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Ovi Khan
March 31, 2005, 08:12 PM
Who is the best spinner in the world? Everybody's thoughts are different. What do you think?

Akib
March 31, 2005, 08:33 PM
Well you spelled Murali's name wrong.

I think it is Warne. Murali is second with Kumble third.
The rest are also really well.

A special mention goes to Vettori. He is a very good bowler. His stats would be better if he had more support on his team.

couger
March 31, 2005, 08:38 PM
There we go again. Exactly how many polls did we do in this stuff?

Rubayed
March 31, 2005, 10:32 PM
I would have to go with Warne, although Murali is terrific too. I also think Danish Kaneria should have been there in the poll since Rafique is in it.

Spitfire_x86
April 1, 2005, 06:20 AM
IMO, Murali's the best

AsifTheManRahman
April 1, 2005, 11:19 AM
he didn't spell it wrong. that's how murali likes it spelt. anyways, low quality poll imo - it's hard to compare an sla to a leggie or an offie to any of them. putting ashley giles in was also a joke.

al
April 1, 2005, 01:14 PM
murali and vettori. Then comes Danish and Rafique

bdmoderator
April 2, 2005, 08:37 AM
Mohammed Rafique.

Ovi Khan
April 2, 2005, 06:48 PM
Originally posted by AsifTheManRahman
he didn't spell it wrong. that's how murali likes it spelt. anyways, low quality poll imo - it's hard to compare an sla to a leggie or an offie to any of them. putting ashley giles in was also a joke.
I am talking about "SPINNERS" not a leggie or an offie. ;)

Ovi Khan
April 7, 2005, 04:55 PM
Hmm... There are many Warny fans in the BC forum.

areyoushpongled?
May 28, 2005, 06:03 PM
It can only be between Murali and Warne. I say the former, because:

Points in Favour of Murali

1) Warne has failed dismally against the best players of spin – India (43 wickets at 47.18). Murali has done far better against them (51 wickets at 32.94).

2) Murali has a better average, strike rate, economy rate, and takes more wickets per match than Warne; despite the fact that Warne has not had to play against the world's best team.

3) Murali has a better record against all countries, except South Africa and Pakistan.

4) Murali is far more consistent. Warne has been known to be hammered occasionally and although Murali has previously been nullified to a degree, he is very rarely hit around the park.

Warne
45 7 150 1 3.33 3rd Test v Ind in Aus 1991/92 at Sydney
30 7 122 1 4.07 1st Test v Ind in Ind 1997/98 at Chennai
42 4 147 0 3.50 2nd Test v Ind in Ind 1997/98 at Kolkata
34 3 152 1 4.47 2nd Test v Ind in Ind 2000/01 at Kolkata
42 7 140 2 3.33 3rd Test v Ind in Ind 2000/01 at Chennai
30 6 108 2 3.60 3rd Test v SA in SA 2001/02 at Durban
38 7 129 3 3.39 2nd Test v SL in Aus 2004 at Cairns
32 4 115 2 3.59 1st Test v Ind in Ind 2004/2005 at Nagpur

Murali
36 6 123 1 3.42 1 L 1st Test v Pak in SL 1994 at Colombo
54 3 224 2 4.15 2 L 1st Test v Aus in Aus 1995/96 at Perth
33 6 136 0 4.12 1 L 1st Test v NZ in NZ 1996/97 at Dunedin

5) Warne is part of a stronger bowling attack. If Warne was of equal ability to Murali he would take less wickets per match than Murali (because there are four good bowlers competing for wickets), but would have a lower average and strike rate (because greater pressure is put on the batsman by bowlers at the other end). For an example of this take two great fast bowlers, Marshall and Hadlee - Marshall having a better average because the high class West Indian bowlers put greater pressure on the batsmen, but Hadlee took more wickets per match because there was less competition for them. Same with Lindwall vs Bedser, Ambrose vs Akram, Laker vs Tayfield, and many, many others. Murali takes more wickets per match and has a lower average and strike rate.

6) A high proportion of Warne's test wickets are numbers 10 and 11 in the batting order; Murali does well against all batting positions. When they were both on 527 wickets, Warne had taken the wickets of batsmen 8-11 190 times, Murali had done it 162 times - a significant difference of 17%. And we all know it is far more valuable to be able to defeat players of high ability, because they can really make you suffer. Tailenders will usually get out sooner rather than later anyway, and very rarely turn a match on its head (with the bat anyway). What’s the point in Warne taking the wickets of Nehra or Walsh game after game, if he cannot trouble Tendulkar or Lara?

7) Although Warne has been less effective since his shoulder injury, even at his peak (1993-97) he was not as good as Murali has been this century.

Mat O M R W Ave Best 5wi 10w SR Econ
Murali 2000-2003 37 2347.3 684 4990 258 19.34 9-51 22 10 54.5 2.13
Warne 1993-97 57 2876.5 938 6457 277 23.31 8-71 11 3 62.3 2.24

8) Murali on top form is more devastating than Warne on top form.

