runs down the order everytime because I think he will play his heart out. But it still doesnt mean that I think he should occupy the place of a batsman. Having an average of 25 doesn't make you a batsman automatically.

He is still a bowler who can bat in my opinion. I think this is backed up by the fact that in 28 international innings, he has only 2 50s and 6 not out scores. He plays a lot of fighting knocks of around 30, something you would expect from bowlers who can bat, but is that the sort of player you want batting in the top six?

Pagol Chagol, you may not be comparing Ash with Rana, but there are others who are and I have to say, they have no idea what they are talking about. Beamer is right, it is a total insult. Its one thing to respect Rana more because he is an untalented over achiever over Ashraful who is a talented under achiever. Respect Rana all you want, but to compare them as batsmen and to suggest that Rana might be better is a farce!

Edited on, March 30, 2005, 11:03 AM GMT, by Sham.

bourny3
March 30, 2005, 05:40 AM
Interesting stats.

Beamer
March 30, 2005, 03:34 PM
Sham, you are generous in bringin the Langer-hayden analogy to get your point across. I won't consider that as both are regular openers for Australia. Rana and Ashraful are not in the same plain as hayden and Langer are. And I won't afford the Ranaists that simple gratification of self-congratulations by mentioning and analysing their comparable stats on a same plain. Kumble just outdid Ganguly in the recent series and both scored at a simmilar avg. in some other recent series. Nobody is comparing Ganguly and Kumble. Are they? No. because it is stupid and Yes, some are, the stupid morons.

mahbubH
March 30, 2005, 04:01 PM
Kumble just outdid Ganguly in the recent series and both scored at a simmilar avg. in some other recent series. Nobody is comparing Ganguly and Kumble. Are they? No. because it is stupid and Yes, some are, the stupid morons.

I am posting this without reading the whole thing... this a comparison between Dada and Kumble (I can see that from the table).
(Link here) (http://in.rediff.com/cricket/2005/mar/29guest.htm)

Edited on, March 30, 2005, 9:02 PM GMT, by sports_fan_bd.

RazabQ
March 30, 2005, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by Beamer
. because it is stupid and Yes, some are, the stupid morons.

easy there Beamer! Go take a spin in your 3series or 5 series. I guarantee you'll come back in a better frame of mind. :)

Fazal
March 30, 2005, 06:44 PM
Originally posted by razabq
Go take a spin in your 3series or 5 series. I guarantee you'll come back in a better frame of mind.

Wait a minute. I thought DUI is a serious crime in USA.:-/

Edited on, March 30, 2005, 11:45 PM GMT, by Fazal.

Beamer
March 30, 2005, 09:48 PM
razabq
Sorry for using the term moron, though wasn't meant for anyone in this forum. I was simply referring to a few a writers and analyists who were drawing comparison between Kumble and Gangu. The idea is stupid. So is comparing Ash and Rana.
No hard feelings. Right about takin a spin and calming your brain! Right tonic sometimes...