Best innings:

9/51 M Muralitharan v Zimbabwe at Kandy, 2nd Test, 2001/02 [1583]
9/65 M Muralitharan v England at The Oval, Only Test, 1998 [1423]
8/71 SK Warne v England at Brisbane, 1st Test, 1994/95
8/87 M Muralitharan v India at Colombo (SSC), 3rd Test, 2001 [1559]

Best Series:

Murali
Sri Lanka in Pakistan, 1999/00 [Series]
3 213.1 516 26 6/71 19.84 2.42 49.1 1 1
South Africa in Sri Lanka, 2000 [Series]
3 227.4 480 26 7/84 18.46 2.10 52.5 3 1
Zimbabwe in Sri Lanka, 2001/02 [Series]
3 203.1 294 30 9/51 9.80 1.44 40.6 2 1
England in Sri Lanka, 2003/04 [Series]
3 231.4 320 26 7/46 12.30 1.38 53.4 1 1
Australia in Sri Lanka, 2003/04 [Series]
3 209.1 649 28 6/59 23.17 3.10 44.8 4 1

Warne
The Ashes (Aus/Eng) in England, 1993 [Series]
6 439.5 877 34 5/82 25.79 1.99 77.6 1 0
The Ashes (Aus/Eng) in Australia, 1994/95 [Series]
5 256.1 549 27 8/71 20.33 2.14 56.9 2 1
The Ashes (Aus/Eng) in England, 1997 [Series]
6 237.1 577 24 6/48 24.04 2.43 59.2 1 0
The Ashes (Aus/Eng) in England, 2001 [Series]
5 195.2 580 31 7/165 18.70 2.96 37.8 3 1
Australia v Pakistan Test Series in Sri Lanka/U.A.E., 2002/03 [Series]
3 124 342 27 7/94 12.66 2.75 27.5 2 1
Australia in Sri Lanka, 2003/04 [Series]
3 168 521 26 5/43 20.03 3.10 38.7 4 2

9) You could take a look at their respective records in the English county championship (note Murali has played in the first division and Warne the second, and Murali was by far the star bowler in every season he played, while several Hampshire bowlers took wickets more cheaply than Warne in both his seasons):

Mat O M R W Ave Best 5wi 10w SR Econ
Murali 19 1049.1 322 2195 149 14.73 7-39 17 6 42.2 2.09
Warne 24 962.5 259 2682 113 23.73 6-34 8 0 52.7 2.69

10) One reason why Warne is rated so highly is Gatting’s reaction to the so called “ball of the century.” The shock that that ball sent through the cricketing world was immense because it was thought no one else could bowl that delivery. Actually, Warne was not the only one to bowl such a delivery in recent years, Abdul Qadir had bowled the same delivery a few years earlier, it just wasn’t highlighted at the time because it wasn't on such a big stage. Murali bowled similar balls which were every bit as good to both Sadgapan Ramesh and Mark Butcher a few years ago.

Warne constantly gets so many accolades/awards that he doesn't deserve, purely through a God like reputation galvanised by ill educated media hype. In truth, his career has been highly inconsistent, he has constantly failed against the best, benefited from the opportunity to nail tails after McGrath and co have dismissed the better batsmen, and his overall career figures fall short of the truely great category.

Points in Favour of Warne

1) Has much greater competition for wickets, yet has still managed to take nearly 600!

2) Has not had the opportunity to destroy Zimbabwe and Bangladesh (sorry!). Murali has taken over 100 wickets against these teams while Warne has played a combined total of 2 matches against them.

3) Has a better average and strike rate in Sri Lanka than Murali.

4) Recognised by the (biased) Anglo-Australian media as the best spinner of all times.

5) He has more variation than Murali.

6) He has a (marginally) better record away from home than Murali.

7) Bowls on less turning wickets than Murali

Banglatiger84
May 29, 2005, 07:42 AM
I think Muralitharan is better. As much as I hate us 3rd world people whining and complaining about the west, I do feel the australian/english media dont like him simply because he isnt white, and is competing against a blue-eyed good 'ole australian boy

Edited on, May 29, 2005, 12:43 PM GMT, by Banglatiger84.

Akib
May 29, 2005, 08:43 AM
Originally posted by Banglatiger84
I think Muralitharan is better. As much as I hate us 3rd world people whining and complaining about the west, I do feel the australian/english media dont like him simply because he isnt white, and is competing against a blue-eyed good 'ole australian boy

Edited on, May 29, 2005, 12:43 PM GMT, by Banglatiger84.

I don't think Warne is "good-'ole".

Locutus
June 2, 2005, 05:57 PM
I am very surprised not to see Saqlain Mustaque in that list!

oracle
June 2, 2005, 06:00 PM
I am very surprised not to see Saqlain Mustaque in that list!


Possibly because you might be slightly over the median age of forum members here and that half of the folks probably don't know who you are referring to.:)

Akib
June 2, 2005, 06:24 PM
I agree with Logen. Mustaq should be there. He is a really good spinner. Wonder why he isnt in the Pakistani team. He could back up Kaneria really well.

Dawah
June 6, 2005, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by aka
I agree with Logen. Mustaq should be there. He is a really good spinner. Wonder why he isnt in the Pakistani team. He could back up Kaneria really well.

He got injured, and while he was out of cricket for injury, he went in Tabligh for 4 month (3 chilla). He finished his time and came back with beard like Saeed Anwar, who also has spent 4 months in Tabligh.

Saeed Anwar with beard:
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39404000/jpg/_39404957_anwar203.jpg

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38780000/jpg/_38780649_anwarbod203.jpg

Saqlain Mustaq with beard:

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40165000/jpg/_40165897_saqlain203.jpg

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41170000/jpg/_41170383_saqlain203.jpg

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40803000/jpg/_40803851_saqlain203.jpg

After Saqlain came back from Tabligh, Pak selectors got worried just like they were worried about Saeed Anwer. They though Saqlain will get other players influenced and if their players become all pious and "tablighi", they won't be as efficient and professional, since Tabligh work it self demands a lot of time and commitment. So, they decide not to select Saqlain for the time being.

it could change, though..... Since Inzamam-ul-Haq is also heading to the same direction :bravo:
After he spends time in tabligh, he will stop fighting over "who is the boss". That should make Pak Cricket Boss happy.

What the Pak selectors fail to understand, doing Deen or doing the work of Tabligh is not an obstacle in earning a living. Islam is balanced, and work of Deen (tabligh) advocates balance in life. Playing Pro-Cricket is living for those pak cricketers and in Islam, halal earning is rewarding. In fact, these "pious" cricketers won't go to night clubs while on tour and get drunk, sleep around and won't take bribes. They will perform in consistent manner. Saeed Anwar hit a century against India on last world cup with his long beard proves it while most of their bats man including Inzi failed.

Other Pak cricketer who are involved with tabligh include legendary Pak spinner Abul Kadir.


Edited on, June 6, 2005, 5:57 PM GMT, by dawah.tabligh.

Locutus
June 7, 2005, 08:24 AM
What is TABLIGH!? Is that a place?

cricfanz
June 7, 2005, 08:27 AM
heyyy, I'm 16 and I know who saqlain mushtaq is..

Dawah
June 7, 2005, 09:34 AM
Originally posted by Logen
What is TABLIGH!? Is that a place?

Is that a sarcasm? There are people on earth that do not know what is Tabligh :-/

Tabligh is the name of an effort of building ones own Iman and Ammal (Islamic faith and correct practices) by calling others to Islam and its core practices. When Muslims go out in Jamat with Tabligh, they go out to call people towards Allah. But, by doing so, they actually make themselves better Muslims. The methods and ways of doing the work of tabligh have been derived from the lives of Prophet Mohammed(saw) and Sahabah(ra) [Companions of Prophet Mohammed saw ] .

Work of “dawah” is Fardh on Muslims (calling people towards Allah.). Tabligh is not Fardh, tabligh is actually a way of executing the responsibilities of “dawah”.

Non-Muslims call it “Muslim Missionaries” whose primary goal is to work to bring complete Islam in the lives of Muslims. It is not affiliated with any political parties, and those who go out in jamat (or go out in tabligh or going out in the path of Allah, fisabilillah) do so by spending their own money and time. Tabligh is also like a school, it has certain recommendation or training periods. If a Muslim completes these “training” periods, it is hoped that he will be able to practice Islam much more than before. Some of their “training” periods are 4 months at least once in a life time to learn the work (like 1 semester at school), 40 days a year, 3 days a month.

During these time while Muslims are in Jamat, they make itteqaf in Masjids, pray 5 times salat together in Jamat, learn from the scholars, read books of Hadith, engage in contemplation of the purpose why we have been sent on earth, Dhikir (remembers Allah), read a lot of Quran, many Muslim complete reciting Quran within 40 days, etc. Basically, they engage in Aamal (Islamic practices).

These Pakistani player where far away from deen. But by going out in the path of Allah, they have changed their life willingly. As we all know, it is hard to act on the orders of Allah. Tabligh makes it easy, so easy, the worst of Muslim can become the best of Muslim (Allah willing!) if he sincerely makes effort while in Jamat.

You could read this post on differences of Tabligh with Political movement of Jamaiti Islami.


http://www.banglacricket.com/alochona/viewthread.php?tid=11348

Edited on, June 7, 2005, 4:05 PM GMT, by dawah.tabligh.

Locutus
June 7, 2005, 10:01 AM
Thanks man! I guess I should know that! I am muslim and I didn't know that! Shame on me!

Dawah
June 7, 2005, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by Logen
Thanks man! I guess I should know that! I am muslim and I didn't know that! Shame on me!

A good start :bravo: